No hail while invis? (an end to buying languages?)

[Quilli]

<DIV>Does this mean we can no longer buy things from other city merchants?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If so, kind of unfair to since so many people have been doing this for so long...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And really it is hard enough to sneak into a city to buy, say a language...  that it should be possible.</DIV>

[Miral]

yea i dont think this update was thought out at all, just a bunch of randomness to say they updated it

[Errie_Tholluxe]

I was wondering the very same thing. After invising several friends so they could get the Stout Language book in Baubleshire to do stuff from Rivervale (we still cant find it in Freeport) does this mean everyone from now on is SOL? <div></div>

[Debillus]

It makes perfect sense to me, that someone who can't see you won't talk to you. As for fairness. Why should scouts and other invis classes have the advantage over non invis classes in the same situation? Besides, exactly how many languages is it, you need, that you can't get from your own city? (I'm ignorant here, so please enlighten me). I know Hallasian (Barbarians tongue) is sold from both Qeynos and Freeport, and that is the only language I've really needed to get a quest, outside the city zones so far. /B <div></div>

[Moonmixbl]

<DIV>Now there's where I dont understand</DIV> <DIV>What's the usage of the invis while buying things in the opposite city?</DIV> <DIV>My guess is that it will make the NPC non-aggro to you so he will deal with you?</DIV> <DIV>Then is it needed to hail the NPC while buying thing?</DIV> <DIV>I think the best thing to do is to..test it out by yourself</DIV> <DIV>Anyone have tried to invis and buy something from an opposite city merchant after the patch?</DIV>

[msheaf]

<DIV>The question is can you still right click and select 'buy from merchant' while invis? If this works then you can still buy but not get quests. I can probably live with this but being unable to sneak in and buy languages/books etc would suck. Pretty much would defeat most reasons of going into the oppoenents city.</DIV>

[Dazzler_Twodir]

<P>Isn't this trick needed in Solsek to get a level 50 quest ??</P> <P> </P>

[Ibis]

uh no?   to what do you refer dazzler? only times I needed invis were while in freeport as I'm from Qeynos. <div></div>

[Fennir]

This always seemed a little funky and you'd be hard pressed to disagree on a logical basis. Let me put it this way:  SOE Is not going to shut people off from content they deserve to have.  They have made this abundantly clear many times.  I didn't have to invis to talk to the NPC in freeport I needed for the SBD quest, so I imagine that any NPC who is required for a quest will be reachable by both sides somehow. If there are specific examples of content lost because of this change, I'm sure the devs will fix it as long as their attention is brought to it. <div></div>

[MiscreantPy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Beetle wrote:<BR>As for fairness. Why should scouts and other invis classes have the advantage over non invis classes in the same situation?<BR>/B<BR> <P></P> <HR> <P> </P> <P>Because the other classes have other advantages. Simple.</P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Fennir]

Sorry MiscreantPyro, there is no argument that can be made for significantly gimping specific class's abilities to experience content simply because they don't have a certain spell. Unless you're an idiot, in which case carry on. <div></div>

[Dazzler_Twodir]

I'm pretty sure it was needed to get the dragon language quest.

[Ibis]

I have dragon language and the resulting reward of the quest series.  I never needed invis. <div></div>

[Turb]

More importantly, it stops rogues doing quests while sneaking.This was one of the few perks we had as we see every update only add more nerfs. It's not like we're even in the popular class list (pallys #1, guardians #2, templars #3, ...)Nothing unreasonable in whispering to an NPC while invis!

[Iseabeil]

<DIV>what bothers me most is the quest books. i tried buy the 'history of...' with my templar in freeport, but the NPC would refuse to sell to me. i really hope ye can still shop invis, even if ye cant hail.</DIV>

[Miral]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Turb0T wrote:<BR>More importantly, it stops rogues doing quests while sneaking.<BR><BR>This was one of the few perks we had as we see every update only add more nerfs. It's not like we're even in the popular class list (pallys #1, guardians #2, templars #3, ...)<BR><BR>Nothing unreasonable in whispering to an NPC while invis!<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>yea same, theres some quests that you either have the strength to fight to the npc, or you have to find some other way. And lets face it, summoners and scouts arent going to be plowing through tons of mobs and live through it. Now thats the only option though, we can no longer go the stealthy route...

