Changes have killed us Wizards.....

[Merovingian]

<DIV>Level 50 Wizard here.  On test server today.  Decided to solo a few of the mobs I normally do for City Writs, etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First went to Feerott to fight some easy 37-39 lvl group mobs.  Thought i would take it slow.  Didn't have a problem.  A couple times it was a little to close for comfort, but by and large, it was just fine.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I then decided to solo lvl 42(grouped) Bighorn sheep.   Forget-about-it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My Ring of Cold wouldn't root it 3 out of 4 times.  My Ring of Cold normally roots everytime.  Not now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My Truss only rooted about 50% of the time and was way too short.  Why?  Well, if they break root or timer runs out, they attack and never hardly ever miss you.  Like instant death.  Parry skill is gone.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A couple hits on my lvl 50 Wizard and I was eating snow.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tried at least 30 mobs and killed maybe 5.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Before, I was 100% successful.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I then tried some lvl 44 grouped Glacial Constructs.  Now, normally these are difficult for me.  I kill about half of them I try to solo.  But not now.  Not even close.  DEATH 100%!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They hit way to hard for us and they never miss.   Rooted them seems harder than before, and just doesn't last long enough.  They break out of it eventually and when they do.......Its Over!   Alot of classes can solo them, and the funny thing is, those classes wont really be effected by these changes as much as us Wizards, so it is probably fair to say, they will continue to solo them after the patch for City Writs, loot, etc.  But we sure won't.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My Truss never did work on a lvl 44 Ice Frieght or lvl 48 Lookout.  Fought 6-8 of them and they resisted Truss and RoCold everytime.    Without Ice Comet, it was somewhat difficult to win against a lvl 48 solo mob.  Sounds crazy, but they hit us Wizards every stinking time.  And I don't even think u can use Frozen manicles against a lvl 40+ mob anymore.  I could use it against about anything before.  But not now.  Seems to get resisted 100% of the time against 40+ mobs.    </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So in Summary..........we get hit almost everytime.  Our roots work less often.  Get resisted more.  More death.   More aggravation.  Less fun for Wizards.  Less enjoyment.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> But, hey, at least we get an icon now telling us when the timer is about to run out.  Of course, it would help if they actually rooted the mob occassionally so we could see it.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Put it this way, if you are not able to root the mob, ...............RUN!!!!!!!!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We can still solo individual mobs, but against any group mob 40+ its pretty much death unless you can root them sucessfully everytime.   So.....doing City Writs solo is now over.    At least Wizards will need to get a group to complete city writs, unlike other classes who can still solo lvl 40+ group mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Good news, Protoflame seems to be fixed again.  But still no spell description like every other class has.  ( I spoke to soon....will test it again in a few hours.  Just used it again and didnt think it worked this time.  Will edit this part again later.) (Sorry). </DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Edit:  Oh and by the way, I honestly think our fizzle rates have went up.  After my RoCold would run out, I would attempt to cast Truss since the RoC timer is of course still running,........anyway, seemed that I fizzled Truss like two-thirds of the time.   The sad thing is, those few seconds are precious for Wizards now.  They can mean the difference between life or death. </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by MerovingianII on <span class=date_text>04-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:15 PM</span>

[Eadric]

This is ridiculous SOE! <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If wizards/warlocks (I'm assuming they screwed that up as well) cannot root effectively and they've made them extra-paper-thin there is absolutly no way for these classes to solo.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Give SOE's track record, I can just see the screams about this and it getting pushed to Live regardless. Then three months from now they will say, oops, we see we made an error.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/sigh</DIV><p>Message Edited by Eadric on <span class=date_text>04-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:34 PM</span>

[Tinaran]

<DIV>Ah man... This just ruined my day</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Daran]

<div></div>Edited on account of my inability to read.....sorry heading back to 1st grade now to get a refresher course. <div></div><p>Message Edited by DaranHB on <span class=date_text>04-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:46 PM</span>

[Telad]

Don't feel to bad, scouts are getting slammed big time to. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What needs to be done is for SOE to take update #7 delete it and then move on.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Teladar on <span class=date_text>04-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:03 PM</span>

[armus5]

At least you have dps. A necro doesn't have that and wont be getting it any time soon. We do one-third the damage you do and the pets are so weak I cant solo a grey ^^ seven levels below me. They kill the pet and now that I have no armor they kill me. Not to mention that the pet only hits 1 npc. If i even try a small group I get hit so much I can't get a spell off to save my life, literally. Now whos gonna want to group with someone who doesnt have crap for damage and can't take a hit? Can we say, experience debt waiting to happen?Oh yeah and that great promiss to fix us in LU7? Went up in black smoke as if from the Sistine Chapel.

