Patch #7: hits scouts in the groin, please reconsider :(

[Turb]

This is the first time I've had a moan about any Update, but this one seems to again only offer despair for scouts when boosts (e.g. damage compared to fighters) were promised.My concerns with the patch for scouts are as follows:1) Your likelihood of avoiding an attack is now based on two primary factors:   The type of armor you are wearing. The heavier your armor, the lower your chances of avoiding an attack.=> So AGI defence is capped at a low 150(!) and now our medium armour is less useful?2) Increasing your Agility improves your base chance of avoiding an attack, but it will not improve your likelihood of parrying, deflecting, or blocking with a shield.=> So is the 150 cap on AGI removed or raised?3) Shields now have the following base chances to Block: Tower (20%), Kite (19%), Round (5%), Buckler (3%). Your chances to Block scale up or down based on the con of your opponent. Shield buffs no longer have any effect.=> Do you want all scouts to dual wield? <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> This just seems to further reduce our soloing ability?=> How about some round shields that boost STR/AGI/STA? They're all caster-oriented now, but all we can use!4) Melee damage bonuses are now calculated based on the attacker's strength versus the defender's agility.=> EEEK! So fighters (lotsa STR) will outdamage scouts (lotsa AGI, little STR) ?????5) You can no longer hail targets while invisible.=> EEEK! This was one of the few perks scouts had - please don't do this. It allows us to do quests 2 or 3 levels ahead of where we might have otherwise done, but it's hardly an 'exploit' - nothing unreasonable in whispering to NPCs while invis? Minor nit: *) Many poisons and potions should now display the correct number of charges.=> How about displaying the number of procs left?The only positive things for scouts (and for swashies) in the Update are:- Poison: Translucent Relentless Vertigo now works properly.- Smuggle now has a 1-second cast time.- Evade will now provide additional hate decrease as you upgrade the quality of the spell.- Hamstring now uses the Swashbuckling skill instead of Skullduggery.How about other basic stuff, like not being able to resort Tracking list by distance after changing the list to show by name? I know you're trying to fix the 'big picture'... but 'little' things are what spoil the fun.Thanks for reading.

[Joker3]

<P>My biggest irritation with scouts is that they are not as solo-able as other classes. I always kill green^^ with my healer, fighter and mage. They all do it very differently, but the fact remains that they can all do it. The fighter just bonks the mob to death, the priest just casts a regen spell and waits for the mob to die of old age :smileyvery-happy: , the mage roots the mob and nukes it to death, the scout backstabs for huge damage and then dies in 3 hits. :smileysad: I don't know why scouts get the shaft when it comes to that. It really decreases my enjoyment of that class. It just seems like they should have their own way to solo like the rest of the classes. Maybe it isn't standing toe to toe with a mob and duking it out but it seems like SOE should come up with a way for them to be more soloable. I like my scout because it takes more strategy to kill things so I am not asking for scouts to be uber and unkillable, just for them to be able to solo, in their own way, the same things the majority of the other classes can solo. </P> <P> </P> <P>I think it would be great if they changed scouts to make them more stealth dependant. You could go invis, backstab, stun, go invis again, back away and do a ranged attack, stun, go invis backstab, etc.... With each invis, the mob has a % chance of seeing through the invis much like they have a chance to break a root so that it wouldn't be just a mindless fight of you going invis but it would at least give scouts a way to solo like the rest of the classes. </P> <P> </P> <P>Note: I am not saying the above is THE SOLUTION THAT HAS TO BE DONE OTHERWISE I WILL CANCEL MY ACCOUNT FOREVAH!111!!!!one, it is just a brainstorming thing that I am throwing out there. I don't really care HOW it is done as long as scouts are able to solo decently well and it is still a challenge.</P>

[Ute]

Also add to the list that all parry buffs no longer do anything.  Which renders about 1/4 of all scout class's abilities meaningless unless these are altered as well. <div></div>

[HyTeKOblivi]

<DIV>Round shield, 5%. Buckler, 3%. Kite, 19% was it? and tower 20%? What is sony thinking? Those 4 shields do not scale at all. Brigands, the way they are now are safety tanks/DPS. If your healers gain some aggro the brig can regain some of the aggro so the healer can concentrate on the main tank. We have taunts, we have hate increasing abilities, that alone means we have to tank from time to time. Why on earth would you give us a shield that is 5%?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Scouts. DPS. We are there to find the mob, and give them a beating of their life. Scouts. AGILITY! Why on earth would you base attacks on strength alone. Do those mages care what their strength is when they can nuke the hell out of a mob, get twice as much DPS as scouts, and do it from a distance (providing they have a good tank that can keep agro)?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Medium armor. 25%. Light armor. 20%. Heavy armor. 35%. Again, the people that use medium are now roughly the same as casters? Why don't you just get rid of the medium armor if it isn't going to be usefull.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here is something sony should really look into</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Proc'ed dual weild weapons. Why on earth do they not stack? You have 2 of them, they are seperate, each has it's own proc. Let them stack. I can see that my bow that has a proc, don't let it proc if I am melee, but for gods sake, stack dual weild procs. Same goes for a proc'd shield and a 1H proc weapon. Stack em. (if they do now proc with dual or 1H/shield then excuse my ignorance)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How about fixing the warden's hate list. Do you realize that wardens can gain aggro better then any tank in this game? I have seen it, I have fought it, I have died from it. We had 3 hate increasing/taunting classes in a group with 1 warden. Fighting a grey mob, the tank only needed 1 heal, the warden only used a small app1 instaheal spell, then the entire mob aggroed to the warden, and there was nothing the 3 other classes could do but to kill the mobs as quick as they could. Seriously, fix the real problems. (and the one time in bloodskull valley. I have screenshots to PROVE what happens if you bring a warden to bloodskull)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Avoidance. As a scout I have high agility. That makes me move quick. Why on earth is a green mob, that is 4-5 levels BELOW me kicking my *$%#&!? That is even without a ^ or ^^. Every item I equip armor/weap/[Removed for Content] I custom buy/make to have high agility on it. I have medium armor (brig) which means I should be able to tank better then light armor wearers, I am even using a round shield. I even have some grey mobs that are 6-7 levels below me that are ^^ kick my *$%#&!. And that is even with a healer. But oh no...there is that warden, she got the aggro, and SHE TANKS BETTER THEN ME AND SHE IS 1 LEVEL LOWER THEN ME!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guild Points for killing epic encounters.</DIV> <DIV>So your telling me, my guild which consist of a few people, average adventurer level is 28, get the bottom end of the deal because we are not a avg level 50 and guild level 25+ guild? How many level 28 or lower epic encounters are there in norrath that a guild like mine can kill? quite a few. where is our guild status points? NO WHERE because we are not good enough.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And that is just the tip of the ice berg.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by HyTeKOblivion on <span class=date_text>04-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:16 AM</span>

[Langel]

I just want to echo what everyone here is saying. I am especially worried about this change as a swashbuckler. Why on earth did you give my class 5 taunt abilities if you did not intend for us to be able to offtank at least a little? Can I trade those in for 5 DPS CAs please? Scouts are in tough shape as it is. This patch begs the question "What in the farbot were you thinking!?" <div></div>

[Razie Ber]

Bruisers/Monks (fighter classes) already out dmg all scout classes, by alot.. On top of being competent tanks.. Look frankly, I dont care if we can't tank at all.. Honestly, we can't anyway, I can take one barrage from high end raid mobs, and it's like an insta-kill... Buffing me up so I can take two hits, is not going to fix us.. The real issue is that Agility is defined in the documentation as being our stat that affects "Accuracy" i.e. ability to hit and the precision of the hit.. This shoudl be the case.. STR vs. Agility based hits is going to make scouts even lower dps and fighters even higher.. If we're the most agile we should have an easier time hitting vital points, getting critical hits, etc.. Not only is all our gear AGI oriented, but I for one, and most scouts I believed, chose AGI boosts for all my character differentiation options, under the impression that AGI would one day work as written. This needs to be addressed.. No matter how you slice it, all fighters are going to have significantly more STR.. <div></div>

[Faoite]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> HyTeKOblivion wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And that is just the tip of the ice berg.<BR></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>/agreed leaning a bit off the post...here is link to some fixes for us <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=42438&view=by_date_ascending&page=1" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=42438&view=by_date_ascending&page=1</A></DIV> <DIV>add this post and that one and that barely goes under the waterline of the ice berg. Oh well guess it's time to put the Swashy on a rack and wait til LU#23 :smileysad:</DIV><p>Message Edited by Faoite on <span class=date_text>04-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:44 PM</span>

[BrainMu]

<DIV>Just curious but when hitting from behind how much does agility really affect your hitting chance? .... why not dump some of that agility and get more strength? seems a simple solution to me .... or at least try the out the changes before complaining about them....</DIV>

[Langel]

<span><blockquote>BrainMuck wrote:<div>why not dump some of that agility and get more strength? seems a simple solution to me </div><hr></blockquote>You gonna give me back the 3pp I just spent last week on medium armor and AGI gear? SOE gonna give me a /respec so I can choose all STR traits instead of AGI ones?</span><div></div>

[Chalkdust1011]

<DIV><EM>Just curious but when hitting from behind how much does agility really affect your hitting chance? .... why not dump some of that agility and get more strength? seems a simple solution to me .... or at least try the out the changes before complaining about them....</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV>Class specific stats effect respective power pools for individual classes. Why wouldn't/shouldn't it be the same as far as damage output? As a scout you rely more on agility for accuracy and avoidance. Whereas a tank would rely on str for brute force and mitigation. A mage relys on int for spell damage. Forcing damage output to be solely based on one stat forces all melee classes to rely on that stat for damage, when in a scouts case you would think they would be able to deal more damage by delivering a more accurate blow based on agility.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Another issue I'm having is the avoidance being based on the type of armor you wear. Why should a heavily armored tank be able to more quickly avoid a blow than someone wearing leather or chain? Their mitigation should be increased because of such, but avoidance should scale in the opposite direction.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Agility not having an effect on parrying, deflecting or blocking? Not only does that not make sense, but haven't you nerfed this stat enough?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, capping the parry skill effectively makes two dirge skills useless.. I'm sure other scouts have similar issues.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Would like to hear some imput from scouts on test regarding these changes, but I'm fearing they are indeed as worse as they sound.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>~Spacek</DIV> <DIV>47 Dirge of Kithicor</DIV>

[Bergenson]

/reroll Ogre scout.......What a mess. I rolled a troll simply because I thought the concept was funny having a big, IQ of a rock troll tiptoeing around. For the folks that rolled rats and woodies and such I think this is simply a slap to the whiskers. Again and again I and others have chosen agility in both gear and traits to make our char more efficient. The original agi adjustment combined with this latest agi hit, the hail "fix", and piled atop the medium armor fiascoe makes for one reeking mound of dung heaped upon the heads of the entire scout tree.

[BrainMu]

<P>With regards to stats</P> <P>Str - melee damage (all classes), fighter power pool</P> <P>agil - melee hit/miss (all classes), scout power pool</P> <P>sta - health pool (all classes)</P> <P>int - magic damage (all classes), mage power pool</P> <P>wis - magic hits/misses (all classes), priest power pool</P> <P>i was under the impression that it has been that way since day one... it is your choice where you put your stats ... but i am sure i am getting off topic ... be interesting to see how the changes actually play out.</P>

[Huna]

The strength/agility thing, could actually help you in the tanking department.  For Example, if the mobs work the same way pc's do, then your super High agility will be above the mobs strength and you won't get hit as hard? Maybe?  We do need more info from all classes on test, to really see how all of the changes affect all classes.  All classes are seeing nerfs, so at least you aren't alone <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. <div></div>

[Ute]

<span><blockquote><hr>BrainMuck wrote:<div>Just curious but when hitting from behind how much does agility really affect your hitting chance? .... why not dump some of that agility and get more strength? seems a simple solution to me .... or at least try the out the changes before complaining about them....</div><hr></blockquote>I agree totally on the trying out the changes problem before commenting on it's total impact.  I do have serious questions about what is going to happen to our parry buff lines as scouts though.  This isn't the same as when they adjusted AGI and Strength and even though those buffs had less meaning, they still had some value.  This is a case of those parry buffs doing literally nothing after this change. Regarding the AGI vs STR issue for swashbucklers.  We really can not focus on strength(at least in the current system on live) until we at least hit the soft cap for agi at 150.  Why? - AGI increases avoidance.  Scout's defenses are mostly based around avoidance(much like brawlers).  So, high agility is absolutely necessary in all situations, especially if you are even going to attempt to try and solo. - AGI determines the power pool for scouts.  Scouts attack very very fast.  In fact, we attack faster than any other class out there.  In the case of swashbucklers(one of my characters is one) we attack faster than just about anything else in the game.  We do not have many high damage hits, instead our damage is based on a near constant attack on creatures.  Because of this, we need a lot of power.  In this respect we are much like mages and priests.  The difference is we don't lose power in large bursts, instead it works out like a constant steady drain.</span> <div></div>

[Ethelwo]

Scouts who evac when their supposed to, rock, those who don't are dead to me. The words of an EQ2 tank.

[Langel]

<span><blockquote><hr>Hunadi wrote:The strength/agility thing, could actually help you in the tanking department.  For Example, if the mobs work the same way pc's do, then your super High agility will be above the mobs strength and you won't get hit as hard? Maybe? <div></div><hr></blockquote>Nope. We wear medium armor.. Read the post again for that little gem about heavier armor not letting your agility defend you. <span><blockquote><hr>  All classes are seeing nerfs, so at least you aren't alone <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. <div></div><hr></blockquote></span>This isn't the first one for us lately. First our tanking was nerfed. NP. We accepted that for the most part (even us swashbucklers who are basically setup to be emergency tanks). Then we were nerfed in terms of relative DPS vs. casters. (Some) casters did need a boost and at least they also dealt with some issues where fighters were out-DPSing us at that time. We weren't thrilled but we took it. Then nothing happened for a while. There were some fixes to some of our stealth abilties. These weren't nerfs, in and of themselves but they were loopholes that scouts were using to get our DPS up to just *under* the levels of our caster peers. These loopholes were closed and our DPS dropped. Now, they've come back with round three, where.. <drum roll> - They are apparently going to *restore* fighters' ability to out-DPS scouts - They are apparently going cut scout (all agility-based melee) DPS - They are apparently going to further reduce our tanking ability - They are apparently going to force all scouts to /respec (if they give us the option) and completely re-gear our characters Yeah, I'm nervous about this patch. I agree that this is all heresay right now and we have to see how things play-out but you certainly haven't done a very good job of calming this kerra's nerves, SOE.</span><div></div>

[Ethelwo]

<P>strength VS agility: The effect or this change</P> <P> Low strength, high agility players take less damage and do less damage.</P> <P>High strength low agility players do more damage, but take more damage.</P> <P>Agility no longer equals avoidance it now equals mitigation. </P> <P>For scouts a high agility can compensate for the increased mitigation of heavy armor. Avoidance is no longer a real factor.</P> <P>Only monks and bruiser who rely on strength as fighters get the shaft with this one. They have to choose between power (Str) and no Power (Agi). If they choose power they can do mega damage at the cost of getting creamed in every solo fight, or if they choose agility they take less damage and run out of power during a solo fight.</P> <P>SOE really screwed up putting monks and bruisers in the fighter archtype.</P> <P>Priests and casters will now need to pay more attention to their agility. It will help them mitigate more damage when they get agro.</P> <P>Heavy armor priests less so.</P>