[Jooneau]

It doesn't make sense that you can do quests or buy things from NPC's that can't see you.They should make things like Language Primers and the Sage quest books available on "black market" merchants so that everyone from an opposing city can access this content, not just players who can use stealth or invisibility.

[Miral]

well think of it mor elike sticking to teh shadows to hide your true identity. most merchants just want your coin, they dont care who you are.

[Gertack_v2]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Fennir wrote:This always seemed a little funky and you'd be hard pressed to disagree on a logical basis.Let me put it this way:  SOE Is not going to shut people off from content they deserve to have.  They have made this abundantly clear many times.  I didn't have to invis to talk to the NPC in freeport I needed for the SBD quest, so I imagine that any NPC who is required for a quest will be reachable by both sides somehow.If there are specific examples of content lost because of this change, I'm sure the devs will fix it as long as their attention is brought to it.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Vida Sweeps (for the Ghoulbane starter) won't talk to me whether I'm invisible or not.  That's not particularly fair as a Freeportian because I either have to buy the stone, usually for ~20g on Befallen, or make a mule Qeynosian to transfer it.  Neither option is particularly desired.At least let me TRY to finish the quest as a Freeportian.  I know I'll get kicked out constantly but it's more of a challenge factor than "oh, NPC won't talk to you, go away."Gertack46 Fury, 33 JewelerBefallen</span><div></div>

[Fennir]

I pretty much agree with you. I think the devs kept the ghoulbane quest starter the way it was to help promote things like the fence, but it doesn't seem fair to have a heritage quest that starts in netlleville, when there isn't one that starts in say... Longshadow Alley.  In fact, I really don't like how biased the game generally is towards Qeynos, and sort of hope the devs add some sort of real incentive to make characters in freeport.  I have heard of other game developers doing something 'unbalancing' in a an unpopulated place to get people to go there... seems like the smart thing to do for a city that no one wants to play in cuz everyone wants to be 'the good guy.' But I do believe that the developers want everyone to have as much fun as possible and as much access to content as possible... Hey, maybe this is their way of getting you to make a char in Qeynos <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Kegofbud]

<DIV>If they do this it should pave the way for disguises to be useful in my opinion. There's no reason a disguise shouldn't work because you are in a different, friendly form in front of the NPC. EVERYONE has access to disguises with the useless petrified eyes that have no value now. That would eliminate any issues over "people not being able to interact with others who can't be seen" issues. In my opinion disguises are wasted when they could be used for great content ideas. fine, don't let me trade or talk in stealthed mode but at least let me interact when I'm in disguise.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for people flaming about invis not being fair, grow up. Not everything is fair. You've got skills for things I dont' have, that's not fair either but I'm not whining about it. Everyone has their own skills. I've taken time to invis many people so they could speak to agro NPCs. It's part of the intermingling of players and supporting each other. Seems fair enough to me. The content wasn't locked, you just had to have help. Next thing you know they will take all stealths away because a tank is comlaining that it's not fair that everyone else can sneak by mobs and he can't. </DIV>

[Fennir]

I agree that disguises should be more useful.  Honestly, what the hell is the point of my Guise of the Deceiver if I can't DECEIVE ANYONE??? As to your other point, combat and movement mechanics should have nothing to do with the ability to get a quest, sorry. <div></div>

[Miral]

Well if I had my way you could go almost freely into other city if you arent in a guild and havent done any epic content... I mean before that, you are a nobody that cannot really be identified as good or evil (other than race, qeynos would certainly be suspicious of a rataonga walking the streets... but like humans or kerrans...)