[Kwoung]

Yeah the changes suxxor... but as plainly stated in the test patch notes, they are not final and will be adjusted numerous times before going live. Their first shot at it, sure does blow though. (40 Wiz)

[Miral]

<DIV>truth is we can't really give accurate feedback on this until the other half-*$%#&! of the update goes in... ie the mage and priest balancing... soo uh, hurry up and put that in already</DIV>

[Dracko]

<DIV>As A level 50 wizard I can tell you this..</DIV> <DIV>If they jack up my roots I QUIT.!  I solo 100% of the time now if im not raiding and with alot of skill and luck I am able to solo writs and some really hard mobs but nothing any tank class cant solo.</DIV> <DIV>If they jack my roots up im over this game for good plain and simple and I'm sure alot of casters feel this way. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I meen takeing parry away makes sence..fine we are not spost to get hit I can live with that but are roots are all we got to provent this....Take are roots away then what do we got man? nothing we are dead and we leave the game thats all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Sorano]

I am very disturbed to hear this. The patch notes give you the impression that they IMPROVED our roots, not nerfed them. This coupled with the parry nerf is going to mean serious trouble for wizzys. It's a sad state of affairs considering that the only reason we are getting a nerf to parry, is because they needed to reduce priest tanking, specifically templar tanking ability. They knew that if they took away parry from the priest classes and left mages alone, you would never hear the end of priests crying about it. SOE seriously need to rethink how they go about implementing this. If they are going to take away parry from mages, they better make dam sure that they actually give us roots that work. They have gone out of their way to introduce more solo content to the game, and yet in the very next instant gone and eliminated the solo ability of an entire archetype. Lets hope that SOE take note of this thread as feedback from a lvl 50 character must be absolute gold on test server.

[Suraklin]

/sigh...Every class I seem to get any enjoyment out of gets nerfed to hell in this game....first toon was a necro. They were screwed up from the get go and still haven't been fixed...next tried wizard and got nerfed when I got to 26( just really started playing wizard again and got it to 29 a couple days ago.) Then tried monk and bard at same time. I got monk to 20 the day of the agility nerf....my bard is still sitting at level 17. I haven't really tried any healer classes...got to 9 plus 216% capped xp....I was waiting for the priest balancing to decide what to try Mystic or Warden. Now sounds like Priests are gonna be screwed if this goes live. I'm amazed at how quickly SOE has run this game into the ground. Less than 6 months after you release it....well actually things started going downhill after LU #3. Took you like a year or more to screw up your other games from what I remember. /Applauds SOE's lack of vision. Hope I get beta for Vanguard once it opens.

[NinjaWi]

<P>/sigh :smileymad:</P> <P>I sure hope they decide not to f*** up mage classes like this, even tho they seem very determined to do so ...</P>

[Sebastien]

Let's not jump to conclusions.   First of all, it seems the intention of the patch was to make your roots more effective, not less.  So there is either a bug, or you had some really bad luck last night, or there was some other mechanics change that wasn't listed in the patch notes that had this side effect. Either way, it doesn't seem to have been the intention of the patch, so it is bug or coincidence, nothing more. As far as getting hit more often, that is what *this part* of the patch is about.  Getting hit more often.  Everyone is going to get hit more often, including you.  It's not a nerf to wizards, it is a change to the to-hit mechanics.  As Moorgard stated, this change will then be balanced by turning around and looking at the damage output of mobs. How much the mobs hit for will be downtiered based on the fact that they are hitting more often. Now you have a real shot at balancing avoidance v. mitigation tanking, as well as wards v. reactives v. HoT's. Please understand they are beginning a large series of changes that only make sense once you see the end result.  To decide that playing on Test isn't fun right now is really beside the point to be honest.  It is important for people not on Test to understand that these changes *will* result in everyone being hit more often, but that they are only a part of the overall change that will be made once SOE is done. It just feels rough right now because we are only testing the "bad" part of the changes without seeing the benefits of the "good" changes that will re-balance them. <div></div>

[Eadric]

<P>Merovingianll-</P> <P>Please tell me you did a /feedback on this in test as well.</P>

[TheC]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sebastien wrote:<BR>Let's not jump to conclusions.   First of all, it seems the intention of the patch was to make your roots more effective, not less.  So there is either a bug, or you had some really bad luck last night, or there was some other mechanics change that wasn't listed in the patch notes that had this side effect.<BR><BR>Either way, it doesn't seem to have been the intention of the patch, so it is bug or coincidence, nothing more.<BR><BR><BR>As far as getting hit more often, that is what *this part* of the patch is about.  Getting hit more often.  Everyone is going to get hit more often, including you.  It's not a nerf to wizards, it is a change to the to-hit mechanics.  As Moorgard stated, this change will then be balanced by turning around and looking at the damage output of mobs.<BR><BR>How much the mobs hit for will be downtiered based on the fact that they are hitting more often.<BR><BR>Now you have a real shot at balancing avoidance v. mitigation tanking, as well as wards v. reactives v. HoT's.<BR><BR><BR>Please understand they are beginning a large series of changes that only make sense once you see the end result.  To decide that playing on Test isn't fun right now is really beside the point to be honest.  It is important for people not on Test to understand that these changes *will* result in everyone being hit more often, but that they are only a part of the overall change that will be made once SOE is done.<BR><BR>It just feels rough right now because we are only testing the "bad" part of the changes without seeing the benefits of the "good" changes that will re-balance them.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I'm with you, I'm not going to jump to any conclusions till it's put to live with all the other changes.<BR>

[Eadric]

Sure. It is best to not jump to conclusions. However, the very purpose of a test server is to fix things <EM>before</EM> they go live. It just seems that a lot of what SOE is doing is inimical to the enjoyment of the players.

