Priests losing parry....(and more thoughts)

[Despa]

<DIV>I really am concerned about this.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- First off..inquisitors already get blessed with being able to wear plate armor.  The rest of us get shafted and have to wear light armor. And now our ability to avoid the hits coming at us is going to be lost as well?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Why can't the new plate mail theory (plate mail people get hit more often while very light armorer's can avoid more often) apply to everyone?  Why single out the Priest? Seems like this is going to go far from the "priest class balancing" that we have all been expecting since Inquisitors have the plate armor.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also....I don't agree with the idea of "caps".  The game is supposed to be a real place...something you can get completely emmersed in.....close to reality......heh...in my lifetime...I have never had some overhead rule say I couldn't get stronger or better in some way...doesn't make sense.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[ErroneousFr]

<DIV><FONT size=2>In any weapon based martial art you learn how to use a weapon both to attack and defend. Why would you remove the ability to defend with a weapon from one particular class? This really does not make sense. I agree that a figther would be better at parrying than a priest or a mage but that should not mean that the other classes do not know how to do it.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>My 2 (pick your currency) worth.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>

[Druzgotek]

<P>Hmm, why are you singling out Inquisitors? Templars also wear heavy armor.</P> <P>Second, Templars and Inquisitors get the least amount of hitpoints, It is what they give up for ability to wear heavy armor. Shamans get medium hitpoints, and druids get the most.</P> <P>Lastly, Inquisitors and Templars are also priests, and lose pary as well.</P> <P>So what exactly is this complaint about?</P>

[imready2go]

<P>All the priest archtypes got screwed.  No other way to put it.  Wardens like me can still avoid (since we wear the lighter armor) but will die in one hit since we have no mitigation.  Templar/Inquis have the mitigation, but are going to get pounded since they now have no avoidance.  Plus none of us has a counter attack (parry) now.  And of course, we still agro like crazy.</P> <P>I'm less sure if the changes will screw us more during soloing or grouping, but either way it hurts.</P>

[Tami]

<DIV>IMO your asking for the wrong benifit here.  Priests are really not melee combatants (the Pally is your varriant of that honestly) .. and parry really is not appropriate.  HOWEVER, access to Kite shields would be an appropriate benifit you should be receiving and achives what I think your asking for.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ADDED:  Honestly this is not just a Cleric issue, but personally Clerics = Kites, Shammy (all chain) = Round, Druids = Bucklers.  Like fighters, the dodge skill should be Druids > Shammy > Clerics .. this would give the cross class balances in that area.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Tamian on <span class=date_text>04-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:33 PM</span>

[Tanyla]

<P>I agree with the fact that priest classes are getting the screws put to them,  but don't forget these parry changes are affecting mage type also.  Having even less hit points and very light armor most mobs just exhale on them and they go down. </P> <P>I have a Coercer lvl 47</P> <P>Bruiser lvl 24</P> <P>Warden 21</P> <P>and a Templar lvl 20</P> <P>I get little chance these days to play with my bruiser as  there are no healers that range in my guild, so I am working a healer up to help those still in that level range.  Any and every class SHOULD be able to parry and what they wear  should be what determines how often it is successful.   Agility, freedom of movement, speed, should factor into the equasion on if a player see's and can counteract an attact to parry it effectively.  Heavy plate I see as a deterant , chain/medium a little more easy to move in, both have mitigation and their armor can take more of the pounding where say Leather is flexible, easy to menouver in but can not take the pounding,  same for cloth wearers.  I have no idea where this "mages can not parry"  comes from.  Priests can often have a choice of heavy or medium from my understanding and should still be able to parry,  but depending on armor choice depends on how it hampers their movement and if the parry is successful but out and out removing parry from Mages and priest? </P> <P>I die ALOT as a mage, for some reason I do not even have to cast a spell when the pull begins,  but stand there gritting my teath waiting for them to charge passed the tank to slap me around before the tank gets them back under controle. I SHOULD be able to try to defend myself, dodge parry, avoid some of those attacts just because I have freedom of movement  to do so cause when those attacts do land, which IS often, hell they hurt.</P> <P>/waits for rezz</P> <P> Come on, what have you all been smoking?  Can I get some?  Maybe some of these changes will look good after you all share .....</P> <P>There are a number of things I see wrong in this batch or patch.  Invis another,  why cant I go up to an npc in the middle of a pack of nasties  while invisable and whisper in his ear so as not to get the attention of all those angry mobs around him?  So long as he isn't waiting to pound on me if he can see me,  I see nothing wrong there. Many a time all that was needed was to get or end a quest with a hail and I would send a group member off safely checking for the occassional see invis mob  to hail the poor fellow surrounded by them.</P> <P>Aye many little things that at this point  of the day that make the future of adventuring Norrath seem a bit  ...  unpleasant when so many OTHER FIXES are needed to content  like quest npc's that  CANT NOT BE TARGETED to hail at all and messd up spawns or mobs in walls and spells that are broken (thank you for finally putting the fix in on coercer charmed  pets, still wish it could last longer than it does, but now not breaking the event is VERY GOOD and will make many happy) </P> <P></P> <P>Ok  done before I find another tangeant off the subject to go into  ....  just take another moment to think through some of the changes before they go to  live servers  ....</P>

[Tami]

<DIV>Tanyla,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Parry is a weapon skill, not 'dodge' like you are trying to classify it.  Heavier Armor classes, under new system (and appropriately) will have a 'negative' to avoidance (in theory) applied to them forcing more mitigation required vs the ability to avoid the incomming damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mages should not have been given the ablity to parry in the first place .. sorry. </DIV>

[Darkstar]

<P>You know sometimes I imagine all the SoE folks get together and go - "this is a great game, how can we possibly screw it up this week?" , "wait, I know - we'll undo everything positive we've done the last two months by making priests and mages paper dolls."</P> <P>Whatever your intention with high end avoidance you're screwing over Priests and Mages like theres no tomorrow.  </P> <P>I play a T4 Warden and Wizard and this patch will end my ability to duo with them and end any chance of grouping without a plate tank. </P> <P>WORSE they've both been demoted in groups now:</P> <P>1) Wizards already so-so desirability as DPS in groups will be eviscerated by this patch as any aggro will = insta-dead wizard.  So why would you take a wizard over a scout or melee for DPS - you wouldnt, ever, unless there was no choice.  Wizards wont be able to apply any DPS until the fight is already decided.  This also removes soloing as an option for wizards - which right now is in really good balance.</P> <P>2) Warden and Fury limited desirability as healers will also be destroyed.  They aggro more and will die about like wizards now.  Paper mitigation and no parry and the highest aggro heals - wonderful.</P> <P>This changes are the dumbest idea since the non-linked banking system with the error-prone couriers to transport your money - probably the same pencil-pusher dreamed this one up.  Drop this whole patch and figure out another way to solve the high level problem without screwing over everyone else in the game.</P>

[Laiina]

<DIV>What really bothers me about this is that it might be the beginning of the same long pattern that eventually made Clerics in EQ1 a "one trick pony" at high levels, suitable only for raids.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We are losing some defense, but what is going to make up for it? Are we getting better weapons, better nukes, better stun avoidance, or what?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The actual damage mitigation we get by having Parry is probably minimal - perhaps 5% at best. But it was these small percent nerfs in EQ1 that over a couple of years added up to a character that could barely solo low green mobs, and was totally dependent on groups and raids for xp or loot.</DIV>

[Scrav]

<span><blockquote><hr>Laiina wrote:<div> The actual damage mitigation we get by having Parry is probably minimal - perhaps 5% at best. But it was these small percent nerfs in EQ1 that over a couple of years added up to a character that could barely solo low green mobs, and was totally dependent on groups and raids for xp or loot.</div><hr></blockquote>Parry supposedly accounts for just under half of my avoidance as a Mystic, if the avoidance breakdown is anything to go by.  I presume it is similar for other priest classes.  I'm concerned about spell interrupts with such a large hit to avoidance.</span><div></div>

[Ramtaku]

<DIV> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#3300ff size=4><EM>We're not some chubby soft Friar Tucks that cram into our heavy armor, praying not to get hit because we can barely move.<IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif" width=16 border=0></EM></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#3300ff size=4><EM>We're INQUISTORS - iron willed with fanatical devotion to the cause of our God. </EM></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#3300ff size=4><EM>Our bodies are coiled tools that have run 100s of miles and fought countless battles. </EM></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#3300ff size=4><EM>We wear supple plate, the best available, so that we move more easily as we gain experience and strength.</EM></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#3300ff size=4><EM>Battle Priests from hell, not turtles unable to dodge a blow or parry a strike with our weapons. </EM></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN>The ability of the healing classes to "tank" makes playing a healer fun - solo and group. Scouts have their DPS and the scouts I've known have done fine without being overpowered. When I've duo'd with a scout, I cast a group debuff and then start healing myself while I get pounded and the scout rips the spine out of the mob from behind. It works well and I've never read or heard a scout complain about it - we're in heavy, usually magical, armor with other divine buffs and magic rings etc to protect us.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>The makes the healing classes less fun:</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Less fun = fewer healers.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Fewer healers = fewer groups</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Fewer groups = WoW</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>I tried WoW for two weeks and stopped because it feels like a console game with okay graphics.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>We play to be powers to be reckoned with - raining destruction upon our enemies with blows and magic, ripping them to shreads.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>The idea that we should all fit into defined "roles" is EQ1. This game has really cool sub-classes that all have a different twist that allows them to solo and contribute something unique to the group. </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Making any class less powerful and capable does not contribute to enjoyment of the game.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Make us cooler with new abilities and new spells, if we get more powerful, move up the game with AI or new mobs, mob tactics.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Come on you guys - blood and fire, not flag football.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P></DIV><p>Message Edited by Ramtaku12 on <span class=date_text>04-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:03 AM</span>

[Tami]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ramtaku12 wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P><SPAN>We're not some chubby soft Friar Tucks that cram into our heavy armor, praying not to get hit because we can barely move.<IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif" width=16 border=0></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>We're INQUISTORS - iron willed with fanatical devotion to the cause of our God. </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Our bodies are coiled tools that have run 100s of miles and fought countless battles. </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>We wear supple plate, the best available, so that we move more easily as we gain experience and strength.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Battle Priests from hell, not turtles unable to dodge a blow or parry a strike with our weapons. </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN>*also on Inquis forum - wouldn't have started it if i knew this thread was here*</SPAN></P></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You, like I as an SK, wear plate .. you are burdend by this and thus can not dodge as effectively as lets say a Monk.  You are a divine caster, leverging the will of the gods to heal and do damage . you are not a weapon weilder and thus should not have Parry.  You, however, should be able to use a Kite shield and gain the ability to block more effecitvely thus returning some of the 'avoidance' you are losing with Parry.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Ramtaku]

<DIV> <HR> </DIV> <P>you are not a weapon weilder</P> <P></P> <HR> <P> </P> <P>I beg to differ - yes I am. I've fought an incredible number of battles with my weapon type - what is a parry?</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Parry</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>1. Turn Blow Aside</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>transitive and intransitive verb:  <EM>to block or deflect the damaging effect of a blow or weapon (<FONT size=1>Encarta N.American Dictionary)</FONT></EM></FONT></P> <P>I've messed around with hand weapons and blocking a blow is one of the first things you learn, it is almost - or is - instinct.</P> <P>Anyone that handles any type of of weapon should have a chance to parry - its not like I'm expecting <SPAN>Riposte.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></P> <HR> </SPAN> <P><SPAN>You are burdend by this and thus can not dodge as effectively as lets say a Monk</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></P> <HR> </SPAN> <P>I agree, I'm not expecting that, but I am a battle healer in heavy magic armor (magic = weight reduction) that I have been wearing since my 20th season.</P> <P>It is body fitting and is not crafted of common ore by a common black-smith.</P> <P>I can't really "tank" because I have almost no melee DPS, an awesome hit at level 34 is 35 - come on, how am I a tank, just because I can take a beating?</P> <P>Do you really want your healer to take more damage then they do now when they get agro? At least now we can pop a reactive and keep ourself up while you re-establish agro.</P> <P>That is what it really boils down to from a bottom-line point of view. Healers that go down faster mean more group wipes. I really can't understand why anyone would argue for more group wipes because of a sterotypical view-point of how each class should function.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Tami]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ramtaku12 wrote:<BR> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <P>you are not a weapon weilder</P> <P></P> <HR> <P> </P> <P>I beg to differ - yes I am. I've fought an incredible number of battles with my weapon type - what is a parry?</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Parry</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>1. Turn Blow Aside</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>transitive and intransitive verb:  <EM>to block or deflect the damaging effect of a blow or weapon (<FONT size=1>Encarta N.American Dictionary)</FONT></EM></FONT></P> <P>I've messed around with hand weapons and blocking a blow is one of the first things you learn, it is almost - or is - instinct.</P> <P>Anyone that handles any type of of weapon should have a chance to parry - its not like I'm expecting <SPAN>Riposte.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></P> <HR> </SPAN> <P><SPAN>You are burdend by this and thus can not dodge as effectively as lets say a Monk</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></P> <HR> </SPAN> <P>I agree, I'm not expecting that, but I am a battle healer in heavy magic armor (magic = weight reduction) that I have been wearing since my 20th season.</P> <P>It is body fitting and is not crafted of common ore by a common black-smith.</P> <P>I can't really "tank" because I have almost no melee DPS, an awesome hit at level 34 is 35 - come on, how am I a tank, just because I can take a beating?</P> <P>Do you really want your healer to take more damage then they do now when they get agro? At least now we can pop a reactive and keep ourself up while you re-establish agro.</P> <P>That is what it really boils down to from a bottom-line point of view. Healers that go down faster mean more group wipes. I really can't understand why anyone would argue for more group wipes because of a sterotypical view-point of how each class should function.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You missed the last part of my post ... while I tend to agree with the Parry removal for priests, you should be able to mitigate that loss by use of a Kite shield.   As for group wipes, if others are taking agro off the tank .. either the tank is not good at his/her job or the member needs to better manage his/her agro.  Encounters should not be so trival that once the tank gets agro the rest can go slap happy with abilities/spells .. some skill in the later needs to exist.</P> <DIV>Added: More so, using that arugment about group wipes just does not fly .. how do you fit in Shammy and Druids into that equasion when they have far less mitigation then you do?</DIV><p>Message Edited by Tamian on <span class=date_text>04-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:50 AM</span>

[Urkra]

<DIV>IMHO removing completely parry from the priests classes it's extreme, the way it currently work (considerably lower cap than fighters on parry) was a good compromise. From there to say that all priests will become completely unable to parry any hit it's a very far stretch ...</DIV>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<DIV>25th Templar here and honestly I dont feel nerfed. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When soloing my problem has never been taking to much damage but running out of power for my nukes. So after this change instead of having 70% health and 0% power after the fight I will have probably 30% health and still 0% power which  means my downtime will be exactly the same as before.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In groups I rarely get attacked, which will probably change due tu healing aggro but the point is that it was never my avoidance, block or parry that saved me long enough for the tanks to pick up aggro again but the migitation of my vanguard plate. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In groups I usually wield a 2-handed so I dont care about buckler changes either. A larger shiled would be nice though because the wooden buckler looks rather odd on my plate-covered back <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PS: parry should rather depend on weapon not on class like: scimitar=parry, hammer=no parry</DIV><p>Message Edited by Tradeskill_Addict on <span class=date_text>04-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:59 AM</span>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<DIV>you have become better at double posting (10)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>you gain a troll level</DIV><p>Message Edited by Tradeskill_Addict on <span class=date_text>04-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:59 AM</span>