[Fennir]

<span><blockquote><hr>Ethelwolf wrote:Scouts who evac when their supposed to, rock, those who don't are dead to me. The words of an EQ2 tank. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Tanks who can keep agro off me when they're supposed to, rock, those who don't are dead to me.  The words of an EQ2 scout. Actually not, I wouldn't say something so ridiculously stupid.  Apparently you don't share the same convictions. I hope you lose many shards to sucky scouts.  And pray you never group with me cuz I'll let you die before the evac out of spite for being such a [Removed for Content].</span><div></div>

[Hoshino]

<P>Why not give the Scouts weapons that do dmg based on thier AGI, and weapon dmg based on STR? Seems that way the higher level scouts would at least not lose all thier DPS. All current high level scouts have based thier toons on AGI not STR. Also, are you going to give them new buffs, the current ones buff AGI, not STR. And what about the Ratonga high level scouts? They start with next to nothing in the STR department. </P> <P>Seems to me SOE should play a scout class for awhile before making a decision like this. I hope the testing proves all our theroies right. </P>

[Nevari]

<span><blockquote><hr>Turb0T wrote:This is the first time I've had a moan about any Update, but this one seems to again only offer despair for scouts when boosts (e.g. damage compared to fighters) were promised.My concerns with the patch for scouts are as follows:1) Your likelihood of avoiding an attack is now based on two primary factors:   The type of armor you are wearing. The heavier your armor, the lower your chances of avoiding an attack.=> So AGI defence is capped at a low 150(!) and now our medium armour is less useful? <font color="#33cc00">I'd guess the idea is the str vs agi comparision which will lower or negate melee damage bonus. If this will work properly it will be a big fix imo and we'll be able to take hits better. As Moorgard did<font color="#33cc00"> write: "</font></font><font color="#33cc00">- Melee damage bonuses are now calculated based on the attacker's strength versus the defender's agility." This CAN balance the medium armor mitigation compared to the damage inflicted by mobs. We have to see I guess but as by now a high agi wins. Yet again it favors plate tanks too which is kinda unbalancing in itself again. </font><font color="#33cc00"> </font>2) Increasing your Agility improves your base chance of avoiding an attack, but it will not improve your likelihood of parrying, deflecting, or blocking with a shield.=> So is the 150 cap on AGI removed or raised? <font color="#33cc00">So far I did understand the cap is determining the buff amount which would exclude the increase given by armor and weapons? Correct me if I'm wrong and a dev response to clear that out would be nice </font><font color="#33cc00"><span>:smileywink:</span></font> <font color="#33cc00">Anyhow as for the increase in said skills it will render class skills more useful like parry self-buffs respective deflection or blocking.</font> 3) Shields now have the following base chances to Block: Tower (20%), Kite (19%), Round (5%), Buckler (3%). Your chances to Block scale up or down based on the con of your opponent. Shield buffs no longer have any effect.=> Do you want all scouts to dual wield? <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> This just seems to further reduce our soloing ability?=> How about some round shields that boost STR/AGI/STA? They're all caster-oriented now, but all we can use! <font color="#33cc00">Same old. Hope they implement more items which cater all classes better.</font> 4) Melee damage bonuses are now calculated based on the attacker's strength versus the defender's agility.=> EEEK! So fighters (lotsa STR) will outdamage scouts (lotsa AGI, little STR) ????? <font color="#33cc00"> </font><font color="#33cc00">This is indead a hit </font><font color="#33cc00"><span>:smileymad:</span></font><font color="#33cc00"> One thought is that the new imbued jewelry, hex dolls, food can counter slightly to not fall behind to much. On the other hand building one-dimensional characters who invest all in one attribute only is never a wise choice in my book (yes you will hate me for that statement). Nevertheless the DPS balance is not given here as far I can see it by now. <span>:smileysad:</span> </font> 5) You can no longer hail targets while invisible.=> EEEK! This was one of the few perks scouts had - please don't do this. It allows us to do quests 2 or 3 levels ahead of where we might have otherwise done, but it's hardly an 'exploit' - nothing unreasonable in whispering to NPCs while invis? <font color="#33cc00">Can we speak of the nerf bat? I went myself into Qeynos to shop sneaking </font><font color="#33cc00"><span>:smileytongue:</span></font><font color="#33cc00"> It's still the wrong approach nerfing it across the bank.</font> Minor nit: *) Many poisons and potions should now display the correct number of charges.=> How about displaying the number of procs left?The only positive things for scouts (and for swashies) in the Update are:- Poison: Translucent Relentless Vertigo now works properly.- Smuggle now has a 1-second cast time.- Evade will now provide additional hate decrease as you upgrade the quality of the spell.- Hamstring now uses the Swashbuckling skill instead of Skullduggery.How about other basic stuff, like not being able to resort Tracking list by distance after changing the list to show by name? I know you're trying to fix the 'big picture'... but 'little' things are what spoil the fun.Thanks for reading.<hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Langel]

<div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr><font size="2">Ethelwolf wrote:</font><p><font size="2">strength VS agility: The effect or this change</font></p><p><font size="2">Low strength, high agility players take less damage and do less damage.</font></p><p><font size="2">High strength low agility players do more damage, but take more damage.</font></p><p><font size="2">Agility no longer equals avoidance it now equals mitigation. </font></p><p><font size="2">For scouts a high agility can compensate for the increased mitigation of heavy armor. Avoidance is no longer a real factor</font></p><hr></blockquote></span><font color="#ffffff">No. According to the Test server patch message your statement is misleading if not out-right fictitious.  Where, in there, do you see it say Agility increases mitigation? Huh? It affects your avoidance if and only if you are wearing light-ish armor.</font><font color="#ffffff"></font><blockquote><hr><font color="#ccffff" size="2">Avoidance</font><font color="#ccffff" size="2"></font><font color="#ccffff" size="2">- Your likelihood of avoiding an attack is now based on two primary factors:</font><font color="#ccffff" size="2">- The con color of the attacker.</font><font size="3"><b><font color="#ccffff">- The type of armor you are wearing. The heavier your armor, the lower your chances of avoiding an attack.</font></b></font><font size="4"><font color="#ccffff"><font size="2">- Increasing your Defense skill gives you a better chance of avoiding attacks, but there is now a cap on how much it can be buffed or debuffed.</font></font></font><font size="4"><font color="#ccffff"><font size="2">- Increasing your Agility improves your base chance of avoiding an attack, but it will not improve your likelihood of parrying, deflecting, or blocking with a shield.</font></font></font><font size="4"><font color="#ccffff"><font size="2">- There is now a cap on the effectiveness of Deflection buffs and debuffs.</font></font></font><font size="4"><font color="#ccffff"><font size="2">- Mages and Priests no longer receive the Parry skill. It temporarily still shows in the Skills window, but these archetypes will no longer have any chance to parry.</font></font></font><font size="4"><font color="#ccffff"><font size="2">- There is no longer any way to buff the Parry skill over your current skill cap, and there is a limit on how far it can be debuffed.</font></font></font><font size="4"><font color="#ccffff"><font size="2">- Shields now have the following base chances to Block: Tower (20%), Kite (19%), Round (5%), Buckler (3%). Your chances to Block scale up or down based on the con of your opponent. Shield buffs no longer have any effect.</font></font></font><font size="4"><font color="#ccffff"><font size="2">Mitigation</font></font></font><font size="4"><font color="#ccffff"><font size="2">- The base mitigation values of armor have been adjusted as follows: Heavy (35%), Medium (25%), Light (20%), Very Light (10%).</font></font></font><font size="4"><font color="#ccffff"><font size="2">- Mitigation values scale up or down based on the con color of your attacker.</font></font></font><font size="4"><font color="#ccffff"><font size="2">- There is now a cap on how much mitigation can be buffed or debuffed.</font></font></font><hr></blockquote>A lot of us /boggled at it when the game was announced, but <font size="4">scouts wear <b>medium </b>armor.</font>

[SkinnyFats_EQ2]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BrainMuck wrote:<BR> <P>int - magic damage (all classes), mage power pool</P> <P>wis - magic hits/misses (all classes), priest power pool</P> <P>i was under the impression that it has been that way since day one... it is your choice where you put your stats ... but i am sure i am getting off topic ... be interesting to see how the changes actually play out.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>int and wis have no effect whatsoever on magic attacks - see the 10 page post on this topic.<BR>

[Sonnyjim_Grumblestump]

Scouts wearing medium armour is not so strange. Medium is chain, and thats what rogues and rangers wore in EQ1. Bards lost the ability to wear plate, but all in all medium makes the most sense. I actually lost an in-depth breakdown to a timeout that I'm not prepared to re-write, but I will make a couple quick points: ==>  it sounds like the majority of these AGI changes are meant to prevent players from gaining 'invincibility'. <font color="#ffff99">Does anyone know if TANK classes were the only ones gaining this invincibility?</font> I would be very suprised if any other classes could do it. I hate to make assumptions when I might be mistaken, but if this is true, why are super-AGI-dependant scouts getting hit with the same stick as fighters to such a role-defining detriment? <font color="#ff9966">We should not be losing special parry/dodge abilities or AGI based defence and lumped into AC mitigation.. <i>WE ARE SCOUTS!</i></font><font color="#ff3333"> </font> ==> My avoidance is currently twice what my mitigation skill is. With scouts now being penalized for Avoidance by medium armour, and the medium armor type being passed over several updates ago while light and heavy armour types got a boost, <font color="#ffff99">should scouts start shopping for some light armour</font><font color="#ffff99">?</font> ==> I am another person waving a warning flag to look at how many scout(swash) skills rely on self buffing our own dodge/parry and shield use for soloing. Again, see my first point regarding whether the AGI problem was relegated to the fighter class or not. ==> Lastly, if high STR attacking low AGI is a damage bonus, and High AGI defending against STR is better avoidance, does anyone else think it's odd that scouts and fighters both have to switch their focus in opposite directions in order to 'fulfill' their roles as the best DPS and Tanking classes? Thank you for reading. <font color="#ff0000">I'm not saying these changes will suck, because SOE's being doing alright overall, but I *am* alarmed and I would like to know SOE has thought about these issues. </font> <div></div>

[Langel]

<span><blockquote><hr>Sonnyjim_Grumblestump wrote:==>  it sounds like the majority of these AGI changes are meant to prevent players from gaining 'invincibility'. <font color="#ffff99">Does anyone know if TANK classes were the only ones gaining this invincibility?</font> <hr></blockquote>Plate classes. Guardians, in particular.</span><div></div>

[Sonnyjim_Grumblestump]

<div></div>That was my assumption. At least now it's my assumption bolstered by someone saying I'm right. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I'd love to know for sure from a Dev. But still.. one step closer to asking -- <font color="#ff9966">if Plate tanks were the only ones capable of getting 'invulnerablility' through stacked buffs, why is the entire avoidance system being changed</font> in ways that seem to completely ignore scouts use of medium armour and AGI as our 'prime statistic'? Again, I'm not worried about the scouts because I have some plan to be something I'm not... I'm a scout! What are scouts based on if their AGI-based skills are nerfed, and they have to beef up their STR and AC in order to do well? They're little gimped fighters. It would be different if scouts were overpowered and had to be tuned down, but thats not even the problem here. If it was, believe it or not, I wouldn't mind a little nerfing in the name of balance. This concerns me though. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Sonnyjim_Grumblestump on <span class=date_text>04-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:40 PM</span>

[Synne]

If I didn't know better, I'd say SOE is trying to run off all the scouts.  Keep it up, guys.. you just might succeed.

[Odi]

So my troubadour might as well not bother meleeing eh? Considering I am outdamaged by some priests and tank classes, these changes don't help. I guess I might as well put up my infinite buffs, autofollow a group member, and go afk and do something productive.

[Blackguard]

Note that a majority of the changes you've mentioned are not going in with Update #7, they are just on the Test server for testing. We will not release the major combat changes to Live servers until we are confident that they have the desired effect. For more on these changes, see the following post: <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testdev&message.id=899&view=by_date_ascending&page=1" target=_blank>Test Server: Combat Changes</a> <div></div>

[SageMarrow]

<P>oh okay - so as long as the changes dont go into 7 and they go into 8 theres a difference?</P> <P>Work with me here Blackgaurd...</P>

[Vindicis]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageMarrow wrote:<BR> <P>oh okay - so as long as the changes dont go into 7 and they go into 8 theres a difference?</P> <P>Work with me here Blackgaurd...</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Try to work on your reading comprehension skills, you sound just plain stupid.</DIV>

[SageMarrow]

<p>Message Edited by SageMarrow on <span class=date_text>04-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:34 PM</span>

[Vindicis]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageMarrow wrote:<BR> <P>okay, i can read just fine, but unless you have some earthly clue about what those MAJOR changes are.. then you let me know, because as always that is the most VAGUE losely plated statement about the changes to ensue...</P> <P>So take ur head out of SOE's [Removed for Content] and maybe you can see past the s-hit.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Witty, almost your bedtime though isn't, sport?

[SageMarrow]

<p>Message Edited by SageMarrow on <span class=date_text>04-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:34 PM</span>

[Vindicis]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageMarrow wrote:<BR> <P>why is your old behind up posting on a videogame forum old tymer??</P> <P>im 20, i have an excuse, whats yours?</P> <P>Dont throw stones at brick walls....doesnt work welll</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I didnt know posting on the forums was a "videogame".  Your 14, tops. </P> <P> </P> <P>EDIT *Touche SageMarrow, time for my old, grouchy *$%#&! to go to bed!*</P> <P>Message Edited by Vindicis on <SPAN class=date_text>04-14-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:32 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Vindicis on <span class=date_text>04-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:42 PM</span>

[SageMarrow]

<HR> <P> SageMarrow wrote:<BR></P> <P>why is your old behind up posting on a videogame forum old tymer??</P> <P>im 20, i have an excuse, whats yours?</P> <P>Dont throw stones at brick walls....doesnt work welll</P> <P><BR> </P> <HR> <P>who has the reading problem now old chap?</P> <P>How about you stop patronizing me and UN-Derail this thread, jezus - i get a kick out this - but i get in enough trouble on a dialy basis for arguing with people... so i will stop it here...</P>

[Banef]

I sure wish I could COPY ( read: not move ) my char to test. My Scout is a Troll, he has decent STR along with 'ok' agi, a real middle path setup. I'd like to parse with these changes, but, I'm not about to MOVE my level 50 over to TEST. Eh, here is hoping there are some 40-50 scouts with decent STR on test to parse it and come back with info.

