more scout complaints

[Zemeckis]

<DIV>I inspected a 50 guardian today with the same bow I use and his max damage on it is like 490 and mines barely 400.  I'm a ranger yet a guardian does more max damage with a bow then me.  Just a lot of stupid scout issues that soe probably won't address until theres no more scout classes in the game. <BR><BR>FIX SCOUTS</DIV>

[ibeo]

lol gonna take a wild guess he has more power...which always made sense to me more power more pull on bow more damage /shrug fix scouts lol touch them and i go on killing spree...perfect as is<p>Message Edited by ibeo on <span class=date_text>04-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:29 AM</span>

[Mie]

<DIV>This is the most stupid complain I ever seen</DIV><p>Message Edited by Mielx on <span class=date_text>04-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:42 AM</span>

[Kreat]

<blockquote><hr>Mielx wrote: <DIV>This is the most stupid complain I ever seen</DIV><p>Message Edited by Mielx on <span class=date_text>04-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:42 AM</span><hr></blockquote>I take it you play a guardian <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[BlackHa]

I have played an assassin since launch and tend to call him my "main". Very challenging to play but many of the recent improvements to the solo content has made life easier. I can't complain too much as I enjoy the difficulty factor and do not feel overly envious of the other classes. I do know that soloing with my alts (especially my beserker) is much easier. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If I were to suggest improvement for the class, it would be in three areas:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1)   Slightly decrease the timer lengths on my attacks. Heck..I can run my beserker out of power in no time using my combat arts. With my assassin, the timers are so long, I am literally waiting for them to cycle while I watch the toon getting beat up using his generic melee ability. I rarely get my power bar down to 50% using my arts as fast as I can click (or macro) them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2)   Give me one more medium-damage frontal attack. Perhaps the timers would not need to be decreased if I had one.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3)   Get crafted poisons to the point where they are apprpriate for my level. To explain further I will use an example: </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A level 20 provisioner can make food that an adventurer will use at levels 20-30. Conversely, a level 20 alchemist makes poison that an adventurer will use at levels 10-20. The typical alchemist is not going to craft products for adventurers 10 levels below him. It is not profitable for the level. He will craft products for consumers at or above his level (like inks). You can't really blame the alchemists for not putting poisons on the market. There incentive lies elswhere (as it should be). They are entitled to make income appropriate to their level. The whole tier ranking of craftable poisons needs to be scaled in a manner similar to food/drink.</DIV>

[Rijacki]

<span><blockquote><hr>BlackHair wrote: <div>3)   Get crafted poisons to the point where they are apprpriate for my level. To explain further I will use an example: </div> <div> </div> <div>A level 20 provisioner can make food that an adventurer will use at levels 20-30. Conversely, a level 20 alchemist makes poison that an adventurer will use at levels 10-20. The typical alchemist is not going to craft products for adventurers 10 levels below him. It is not profitable for the level. He will craft products for consumers at or above his level (like inks). You can't really blame the alchemists for not putting poisons on the market. There incentive lies elswhere (as it should be). They are entitled to make income appropriate to their level. The whole tier ranking of craftable poisons needs to be scaled in a manner similar to food/drink.</div><hr></blockquote> This was changed in the last patch.  ALL poison now has a min of the start of the tier (i.e. 150 for T4) and a mastery of the end of the tier (i.e. 200 for T4).  You no longer can use T4 crafted poison iin T3 (or T5 poison in T4).  There was also supposed to be an increase to the effectiveness of crafted poison with an increase in the number of procs per dose, however, those did not make it into Live but have been promised (post by Moorgard yesterday) for a Hot Fix upcoming.  Alchemists are uncertain whether to hold their breath for it or not, if all the alchemists turn blue and keel over, you know they did. Crafted poison vs NPC bought, the ONE advantage crafted had (being able to be used out of tier) has been removed.  NPC poisons -may- have been raised in price (inconsistant data, I saw them priced higher, another saw them priced the same, could be the difference of locations inside Qeynos) but are still at or lower than the cost to make crafted poison and then only if you look at the cost per dose, not the cost per vial. Crafted poison was supposed to have been given a boon of 7 doses with it being implied that NPC would remain at 2 (just as it has for potions).  However, when crafted poisons didn't get the increase in doses along with potions, when it did occur, NPC bought were given the same boost making them 5 doses to the crafted 7, leaving the ratio pretty much the same. BTW, I am a level 50 alchemist, not a poison user but a poison maker.  I want desperately to make high quality poisons that will be desired over the NPC ones.  I want to make potions that are actually useful, usable, and desired.  Both things alluded to in the descriptions of what an alchemist is.</span><div></div>