[VizP]

Yes but the point is that it affects the clerics the severest in the priest classes: 1/ You have the lowest health points of all the priest classes 2/ You have the lowest damage output of all the priest classes (hence you're running out of power on damage) 3/ AND now you will have the least avoidance of all the priest classes (plus the all priest parry removal). You say that you will have 30% health remaining on your mobs instead of the 70% before but looking at test server results from other classes, things are bleaker than that in terms of incoming damage. So when soloing was slow and tedious because of the long downtimes and slow battles from the low damageout put from clerics, you 'now' have the additional component of knowing that you may have been able to avoid a lot of damage before, this time around you are much more likely to die against things other priest classes specially shamans (medium armour, more hps, and defilers esp have a 'lot' more offence) breeze through and of courserun away fast from through SOW. And of course when you heal yourself to remove that extra damage its going from that power pool that is always short for the offence. 'That' is the stark problem affecting clerics specifically after this patch focussing on the gravity of heavy armour and low avoidance on a class that only had to allow its slow soloing. <div></div>

[jennlyle]

<P><SPAN><FONT face=Verdana color=#ffffff size=2>Dear SOE Developers,</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT face=Verdana color=#ffffff size=2>Please consider the following improvements to Priest/Shaman/Defiler classes (as applicable) before removing Parry from the Priest character class:</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT face=Verdana><FONT size=2><SPAN><SPAN>-<SPAN>         </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN>For Shaman/Defilers, improving wards either by making them less expensive, increasing # of hits it takes before knocking one down, and/or increasing damage absorbed.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Some improvements in wards that have been made have been noticed and welcome and I’d like to see the rest of the ward spells adjusted accordingly.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT face=Verdana><FONT size=2><SPAN><SPAN>-<SPAN>         </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN>For Priests, either improving # of HPs healed or making healing less expensive... especially for Defilers.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><SPAN><FONT face=Verdana color=#ffffff size=2>If these items cannot be placed under consideration, I'd be grateful for a comment from the developers regarding the intended role, vision, and function for Shaman/Defiler class characters.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Many other players consider Defilers 'gimped', and I've enjoyed playing my Defiler, however the disadvantages to playing a Defiler with relevance to balance with other support/healer classes are becoming increasingly self evident.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I have concern about the effect of removing parry as a non-magic skill that my defiler relies upon both in solo and group play.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT face=Verdana color=#ffffff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT face=Verdana color=#ffffff size=2>Thank you for your time and attention,</FONT></SPAN></P>

[Blackguard]

Hopefully peppering this information all around the forums will help be clear about our intentions with the combat changes: Live Update #7 will not include the combat changes. They are simply on the Test server for testing and feedback so we can ensure that we balance them out to achieve the desired effect. The changes will not go to Live servers until we also make several changes to spells, such as adjusting both healing and damage numbers. The goal is to keep solo and small group play very similar to the way it is now. That is, not overly challenging and at the same time, not at all trivial. Groups and raids taking on powerful encounters should meet a greater challenge. Again, they won't be so challenging that you can't take them on, but we don't want powerful encounters to be trivialized as they sometimes can be now. If you would like to check out the current combat changes and provide feedback on them, please feel free to log into the Test server and give your <a href="message?board.id=testdev&message.id=899" target="_blank">feedback here</a>. <div></div>

[Tami]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blackguard wrote:<BR>Hopefully peppering this information all around the forums will help be clear about our intentions with the combat changes:<BR><BR>Live Update #7 will not include the combat changes. They are simply on the Test server for testing and feedback so we can ensure that we balance them out to achieve the desired effect. The changes will not go to Live servers until we also make several changes to spells, such as adjusting both healing and damage numbers.<BR><BR>The goal is to keep solo and small group play very similar to the way it is now. That is, not overly challenging and at the same time, not at all trivial. Groups and raids taking on powerful encounters should meet a greater challenge. Again, they won't be so challenging that you can't take them on, but we don't want powerful encounters to be trivialized as they sometimes can be now.<BR><BR>If you would like to check out the current combat changes and provide feedback on them, please feel free to log into the Test server and give your <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testdev&message.id=899" target=_blank>feedback here</A>. <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Can you please be more verbose on the "The goal is to keep solo and small group play very similar to the way it is now" part.  There are alot of concerns with the current distribution of group mobs being overwhelmed by solo/small group encounters.

[Sebastien]

<span><blockquote><hr>Blackguard wrote:Hopefully peppering this information all around the forums will help be clear about our intentions with the combat changes: <hr></blockquote> Good luck with that.  I have tried the peppering approach this morning to clear up some misconceptions about these changes, and it doesn't seem to be working well.  /shrug</span><div></div>

[Rizzen19]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sebastien wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blackguard wrote:<BR>Hopefully peppering this information all around the forums will help be clear about our intentions with the combat changes:<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Good luck with that.  I have tried the peppering approach this morning to clear up some misconceptions about these changes, and it doesn't seem to be working well.  /shrug<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT color=#66ff00>"The sky is falling!!111"</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#ff0066>no no .. dude .. its NOT going live ... they are just testing ..</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>"but .. but .. The sky is falling!!111"</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>Kinda like that Seb?</P> <P> </P> <P>lol</P> <P> </P>

[Blackdog183]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE>Blackguard wrote:<BR>Hopefully peppering this information all around the forums will help be clear about our intentions with the combat changes:<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></SPAN> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Heres an idea Blackguard, how bout you folks at SOE just come out and tell us what your intentions are, theres a quant idea.</P> <P>This is what most people are seeing........NERF</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Bad_Mojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blackguard wrote:<BR>Hopefully peppering this information all around the forums will help be clear about our intentions with the combat changes:<BR><BR>Live Update #7 will not include the combat changes. They are simply on the Test server for testing and feedback so we can ensure that we balance them out to achieve the desired effect. The changes will not go to Live servers until we also make several changes to spells, such as adjusting both healing and damage numbers.<BR><BR>The goal is to keep solo and small group play very similar to the way it is now. That is, not overly challenging and at the same time, not at all trivial. Groups and raids taking on powerful encounters should meet a greater challenge. Again, they won't be so challenging that you can't take them on, but we don't want powerful encounters to be trivialized as they sometimes can be now.<BR><BR>If you would like to check out the current combat changes and provide feedback on them, please feel free to log into the Test server and give your <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testdev&message.id=899" target=_blank>feedback here</A>. <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I would, but I don't see how feedback from a level 1 character is going to be overly helpful.  Just as an example, no class can use plate until at least level 20, so any mitigation testing is out the window.  If I started today the odds of me hitting 20 before the patch went live anyway are nil.  I'd love to know how many raids are performed on test as well, from what I'm hearing there aren't enough high level characters to test high level content over there - Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the reason that the raid instance of Nektopolus castle was so bugged when it went live?</P> <P>My suggestion is to make "test" a legitimate server, that way there's no unfairness to the folks that have trudged a path of testing - change the name "Heroes" or something to reward them in their efforts.  Make a new "Test" server and allow us to copy character's over.  That's really the only way your going to get a full range of feedback unless you want to wait another few months for the Test server folks to level up and be able to tackle a large part of the game content.</P>

[Laiina]

<span><blockquote><hr>Scrav wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Laiina wrote:<div> The actual damage mitigation we get by having Parry is probably minimal - perhaps 5% at best. But it was these small percent nerfs in EQ1 that over a couple of years added up to a character that could barely solo low green mobs, and was totally dependent on groups and raids for xp or loot.</div><hr></blockquote>Parry supposedly accounts for just under half of my avoidance as a Mystic, if the avoidance breakdown is anything to go by.  I presume it is similar for other priest classes. <font color="#ccffff"><i><b> I'm concerned about spell interrupts with such a large hit to avoidance.</b></i></font></span><div></div><hr></blockquote>And that is my concern also. Even now, if attacked by 3-4 high grey mobs I can get interrupted a lot. I tried taking on a group of 4 greens last night - all with a down ^ - and got constant interuptions. In a group situation, Parry is pretty much a non issue most of the time unless you have a tank that cannot hold aggro, but in solo or a two or three group party with no tank, it can be an issue if it is going to decrease my ability to cast.</span><div></div>

[Sebastien]

<span><blockquote><hr>Blackdog183 wrote: <p>Heres an idea Blackguard, how bout you folks at SOE just come out and tell us what your intentions are, theres a quant idea.</p> <p>This is what most people are seeing........NERF  </p> <hr></blockquote> OK I honestly need to ask you something.  Do you read?  You are mocking Blackguard, and asking him to tell you what SOE's intentions are, in response to a post where he said this: <b>"</b></span><b>The goal is to keep solo and small group play very similar to the way it is now. That is, not overly challenging and at the same time, not at all trivial. Groups and raids taking on powerful encounters should meet a greater challenge. Again, they won't be so challenging that you can't take them on, but we don't want powerful encounters to be trivialized as they sometimes can be now."</b> If that is not specific enough for you, I can translate. Right now, in the group and raid context, you can stack stats and buffs correctly so that you avoid every attack.  Some groups use this to fight green-con'd heroic and epic encounters in such a way that they get nice rewards for taking no risk. Why do people play a game that way?  I have no idea.  Our guild experimented with it once to defeat an epic encounter.  We found it utterly dull and choose not to play that way.  But some people view this as a contest so they like things like that.. and they abuse mechanics when they can. SOE thinks it is dumb for people to engage in encounters in which they can never ever be hit.  So they are fixing avoidance mechanics.  After they fix avoidance mechanics, they plan to go back, and review mob DPS and healing output, so that if you are NOT one of the people who was using these exploits, then overall, the game will feel about the same to you, once they are done. <span> </span><div></div>

[Oghi]

<P>Blackguard,</P> <P>Could you please 'pepper' enchanters with some information, too? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  After being promised DPS enhancements in LU7, we're now being told nothing.  MG's posts say that healing changes must wait until the new combat system is tested, as healing and tanking are intertwined.  This makes perfect sense.  But what's up with enchanters now?   All 30 of us are really curious! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Tami]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sebastien wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blackdog183 wrote:<BR><BR> <P>Heres an idea Blackguard, how bout you folks at SOE just come out and tell us what your intentions are, theres a quant idea.</P> <P>This is what most people are seeing........NERF<BR> </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>OK I honestly need to ask you something.  Do you read?  You are mocking Blackguard, and asking him to tell you what SOE's intentions are, in response to a post where he said this:<BR><BR><B>"</B></SPAN><B>The goal is to keep solo and small group play very similar to the way it is now. That is, not overly challenging and at the same time, not at all trivial. Groups and raids taking on powerful encounters should meet a greater challenge. Again, they won't be so challenging that you can't take them on, but we don't want powerful encounters to be trivialized as they sometimes can be now."</B><BR><BR>If that is not specific enough for you, I can translate.<BR><BR>Right now, in the group and raid context, you can stack stats and buffs correctly so that you avoid every attack.  Some groups use this to fight green-con'd heroic and epic encounters in such a way that they get nice rewards for taking no risk.<BR><BR>Why do people play a game that way?  I have no idea.  Our guild experimented with it once to defeat an epic encounter.  We found it utterly dull and choose not to play that way.  But some people view this as a contest so they like things like that.. and they abuse mechanics when they can.<BR><BR>SOE thinks it is dumb for people to engage in encounters in which they can never ever be hit.  So they are fixing avoidance mechanics.  After they fix avoidance mechanics, they plan to go back, and review mob DPS and healing output, so that if you are NOT one of the people who was using these exploits, then overall, the game will feel about the same to you, once they are done.<BR><BR><SPAN><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>As you and I discussed in a differnt thread .. there is a vast differnce pre 40 and post 40.  Looking at your guild, with only 2 players just at 40 your not experiancing what some of the concerns are.  Just between 30's and 40's there is a vast differance (not the spike that occurs, but in general) of damage output by MoBs .. encounters are tuned to have multiple engagments .. and issues that people are raising are very valid.  Your points are valid as well, but dont discount the concerns being voiced in areas you can not 'test'.  <BR></P> <P>This includes my question a few posts above that while MG did give some info in that statement, there needs to be a bit more verbosity in it to address concerns .. including (the highest one I have until more changes are done to test) the overland population distirbution.  </P>

[Blackdog183]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sebastien wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blackdog183 wrote:<BR><BR> <P>Heres an idea Blackguard, how bout you folks at SOE just come out and tell us what your intentions are, theres a quant idea.</P> <P>This is what most people are seeing........NERF<BR> </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><BR>OK I honestly need to ask you something.  Do you read?  You are mocking Blackguard, and asking him to tell you what SOE's intentions are, in response to a post where he said this:<BR><BR><B>"</B></SPAN><B>The goal is to keep solo and small group play very similar to the way it is now. That is, not overly challenging and at the same time, not at all trivial. Groups and raids taking on powerful encounters should meet a greater challenge. Again, they won't be so challenging that you can't take them on, but we don't want powerful encounters to be trivialized as they sometimes can be now."</B><BR><BR>If that is not specific enough for you, I can translate.<BR><BR>Right now, in the group and raid context, you can stack stats and buffs correctly so that you avoid every attack.  Some groups use this to fight green-con'd heroic and epic encounters in such a way that they get nice rewards for taking no risk.</P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>So instead of adressing the buffs that are the problem, they revamp the entire system, thus screwing over crusaders and scouts, nice, real nice.  Thats kinda like dropping a nuclear bomb to take out a fly....overkill.</FONT><BR><BR>Why do people play a game that way?  I have no idea.  Our guild experimented with it once to defeat an epic encounter.  We found it utterly dull and choose not to play that way.  But some people view this as a contest so they like things like that.. and they abuse mechanics when they can.</P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>I agree, why do people play that way, and a green epic mob should be pretty damned easy anyway compared to a yellow one, hence it being green.</FONT><BR><BR>SOE thinks it is dumb for people to engage in encounters in which they can never ever be hit.  So they are fixing avoidance mechanics.  After they fix avoidance mechanics, they plan to go back, and review mob DPS and healing output, so that if you are NOT one of the people who was using these exploits, then overall, the game will feel about the same to you, once they are done.<BR></P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>Okay, so in essense what you saying, nerf now, buff later?  Sorry that doesent hold water, if they are planning on changing the way in which I have to tank(in the end game) and/or make me take more damage(which btw Im already being hit for 1k+ when tanking) then yes I would most definatly call it a nerf.  Before they even fathom putting this change to live, it needs to be 1. done right and 2. tested to hell and back.  They need to adress all the issues at once when this thing goes live, to include healing, mob DPS, spells, and most importantly BALANCE.  As it stands right now, crusaders and scouts are getting royaly *$%#&!ed over with this change.</FONT><BR><BR><SPAN><BR><BR></P></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>So what I meant with my original statement, is they need to come out and say whether or not they intent to neuter scouts and crusaders.  They need to explain how this change will be balanced.  You say that their wont se signifigant change, then they need to explain how so.  What changes to healing, mob DPS, spells etc.....thats what they need to be specific about.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Blackdog183 on <span class=date_text>04-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:31 AM</span>

[Kazora]