[Syanis]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blackguard wrote:<BR>Note that a majority of the changes you've mentioned are not going in with Update #7, they are just on the Test server for testing. We will not release the major combat changes to Live servers until we are confident that they have the desired effect.<BR><BR>For more on these changes, see the following post: <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testdev&message.id=899&view=by_date_ascending&page=1" target=_blank>Test Server: Combat Changes</A><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>They are on test for purposes of sending them live. Thats what the track record shows and I haven't seen anything to show me otherwise. So far SoE shoved out EQ2 far before it was ready. How do we know this? All the balance issues that MONTHS after release are still being worked on and nowhere near done and still remaining bugs. SoE has pushed out quite a few major changes 2-5 days after hitting test. Thats enough time to actually test and see if something works? More like the live servers are the test servers and the test server is simply there to make sure it doesn't crash the game for a weekend.</P> <P> </P> <P>These changes will yet again help to lead to scouts total destruction. I play an assassin myself for reference. I can still press decent dps but when put in a group with a monk/bruiser/beserker I find I have to use everything to even attempt to compete. If its a long battle they will out dps me by miles. To keep my dps up on par to be able to actually not look [Removed for Content] I have to run multiple poisons which cost cash... I need to buy arrows which cost cash.... also I need to spend for adept 1's on minor stuff and adept 3's on the more major stuff. While beserkers I've grouped with run app 4's some adept 1's not many... even a couple app 2's and do the same dps or a sliver under.... if its a long fight still out dps me.</P> <P>I dumped everything into agility because as a scout if I get hit on high end stuff I'm dead. I pull agro easily even if I don't do more dps simply because hitting fast even though small amounts pulls massive agro. Since agility nerf 1 which needed to happen but not as severly I was hampered. Now my agility will mean even less. </P> <P>How about this idea from a popular game called D&D... basically scouts are finesse fighters, fighters are more str fighters. Damage is calculated on if your a str or dex fighter (str or agi for eq2). if your a scout your damage is based off agility, fighter its str. Str is still used for mitigation and agi still used for avoidance. That simple thing would balance out fighters and scouts with one exception thats been ongoing. Scouts need better deagro's. As a 48 Assassin I have Evade which isn't scaling as I level for the detaunt factor but stays white conned. And a detaunt (Surveil currently) that puts me in stealth. I can chain both of these and turn off attack attack first and still mobs will stay agrod to me for 10-15 secs or until I die with a tank thats 50 and has adept 3 taunts. Whats the dps report show up at end? I'm under dps or just barely more then the tank (depending on tank class). The DeTaunts simply aren't doing enough upgraded to adept 3's and a tank having adept 3 taunts.</P> <P> </P> <P>Flitch Flea 48 Assassin</P>

[Temerarius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blackguard wrote:<BR>Note that a majority of the changes you've mentioned are not going in with Update #7, they are just on the Test server for testing. We will not release the major combat changes to Live servers until we are confident that they have the desired effect.<BR><BR>For more on these changes, see the following post: <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testdev&message.id=899&view=by_date_ascending&page=1" target=_blank>Test Server: Combat Changes</A><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That's all fine and dandy, but the point still remains, be it in Live Update 7 (which it's not) Update 8, or just some other update, the point that was brought up still needs addressing.

[Ramtaku]

<DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>Note that a majority of the changes you've mentioned are not going in with Update #7, they are just on the Test server for testing. We will not release the major combat changes to Live servers until we are confident that they have the desired effect.<BR><BR>For more on these changes, see the following post: <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testdev&message.id=899&view=by_date_ascending&page=1" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>Test Server: Combat Changes</FONT></A></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Okay, I look forward to reading the test feedback. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thank you for telling us about the changes before you go live with them and giving us a chance for input.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV><p>Message Edited by Ramtaku12 on <span class=date_text>04-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:14 PM</span>

[Mol]

<STRONG> You can no longer hail targets while invisible.</STRONG><BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As an assassin.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can take the armour reductions, i can take our crappy dps, i can take every other class having better utility, but i dont think I'll be able to swallow this change, it was a huge part of the benefit of being a scout. I dont think ive ever been so dissapointed with an upcoming change, when this goes live i think I'll try a new game, thanks!! </DIV>

[Stra]

Also caps on stats basically render bards irrelevant. <div></div>

[Vvengean]

<span><blockquote><hr>Blackguard wrote:Note that a majority of the changes you've mentioned are not going in with Update #7, they are just on the Test server for testing. We will not release the major combat changes to Live servers until we are confident that they have the desired effect. For more on these changes, see the following post: <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testdev&message.id=899&view=by_date_ascending&page=1" target="_blank">Test Server: Combat Changes</a> <div></div><hr></blockquote>the changes as posted pretty much makes a bard irrelevant to game play as they have nothing except for evac. i just hope i can hit 50 before these changes go in, if they go in as stated i see no use for the scout class and especially troubadors</span><div></div>

[BlackHa]

<DIV>I challenge any assassin to simultaneously do the following:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Solo a mob</DIV> <DIV>2) Run your power bar to less than 40%</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No matter how hard I try (Macro'd HO's,etc.)...I just can't do it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Because we only get 4 frontal attacks (with long timers).  So one of our "perks" is to increase our power capacity by increasing agility. I say BIG DEAL! I could have unlimited power, but the fact of the matter is....I can't even tap into the power I have. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So I recommend to scouts to do the following:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Forget about agility.</STRONG> There is nothing helpful about it now:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is no longer:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Im providing a meaningful defensive attributes</DIV> <DIV>2) Is of importance with repect to power capacity because of the forementioned reason.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Concentrate on building strength and stamina instead</STRONG>. Both ofwhich provide more benefit than our <STRONG>supposed primary</STRONG> attribute..agility.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sheeesh!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Turb]

Agree completely on the invis hail.... it's one of our - ever fewer - utilities. Please don't strip us bare, else - because we HAVE to group - our desirability falls even more <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Amise]

<P>Predators are supposed to have the highest melee DPS in the game, theoretically a trade-off for having the least utility and tanking ability of the Scout classes.  So it's mostly working fine then, since we can't tank and we have no unique utility.  But our DPS is also lower than it should be.  And the solution is changes which seem to further reduce our utility, tanking ability and DPS?  *head explodes*</P> <DIV> </DIV>

[Blackin_DeMast]

<P>Ya'know... I play a Ranger. I'm lvl 45 now and fairly well equiped. I chose Ranger cause I wanted the solo utility that I have. I love my class. If I wanted to tank, I'd be a Guard/SK/Pal/Etc... If I wanted to heal, I'd be a healer class. I don't get too much into the finger wigglers, so I didn't choose a Mage class of any sort. I chose a Ranger... which is of the Predator class. Hunters adn raw melee DPS with really cool little utility abilities.</P> <P>Well, the utility abilities are great. I love being able to enhance my run speed, buff my AGI, sneak around dungeons undetected, fall from a couple hundred feet and land safely, etc.</P> <P>The part that's really starting to grind my nerves is when I'm in Exp groups and have my parser running. Only if I flood power into skill usage can I even try and compete with a casual fighter or priest. Mainly the Monks, Zerks, SKs and Fury from what I've seen parsed. Pretty much any mage class blows me away, but I'm alright with that. They chose to wear a dress to a fight, so I guess they deserve some compensation. And other Scout classes don't bother me. That Assassin that out-DPS's me by quite a bit is fine.</P> <P>If I throw out modest power into skills during a 30s-1m fight, I should be top DPS or close to it if there is a Mage in the group. I should NOT have to drain my power to come in 2-3 DPS higher than a [Removed for Content] Fury or SK.</P> <P>And don't even get me started on the Arrow Cost of the DPS that I actually AM capable of. Name another class that has to pay for their DPS please.</P> <DIV>/rant off</DIV>

[Kizee]

<P>1.) Well thank goodness that I spent the money on rare leather armor for my assassin instead of chain...maybe it will help me out avoiding alittle more. :smileytongue:</P> <P>2.) I think I will hold off getting my imbued ruby rings and my ebon imbued weapons made until they stop revamping the whole combat system 5 months into the game.  :smileyindifferent:</P> <P> </P>

[aeio]

Yeah I am not sure they are going about it the right way. The archetype that is most dependant on avoidance is the one that is least benefiting from its exploitation at this time, and wil be the one most hurt by these changes. It seems like these changes are being made to deal with a few other classes outside the archetype.  I just don't know of any stories of Scouts avoiding attacks from anything above a green mob as it is. So we need to seriously consider looking more specifically at the specific problem than a blanket combat change that is going to make a relatively precarious archetype as it is even less effective. Looking through the changes suggested for this one would think scouts are one-man wrecking crews.... Problem is I am not aware of any such thing taking place in game.  I play a troubador, and right now with shield, all my buffs stacked up high, a blue mob will shred me. I would like to have at least some idea as to what they are trying to fix with this change.  I don't know of any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise that this needs to be impacted the way it is.  There was a lot of evidence before you guys made the change to agility and strength.  At this point, I have seen nothing from any quarter suggesting these kinds of changes are needed, or that some kind of massive game imbalance exists.  In fact it seems all I have seen recently is how monks are still not considered good tanks by some people because they supposedly are unable to withstand as much damage as guardians, for example. <div></div>

[aeio]

It would be nice if in the scope of these changes scouts could receive their archetype role as well. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Belgar Frostven]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blackguard wrote:<BR>Note that a majority of the changes you've mentioned are not going in with Update #7, they are just on the Test server for testing. We will not release the major combat changes to Live servers until we are confident that they have the desired effect.<BR><BR>For more on these changes, see the following post: <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testdev&message.id=899&view=by_date_ascending&page=1" target=_blank>Test Server: Combat Changes</A><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Fair enough,  you want to be sure the changes achieve the desired effect before taking them live.</P> <P>However, in light of Moorgards post where he stated...</P> <P>"<EM>Scout classes aren't being ignored. The fact that we haven't made a lot of specific changes to them yet, other than lots of bug fixes, does not mean we never intend to do anything about them. But we can't address every single class at the same time, so there has to be some that are looked at first and some that are examined later. Generally speaking, there were other classes more direly in need of attention than scouts have been, but scouts will have their time under the magnifying glass soon."</EM></P> <P>... do not the current changes being tested seem to run contrary to the implied improvements we thought we might see to the scout classes?</P> <P>This isn't a finger-pointing, "but he said this and now you do that" type of thing, but I'm just trying to square why we would read a post that clearly implies future improvements to the scout classes, and then read about test changes that seem to clearly diminish our effectiveness on many levels.</P> <P>It just seems to me that scouts, in general, should be extremely high avoidance and on the opposite end of the avoidance scale of say, mages, who have their roots, pets and mezzes.  Scouts should be jumpy, nervous, hyper, <STRONG>agile</STRONG>, dodgy, quick and very hard to lay a hit on.</P> <P>Is that not the vision of what a scout should be?  If not, what is?</P>

[BostonSail]

<P>I'm an Assassin / Carpenter.  < cue maniacal I've-Been-Driven-Insane laughter :smileyvery-happy: ></P> <P>Please let us COPY 1 character per account to Test so we can feedback on how this affects higher level play.</P>

[SageMarrow]

<P>my point exactly, thats one of the biggest problems that i see from a coding standpoint, </P> <P>The classes are tied together at the hip, so they will always be limited in what they can adjust and change without breaking another class totally.</P> <P>Assassins should have a different skill set from other scouts and especially fighters. Thier stats should do totally different things:</P> <P><STRONG><U>Assassin stats:</U></STRONG></P> <P>Strength: Effects the scouts will to fight (hp)</P> <P>Agility:  Effects accuracy and damage done by base melee</P> <P>Stamina: Effects how long and hard the scout can fight. (power pool)</P> <P>Intelligence: Effects how well the scouts stealth techniciques will work.</P> <P>Wisdom: Effects the rate at which skills improve through use.</P> <P>At which point it would be further broken down into separate skills that determine seperate factors, say between Rangers and Assassins.</P> <P>Assassin get peircing specialization that gives them increased damage with piercing weapons as the skills increase</P> <P>Rangers get bow specializtion that gives increased damage output with a bow.</P> <P>Berserker gets open weapons skill that allows him a melee damage bonus with any weapon</P> <P>Guardian gets open armor skill that allows him to get a AC bonus with certain types of armor</P> <P>And all of the classes should have been separated in this way to keep the differences and space between them functional enough to make changes as well as twink classes invidually to where you want them to be as far as damage output. If a scout wanted to get maximum damage output in his desired position, he knows that he would have to use peircing weapons to achieve that goal without having to go the cash/poison/arrow route. Same thing for a ranger. </P> <P>The classes could be tweaked to give more or less benefit from thier given skill without even having to touch something in the system</P> <P>__________________________________________________ __</P> <P>To me thats sort of the way the each archetype at least should have been blocked off from the others so that we would not have all of this <EM><STRONG>change bleeding</STRONG> </EM>everytime an adjustment is made to a class that uses X skill.</P> <P>just a thought</P> <p>Message Edited by SageMarrow on <span class=date_text>04-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:06 AM</span>

[Drak]

<DIV>To all the people that say oh stop complaining until it comes out.  BAH.  WHY wait for a problem if you might be able to stop it before it happens?  SOE shouldn't be changing things so much as to make a group of classes have to redo their toons.  Armour should deal with mitigation and the heavier the armour the bigger the penalty to your agi.  At the same time the higher your agi the better your blocking, deflecting, and parrying should be.  How would the big tanks that have great Str like it if they did it this way:  Str 150 agi 50 hits for 50pts of damage but only hits 20% of the time.  Str 50 agi 150 hits for 10 pts damage but hits 80% of the time?  As it is right now a tank basically has an = chance of hitting as a scout.  So no it is not fair to neft a stat that one class uses and not nerf the stats that other classes use.</DIV>

[screenid]

<DIV>I am really starting to worry .... I love playing my 46 assassin.. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have tried to raise my strength but for the most part I  focused on my agility ... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The hit to hailing while in SNEAK...is going to be a big slap in the face.....as a scout I feel we should have the ability to sneak up to a mob and talk to them,,,(SNEAK does not = invis ) </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Historios]

<P>The biggest problem that I have with what I've read so far is how a scout's primary job is DPS and our primary skill is AGI.  But from what I'm reading our primary stat won't have much of an affect on our primary job anymore.  As scouts are we supposed to sacrifce our AGI (and power) for STR so that we can hit harder to up our DPS?  Which means that with less power, we'll be able to use less of our CA"s and still not do as much damage.</P> <P>On the same note, it kind of goes against the racial descriptions that were provided to us at relase.  Many of us picked the small weaker races because they made good scouts, now it almost looks like we should have played large races for more str and used gear to add to agi.  Because in my experience so far its much easier to find good agi items for scouts than it is to find good str items for scouts.  By no means is it impossible to find str, but agi so far seems to be easier.  (just my opinion feel free to prove me wrong)</P> <P>I'm anxious to see how these changes test out when in usage before I start to get really upset.  But, so far, I'm not very encouraged by what I'm reading.  I'm really hoping that my concerns are unfounded and it works out for the best because I enjoy my assassin and dont really want to end up being useless.</P>

[MakhailSamma]

<P>I play a 44 Assassin and have to say that almost every post on here is on the money. Though I consider myself a great player and am contantly trying to improve my DPs, in a decent fight (unless I am being fed mana) I get owned DPS by tanks and though I can solo a green group mob accasionally, I get OWNED most times. I also have a tank alt and a caster alt, and they can solo a green group mob no problem. Even with these faults, I am not one to complain, but PLEASE, do not make the scout classes even more not needed in groups and worse soloers.</P> <P> </P> <P> Thanks</P>

[Zeroimagination]

<P>I'm going to throw in and say that actual caps on skills and stats are mentally challenged.  Diminishing returns are ok, for instance, moving from 50-60 agi is a fairly big improvement, but moving from 200-210 agi isn't as noticable of an improvement for example.</P> <P>In addition, the way that they've matched the stats up doesn't seem to make any sense at all to me.</P> <P>What would seem more logical would be:</P> <P>AGI vs. MOB AGI = Chance to hit or be hit</P> <P>STR vs. STA = Physical damage dealt or received</P> <P>INT vs. something (MOB INT?  MOB WIS?) = Magical damage dealt or received</P> <P> </P> <P>Weapons:  what's the point?  I blew a bunch of money on an oak long-bow, only to find that it doesn't affect my damage AT ALL because I only use my weapons skills with the bow.  So, my oak longbow is as useful as an Elm short-bow for head shot or whatever it's called at my level?</P> <P>I do like the game, but the whole combat system just seems to be designed by pharmaceutically gifted people to me.  I really hope they straighten it out soon.  And it sure doesn't look like it's going the right way.</P>

