This sums the issue up perfectly

[Dayely]

<div><i>See, prices are high on food for a very good reason.  A major portion of the existing provisioners cannot be bothered making anything to sell, since Sony has elected to make this craftskill a major timesink.</i></div> <div><i> </i></div> <div><i>Major timesink, you say?  Bah, rubbish.</i></div> <div><i> </i></div> <div><i>Fine.  Consider this though:</i></div> <div><i> </i></div> <ul> <li><i>It takes over 2 hours of effort to create a single stack of high end food or drink.</i></li><li><i>This does not include gathering time for raws, it presumes purchase off of other players.</i></li><li><i>Other players generally don't sell raws cheaply.  Popular raws are known to frequently be very expensive.</i></li><li><i>A casual player generally only has around 2 hours of play time any given night.  Or, they can make <strong><em>one stack of goods</em></strong>.</i></li> </ul> This sums the entire issue up perfectly.    I'm not about to run around looking for food / drink raws for hours and hours on end to provide the server with food / drink cheaply.   Time = money folks.  You expect provisioners to spend most of their gaming time in front of the stove to provide YOU with food / drink so YOU can go out and level your character up?  Fine,  it will come at a cost I promise you. That's * IF * I'm in the mood to provide the service for you to begin with. Every hour I spend in front of the Keg / Stove is an  hour I COULD be levelling my own character.  These days,  I make enough for myself and / or the group I am with and that is about all.  Making food in EQ2 is about as exciting as watching grass grow.  SoE managed to kill off any profit ( read that Workshop tasks / guild writs ) from it.  Once you hit lvl 50,  doing it for XP purposes is right out.  So what's the point?  For all of you that complain about food / drink prices,  go stand in the Oven based time sink for a few months, grind up to 50 and let me know your thoughts on it then. -Dayelyte 40 Fury 50 Provisioner <div></div>

[Merkad]

While I agree crafting is far too tedious, I feel no empathy with you. I must admit, it is because on my server (Najena) it almost always costs a gold + for a single decent drink. But oh well, I guees, I don't have to buy it, and I don't. Level 30-40 stuff that lasts 3 hours or so is fine with me, and costs way less. I guess what I am saying is that while I do believe that is part of the problem, I think greed is far more part of the problem. But that is the way it has always been. I wish NPC merchants had food/drink nearly equal to crafted food/drink, to put provisioners in the same position as alchemists with poisons... but I don't like tradeskills at all, so maybe I am simply not being kind in my assessment/desires. Merkades, 50th Ranger. <div></div>

[Syanis]

<P>While the concept of cheap raws for cheap drink/food makes sense it simply doesn't play out. The few provisioners who hit T5 make 50 pretty quick compared to other crafters. The arguement I hear from these provisioners is that they are 50 so why should they make food/drink for the market if not considerable gain for them? Thus we get 1 hour T5 drinks at 1gp a pop. Know what? Theres alot of T5 drink raws that make it on the broker at 2-5sp. Who's selling inexpensive drink for their gained inexpensive raws? What has happened in the past certain provisioners would buy out the market of T5 drink and reprice it with a higher price. </P> <P> </P> <P>Now my stance. I have 2 T5 crafters. I also have a high T3 crafter almost T4. I'm very well aware of crafting and its issues. However as 47 adventurer also I simply cannot afford 1gp for 1 hour of T5 drink and 50sp for 1 hour T5 food. I have costs of arrows, poisons, and gear repair from the occasional death. Now for those who'll say it costs alot to make T5 drink or alot of time we have 1 very recent T5 provisioner on my server who just got into the market and sells out extremely fast and he still says he makes a nice profit. He sells 1 hour drinks about 35-40sp. 2 hours about 60sp. Now why don't others do this? They want the most cash they can for the least work. They don't want to be part of a mutual need between provisioner needing profit and adventurer needing food so work a fair deal. They simply want to get rich off the least work.</P> <P> </P> <P>While not all provisioners are bad alot of friends who were high T5 provisioners either quit the game or quit crafting from all the BS overcharging and buying out others drinks to resell at double. I tend to destroy my drink raws I harvest of late or else conserve for the rare active provisioner who is fair then sell cheap (I'd sell T5 drink raws at 5sp or free to those who I know are honest and fair).</P> <P> </P> <P>Flitch Flea 47 Assassin Steamfont</P>