<DIV> <DIV>I hope sony doesnt lose sight of the fact that, with respect to raid encounters, different peopel will find certain things trivial, that others will find challenging.  I just hope sony uses a little common sense in the matter. Very end game mobs (ie darathar) should be hard, and a challenging fight for even the best, seasoned guilds. But there needs to be a reasonable amount of x4 content that runs the gamut from trivial for these best-end guilds, but would provied a good starting ground for guilds working their way up, all the way up to mobs like darathar.  Obviously this should naturally occur as expansions come out, as with eq1, but a little now would be nice. It would be even nicer if there was some loot differentiation to reflect the differences in difficulty that these mobs represented :smileyvery-happy:  But i digress</DIV></DIV>

[Eileithia]

<P>OK.. here goes..</P> <P>I totally agree with the devs on every change that they are making at the moment.. There are some blatently obvious balance issues in the game as it stands with reguards to mitigation / avoidance / resistance / healing (So basically the whole combat system)  This was even more obvious to me last night, when I saw a level 47 caster SOLO a level 50 Group mob without any issues whatsoever, finising the fight with half power, and pulling another mob without a rest. Meanwhile, myself, and a few other guildies, have serious issues when it comes to soloing even-con group mobs and lower without being totally out of power or dead.  This screams to me that there are some overpowering issues that need to be addressed.  A single player SHOULD NOT be able to take down a goup encounter 3 levels higher, especially as easy as certain classes can now. whereas you get a Guardian who is made to take damage, try the same mob and last about 3 minutes before they are kissing dirt.  The entire system NEEDS a re-vamp..  </P> <P>Another one I ran into a few days ago in EF, was when I saw a scout SOLO Iceberg and Jack, and was 3 levels lower than them.. yes it took the person about 20 minutes to kill, but it is an EPIC encounter, and there shouldn't be a way for a single person take down a GRP x 2 mob. I agree that skill comes into play, but that is almost rediculous!</P> <P>Another example.. Pally's currently are the BEST tanks.. they are a hybrid class. (Half healer / Half tank) Once you buff up a pally, there is absolutely no use for guardians in the game as they cannot take down the same encounters with the same level off efficiency for all group members.  Guardians are supposed to be the mitigation kings, and are currently out mitigated by other classes that should be getting hit more often, and take more damage. This is currently not how the system is working.. There are some major issues with game mechanics the way they are now which ARE making certain epic encounters totally trivial, as opposed to fun and challenging.</P> <P>I applaud the devs on realizing that there are some serious issues, and doing everything they can to make sure that this game isn't destroyed  by having 100000 toons of the 3-4 classes that are currently close to invulnerable with the right skills / buffs. What's the point of playing a game that is trivial? Everyone should welcome these changes, as it will bring more truely SKILLED players together, and make room for ALL classes to be needed in a group to defeat challenging encounters instead of the way it is working now.</P> <P><IMG src="http://homepage.mac.com/jjs_graphics/eilsigc.gif"></P> <P> </P>

[See]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Blackguard wrote:<BR>They are simply on the Test server for testing and feedback so we can ensure that we balance them out to achieve the desired effect. The changes will not go to Live servers until we also make several changes to spells, such as adjusting both healing and damage numbers.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Ryan,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The problem is that you said the <STRONG>exact same thing</STRONG>  about the Overland Population oh, about 18 days ago.  Thirteen days later it started hitting Live servers.  Sixteen days later is was simply "Live."  In the process, you (SOE, not you personally but hey, you're the guy) broke dozens of quests and completely took the group option out of Thundering Steppes (just to name one zone) where today there are less than 20 total "group" mobs total.  I don't mean 20 encounter, I mean 20 mobs.  In the process, Everfrost lost all but three glacial constructs <STRONG>even though</STRONG>  it was not even (allegedly) to be effected by these changes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So forgive me when I doubt the voracity of a statement like <EM>"They are simply on the Test server for testing and feedback so we can ensure that we balance them out to achieve the desired effect. The changes will not go to Live servers until we also make several changes to spells, such as adjusting both healing and damage numbers."  </EM>Quite frankly, you (again SOE colelctively) have lied to us with a statement just like this in the past 2 weeks already - so you simply don't have the credibility required to "be clear about our intentions with the combat changes" and bring any sense of comfort or ease to the player base.<BR></DIV>

[Leader_Do]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tamian wrote:<BR> <DIV>IMO your asking for the wrong benifit here.  Priests are really not melee combatants (the Pally is your varriant of that honestly) .. and parry really is not appropriate.  HOWEVER, access to Kite shields would be an appropriate benifit you should be receiving and achives what I think your asking for.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ADDED:  Honestly this is not just a Cleric issue, but personally Clerics = Kites, Shammy (all chain) = Round, Druids = Bucklers.  Like fighters, the dodge skill should be Druids > Shammy > Clerics .. this would give the cross class balances in that area.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Tamian on <SPAN class=date_text>04-14-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:33 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This is the most simplified and yet most briliant method of balancing I have yet seen. Five <FONT color=#ffff00>* </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>for you.</FONT>

[Blackdog183]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Duntzzzz wrote:<BR> <P>OK.. here goes..</P> <P>I totally agree with the devs on every change that they are making at the moment.. There are some blatently obvious balance issues in the game as it stands with reguards to mitigation / avoidance / resistance / healing (So basically the whole combat system)  This was even more obvious to me last night, when I saw a level 47 caster SOLO a level 50 Group mob without any issues whatsoever, finising the fight with half power, and pulling another mob without a rest. Meanwhile, myself, and a few other guildies, have serious issues when it comes to soloing even-con group mobs and lower without being totally out of power or dead.  This screams to me that there are some overpowering issues that need to be addressed.  A single player SHOULD NOT be able to take down a goup encounter 3 levels higher, especially as easy as certain classes can now. whereas you get a Guardian who is made to take damage, try the same mob and last about 3 minutes before they are kissing dirt.  The entire system NEEDS a re-vamp..  </P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>What you were seeing had nothing to do with avoidance and mitigation, that was simply an overpowered class.  Yes since the wizzy/warlock got their boost, they can and solo mobs well above their level without issues.  I solo my 40 warlock 5 levels higher without an issue...  And after this patch, that guardian will be biting dirt in less than 3 minutes, because his [Removed for Content] is gettin nerfed....</FONT></P> <P>Another one I ran into a few days ago in EF, was when I saw a scout SOLO Iceberg and Jack, and was 3 levels lower than them.. yes it took the person about 20 minutes to kill, but it is an EPIC encounter, and there shouldn't be a way for a single person take down a GRP x 2 mob. I agree that skill comes into play, but that is almost rediculous!</P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>Aye, but I highly doubt he was straight up tanking the mob, therefore the problem isnt avoidance and mitigation.</FONT><BR></P> <P>Another example.. Pally's currently are the BEST tanks.. they are a hybrid class. (Half healer / Half tank) Once you buff up a pally, there is absolutely no use for guardians in the game as they cannot take down the same encounters with the same level off efficiency for all group members.  Guardians are supposed to be the mitigation kings, and are currently out mitigated by other classes that should be getting hit more often, and take more damage. This is currently not how the system is working.. There are some major issues with game mechanics the way they are now which ARE making certain epic encounters totally trivial, as opposed to fun and challenging.</P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>Im cant speak from firsthand experience on the issue of tanks buffing to stupid high levels of avoidance, but I can tell you what ive seen here.  What I have seen most people on the forums say, it was actually guradians that were achieving this with ease.  I like the comment about get hit more often and take more damage..this shows me you have little knowledge of how the tanks are supposed to work.  Guardian/zerker is meant to be high mit/low avoid, crusaders are med mit/med avoid, and brawlers are high avoid/low mit.  Problem atm is that mainly guardians are achieving high mit/insane avoid.  </FONT></P> <P>I applaud the devs on realizing that there are some serious issues, and doing everything they can to make sure that this game isn't destroyed  by having 100000 toons of the 3-4 classes that are currently close to invulnerable with the right skills / buffs. What's the point of playing a game that is trivial? Everyone should welcome these changes, as it will bring more truely SKILLED players together, and make room for ALL classes to be needed in a group to defeat challenging encounters instead of the way it is working now.</P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>Just think maybe you should look at the actual numbers before making that statement, because if you look aorund, you will a zillion warriors and helluva lot less of crusaders and brawlers.  And it wasnt 3-4 classes that are nearly invuln, from all reports that I have seen, its 1 or 2, and the numbers of poeple actually using the exploit were minimal.</FONT></P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR> </P> <P><IMG src="http://homepage.mac.com/jjs_graphics/eilsigc.gif"></P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <p>Message Edited by Blackdog183 on <span class=date_text>04-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:21 AM</span>

[Sebastien]

Blackdog, Thank you for clarifying your position.  But you can't really accuse them of nerfing anybody.. because this isn't a change that they are making by itself on Live.  They are just testing one part of a bigger change on Test.. experimenting with something on Test should not be considered a nerf, right? <div></div>

[Sebastien]

Tamian, could you be a bit more clear on what you are trying to say? I really did not have a clear sense of what your particular concerns are.  It sounds like what you are concerned about is the idea of getting hit more often, in the face of level 40+ mobs' hitting harder?  But Moorgard has already stated that, after adjusting avoidance mechanics (which will result in everyone getting hit more often) they intend to review mob DPS as well. Also it would not be accurate to assume that because the current members of SoH are in the 35-40 range, that we do not have several members with level 50 toons.  After all, the Neriak server was opened up as a refuge for people fleeing from Mistmoore.  I am not one of those members myself, and my highest is a level 40.  But there is ample experience with the 40-50 game in our particular guild. =) To be honest, everything I have heard about it has made me even more enthusiastic about these changes (at least the spirit of them), but perhaps you could expalin what your specific concerns were? <div></div>

[Xa]

<P><SPAN>I only have a level 28 Warden.  I know <U>nothing</U> about the mid levels or the end game.  </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>I am going to take a deep breath, and wait for all the changes to come in before I "wig out."  I understand that the game needs serious tweaking.  I understand how difficult that is at this point.  I also understand that in a "patch" of this scale, they have to start somewhere and they happened to start with combat changes that look <EM><SPAN><FONT color=#ffff00>really</FONT></SPAN></EM> bad for my character. </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><U>On one hand</U> I expect that SOE will either buff my character so that I am compensated in a satisfactory manner, or that the changes listed are more trivial than they appear.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><U>On the other hand</U>, I totally expect the situation to go <EM><U><SPAN>down hard</SPAN></U></EM>.  I know "they" are trying their best to make the game more fun for the community at large.  <EM>I've been nurfed countless times in the past in other games and I lived through it.</EM>  But the things they are saying they are going to fix baffle me.  I've yet to be in a group where we look around the game world and see encounters as "trivial" (I'm guessing that is more end-game.) When I am solo I am questing and I have yet to walk away from an encounter with a green ^^ and say "That was easy."  Most of the time I am waiting till the area is grey, the mobs around it are grey, and I have time to burn, (a lot of time because my archetype has almost no DPS.)</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#999999>/rant</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#999999>Example:  Last night I thought I might be able to advance my AQ4 down in Edgewater Drains.  I spent 20 minutes getting down there, place was empty as it has been the last 4 times I checked.  I began killing "goo" somethings, level 22 ^^ and was spending about 3 minutes per kill.  I estimated that if the whole zone was grey I would be able to get the next piece of armor in about 4 hours (so I grabbed a beer.)  On each grey mob I blew 90% of my power (melee alone would have been about 10 minutes per mob, if I was lucky.)  When I moved down the ...drain... I ran into greens.  I fought one and lived, with 25% health and 0% power, then left the zone and decided against continuing my AQ's.  </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#999999>/rant off</FONT> </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Here is the point (finally):  If SOE takes away, say... 10% of my mitigation, my ability to solo would be severely hampered.  I spend  about 60% of my time in a group, often with regular friends.  If SOE takes away, say... 10% of my mitigation that means a lot more group wipes.  If SOE fixes SK's ability to taunt groups, and lowers my hate generation, that would improve my grouping time, but will not address my ability to do quests.  </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Maybe I'm wrong.  Maybe I should not expect to be able to do quests solo.  Maybe I should expect to find people on at my time, doing the same quests as me, who are close enough to group with... somehow.  I have done the EL boat ride pre-steps 5+ times to catch up others to part 3.   Maybe that’s the way it was meant to be.  <EM>15% of my online time productive, 85% working around the holes in the system with my friends as we just try to have fun.</EM></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffff00>Perhaps SOE should have started combat changes with increases to DPS, and fixes to taunts, rather than with a nurf to Mitigation.</FONT></SPAN></P>

[Eileithia]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blackdog183 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Duntzzzz wrote:<BR> <P>OK.. here goes..</P> <P>I totally agree with the devs on every change that they are making at the moment.. There are some blatently obvious balance issues in the game as it stands with reguards to mitigation / avoidance / resistance / healing (So basically the whole combat system)  This was even more obvious to me last night, when I saw a level 47 caster SOLO a level 50 Group mob without any issues whatsoever, finising the fight with half power, and pulling another mob without a rest. Meanwhile, myself, and a few other guildies, have serious issues when it comes to soloing even-con group mobs and lower without being totally out of power or dead.  This screams to me that there are some overpowering issues that need to be addressed.  A single player SHOULD NOT be able to take down a goup encounter 3 levels higher, especially as easy as certain classes can now. whereas you get a Guardian who is made to take damage, try the same mob and last about 3 minutes before they are kissing dirt.  The entire system NEEDS a re-vamp..  </P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>What you were seeing had nothing to do with avoidance and mitigation, that was simply an overpowered class.  Yes since the wizzy/warlock got their boost, they can and solo mobs well above their level without issues.  I solo my 40 warlock 5 levels higher without an issue...  And after this patch, that guardian will be biting dirt in less than 3 minutes, because his [Removed for Content] is gettin nerfed....</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Just making a statement, that there shouldn't be any classes that should be able to solo, ^^ encounters 4-5 levels higher than them, no matter how skilled a player they are.</FONT></P> <P>Another one I ran into a few days ago in EF, was when I saw a scout SOLO Iceberg and Jack, and was 3 levels lower than them.. yes it took the person about 20 minutes to kill, but it is an EPIC encounter, and there shouldn't be a way for a single person take down a GRP x 2 mob. I agree that skill comes into play, but that is almost rediculous!</P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>Aye, but I highly doubt he was straight up tanking the mob, therefore the problem isnt avoidance and mitigation.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Again, this was a statement about something that should not be possible to do. I know that this has nothing to do with avoidance and mitigation, but has everything to do with game mechanics.</FONT><BR></P> <P>Another example.. Pally's currently are the BEST tanks.. they are a hybrid class. (Half healer / Half tank) Once you buff up a pally, there is absolutely no use for guardians in the game as they cannot take down the same encounters with the same level off efficiency for all group members.  Guardians are supposed to be the mitigation kings, and are currently out mitigated by other classes that should be getting hit more often, and take more damage. This is currently not how the system is working.. There are some major issues with game mechanics the way they are now which ARE making certain epic encounters totally trivial, as opposed to fun and challenging.</P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>Im cant speak from firsthand experience on the issue of tanks buffing to stupid high levels of avoidance, but I can tell you what ive seen here.  What I have seen most people on the forums say, it was actually guradians that were achieving this with ease.  I like the comment about get hit more often and take more damage..this shows me you have little knowledge of how the tanks are supposed to work.  Guardian/zerker is meant to be high mit/low avoid, crusaders are med mit/med avoid, and brawlers are high avoid/low mit.  Problem atm is that mainly guardians are achieving high mit/insane avoid.  </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Speaking from first hand experience, A level 50 Guardian, cannot tank the same level mob as efficiently as a level 50 Pally with the same gear and group dynamics. I agree that pally's should get hit less, but they SHOULD get hit harder. as well Guardians should get hit more, but mitigate more of that damage to balance it out.</FONT></P> <P>I applaud the devs on realizing that there are some serious issues, and doing everything they can to make sure that this game isn't destroyed  by having 100000 toons of the 3-4 classes that are currently close to invulnerable with the right skills / buffs. What's the point of playing a game that is trivial? Everyone should welcome these changes, as it will bring more truely SKILLED players together, and make room for ALL classes to be needed in a group to defeat challenging encounters instead of the way it is working now.</P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>Just think maybe you should look at the actual numbers before making that statement, because if you look aorund, you will a zillion warriors and helluva lot less of crusaders and brawlers.  And it wasnt 3-4 classes that are nearly invuln, from all reports that I have seen, its 1 or 2, and the numbers of poeple actually using the exploit were minimal.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>This was more to put the point accross that the current game mechanics need work, and I am glad that they are spending the effort to make this game fun and challenging as opposed to trivial. The entire combat system NEEDS a revamp, and from what I've seen the people complaining the most about these changes are the ones who are currently soloing the ^^ encounters 3-4 levels higher than them with ease for un-heard of XP, and are [Removed for Content] that they will have to actually have to use a little effort and teamwork to defeat what SHOULD be challenging encounters.</FONT></P> <P><IMG src="http://homepage.mac.com/jjs_graphics/eilsigc.gif"></P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Message Edited by Blackdog183 on <SPAN class=date_text>04-15-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:21 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT></DIV>