[Sebastien]

<div></div>That isn't what I mean..  the net result of these changes, when all is said and done, as I understand them is: mobs will hit more often, but not as hard. The problem with reading too much into this feedback right now is that you are only see the "hit more often" change, because SOE has not yet made any modifications to mob DPS.  So you don't have the "but not as hard" part. The net result from the solo and small group point of view, is that very little will change.  Maybe instead of getting hit once for 800 you get hit four times for 200.  Six of one, half dozen of the other.  But things will change from the group/heroic point of view, as well as the raid/epic point of view.  In those worlds, there is a sweetspot, where, with the right buffs and stats, you can take on content while it is green, and literally never be touched.  That is the situation these changes seek to address.  If you have never been in that situation, you don't have much to worry about.  If you intentionally utilize that situation when you play, then you have been busted and will soon be out of luck.  =) Anyway.. MERO, can we have your Avoidance and Mitigation numbers please, as well as your AGI?  =) <div></div><p>Message Edited by Sebastien on <span class=date_text>04-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:15 AM</span>

[Pessimist]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sebastien wrote:<BR> <P>Maybe instead of getting hit once for 800 you get hit four times for 200. <BR></P> <P>Message Edited by Sebastien on <SPAN class=date_text>04-15-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:15 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Ooopsie, I think you meant to put this in the tank thread, not the paper wearing girly caster thread.  If it was intended for here you may have written that instead of getting hit for 800 you get hit four times as hard for 3,200.  Ahh yes, that sounds right.<BR>

[Sebastien]

If you guys want to continue to ignore everything being said that is your prerogative. It's not my job to teach you how to do things like observe or think. =) The point, for the intentionally obtuse among us, is that MOB DPS WILL BE LOOKED AT ALSO, JUST NOT YET. "As part of this, we are also looking at the damage that NPCs do. After all, if NPCs can hit more often, we need to take a close look at what they're hitting for. And if NPC damage changes, it is a natural conclusion that we need to look at the efficiency of healing."  (<a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=43305#M43305" target=_blank>source</a>) So the plan, from the beginning, once again, is: (1) look at avoidance mechanics (result: mobs will hit more often) (2) look at mob dps (result: overall DPS felt by average solo or small group player should be similar to what it is now) (3) rebalance healing efficiencies based on new to-hit and damage figures You are only seeing part (1).  Trying to form any kind of conclusion about it, *especially* if you are not on the Test server actually experiencing the result of the changes, is dumb. <div></div>

[Eadric]

Sebastien, I see that you're trying to be objective and that is a good thing...really. However, this thread isn't really about mitigation and avoidance as a caster (at least not to me). It is about the nature of roots for sorcerers. Roots are quintessential to our ability to solo at all.

[Sebastien]

Roger that.. as far as roots go, the stated intention of the patch was to make them better, not worse.  If that is not the case, it is a bug. <div></div>

[Vel Ke]

<P>The mechanics of the test changes affect each class differently, that must be looked at as well.  For a melee class getting hit 4 times more often for 1/4 of the damage per hit probably does have minimal effect on thier ability in combat.  For a caster class it is huge.  Tha means 4 times the amount of interrupts while trying to get a spell off (ie the new improved root) inorder to stay alive.  Combine 4 times the amount of interrupts with new paper thin armor and old 3 second casting times on roots and the result is inevitably the same... dead caster after dead caster.  Especially during solo times.</P> <P> </P> <P>Prior to the patch that brought Wizards to a fun and playable class it used to be a frustrating click fest of fizzles, resists and interrupts just so we could produce well below average DPS.  Given the previous track record of the nerf bat, both in EQ1 and EQ2 (I played 6 years in EQ1), I agree with the concerns of the multiple posts on this forum.  We are looking at armor mitigation being reduced, parry skill being removed and mobs hitting much more frequently which will greatly impact the ability to cast a spell (especially a 3 second one).  A 35% mitigation with parry skill on 4 times the hits is quite a lot different than 10% with no parry skill and a 4 times the amount interrupt rate to contend with just to be able to funtion (ie get off a single spell to stay alive in combat).  Casters depend on being able to cast a spell to be funtional, Melee classes do not have to contend with fizzles and interrupts in order to create DPS.  Under the current proposed test changes, I fail to see a balance.  I fail to see an increase in the entertainment value of the game.  I do however see an overwhelming resentment from the players about this patch.  I fail to see SOEs logic in taking a balanced and fun to play repaired class and re-breaking it despite the overwhelming resentment from the players.</P>

[metalo]

I just wonder why on earth they gave Necros root. Only time i can keep a mob rooted as Necro is when it is grey but i dont suppose i have to root a grey mob since it will never agro me except those few situations of triggered mobs. <div></div>

[Anlari]

So are your roots working agaisnt non-group or heroic mobs?  From my understanding, roots will be more effective agaisnt solo mobs and less agaisnt heroic mobs.  One of the goals of this patch seems to be to make it impossible to solo a heroic encounter at all.  to make up for that, they added a ton of solo mobs and even replaced many heroic ones with solo mobs.  So it stands to reasons, stiffles, roots, stuns, and things like that will be much less effective agaisnt those group mobs.