[Sebastien]

so much misinformation on this thread I don't know where to start  <span>:smileysad: (1) Base values for armor mitigation and shield blocks are just that: base values.  Those are not the actual values a specific item will give you.  The actual benefit of a specific item is based on several other factors, including the skill required to use the item, as well as the rarity tier of the item (treasured, legendary, fabled, etc).  You are reading WAY too much into those numbers. (2) I don't know where some of you people have been, but there has ALWAYS been a bonus to damage based on strength.  Did some scouts honestly not know this?  Specifically, the bonus damage from STR is as follows: </span>STR   Bonus  100    125% 200    135% 300    145% 400    155% Again, I am not sure why scouts were not aware of this, but it has been a part of the game since release.  The only thing that is being changed is that, now, when considering bonus damage, the defenders AGI will now be taken into account.  Please note that, if anything, this is a benefit to scouts, who tend to have high AGI.  It means that your AGI will now provide a form of mitigation for you, in addition to whatever is provided by your armor. (3) The net result of THIS PART of the coming changes to the combat system is that everyone, including scouts, will get hit more often.  That is the first step only, which is why these changes are not going to Live.  Step two (this is all according to Moorgard) is to then look at how much damage mobs do when they hit, now that they are hitting more often. The "hitting more often" part is being done so that you can't make the entire game trivial by spiking one stat and hunting green mobs. The "hitting more often but not as hard" part will make it a lot easier to balance avoidance and mitigation as forms of defense.  Right now avoidance is [Removed for Content], because it is all or nothing.  An avoidance based character either never gets hit, or gets hit twice and dies. The changes that are being made are smart ones, at the idea level.  I can definitely see where SOE is going with them.  This particular implementation?  meh.. I don't know.. that is why it is being tested and not put on Live. <div></div>

[Rodney]

<P>I think what scares people is "until we are confident that they have the desired effect."  We dont seem to like what is hidden, what is the desired effect ?</P> <P>Maybe a list of how you see this effecting each class, a break down of how mitigation and avoidence will work for each class and what spells, CA's you have changed, how the changes work for different lvls of the same class, 20, 30,40,50, raid. </P> <P>For the ones here that want to know the WHY of this goto the guardian board and read the posts by Gage, right or wrong that seems to be the start.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Sonnyjim_Grumblestump]

<span><blockquote><hr>Sebastien wrote:<span> (2) I don't know where some of you people have been, but there has ALWAYS been a bonus to damage based on strength.  Did some scouts honestly not know this?  Specifically, the bonus damage from STR is as follows: </span>STR   Bonus  100    125% 200    135% 300    145% 400    155%<div></div><hr></blockquote>I can't know for sure who you are directing that to Sebastien, but I for one am well aware of the current system. My point (and the point that I think some other people have been making) is that the changes in what AGI does for fighters and scouts means that as a SCOUT, I am no longer interested in AGI, and the fighter moreso. As a result, this means scouts (the supposedly nimble class) will be bulking up on STR in order to fulfill their primary (DPS) role, and Tanks (the supposedly muscled warriors) will be loading up on AGI to increase their mitigation so they can soak more damage in THEIR primary role, (taking STR when they can get it of course). Once more: <font color="#ff9966"><i>why build a combat system so the two melee archtypes benifit from focussing on completely counterintuitive stats??</i></font> Yes, it's always nice to have options in building your character so everyone isn't a carbon copy min/max, but we need to be able to attend to our core role first, then play around -- I have build my scout around AGI (not excessively, but enough) but secondarily, do I go for DPS or resists? It would be nice to have more reason to do WIS and INT too, but of course, we don't. :p</span><div></div>

[Sonnyjim_Grumblestump]

And YES:  Please let us copy a character to Test. I cannot afford the time to get a second character up to appropriate level on Test, but if I was able to copy this character, I would not be here posting when something this important was on test,<font color="#ff3300"> I would be TESTING</font>. <div></div>

[Langel]

<div></div><blockquote><font size="2">Sebastien wrote:</font><font size="2"> so much misinformation on this thread I don't know where to start :smileysad:</font></blockquote><hr>The only one spreading misinformation here is you. And, quite frankly, your tone is insulting too. I respect that you are trying to test whatever you can as a level 8 priest on test, but please do not come by here and act like you now have all the answers and the rest of us are morons.<blockquote><hr><font size="2">(1) Base values for armor mitigation and shield blocks are just that: base values. Those are not the actual values a specific item will give you. The actual benefit of a specific item is based on several other factors, including the skill required to use the item, as well as the rarity tier of the item (treasured, legendary, fabled, etc). You are reading WAY too much into those numbers.</font><hr></blockquote>A base value most certainly IS an 'actual value' in that it does have a large impact on gameplay. We are not idiots. We all understand that the numbers will vary depending on skills, items, etc. but base values are the core of that system. The rest is just how it is flushed out.<blockquote><hr><font size="2">(2) I don't know where some of you people have been, but there has ALWAYS been a bonus to damage based on strength. Did some scouts honestly not know this? Specifically, the bonus damage from STR is as follows:</font><hr></blockquote>Again, off your high horse please. We ALL know that strength affects damage. What you apparently weren't aware of is that Agility currently affects one's chance to bypass a mob's avoidance. This is the scouts' primary advantage in terms of melee-DPS.This change makes avoidance less important and mitigation more important for both us and the mobs. What that means is that (assuming things work as we have been told), agility's influence on DPS will decrease and strength's influence on DPS will increase. Not only does this change propose taking even more away DPS from us when we are already direly underbalanced, but it is adding relative DPS to tanks and it now looks likely a caster DPS increase will also accompany the change. We lose stance relative to our peers. Anyone who ever sat LFG for hours in EQ1 knows that PVP isn't the only reason classes need to stay relatively balanced with one another.<blockquote><hr><blockquote><font size="2">The only thing that is being changed is that, now, when considering bonus damage, the defenders AGI will now be taken into account.</font></blockquote><hr></blockquote>The defender's agility already is taken into account. As is a player's agility. These were nerfed once already (and, no, we weren't happy about it). But now it's being nerfed again. Classes who wear heavy armor will have even less benefit from that agility (i.e. if you are a medium-armor wearing class like a scout your agility will be less valuable after this change goes through). On top of that, agility will no longer impact our ability to parry (this is huge for us, too in that our defensive CAs have been designed around parry).<blockquote><hr><font size="2">Please note that, if anything, this is a benefit to scouts, who tend to have high AGI. It means that your AGI will now provide a form of mitigation for you, in addition to whatever is provided by your armor.</font><hr></blockquote>I have no idea how you (and some other poster) got the notion that agility has had or ever will have any impact on mitigation. Agility will continue to affect only avoidance, even post-change. It will just do so to a lesser degree.<blockquote><hr><font size="2">The "hitting more often but not as hard" part will make it a lot easier to balance avoidance and mitigation as forms of defense. Right now avoidance is [Removed for Content], because it is all or nothing. An avoidance based character either never gets hit, or gets hit twice and dies.</font><hr></blockquote>Maybe I missed something in the patch message, but where do you see that the mob will not hit as hard? Do you mean the quote about the damage bonus being attacker's strength vs. the defendant's agility? I concede that this could work somewhat to our advantage defensively<i> if</i> it isn't vs. defender's agility already.And then there's the question of whether we really will take less damage. Think about this: In order to get our avoidance up to anywhere near where it is now, we will have to switch to light or very light armor. The impact of that on our mitigation will be huge. Since SOE seems to be weighting mitigation more importantly than avoidance now, it would probably be foolish to do this but we are going to lose significantly in either avoidance or mitigation, if not both.<font size="2"></font><blockquote><hr><font size="2">This particular implementation? meh.. I don't know.. that is why it is being tested and not put on Live.</font><hr></blockquote>How will it really work is always a good question and, frankly, none of us know. But we have GOOD reason to be scared of this posted changes. Quite a few good reasons, in fact.

[Dliri]

<DIV>Bards are going to get killed on this patch if it stays like they state (Agreeing with previous poster).  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Worse tanking because of less avoidance due to AGI.  </DIV> <DIV>Worse damage due to STR as only means to increase melee.</DIV> <DIV>Worse buffs/debuffs due to caps on everything.  </DIV> <DIV>Worse sneaking so it'll take longer to finish quests.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well at least I can run fast and fall and track right?  Might as well just have the other 3 classes put us in their activateable slot for those 3 abilities.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can't stand that I get outdamaged by a tank.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, to respond to a previous poster, we have a hard time upping STR because most of our buffs, scout stat benefits, and gear improve AGI way more than any other stat.  As a dirge I can buff STR for a decent amount, but nothing like AGI.  Also dirges will be used to find and get to a target fast.  That's it.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yep, I'm disappointed for the first time while reading Live Update Notes.  And they've never really addressed scout needs in any of the others.  </DIV>

[Sebastien]

Langeloc, I am sorry for the insult, but your post is a perfect example of someone not understanding the mechanics, nor the changes being made to them, and then complaining about them for all the wrong reasons. <span><blockquote><hr>Langeloc wrote:<div></div> A base value most certainly IS an 'actual value' in that it does have a large impact on gameplay. We are not idiots. We all understand that the numbers will vary depending on skills, items, etc. but base values are the core of that system. The rest is just how it is flushed out. <font color="#ffff66">OK, since you are not an idiot, answer this question: what *were* the base mitigation values for heavy, medium, light and very light armors, prior to this patch?  If you can't answer that question, then you have no idea whether the values were changed a lot, a little, improved, or made worse.  So what is this "large impact on gameplay" that you are perceiving on the Test server?  How have the changes to base mitigation impacted your gameplay so far? I have the same response for people complaining about the differences between tower and kite, or round and buckler shields.  Unless you know the formula that turns base block rates into the actual block rates that are used by a specific shield that you hold in your hands, you have no idea how big of a difference 1% is.  It could be a huge difference.  I'm not sure, neither is anyone else in this thread. </font><span></span> Again, off your high horse please. <font color="#ffff66">OK I will try to do that.  But you know, there really is a lot of stuff that you seem to be misunderstanding, and I would like to help you understand it better, so that you can form solid opinions for yourself.</font> We ALL know that strength affects damage. What you apparently weren't aware of is that Agility currently affects one's chance to bypass a mob's avoidance. This is the scouts' primary advantage in terms of melee-DPS.<font color="#ffff66"> First question: Do you think the primary reason an assassin does more DPS than a paladin is because the paladin misses more often?  If not, then it is incorrect to say that the primary reason a scout does more DPS is because they miss less.  In fact, very few melee classes miss much when fighting mobs that are anything less than red. Second question: Do you see anything in the patch notes mentioning any change to the way AGI affects one's chance to bypass a mob's avoidance?  Because I do not, so I do not understand what you are worried about at all, to be honest. </font>This change makes avoidance less important and mitigation more important for both us and the mobs. <font color="#ffff66">How so?</font> What that means is that (assuming things work as we have been told), agility's influence on DPS will decrease and strength's influence on DPS will increase. <font color="#ffff66">Then things do not work the way you have been told.</font><font color="#ffff66"> </font><font color="#ffff66"> </font><font color="#ffff66">Strength's influence on DPS was already nerf'd hard to bring fighter DPS down, relative to scouts.</font><font color="#ffff66"> </font><font color="#ffff66"> </font><font color="#ffff66">If you can get your STR to 100, you already have a 125% bonus to melee damage.  Getting it ALL the way up to 200 would only give you an extra 10%.  So how dependent on STR do you think DPS really is? </font> <blockquote><hr><blockquote><font size="2">The only thing that is being changed is that, now, when considering bonus damage, the defenders AGI will now be taken into account.</font></blockquote><hr></blockquote>The defender's agility already is taken into account.  As is a player's agility.  These were nerfed once already (and, no, we weren't happy about it).  Classes who wear heavy armor will have even less benefit from that agility (i.e. if you are a medium-armor wearing class like a scout your agility will be less valuable after this change goes through). On top of that, agility will no longer impact our ability to parry (this is huge for us, too in that our defensive CAs have been designed around parry). I'm sorry but quite honestly I cannot follow any of that logic at all.  I don't understand how players with heavier armor will benefit less from agility.  It is true that they will tend to dodge less often, but the gain the same benefit from AGI that any other class would.  They are just starting behind because heavy armor makes it hard for them to dodge. <font color="#ffff66">I don't mind AGI not impacting Parry, or even capping it if they need to, but I do not like the idea that it cannot be buffed, ever, at all.  That doesn't make sense to me, but apparently their data has told them that Parry is way overpowered (never seemed so for me personally tho).</font><blockquote><hr><font size="2">Please note that, if anything, this is a benefit to scouts, who tend to have high AGI. It means that your AGI will now provide a form of mitigation for you, in addition to whatever is provided by your armor.</font><hr></blockquote>I have no idea how you (and some other poster) got the notion that agility has had or ever will have any impact on mitigation. Agility will continue to affect only avoidance, even post-change. It will just do so to a lesser degree. <font color="#ffff66">No.  You are incorrect because you did not read the patch notes that you are complaining about:</font><font color="#ffff66"> </font><font color="#ffff66">"- Melee damage bonuses are now calculated based on the attacker's strength versus the defender's agility."</font><font color="#ffff66"> </font><font color="#ffff66"> </font><font color="#ffff66">Remember that table I showed you, with the bonus melee damage you get from STR?  Well that bonus damage will work the same way, except that the defender's AGI will also be taken into account.  I do not have the formula, but here is an example:</font><font color="#ffff66"> </font><font color="#ffff66"> </font><font color="#ffff66">Let's say I have 200 STR, so I get a 135% bonus to dmg.  Now I try to hit you, but you have 100 AGI.  It's basically like your AGI subtracts from my STR.  Like I said, I do not know the formula, but maybe I will hit for 130% instead of 135%.  And if you had 200 AGI, I might only get 125% bonus damage.  Etc.</font><font color="#ffff66"> </font><font color="#ffff66"> </font><font color="#ffff66">So yes, AGI is a form of mitigation now.  And it is a brilliant move, because it will help make it much easier to balance avoidance tanks (brawlers) with plate tanks.  Remember the goal of these changes: you will get hit more often, but you won't necessarily suffer more damage overall in typical encounters.</font><font color="#ffff66"> </font><font color="#ffff66"> </font><font color="#ffff66">They are just trying to make it so you can't buff up, hit an epic mob when he is green, and go through the entire battle without getting hit.  Because that is what happens now.  If you don't play the game that way, these changes are not designed to effect you much.</font> <blockquote><hr><font size="2">The "hitting more often but not as hard" part will make it a lot easier to balance avoidance and mitigation as forms of defense. Right now avoidance is [Removed for Content], because it is all or nothing. An avoidance based character either never gets hit, or gets hit twice and dies.</font><hr></blockquote>Maybe I missed something in the patch message, but where do you see that the mob will not hit as hard? Do you mean the quote about the damage bonus being attacker's strength vs. the defendant's agility? I concede that this could work somewhat to our advantage defensively<i> if</i> it isn't vs. defender's agility already. <font color="#ffff66">You didn't miss anything, as the "not as hard" part isn't on the Test server yet.  But it is part of the plan according to Moorgard, as follows: "As part of this, we are also looking at the damage that NPCs do. After all, if NPCs can hit more often, we need to take a close look at what they're hitting for. And if NPC damage changes, it is a natural conclusion that we need to look at the efficiency of healing." That's why I am saying, people are overreacting to these changes because they are only part of a bigger package.  And unfortunately, this is the rough part.. getting hit more often.. ALL of us.. are going to get hit more often, especially in cases where a player is tanking an epic mob without getting hit just because it is green, and he has his avoidance stacked. That's what is broken about avoidance: it is all or nothing right now.  That is what SOE is trying to fix atm. </font>And then there's the question of whether we really will take less damage. Think about this: In order to get our avoidance up to anywhere near where it is now, we will have to switch to light or very light armor. The impact of that on our mitigation will be huge. <font color="#ffff66">Do you know that for sure?  If you are on Test, what would be helpful is for you to post your mitigation and avoidance values.  You could be even *more* helpful by posting difference avoidance values based on wearing light or medium armor.</font> <font size="2"></font><blockquote><hr><font size="2">This particular implementation? meh.. I don't know.. that is why it is being tested and not put on Live.</font><hr></blockquote>How will it really work is always a good question and, frankly, none of us know. But we have GOOD reason to be scared of this posted changes. Quite a few good reasons, in fact. <font color="#ffff66"> </font><font color="#ffff66">Now that I understand what SOE is doing, honestly the only people that should be scared are those that tank heroic and epic mobs without ever getting hit.  If you are not abusing avoidance mechanics, you should not be scared IMO.</font> <hr></blockquote></span> <div></div>