[Konda]

<DIV>30 Warden here, and I'm not so much upset about losing the ability to parry but with how it changes class balance.  Tanks are already godly and nobody can keep up with them in the solo game.  They can easily take groups of green con heroic ^^ encounters without even getting hit, I as a priest however am very limited in being able to solo.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Right now fully buffed I have 52% avoidance, 21.5% of that is parry, and in the current state I have a hard time taking a 25^^ single pull without dying.  Mages can do it with roots or pets, tanks can do it without even getting hit, but I rely on my avoidance because of my light armor.  I dont have enough power to kill something and keep myself healed with the current avoidance, this makes it so much harder.  I really dont want to be required to group all the time.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Clerics get heavy armor, and I know we are supposed to be balanced by the ability to do more damage, but as I level up the damage I do just gets worse and worse.  Before making a change like this place revamp some other aspects of the prist class, or change tanks so they actually NEED HEALS, instead of making a difficult job even harder to play.</DIV>

[Eileithia]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Konda X wrote:<BR> <DIV>30 Warden here, and I'm not so much upset about losing the ability to parry but with how it changes class balance.  Tanks are already godly and nobody can keep up with them in the solo game.  They can easily take groups of green con heroic ^^ encounters without even getting hit, I as a priest however am very limited in being able to solo.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Right now fully buffed I have 52% avoidance, 21.5% of that is parry, and in the current state I have a hard time taking a 25^^ single pull without dying.  Mages can do it with roots or pets, tanks can do it without even getting hit, but I rely on my avoidance because of my light armor.  I dont have enough power to kill something and keep myself healed with the current avoidance, this makes it so much harder.  I really dont want to be required to group all the time.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Clerics get heavy armor, and I know we are supposed to be balanced by the ability to do more damage, but as I level up the damage I do just gets worse and worse.  Before making a change like this place revamp some other aspects of the prist class, or change tanks so they actually NEED HEALS, instead of making a difficult job even harder to play.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>/agree </P> <P>Defilers have the same soloing issues... ^^ encounters eat our power for lunch, even if they're blue / green and it gets worse at the higher levels. Apparently Healers are not a Solo class, at least not with the current game dynamics. Even some even and higher solo mobs are a challenge as we can't kill them fast enough.</P> <P> </P>

[Tu]

<P>Funny part is this ...</P> <P>They would have never had to make this change if they would have beta'd the game properly instead of launching it 6 months early.  The testers stated that the game wasn't ready but of course SOE rammed it into production stating that they knew what they were doing (sounds familiar doesn't it)  I love paying for a beta .. make combat changes such as this should have been solved during beta but of course the almighty dollar always comes first.</P> <DIV>Please get all the changes done right for once ... don't make us relive this same issue a couple months down the road like the agility change you did.</DIV>

[TygerBlueEy]

<P>I read the goals and understand them -- I'm sure others do also; but we also read Priest losing parry and dodge. I for one am not happy about losing those skills. </P> <P>I think that will effect our soloing and small group effectiveness.  I for one do really see a reason why we should lose those skills.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[veun]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blackguard wrote:<BR>If you would like to check out the current combat changes and provide feedback on them, please feel free to log into the Test server and give your <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testdev&message.id=899" target=_blank>feedback here</A>. <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I'd love to, but will not until you allow me to bring a clone of my chacter to the test sever, so I can provided feedback upon how those changes will <STRONG>really </STRONG>effect my game play. (e.g. a real test server <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)<BR>

[Shandael]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Seeko wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Blackguard wrote:<BR>They are simply on the Test server for testing and feedback so we can ensure that we balance them out to achieve the desired effect. The changes will not go to Live servers until we also make several changes to spells, such as adjusting both healing and damage numbers.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Ryan,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The problem is that you said the <STRONG>exact same thing</STRONG>  about the Overland Population oh, about 18 days ago.  Thirteen days later it started hitting Live servers.  Sixteen days later is was simply "Live."  In the process, you (SOE, not you personally but hey, you're the guy) broke dozens of quests and completely took the group option out of Thundering Steppes (just to name one zone) where today there are less than 20 total "group" mobs total.  I don't mean 20 encounter, I mean 20 mobs.  In the process, Everfrost lost all but three glacial constructs <STRONG>even though</STRONG>  it was not even (allegedly) to be effected by these changes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So forgive me when I doubt the voracity of a statement like <EM>"They are simply on the Test server for testing and feedback so we can ensure that we balance them out to achieve the desired effect. The changes will not go to Live servers until we also make several changes to spells, such as adjusting both healing and damage numbers."  </EM>Quite frankly, you (again SOE colelctively) have lied to us with a statement just like this in the past 2 weeks already - so you simply don't have the credibility required to "be clear about our intentions with the combat changes" and bring any sense of comfort or ease to the player base.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Same here. We've all heard the horror stories from Beta testers and the current group of testers on the Test server. </P> <P>Something can be seriously broken, or seriously unbalancing...or both, and the testers can /feedback, /report, and scream it on the boards til they're blue in the face...but it always goes live anyway, without any change whatsoever.</P> <P>Like many, I have no faith at all anymore in what is said by Moorgard and co. and what is actually done. Everything on Test now, even if it's wholesale slaughter of melee's, and complete defenselessness of the caster classes will go live in its current form, regardless.</P> <P>As for me, when these changes get rushed out to make way for their big Froglok event, I'm going to stay safely huddled in the bunker of the tradeskill instances. </P> <P>There's no way I'm going to ruin my Templar's reputation as being a solid healer when SoE throws out this total [Removed for Content] onto the live servers as quick as they can, without thought or consequence.</P> <P>Yes, I heard Moorgard. Just like I heard Conjurer pets will be looked into with LU2, Frogloks are just waiting to be unlocked. Great things are coming for Carpenters. So excuse me if I learn my lessons from past history...</P> <P> </P>

[MaddBomber]

<DIV>I hate to say this, but do you seriously trust anything that SoE says?  Can anyone say Froglocks are in the game! Go release them!  Wait no, they were never in the game, my bad.  Or the negative effects of crafting buffs stack, but the positives don't.  No reply to that one yet either.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So back to the topic.  I'm a little confused on what is happening to mitgation and avoidance.  Right now my Inquisitor is in a full set of Rare crafted armor has just shy of 50% avoidance and 60% mitigation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They are going to drop the avoidance of my vanguard down, and leave mitigation the same?  Also, on top of dropping my avoidance they are going to take away parry, wich will drop my avoidance further?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In solo play, well, I'm the tank.</DIV> <DIV>In small group play, my tank will take most mobs, but if I pull one or two agro its fine cause I can handle it, and we do well.</DIV> <DIV>In a full group play I only draw agro when I heal a mage type who got attacked by an add.  I only grab this agro because I am watching the life bars and will notice it before a tank does.  I don't die cause I can handle it.</DIV> <DIV>In 2 or more groups I don't draw agro.  My tanks keep all the agro and I just don't get hit.  Furthermore, its not a dungion or anything, its a well put together group, we know what we are fighting, we know how the encounter spawns its waves, ectra. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So you see, they want to make raid level content harder so it is not to easy.  I do raid content now and I have to agree, it does seem a little easy.  I"m not end game though.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, if you look at my personal experience, by reducing my mitigation or avoidance, it will affect me the most when I solo, then when i do small parties, it may affect me a little when I do a full group, and probably won't affect me at all in a large group.  (if a raid mob agros on me, can you say detaunt!!!!)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On to test.  We got two situations here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Economy:  In order to test the affects of changes on an economy, you have to have one.  However if you keep testing an economy your going to ruin it.  So drop the idea of testing an economy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Actual testing:  You know what?  I"m a level 50 Alchemist.  I spend about 2-3 hours a week maintaing my shop, then I adventure cause I have nothing better to do.  I know its a bad word and all, but here is what WoW is trying out.  Live update 8 is on test, type /test char copy name to copy your character to test.  You will get an exact copy of your character on the test server, bank, items, everything.  Once we are done with this round of testing we will do a character wipe.  When we start LU 9, you can do another copy over.  </DIV> <DIV>If they put something new about poisons and potions on test, you know what I would do?  I would copy over to test, make them, give my feedback, pass them out to other people who can further test them, and then maybe WE WOULD GET SOMETHING DONE!!</DIV>

[Tami]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sebastien wrote:<BR>Tamian, could you be a bit more clear on what you are trying to say?<BR><BR>I really did not have a clear sense of what your particular concerns are.  It sounds like what you are concerned about is the idea of getting hit more often, in the face of level 40+ mobs' hitting harder?  But Moorgard has already stated that, after adjusting avoidance mechanics (which will result in everyone getting hit more often) they intend to review mob DPS as well.<BR><BR><BR>Also it would not be accurate to assume that because the current members of SoH are in the 35-40 range, that we do not have several members with level 50 toons.  After all, the Neriak server was opened up as a refuge for people fleeing from Mistmoore.  I am not one of those members myself, and my highest is a level 40.  But there is ample experience with the 40-50 game in our particular guild. =)<BR><BR>To be honest, everything I have heard about it has made me even more enthusiastic about these changes (at least the spirit of them), but perhaps you could expalin what your specific concerns were?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Sorry, didnt see your response until now.  There really two points of the post ...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) The response in regards to MG was focused on a small sentance about group vs small group vs solo mob populations currenty in overland and intentions in dungeons.  There is a major fustration that the swing of the game is heading toward the solo/small group (keep in mind I support that playstyle but the distribution and overmix of those mobs are making group play fustrating) style player.  SoE (MG in this case) needs to communicate their vision of what their intention is for this game and if mob distributions are their 'statement' then im the *$%#&! out of here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) I have the same issue on test, in that I dont have level 40+ and raidable characters there.  It is that sector of population that will be impacted the most with these changes, especially epic type mobs.  My point is when looking at your guild I didnt see many post 40 and was questioning if had experiance understanding just how hard mobs in that range hit.  If this is not the case (re your guild), I stand correct and appologize .. but still will not back down on the principle that 'Test' is not going to get enough feedback in that area to fullly ensure the success of thier currnet direction.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont like the copy over situation, as that really elmininates progression and econonomic testing that has to happen as well.  There has to be a better solution (/shrug beg a few guilds to come over to test .. give some benifit to them .. not sure) then that, and something has to be done to ensure that happens soon.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Added:  SOE has a crediablity problem right now .. between the overland mobs, frogloks, poorly though out combat revamp, perceived focus on wrong priorities, etc ... being more forthcomming with their vision and addressing some of the concerns is something that needs to occur to quel players concerns.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Tamian on <span class=date_text>04-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:51 AM</span>

[Sebastien]

<div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Tamian wrote:<div></div> <div>Sorry, didnt see your response until now.  There really two points of the post ...</div> <div> </div> <div>1) The response in regards to MG was focused on a small sentance about group vs small group vs solo mob populations currenty in overland and intentions in dungeons.  There is a major fustration that the swing of the game is heading toward the solo/small group (keep in mind I support that playstyle but the distribution and overmix of those mobs are making group play fustrating) style player.  SoE (MG in this case) needs to communicate their vision of what their intention is for this game and if mob distributions are their 'statement' then im the *$%#&! out of here. <font color="#ffff66">Fair enough, although not really related to priests losing parry. =)</font><font color="#ffff66"> </font><font color="#ffff66"> </font><font color="#ffff66">I tend to agree that I am reluctant to see an MMO become too solo-oriented.  It simply won't hold my interest, as I play MMO's for the team dynamics.  While I like dungeons, I don't like to feel as though they are the only places I can go.  Currently I feel that is the case, and it makes the game world seem a ton smaller to me now.</font><font color="#ffff66"> </font><font color="#ffff66"> </font><font color="#ffff66">As far as their goal, though, they have stated it.  They want content to be available for groups in overlands zones also.  Some of the downtiered zones, such as TS, seem to do a decent job delivering that promise (albiet only for 25-30 groups imho).  Others seem to fail terribly (CL and Nek each seem to have only one camp that could really interest a full party).</font><font color="#ffff66"> </font><font color="#ffff66"> </font><font color="#ffff66">If they stay true to their goal, they need to back off on some of these down-tiered changes.  I'm frustrated that the only reply from SOE since Scott put up his roundtable thread was a jab from Moorgard demeaning people whose observations of these changes differed from his.</font> </div> <div> </div> <div>2) I have the same issue on test, in that I dont have level 40+ and raidable characters there.  It is that sector of population that will be impacted the most with these changes, especially epic type mobs.  My point is when looking at your guild I didnt see many post 40 and was questioning if had experiance understanding just how hard mobs in that range hit.  If this is not the case (re your guild), I stand correct and appologize .. but still will not back down on the principle that 'Test' is not going to get enough feedback in that area to fullly ensure the success of thier currnet direction. <font color="#ffff66">No need to apologize and I completely agree.  I consider Test dysfunctional right now.  For those people who do take testing seriously, please do not take that comment personally!  It isn't an insult directed toward you, but rather a comment on the entire situation.  The population is extremely low, as is the average level range.  There is no way to properly test raid content unless you have mature guilds there.  And there is no way to test changes to the end game unless you have more than a handful of people who are over 40.</font><font color="#ffff66"> </font><font color="#ffff66"> </font><font color="#ffff66">At a more fundamental level, here is SOE's big mistake in my eyes.  By making the Test server a "real" server, where players have to level their characters slowly, the old fashioned way, you fall into a pitfall which Moorgard has identified himself: people become emotionally attached to their characters.  To be honest I think leveling on Test should be trivial.  That way you can get people that aren't too attached to their Test character, can run experiments easily, and actually *test* things.</font> </div> <div> </div> <div>I dont like the copy over situation, as that really elmininates progression and econonomic testing that has to happen as well.  There has to be a better solution (/shrug beg a few guilds to come over to test .. give some benifit to them .. not sure) then that, and something has to be done to ensure that happens soon. <font color="#ffff66">I think the copy over thing is wise, for the reasons I stated above.  You don't want people emotionally invested in a character.. you want experienced players who can roll up characters quickly and test different scenarios for you.  Test should be a laboratory, not an exact replica of real servers, imo.  However, I do believe that inviting guilds is the best compromise.  Sorry if that sounds elitist to anyone not in a guild, but truthfully, well-organized guilds are the ones most familiar with the way different subclasses interact with eachother, as well as raid content, etc.</font> </div> <div> </div> <div>Added:  SOE has a crediablity problem right now .. between the overland mobs, frogloks, poorly though out combat revamp, perceived focus on wrong priorities, etc ... being more forthcomming with their vision and addressing some of the concerns is something that needs to occur to quel players concerns. <font color="#ffff66"> I don't agree that these combat changes are poorly thought-out.  I actually think they are very smart, realizing that this is only phase one of a series of changes.  This specific set of rules might not be right, but the way they are approaching the problem is dead-on imo.  Tamian, remember that the do intend to re-evaluate NPC DPS, and have strongly suggested they plan to reduce it, but that will be done after they are comfortable with the avoidance mechanics being adjusted.</font><font color="#ffff66"> </font> <font color="#ffff66">Otherwise, I agree that SOE has been developing serious credibility issues.  They need to work on this, and a statement from Scott or Smed is certainly appropriate in light of the Froglok incident.  Forcing Moorgard to take the heat for what was most likely a management decision is weak, imo.</font> </div><p>Message Edited by Tamian on <span class="date_text">04-16-2005</span> <span class="time_text">10:51 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Sebastien on <span class="date_text">04-16-2005</span> <span class="time_text">12:38 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Sebastien on <span class=date_text>04-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:39 PM</span>