[jash]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Syanis wrote:<BR> <P>While the concept of cheap raws for cheap drink/food makes sense it simply doesn't play out. The few provisioners who hit T5 make 50 pretty quick compared to other crafters. The arguement I hear from these provisioners is that they are 50 so why should they make food/drink for the market if not considerable gain for them? Thus we get 1 hour T5 drinks at 1gp a pop. Know what? Theres alot of T5 drink raws that make it on the broker at 2-5sp. Who's selling inexpensive drink for their gained inexpensive raws? What has happened in the past certain provisioners would buy out the market of T5 drink and reprice it with a higher price. </P> <P> </P> <P>Now my stance. I have 2 T5 crafters. I also have a high T3 crafter almost T4. I'm very well aware of crafting and its issues. However as 47 adventurer also I simply cannot afford 1gp for 1 hour of T5 drink and 50sp for 1 hour T5 food. I have costs of arrows, poisons, and gear repair from the occasional death. Now for those who'll say it costs alot to make T5 drink or alot of time we have 1 very recent T5 provisioner on my server who just got into the market and sells out extremely fast and he still says he makes a nice profit. He sells 1 hour drinks about 35-40sp. 2 hours about 60sp. Now why don't others do this? They want the most cash they can for the least work. They don't want to be part of a mutual need between provisioner needing profit and adventurer needing food so work a fair deal. They simply want to get rich off the least work.</P> <P> </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>hmmm okay first of all ..selling 1 hour drink for 40sp and then chargeing 60sp for two hour drink is kinda off... thats just math ..why should you do 2 rounds of crafting for 60sp when you could get 80sp... </P> <P>but then maybe he/she really likes crafting food...</P> <P>what has to be made clear is that the price for food is determined by time ..not by the price of raws... buying t5 raws is stupid in my eyes .. since its going to make the food even more expensive... i only buy raws if i am in a hurry and craft for myself</P> <P> </P> <P>people are angry at provisoners cause they need the food and they need a lot of it....   people who dont understand that foodcrafting issnt fun and then say we are greedy are just ignorant...   </P> <P>as if provisioners have a monopoly on greediness ..whats with all the people who read in patch notes that you need now a glimmering tooth for manastone recipe had to the broker  buy everything they can get their hands on and sell them now for like 80gp .... other glimmering items cost round about 2-7g</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>and dude... 5sp for a raw is "%&§"ing greedy<BR></P>

[a6eaq]

<HR> Dayelyte wrote: <DIV>Every hour I spend in front of the Keg / Stove is an  hour I COULD be levelling my own character.  <BR><BR>These days,  I make enough for myself and / or the group I am with and that is about all.  Making food in EQ2 is about as exciting as watching grass grow.  SoE managed to kill off any profit ( read that Workshop tasks / guild writs ) from it.  Once you hit lvl 50,  doing it for XP purposes is right out.  So what's the point?  <BR> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is obvious that every hour you spent in front of the keg/stove DID level your character.  After all you are a 50 Provisioner aren't you?  Yeah you are unless your signature is a lie.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Since there is no current level above 50 I guess there would be <STRONG><U>no</U></STRONG> reason to do it anymore for XP now would there?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So why should you continue to tradeskill?  Oh yeah, for yourself and friends and whatever is left over you sell for what was that stuff called... <STRONG><U>MONEY</U></STRONG>!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, what were you posting about in the first place? </DIV> <DIV>Make an alt there big guy and try Alchemy.  What market is there for that you ask.  Well, on Befallen almost NONE!  I spend hours making fighter apps/potions/posions and guess what mister disgruntalled... I am lucky to make 5 gold in a week.  How much were your foods each?  Let me guess for a level 50 food of any time on it  at all... hmm a gold I'll bet.  You spend two hours in front of a stove/keg make a stack of 5 hour pastas and I'll make 50 fighter apps.  At the end of a week I bet you will:</DIV> <DIV>     A.  Have sold out several days before the deadline.</DIV> <DIV>     B.  Made a bigger profit.</DIV> <DIV>     C.  Will not have vendor any of it to make room for your next batch.</DIV> <DIV>     D.  Have more gold from the sales of your 20 food items than me with my 20 fighter apps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So please, do the rest of us a favor and quit crying over spilled milk.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by a6eaq on <span class=date_text>04-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:34 PM</span>

[Iseabeil]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Syanis wrote:<BR> <P>While the concept of cheap raws for cheap drink/food makes sense it simply doesn't play out. The few provisioners who hit T5 make 50 pretty quick compared to other crafters. The arguement I hear from these provisioners is that they are 50 so why should they make food/drink for the market if not considerable gain for them? Thus we get 1 hour T5 drinks at 1gp a pop. Know what? Theres alot of T5 drink raws that make it on the broker at 2-5sp. Who's selling inexpensive drink for their gained inexpensive raws? What has happened in the past certain provisioners would buy out the market of T5 drink and reprice it with a higher price. </P> <P> </P> <P>Now my stance. I have 2 T5 crafters. I also have a high T3 crafter almost T4. I'm very well aware of crafting and its issues. However as 47 adventurer also I simply cannot afford 1gp for 1 hour of T5 drink and 50sp for 1 hour T5 food. I have costs of arrows, poisons, and gear repair from the occasional death. Now for those who'll say it costs alot to make T5 drink or alot of time we have 1 very recent T5 provisioner on my server who just got into the market and sells out extremely fast and he still says he makes a nice profit. He sells 1 hour drinks about 35-40sp. 2 hours about 60sp. Now why don't others do this? They want the most cash they can for the least work. They don't want to be part of a mutual need between provisioner needing profit and adventurer needing food so work a fair deal. They simply want to get rich off the least work.</P> <P> </P> <P>While not all provisioners are bad alot of friends who were high T5 provisioners either quit the game or quit crafting from all the BS overcharging and buying out others drinks to resell at double. I tend to destroy my drink raws I harvest of late or else conserve for the rare active provisioner who is fair then sell cheap (I'd sell T5 drink raws at 5sp or free to those who I know are honest and fair).</P> <P> </P> <P>Flitch Flea 47 Assassin Steamfont</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>varies a lot over servers i think. when i got to the lvl that i could make tier5 drinks, i put em up for 40s/h, and i can tell you they moved slooooow. nowdays i only make tier4 drinks for 20s/h, wich moves faster than i can make it. during those circumstances, making tier5 drinks would actually make me lose money, as they would take up space that i can have for selling drinks, thus, if someone wants them, they will have to pay a bit extra for the mess it makes in my inventory, or pay higher price to some other provisioner. might be different on a server with more lvl40+ adventureres, but i think in many cases its simply a matter of conveniance. kinda silly, ill admit, but if there are two mobs ye can kill, one might give loot, the other is assured to drop something.. wich one do ye kill?</DIV><p>Message Edited by Iseabeil on <span class=date_text>04-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:44 AM</span>