[Kaeres]

<DIV>I have been playng on test for months now and have seen some good and bad ideas come into play for this game.  I have seen things go from test to live within one day of patching and that is not enough tim to figure out what works or doesn't.  </DIV> <DIV><BR>In the case of this latest patch i fear the game has taken a turn for the worse. </DIV> <DIV>My main is a swashbuckler at 29th lvl.  With the current things in the last patch for scouts. i fear my swashbuckler is no longer playable.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>why?  simple... because what was good about her is now striped away and made to [Removed for Content] around.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Unlike some players, i never could solo well to begin with.  Now it is virturaly impossible.  the armor i have is med armor and with the changes to the avoidacne and migration, it becomes wothless.  i have no protection from hits and my weapon damage is minial now.  I gought 2 green at once and got toasted.  One green gets me to half health now.<BR>before, i could survive the two greens for sure.  A nomral blue difinately has my name and number.  (yes ik now we aren't supposed to solo).  these changes are making even small groups not an option.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>group invis is the only thing i seem to be good for now.  but even that is changed.  since no hailing while invisable, those hard to get npc's surrounded by mobs that would kill me, even if i was visable are now pointless, can't finish their attached quests.  i can not function as needed with these changes that are slowly clipping my abilities.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>getting back to the combat... since the aviodance has been tweaked, fighitng in a 3 man group goes much like this now:  in thundering stepps.... fighitng lvl 27 to 29 giants with a 29 swashbuckler, a 30 bard, and a 30 shaman is not fun or easy.   one giant...we all live, but any adds and we are escaping to avoid death of party.  the day before we were fine and could spend all day there fighting and handling blues and whites conned to the 29 swashbuckler.  now, we can't even function.</DIV> <DIV>the mobs seem to hit ALOT harder, not just some progression for lvl or con.  The giants before the patch were hittign we noticed at around 70 points per hit, now add 30 to 50 points to that and thats what we face.  where we don't have an adjustment for our damage that we do.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Healing could use some changes.  all the healer types in my opinion could use better heals for groups and self heals for them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have to wonder if the Devs ever try and play this game that they so hard and hurrily work on.  If they don't maybe they should to see what we are talking about.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Kaeres on <span class=date_text>04-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:04 PM</span>

[BoneM]

<DIV align=center><FONT size=5>For The Last Time Scouts Arnt Tanks</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=center><FONT size=5></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=center><FONT size=5>I love the post where moorguard says we can tank decently</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=center>Go tell that to me when I, an assassin gets ownd by king drayek or some other epic mob.  We cant tank we never can, Consdering we get ownd by grey mobs that we need for quests</DIV> <DIV align=center><FONT size=5></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=center> </DIV> <DIV align=center><FONT size=3>Which means, we do not care bout how agile we are and how much mitigation we have.  During high end raids we do not get hit, and are not supposed to.  Thus our whole existance is based on one thing</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=center><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=center><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=center><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=center><FONT size=7>DPS</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=center><FONT size=7></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=center><FONT color=#ffff00 size=4>Which means:</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT size=3>1.  Give use better damage ratio weapons.  A 14 dmage 41 delay weapon vs a monks (a 23/60 weapon or higher) isnt right.  We should have somthing that makes up for this, increased critical hits Vs our high agi score.  Ive already traited str because the focus on damage vs str is so out of wack.</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT size=3>2.  Give us some solo options,  We cant solo at all not even grey mobs very well, considering all our attacks are rear based and not frontal.</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT size=3>3.  If hits are now going to be calculated on STR then arnt scouts getting the short end of the stick, vs tanks  </FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT size=3>If a monk can solo better then us, mend.. tank, and do better dps, dont you think they are unbalanced vs us?</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT size=3>4.  I wish Moorguard that your answers didnt consist of, Well its not coming in patch 7, its comming in patch 8.  Well thats fine and dandy but that doesnt answer our questions.  Scouts have been broken, namily assassins that have all rear attacks for some time, yet we get no attention and it looks by the way you are stating things that its going to get worse not better.</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT size=3>5. This one make me laugh.  Poisens proc more but still have the same amount of charges per potion.  So really think on this one..  if a potion can go off 200 times per charge before the change and it procs 2 times per fight.. now after the change..  it goes of 200 times per chage but 4 times per fight.. All that means is now we have to buy more potions, more often.     They should increase the amount of charges to 400 to equal it out.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT size=3>6.  Scouts that use poisens/Arrows are the only class that has to purchase an absorbant amount matierals just to enchance our dps, which is unfair,  But if we do have to purchase all these matierals.. dont you think we should be the number one dps melee out there?  At this time, tanks and monks dont have to purchase anything , yet they out damage our dps.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT size=3>7.  Assassins in particular,  our timers are way out of wack for our abilities.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT size=3>Monks have short recast of there abilities under a minute (1000 or more damage)</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT size=3>Wizards/warlocks under 45 seconds and do major damage (2000 to 3500 damage)</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=center><FONT size=3><FONT color=#ffff00><FONT size=4>Assassins get what.?  5 min recast and a 1 hour recast.</FONT> </FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV align=center><FONT color=#ffff00 size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#ffff00 size=3>Major problems, no solution,  the devs wont even discuss it, please would love to get some answers or let everyone respect again since every month major chagnes are done to our traits and it seems to [Removed for Content] the players</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#ffff00 size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#ffff00 size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#ffff00 size=5>:::::::on a side note</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#ffff00 size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#ffff00 size=3>Templars vs Inquisitors</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#ffff00 size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#ffff00 size=3>Cures:  Very unbalanced in the high end raid encounters</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#ffff00 size=3>Templars get cures as a base in their abilities while inquisitors have to trait the cures or they are useless on fights like darathar.  Please make it so group cures are innate abilities not traits.. or allow priests to /respec again to properly gain the ability that is crutial to high end fights.</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=center><FONT color=#ffff00 size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=center><FONT color=#ffff00 size=3></FONT> </DIV>

[froglockpalad]

<DIV>lol my monk has never been able to out damage a scout of my lvl</DIV>

[Za]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DrakeV wrote:<BR> <DIV>To all the people that say oh stop complaining until it comes out.  BAH.  WHY wait for a problem if you might be able to stop it before it happens?  SOE shouldn't be changing things so much as to make a group of classes have to redo their toons.  Armour should deal with mitigation and the heavier the armour the bigger the penalty to your agi.  At the same time the higher your agi the better your blocking, deflecting, and parrying should be.  How would the big tanks that have great Str like it if they did it this way:  Str 150 agi 50 hits for 50pts of damage but only hits 20% of the time.  Str 50 agi 150 hits for 10 pts damage but hits 80% of the time?  As it is right now a tank basically has an = chance of hitting as a scout.  So no it is not fair to neft a stat that one class uses and not nerf the stats that other classes use.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>If you're basing your arguments on facts, yes I agree... But unless you've tested it, you're only arguing worse case senario, with a doomsday mentality.</P> <P>I do so wish SOE would allow Test Server Copying, just so we could interject some sanity into all this.</P> <p>Message Edited by Zald on <span class=date_text>04-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:47 PM</span>

[Nerj]

<P>Sorry, but I don't see a real problem here. Unless Scout are planning to be Tanks.</P> <P>To me it makes sense, this way. If you are agile you will avoid blows. In addition, you should land more blows if you are more agile then your enemy. You may not hit as hard but, you will hit more often. On the other hand, Fighter will hit hard -- when they do hit. With DPS balancing coming in you should figure that the way to increase Scout DPS is to allow them to HIT more often even if the damage is low. Say in a 30Sec fight you hit for 100 damage every 2 secs - total 1500 damage. Now say fighter hits for 300 damage every 10secs( slower movement, longer weapon delay). </P> <P>In addition, it's an attackers strength vs. defenders agility, if both are at 150, how hard can you be hit?  Again, most people are looking at the damage that can be dealt, not on how much is recieved. When A Scout attacks it's his Strength against a Defenders agility. If you boost agility with equipment and buffs to max, then add to strength, Scouts will be better damage dealers then Fighters since their strength will be higher then defenders agility. </P>

[Havlen]

I've always thought that the balance of Scouts should be that they dish out DPS almost equal to or even equal to a mages DPS against single targets whereas mages excel in extreme DPS vs groups of mobs via powerful AoEs.    I don't mind having less dps vs single mobs than a mage but I dislike not having greater DPS than tanks (of course I'm a dirge so I'm out-DPS'd by many of the tank classes). I think all scout classes should out DPS all tank classes as that is their role -- this is personal dps too not just total 'effective' dps.   Of the scout classes the predator should do the most individual "direct" dps and be the worst at taking hits.  The brigand/swashbuckler should do the second most individual "direct" dps and be the best at taking hits.   The bards should do the last "direct" dps (better than any tank mind you!), do the best "effective" dps (by raising eveyrone else's) in the "best" situation (which would be a melee-heavy group), and be the second best at taking hits.  To me, that should be the balance of them in the dps department.  All of them should out "direct" dps the best dps tanks just as all of them should tank worse than the worst tanking tank classes. * * * Someone on page one mentioned duelwielding proc's not stacking and I didn't see a correction so I will do it here.  Duelwield weapon procs do stack.  I use a SSOY and PGT a lot of the time and I get both procs going off.   Not sure if you meant something else but I can assure you that you can get both of them to proc during the battle.   <div></div>

[Sebastien]

It's an interesting question to ask what really distinguishes the scout and mage archetypes.  Both are high DPS, high utility.  What I have noticed is that Mage utility seems to center around crowd control and power management, whereas Scout utility has more to do with combat and travel.  There are certainly exceptions to that, but that is generally how I look at it.  A big part of scout utility, to me, is HO management (coin) as well. <div></div>

[fur]

<DIV>Strength has always been the given stat for doing melee damage since day 1, alot of scout's out there (me included) have focused heavily on strength as it one of our most important attributes considering we are a dps class, if you have neglected strength up to now then your current damage will be subpar to a warrior if you look at auto attack hits alone, scouts rely on agility for 2 things, power and defence, just like a paladin/sk need wisdom to augument their power pool so do we need agility to augument our power pool, the ONLY stat in the game that determines raw melee damage is and has always been strength.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I wholeheartedly DISAGREE to any changes made to scouts to recalculate our autoattack ie make us rely on agility for damage instead of strength or any such notion cause i know for a fact that most scouts i play with favor strength heavily in order to perform their job as intended aka doin damage, changing the core fundemantals of a given stat will break more characters then it will mend, on a side note giving scouts the ability to critical hit or increased procc chance and tie that into agility would possible be a good "middle ground"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a side note many scout classes can debuff agility which will make us able to decrease the mobs damage with upcoming changes which is imo a GOOD thing <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Amise]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BoneMan wrote:<BR> <DIV align=center><FONT size=5>For The Last Time Scouts Arnt Tanks</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=center><FONT size=5></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=center><FONT size=5>I love the post where moorguard says we can tank decently</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=center>Go tell that to me when I, an assassin gets ownd by king drayek or some other epic mob.  We cant tank we never can, Consdering we get ownd by grey mobs that we need for quests</DIV> <DIV align=center> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I'm pretty certain that when MG says Scouts can tank decently he is not referring to raid mobs.  At level 50 about the only epic encounter I'm capable of tanking is that skeleton in CoD for manastone.  A single barrage (or even a single normal hit in some cases) from almost any 50+ epic boss in the game can and has killed me at one time or another, and I am ok with that.  Only the fighter archetype is intended to be capable of tanking appropriate level epic encounters.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can tank heroic encounters "decently".  I don't do a spectacular job and I cannot tank anything of equal or higher level without sucking a lot of power out of my healers but I do it well enough to get by when neccessary. In fact I would say that my main issue when tanking is not the amount of damage that I take, but the fact that I cannot easily hold agro on more than one or two mobs at the same time.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In short, I am reasonably content with my current tanking ability, in groups at least.  Solo is an entirely different story.  However the way I see it, it's difficult to balance Assassins in solo vs group situations.  Increasing our solo capability will increase our group tanking effectiveness as well, perhaps beyond what it should be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PS I don't get owned by grey mobs unless they're wizards, in which case anyone would get owned by them because damage calculations for NPC wizards are insane.</DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text>PPS While you are mostly right about Inquisitors, the problem is actually even more severe than that for them, since they are the only priest class which gets only ONE group cure.</SPAN></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Amise on <SPAN class=date_text>04-17-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:17 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Amise on <span class=date_text>04-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:19 AM</span>

[Ru]

Sebastien, i want to know what class you play and how in the world you arrived at the logical conclusion that a change that helps a strength based character is a good change for an agility class. Let me make one point for you, solo all things will be almost the same. As a scout i will hit less for less as does the mob so a fight will last longer than it does now, while a tank will do just the opposite and take just the opposite in a much shorter fight. Now let's put a group together with a tank, a healer, and a scout, the tank is hitting harder and getting the heals to mitigate his damage taken, as the scout i am hitting less and well just hitting less for less. I am not being healed because i am not taking damage and all my wonderful ability to take less damage is nill. So how is it that this change is a positive for scouts again?