[MaximumCarna]

<P>Why do you want to make group encounters like solo ones? You realize solo'ing sucks right?</P> <P>Solo'ing is a coin toss because the con system doesn't work. Sometimes a white mob is like a green, while a green is more like a white. Sometimes you can solo reds other times you can't solo whites. Some classes have it very hard for most of their levels while other classes have it much easier.</P> <P>I have found solo'ing to either be long and boring or sudden death. My pc feels weak. Then there is the fun of trying to do quests, except they almost always require a group at some point. As for trying out content, that's not easy either as most everything is for groups. Solo made stuff like valley of the magi suck with its mobs running around in circles and even then I couldn't solo it all.</P>

[Sebastien]

Straight-up solo mobs are boring, I agree.  Groups of mobs rated as solo encounters are pretty fun, as are single-up arrow mobs. =) That's why I would like to see more of those in the newly downtiered versions of the overland zones. <div></div>

[See]

<DIV>This was a great post showing that poor little me is losing 60% of my avoidance and 19.2% of my mitigation for a grand loss of 80% of my defenses gone but the stupid forums decided that I should log in again before posting.  As a result, I am just too tired and too annoyed by the double-talk and lies to go get the numbers again.  The game is buggy.  The boards are buggy.  And the devs simply lie at will.  Since December they have told summoners that they KNOW we are underpowered and underdeveloped.  They've told us how sorry they were and how fixing it was their highest priority.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They've told us that they will fix our pets in LU#2, #3, #4, #5, #6, and then #7.  Now they give us a great present - no fixes, just a 60% decrease in avoidance and a 19.2% decrease in Base defense.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I had numbers for you to look at.  I also had quotes from various devs at variosu times, but alas, them in some cruel plot to avoid the truth - that they just really don't know how to make this game work. (Actually I don't really believe it was a conspiracy as that would require much more foresight and planning abilities than SOE has ever demonstrated but typing that sentance was fun!)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So now because of yet another SOE-ignored bug (the forum login issues) yet another post turns from fact to rant...</DIV>

[Sebastien]

<div></div>How do you figure your mitigation has be changed? The base mitigation of very light armor before this patch?  10% The base mitigation of very light armor after this patch? 10% And are you saying that parry accounted for 60% of your total avoidance? <div></div><p>Message Edited by Sebastien on <span class=date_text>04-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:50 AM</span>

[mistress_darknes]

<P>All and all   the healers no matter what class are getting screwed,</P> <P>so heres to all the whiners  that whine about we need to be nerfed or who cares your  loosing your parry.</P> <P>HEALERS UNITE DO NOT HEAL GO ON STRIKE.</P> <P>Lets let the whiners die in combat so maybe they will whine enough devs will fix us and stop the d** nerfing us.</P> <P>we  loose our parry and  we can  not defend ourselves just how are we supose to keep your butts standing?</P> <P>S 38 warden</P>

[See]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sebastien wrote:<BR> And are you saying that parry accounted for 60% of your total avoidance?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>As of right now my total avoidance is 52.5%.  My Base is 24.8% amd my Parry is 36.8%.  Mages don't get Block or Deflection already.  (Don't ask me how 24.8 + 36.8 = 52.5, that's SOE math)  But regardless, if you add my two current values together (61.6) and divide them by with what I am losing, the result is 59.74% - or 60% going away.  After this nerf, I will have base only.  No Block, No Deflection, and no Parry.</DIV>

[Sebastien]

Heh.. that is more parry ability than a level 42 assassin with completely decked out gear and spiked AGI.. it does seem a bit out of balance.. however, I understand your point now.  Thank you for backing that up. =) Maybe a better solution that SOE could consider is letting priests and mages keep the Parry skill, but setting a lower cap each level (ie 1/2, 1/3, or even 1/4 the normal).  People might find that pill easier to swallow.  Personally I do not think that having parry overpowers mages.. they still go down like bricks as far as I have seen.. but perhaps SOE's data suggested that it gave them too much of an advantage when it came to soloing green heroics and things like that.. I don't know. <div></div>

[Kit_Oturea]

<P>A far more important question is not what we can do to not lose parry as priests.</P> <P> </P> <P>It is WHY are they nerfing priests and mages to "Make epic level encounters non-trival via altering buffs and heavy armor matched with avoidance"???</P> <P> </P> <P>What does priest and mage soloing have to do with epic raids with lots of buff stacking???</P> <P> </P> <P>This is perhaps the most craptastic thing they have done to the game.  Make it so priests and mages can not solo and when facing group mobs, die before they have a chance to react.  Great idea.</P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by Kit_Oturea on <span class=date_text>04-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:35 AM</span>

[See]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sebastien wrote:<BR>Heh.. that is more parry ability than a level 42 assassin with completely decked out gear and spiked AGI.. it does seem a bit out of balance.. however, I understand your point now.  Thank you for backing that up. =)<BR><BR>Maybe a better solution that SOE could consider is letting priests and mages keep the Parry skill, but setting a lower cap each level (ie 1/2, 1/3, or even 1/4 the normal).  People might find that pill easier to swallow.  Personally I do not think that having parry overpowers mages.. they still go down like bricks as far as I have seen.. but perhaps SOE's data suggested that it gave them too much of an advantage when it came to soloing green heroics and things like that.. I don't know.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well the whole thing is somewhat nonsensical to begin with.  I'll be the first to say that, since I cannot wield a sword, I should have never had Parry.  It's a swordsman skill.  I wield a staff and should have Block instead.  Now the damage done (melee if you will) by either weapon that I can wield (dagger or staff) is capped at 150 piercing or 150 crushing - or equivalent to a level 30 mob.  I'd somewhat understand if <DIV>the defensive capabilities were tied to that.  If I equip a dagger, I should have no defensive modifiers.  If I equip a staff then I should have defensive capabilities equal to that of my offensive capabilities.  However, as it is my Parry skill is capped at 179 (level 35.<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> so it is rare that I ever Parry anything anyway.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In the long post that got eaten I drew some parallels in Morrgards post where the first line talks about a VLA wearer having a greater chance to avoid than a Heavy wearer.  The problem is that this simply is not true.  At least not when you couple it with the fact that VLA wearers are being stripped of their avoidance modifiers. IE: mages losing Parry.  All I really want is a straight answer.  I'm just tired of posts such as the one MG made on combat changes that dance in circles and contradict themselves every other line.  Seeko is my character.  I just want to understand him in order to make him the best Necromancer possible.  Changes that say:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>"VLA wearers, you'll have the greatest chance to avoid!  Oh, but even though your ARMOR will have the greatest chance, your character is losing 60% of his avoidance abilities"</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV>help no one.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then when you factor in exactly how crappy every single piece of T5 VLA really is, the frustration becomes overwhelming.  Tie that to the fact that our classes have been promised some help in the DPS department since LU#2, now to be told "sorry!" yet again and it becomes just plain laughable.  At the end of the day, SOE has effectively said this:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>"Summoners, we know your damage output sucks.  We know that your buffs and group utilities suck too.  But rather than fix either, we're going to make your defensive abilities suck equally as much so maybe you should just quit - or reroll as a class that we like, because we just don't care about pet classes. I mean, I know that we sold this game with <STRONG>32 distinct subclasses </STRONG>but at the end of the day we really only want to support four of them"</EM></DIV>

[Sebastien]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Seeko wrote: <div>As of right now my total avoidance is 52.5%.  My Base is 24.8% amd my Parry is 36.8%.  Mages don't get Block or Deflection already.  (Don't ask me how 24.8 + 36.8 = 52.5, that's SOE math) </div><hr></blockquote> BTW, that's because SOE is doing it's math corrrectly. Your base chance to dodge an attack is 24.8%. That means you'd get hit 75.2% of the time.  But of those times when you do get hit, you have a 36.8% chance to parry.  75.2% x .368 = 27.7% 24.8% + 27.7% = 52.5% In other words, you cannot parry if you have already dodged.  That was the mistake in your math, but SOE got it right.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Sebastien on <span class=date_text>04-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:21 AM</span>

[Geohi]

<span><blockquote><hr>Blackguard wrote:Hopefully peppering this information all around the forums will help be clear about our intentions with the combat changes: The goal is to keep solo and small group play very similar to the way it is now. That is, not overly challenging and at the same time, not at all trivial. <b>Groups and raids taking on powerful encounters should meet a greater challenge. Again, they won't be so challenging that you can't take them on, but we don't want powerful encounters to be trivialized as they sometimes can be now.</b> <div></div><hr></blockquote> The Fact of the matter is that as of now, most raid encounters ARE impossible.  At least for raids that arn't level 50, fully geared with the best stuff from Nektropus and prismatics.  You're going off guilds like Ardent Legions feedback, and theya re happy with the new adjustments, giving them a new challange for a week or two.  However, you are leaving smaller guilds that didn't rush to get geared within the first 2 months (not that that is a bad thing in the dust.  My guild and I could handle Arch Lich, the CL instance, and Rognog perfectly fine and we didn't even get that much out of it, considering master chests were slim to none.  Then you changed it and we get swarmed by 100s of adds or nuked for 10k.  Ardent Legion may be able to deal with this, but smaller guilds just can't.   Don't even talk about contested spawns, we could handle Vaz ' Gok, but when he pops at least 4 guilds show up at his spawn point and its whoever can assemble the raid force fast enough.  Theres simply not enough of these spawns to certify a 1 week spawn time.  Guilds can't put roatations like in EQ1 on 1 week spawn mobs.  Also , these are just one mobs, and there are no raid "zones" to keep guilds entertained. We resort to doing quests like "To Speak as a Dragon", but for how long?  With these changes raids will become even HARDER and there will be no raid content we can handle. You had it fine, SoE, raids were fun for everyone, even though they didn't yield much of a reward.  We were progressing nicely and doing fine, and then you make a simple yet fun mobs spawn hundreds of adds and the "fun factor" of raiding instantly goes down about 6 notches. Also, if you want to make Raid encounters be this much harder and more difficult than solo and group encounters, you need to increase the loot.  Even IF we figure out a working strategy for these mobs, it is simply not worth our time.  From the instanced raids like the Arch Lice, the chances of dropping a amster chest are about 1/4.  If a master chest does NOT drop, the encounter was simply a waste of time.  If a master chest DOES drop, 1 person gets a useful item. ONE.  Think about that.  Its all about Risk Vs. Reward. -Geo</span><div></div>

[Tiggercat]

<DIV>First post ever..., having been a EQ1 addict and now EQ2 and thru all the changes I have been quiet and suffered. I have just some general thoughts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On the plus side.., graphics are amazing. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I miss the style of play from EQ1., I have no idea why there is a difference between solo mobs and group mobs in EQ2. Why not leave it the way it was. There was no problem with the mob structure was in EQ1., in my humblest of opinions who cares if it is a group or solo mob..., if the mobs are not challenging in a certain zone.., move to a different zone. Now all that has been done is limit the number of mobs available to both soloist and groups., Mobs are to hard for solo encounters and much to easy for groups. As far as agro goes.., if a group of mobs agro., they agro. Use the people you have in your group to deal with the problem. Each class had abilitles that required skill and quick thinking. There seemed to be a certain skill in combat in EQ1 that is missing in the sequel (to bad that even in gaming the sequel is pale in conparison to the orginal) Perhaps sending a tank into a room and having 10 mobs beat on him is fun for some people. I miss the chanters mezzing.., the shammys root/parking adds and the droods kiting away adds if need be. It just seemed to me that it required a higher skill lvl and teamwork to be sucessfull in EQ1. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please tell me why is everything a quest. It seems that everything in EQ2 required a six hour prep quest. Once again., perhaps endless running around from zone to zone., talking to numerous NPC's is fun for some people. Do people have 6., 8., 10 hours to put into all of this running around. Now not only do you have to plead..., beg and resign yourself to tell hell to get a decent group., you have to convince everyone to work on a specific quest (which never works) Half the time i have found you end up starting the quest over again for all those that need it., then by the time you get everyone on the same spot on the quest., its to late to do anything and you have to regroup.., get additional people because no one has the amount of time required to complete a quest. Even if you get everyone together to work on a quest., you hear..., oh i need 5 of this mob..., 21 of these.., 7 of those. I am actually suprised I have even completed any quests at all. Please don't get me started on the drops in EQ2.., as in where are they.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as soloing in EQ2 as a 41 fury., and if they nuke the parry skill forget about it..., I can barely solo green mobs in ferrott., not individual mobs (but grouped solo mobs) next to impossible. Spell are constantly interupted. I don't know if others share my thoughts or please correct me if you have a different opinion. Is EQ2 more challenging.., not by a long shot.., is it more frustrating and time consuming..., absolutely</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know.., by reading some other posts that the chance of this making any difference is a fantasy. Wouldn't it be great if they actually combine the best of both EQ1 and EQ2. The graphics are amazing., scenery  is beautiful., the armor looks wonderfull however EQ2 could have been great. I find that I am not playing for enjoyment anymore..., I'm just playing to finish a stupid quest.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Oghi]

<DIV>I, too, wonder if SOE has bitten off more than *we* can chew here.  If the issue is tanks becoming unhittable, why remove parry from mages and priests?  How is making it even *more* difficult for enchanters to solo necessary to balance guardians in high-end raid encounters?</DIV>

[Rock]