[prisoner]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Iseabeil wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Syanis wrote:<BR> <P>While the concept of cheap raws for cheap drink/food makes sense it simply doesn't play out. The few provisioners who hit T5 make 50 pretty quick compared to other crafters. The arguement I hear from these provisioners is that they are 50 so why should they make food/drink for the market if not considerable gain for them? Thus we get 1 hour T5 drinks at 1gp a pop. Know what? Theres alot of T5 drink raws that make it on the broker at 2-5sp. Who's selling inexpensive drink for their gained inexpensive raws? What has happened in the past certain provisioners would buy out the market of T5 drink and reprice it with a higher price. </P> <P> </P> <P>Now my stance. I have 2 T5 crafters. I also have a high T3 crafter almost T4. I'm very well aware of crafting and its issues. However as 47 adventurer also I simply cannot afford 1gp for 1 hour of T5 drink and 50sp for 1 hour T5 food. I have costs of arrows, poisons, and gear repair from the occasional death. Now for those who'll say it costs alot to make T5 drink or alot of time we have 1 very recent T5 provisioner on my server who just got into the market and sells out extremely fast and he still says he makes a nice profit. He sells 1 hour drinks about 35-40sp. 2 hours about 60sp. Now why don't others do this? They want the most cash they can for the least work. They don't want to be part of a mutual need between provisioner needing profit and adventurer needing food so work a fair deal. They simply want to get rich off the least work.</P> <P> </P> <P>While not all provisioners are bad alot of friends who were high T5 provisioners either quit the game or quit crafting from all the BS overcharging and buying out others drinks to resell at double. I tend to destroy my drink raws I harvest of late or else conserve for the rare active provisioner who is fair then sell cheap (I'd sell T5 drink raws at 5sp or free to those who I know are honest and fair).</P> <P> </P> <P>Flitch Flea 47 Assassin Steamfont</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>varies a lot over servers i think. when i got to the lvl that i could make tier5 drinks, i put em up for 40s/h, and i can tell you they moved slooooow. nowdays i only make tier4 drinks for 20s/h, wich moves faster than i can make it. during those circumstances, making tier5 drinks would actually make me lose money, as they would take up space that i can have for selling drinks, thus, if someone wants them, they will have to pay a bit extra for the mess it makes in my inventory, or pay higher price to some other provisioner. might be different on a server with more lvl40+ adventureres, but i think in many cases its simply a matter of conveniance. kinda silly, ill admit, but if there are two mobs ye can kill, one might give loot, the other is assured to drop something.. wich one do ye kill?</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Iseabeil on <SPAN class=date_text>04-10-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:44 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I wish you were on my server then <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I'm having to stick with the lvl 30 3 hour drink that usually sells for 30sp or so and I buy 1 or 2 at a time.  Inconvenient I know,  but the damage is done.  A combination of all,  expensive raws,  timesinks,  greed.  I just can't afford the higher level stuff,  and until at least 1 of those above elements is done away with,  prices are going to remain high.  I have noticed however that with the offline selling,  prices have started to come down a little bit.  Yay pricing wars!  I've never seen so many fayberry margaritas on the broker before! :smileyvery-happy: <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>17</DIV>

[BlackHa]

<DIV>I love the debate going on here. The beauty of it all is that the provisioner wields the power .  The consumers can take it or leave it....as it should be. As for myself, I will never complain to my wife about dinner because I know the response..."Make it yourself!"  I find it humurous that people expect other players to treat them like their mother. "Did you get enough to eat dear?"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I guess the dissentors really don't get the point of the OP. He is simply a product of the system. You don't like whats happening? Then try addressing the developers...not the provisioners. Better yet, read a few posts in the provisioner forums to really find out why the food system needs addressed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Merkad]

While I do concur that is is rediculous to expect everyone to treat players fairly, it would be nice non the less. Also blanket statements are not really good to use, my post was the second and I clearly stated that I am not forced to pay these prices, and indeed I don't, I use Fayberry Margeritas, as does another poster 2-3 up from this post. Even SOE acknowledged that provisioner costs were far too high, much higher than intended, and this was originally (so they deemed) because NPC merchants would buy them at an excessively high price, thus it would be lost money to sell it to players for less + time it takes to sell costs. Having had that changed, I still see no change in prices. Once I found good priced drinks, some 2-3 hour level 50 high for a platry 30 silver a piece, versus 50min to 1 hour 1 gold + normal prices. My complaint is simple, I don't like false excuses, I acknowledged that the tediousness was a factor in it, which is more than enough for me not to bother with tradeskills at all, but greed is far and away the biggest aspect of why prices are so high. And this is not exclusive to provisioners, though the fact that they are consumables certainly will not help provisioners in the general publics eyes, or that they are quite useful to have. Merkades, 50th Ranger. <div></div>

[Falc618]

<DIV>I really dont see much of a problem here.  I mean if it takes that long to make food, I dont think you're going to expect a provisioner to sell it for no profit.  Also, if people who gather charge a high price for raws (and I dont know what you consider high, because I dont see it on my server) and that forces provisioners to raise their prices, the people who are doing the work are benefiting.  If you have a problem with the prices, do what I have done since the beginning of the game.  Find high level provisioners who are willing to trade, and most would be.  Theres one person I deal with sometimes who is happy to trade 1 stack of long lasting drink for 4 stacks of raws.  That way I get my finished product, and he gets 3 stacks for himself to sell or use.  Works out nicely.</DIV>