[Merkad]

Unless things have changed recently, or I simply missed them in the patches, it is not Power, or more correctly Strength, affecting weapon damages, nor is it limited to a bow. What I mean to say is, my weapon base daamges do not change whether I have 95 Str (unbuffed) or 250+ (buffed). My ssoy is stil 14-41, A guardian will show it as 22-60ish iirc (for note, I may be incorrect, I have not checked out my buddies in  a while as he does not dual weild, but if I am incorrect, it is not by much). I remember when I was in my high 30s checking out a zerker with feysteel handaxes and noting his low blue weapons, at 1.2 delay were listing much higher damage than my orange 1.3 delay feysteel krisses. It is all about class damage mods. I also recall alot of people having mentioned that scouts took a basic melee dps negative mod while in beta, in exchange, we gained poisons.. (gee thanks) anyhow, this appears to be a blanket change, as it affects all weapons types, bows included. Regarding Strength, I am pretty sure it only affects skill damages, as inspecting my weapons while buffed shows no increase, but skills can gain several hundred more damage. If I use a DPS boosting skill (like Feral Instincts) I gain a 45% raw melee dps boost, and my weapons reflect that by showing higher min/max values. Merkades, 50th Ranger. For the record, I dislike poisons, as I am a ranger and it seems out of class to me, and even more so because they are too resistant (new changes may make that go away, but I doubt on raid mobs..) and they cost money. I would much rather have straight up melee dps for those way too long fights where I am too close to oom most of the time. <div></div>

[Dimidri]

<DIV>Fighter and Scout balance is coming... sometime this year hopefully.</DIV>

[Myrkl]

At this point my Swashbuckler doesnt even use the poisons because of cost and effect. For their cost they simply are not worth the resists they get.

[Amise]

<P>Poisons are worth it now that they have mastery levels.  I'm having no trouble landing poisons on either raid mobs or XP mobs now.</P> <P>As for the question of bow damage, what difference does it make what the displayed damage on a bow is?  Do guardians have ranged abilities that even come close to matching those of the ranger? No class does that I'm aware of.  In this case doesn't the raw damage aspect matter less than the special abilities you have for the weapon?</P> <P>Having said that, though, the entire concept of scouts being on a <EM>lower</EM> damage table than fighters is so, so wrong.</P><p>Message Edited by Amise on <span class=date_text>04-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:48 PM</span>

[Merkad]

I think it is more the rp aspect of the bow damage that elicitates these messages. Most people view fighters as generic all purpose types, good in most weapons, whereeas, Rangers are usually synonymous with archery. Aside from that, archery is more deadly, I would think, due to the skill in the aiming, rather than the test of the draw, though that helps too. Rangers, even those like me, who favor melee over archery, think all but true archers should be below us on archery. On poisons; I am quite happy with them now on regular group use, I am not much of a raider, just here and there, so I cannot speak for them. I don't find them that expensive, if you mean npc ones, obviously, anything dealing with actual players I find overpriced. Regardless, I do not like paying for dps, I would rather have a concentration proc line (with several skills for different resists) along a more rangerly theme. Merkades, 50th Ranger. <div></div>

[Myrkl]

I think its the expendature for something that is supposedly a class function that I object to most. My DPS is dependant on my spending coin every time I hunt as opposed to upgrading armor and skills which I also have to do anyway.