<DIV>"Blackguard wrote:<BR>Hopefully peppering this information all around the forums will help be clear about our intentions with the combat changes:<BR><BR>The goal is to keep solo and small group play very similar to the way it is now. That is, not overly challenging and at the same time, not at all trivial. <B>Groups and raids taking on powerful encounters should meet a greater challenge. Again, they won't be so challenging that you can't take them on, but we don't want powerful encounters to be trivialized as they sometimes can be now."</B></DIV> <P><STRONG></STRONG> </P> <P><STRONG></STRONG> </P> <P><STRONG>It appears that SOE intends to have 2 types of encounters. Mobs that can only be handled by very skilled players with uber gear and the vast unwashed masses killing unlimited solo mobs dropping vast amounts of body parts which can be sold for a few silver. Ever hear of a happy medium?</STRONG></P> <DIV><BR><BR></DIV>

[Tanyla]

<DIV>Just a reminder on parry ....  ANY one can parry that has a sword, axe, dagger.  A person yeilding a 2 by 4 can parry, there is NO reasonable reason to remove the ability from priest/mages and by doing so will in no way balance out why tanks become invulnerable.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><STRONG>Main Entry: par·ry<BR>Pronunciation: </STRONG>'par-E<BR><B>Function: </B><I>verb</I><BR><B>Inflected Form(s): par·ried; par·ry·ing</B> <BR><B>Etymology: </B>probably from French <I>parez,</I> imperative of <I>parer</I> to parry, from Old Provençal <I>parar,</I> from Latin <I>parare</I> to prepare —more at </FONT><A href="aol://4344:1708.D0049587.40157621.672503500/" target=_blank><FONT size=2>PARE</FONT></A><FONT size=2> <BR><B>Date: </B>1672<BR><I>intransitive senses</I><BR><B>1 :</B> to ward off a weapon or blow <BR><B>2 :</B> to evade or turn aside something <BR><I>transitive senses</I><BR><B>1 :</B> to ward off (as a blow) <BR><B>2 :</B> to evade especially by an adroit answer <<I>parry</I> an embarrassing question> <BR><B>- parry</B> <I>noun</I></FONT><BR></DIV>

[Darkstar]

<P>I just wanted to add that you all should check out the posts in the Dev Request section of In Testing.  After playing some on test with friends the last couple days and talking to people there I cant stress enough how much everyone should oppose this patch - especially if you are a leather-wearing priest or mage.</P> <P>If you are a Warden or Fury you will no longer be able to stand up to white-<FONT color=#ffff00>yellow</FONT> <STRONG>solo</STRONG> mobs, <FONT color=#0000cc>blue</FONT> or higher heroic mobs, or even many <FONT color=#33cc00>green</FONT> heroic mobs.  Worse any multi-mob encounters solo or heroic excepting green solo ones will slaughter you - without parry it becomes impossible to cast heals through constant interrupts and this patch decreases our mitigation also substantially.</P> <P>If you're a mage welcome to being a <EM>"1-hit wonder"</EM>  - <STRONG>any</STRONG> aggro and you die... not just in a fight, I mean run within range of an aggro mob and you'll be dead before you can hit sprint.  Its terrible ... and for some group encounters I noticed mobs singling out mages to attack with their AI and giving a special spoken statement like "Get the mage" or something.  So more mage aggro and no defense - we noticed no difference in wearing armor vs. being completely naked for mage defense.</P> <P>If this patch is supposed to fix 1 minor high end over-avoidance problem, who knows, it may do that - although from what the tanks on test say it does it at the cost of completely screwing up tank balance and rendering several classes best abilities viutually useless - also some tanks now tank better naked /boggle.  BUT this patch is an <STRONG>UNIMAGINABLY HUGE</STRONG> nerf on everyone else.  It completely changes the game and undoes everything that has been done to this point in terms of raising leather armor mitigation, increasing soloability, versatility in group composition everything.  Why they have wasted time on this steaming pile of sh.. er code when they could have been fixing bugs, fixing balance and working on the expansion I can't imagine. </P> <P><FONT size=3><STRONG>Bottom line: Cap avoidance by level, Drop this whole combat re-write mess like a radioactive Mr. Hanky, and get back to doing something positive.</STRONG></FONT></P>

[Tami]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DarkstarII wrote:<BR> <P>I just wanted to add that you all should check out the posts in the Dev Request section of In Testing.  After playing some on test with friends the last couple days and talking to people there I cant stress enough how much everyone should oppose this patch - especially if you are a leather-wearing priest or mage.</P> <P>If you are a Warden or Fury you will no longer be able to stand up to white-<FONT color=#ffff00>yellow</FONT> <STRONG>solo</STRONG> mobs, <FONT color=#0000cc>blue</FONT> or higher heroic mobs, or even many <FONT color=#33cc00>green</FONT> heroic mobs.  Worse any multi-mob encounters solo or heroic excepting green solo ones will slaughter you - without parry it becomes impossible to cast heals through constant interrupts and this patch decreases our mitigation also substantially.</P> <P>If you're a mage welcome to being a <EM>"1-hit wonder"</EM>  - <STRONG>any</STRONG> aggro and you die... not just in a fight, I mean run within range of an aggro mob and you'll be dead before you can hit sprint.  Its terrible ... and for some group encounters I noticed mobs singling out mages to attack with their AI and giving a special spoken statement like "Get the mage" or something.  So more mage aggro and no defense - we noticed no difference in wearing armor vs. being completely naked for mage defense.</P> <P>If this patch is supposed to fix 1 minor high end over-avoidance problem, who knows, it may do that - although from what the tanks on test say it does it at the cost of completely screwing up tank balance and rendering several classes best abilities viutually useless - also some tanks now tank better naked /boggle.  BUT this patch is an <STRONG>UNIMAGINABLY HUGE</STRONG> nerf on everyone else.  It completely changes the game and undoes everything that has been done to this point in terms of raising leather armor mitigation, increasing soloability, versatility in group composition everything.  Why they have wasted time on this steaming pile of sh.. er code when they could have been fixing bugs, fixing balance and working on the expansion I can't imagine. </P> <P><FONT size=3><STRONG>Bottom line: Cap avoidance by level, Drop this whole combat re-write mess like a radioactive Mr. Hanky, and get back to doing something positive.</STRONG></FONT></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I am totally against the design of this revamp, but <U>STAT-CAPS-ARE-BAD</U> ... please dont push that without understanding the lasting impact of caps.  There are plenty of posts explaining (including those I have written) why this is so.</P> <DIV>Part of the problem with this, it is hard to really see the vision they have without the fixing of broken spells and adjusting offense/healing to match.  That may address some of the gimping folks feel right now -BUT- again, the current system they have to deal with the defensive (and damage bonus) aspect is really poorly designed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Tamian on <span class=date_text>04-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:31 PM</span>

[Sebastien]

<span><blockquote><hr>DarkstarII wrote:<p>I just wanted to add that you all should check out the posts in the Dev Request section of In Testing.  After playing some on test with friends the last couple days and talking to people there I cant stress enough how much everyone should oppose this patch - especially if you are a leather-wearing priest or mage.</p><div></div><hr></blockquote> Why are you asking people from Live to support combat mechanics that aren't even going to be a part of their patch?  There is a reason they are being left out of that patch for Live, and it is so that SOE can further test and MODIFY them. Also, you report that soloing a blue heroic mob is something that you can just barely do now.  Isn't that the way it should be?  Heroic mobs are designed with rewards appropriate for groups of 4 to 6.  You are one person.  Finding yellow solo encounters challenging to solo?  That's what yellow means.. challenging.  Not saying these mechanics are perfect yet, but then again, neither is SOE.. so why are we feeding the paranoia? </span><div></div>

[Sebastien]

<span><blockquote><hr>Oghier wrote:<div></div> <div>I, too, wonder if SOE has bitten off more than *we* can chew here.  If the issue is tanks becoming unhittable, why remove parry from mages and priests?  How is making it even *more* difficult for enchanters to solo necessary to balance guardians in high-end raid encounters?</div><hr></blockquote> I agree that this change isn't consistent with that statement.  The only purpose of a change like that would be to reduce the effectiveness of priests and mages as soloists.  I know that druids are probably the best soloing class in the game, right up there with berserkers.. but playing an inquisitor I don't seem to solo particularly better than others, now that I have no stifle.  We have a wizard and also a necro in our guild that are both able to solo things that none of the rest of us can, so personally I never agreed that sorcerers and summoners were bad at soloing either.  But they really didn't seem to be in need of a nerf either, imo.</span><div></div>

[TheTravell]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Despair wrote:<BR> <DIV>I really am concerned about this.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- First off..inquisitors already get blessed with being able to wear plate armor.  The rest of us get shafted and have to wear light armor. And now our ability to avoid the hits coming at us is going to be lost as well?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Why can't the new plate mail theory (plate mail people get hit more often while very light armorer's can avoid more often) apply to everyone?  Why single out the Priest? Seems like this is going to go far from the "priest class balancing" that we have all been expecting since Inquisitors have the plate armor. <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Oh, so from now on only tank classes will be able to tank effectively ?!? ... errr, wait ...</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>Also....I don't agree with the idea of "caps".  The game is supposed to be a real place...something you can get completely emmersed in.....close to reality......heh...in my lifetime...I have never had some overhead rule say I couldn't get stronger or better in some way...doesn't make sense. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>And you <U>really</U> think that through training you'd become able to lift a 20 ton truck, or run at 30 mph ?! Of course you could ask some IRL friend of yours to cast you a strength enhancing spell or such but ... well I have my doubts ...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM><FONT size=2>Edited for typo.</FONT></EM></DIV><p>Message Edited by TheTraveller on <span class=date_text>04-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:39 PM</span>

[BWShellShocked]

<P>Just one thought on this.. if you're going to remove parry, then you should remove our ability to wield swords as well.</P> <P>Don't know about the Dev's experience with fencing (swordplay), but my son's instructor worked on parry techniques within the first couple of lessons.  Its basic to fencing (swordplay).  If we will no longer have the ability to parry, then it is not very realistic to have us able to use swords.</P>

[Vathral]

All these threads are pointless. SOE wont do anything after reading these threads. Healers are going to be fine. <div></div>

[imready2go]

<DIV>"Just one thought on this.. if you're going to remove parry, then you should remove our ability to wield swords as well."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh, great Shock - give 'em one more idea on things to nerf why don't ya'? :smileyvery-happy:</DIV>

[Oghi]

Many mages use staves.  Is there any weapon more useful for parrying than a staff?  I still do not understand how balancing avoidance issues for plate tanks requires priests and mages to take even more of a beating than they do now.

[bigmak20]

<div></div>SOE thinks priests solo too easy?  /boggle I can't solo most grey heroic; which is OK I understand that.  It can't recall ever being able to solo green heroic; I'm probably forgetting one or two; but generally never.  Too many HP required and my lowly templar can't dish it out.  Fact is; I virtually stopped soloing in my mid 20s.  Took FOREVER; was OOP after killing -any- MoB except the most simple of animals (is there a SLAYER TITLE FOR CRABS?  <font color="#ffff00" size="5"><b>Borekai; 39 Templar; SLAYER OF CRABS</b></font>) . So I look at this toon I spent so much time making into a decent healer and now abilities are being taken AWAY?  How can it be?  This class/toon is not overpowering in anything at all. <font size="5">BTW; I fenced in college and I know what a parry is.  A priest can parry darn well with a stick; thank you very much; and if you want to talk any sort of 'realism' the PRIEST'S PARRY ABILITY SHOULD BE INCREASED.  No reason I can't deflect incoming while chanting my chants.  The arm waving is visually appealing but not a component of the SPELL (VOICE/THOUGHT). </font><p>Message Edited by bigmak2010 on <span class=date_text>04-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:23 AM</span>

[Bad_Mojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Doom Prophet wrote:<BR> <DIV> <HR> Sebastien wrote:<BR>Good luck with that.  I have tried the peppering approach this morning to clear up some misconceptions about these changes, and it doesn't seem to be working well.  /shrug</DIV> <DIV> <HR>  </DIV> <DIV>Sebastien, can I ask you a question?  Why is it nearly all your postings are rated so low?  Is that because you are an idiot?  Thought so.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I disagree with a lot of what Sebastien posts as well, but at least I know better than to throw stones if I live in a glass house.</P> <P>Sebastien average message rating = <IMG alt="878 ratings - 2.6 average" src="http://eq2.i.lithium.com/i/skins/default/icon_rating_3.gif" border=0></P> <P>Doom Prophet average message rating = <IMG alt="13 ratings - 1.9 average" src="http://eq2.i.lithium.com/i/skins/default/icon_rating_2.gif" border=0></P>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bigmak2010 wrote:<BR> <P><FONT size=5>BTW; I fenced in college and I know what a parry is.  A priest can parry darn well with a stick; thank you very much; </FONT></P> <HR> <P>parry with a wooden stick?</P> <P>- yes if we are talking about japanese bamboo fighting sticks (usually wielded 2-handed)<BR>- maybe if we are talking about a solid oak stick (but rather blocking Robins Merry Men-style)<BR>- absolutely NO if your opponent wields a blade weapon against your wooden *whatever* :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P><FONT size=3>talking about any crush weapon its a <STRONG><FONT size=4>BIG NO</FONT> </STRONG>again.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>That means if you wanted to compare  RL and EQ2 <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><EM>25th Templar on Lucan</EM></FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Kit_Oturea]

<P>I play in live action games.</P> <P>You can EASILY parry with crushing weapons.  </P> <P> </P>

[LowfyrWildforge]

<P>Okay, I'm sure all of you are master martial artists, whatever.   That's not the point.</P> <P> </P> <P>First, take your "this is how it should be because that's how it would work in real life" garbage and deposit it in The Down Below, with the rest of the filth.  In case some of you haven't noticed, this is a fantasy game.  People fight huge monsters, lift 400 pounds, and use magic spells.  No one cares if falling objects accelerate faster than 9.8 meters a second.  No one cares that you have a rationalization, based on your fantasy calculations of the mass of Norrath.   Bottom line:  when you use the "real life" argument, you are declaring yourself an idiot.</P> <P>Now: let's talk about game balance, fun, and playability.</P> <P>Plate wielding healers are already punished for our heavy armor, in that we are generally considered less desirable compared to furies and mystics for healing because we have reactives, instead of wards, and lower heals/hp totals.   Don't get me wrong, I can still get groups, but if I'm directly competing with a hypotherical mystic, I'm going to lose out, assuming we are at comparably skilled as players.   Our main advantage is that when bad things happen, templars and inquisitors can survive for longer periods of time without dying.  This compensates for our lesser healing power.</P> <P>Our other benefit is that we can solo somewhat.  Not anywhere near what some casters or a paladin can do, but we can.   The xp is a lot slower, solo, naturally.  But it sure is nice to be able to do when I want to do something besides heal a group.   When I'm the healer, I don't nuke, unless we need some Heroic Opportunity completed.  When I solo, I'm all about the nukes and melee.    The proposed changes would very likely eliminate our ability to solo single green mobs.  That means group healing is the only option.    Since I'm more squishy now,  I only have my heals to fall back on, which are not as good.  So, besides making the entire healer archetype completely vanilla,  you make some of the healers not even desirable at all.</P> <P>If the rationalization for these changes is a few epic encounters, why not just change the epic encounters, then?  It seems a bit foolish to invalidate 33 percent of the healers in game.</P> <P>Finally, if you're not one of the classes that will be affected by this change, chances are you don't know what you're talking about.  You might, but it's a heck of a lot less likely.  So shut up.  I haven't spoken up on caster nuke issues, because that's none of my concern.</P> <P>xxoo,</P> <P>Lowfyr Wildforge</P> <P>40 Templar, Najena</P>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kit_Oturea wrote:<BR> <P>I play in live action games.</P> <P>You can EASILY parry with crushing weapons. <BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>since we have real mediavel castles in Europe I happened to visit several real armories. its a favourite joke of guides sometimes to make people just trying  to LIFT the weapons there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the toys you use at live action games weigh about 1/10 th of what a real CRUSHING weapon does. I remember once in castle Kreuzenstein (Lower Austria - yes the state is really called Lower Austria) struggeling to raise  a one-handed about 15-inch long iron mace (13th or14th century afair) - the beast did weigh well over 30 pounds!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I doubt  you can actually strike with a 30 pound crusher, Mr. Live-Action-Gamer - not to mention parrying an incoming blade strike before it cuts your head of :smileymad:</DIV><p>Message Edited by Tradeskill_Addict on <span class=date_text>04-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:26 AM</span>