[Daeanor]

I don't think the issue is so much the root (though it looks like that might have gotten bugged) as it is the mitigation. OK, no more parry for casters. Well, how about improving our shields then? Or give us a ward? Something is needed - it has always been too easy for a caster to die when the mob starts whacking on them, and the ability to parry once in a while made a big difference.  The fact is, we can't avoid getting whacked on all the time, and never could. If parry <b><i>really </i></b>had to go, then we need a replacement. I'm not entirely convinced it was necessary in the first place, not for casters. <div></div>

[mrfl]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sebastien wrote:<BR><BR>As far as getting hit more often, that is what *this part* of the patch is about.  Getting hit more often.  Everyone is going to get hit more often, including you.  It's not a nerf to wizards, it is a change to the to-hit mechanics.  As Moorgard stated, this change will then be balanced by turning around and looking at the damage output of mobs.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Sebastian, while I agree not to to jump to conclusions, please consider this. Lets assume for a moment that Wizards can take a few hits.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A wizard has no melee skill whatsoever, all damage output comes from spells. If Wizards are set to be hit more often, they will be interrupted from casting more often, and as such die a lot quicker. A wizard survives a solo encounter from killing quickly, interrupts confound their ability to do this. </DIV>

[Eadric]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anlarius wrote:<BR>So are your roots working agaisnt non-group or heroic mobs?  From my understanding, roots will be more effective agaisnt solo mobs and less agaisnt heroic mobs.  One of the goals of this patch seems to be to make it impossible to solo a heroic encounter at all.  to make up for that, they added a ton of solo mobs and even replaced many heroic ones with solo mobs.  So it stands to reasons, stiffles, roots, stuns, and things like that will be much less effective agaisnt those group mobs. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>If that is the goal, SOE <STRONG>needs</STRONG> to give something in return. Why? Because those roots provide crowd control in group situations. That is part of the mage's role when it comes to grouping, in fact. People may not always realize it (as they get caught up in the flash of nukes), but crowd control is a fundamental aspect of the mage character; some are just better at it than others (i.e. enchanters are the best).

[Anlari]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eadric wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anlarius wrote:<BR>So are your roots working agaisnt non-group or heroic mobs?  From my understanding, roots will be more effective agaisnt solo mobs and less agaisnt heroic mobs.  One of the goals of this patch seems to be to make it impossible to solo a heroic encounter at all.  to make up for that, they added a ton of solo mobs and even replaced many heroic ones with solo mobs.  So it stands to reasons, stiffles, roots, stuns, and things like that will be much less effective agaisnt those group mobs. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>If that is the goal, SOE <STRONG>needs</STRONG> to give something in return. Why? Because those roots provide crowd control in group situations. That is part of the mage's role when it comes to grouping, in fact. People may not always realize it (as they get caught up in the flash of nukes), but crowd control is a fundamental aspect of the mage character; some are just better at it than others (i.e. enchanters are the best).<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I do agree a lot of things need looking in to.  As far as the corcerer CC ability, they always said sorcerers CC by burning down mobs quickly, summoners have their pets, and enchanters have their mez lines.  Root should have been a viable means of CC, but they don't want it to make an effect means of soloing.  It appears to me they are trying to get back to their "if you can damage the mob, it can damage you" template they were striving for in the beginning.  I don't necessarily agree with this, just an impending doom kinda feeling.

[Fle]

<DIV>Well if your trying to solo group mobs then your going to get owned but no it must be that wizards are broken because you can't do it. Well your not supposed to be able to solo group mobs, you know that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When there grey and ya still get owned then thats a different matter which happens to me as an illusionist unless the mob is a lot lot lower in level.</DIV>

[Anlari]

I don't think anyone will be soloing group mobs unless they are a whole lot lower then them after the combat changes.  Of corse, there will be a lot less group mobs to worry about too.