[SageMarrow]

<P>Sebastien and Nerjin, </P> <P>you are fighting a losing battle in a game like this. Because at the end of the day only three things matter enough to be of note, everything else is just fluff thats good situationally... Evac, Pathfinding, all that good stuff.</P> <P>I was a firm believer in those tradeoffs for a long time. but when you balance classes so tightly knitted together with 3 or more mindsets in mind as to what you are trying to achieve - you hit some major brick walls in balancing.</P> <P>In the end in about 85% of situations this is all that matters:</P> <P>Taking damage - doing damage - healing damage </P> <P>AkA</P> <P>Tanking/DPS/Healing</P> <P>Thats all that matters in these games and the classes with the most in those core areas will be chosen first. Think of it this way bro.</P> <P>Freeboot: Nice to have right? But why pass up all that experience and such that you could gain on the way to that CERTAIN SPOT in the dungeon. Especially since you cant hail NPC's anymore while invis.</P> <P>Evac: Nice to have right? But with a good tank, a good healer, and a well rounded group, you shouldnt need to evac! If the group goes at a consistent pace through the dungeon design, then more than likely it will be a cake walk.</P> <P>So after you realling think about it - unless every class gets some definate 100% useful utility at all times, they will always be undercut by other classes that do one of those core roles alot better. Tank = Guardian, DPS = warlock, Healing = Templar.</P> <P>So thats why you see scouts wanting DPS upwards in the area of mages, because the utility is strictly situational. Same thing with my FD, and Ignore pain (self heal). its nice to have, but if i could tank like a guardian, more than likely i wouldnt have needed to FD and clear the group up from a wipe. I know that Brawlers are a special case because of thier DPS capability. But im more so making an example here.</P> <P>If the scout didnt go down in 2 hits, then more than likely he wouldnt be as peeved about his dps, but with the classes built so tightly together without 1 outshining the other till RAID time, a scout that could take more than 2 hits would be treading on brawler territory and you just have one more argument within this stupid ARCHETYPE SYSTEM crud.</P> <P>Because all that will happen in that scenario is a brawler would complain that a scout had more agility buffs and higher avoidance and better mitigation, while they are supposed to be tank classes, and unless scouts get nerfed of thier abitlity to take a punch, they want their evac and pathfinding ASAP. and thats usually how these things play out.</P> <P>Which is why i still say till this day - that they should have made 24 Separate classes = and kept the fundamental mindset when balancing. Because all that they have done here is basically - corall the classes into 4 jobs, jobs that some classes cannot do as well as other classes because of these SITUATIONAL tradeoffs that go into the balancing - when the only thing that really matters is </P> <P>tanking/Dps/healing </P> <DIV>We all know that with a good tank, enough dps, and a decent healer - you can kill any mob in the game. Simply put</DIV><p>Message Edited by SageMarrow on <span class=date_text>04-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:22 AM</span>

[Sebastien]

<div></div>You choose to over-simplify things, and then complain that things are too simple. Of course utility is situational.. saying that something is worthless because it is very useful but only in certain situations is a really pointless position to take imo.  Combat Res has situational utility also.. should we just scrap that too?  According to your logic, there is no reason to have it in the game, since a "good" group should never have anyone die.  I wonder how many priests (or other players, for that matter) would agree. All you do is make post after post of how poorly designed and boring the game is, and act as if people who find it enjoyable and sophisticated are just dumb.  Why don't you go find a game that better obeys your tenants of good design, since this one is so terrible to you? <div></div><p>Message Edited by Sebastien on <span class=date_text>04-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:03 AM</span>

[SageMarrow]

<P>well sebastien a point that you missed in that post is when i said clearly, that i used to be a firm believer in those tradeoffs as well.</P> <P>BUT Apparently you have no sight past your own because if it was as simple as the way you portray it to be - then we would not have players screeching for more of those core abilities.</P> <P>No one is asking for more utility - they are asking for DPS</P> <P>healers are not asking for more debuffs / utility- they are asking for more HEALS.</P> <P>tanks are not asking for more utility or dps  - they are asking for more TANKING ABILITY.</P> <P>So as i said, im a very intuitive person as to what i see. My personal issues with this game dont have a place here and now = and the fact still remains about what i said.</P> <P>its not right that its that simple. Its not cool, i wish it were different but whether or not you like it or choose to see it that way -= thats how it is. Look at the post coming out around these boards- Do any of them allude to PLAYERS (outside of you) wanting anything that is not on that list as far as </P> <P>Tanking/DPS/healing?</P> <P>No, i can answer it for you. What matters the most is what will matter the most. And if its not on that list = then it doesnt matter to the majority of players that primarily adventure within the current scheme of things... </P> <DIV>(edit: and for the record, in a good group, players dont die... and the game is not designed to kill a good group every 45 minutes.. for that matter there would not be any debt at all, what game are you playing)</DIV><p>Message Edited by SageMarrow on <span class=date_text>04-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:53 PM</span>

[Sebastien]

Actually Sage most players are simply playing and enjoying the game, regardless of how hard that may be for you to accept, and they will never make a single post on these boards. In our guild we have a coercer that excels at his role and loves his class (has maybe 4 posts total), we have an SK that thinks her class works fine (doesn't post), we have a necro who is pleased with his DPS (doesn't post), and we even have a fury that can heal! (doesn't post)  Reading these boards you would think none of that is possible. That doesn't mean I am blind to the balance issues that many perceive; it just means that getting so caught up in your own bitterness does not give you any special insight.  As I said, if you are so dissatisfied with the game, and think it is for simpletons, go play something that is more appealing to you.  Games are for entertainment.  Many subscribers find an abundance of that here.  If you do not, then spend your money elsewhere.  It is that simple really. <div></div>

[Valta]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageMarrow wrote:<BR> <P>No one is asking for more utility - they are asking for DPS</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>you are wrong, I am asking for more utility <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I see it this way, scouts should be something between tanks and mages regarding the core abilities of DPS and tanking, but I would give up some % to have more utility (like some real traps and locked doors/chests)...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>btw please please please remove the disarm trap skill from being trainable, set it to maximum level, or reduce all traps to lvl 1. there drop not enough chests to train the skill. Im lvl 29 and my disarm trap skill is at 40...</DIV>

[BlackHa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> furok wrote:<BR> <DIV>Strength has always been the given stat for doing melee damage since day 1, alot of scout's out there (me included) have focused heavily on strength as it one of our most important attributes considering we are a dps class,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>My response:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00> A new player buys the box game and reads through the manual. He reads that agility is a scouts key attribute. He reads that a ratonga makes an excellent scout. He picks a race with low strngth and stamina but has high agility because <STRONG>it is what the developers intended. </STRONG>The new player does not have this "inside information" that agility is worthless. That he would be better off choosing an Ogre for his scout class. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00><BR></FONT> </DIV></DIV> <DIV> if you have neglected strength up to now then your current damage will be subpar to a warrior if you look at auto attack hits alone, scouts rely on agility for 2 things, power and defence, just like a paladin/sk need wisdom to augument their power pool so do we need agility to augument our power pool, the ONLY stat in the game that determines raw melee damage is and has always been strength.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Okay...let's talk about power and defense. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>With respect to defense: If you haven't noticed, the plan is to use armor to determine the avoidance calculation. This effectively removes agility from the equation. A cleric with chain will avoid like a scout with chain.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>With respect to power: I can't even use the power pool (so why build on it?). My limited frontal attacks and long timers prohibit me from taking advantage of a large power pool. If I had the agility of an Ogre, I would not be able to use up my power pool.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I wholeheartedly DISAGREE to any changes made to scouts to recalculate our autoattack ie make us rely on agility for damage instead of strength or any such notion cause i know for a fact that most scouts i play with favor strength heavily in order to perform their job as intended aka doin damage, changing the core fundemantals of a given stat will break more characters then it will mend, on a side note giving scouts the ability to critical hit or increased procc chance and tie that into agility would possible be a good "middle ground"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>You absolutely do not speak for the majority of scouts in this case. Many players chose high agility races (wood elf, ratonga, etc.) because of their high agility attribute.  If a Wood Elf or Ratonga is not suitable for scout, then what are they suitable for? When the developers tell us that agility is our primary attribute, we tend to believe them. You are absolutely wrong in saying that "it will break more characters than it will mend". As it stands now, many current scouts are broken because they believed that agility is our key attribute. They built their character with this in mind. They did not have this "inside infromation" that we would be better off foregoing agility altogether. Make an ogre assasisn and never choose agility when choosing a class upgrade. Heck...even our HO gives agility boosts because <STRONG>agility was supposed to make us better.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a side note many scout classes can debuff agility which will make us able to decrease the mobs damage with upcoming changes which is imo a GOOD thing <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[SageMarrow]

<DIV>and you know what sebastien? The problems that you see people posting about here dont happen until they get to level 40+. And i dont believe you are there yet = last time you said something =correct me if i am wrong.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thats when the balance issues start to creep out -= because thats when buffs start spreading out and thats also when the classes start going thier own direction EXTREMELY.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thats when you see posters migrate here. To voice their issues. Everyone disregards ANY poster who has a problem with thier class and they are not at the least level 35. outside of a broken skill.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I too LOVED my class until the broken skills, the nerfs and imbalances started showing up in full force. THAT is when and ONLY when i migrated here to voice my complaints = alot of things were personal carriages that i kept to myself, but they changed into other things.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I speak for majorities based upon what i see and experience= Im not all about my class and my crap. I want everyones class to be unique and fun.Im not soooo enthralled with the game because graphics dont mean crap to me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tradeskilling doenst mean crap to me. That is not what makes a game an mmoRPG!, thats what i came here to play . AN RPG. So if i want things to be in the game that make this a great RPG experience then okay - thats just me. When people bring up topics that allow me to voice my opinion i do so.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have never once made up a post saying *EQ2 Sucks = HERES WHY!!*... And i never will = even after i quit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So understand me, i speak upon what i see.</DIV>

[fur]

<P>Agilty is a key attribute for scouts in the regard that it adds power nothing else, in the game manual it clearly states that strength determines the amount of weight you can carry and how effective you are in combat, so even that new player choosing ratonga should know that if he wants to be effective in combat he should invest in some strength gear, i mean intelligence is a key attribute for wizards but it doesnt make them nuke harder does it? WIsdom is a key attribute for healers but they dont nuke,dot;heal better/harder just cause they got higher wis either, so my point is that if you hit people for a living you should  put points in strength in order to hit harder, this is common knowledge no matter how you twist and turn it around and also stated both on persona and in the manual.</P> <P>Im not trying to imply that i speak for anyone else but myself but if you want to be a effective damage dealer then you need strength and this is not some secret the developers have been cloaking its been common information since day 1, some scouts opt to go pure agility for better soloing capacity higher power pools etc, some (most) seem to take the middle road and opting for a well rounded mix of agility strength and stamina and lastly you have the dps seekers who will specc their char towards doing the highest possible dps (im in this last cathegory) and i dont care if im using very light armor thats green , if it got superior strength on it its equipped, simple as that. </P> <P>Ive built my character towards the goal of maximizing my dps as we are first and foremost a dps class, that beeing said i use tools given to us by the developers, it doesnt say anywhere in any manual or in any clarification anywhere that scouts should rely on agility to do their damage or that agility is the key attribute for a scouts dps, we fall under the same ruleset as every other character in this game and that ruleset plainly and obviously stated since day 1 that in order to be effective and increase melee damage you increase strength not agility.</P> <P>Even though we are scouts we are still part of the same ruleset as everyone else, strength is the same no matter if you are a wizard or a warrior it still do the exact same thing , the only thing a key attribute provides for EVERY class is where they get their power from, nothing else. </P> <P>Also remember that as scouts we do in fact have the blatantly obivous advantage of not beeing forced to have high mitigation / defensive inclined armor so we have a much easier time tailoring our stats to do damage then a warrior ever will, which puts us at a higher average strength then any warrior if you favor dps over versatility.</P>

[fur]

<P>Double post</P> <p>Message Edited by furok on <span class=date_text>04-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:35 PM</span>

[Rock]

<P>Being a Warlock i haven't read anything in possible upcoming changes that really affect me. That being said i still hate seeing repeated nerfs. For the most part it seems to me that SOE implements nerfs too many times because they see extreme circumstances with groups that have just the right class buffs with uber gear, potions etc. that throws things out of whack.</P> <P> </P> <P>Why they feel the need to nerf the regular player/group when the problem really is the uber group is beyond me. If the problem really is that some groups can achieve 400 strength or agility and unbalance the game why not deal only with those? When they change effectiveness of armor and shields at all levels, cap stats at low levels and remove parry altogether from some classes they are screwing over everyone instead of addressing the problem. Wouldn't it make more sense to set a cap which prevents anyone from being unhittable yet leaves the 99% of players not trying to exploit unaffected?</P>

[batter_then]

/cheer Rockem, i agree <div></div>

[Sebastien]

<span><blockquote><hr>SageMarrow wrote:<div></div>  <div>So understand me, i speak upon what i see.</div><hr></blockquote> You speak about your perceptions.  Which is fine.  I am just asking you to recognize that they are perceptions, which may differ from others. On another thread you told me all classes are the same in this game.  In this thread you are telling me they are extremely different and very imbalanced.  So which is it?  If they are all the same then they cannot be out of balance. The active group in SoH is all around 40, give or take.  My main hit 40 a week or two ago, and I have had his exp turned off since then.  Why?  I think with vitality you level way too fast in this game, and I like to see content when it feels exciting or dangerous, not when it is green or grey.  But that is just my style of play. My own point of view on class balance issues is based on being a leader of a team.  I have to think about what each subclass can contribute to a raid force, or to a full party, or even to a duo or trio, and try to bring out the best from my teammates.  That is a very different perspective from playing one class and wanting it to be better than it is. I have my own views of things SOE does "right" and things they do "wrong".. no I don't think the game is perfect, but I think it is a great game, and I do believe the way they are approaching these combat changes is smart, on paper.  The details are still being tweaked, and that's fine. </span><div></div>

[Tsoe]

<DIV>After reading the details of the changes all I can say is "*$%#&!?"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a dirge, my buffs and debuffs are about agility/avoidance/parry...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"There will be no way to buff parry skill above your current cap"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then why do I have buffs to do just that? And what will replace them? (or are you just going to [Removed for Content] our buffs by removing those components so that they do even less? Half our abilities don't even include the components they were intended to already! We have an entire line of rear attacks that are supposed to give us haste on a successful strike - that don't.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If my group agility buffs are pointless - and my self buffs for parry skill no longer increase my parry skill - and my debuffing of my enemies' agility is pointless.. why does my class even exist? To help people run faster? I mean, if you want someone with evac in your group - are you going to take a gimped bard, or someone who can DoT the mobs and throw in some heals?</DIV>

[MaenaBowy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BlackHair wrote:<BR> <DIV>I challenge any assassin to simultaneously do the following:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Solo a mob</DIV> <DIV>2) Run your power bar to less than 40%</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No matter how hard I try (Macro'd HO's,etc.)...I just can't do it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Because we only get 4 frontal attacks (with long timers).  So one of our "perks" is to increase our power capacity by increasing agility. I say BIG DEAL! I could have unlimited power, but the fact of the matter is....I can't even tap into the power I have. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So I recommend to scouts to do the following:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Forget about agility.</STRONG> There is nothing helpful about it now:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is no longer:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Im providing a meaningful defensive attributes</DIV> <DIV>2) Is of importance with repect to power capacity because of the forementioned reason.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Concentrate on building strength and stamina instead</STRONG>. Both ofwhich provide more benefit than our <STRONG>supposed primary</STRONG> attribute..agility.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sheeesh!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>meh.</P> <P>IMO that's been true all along, one of the reasons why I've, as a ranger, put everything into STR that I could.  We're a damage class.  STR has always equaled damage.  agi was always more useful for tanks than for us, because it contributed to tankability.  Once you have enough agi for power, rest goes to str.</P>