[Morogoth Drakul]

<span><span> <blockquote><blockquote><hr> </blockquote> <div>since we have real mediavel castles in Europe I happened to visit several real armories. its a favourite joke of guides sometimes to make people just trying  to LIFT the weapons there.</div> <div> </div> <div>the toys you use at live action games weigh about 1/10 th of what a real CRUSHING weapon does. I remember once in castle Kreuzenstein (Lower Austria - yes the state is really called Lower Austria) struggeling to raise  a one-handed about 15-inch long iron mace (13th or14th century afair) - the beast did weigh well over 30 pounds!</div> <div> </div> <div>I doubt  you can actually strike with a 30 pound crusher, Mr. Live-Action-Gamer - not to mention parrying an incoming blade strike before it cuts your head of</div><p><span class="date_text"></span><span class="time_text"></span></p><hr></blockquote>Of course in game we are not constrain by the limits of real life.....but you already knew that didnt you.  I will have to agree with one of the previous posters, this is a fantasy game you in essence have the strength of 10 men and can hurl magical bolts and your foes....how does this pertain to rl? so any references to rl are meaningless. I dont think parry should be removed from the priest line I get hit enough soloing as it is, after that is implemented I dont forsee in soloing infact I might stop playing my templar completely and go to my scout.  I remember when I could solo yellow and orange solos and green^^, seems after this that wont be remotely possible as the interrupts will be more consistant.  </span></span> <div></div>

[Bad_Mojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LowfyrWildforge wrote: <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Plate wielding healers are already punished for our heavy armor, in that we are generally considered less desirable compared to furies and mystics for healing because we have reactives, instead of wards, and lower heals/hp totals. </FONT>  Don't get me wrong, I can still get groups, but if I'm directly competing with a hypotherical mystic, I'm going to lose out, assuming we are at comparably skilled as players.   Our main advantage is that when bad things happen, templars and inquisitors can survive for longer periods of time without dying.  This compensates for our lesser healing power.</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>/boggle</P> <P>Please tell me you are joking...<BR></P>

[Tu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LowfyrWildforge wrote:<BR> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#cc0033>Plate wielding healers are already punished for our heavy armor, in that we are generally considered less desirable compared to furies and mystics for healing because we have reactives, instead of wards, and lower heals/hp totals.</FONT>   Don't get me wrong, I can still get groups, but if I'm directly competing with a hypotherical mystic, I'm going to lose out, assuming we are at comparably skilled as players.   Our main advantage is that when bad things happen, templars and inquisitors can survive for longer periods of time without dying.  This compensates for our lesser healing power.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>You have no idea about the game known as EQ2 do you?  Templars and Inquisitors have the best heals in the game in reactives.  Nobody else comes close to having that kind of healing power that can be stacked on to a single tank.  Wards are almost worthless and regen you might as well forget about it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When a mob is hitting for over 3k a shot i would take the additional mitigation over 300 extra hps any day.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also unless you are on test with your character then you have no idea what you are talking about with the current changes and you should take your own advice ..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LowfyrWildforge wrote:<BR> <P> So shut up.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Ramsy02]

<span><blockquote><hr>Duntzzzz wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Blackdog183 wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Duntzzzz wrote: <p>OK.. here goes..</p> <p>I totally agree with the devs on every change that they are making at the moment.. There are some blatently obvious balance issues in the game as it stands with reguards to mitigation / avoidance / resistance / healing (So basically the whole combat system)  This was even more obvious to me last night, when I saw a level 47 caster SOLO a level 50 Group mob without any issues whatsoever, finising the fight with half power, and pulling another mob without a rest. Meanwhile, myself, and a few other guildies, have serious issues when it comes to soloing even-con group mobs and lower without being totally out of power or dead.  This screams to me that there are some overpowering issues that need to be addressed.  A single player SHOULD NOT be able to take down a goup encounter 3 levels higher, especially as easy as certain classes can now. whereas you get a Guardian who is made to take damage, try the same mob and last about 3 minutes before they are kissing dirt.  The entire system NEEDS a re-vamp..  </p> <p><font color="#cc0000">What you were seeing had nothing to do with avoidance and mitigation, that was simply an overpowered class.  Yes since the wizzy/warlock got their boost, they can and solo mobs well above their level without issues.  I solo my 40 warlock 5 levels higher without an issue...  And after this patch, that guardian will be biting dirt in less than 3 minutes, because his [Removed for Content] is gettin nerfed....</font></p> <p><font color="#ffff00">Just making a statement, that there shouldn't be any classes that should be able to solo, ^^ encounters 4-5 levels higher than them, no matter how skilled a player they are.</font></p> <p>Another one I ran into a few days ago in EF, was when I saw a scout SOLO Iceberg and Jack, and was 3 levels lower than them.. yes it took the person about 20 minutes to kill, but it is an EPIC encounter, and there shouldn't be a way for a single person take down a GRP x 2 mob. I agree that skill comes into play, but that is almost rediculous!</p> <p><font color="#cc0000">Aye, but I highly doubt he was straight up tanking the mob, therefore the problem isnt avoidance and mitigation.</font></p> <p><font color="#ffff00">Again, this was a statement about something that should not be possible to do. I know that this has nothing to do with avoidance and mitigation, but has everything to do with game mechanics.</font></p> <p>Another example.. Pally's currently are the BEST tanks.. they are a hybrid class. (Half healer / Half tank) Once you buff up a pally, there is absolutely no use for guardians in the game as they cannot take down the same encounters with the same level off efficiency for all group members.  Guardians are supposed to be the mitigation kings, and are currently out mitigated by other classes that should be getting hit more often, and take more damage. This is currently not how the system is working.. There are some major issues with game mechanics the way they are now which ARE making certain epic encounters totally trivial, as opposed to fun and challenging.</p> <p><font color="#cc0000">Im cant speak from firsthand experience on the issue of tanks buffing to stupid high levels of avoidance, but I can tell you what ive seen here.  What I have seen most people on the forums say, it was actually guradians that were achieving this with ease.  I like the comment about get hit more often and take more damage..this shows me you have little knowledge of how the tanks are supposed to work.  Guardian/zerker is meant to be high mit/low avoid, crusaders are med mit/med avoid, and brawlers are high avoid/low mit.  Problem atm is that mainly guardians are achieving high mit/insane avoid.  </font></p> <p><font color="#ffff00">Speaking from first hand experience, A level 50 Guardian, cannot tank the same level mob as efficiently as a level 50 Pally with the same gear and group dynamics. I agree that pally's should get hit less, but they SHOULD get hit harder. as well Guardians should get hit more, but mitigate more of that damage to balance it out.</font></p> <p>I applaud the devs on realizing that there are some serious issues, and doing everything they can to make sure that this game isn't destroyed  by having 100000 toons of the 3-4 classes that are currently close to invulnerable with the right skills / buffs. What's the point of playing a game that is trivial? Everyone should welcome these changes, as it will bring more truely SKILLED players together, and make room for ALL classes to be needed in a group to defeat challenging encounters instead of the way it is working now.</p> <p><font color="#cc0000">Just think maybe you should look at the actual numbers before making that statement, because if you look aorund, you will a zillion warriors and helluva lot less of crusaders and brawlers.  And it wasnt 3-4 classes that are nearly invuln, from all reports that I have seen, its 1 or 2, and the numbers of poeple actually using the exploit were minimal.</font></p> <p><font color="#ffff00">This was more to put the point accross that the current game mechanics need work, and I am glad that they are spending the effort to make this game fun and challenging as opposed to trivial. The entire combat system NEEDS a revamp, and from what I've seen the people complaining the most about these changes are the ones who are currently soloing the ^^ encounters 3-4 levels higher than them with ease for un-heard of XP, and are [Removed for Content] that they will have to actually have to use a little effort and teamwork to defeat what SHOULD be challenging encounters.</font></p> <p><img src="http://homepage.mac.com/jjs_graphics/eilsigc.gif"></p> <hr> </blockquote> <div></div> <p>Message Edited by Blackdog183 on <span class="date_text">04-15-2005</span> <span class="time_text">11:21 AM</span> </p><hr> </blockquote> <div><font color="#ffff00"></font></div><hr></blockquote>Im mainly pointing out the fact pally/guardians should be balanced out defensively= WRONG Most people are forgetting as it stands right now. Pallys are way overpowered compared to Guardians. I have a paladin friend that solos named epic mobsx2 4-5 lvls lower than him. Also, currently solos the same and Heroic named mobs with ease. Now i ask how is this possible? They got HEALS and pretty much the same defensive capabilities as Guardians. Yes only 1 MAJOR difference is . Guardians can use Towe shields and Paladins can only use Kite shields.. But if you think about it. How is that balanced ? Kite shield  depending on what you wear, is only about 100ac lower than same tier Tower shields. So basically now with new changes to kite/tower shield there will be hardly any difference in mitration/avoidance . Tower being 20%, Kite Being 1% . I mean, whats a big deal with a 1% ac difference with a shield thats 800 ? 8? wow..  AND Paladins can HEAL oh ya they can ALSO battle rez !!  With pally being able to heal they will always beable to trivialize mobs no matter  but this will definitly fix the Guardians being able to. I think the big thing that SOE needs to do here is Changing how armor works. The reason theres so many problems now is, all classes that use Heavy armor can use the same stuff.. warriors/guardians/sk/clerics/beserkers. In EQ1( i know this is a different game) they made it so warriors had higher ac equipable armor than other tank classes which really made this issue not to big of a problem. I mean if a guardian is suppose to be best Tank class.. thats why we give up healing abilities/offensive abilities. SOe is trying to make every class tank the same defensively which IMO is not possible without Guadians all retiring. What i mean by BEST tank class is, WE are the only class that is ALL DEFENSIVE. other tank classes have healing abilities(Pally), DPS(sk, beserker) , and here we are, guadians that have all defensive abilities but tank same if not worst because it takes more skill as a guardian to hold argo ..  Pallies have healing plus taunts for argo, SK has DPS for argo plus taunts , same with beserkers plus taunts. In Conclusion  guardians should have the highest mitgration and even avoidance than the other heavy armor tank classes. Paladins have heals/rezes instead , Beserkers have Major DPS compared to guardians . ShadowKnights have alot More DPS Compared to guardians Guardians, But now they all tank about the same(well not noticably different) if not (in some cases) better than a guardian Thats my 2cents </span><div></div>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Morogoth Drakul wrote:<BR><SPAN><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>since we have real mediavel castles in Europe I happened to visit several real armories. its a favourite joke of guides sometimes to make people just trying  to LIFT the weapons there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the toys you use at live action games weigh about 1/10 th of what a real CRUSHING weapon does. I remember once in castle Kreuzenstein (Lower Austria - yes the state is really called Lower Austria) struggeling to raise  a one-handed about 15-inch long iron mace (13th or14th century afair) - the beast did weigh well over 30 pounds!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I doubt  you can actually strike with a 30 pound crusher, Mr. Live-Action-Gamer - not to mention parrying an incoming blade strike before it cuts your head of</DIV> <P><SPAN class=date_text></SPAN><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Of course in game we are not constrain by the limits of real life.....but you already knew that didnt you.  </SPAN></SPAN><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I was replying to someone taking in his live-action-game experience as a prove that parrying with crushing wps is possible.....but you allready knew that didn't you?....you just ignored it, right?

[Bad_Mojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kit_Oturea wrote:<BR> <P>I play in live action games.</P> <P>You can EASILY parry with crushing weapons. <BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>since we have real mediavel castles in Europe I happened to visit several real armories. its a favourite joke of guides sometimes to make people just trying  to LIFT the weapons there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the toys you use at live action games weigh about 1/10 th of what a real CRUSHING weapon does. I remember once in castle Kreuzenstein (Lower Austria - yes the state is really called Lower Austria) struggeling to raise  a one-handed about 15-inch long iron mace (13th or14th century afair) - the beast did weigh well over 30 pounds!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I doubt  you can actually strike with a 30 pound crusher, Mr. Live-Action-Gamer - not to mention parrying an incoming blade strike before it cuts your head of :smileymad:</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Tradeskill_Addict on <SPAN class=date_text>04-22-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:26 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>It's probably fair to note here that back then, 30 pound maces existed because people <EM>could</EM> actually lift them and wield them efficiently.  This isn't about how well Joe Blow in Kansas who plays computer games all day can lift a 30 pound mace and actually use it.  It's about how someone native to the time period who actually trained (generally from a very young age) is able to lift that 30 pound mace and use it.  I think it's safe to say that if 30 pound maces were that hard for the good folks of Kreuzenstein to use, you would never have seen it on that tour... because they wouldn't have wasted the metal and time making it.  As for the entire 30 pound thing altogether, are you sure it just didn't <EM>feel</EM> like it weighed over 30 pounds? That's extremely heavy for a one handed weapon.<p>Message Edited by Bad_Mojo on <span class=date_text>04-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:00 PM</span>

[See]

<P>Parry, as a combat art, is a fencing term.  One does not parry with a staff.  One deflects with a staff.  One blocks with a staff.  The dictionary posting above seemed to intentionally leave out the last part of the definition that said <EM>"...as in fencing."</EM></P> <P><A href="http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=parry" target=_blank>http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=parry</A></P> <P>That's just for clarification, not an endorsement for (or against) the current combat changes.</P>

[Bad_Mojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Seeko wrote:<BR> <P>Parry, as a combat art, is a fencing term.  <FONT color=#ffff00>One does not parry with a staff.  One deflects with a staff</FONT>.  One blocks with a staff.  The dictionary posting above seemed to intentionally leave out the last part of the definition that said <EM>"...as in fencing."</EM></P> <P><A href="http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=parry" target=_blank>http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=parry</A></P> <P>That's just for clarification, not an endorsement for (or against) the current combat changes.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I agree,  it should also be pointed out though that the link you posted uses the word "deflect" or "deflecting" in every definition of parry with the exception of the verbal one.  I think it's safe to assume that as far as mechanics go, they can be interchanged for most purposes.  I think you are dead on when you say "parry is a fencing term," as in the word itself probably originated with fencing... but a rose by any other name is still a rose.  We can maybe all put the semantics behind us now <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <p>Message Edited by Bad_Mojo on <span class=date_text>04-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:52 PM</span>