[TooFarGo]

I don't see the point of this either...think about it. Roleplay for a sec.  You're a merchant, living in a land of magic and Very Strange Things.  There are wizards and warlocks running amuck left and right. Ok, so you hear a voice come out of thin air....would you respond? Do you really want to miss the sale to that level 45 Wizard (who happens to have  tons of yummy cash), just because you were paranoid and thought maybe you were hearing voices? Oh right, invisibility is a common thing in your world....hmm I think I'll answer the Hail from Thin Air and make that sale.... <div></div>

[Fennir]

I wouldn't jump the gun just yet.  So far we've only seen references to hailing, which is not needed to buy from a merchant. Hopefully someone from Test will let us know if this refers to hailing only, or both hailing and purchasing. <div></div>

[Zolg]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Beetle wrote:<BR>As for fairness. Why should scouts and other invis classes have the advantage over non invis classes in the same situation?<BR>/B<BR> <P></P> <HR> <P>First, scouts don't invis, they blend into their surroundings. Second, Swashbucklers have the ability to sneak you non-invis classes too. </P> <P>Third, why should Mages be-able to root mobs and not other classes? Why should clerics be able to heal others and not other classes? Why should tanks get extra hits points and not other classes? Your arguement is invalid, each class has it's own set of abilities to them and this was one that these classes had.</P> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>

[BlueKnightLPL]

<P>Fennir - there are several quests that qeynosians need that start in freeport, besides the language books.</P> <P>The Fallen Gate (for zombie lore) access quest and the Stein Heritage quest both start in Freeport.</P> <P>It took me a couple of tries to get the fallen gate quest and then complete it.</P> <P>I'm 0 for 1 in getting the stein quest.  Will have to make sure I get it this weekend.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Fennir]

That's good, then.  I assume you don't need to be invis to talk to the NPCs who start those quests? <div></div>

[Quilli]

<P>Maybe someone in the know well give us an answer.</P> <P> </P> <P>As to why be able to buy invis?  Someone else said it best, think of it as kind of beldning in with the crowd, so they sell it to you because they want the money, and since they realy have no idea if you are from freeport, they let it slide.</P> <P> </P> <P>Also someone else said it was not fair, guess what buy an invis tomb, then you can be invis as well and suport the crafts.  So anyone can do it.</P> <P> </P> <P>I won't hold my breath to get a rela answer on this though <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  but it would be nice!</P>

[Kael]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BlueKnightLPL wrote:<BR> <P>Fennir - there are several quests that qeynosians need that start in freeport, besides the language books.</P> <P>The Fallen Gate (for zombie lore) access quest and the Stein Heritage quest both start in Freeport.</P> <P>It took me a couple of tries to get the fallen gate quest and then complete it.</P> <P>I'm 0 for 1 in getting the stein quest.  Will have to make sure I get it this weekend.</P> <P><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>you don't need invis for stein at all.  he'll talk to visible good guys.  and invis isn't any help, since guards can see thru it.</P> <P>what i'd hate to see is not being able to buy books while invis.  my prov is qeynos-based, and one of my favorite quests so far is 'An Old Cookbook' that i bought in freeport using her scout sneak skill to get the merchant to sell that no-trade book to me.  yes the final quest reward book is tradeable, so i could have gotten it by buying it already done, but i like that i got to do it myself, on her, that she earned it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  i sure hope this does mean just hailing and not buying.<BR></P>

[badcan]

Perhaps a better solution would be to make language books available in both cities, but pay a larger fee for the "other city" languages? Allow us to buy the books from both sides but pay an extra amount! It will end up being just another way to remove money from the economy. Since we can't TEACH eachother languages like we could back in eq1 (where you COULD learn any of them... how many of us learned new ones while sitting on the boat? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) and plenty of us would like to know all of them, (let alone that there are some quests you need languages for, and not just halasian.)

[DonSavan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>I would like to see guise of the deciever and other apt illusions let us walk around in the opposite citys</BLOCKQUOTE><p>Message Edited by DonSavantx on <span class=date_text>04-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:50 PM</span>

[Daeanor]

<span><blockquote><hr>Miral wrote:well think of it mor elike sticking to teh shadows to hide your true identity. most merchants just want your coin, they dont care who you are. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Not entirely true, when the see you, they often say stuff like, "I won't sell to your kind." That aside, the easy answer is make the language merchants non-aggro so it doesn't matter. Then you still have the realism of them not dealing with invis characters (which really does make sense) without locking opposing languages out from people.</span><div></div>

