Please Stop the Game Design Changes . . .

[LobaLobaLo]

<DIV>. . . or I won't renew my subscription (I know no one cares, tia).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Revamping the combat, stat, and buff systems at this point in the game just reveals that you, the game designers, have no coherent plan, nor do you adequately test this changes before they go live.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm tired of paying to play as a beta-tester.  I'm tired of playing in your poorly thought-out world.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Leave well-enough alone and work on content and improvements to classes, not systemic/class nerfs.</DIV>

[Baelzharon]

I understand your frustration but currently right now Vanguard wearing tanks that have their avoidance/parry mega-buffed are nearly invincible. What damage does get through to them is heavily mitigated and for the most part Guardians are the be all end all only choice for any end game tanking period. It's a glaring problem that's caused a lot of other fighter class players to wonder what the faarbottin' use they are in a raid. Someting has to change to balance out the equation, and this is the first step to achieve this. I honestly do believe that 1/2 the problem is the way the devs created the content in the first place. Giving mobs a 200k Hps and a high physical damage attack and calling it a day is not the only way you can make end game content be tough. After the devs "fix" the invulnerable issue they really need to go back to revisit how these mobs fight. They should create content that is better tanked by classes that are designed better to tank them. For example, a mob that uses Disease to attack would be better tanked by an SK. A mob that maybe dispells, or has a nasty proc would be better tanked by the brawler types who could avoid the proc more often. Basically I feel the devs brought this problem onto themselves by making the mobs very 1 sided and easily defeated. Maybe by LU8 or 9 we'll see some combat that is more exciting then a heal rotation. <div></div>

[MiscreantPy]

<DIV>Such basic design changes shows they didn't have a clear idea when they started. Even now their system is really muddled and hard to understand. As a dirge I can self buff to nearly 300agi, but once I'm over 200agi it makes almost no difference. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think the only subclass thats working properly in game would be sorcerers. It's sad that they'll fix two classes so significantly and ignore the entire scout archtype.</DIV>

[Fennir]

<div></div>I'm quite the opposite as you, thank god. If they <b>didn't </b>attempt to continually fix the broken parts of this game (like the combat system), I wouldn't be renewing my subscription. But they are, so I have no problem continuing to play a game that is only getting better as time goes on. And you're right, you won't be missed. Let me know, though, when you find the MMOG that is perfect from the get-go and needs no fixing.  I'll be sure to join you after the rapture. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Fennir on <span class=date_text>04-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:51 AM</span>

[Ibis]

completely understand loba.  I'm pretty sick about it myself.  and if you want to know, the beta population told them not to release the game.  the sweeping changes over the last 6 patches reveals how right they were.  I just wish MG would stop being a *$%#&!ing mouthpiece and talk to players - someone should.  He is nothing like he was at Mobhunter, hes useless now, and thats a disappointment.  Gallenite has been the one I most enjoy reading when changes are being made. <div></div>

[LobaLobaLo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fennir wrote:<BR> I'm quite the opposite as you, thank god.<BR><BR>If they <B>didn't </B>attempt to continually fix the broken parts of this game (like the combat system), I wouldn't be renewing my subscription.<BR><BR>But they are, so I have no problem continuing to play a game that is only getting better as time goes on.<BR><BR>And you're right, you won't be missed.<BR><BR>Let me know, though, when you find the MMOG that is perfect from the get-go and needs no fixing.  I'll be sure to join you after the rapture.<BR> <P>Message Edited by Fennir on <SPAN class=date_text>04-14-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:51 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Tob,</P> <P>I can find agreement with you in that I'm impressed by their overall patching schedule so far.  It's delivered better than EQ1 and WoW.  But some of these changes are not fixes but experimentation.  It would be like buying a D&D box set without rules -- what then is the purpose of buying the set?  Flexbility is a good thing, but when the entire combat system is adjusted on a patch by patch basis, it's really bad.</P> <P>I don't know what impact the current changes on test will have for sure -- as a SK player, they read real bad to me, though.  And why should my responsibility to play on the test server to find out or test it.</P> <P>I also don't understand your statement: <BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE>Let me know, though, when you find the MMOG that is perfect from the get-go and needs no fixing. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Do the majority of people have such low expectations for game quality?  You paid for the boxed game, and you pay for monthly service.  How does your brain rectify this doublethink?  Not to mention the patches that break working parts of code -- since last patch, my armor graphics are hollow, and it looks bad.</P> <P>Like eq1, I really like eq2, but it's execution continues to drive me crazy.<BR></P>

[Fennir]