[dadowar]

<DIV> <HR> Sebastian, while I agree not to to jump to conclusions, please consider this. Lets assume for a moment that Wizards can take a few hits. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A wizard has no melee skill whatsoever, all damage output comes from spells. If Wizards are set to be hit more often, they will be interrupted from casting more often, and as such die a lot quicker. A wizard survives a solo encounter from killing quickly, interrupts confound their ability to do this. </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></DIV> <P>There is a chance this change will improve our ability to solo tough mobs.  </P> <P>A mob can't hit you continuously, it has a "pseudo recast timer" also.  if I can survive a blow or 2 ,  and time my casting correctly, I may get a root off and have a chance to control the fight.  <EM> I need a root, a lot of nukes, another root, and a lot of nukes to kill an heroic mob.</EM></P> <P><EM></EM> </P> <P><EM>Dadowar</EM></P> <P><EM>Level 50 Wizard (NoDebt)</EM></P> <P><EM>Crushbone</EM></P>

[Cetanu]

<DIV>aren't you wizards powerful enough?</DIV> <DIV>I'm lvl 24 ranger, the max i hit is 200 with a back shot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've seen a lvl 26 wiz or whatever, doing 400-500 hits.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>now stop whinging!</DIV> <DIV>i had an equal amount of AGI to her INT</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Mapsha]

<DIV>What i think people don't understand is that Heroic mobs are NOT meant to solo, and they try to solo them anyways... can't expect it to be as easy as solo mobs people</DIV>

[Eadric]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cetanu12 wrote:<BR> <DIV>aren't you wizards powerful enough?</DIV> <DIV>I'm lvl 24 ranger, the max i hit is 200 with a back shot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've seen a lvl 26 wiz or whatever, doing 400-500 hits.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>now stop whinging!</DIV> <DIV>i had an equal amount of AGI to her INT<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Why should you do the same amount of damage as a wizard?</P> <P><FONT color=#6699ff>Do you have more health? [Yes]<BR>Do you have better armor? [Yes]<BR>Do you have better utility? [Yes]<BR>Do you tank better? [Yes]<BR>Should you do the same amount of damage? [No]<BR>Should you clearly do more damage than Fighters? [Yes]</FONT> <FONT face=Arial><SPAN><FONT color=#66ff00>← That is the crux of the problem with scouts.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></P>

[Diapause]

<P>Merov,</P> <P>Let me see if I get this right, you can no longer solo GROUPED mobs? And you are going to quit now? As a level 46 Templar, I have never been able to solo GREEN grouped mobs. I don't mean the ++ ones, or two mobs or +, I'm talking just no up arrow mobs more than two in a group. Ever. Period. </P> <P>I get the same writs you do and I had always had to go duo or with a larger group to get kills on mobs in EF, LS, or Feerrott. So do I feel for you if it is now harder to kill em 100% of the time as you suggested? No, not really. I failed 100% time. So maybe the perspective that you shouldn't have been able to solo those mobs in the first place is how you should be looking at that. I mean, dam, they are meant for a group, go figure.</P> <P>Diapause,</P> <P>Lvl46 Templar - Lavastorm</P>

[Lady Uaelr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eadric wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cetanu12 wrote:<BR> <DIV>aren't you wizards powerful enough?</DIV> <DIV>I'm lvl 24 ranger, the max i hit is 200 with a back shot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've seen a lvl 26 wiz or whatever, doing 400-500 hits.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>now stop whinging!</DIV> <DIV>i had an equal amount of AGI to her INT<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Why should you do the same amount of damage as a wizard?</P> <P><FONT color=#6699ff>Do you have more health? [Yes]<BR>Do you have better armor? [Yes]<BR>Do you have better utility? [Yes]<BR>Do you tank better? [Yes]<BR>Should you do the same amount of damage? [No]<BR>Should you clearly do more damage than Fighters? [Yes]</FONT> <FONT face=Arial><SPAN><FONT color=#66ff00>← That is the crux of the problem with scouts.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I am sorry Centanu but casters are meant to deal out high damage and not take damage. If I am in a group in Permafrost my main job is to assist on the main tank. The two most important people to me as a wizard is my tank and my healer.</P> <P>I will commence to debuff and slow a mob before I commence nuking always---I think of this as priming the mob to get the best effect out of my nukes. Once the mob has 4 or 5 DOTs active and going I start ice flame, HO, ball of flames (to start HO), immoliation in between, the westend to complete HO.</P> <P>But as soon as I see my tank or my healer losing power I cast a spell to slow the mob first then mana tranfers first to healer then to main tank so he does not lose aggro.</P> <P>Because I know and every good caster knows when the tank is gone-- it is down hill frome there.</P> <P>Without my tank I am dead.....if for whatever reason my tank is at 1.5 bubbles of health and my healer is having problems that is evac time no matter what.</P> <P>So tanks need to have high hitpoints and casters need to have high damage to help defeat the encounter. Casters are weak in melee and if any caster where to duel a fighter type if the correct spells are not cast any fighter will destroy us.</P> <P>Once a caster is interrupted there is no hope..not even to escape.</P> <P>So Cetanu12 please understand why casters are supposed to have more DPS. If we did not have high DPS what would be the purpose to have a caster in the group????</P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[missionarymarr]

Okay didn't I just see that they have raised the effectiveness of the channeling skill which I thought was supposed to allow a mage to have his spells not be interupted when being hit. Seems that they are looking at the results of these changes and doing what they can to balance them out.