[MystaSkrat]

What i want to know it, how the heck does a merchant know what city you are from?  And do we really want to try to make things "more realistic"?  Might as well take out the casters, cuz that stuff isn't real!  Give me a cleric over a doctor anyday, that ain't gonna happen, but it's in this game.....Don't see how "realism" argues into this point :smileyhappy:

[thepriz]

My problem is that the desguise illusions you get when you do the bone quests are really just fluff. If you where actually able to use them to sneek into the other city and then buy the language books that would be great. Do the merchants see through illusions? Why make the bone quests so hard when the end result is kind of useless? Rogues should get the ability to desguise themselves also but that is for another thread. <div></div>

[Lady Uaelr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TooFarGone wrote:<BR>I don't see the point of this either...think about it. Roleplay for a sec.  You're a merchant, living in a land of magic and Very Strange Things.  There are wizards and warlocks running amuck left and right. Ok, so you hear a voice come out of thin air....would you respond? Do you really want to miss the sale to that level 45 Wizard (who happens to have  tons of yummy cash), just because you were paranoid and thought maybe you were hearing voices? Oh right, invisibility is a common thing in your world....hmm I think I'll answer the Hail from Thin Air and make that sale....<BR><BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I have to say you are right.  It is called magic..LOL</P> <P>What sense does it make to sneak into somewhere invis and then appear to buy something when you are in a dangerous place?</P> <P>This change makes no sense.....we just have to see what happens. Maybe they will just eliminate invis all together.</P> <P>=).</P> <P><BR> </P>

[MiscreantPy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fennir wrote:<BR>Sorry MiscreantPyro, there is no argument that can be made for significantly gimping specific class's abilities to experience content simply because they don't have a certain spell.<BR><BR>Unless you're an idiot, in which case carry on.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you want to talk about content experience, talk to SOE who makes it so scouts can't effectively participate in several raid encounters because we don't even have a "crush" skill. Otherwise stuff it in your ear.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Damari]

<P>Its my understanding that they gave mages invis and scouts sneak because they are the weaker classes and can't fight their way to key quest npc's.</P> <P>I'd say that I use sneak at least 30-40% of the time to reach difficult NPC's that I'd otherwise have zero chance of reaching if I was to fight my way there.  Remove the ability of the weaker classes to advance quests while invis/sneaking and all you'll achieve is people deleting quests from the journel.</P> <P>example.  I sneak past 20+ agro guards (like zek mine) but can no longer hail npc while hidden.  So I become vis, hail, and before I've selected the next spiel option, those guards are pounding my hide.  Result, dead, and quest deleted in frustration.  </P> <P>Removing the ability to hail while invis/sneak will devalue the fun of questing for weaker classes.  This is not just a 'buying languages' issue.</P> <P> </P> <P>Damari</P>

[Silvo]

A rogue dealing with an unfriendly merchant? We do it from the shadows and in a manner so nobody will notice and tarnish the merchants reputation...I really think a blanket no talking to NPC's while invis is overkill. At least leave the ability enabled with merchants so people can buy languages and us scout types can have some use for our sneaking.

[Anarra]

You need giant language in SE for the quest starter you are referring to.  That is from giants, not purchased, so this wont affect that. <div></div>

[Diapause]

<P>I think that making the Guise of the Deceiver work to change you to an evil character if you are good and vice-versa would be an answer this problem. The item doesn't work as intended currently and doing so makes it so that u have to go thru a long quest to gain the ability to walk with impunity in the opposite city. But it has to affect faction so that you can purchase items from NPCs as well.</P> <P>Now I know the quest is a PITA with Billy and the SwineLord spawns, but that's besides the point. Having an in-game item that allows you to obtain quests and items within the opposing city is really fun. </P> <P>Even without it, you can obtain items without invis. I've been to FP many times as a Qeynosian and used many tricks to get what I wanted. Either paying a evil PC to talk to an NPC gaurd to distract him and keep him from patrolling around.. to going with another guildee to train the gaurd out of building so I can run in and get a book, to just plain sneaking and hugging the wall to get where I wanted to go. I will admit that on all occasions, going to FP was a pretty enjoyable game experience, frustating sometimes getting kicked out, but still enjoyable.</P> <P>Diapause</P> <P>Lvl46 Templar - Lavastorm</P>