[Kizee]

<DIV>Gotta love people *$%#&!ing about paying a gold for t5 3 hour dink when other crafters charge 20+gold for less than 5 min of work to combine rares.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think the other crafters are being more greedy than provisioners.</DIV>

[Merkad]

You mean combine an item that lasts indefinitely? As opposed to an item that dissapears in a relatively short time, I see drink costing alot more than gear, or skills, if you view the full picture. Personally though, yeah I think most crafters are, and most non crafters to boot, but that is human nature. What irks me is that this game is too crafter centric (imo, I know not everyone agrees), I would rather not need to depend on them, and just buy from npc merchants. Merkades, 50th Ranger. <div></div>

[Kizee]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Merkades wrote:<BR>You mean combine an item that lasts indefinitely? As opposed to an item that dissapears in a relatively short time, I see drink costing alot more than gear, or skills, if you view the full picture. Personally though, yeah I think most crafters are, and most non crafters to boot, but that is human nature. What irks me is that this game is too crafter centric (imo, I know not everyone agrees), I would rather not need to depend on them, and just buy from npc merchants.<BR><BR>Merkades, 50th Ranger.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>So its fair that I spend over 2 hours in front of the stove and 3+ hours harvesting the items needed for a stack of drink/food to sell a stack of T5 4 hour drink for 20g where some other class spends 5 mins combining the rares I HARVESTED and charges me 20 gold for the 5 mins of work? Yes it is consumable but 20g will last you 80ish hours of adventuring. Bargain in my opinion.</DIV>

[Troodon]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Kizee wrote:<div> So its fair that I spend over 2 hours in front of the stove and 3+ hours harvesting the items needed for a stack of drink/food to sell a stack of T5 4 hour drink for 20g where some other class spends 5 mins combining the rares I HARVESTED and charges me 20 gold for the 5 mins of work? Yes it is consumable but 20g will last you 80ish hours of adventuring. Bargain in my opinion.</div><hr></blockquote> No, it isnt fair but </span> Merkades' argument is from the point of view of a customer rather than a crafter. Theres a desrepency between the implimentation and the concept of Provisioning and its really up to SoE to bite the bullet. <span> </span>SoE are trying every avenue they can think up to get prices down to a resonable level without significantly effecting Provisioner incomes, be it making it easier/cheaper to make provisioner items (fuel price decrease, recent harvesting boosts)  to  trying to increase the number of Provisioners by making their products even more desirable (Vendor food/drink nerf, stat bonuses on Food). However they're skirting about the real problem, fundemetally provisioners need recipies that produce multiple items, if it takes a minute or so just to make one drink and the resources for that drink arent cheap, that one drink is always going to be expensive. However as Provisioner recipies are structured currently interrim items are also usable final combines, thus if recipies produced mutlple items you'd get a geometric increase in the number of items? SoE really need to stop skirting about the issue and just redesign provisioner reciepies to allow for mutiple item production <div></div><p>Message Edited by TroodonIE on <span class=date_text>04-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:10 PM</span>

[jash]

<DIV>i think the above poster is right... <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>just implement it that provisioner dont recieve one item but maybe 5 or 10 or something even better:<BR><BR>advanced provisioner books</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the books could conatin like recipes for a feast or something... you have to use less raws to get more drinks... i doubt that any other crafter would mind... prices would go way down</DIV>

[warchild]

<P>Its the same for every crafter Pure Greed !</P> <P>it takes the same number of combines for T1 stuff as it does T5 stuff of the same type idem. Raws are almost the some price now, SO what changed to make the same T1 combine now 1g,  5, 10, 15, 20g ? nothing but greed. sorry just but its the truth. yes it took alot to make it to T5, but thats no reason to be greedy!  the dev's do need to make food and drink come out in x2 for pristine or maybe even x3 </P>

[Merkad]

Last I looked, admittedly not since LU#6, 1 hour drinks were 1 gold per one, for tier 5. If you sell 4 hour tier 5 for one gold (20 for a stack), then you are miles better than the majority (for the sake of arguement, I did not say all) of my server (Najena). However, I still wont be buying it, my choice. Maybe if money becomes less important, but right now, I have 1pp to my name, I am not wasting what little cash I have on something expendable to that degree. I agree it would be nice if they upped the amount returned for a combine, though what I would perfer more is a revamp reducing the tediousness of having a dozen combines for one item. Merkades, 50th Ranger. <div></div>

[fasht]

<span><blockquote><hr>jash23 wrote: <div>the books could conatin like recipes for a feast or something... you have to use <b>less </b>raws to get more drinks... i doubt that any other crafter would mind... prices would go way down </div><hr></blockquote>Frankly, they could make me use *MORE* raws and I would prefer it. It's just the time thats an issue. I don't want to spend between 4 and 7 minutes per drink staring at crafting object while watching TV out the corner of my eye and clicking BEGIN every once in a while I'd be happy with say 30 raws per stack of 20 if the time taken was reduced (say into ONE craft) Hell I'd take 40 raws... 50! Dammit 60!! Final offer for a stack of 20 and reduced crafting time </span><div></div>

[minem]

My provisioner is sitting at 34 because its simply not profitable to spend so much time crafting to get such little profit, adventuring at tier 5 is even better to make money....