<div></div>Low expectations for game quality?  Sorry, we can't possibly be playing the same game if you honestly think of EQ2 as a low quality. Look, it's hard enough to make a good computer game for ONE person to play at a time, let alone 5, 10, 20, or thousands, and sometimes I just don't know how they do it. What I DO know, however, is that I would never, in a million years, want to be a MMOG developer, especially one obviously under pressure from the producers to release an unfinished game in time to fare well against its upcoming competition (something that happens to many game developers, including most of the online games I've played recently). All I can do is read what the developers have to say, and pay attention to the changes they make.  The only feeling I get from doing that, is that these devs care very much about their game and the enjoyment we get from playing it.  And every single time they patch, they fix something I consider broken.  Do they sometimes break other things or fail to fix the original problem?  Yes, but what do you expect when you have a game running on the sheer amount of code this one has to? No MMOG will ever turn out in practice the way it did in the developers minds when they came up with it and started coding it.  The people who play them are just too resourceful for that to ever happen. If people figure out ways to exploit the current system beyond the devs intentions (as they have), you can bet your *$%#&! it will be changed.  At least this time they've admitted they need a total revamp instead of just trying to throw bandaids at the problem, which they've done some of in the past. Let me put it this way:  IMO, this game is well worth what I paid up front, and what I pay monthly.  If I ever think it's not, I'll stop paying for it.  No one is forcing you to pay or play. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Fennir on <span class=date_text>04-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:13 PM</span>

[LobaLobaLo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fennir wrote:<BR> Low expectations for game quality?  Sorry, we can't possibly be playing the same game if you honestly think of EQ2 as a low quality.<BR><BR>Look, it's hard enough to make a good computer game for ONE person to play at a time, let alone 5, 10, 20, or thousands, and sometimes I just don't know how they do it.<BR><BR>What I DO know, however, is that I would never, in a million years, want to be a MMOG developer, especially one obviously under pressure from the producers to release an unfinished game in time to fare well against its upcoming competition (something that happens to many game developers, including most of the online games I've played recently).<BR><BR>All I can do is read what the developers have to say, and pay attention to the changes they make.  The only feeling I get from doing that, is that these devs care very much about their game and the enjoyment we get from playing it.  And every single time they patch, they fix something I consider broken.  Do they sometimes break other things or fail to fix the original problem?  Yes, but what do you expect when you have a game running on the sheer amount of code this one has to?<BR><BR>No MMOG will ever turn out in practice the way it did in the developers minds when they came up with it and started coding it.  The people who play them are just too resourceful for that to ever happen. If people figure out ways to exploit the current system beyond the devs intentions (as they have), you can bet your *$%#&! it will be changed.  At least this time they've admitted they need a total revamp instead of just trying to throw bandaids at the problem, which they've done some of in the past.<BR><BR>Let me put it this way:  IMO, this game is well worth what I paid up front, and what I pay monthly.  If I ever think it's not, I'll stop paying for it.  No one is forcing you to pay or play.<BR> <P>Message Edited by Fennir on <SPAN class=date_text>04-14-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:13 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You give way too much credit way too easily.  Not sure what generation you're part of, but it used to be that developers could make a combat system that would work without chronic patching.  It really wouldn't be hard to extrapolate from an old Wizardy combat system, for example.  MMORPGs are just hybrid MUD-FPSs -- nothing new, really.</P> <P>But your last point is right.  No one forces anyone to play.  Only thing that kinda sucks is that, if you dig the concept of the genre, no one is offering better at the moment.</P>

[Fennir]

I'm sorry. I don't see the point in continuing this discussion if you're going to suggest that it should be as easy to create a combat system for a game as complex as this one, as it was for older games not nearly as complex. Especially considering the fact that SOE is attempting to give each class the ability to fulfill its archtypical role (not easy). It's easy for me to give what you call "too much credit," because I have a great deal of fun with the game, and am sure I will after the patches hit, as well. To quote another poster: "adapt and overcome, don't whine and succumb."  And please don't mistake me for an SOE fanboy.  When something is broke, I don't like it and have no problem saying so.  When I couldn't afford to play my class because every fight cost me 15s in arrows, I complained.  And they fixed it.  Screw them, right? <div></div>

[B]

<P>Ever since beta I always had the feeling that this was a game designed by committee.  They made sweeping changes on the the spells/abilities lists and crafting system on the last week of beta. The last week.</P> <P>They give the impression to me that they have no idea where to take the game, and that their goals seem to change once a month :p  That they are reacting (to market forces and competition) more than being focused on a particular direction.</P>

[Miral]

I'm pretty much on the cliff with this update as well. I've seen soe do some stupid things and refuse to acknowledge the concerns of customers, but with the masses of people ive seen upset by this.... please don't make me jump, sony <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Barneba]