[chanaho]

Ok let me get this staight. 1) Its OK to walk by any agro npc without being seen but to talk and get quests or buy things isn't normal. 2) I remember at lvl 22 going into stormhold, visiting the librarian, and receiving his quests. I could not have done this without being wiped up had I had to pop out of stealth in there. Remember all non stealthies, once were aggro'd we cannot go back into stealth/invis. So I guess talking to a skelton in stealth is not normal but talking to a skelton out of stealth is?    Last I checked this is a fantasy game where alot of "unnatural" things occur (ill spare the list).  Bottom line for me is, this was one nice thing we had as a scout/wizzy and it will be gone because its not  "normal". <div></div>

[Drai]

<P>Maybe this is just my own mind working its evil mischief, but it seems there's a really simple solution to disguises that (once again, in my mind) would make the vast majority pretty satisfied. I really wish they'd test this.</P> <P>Two words - Disguise levels</P> <P>Like so- (now forgive me if I'm missing stuff, but it's just a general idea)</P> <P>First off- merchants will always sell to you, no matter which city you're from. However, if you're from an enemy city (and have the appearance of an enemy race that cannot live in the opposite city without betrayal), they'd charge you a little more in exchange for not telling the guards you're around. <BR>Now really, species should come into a little bit more play than it does. Our home cities are gone, we're lumped together in big communes that show NOTHING of our species original customs/culture, we just get our racial sight, if applicable. Species like Kerra, Barbarians, Erudites.. they should be able to interact with NPCs of either city relatively normally. Class (revealed by your clothing) could make merchants suspicious. Guards.. well they just know. We need challenge somewhere.</P> <P>1: Totems / animal forms - These would allow you to walk around the enemy city completely undetected, depending on the form. (Wolves are common in Qeynos, lions/furies might have a little more trouble blending in...) ..as a sacrifice, no hailing or buying from merchants. It's simply a disguise to keep you safe from harm and undetected. Obviously, gnoll and orc forms wouldn't be looked favorably upon in the cities.. it would have to be tweaked for all the transformations.<BR>2: Petrified Eyes - NPCs (if you match a species that could live in that city without having to betray) will greet you normally and speak to you. Merchants would be more friendly.<BR>3: Class-obtained disguises - Being of a scout's natural talent to blend in, these would also allow you to fool guards of a lower level than yourself. <BR>4: Sneaking - Able to hide from any guard as you would monsters at your level, with the exception of higher (more experienced) officials such as Captains, or lookouts.</P> <P> </P> <P>on second thought, this is probably the wrong forum for this. XD But for buying books we'd need this seems like a solution to both that AND making people happy about how disguises and transformations affect your interactions with NPCs in the cities.</P>

[Cheshyrcatgri]

<span><blockquote><hr>Fennir wrote:  In fact, I really don't like how biased the game generally is towards Qeynos, and sort of hope the devs add some sort of real incentive to make characters in freeport.  I have heard of other game developers doing something 'unbalancing' in a an unpopulated place to get people to go there... seems like the smart thing to do for a city that no one wants to play in cuz everyone wants to be 'the good guy.' But I do believe that the developers want everyone to have as much fun as possible and as much access to content as possible... Hey, maybe this is their way of getting you to make a char in Qeynos <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div><hr></blockquote> NOOooooooo! i like that i can run freely in Freeport and it's suburbs! very little lag, especially in the tradeskill instances! Qeynos makes me want to slit my wrists going from one place to another. everyone can want to be the good guy all they want...keep Freeport lag free! =)</span><div></div>

[VettsVey]

<DIV>Freeport?!  There is no Freeport!   You must be mistaken.  There is only Qenyos... go there.  Freeport was destroyed long ago.   Freeport does not exist!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>:smileyhappy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[aeio]

I was bummed when they added this.. But I suspect they have their reasons it does trivialize some of the content, especially since very few if any mobs can see through invis any longer. <div></div>