[Katzentat]

<DIV>Will make soloing Harder...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Velda]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Konda X wrote:<BR> <DIV>30 Warden here, and I'm not so much upset about losing the ability to parry but with how it changes class balance.  Tanks are already godly and nobody can keep up with them in the solo game.  They can easily take groups of green con heroic ^^ encounters without even getting hit, I as a priest however am very limited in being able to solo.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Right now fully buffed I have 52% avoidance, 21.5% of that is parry, and in the current state I have a hard time taking a 25^^ single pull without dying.  Mages can do it with roots or pets, tanks can do it without even getting hit, but I rely on my avoidance because of my light armor.  I dont have enough power to kill something and keep myself healed with the current avoidance, this makes it so much harder.  I really dont want to be required to group all the time.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Clerics get heavy armor, and I know we are supposed to be balanced by the ability to do more damage, but as I level up the damage I do just gets worse and worse.  Before making a change like this place revamp some other aspects of the prist class, or change tanks so they actually NEED HEALS, instead of making a difficult job even harder to play.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>/agree </P> <P>Defilers have the same soloing issues... ^^ encounters eat our power for lunch, even if they're blue / green and it gets worse at the higher levels. Apparently Healers are not a Solo class, at least not with the current game dynamics. Even some even and higher solo mobs are a challenge as we can't kill them fast enough.""</P> <P> </P> <P>I just had to post on this part alone... Templars can't solo  ANY mobs that aren't conned as "suited for an individual" period.  We are the very lowest dps in the game.  At level 43 I watch all other classes soloing group mobs that would wipe the floor with me.  I'm wearing all orange gear using Hiero Crook  or Moonlight hammer/shield.  I have good wisdom and my spells are all at least App4... yet I couldn't even scratch the mobs I see Furies and Wardens soloing (with some risk I'll admit) and forget about melee classes and what they solo.  I watch them tear thru groups like it's no one's business... it's no wonder that finding a group is nearly impossible... we're the worst dps, slowest levelers, and we have almost the worst heals in the game.  And now they want to make us suck even more.  We even have the crappiest buffs.... I see wardens buffing my Wis thru the roof, shamans with str/agi buffs galore and sow, but hey, I can make lower level people bow!  And I can give a group a couple hundred extra hps at most.... means very little when I'm trying to heal a 50 guardian that has around 6900 hps and my best heal does 690 hps with a 4 sec cast time and a 9 sec recast time.  Now if the mobs would just stop swinging long enough for me to cast that 3 or 4 times.... instead of nerfing us in any way they need to address healing and solo ability because right now Templars have no solo ability compared to all other classes (except illusionists).   I feel really bad for all 3 or 4 of them in the game.  I don't see why it's a requirement for any decent xp group to have 2 healers minimum.  If anything it should be more like EQ1... Clerics (Templars / Inquisitors?) should be flat out the mainstay healers period.  Druids and Shaman should be healers but more in a buffing/debuffing way since they already have all those buff spells.  No matter what they do healing classes are going to get the shaft because there's no easy way in this game to balance the healing duties without screwing someone over.  </P> <P> </P></DIV>

[otlg]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Veldaar wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P>I just had to post on this part alone... Templars can't solo  ANY mobs that aren't conned as "suited for an individual" period. <BR></P> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Ummmm... And you want to be able to single handedly kill stuff marked as 'a good fight for 3 or more'??????</P> <P>Ok guys, I play a Fury on live and a Druid on test.  I'm not super plussed about the removal of parry.  Infact I think it's a daft idea to do it, *but*, just because some of you have been spoiled by basically being superman in the game and soloing red con double up group encounters with a heoric twist and reverse tuck whatever... come on...</P> <P>Obviously no one should be able to solo group encounters IMHO unless the are well grey.  Sony's *biggest* mistake (again IMHO) was releasing this in a broken fashion in the first place.  If you all hadn't gotten completely used to basically *ignoring* the con system, this wouldn't have been a problem.</P> <P>Simple fact is, those of us that got used to it playing that way feel this sucks.  Those that will join after these changes will have no idea and it will make perfect sense to them: "Hey, that's a group encounter... and it kicked my a**, makes sense!".  Meanwhile half of you will be running around 'They broke my character, I'm going to quit'.  Booo-frickin-hoo.  Adapt or leave, just like in reallife folks.</P> <P>Osiri</P> <P>(PS Put parry back in <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )</P>

[Velda]

<P>As a 44 Templar I see all fighter subclasses soloing encounters designed for groups of 3 or more.  They do it all the time.  It's no wonder they level so fast and don't want to group all that much.  I also see furies, wardens, rangers, warlocks, wizards and a few other classes that can and do solo "group of 3 or more" encounters.  There's simply no rhyme or reason anyone should be able to do this.  </P> <P>The devs keep talking about balance and all subclasses doing their "job" equally well just differently.  Well I'm sorry to say that's never going to happen.  If you give Templars good straight up and/or reactive heals... you have to give them to druids and shamans too otherwise they'll be left out of the group game because people do what they did in EQ1.. take a cleric they're the best.  If you give druids and shamans good heals, then you leave the Templars out in the cold because druids and shaman have way better buffs than Templars.  There's no way they will be able to balance this without making all priest classes carbon copies of each other which then negates the reason for having subclasses.  </P> <P>As for parry, I can't imagine any good reason for taking it away.  We already have enough problems with interrupts and getting beat down.  Heavy armor is nearly useless.  It's sad that when I look at armor I look at the resists and stats rather than the mitigation.   I don't see how 11 points of damage from a dot spell should consistently interrupt me when I have 219 skill in all my spell classes and I'm level 44 with something around 3500+ hps... that's a minor scratch at best and shouldn't interrupt my spell casting... now a barrage of 950 from a giant in Permafrost ya that should easily interrupt me.  </P> <P> </P> <P>As said pretty much everywhere else,  EQ2 is still in beta only we're paying for it.  Altho I don't anticipate they'll be getting my money much longer as there are more and more options out there in the gaming market.  </P>

[otlg]

<DIV>Veldaar:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For the record, my problem wasn't with your desire to be on equal footing.  However, having said that, <STRONG>*no one*</STRONG> should be soloing groups for '3 or more'.  At least not <STRONG>logically</STRONG>.  Problem is, we're all a bunch of spoiled rotten brats now, who've grown a customed to <STRONG>totally ignoring </STRONG>the con system.  If you actually read what the con system says, you'll see people are doing <STRONG>way</STRONG> too many encounters that 'shouldn't' be possible <EM>(and there just aren't that many 'good' players for the number of those fights)</EM>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And if you think you get beat down wearing plate, put on the leathers my friend.  Your life ain't so bad...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Osiri</DIV>

[Texasguy24]

<DIV>One word: weak. This thread has gotten really lame... people claiming they go to castles and stuff? [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]?  Seriousely, who cares? It's a game.. priests don't need to parry.. I am one. a warden, I don't want parry.. I want dodge. I think light armor wearers should be dodging, not parrying.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally, at this point, I don't care what templars think. They don't need parry either, they have plate armor. Quit whining, you're EQ's spoiled little brats =P Just take your plate mitigation, your non aggroing, super efficient healing, poor mistreated self, and get lost. =D </DIV>

[MadisonPark]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Texasguy24 wrote:<BR> <DIV>One word: weak. This thread has gotten really lame... people claiming they go to castles and stuff? [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]?  Seriousely, who cares? It's a game.. priests don't need to parry.. I am one. a warden, I don't want parry.. I want dodge. I think light armor wearers should be dodging, not parrying.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally, at this point, I don't care what templars think. They don't need parry either, they have plate armor. Quit whining, you're EQ's spoiled little brats =P Just take your plate mitigation, your non aggroing, super efficient healing, poor mistreated self, and get lost. =D</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Completely ignoring how self involved you sound, lets put it this way. Right now, as a self buffed, well equipped level 50 templar I have 50%- 70% mitigation  (the high side includes mitigation procs from my various heals, and only last for about 15 seconds at a time) and 55% avoidance.  This avoidance is unbuffed, as templars have no defense, avoidance or agility buffs. This is comprised of 25% base, 25% parry and the rest is block ( i forget the number, but i think its around 5% as I use a buckler). With my current avoidance, fighting a mob that is any con above grey, I get interupted 4 out of 5 casts. I can completely forget casting anything with a cast time of longer than 3 seconds. Losing my 25% parry, who knows how much base because of heavy armor, and my block down to 3%, Id estimate my avoidance going down to about 10%. Imagine the interupt rate then. Clerics have the lowest hp of all the priests to compensate for their heavy armor ( similiarly equiped druids that I know can buff their hp to 500 points higher), well this is all good and fine, because were getting hit for less damage. Only problem being that will be hit so often, and consequently interupted, that we wont be albe to heal our selves with our "non aggroing, super efficient" reactives. Non agroing I might want to mention being fixed most likely when these combat changes take effect. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*edit: proper grammar = my friend*</DIV><p>Message Edited by MadisonPark on <span class=date_text>04-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:21 PM</span>

[Chanliang]

For me removing parry might be last hit, I have currently level 39 mystic very well equipped all spells are adept1 or better and I solo 70% of my playing time. Currently I have little over 50% mitigation 49.1% avoidance (parry about 32%). Currently my debuffs hardly effect of mobs so all I really have is spell damage, melee and sta debuffs which allows me to solo relatively well but slow. I currently have to cast 5sec aoe nuke for example 2-4 times on group encounters (3-4 x 1-2 arrow down greens or 2-3x2 arrow down blues). Some groups of 3 greens I can also solo but can't really get off 5sec aoe on them ever.  I get occasionally interrupted even on my 1sec heals. If parry will be removed and seems that block will be also tad lower my soloing times are well over as will game be. As a caster class interrupts are our worst nightmare and we need something to enable us to be able to solo. You can't solo if you have to use all your power for healing cause we need power for dealing damage as our melee is crap at best. If we're meant to use our power more or less on healing then SOE needs to make us melee/caster class. In my books and if you look up our skills, equipment we aren't pure casters. We are or least should be more hybrid melee/caster class. Maybe we aren't suppose to solo heroic encounters but c'mon, we are talking about greens sometimes perhaps easiest blues. They are well below our level so they should be doable to some extend. There is no sane reason for removing parry from priests, none. If someone tries to tell that we're pure casters it's bull****, if you can wield and swing sword, heavy maces, morning stars, spears, hammers, use heavy/medium/light armor we aren't even close on caster class. Unfortunately I don't have character on test, would play if I could make copy of my char to test so can't tell how bad this is but even from current mechanics on live I've already problems with interrupts and staying alive this change will make it a lot worse. SO PLEASE RECONSIDER IT AGAIN (and again and again...) <div></div>

[Morogoth Drakul]

<span><blockquote><hr>Chanliang wrote:For me removing parry might be last hit, I have currently level 39 mystic very well equipped all spells are adept1 or better and I solo 70% of my playing time. Currently I have little over 50% mitigation 49.1% avoidance (parry about 32%). Currently my debuffs hardly effect of mobs so all I really have is spell damage, melee and sta debuffs which allows me to solo relatively well but slow. I currently have to cast 5sec aoe nuke for example 2-4 times on group encounters (3-4 x 1-2 arrow down greens or 2-3x2 arrow down blues). Some groups of 3 greens I can also solo but can't really get off 5sec aoe on them ever.  I get occasionally interrupted even on my 1sec heals. If parry will be removed and seems that block will be also tad lower my soloing times are well over as will game be. As a caster class interrupts are our worst nightmare and we need something to enable us to be able to solo. You can't solo if you have to use all your power for healing cause we need power for dealing damage as our melee is crap at best. If we're meant to use our power more or less on healing then SOE needs to make us melee/caster class. In my books and if you look up our skills, equipment we aren't pure casters. We are or least should be more hybrid melee/caster class. Maybe we aren't suppose to solo heroic encounters but c'mon, we are talking about greens sometimes perhaps easiest blues. They are well below our level so they should be doable to some extend. There is no sane reason for removing parry from priests, none. If someone tries to tell that we're pure casters it's bull****, if you can wield and swing sword, heavy maces, morning stars, spears, hammers, use heavy/medium/light armor we aren't even close on caster class. Unfortunately I don't have character on test, would play if I could make copy of my char to test so can't tell how bad this is but even from current mechanics on live I've already problems with interrupts and staying alive this change will make it a lot worse. SO PLEASE RECONSIDER IT AGAIN (and again and again...) <div></div><hr></blockquote>agreed. half my ability to avoid hits is parry as i dont use a buckler most times...which is only 5% anyway.  If this was lost There would be no soloing for me at all, even on solo mobs. On my pure opion... SOE screwed every class in the game except the tanks in soloing.  As a mage I use to solo stuff all the time, very very hard if at all now unless your a summoner type.  As a scout..i guess it just depends on too many factors (bows, poisons, environmet to fight. the mob itself).  As a healer (and Ive only played Cleric so I cant speak for the other classes) but I get chewed up by blue solos sometimes. Dont get me wrong though I can solo white/yellow solos as a templar and some oranges, depends on the mob alot too.  I think all the classes should be able to solo at their level (i.e white con solo) at the least but some cant right now, and without parry i doubt i could. SOE please think about the things you do to us before you do it.  AND FOR ONCE LISTEN TO YOU PAYING CUSTOMERS.</span><div></div>

[Heiro]

<P>lvl 37 -38 on Wednesday 5/11 night in Feerrott  soloing groups of heroic / normal  -4/5 mob groups - white / yellow / orange (no arrows or one down).</P> <P> </P> <P>Not really missing the parry all that much.  </P> <DIV>Havent been having any problems soloing...</DIV> <DIV>Dont see what all the hub-bub is about ...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Captain Ulissariusss or whatever his name is was a challenge though ... tough mob to solo  even green <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[mistress_darknes]

<P>Wardens are stuck with light armor too,</P> <P>we will be killed in one blow, how will we keep the tank or our group standing, when we will have to be healing ourselves all the time.</P> <P>the only way we can keep the group safe is if we can parry the attacks and cast heals on our group,</P> <P>uhg</P> <P> so tired of nerf  this nerf that,</P> <P>why start the game with something if your just going to remove it.</P> <P>same thing in Starwars hooked us then  nerfed us to death and we left the game.</P> <P> </P> <P>S</P>

[TerrorRising]

<DIV>Right now, healers, especially inquisitors/templars, get the snot knocked out of them by greens, even no arrow greens. Trying to solo in high lvl zones as a cleric is tough if not impossible. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The main thing now is that clerics need parry in groups when the tank dies to stay alive long enough to either let someone else pick up the aggr or to battle-revive the tank and allow him/her to re-establish aggression. If you remove parry without adequate compensation to the priest class (or whatever you call the first level), they are going to die before the aggression can be shifted, and then the rest of the group will die. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, I've seen mobs ignore my damage pull to go straight for the priest because of the buffs in place (no casting occurs during pulls). If I don't have time to cast my spells, especially with mobs doing 800+ hits, the priest is toast with its little buckler shield. While priests should not be tanking, they should be able to take some good hits, even at upper levels (albeit dodging, parrying, or blocking) while the tank establishes aggression. Come on guys, priests are rice-paper pure casters. Give them a little defense or give them something else for what you are taking away (along the same line, please).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>