[tek2]

<DIV>the same people complaining about drink costing too much are the same people that go harvest and charge 10s for raw materials ironically.</DIV>

[Tige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> tek2k5 wrote:<BR> <DIV>the same people complaining about drink costing too much are the same people that go harvest and charge 10s for raw materials ironically.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You are correct I feel. As an Adventure my self, I feel people greed are on both sides. I see people get Adept I spells and are asking 30+ gold for them where I can get an Adept III spell for that much! It works both ways in the world. If people that gathering didn't charge so much for the raws, then drinks wouldn't be so much.</P> <P>Drinks on our server (Steamfont) are going for about 25 silver for an 1 hr T5 drink. The 1 gold drinks are like the 3 hr ones and believe it or not, the T4 drinks are more money than the T5 drinks. In the pass people be hesitant to buy drinks cause if you just drank a 3 hr drink and all of a sudden you died 10 min later, well you just lost your $$$ for the drink. But now with them not losing now, they are worth the money.</P> <P>I am sorry, those that are Adventures that say they can't afford 1 gold are full of it. If you are one of them, you are doing something wrong big time. My self as a lev 50 Adventure have over 6.5 Plat in the bank and I have no clue how much more I have spent through out the game. How many of you spend the 60 silver in a split second to travel to EL, Zek just to get to Lavasorm and Everfrost?? A simple one kill pretty much gets that 1 gold back.</P> <P>But you know what people tend to do in our guild? Those who want drinks will gather their own raws. The prov. will make them drinks for them for free since they get XP off them. Those making T5 drinks only ask to cover fuel costs and it can get steep if making tons of them. This goes hand in hand as the Prov. is making XP, the person is getting drinks, and money is being saved.</P> <P>As for the time thing, well just split it. One of our members is lev 48 Templar and 48 Prov. He will take a couple of days to venture and gain xp for his character. In the mean time Vitality is building up on his Prov. Since people will gather for him, he has no problem getting XP. If you are a crafter and are crafting with out the Vitality, I feel you are wasting your time. Reason being is that raws aren't coming in at a constant rate compare to a mob if grinding for XP. If you ha a side table of raws, I am sure many of you would grind a lot more. So why not venture out, allow your crafter build up that XP and as you venture you gather too. Get some people to gather for you also in exchange for some drinks. You know you can't use ALL the raws to make drinks, so use what you can for that person and use the other stuff for XP. Seems to be going very well with the people in our guild AND they are making some profit too on the Broker cause they aren't charging an arm and a leg for their items.</P><p>Message Edited by Tigerj on <span class=date_text>04-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:02 PM</span>

[Mol]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TroodonIE wrote:<BR> <SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kizee wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>So its fair that I spend over 2 hours in front of the stove and 3+ hours harvesting the items needed for a stack of drink/food to sell a stack of T5 4 hour drink for 20g where some other class spends 5 mins combining the rares I HARVESTED and charges me 20 gold for the 5 mins of work? Yes it is consumable but 20g will last you 80ish hours of adventuring. Bargain in my opinion.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>No, it isnt fair but </SPAN>Merkades' argument is from the point of view of a customer rather than a crafter. Theres a desrepency between the implimentation and the concept of Provisioning and its really up to SoE to bite the bullet.<BR><SPAN><BR></SPAN>SoE are trying every avenue they can think up to get prices down to a resonable level without significantly effecting Provisioner incomes, be it making it easier/cheaper to make provisioner items (fuel price decrease, recent harvesting boosts)  to  trying to increase the number of Provisioners by making their products even more desirable (Vendor food/drink nerf, stat bonuses on Food).<BR><BR>However they're skirting about the real problem, fundemetally provisioners need recipies that produce multiple items, if it takes a minute or so just to make one drink and the resources for that drink arent cheap, that one drink is always going to be expensive. <STRONG>However as Provisioner recipies are structured currently interrim items are also usable final combines, thus if recipies produced mutlple items you'd get a geometric increase in the number of items?</STRONG><BR><BR>SoE really need to stop skirting about the issue and just redesign provisioner reciepies to allow for mutiple item production <P>Message Edited by TroodonIE on <SPAN class=date_text>04-10-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>09:10 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>This has been mentioned before in many provisioner threads, the best solution was -</P> <P>-I make fayberry juice, requires 1 fayberry, 1 liquid, 1 kindling, i get 5 fayberry juices per combine.</P> <P>-I then make fayberry shake, requires 5 fayberry juices, 1 milk, 1 kindling, i get 5 fayberry shakes per combine.</P> <P>The end product is still 5 of an item with no increase even after using an interim product.</P> <P>Seriously how hard is it to see thats a great solution?</P> <P> </P>

[Gladesto]

    Im sorry provisioners have no right to cry. At least you, can make a gold. Do you know how hard it is as a potion make,r to make any cash at all. Im lucky i can make 2 gold a night. Selling my t4 stuff for five silver each. My potions dont even sell. Hell my spells hardly ever sell. So get over it stop crying provisioners. My guildie can afoard a 10 plat horse. Im sitting here struggling,  to make one gold a night?Man get over it.