[BlackHa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MaenaBowyer wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BlackHair wrote:<BR> <DIV>I challenge any assassin to simultaneously do the following:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Solo a mob</DIV> <DIV>2) Run your power bar to less than 40%</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No matter how hard I try (Macro'd HO's,etc.)...I just can't do it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Because we only get 4 frontal attacks (with long timers).  So one of our "perks" is to increase our power capacity by increasing agility. I say BIG DEAL! I could have unlimited power, but the fact of the matter is....I can't even tap into the power I have. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So I recommend to scouts to do the following:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Forget about agility.</STRONG> There is nothing helpful about it now:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is no longer:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Im providing a meaningful defensive attributes</DIV> <DIV>2) Is of importance with repect to power capacity because of the forementioned reason.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Concentrate on building strength and stamina instead</STRONG>. Both ofwhich provide more benefit than our <STRONG>supposed primary</STRONG> attribute..agility.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sheeesh!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>meh.</P> <P>IMO that's been true all along, one of the reasons why I've, as a ranger, put everything into STR that I could.  We're a damage class.  STR has always equaled damage.  agi was always more useful for tanks than for us, because it contributed to tankability.  Once you have enough agi for power, rest goes to str.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Did the developers intend that people start rolling Trolls and Ogres to be the agile scouts that they envisioned? Conversely, if a Ratonga or Wood Elf, isn't suitable for scout, then what are they suitable for? I guess they will work well on the role play servers. </P> <P>So this is what I envision...An Ogre assassin wearling a Ruckas robe (remember that they plan on armor determining avoidance now), that chooses strength for every possible trait upgrade. BLEH!!!!</P>

[Tami]

<P>To those Scouts asking for 'utility', I ask you reconsider a blanket statement like that and consider the following:</P> <P>1) Fighters are to Priests as Scouts are to Mages</P> <P>2) Bards are to Enchanters as Wiz/Worlocks are to Ranger/Asn's .. further Wiz/Worlocks are to 'magic' damage as Ranger/Asn are to 'Melee' Damage.</P> <P>3) Rangers are to bows are Asn's are to DW Piercers.</P> <P>When you put that into perspective, we can get away from the Mage > Scout mentality and get a balance in this game that is more effective and gives each set of a classes a varriance in thier roles.  If want to be 'utility' as a scout .. dont play a Pred, choose Rogue (little more utility) or a Bard (lots of utility) ... same varriance exists if choose the Mage class.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Valta]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>BlackHair wrote:</P> <P><BR>Did the developers intend that people start rolling Trolls and Ogres to be the agile scouts that they envisioned? Conversely, if a Ratonga or Wood Elf, isn't suitable for scout, then what are they suitable for? I guess they will work well on the role play servers.</P> <P>So this is what I envision...An Ogre assassin wearling a Ruckas robe (remember that they plan on armor determining avoidance now), that chooses strength for every possible trait upgrade. BLEH!!!!</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>this sort of arguments is the best, but SOE is completely ignoring it. you know, they will always state "its all for the best of the game" (even when its completely stupid), just because they dont have the guts to say they were wrong.</P> <P>there were made a ton of balance mistakes that cripled a lot of classes, but were they fixed in some of the following patches? no, they say it works all fine, but the 300.000 players say they are wrong, but SOE still means all of us are just dreaming ...<BR></P>

[fur]

<DIV>Race has very little impact in the long run on what amount of damage you do as a scout , even if you compare a ratonga vs a ogre the differance in actual strength at level 50 with equal gear is 20 points (both taking strength choices and adding in the fact that a ogre can choose strength as a race trait its still only 20 points), and as long as you can get up to 150 strength with selfbuffs and items the actual differance in dps is extremly small.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But strength has always been the primary damage attribute in this game when it comes to dealing physical damage its nothing the devs implemented the last week or so, strength = higher melee damage, simple as that and that should not be news to anyone who have played the game or actually read the manual.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now im not sure scout's are doing the damage we are supposed to be doing compared to warriors, however that has nothing to do with how strength works in this game. I have faith that balancing will put us just where we should be dps wise, neglecting to put points in strength just cause we draw our power from the agility stat is not a very wise decision nor argument.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Only thing key attribute means is that that is the stat the class archetype draws power from, nothing else.</DIV>

[Fenic]

<DIV>Here is an example of Rog's dps VS fighter's dps in antoncia instan AL fight few days ago...</DIV> <DIV>lvl 50 Brigand and swash with prismatic weapon was doing around 110-120 dps in 15mins fight, and guess wut dps did fighter do?</DIV> <DIV>Monk did around 180dps and Guardian did around 160-170dps !</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hello devs !</DIV> <DIV>U know how bad we scout looks in raid now ? I thought scout suppose to be best melee dps in eq2, but hell no ! we r not even close to fighter's dps right now !</DIV>

[BlackHa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> furok wrote:<BR> <DIV>Race has very little impact in the long run on what amount of damage you do as a scout , even if you compare a ratonga vs a ogre the differance in actual strength at level 50 with equal gear is 20 points (both taking strength choices and adding in the fact that a ogre can choose strength as a race trait its still only 20 points), and as long as you can get up to 150 strength with selfbuffs and items the actual differance in dps is extremly small.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But strength has always been the primary damage attribute in this game when it comes to dealing physical damage its nothing the devs implemented the last week or so, strength = higher melee damage, simple as that and that should not be news to anyone who have played the game or actually read the manual.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now im not sure scout's are doing the damage we are supposed to be doing compared to warriors, however that has nothing to do with how strength works in this game. I have faith that balancing will put us just where we should be dps wise, neglecting to put points in strength just cause we draw our power from the agility stat is not a very wise decision nor argument.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Only thing key attribute means is that that is the stat the class archetype draws power from, nothing else.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I maintain that:</P> <P>If agilty is useless (especially in light of avoidance being determined by armor type)</P> <P>And damage is vital.....then of course people are going to neglect the high agility races. 20 points is 20 points. Points that can be spent elsewhere when purchasing equipables. </P> <P>If we are only using our key attributes for determining power pool, then I can live with that. The problem is that I can't spend my power pool. I have stated this time and again in this thread...and that is the focal point of what I'm trying to get at.  If agility is my primary attribute, then give me some attacks to use up my power pool with.</P> <P>I would even go as far to say that if I did have more attacks, and could use up my power pool, then those who put their efforts into building strength would be so envious of my new found DPS, that perhaps they may even start to cry foul on these boards.</P> <P>I will pit a string of combat arts against another's increased attack rating any day. And combat arts just don't relate to damage either. They provide a whole slew of benefits as well. I really hope the day comes when I have that extra power to compensate for (or even do better than)  those muscle bound scouts. The devs have hinted at a scout revamp....and I think my time will come.  And I hope they have paid keen attention to this thread as well.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Boink1]

<DIV>Atm, raid-level scouts are [Removed for Content]. We're asked to sit out of Epic encounters and rightly so.  I mean, the most uber encounter in the game can't be hit by a scout unless they use Boxing-Glove arrows.  The scouts of my guild feel nearly usless as we see a Zerker or Bruiser outdps by 100 (heck they tripple our DPS on pierce immune mobs).  We're all desperately waiting for a patch-message that validates our EQ2 existence (either that or just quitting EQ2).  Instead, we see nerf after nerf.  Heck, we dont' even care anymore that we're being nerfed on broken (to our advantage) skills or nerfed on things we don't use: damnit, Scouts are [Removed for Content] and we're still being nerfed.  What the heck?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Atm, I really don't have much reason to play.  If enough non-scouts are online to play (and recently that's been the case), the scouts are asked to sit out.  I don't blame the raid-leader.  Why take a scout to a Darathar fight?  Even if I were allowed into the raid, I'd feel guilty doing my piddly DPS and asking for raid loot.  Of course, I can't ignore the WONDERFUL UTILITY that I offer.  Ooooo, Pathfinding, which though can't work in combat, doesn't have to since it's usless for an Epic fight anyway.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Atm, this game isn't fun.  Pls make it fun again.  Pls.</DIV>

[Nibbl]

<P> </P><p>Message Edited by Nibblar on <span class=date_text>08-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:35 AM</span>

[IsmeldaLasomb]

Fear. This is all i feel when SOE says it will "look into" or "fix" and even "give some lovin" to a class. It's a fact that the more you grow in level, the lessen you are what you made your character for. With the majority of skills not upgading correctly (apprentive vs adept or Master version having no significant improve) and with high end mobs being more and more resistant to our damage type (slashing/piercing/poison), we end as being.... tracker. It is the only thing we have left that no class can imitate (for now). And even that one does not scale really, same little range, no epic mob, sort by name messys with levels. Well even if i know that in the end it will be fine (2 or 3 years from now) for now i fear that the class will be less and less fun to play. The Major problem is that tank class do same or better DPS than us. For mage it is normal, it is their job, but tank should be what they are made for = meat shield. Now they are effectively meat shield, some even very great at it, but they are also DPS. Agilty is my primary attribute, so let me use it to be able to avoid damage on solo low green/high grey mob. Any high grey caster mob (just turned grey or did it one level before) can own me. Either you consider to give those mobs a green factor due to the fact they can still beat you, either you make it so we can really pawn them as the consider message tell us.  Why do we take less damage from a grey in melee situation but same damage from magical effect ? Of course thiis is true for every class but other classes have heals (healers), higher resistances (mages) or higher HP (fighters). Each have a way to avoid those killing spells but scout. Lets not this current state of fight go live, be it in update #7 or #8. It is really really  the bane of scout. Not even mentionning the no inv hail. <div></div>

[Zholain]

<span><blockquote><hr>Nibblar wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div><font size="2"> <p>This post only deals with MELEE damage relating to DEFENSE between classes. (DEFENSIVE CLASS BALANCING)</p> <p>When it comes to tanking and defense scouts should be NERFED as well as mages and priests. A group that is within the appropriate levels for gaining experience together should fall within their defined roles. Example, a level 40 fighter should out tank a level 46 scout, mage, and priest and be the main tank for the group. Right now a scout as little as 2 levels higher then a fighter is a better tank then the tank. Example level 40 tank versus a level 42 scout, the scout will get hit less and mitigate more damage, regardless of what the persona stats show. BTW I play characters from each class and have witnessed this first hand. If you don’t believe me try it, scouts group with a lower level fighter and MT, your healers will love you. Additionally, with all the arrows shots and behind attacks, maintaining aggro is easy with a scout, even with large groups of 3-4 mobs (not suggesting this is a problem, I agree with scout offensive abilities, just saying it helps with the overall tanking ability).</p> <p>I play a level 40 guardian and group regularly with my ranger friend (currently 46) since EQ II launched. My ranger friend has always been higher then my guardian by 1-6 levels and has always tanked for the group. Why? He takes less damage and makes life easier for the healers, the ranger is a better TANK for the group.  BTW, at even levels the fighter is a better tank then a scout!</p> <p>EQ II developers look at EQ I, tanks are tanks, no other class even compares and they shouldn’t. The roles are well defined and appropriate. </p> <p>I also have a level 40 warden. The warden tanks almost as good at my level 40 guardian on green solo mobs. The warden should get the crapped kicked out of him, but he gets hit only slightly more often and only for a little more damage per hit. </p> <p>One suggestion, adjust the defense and parry skills significantly and scale them accordingly based on level and class.</p> <p>Level 40 Defense SkillFighter = 200Scout = 180Priest = 160Mage = 140</p> <p>Level 40 Parry SkillFighter = 180 or 190Scout = 200Priest = 140Mage = 120</p> <p>This means mages and priests will not melee mobs to death that are BARELY grey to them anymore, they will have to of been grey for several levels to accomplish this.  This will also make fighters better tanks then scouts, even when the group levels are to the extreme boundries, i.e. lvl 40 fighter lvl 46 scout.  Scouts should have some group tanking ability, but only on moderate to lower mobs, i.e. blue ^^ and lower and solo higher level mobs, no white^^, yellow^^, or red ^^.</p> <p>Remember when you FLAME my post this only pertains to MELEE damage relating to DEFENSE. It doesn’t take into account offensive abilities or defensive magic mitigation, ONLY defensive class balancing.</p> <p>L40 GuardianL40 WardenL25 NecroL30 Ranger</p></font> <p>Message Edited by Nibblar on <span class="date_text">04-19-2005</span> <span class="time_text">12:55 AM</span></p> <p>Message Edited by Nibblar on <span class="date_text">04-19-2005</span> <span class="time_text">01:25 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Nibblar on <span class="date_text">04-19-2005</span> <span class="time_text">01:30 AM</span></p><hr><font size="2"><font face="Arial"> I must respectfully disagree with you.  Although I am only a 32 Ranger, I have seen and spoken with enough higher level rangers regarding our tanking ability to get a pretty good feel of what we're capable of.  A ranger of 40 will never tank better than a 38 paladin/guardian/zerker.  Pre-agility nerf.....maybe.  But not now.  No way, no how.  Sure we get hit less, but not that much less.  Not against a mob that actually poses any sort of challenge to the group.  Go out and try to solo an even-con, no up-arrow mob.  You'll probably win with the ranger, but you'll be half-health or a little less.  Now watch the same level fighter class behind you take the same mob without even breaking a sweat. Don't get me wrong.  I don't want to tank.  </font></font><span><font size="2"><font face="Arial">If I did, I'd play my guardian alt a little more.  </font></font></span><font size="2"><font face="Arial">That's not my job.  My job is to bring the mob's health down as quickly as possible, without drawing agro.  What I do want is for my agility to provide the benefits that it should provide.  That includes parry and avoidance.  As an agile individual, I should move more quickly in everything I do than a muscle-bound brute is capable of.  Not necessarily faster, just quicker.  I carry lighter weapons to suit this capability.  I don't wear heavy armor in order to enhance this capability(I won't go into the armor changes...lets just say that I like my feysteel chain). I think what scouts/predator types are most upset about is the fact that we've already been hurt very badly by one 'fix' to this game.  And we're just concerned...nay, very concerned...about more changes that on the surface seem to have the effect of nerfing our agility even more.  I love playing my ranger...I can't pull myself away to play any of my alts.  But we keep having to adapt(which is no big deal) and make sacrifices(which is a very big deal) in order to make playing our class fun and to be effective.  In the end, we simply want to contribute to our guilds, be effective in group play, and solo as effectively as other classes.  That's not greed.  That is simply class balance, and what every class desires. Sorry.  I'm off my high-horse now. </font></font></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Sokolov]

<DIV>So let me get this straight...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AGILITY reduces damage taken by increasing MITIGATION...</DIV> <DIV>and</DIV> <DIV>ARMOR reduces damage taken by increasing AVOIDANCE?!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Did someone make a typo?</DIV>

[MakhailSamma]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Boink182 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Atm, raid-level scouts are [Removed for Content]. We're asked to sit out of Epic encounters and rightly so.  I mean, the most uber encounter in the game can't be hit by a scout unless they use Boxing-Glove arrows.  The scouts of my guild feel nearly usless as we see a Zerker or Bruiser outdps by 100 (heck they tripple our DPS on pierce immune mobs).  We're all desperately waiting for a patch-message that validates our EQ2 existence (either that or just quitting EQ2).  Instead, we see nerf after nerf.  Heck, we dont' even care anymore that we're being nerfed on broken (to our advantage) skills or nerfed on things we don't use: damnit, Scouts are [Removed for Content] and we're still being nerfed.  What the heck?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Atm, I really don't have much reason to play.  If enough non-scouts are online to play (and recently that's been the case), the scouts are asked to sit out.  I don't blame the raid-leader.  Why take a scout to a Darathar fight?  Even if I were allowed into the raid, I'd feel guilty doing my piddly DPS and asking for raid loot.  Of course, I can't ignore the WONDERFUL UTILITY that I offer.  Ooooo, Pathfinding, which though can't work in combat, doesn't have to since it's usless for an Epic fight anyway.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Atm, this game isn't fun.  Pls make it fun again.  Pls.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>PLZ!