[Lady Uaelr]

<DIV>Really, the channeling skill has been improved? Well that is a positive note for a change. I will check to verify tonite.</DIV>

[Darkstar]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Diapause wrote:<BR> <P> As a level 46 Templar, I have never been able to solo GREEN grouped mobs. I don't mean the ++ ones, or two mobs or +, I'm talking just no up arrow mobs more than two in a group. Ever. Period. </P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This is either:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) A lie</DIV> <DIV>2) Hyberbole meant to make some sort of point</DIV> <DIV>3) You are the worst, most unskilled, poorly equipped Templar in the game</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Templars in my guild, Templars I duo with, even Templars on test with the new Nerftastic combat system are among the best in the game at soloing multi-mob encounters.  I regularly Duo blue to even heroic 3-4 mob encounters with a 40 Templar friend and he can solo the green to blue heroics and up to yellow Individual encounters.  Most of these encounters would be untouchable to a wizard or even duoing wizards and it will be much worse if the new combat system goes live.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Get a full set of orange con armor.  Upgrade your spells to Adept-Master level.  This won't be a problem for you.</DIV>

[Chausie]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sebastien wrote:<BR>If you guys want to continue to ignore everything being said that is your prerogative.<BR>It's not my job to teach you how to do things like observe or think. =)<BR><BR>The point, for the intentionally obtuse among us, is that MOB DPS WILL BE LOOKED AT ALSO, JUST NOT YET.<BR><BR>"As part of this, we are also looking at the damage that NPCs do. After all, if NPCs can hit more often, we need to take a close look at what they're hitting for. And if NPC damage changes, it is a natural conclusion that we need to look at the efficiency of healing."  (<A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=43305#M43305" target=_blank>source</A>)<BR><BR><BR>So the plan, from the beginning, once again, is:<BR><BR>(1) look at avoidance mechanics (result: mobs will hit more often)<BR>(2) look at mob dps (result: overall DPS felt by average solo or small group player should be similar to what it is now)<BR>(3) rebalance healing efficiencies based on new to-hit and damage figures<BR><BR><BR>You are only seeing part (1).  Trying to form any kind of conclusion about it, *especially* if you are not on the Test server actually experiencing the result of the changes, is dumb.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>While I understand what you're saying, don't you find that this train of thought on Sony's behalf is a little backward for the Wizards or any mage class for that matter? Okay, so we're in "phase 1 - hit more often". Now to us, getting hit <STRONG>at all</STRONG> has a very serious effect...death. For them to increase the rate at which mobs are hitting, <U>at their current dps and our current nerf to avoidance</U>, results in even quicker death. </P> <P>They have test servers for a reason, it's called......wait for it......testing. I apologize for the cynicism, but it's been my experience that Sony is a company of extremes. It's either sink or swim, with very little in the happy medium department. While we're waiting for part (2) mob dps, wizards all around will be chiseling out more gravestones than what they're currently used. That's not fun in my book. </P> <DIV>I didn't parse my results, but I can say that mobs I used to be able to take with a fair amount of ease now make me uneasy with the amount of interrupts I've received. Even my hunting buddy got uneasy because her heals wouldn't go off. I know it takes time for changes to occur, but increasing mob hits with current dps and decreasing our avoidance skills is a bit of a smack in the face.</DIV>

[Kit_Oturea]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sebastien wrote:<BR> <P>That isn't what I mean..  the net result of these changes, when all is said and done, as I understand them is: mobs will hit more often, but not as hard. </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Which means 4 times the chance at interrupts.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I will agree with what the patch is supposed to be about, but I'll disagree that it is about it.  If the issue was to stop green sweet spot for groups, they would have focused on tanks.  As is extremely clear, the people getting hit the hardest are priests (Specifically druids) and mages.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>How does the heavy tank with 100% avoidance issue require the loss of a parry skill for mages and priests and a massive reduction in their mitigation?  I have mages I can barely keep alive on live servers as a fury if greens get on them and that is in group combat NOW without the test changes.  As a druid, at some point I will get aggro, and with these changes I am now supposed to drop like a fly?  How does that actually help with the heavy tank issue?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>It is not about tank balancing and group mobs.  It is what it likely was about, but for whatever reason, as they went through it, it became more about making tanks the only people who can tank.  Sounds like a good idea, but what it actually means is leather priests and mages get screwed for soloing and the rate of XP slows.  That is the actual EFFECT.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>As an aside, any system with caps deteriorates people enjoyment of the game as it stifles advancement in that path.  I know people who have left games due to this, as their characters abilities growth, not their equipment was what was most fun for them.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Their best choice for the changes was to change mobs post 51st level to reduce mitigation and avoidance, and have this countering effect scale up as the mobs get higher level, so as people got higher in expansion, this issue can be modified without disrupting  everyones play who did not reach 50 before the XP nerf.</FONT></P> <P>The problem with reading too much into this feedback right now is that you are only see the "hit more often" change, because SOE has not yet made any modifications to mob DPS.  So you don't have the "but not as hard" part.<BR><BR><BR>The net result from the solo and small group point of view, is that very little will change.  </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>And yet it is the place most effected.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>Maybe instead of getting hit once for 800 you get hit four times for 200.  Six of one, half dozen of the other.  </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>4 times the chance for interrupt.</FONT></P> <P>But things will change from the group/heroic point of view, as well as the raid/epic point of view.  In those worlds, there is a sweetspot, where, with the right buffs and stats, you can take on content while it is green, and literally never be touched.  </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>And in the end, why does that matter?  Low greens are barely any xp and their deaths make players feel good.  It should be about fixing raid level content, not screwing soloers.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P><BR><BR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE><p>Message Edited by Kit_Oturea on <span class=date_text>04-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:53 AM</span>