[TheC]

<DIV>I personally think provisioner drink is a waste of money, merchant bought drink does it for me and I'm a wiz, I burn through power faster than any other class.  Unless you're duoing or soloing you really shouldn't be burning through you power that fast.</DIV>

[WuphonsReach]

Just to give some hard numbers:Base regen is 4% of your power poolVendor drink gives: 6/12/18/24/30 per tick in addition to base regen. Price for T4 vendor drink is around 8sp/hr (for +24/tick), price for T5 is 31sp/hr (for +30/tick)Crafted drink gives: 15/30/45/60/75 per tick in addition to base regen.So, Tier2 crafted drink is better then T5 vendor drink, and you can use it 30 levels sooner. It's also (usually) a lot cheaper then T4 or T5 vendor drink and lasts a lot longer (so you use less bag space). Plus, it encourages lower-level crafters that there's a viable business so that they level up and provide competition in the higher tiers.For a level 37 player with a 1350 power pool:- No drink = 25 ticks to regen to full (54/tick from base regen), 4% regen- Vendor drink (24/tick) = 17 ticks to regen to full (78/tick), 5.8% regen- Player drink (60/tick) = 13 ticks to regen to full (104/tick), 7.7% regen

[Bewk]

<P>Here is my responce to all the people maoning and groaning Provisioners prices are too high. </P> <P> I sell 3 hour and 20 minute golden monkies for 1 gold 20 silver each.  I sell out of them everynight.  So guess what, be mad all you want I do not need you business anyway.  Sony has done a very good job making it so you don't "have to have" any one item and or class to function in this game.  Heck I make some of the 5 hour power food and since I can make 3 3 hour drinks out  of the same amount of resources I never though it would sell at the price I needed to charge.  Was I wrong 3 gold for a 5 hour food sold out in first night!  So I will keep making them, not so every person on the server can have them, but the people who care about being the absolutely best can and will pay the price.  You should quit being mad at the provisioners and start being mad at the people that are good at this game and can do well playing it.   Provisioners can barely make enough food and drink to keep up with the customers that are happy to pay the high prices for the items we don't need to worry about selling food to the cheep people who don't understand the benefits.  </P> <P> </P> <P>Another point can someone please point out an item that is useful past it equvilant in drinks.  A stack of teir 4 gnoll bites sells for 20 gold and will last for 100 hours of playing.  Name another item you will use for 100 hours that goes for 20 gold? </P>

[Blackdog183]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dayelyte wrote:<BR> <DIV><I>See, prices are high on food for a very good reason.  A major portion of the existing provisioners cannot be bothered making anything to sell, since Sony has elected to make this craftskill a major timesink.</I></DIV> <DIV><I></I> </DIV> <DIV><I>Major timesink, you say?  Bah, rubbish.</I></DIV> <DIV><I></I> </DIV> <DIV><I>Fine.  Consider this though:</I></DIV> <DIV><I></I> </DIV> <UL> <LI><I>It takes over 2 hours of effort to create a single stack of high end food or drink.</I></LI></UL> <P><EM><FONT color=#cc0000>It takes me the same number of combines and time to make 1 stack of ink...which btw sells for 15 gold at t5....oh not to mention costs 5+gold to make(candles are 9+sp a pop)</FONT></EM></P> <UL> <LI><I>This does not include gathering time for raws, it presumes purchase off of other players.</I></LI></UL> <P><EM><FONT color=#cc0000>Everyone has to gather, so no real argument there</FONT></EM></P> <UL> <LI><I>Other players generally don't sell raws cheaply.  Popular raws are known to frequently be very expensive.</I></LI> <LI><I>A casual player generally only has around 2 hours of play time any given night.  Or, they can make <STRONG><EM>one stack of goods</EM></STRONG>.</I></LI></UL> <P><EM><FONT color=#cc0000>This time sink is not just you, it goes for many other crafters as well.</FONT></EM></P><BR><BR>This sums the entire issue up perfectly.    I'm not about to run around looking for food / drink raws for hours and hours on end to provide the server <BR>with food / drink cheaply.   Time = money folks.  You expect provisioners to spend most of their gaming time in front of the stove to provide YOU with food / drink so YOU can go out and level your character up?  Fine,  it will come at a cost I promise you.<BR><BR>That's * IF * I'm in the mood to provide the service for you to begin with.<BR><BR>Every hour I spend in front of the Keg / Stove is an  hour I COULD be levelling my own character.  <BR><BR>These days,  I make enough for myself and / or the group I am with and that is about all.  Making food in EQ2 is about as exciting as watching grass grow.  SoE managed to kill off any profit ( read that Workshop tasks / guild writs ) from it.  Once you hit lvl 50,  doing it for XP purposes is right out.  So what's the point?  <BR><BR>For all of you that complain about food / drink prices,  go stand in the Oven based time sink for a few months, grind up to 50 and let me know your thoughts on it then. <BR><BR>-Dayelyte<BR>40 Fury<BR>50 Provisioner<BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>I complain about food/dink prices when I see them going to 5-10x(if not more) what it actually costs you to make.  Thats when I have an issue, when I see a single t5 drink for over 1gp, I tend to get a little annoyed.  When I see t3 and t4 drink for 50+ that kinda makes me unhappy also.  Wish I could charge 5-10x what it costs me to make my essenses, potion, poisens, extracts...of anything else I make for that matter.  For example. I see oolong tea go for 20-80sp on my server, you know what it costs me to make it with my alt(a provi!)...85cp, thats 20x what it cost to make.  Thats a 2 combine drink, I can refine a stack of tea and make the actual drink in maybe 15 mins.  So Im sorry but I call bull*$%#&!.  I have a few lvl 50 provi friends that have gotten stack after stack of t5 stuff from me for free, just to clear inventory space(as I clear the entire area while gathering alchemy components).  So I see a a threefold problem, one is that you(the provisioners) have been catered to by the devs, when they reduced vendor food/drink and increased stats on your crafted, they removed a reasonable price buffer for you, that being is you were trying to charge asinine prices, people could easily use merchant bought.  This lead to an increased demand from the community, which further brougt to light the problem that your combines are single, and the devs have seemingly ignored many good ideas to change that.  3rd is the fact that you provisioners somehow think that your time is much more valuable than anyone elses.  Guess what, it takes me longer to make 20 end products for my proffesion than it takes you, and i *$%#&! shure dont make even 2x my cost.</FONT><BR></P> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000></FONT></DIV>