[Nibbl]

<P> </P><p>Message Edited by Nibblar on <span class=date_text>04-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:18 PM</span>

[Silvo]

<DIV>I chose to play a halfling scout. Why? Agility is supposedly important. Then the great nerf sledgehammer hit. I've been out dps'd by a monk 5 levels below me. Killed by grey casters that nuke for 2k+ while trying to do a quest. Had to escape from a fight that a guardian the same level as me said "Oh that's easy you won't have any problems." I get to constantly blow cash on poison to attempt to keep subpar dps inline with everybody else yet I am givien no way to earn extra cash to offset it. If SOE ever bothers to look at hours played they'll find in the last week or so mine are way down. I'm frustrated with the weakness of my scout versus other classes and I have no desire to level up another character. I'll wait and see how bad this #7 hurts and if it is another change that proves the devs have no clue I guess it's time to find a new game to play.</DIV>

[Langel]

Nibblar, levels matter A LOT because con levels matter a lot in this game. That said, I sincerely question what you just posted. You seem to be commenting re: Live servers so I'll add my own, very recent experience to the pool. I play a level 46 swashbuckler in all orange armor (including an imbued BP with the heal over time). I was xp'ing with a level 42 paladin and a level 46 templar last night in EF. Whenever the templar or I were jumped, those mobs *ate* us. We would drop to yellow with the first couple hits and orange was quick to follow. The paladin (4 levels lower than both of us and in worse gear) was <b>much </b>better at tanking - as she should be. Right now, even in live, my class (swashbuckler - the scouts who cannot kite) cannot kill t5s above blue no-arrows. Arrow mobs and yellow cons eat us alive. FWIHW, we are one of the worst soloing classes out there and we were originally designed to be one of the best solo/duo classes. Furthermore, tanking was supposed to be my classes main advantage in balance vs. the other scouts. I have been given numerous taunt CAs at every tier. I currently have 3 full-on taunt abilities in active rotation plus another 2 taunt-debuff abilities. Why was I given these abilities instead of DPS or some other utility if I am never supposed to use them? <div></div>

[Zholain]

<div></div><font size="2"><font face="Arial">I have tried it.  If I hadn't, I wouldn't have posted. Read the scout boards. Edit:  And before you question my gear...I'm level 32 with all pristine feysteel(imbued where possible) armor and weapons.  Unbuffed agility is 120, self buffed is 151.  My guild wants me along when they go out, a testament that I am at least competent in fulfilling my role.  But they want me as a ranger...not a tank. If you'll read my other posts, you'll clearly see that I am not an adversarial person.  I am not stating this case because I like to disagree.  But you have brooched a subject that I feel very strongly about.  We can not tank anything that cons above even, or anything above green ^^. </font></font><div></div><p>Message Edited by Zholain on <span class=date_text>04-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:23 PM</span>

[Nibbl]

<P> </P><p>Message Edited by Nibblar on <span class=date_text>08-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:00 AM</span>

[mayhem111]

<DIV>On live servers I do tank with my friends most of the time.  My swash is 47 atm.  The only reason I try to tank is the defense stacking of the guardian at lvl 40.  With his buffs I go from 238 def to 262.  Along with my friends 44 monk we can kill 44 and under no problems because of the guards defense powers.  Add along to that the guardians and monks abilities to take some of the damage I would normally take we usually come out of a fight all in the green.  We usually hunt nightbloods in rivervale.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nashar Spinecutter of guk</DIV> <DIV>47 swashbuckler</DIV>

[Zholain]

<font size="1"><font face="Arial"><font size="2">I told you...I have.  RoV..Cove of Decay: Prison Break most recently..4 days ago. But...I concede...you're right, and everyone else is wrong.  Every post regarding this on the scouts' boards are wrong. *sigh*  (That sentiment is out of character for me.) Let's just leave it like this...You've had your own experiences, and I've had mine.  I believe that the majority of my fellow scouts, rangers in particular, would most likely say they have had experiences similar to mine.  I don't know everything.  Neither do you.  I detest going back and forth like this.  As I stated previously, I do not wish to be argumentative.  To the topic of this thread, I agree.  Agility in this game does not seem to have the impact on a character that we traditionally see in an RPG.  It seems as if SOE has developed the combat system in a way that they have coded their way into sort a lock.  They can not make the changes in a manner that seem logical to most of us, therefore, they make the changes  the way that they can to meet their vision of what the combat should be.  Which happens to stink in a lot players' opinions. </font></font></font><div></div>

[Nibbl]

<P> </P><p>Message Edited by Nibblar on <span class=date_text>08-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:36 AM</span>

[Zholain]

<font size="2"><font face="Arial">Hiya Nibblar. /strongly agree.  I think we're all of the opinion that these sweeping combat changes just don't seem logical.  I hope the game will continue to be as much fun as it has been up until this point. "</font></font><font size="2">I find it hard to believe SOE will nerf AGI and STR for the associated classes and only use armor type as a factor." I can't tell you how much this would frustrate me.  When I think about this, I get so angry, that I nearly forget that it is a game.  It is so difficult not to post directly to the devs explaining how utterly idiotic this is.  But there's no way that I could maintian my composure long enough to finish it.  And besides, it would just fall on deaf ears, it seems. Thanks Nibblar.  GL! </font><div></div>

[Langel]

Nibblar, good way to keep a debate positive. I applaud that. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> We disagree on some key points but that happens. The only thing that I would continue to debate with you a bit is the notion that not all classes were meant to solo. When this game was released, SOE explicitly stated that all classes WOULD be able to solo and, especially, to function in small group environments. Part of the advertising for the game was that it would match all styles of play. Do I think that will change? Yeah, it probably has to.. Now even. But do I think the WAY that changes is important. Heck ya! <div></div>

[Sokolov]

<DIV>My level 25 Ranger on Mistmoore has tanked and holds hate better than many tanks up to this level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>She has the best armor money can buy - full steel.  And 3 rare proc imbued weapons.  But should gear really make me a tank??</DIV><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class=date_text>04-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:59 AM</span>

[BlackHa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Langeloc wrote:<BR>Nibblar, good way to keep a debate positive. I applaud that. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> We disagree on some key points but that happens.<BR><BR>The only thing that I would continue to debate with you a bit is the notion that not all classes were meant to solo. When this game was released, SOE explicitly stated that all classes WOULD be able to solo and, especially, to function in small group environments. Part of the advertising for the game was that it would match all styles of play. Do I think that will change? Yeah, it probably has to.. Now even. But do I think the WAY that changes is important. Heck ya!<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR> SOE has been putting a great deal of effort into making the game more enjoyable for soloers and small groups. They do this because the market dictates it. Though Langeloc believes all classes were not meant to solo, the game has evolved to  become more solo friendly.  So it is not surprizing that people will complain when a particular class is gimped at soloing. </P> <P> I play 7 different toons. Far and away, my assassin is the worst at soloing. Perfect balance between classes will never be achieved (nor should it), but when the gap between the solo ability of an assassin and a beserker (or necro) is so vast, then of course changes need to be made.  People want to solo and they want flexibility with choosing archetypes. To deny one of the two will alienate a portion of the community...and of course they will bring their argument here.</P>

[John_Hammerhand]

<P>I want to put my 2 cents in as a Monk. This change will affest Monks as well as Scouts because we rely on avoidance instead of mitigation. I have always thought Monks/bruisers should have been put in the Scout class. They share most of the same traits. BUT, scouts have an advantage Monks don't. Monks cannot wear medium armor. Scouts get mitigation and avoidance. Be glad if all you get is a penalty for wearing heavier armor. I can't wear it at all and I'm a tank. This nerf is going to hurt monks more than scouts. We rely solely on AGI to stay alive. I chose a wood elf because of the high AGI and have only added to that stat so that I could dodge blows and stay alive. That is the ONLY way a Monk can tank. SOE just doesn't know when to quit.</P> <P>I think SOE is screwing the scouts over, don't get me wrong. But, I think in doing so, monk/bruisers are the ones REALLY getting screwed.</P>

[Faoite]

<DIV>Woohoo, they snuck it in this latest patch that we lost hailing while sneaking. Not as huge an issue as the rest of it, just another little nerf for us.:smileysad:</DIV>

[Alpheratz]

<DIV>It is UNBELIVABLE what you are doing to our class since release, countless nerf, I TOUGH you had learned your lesson in EQ1 , never CHANGE drstically things after months because only result you get are unhappy cusotomers and less customers.</DIV> <DIV>Now tell me what all these sthealt or direct or indirect nerf are good for?</DIV> <DIV>I already notieced a BIG very BIG difference friom when i was playing my character in february and now, since i levelled very few for lack of time is not a question of mobs that i fight or levels. the same mobs 2 month ago where doable now they are very hard-</DIV> <DIV>What you do BETATEST for?</DIV> <DIV>How much this NERF will go one years months?</DIV> <DIV>Do you plan to do the same you have done in EQ1 tell me as i can cancel right now (customer since 1999)</DIV> <DIV>Do you want one class that after all the nerfs no one invite in groups?</DIV> <DIV>What are you looking for?</DIV> <DIV>Do you want to ruin the fun?</DIV> <DIV>Why don't you fix broken styles and change the one that work?</DIV> <DIV>Don't you where supposed to work on Content only?</DIV> <DIV>Do the live team is scared to be fired if they dont have anymore change to do?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont know what up but I am starting to be really annoyed by this fear of nerf once again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My str as a ratonga is not great so my damage will suffer + now agility is not what used to be = no no</DIV> <DIV>Scout have never had high str they do damage based on their attack styles if you start to change all this their damage will go down but their ablity to tank dont go up so what they are for?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have posted a question about reuse timers on anothe rpost also do you have raised them ? some of them used to refresh almost instantly now they can be used once in a fight or maybe 2, depend on the fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ruse, I dont know what it was once, but i have it on adept 1 and hit for 350 average ppl told me he used to hit for 800? maybe on grays and so no xp mobs?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Arrows: what are bow good for only to pull? with 5-7 seconds from a shot to another?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also other thing that now being tired I dont have time to post..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit: take this form someone that may be really just change game, no biggy..but you are ruinning your own game if you start to revolution anything, I was impressed when i started on how well you have done your class/subclass thing, all was well balanced I have never eard anybody telling they had problems eiter group or solo, now with all these drastic changes you are confusing peoples and making them pretty much obliged to change all theri equipment and not just that you are ruining your own game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Alpheratz on <SPAN class=date_text>04-22-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:21 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Alpheratz on <span class=date_text>04-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:54 PM</span>

[IsmeldaLasomb]

<P>Maybe the point of all this changes is for the so waited "PvP". To lower all classes to same level.</P> <P>Well, some are not so lowered to be honest. I saw a lvl 44 Warlock soloing a lvl 48^^ Tundra Terror without problem when i am wacked by a low green ^^ (level 43^^ when i am lvl 4<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> if i am caught by surprise.</P> <P>What to expect is more "nerf" for all classes i fear. Scouts are the first to be tortured by SOE, we will not be the last. It is a fact that they keep doing this, making something at release and change it from the beginning to the end after. Well, we just have to take the habit of it because they will not change.</P> <P>All the points of being scouts are gone for me. </P> <P>DPS : we loose it in favor of fighters</P> <P>Evac : Druids, SK, Mages anyone can do it</P> <P>Group Invisibility : Druids, Illuso can do it</P> <P>Disarm trap : who cares</P> <P>Track : All have eyes and people know where the mobs are. It is range limited, not tracking epic... nearly worthless</P> <P>What is a scout good for ? I really don't see. Don't get me wrong, i like my assassin, i enjoy playing it, but we clearly have no role in the game. When i saw the awesome usefullness of some class (coercers which even if despised are really a must have in a group, any tank, any healer but shamans) some classes really have nothing to offer that any other class can do equally or better.</P> <P>All that is left is role playing, friends and guild. At least they can't nerf that. They can't, can they ?</P>

[Langel]

<span><blockquote><hr>IsmeldaLasombra wrote:<p>Maybe the point of all this changes is for the so waited "PvP". To lower all classes to same level.</p> </blockquote>A berserker in my guild does the same DPS as me WHILE tanking. . He is level 40. I am 47. This is according to that online windowed damage parser.</span><div></div>

[IsmeldaLasomb]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Langeloc wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IsmeldaLasombra wrote:<BR> <P>Maybe the point of all this changes is for the so waited "PvP". To lower all classes to same level.</P><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>A berserker in my guild does the same DPS as me WHILE tanking. . He is level 40. I am 47. This is according to that online windowed damage parser.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well as i said "maybe". I am as sad as you to see fighter becoming DPS and scout becoming nothing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Note : A one star ninja came by. Now i have to put 5 stars to everyone to compensate. At least he can't one stared me again for this post <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><p>Message Edited by IsmeldaLasombra on <span class=date_text>04-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:00 AM</span>

[Raznic]

<DIV>I didn't read through the whole thread yet, but I have to say I agree with the earlier comments. Rangers just don't solo well at all, White con's at 30+ can be deadly even blues or greens present a real challange. Forget ^^'s altogether unless you can kite them which seems pointless to me as you can do it in so few circumstances.</DIV> <DIV>Take for instance the fifth trial for SBS. My guild was preparing for a DFC raid and a 33 Shadow knight did the trial ok, a 35 warden again no probs but I again manage to solo it ok at 39. I would have wanted to try it any earlier as I upgraded armour to tier4 at 39 to complete the trial.</DIV> <DIV>There needs to be some balance, we are fine in a group, we just need some refinements for soloability. I have tried the stun/ invis/ backstab type attacks, but haven't been able to complete them, and they wouldn't work on multiple mobs anyway. AGI should count for higher avoidance, my avoidance is 60 odd buffed at 188 agi, while a monk is 70+ at 130 odd at the same level? that doesn't sound fair.</DIV> <DIV>A chance to invis during combat facing mobs and AGI related avoidance would seem to be in line with the scout arhcitype. These also would give us no real extra advantage in groups.</DIV>

[TinckTrink]

<P>I still think the answer to all of EQ2's combat problems could be easily solved by switching STR to defensive stat and AGI to offensive.</P> <DIV>All of the classes that are supposed to be defensive have natural STR.  All melee classes that are supposed to be DPS have natural AGI.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Problem solved.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And for anyone who thinks STR doesn't make sense as defensive stat, consider maneuvering a tower sheild, parrying an epic's Wild Swing, or even weilding heavy armor.  They are all strenth based skills.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You could then also give AGI bonuses to wearing lighter armor as had been already planned.  This gives all melee's an optional boost to dps if they are not required to tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I really hope somebody considers this.  It solves the problem, without presenting 10 more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Alpheratz]

<DIV>If you think at it this STR defensive thing make sense, I agree that could solve a lot of problems, is also against the concept of a scout to need him to have high str, a scout is a light armored agile but strenght is sure not is characteristic...so if you need to build str on him why just dont make a berserker?</DIV> <DIV>And please soe, review the timers on the styles some especially the one we use to solo are now to slow to refresh, I can hunt orange mobs 4 levels higher than me with my inquisitor but i have problem to hunt white with my scout now, but it used to be different before all these changes.</DIV> <DIV>If you make more soloable mobs in the world but then reduce our ability to solo this do not make any sense. </DIV> <DIV>One of the latest changes you have made on the mobs that now hit much more fast is part of the problem, you say they hit for less but in the end the damage that they do to you his higher than before.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Alpheratz on <span class=date_text>04-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:16 PM</span>