[Kwoung]

<P>Friday night patch...</P> <P>Not getting so beat to death, root holding better than ever and mobs seem to be dying easier. Not sure how it feels compared to live since I don't play there, but definately an improvement over how its been since round one of the latest changes on Test. Oh yeah.. and Tether doesn't break when the mobs take damage anymore.</P><p>Message Edited by Kwoung on <span class=date_text>04-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:40 PM</span>

[BlackHa]

My assassin has spent his entire career unable to solo heroic mobs past level 19. Welcome to my world.

[Kwoung]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BlackHair wrote:<BR>My assassin has spent his entire career unable to solo heroic mobs past level 19. Welcome to my world. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>No clue what ya mean.. never been able to solo a heroic mob as a wizzy personally. Maybe its a test server thing, but root never held good enough to solo one and since I die in like 3-4 hits from one, it is a pretty stupid thing to even try. Even with my wife (defiler), heroic mobs (with rare exceptions) totally own us unless the are only one arrow greens.

[Diapause]

<P>DarkStar wrote:</P> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Diapause wrote:<BR> <P> As a level 46 Templar, I have never been able to solo GREEN grouped mobs. I don't mean the ++ ones, or two mobs or +, I'm talking just no up arrow mobs more than two in a group. Ever. Period. </P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This is either: <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) A lie</DIV> <DIV>2) Hyberbole meant to make some sort of point</DIV> <DIV>3) You are the worst, most unskilled, poorly equipped Templar in the game</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Templars in my guild, Templars I duo with, even Templars on test with the new Nerftastic combat system are among the best in the game at soloing multi-mob encounters.  I regularly Duo blue to even heroic 3-4 mob encounters with a 40 Templar friend and he can solo the green to blue heroics and up to yellow Individual encounters.  Most of these encounters would be untouchable to a wizard or even duoing wizards and it will be much worse if the new combat system goes live.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Get a full set of orange con armor.  Upgrade your spells to Adept-Master level.  This won't be a problem for you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You have go to be freaking kidding me. I have 3 T5 Master spells, 4 Adept III's and all others are Ad1, so don't preach to me about spell upgrades. All my armor is Orange and I've completed 17 Heritage quests and obtained the best items at my level short of prismatics. There is no way that a 45+ Templar can solo multi-mob GREEN heroic encounters or ++ Single Green. Its a simple matter of not enuf DPS and Power to to outlast the mob. Plus interruptions make it near impossible to get such mobs down to 25%. It isn't even close. Pick a location, LS, PF, Feerrott, EF, SE.. wherever you think, it aint happening.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We have 6 Templars alone in our guild and none of them can solo heroic encounters. This is exascerbated even more so now with the added interrupts and upcoming combat changes. Come meet me on Lavastorm and bring any Hi lvl templar u find, I'd like to sit in this school session so you can 'show' me how to play.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So why don't you:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Get your facts right.</DIV> <DIV>2. Understand that not all subclasses can solo all types of mobs</DIV> <DIV>3. Show me a screenshot of Templar solo killing heroic mobs (and I don't mean down arrow ones).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Diapause</DIV> <DIV>Lvl46 Templar - Lavastorm</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Whats ur toon?</DIV></DIV>

[kingdave20]

<div></div><i>"Templars in my guild, Templars I duo with, even Templars on test with the new Nerftastic combat system are among the best in the game at soloing multi-mob encounters.  I regularly Duo blue to even heroic 3-4 mob encounters with a 40 Templar friend and he can solo the green to blue heroics and up to yellow Individual encounters.  Most of these encounters would be untouchable to a wizard or even duoing wizards and it will be much worse if the new combat system goes live."</i> This is one of the very reasons they are revamping the combat system. Heroics were never meant to be soloed even by the best people. With the new system heroics will actually be tough and blue/yellow/orange/red will have some meaning to them. The other reason was that players were somhow exploiting the buffs to make parry ridiculously high and encounters became trivial, I dont how this was done but its been posted a lot elsewhere. <div></div><p>Message Edited by kingdave2005 on <span class=date_text>04-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:33 AM</span>

[V'lanr]