[Bewk]

<P>So I have a question.  How long will those Oolong teas last that you take 15 minutes to make?  I am 50 provo and I can't make them that fast so your alt must be super.  So how much do you think thes 40 minutes teas would sell for?  You would have to sell them for 5 silver each to make them worth as much as that 5 hour drink that costs 30 silver you think is asinine.  Just keep making your 40 minute drinks in 15 minutes and be happy.</P> <P>My only question though is why in the world did you Alchemists get to level 50 when obvioulsy your class sucks so much?  I couldn't be you started them when they where making crazy cash selling to vendors and you guys wanted a peice of that cash cow was it?  I mean your spells don't sell, your potions and poisons are worthless. So what fun game factor did you have for grinding to level 50?  It was the cash wasn't it?  And now you are mad because you min maxing got you a 50 tradeskiller that can't sell to the vendor like you dream.  LOL sorry I think that is funny.</P>

[Blackdog183]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bewkar wrote:<BR> <P>So I have a question.  How long will those Oolong teas last that you take 15 minutes to make?  I am 50 provo and I can't make them that fast so your alt must be super.  So how much do you think thes 40 minutes teas would sell for?  You would have to sell them for 5 silver each to make them worth as much as that 5 hour drink that costs 30 silver you think is asinine.  Just keep making your 40 minute drinks in 15 minutes and be happy.</P> <P>My only question though is why in the world did you Alchemists get to level 50 when obvioulsy your class sucks so much?  I couldn't be you started them when they where making crazy cash selling to vendors and you guys wanted a peice of that cash cow was it?  I mean your spells don't sell, your potions and poisons are worthless. So what fun game factor did you have for grinding to level 50?  It was the cash wasn't it?  And now you are mad because you min maxing got you a 50 tradeskiller that can't sell to the vendor like you dream.  LOL sorry I think that is funny.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>No actually, I made an alchemist back in the days of interdendancy for the sole purpose of putting the other alchemist on my server out of buisness.  I saw that other alcheys were charging WAY to much for simple combines(ie chems) and decided that just aint right.  So I ground my alchey, and started selling my chems at what I feel is reasonable(btw I still sell 50+ stacks a week at that exact same price).  Dont beilive me?  Ask any serious crafter on freeport side of Toxxulia server.  Also I am a shadowknight and like the idea of having all my spells app4(at a minimum.)  I never said my class sucks, I dont think it does, I did however say that I cant sell my products at 20x cost like you can.  Ive had the same 24 essenses on the broker for over a week at 1gp each(every single app4 from level 40-42 that I could fit into the box) as well as 24 t5 poisens, I have sold 4 in a week.  See the problem there? <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EDIT:  btw I beilive that refreshing oolong tea is 1hr(dont quote me in not ingame to check it), so that would be 20 hours.  Last time I logged into and made drinks with my provi, I made 3 stacks of drinks, thats 60 hours of gameplay.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Funny thing is, I never even knew that I could make money selling thinks back to the merchant until after they nerfed it lol.  Alchemy has never been a real cash cow for me, I never wanted it to.  I sell t5 chems at 1gp a stack, the only reason I make any money is because I sell a ton of em.  I dont make crap from essense, potions or poisens.  </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Blackdog183 on <SPAN class=date_text>04-13-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:25 PM</SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>P.S.  I hve exactly 17gp to my name atm...how bigs ur bank account.  I have the cheapest horse u can get, and most of my other stuff is A. dropped or B. given to me by guildies/friends etc.  </SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Blackdog183 on <span class=date_text>04-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:29 PM</span>

[Telad]

<P>Food and drink are not really even needed.  You regen HP and power regen fast as it is out of combat, food and drink only help you out of combat as well.  If you group with a bard your power will regen fast aswell not to mention if you get in a group with a clarity caster.  When in a group you can keep going with hardly no downtime without food and drink. I dont know about the other classes but I can solo without any down time to against even cons.  You don't have to buy food and drink its your choice. If you choose to buy it dont complain about the prices.  </P>