<P>These changes are being made for a reason - and trust me when I say its not to make the game worse.</P> <P>First of all - these changes are on test and people have been whining all day long since they read the test patch message even before they could log onto the test server and test these changes.</P> <P>I can understand people being worried about their character being "worse" off in the future doing what he/she is doing right now, but you gotta try to understand that a big reason for these changes are to make the game better and more challenging. I dont know about you guys - but fighting mobs without any danger and with nearly invulnable tank and super healing power knowing that the only thing that can go wrong is if half the group goes LD... So since you are not scared of dying all you are scared about is if no chest drops. Woohuu!</P> <P>Maybe you like having no challange and being safe all day long, but many of us want these changes - and we might not be as vocal as you on these boards - but we are vocal in the game via the /feedback and /bug commands.</P> <P>But these combat changes are not just about more challange - they are also about balancing. Yes, its the worst and hardest word in the MMORPG world to discuss. But anyway - these changes are on TEST and part of a bigger puzzle where some of the parts havnt been made yet so it can be hard to see the overall picture. These missing parts are the priest, summoner and scout balancing changes.</P> <P>Of course - if you feel like "your" game is being ruined, we cannot stop you from feeling that and maybe even stop paying for the game (which is quite stupid considering quitting for changes that havnt been made yet is quite funny). But its not really "your" game - its "our" game and "their" game - though I think "our" have a bigger saying than "they" do.</P> <P>This means that your concerns are as valid as mine - and it also means that just because I like something or you dont like it dosnt mean that I can expect it to be changed to my favor as much as you can expect it to be changed to your favor - its more or less a democricy (or how you spell it) here.</P> <P>Test, test and test... Give your feedback, but stop acting like angry kids just because not every change is extra damage and extra healing power and extra tanking power to your character.</P> <P>Give and take a little to make it a better game - and remember so far its just testing. Things are open for discussion and can be changes - though we all properly realize things are close to how they gonna go live - its just a matter of shifting numbers a bit up or down.</P>

[Mol]

<P>And how exactly are they going to thoroughly test this NEW system? considering the test servers minute population and limited high end players, the OP is bang on, we are in the process of beta testing the game for them becuase they refuse to copy characters from live to test to really give the new content a going over. If the combat system was such a huge balancing issue why has it only just been addressed?, could it possibly be because they rushed an unfinished game through beta and ignored their testers, i think so.</P>

[Dalensbane]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LobaLobaLoba wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Revamping the combat, stat, and buff systems at this point in the game just reveals that you, the game designers, have no coherent plan, nor do you adequately test this changes before they go live.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>In a way you could say that them any company that releases improvements/updates to the game could prove that they are incompetent and have no coherent plan?</DIV>

[Fennir]

<div></div>I guess I'll just never understand the mentality that goes into not only bashing the crap out of the people who brought you the game that you are currently paying to play, but doing it in the very forum they set up for you to provide feedback on said game. Honestly, how pathetic can you possibly get and still live with yourself? I can't stop most of you from being a complete waste of space on this forum, but please, try to take a step back and think about why you're here.  If it's to provide honest and thoughtful feedback, excellent.  Anything less is just insulting to your intelligence, mine, and the devs. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Fennir on <span class=date_text>04-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:28 AM</span>

[Fennir]

Oh and let me know when the fact that I pay for my cable or telephone service monthly gives me any guarantee that it will work exactly the way I want it to at all times.  You can't provide a service to thousands and keep them all happy. No one is telling you not to complain, but if you want these complaints heard or taken seriously, you should try not to cross the 'stupid line,' which apparently some of you have a great deal of trouble with. <div></div>

[B]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fennir wrote:<BR> I guess I'll just never understand the mentality that goes into not only bashing the crap out of the people who brought you the game that you are currently paying to play, but doing it in the very forum they set up for you to provide feedback on said game.<BR><BR>Honestly, how pathetic can you possibly get and still live with yourself?<BR><BR>I can't stop most of you from being a complete waste of space on this forum, but please, try to take a step back and think about why you're here.  If it's to provide honest and thoughtful feedback, excellent.  Anything less is just insulting to your intelligence, mine, and the devs.<BR> <P>Message Edited by Fennir on <SPAN class=date_text>04-15-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:28 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I don't want to spend majority of my already limited play time leveling up a character on the test server so I can provide meaningful feedback.  I'm sure some of you view the game as a charity case but personally I pay my monthly dues to play the game on the live servers, not to play on the test server full time.</P> <P>Hence, my feedback will be based on the test server patch notes, test server player posts, and assumptions.  Hopefully I'm still allowed to voice my opinions.</P> <P>Now, if SoE copies my character over to the test server everytime a major patch goes into the test server, then sure, I'll donate one or two play sessions to test the patch.</P>

[Fennir]

I didn't say anything about the test server. <div></div>