<DIV>I have went from 20th to 22nd wizard on test since the new combat changes.  Since these new changes, I have to now root to survive against any creature blue or higher.  Group mobs, even ones for individuals, have become Very difficult.  Certain mob types, especially ones that are fighter types, hit consistantly and more importantly, can stun, which makes for a dead spellcaster.  I feel silly running around with a staff in my hand, yet my character is trying to mitigate like a fighter with very light armour :smileywink:.  I really don't have a problem with the way most solo mobs are (although dying to a like level zombie, and a slightly higher plains snake is depressing, 20th was a tough level), but I am not enjoying the group mob dynamic now as a soloist.  Area effect spells have become useless, as I have to cast it at the start of the fight or by the time I cast one in a fight, I will now be interrupted or stunned; the casting time is just too slow.  I have found I need to start the fight by rooting something as well, or it is unlikely I will survive a green group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I find I Absolutely have to knock off each member of a group as quickly as possible now, or I do not survive.  I don't know how a solo warlock is currently going to survive these changes :smileysad:.  I am curious how the solo summoners are doing against group mobs as well (especially green groups of 3 or more).</DIV><p>Message Edited by V'lanrea on <span class=date_text>04-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:45 PM</span>

[Beghard]

<div></div>A topic as old as the ages them selfs. It seems as tho that after the shatering much of the arcane knoldge has been lost. But in this adventure, the Devs are the only ones who can save the day. I picture the wizard conundrum as the "live event" going on behind the work stations. The plauge spreads around, but when someone catches it, they would rather just wait for the timer to run out only to catch it again rather than do the quest to end it. Myself, i am only a lvl 44. I have had a LOT of fun playing a wizard. We get to show off alot if were good(and seflish<span>:smileywink:</span>). I think having fun is rely the main consern, however, its hard to have fun with the naging fealing of being the ugly duckling in alot of situations. A few simple changes could fix us. Shuch as paralyz doing dmg, why do ice spike & blaz intim get mad dmg but paraliz doesnt get any? Its our only upgread stun is it not(i could be wrong<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )? It casts alot faster witch rox but it also has a longer recast. Ive heard sooooo meny complaints about protoflame. In another forum, a dev said he was looking into it. Hope that tuns out. But in all honesty a short term tween isnt guna fix us. There are to meny issues such as int not adding to dmg output. All of those factors add up and the.....doh...we suck :/ On the other hand, most of the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing is coming form lvl 50's. I dont think that unless your a 50 you have the right to complain. So SU lowbies <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I can tell you that uo till now(44) its been pretty tight. Back on track. Maby the course of the wizard subclass was desined such that at lvl 50 we are going to suck no matter what? What if at lvl 53 IC starts going one million million million dmg? Well, maby not, but im still courious as to how our further devlopment will turn out in regards to wiz v war. Then again im an idiot so who know<span>:smileyindifferent: Edit: Doh, on the topic of soloing i.e. group mobs. I used to be able to solo the glacier dudes in the cave in EF since lvl 42. The dudes are lvl 44<span>:smileyindifferent:</span> Thats right, i was soloing ^^ two lvls hier than me. Buuuuuttt.......i died...alot....by the time i finaly brought one down i usualy had debt already<span>:smileyindifferent:</span><span>:smileyindifferent:</span><span>:smileyindifferent:</span><span>:smileysad: Never made good loot either. But....i still could. This was all because of the glory that is(was) ring of cold. Held like a mofo. <i>Nom matter WHAT.</i> Aaannnndddd that was befor the upgreads to the other binds. Alsssooooo it would take a very long time to bring those dudes down. Having adept3s of immol and bofl came in handy two<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Now however, its become alot harder to solo those mofos. What if being able to solo ^^ two lvls higher than you at the higher lvls is a reward for trying hard and being skilled? whats wrong with that? It usualy amounted to nothing but debt anyway<span>:smileyindifferent: Now im not only having worse luck with ^^ but im also geting by butt kicked by solos. However, the other day i soloed the named lizard dude at the door to the obelisk. He was the lowest lvl green to me. Droped nothign but those crappy gloves of the [Removed for Content]<span>:smileyindifferent:</span></span></span> </span> <div></div><p>Message Edited by Beghard on <span class=date_text>04-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:16 PM</span>

[Kwoung]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Beghard wrote:<BR> A bunch of stuff.... <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Did your response have anything to do with the changes currently on Test and how that affects wizards?<BR>

[Beghard]

Their working on armor based on a classes ability to tank am i right? A post was made that <u>all fighters will be able to tank equaly</u>. Now their changing it based on a fighters dmg output. This means its still being worked on. The changes have made it so that soloing for a wizard is harder cuz now we are not only paper, but wet paper. <div></div>

[InuyMa]

Whoever said Predators have better utility then Sorcs needs to put down the pipe and step away from the computer. Our one group buff drops in combat, tracking doesn't work on epic or red mobs, and lots of classes can evac. As for the Templars, they solo great. As do every class in plate, and monks/bruisers. Even against heroics. <div></div>

[Kwoung]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> InuyMarr wrote:<BR>As for the Templars, they solo great. As do every class in plate, and monks/bruisers. Even against heroics.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You haven't tried the new changes either have you?<BR>

[SuDang]

No matter how much and what they change. For SKs it can only get better. Green ++ HAHA!, Blue ++ ROFL!!!!! I think its just a problem of SoE taking away what many classes thought to be normal and either live with or not. I really would love to see someone else on the end of the feeding chain ) <div></div>

[spyderopt]

I blame INTelligence on why wizards are having problems.