[Kael]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TroodonIE wrote:<BR> <SPAN> <P><BR>No, it isnt fair but </SPAN>Merkades' argument is from the point of view of a customer rather than a crafter. Theres a desrepency between the implimentation and the concept of Provisioning and its really up to SoE to bite the bullet.<BR><SPAN><BR></SPAN>SoE are trying every avenue they can think up to get prices down to a resonable level without significantly effecting Provisioner incomes, be it making it easier/cheaper to make provisioner items (fuel price decrease, recent harvesting boosts) </P> <P><FONT color=#6633ff>maybe you didn't mean this the way it came up on crafting channel on my server, but in case anybody reads it that way i want to make it clear.  prov fuels did not decrease on live servers.  when everybody's fuel charges went up, ours went up too, they just went up less.  but it still costs far more in fuel to make level 50 items now than it did before the january patch.  a lot of people didn't understand that, even some crafters that know a lot about crafting, and expected to see an instant drop in drink prices after that patch since fuel costs had supposedly decreased.  they only decreased compared to what was originally on test center, they never did decrease on live.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#6633ff>and harvesting is a huge issue for provs, but the changes done recently help every crafter, not provs specifically.  we have 8 or 9 harvests in each tier but 3 or 4 of those are used in 75% of the recipes, and some of the others can't ever be used without one of those 3 or 4 that can also be used in many other things.  so yeah it's nice that we can get 3 raws from a bush now but IMO the drop rate of certain prov raws ought to be boosted still.</FONT></P> <P><BR>SoE really need to stop skirting about the issue and just redesign provisioner reciepies to allow for mutiple item production </P> <P><FONT color=#6633ff>100% agree</FONT> <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Blackdog183]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaelee wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TroodonIE wrote:<BR> <SPAN> <P><BR>No, it isnt fair but </SPAN>Merkades' argument is from the point of view of a customer rather than a crafter. Theres a desrepency between the implimentation and the concept of Provisioning and its really up to SoE to bite the bullet.<BR><SPAN><BR></SPAN>SoE are trying every avenue they can think up to get prices down to a resonable level without significantly effecting Provisioner incomes, be it making it easier/cheaper to make provisioner items (fuel price decrease, recent harvesting boosts) </P> <P><FONT color=#6633ff>maybe you didn't mean this the way it came up on crafting channel on my server, but in case anybody reads it that way i want to make it clear.  prov fuels did not decrease on live servers.  when everybody's fuel charges went up, ours went up too, they just went up less.  but it still costs far more in fuel to make level 50 items now than it did before the january patch.  a lot of people didn't understand that, even some crafters that know a lot about crafting, and expected to see an instant drop in drink prices after that patch since fuel costs had supposedly decreased.  they only decreased compared to what was originally on test center, they never did decrease on live.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#6633ff>and harvesting is a huge issue for provs, but the changes done recently help every crafter, not provs specifically.  we have 8 or 9 harvests in each tier but 3 or 4 of those are used in 75% of the recipes, and some of the others can't ever be used without one of those 3 or 4 that can also be used in many other things.  so yeah it's nice that we can get 3 raws from a bush now but IMO the drop rate of certain prov raws ought to be boosted still.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>On the fuel prices issue, I would like to point out that provi fuels are helluva lot less than everyone else.  Heres a nice proce chart to show you the differnce...as it takes an alchemist almost the same num ber of combines to a stack of ink as it takes a provi to make a stack of 3hr drink</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>2 stacks of wash=10 combines</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>1 stack of oil=5 combines</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>1 stack of regeneant=20 combines(made from the oil)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>1 stack of dye=20 combines(made from the regeant and wash)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>1 stack of ink=20 combines(made from the dye, and wash)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>So thats a total of 75 combines at 9sp(rounded down) per candle, thats a total of 6.75 gold(this counts me getting a pristine combine every single time)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>Now If I use those inks to make essense, theres another 20 candles and a stack of solution, at 9sp also, so add another 3gp(about).</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>Now thats 9gp to make 1 stack of end products at 95 combines.  I sell t5 essense at 1gp per(which is about the same price I see drinks going at btw)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>Per until sellback to the marchant averages 68sp per.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>Hers my issue, I have had 24 t5 essense up on the broker over a week now, and sold 4.....</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>This is my question, if it costs you less money, less combines to produce one stack of product, how can you justify charging the prices you do.  </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>If it costs you less to make, and less time to make than mine, how are you justifying the price?  I think I know, that is because their is no system in place to keep your prices in check!  Thats right when they nerfed merchant food and drink, they removed the barrier in place, being that if you were trying to chage stupid prices, people didnt  buy it and opted for merchant bought.  It wasnt until after the change that I saw provi prices skyrocket.</FONT></P> <P><BR>SoE really need to stop skirting about the issue and just redesign provisioner reciepies to allow for mutiple item production </P> <P><FONT color=#6633ff>100% agree</FONT> <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Bewk]

<DIV>You are correct Oolong tea at refreshing is 1 hour.  You said you can make a whole stack in 15 minute with your teir 3 provisioner?  BS that is not possible with my teir 5 provisioner.  So it is now obvious to me you have either an issue with the truth or you like to bend the truth to make your arguement a bit more convincing.  Either way any point you where trying to make is about as worthless as your Alchies product you can't sell.  I am on butcherblock please make a provisioner on my server and get to 50 to put me out of business like you did your alchmist buddies.  See you in 3 months! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just a FYI though i am only getting maybe 3-4 times the cost to produce on my products. I sell only long duration items and buy all of my harvest items for no more then 10 silver no less then 5 that I have seen.  so 4 combines that is 10 silver min on wood and 2 resouces at 5- 10 silver so it costs me anywhere from 20 to 40 silver to make a long duration drink that I sell for 1gold 20 silver.  If Sony change to multiple products form a combine that is cool with me I will just make more money and hour but you guys will still be complaining we make too much.  If they put an artificial ceailing on our product you just won't have a choice to buy player made, because no one will make it anymore except for themselves.  Sucks to be you becuse I will always have drinks and food that I need.</DIV>

[SkinnyFats_EQ2]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blackdog183 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dayelyte wrote:<BR> <UL> <LI><I>This does not include gathering time for raws, it presumes purchase off of other players.</I></LI></UL> <P><EM><FONT color=#cc0000>Everyone has to gather, so no real argument there</FONT></EM></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Are you really saying it takes the same amount of time for all tradeskills to gather the raws needed for their products?  What game are you playing?</P> <P><BR> </P>