[BlackHa]

<P>Merkades said:</P> <P>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</P> <P>Unless things have changed recently, or I simply missed them in the patches, it is not Power, or more correctly Strength, affecting weapon damages, nor is it limited to a bow. What I mean to say is, my weapon base daamges do not change whether I have 95 Str (unbuffed) or 250+ (buffed). My ssoy is stil 14-41, A guardian will show it as 22-60ish iirc (for note, I may be incorrect, I have not checked out my buddies in  a while as he does not dual weild, but if I am incorrect, it is not by much). I remember when I was in my high 30s checking out a zerker with feysteel handaxes and noting his low blue weapons, at 1.2 delay were listing much higher damage than my orange 1.3 delay feysteel krisses. It is all about class damage mods.<BR>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</P> <P> </P> <P>Although I see your point of view, I don't entirely agree with it. I believe it is <STRONG>all about</STRONG> power use. When you are using a combat art, you consume power. Combat arts provide considerable more benefit (and damage) than generic melee combat (which consists of using no power (arts) while swinging away at weapon base damage.  Speaking as an assassin, my long timers keep me from using this power. It isn't really a problem when I am grouped as the majority of my attacks are from behind. In a group situation I can repeatedly use combat arts and consume power (and provide great benefit to the group). When soloing, I have far fewer available combat arts (as I am no longer attacking from behind). I have to wait for  3-4 arts  (useable from the front) to run thier cycle. Hence, I cannot tap into all of the power at my disposal. This is a drag when you have built your character with the concept of increasing your power capacity (ie. agility increases). Given the opportunity to tap into this power (like my beserker can), would certainly go a long ways towards improving my soloing ability. This excess power can be tapped into by a couple of different methods. Either add another combat art that does not have poistioning requirements (ie..from behind), or decrease the length of the timers on the combat arts which do not have positioning requirements.</P>

[Merkad]

Hi there Blackhair, being your good twin in EQ2 I well understand the limitations we have, however the original poster never mentioned combat arts, the subsequent post about Power was using it to mean Strength, I only changed to wording to make it apply to EQ2 since EQ2 has both Power and Strength, and they are not the same. Thus my passage is more contextually relevant here. Also one other thing to note, base melee has alot more consequence than you are giving it, it can account for 40-50% of your DPS. Weapon quality and haste go a long ways toward it, and indeed, the two together can easily make it not worth the 1 second cast some CAs. I agree though, it is a pita only having four basic melee non positional/stealth attacks, but I do have a few bow attacks worth using, as long as I stun/snare, a slight annoyance, mostly when I try to kill something like  that bbc guy in SH solo (the 44^^ one, which I lost, barely). If I am not tanking though, I don't find it hard to run oom, but then I rarely have enchanters/mage types in my group, as I use a steady guild group most of the time. Merkades, 50th Ranger. <div></div>

[Mol]

<DIV>Here is my view on what the stats do, stats in general have 2 functions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-If its your classes main stat it increases your power pool</DIV> <DIV>-It has its normal effect </DIV> <DIV>     * Strength = higher attack rating</DIV> <DIV>     * Agility     = Avoidance</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The problem imo is scouts have a very low strength meaning their attack rating is very poor compared to a fighter type, the higher attack rating the more ac is ignored when you hit a target, often meaning where you would have only hit for 50 you now hit for 100 because you ignored a higher amount of the targets ac. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Agility is now only really a valid power source since the nerf and does very little in terms of avoidance for scouts whereas for fighters it still seems to increase avoidance greatly, in example my bruiser friend has  75%+avoidance (my avoidance being 59%)  with roughly the same mitigation as me even though i have 25 or so more agility.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A nice fix to this that may help would be to link attack rating to agility for scouts rather then strength, all of this is from my own experience by changing armour types, i have yet to see my attack rating increase from adding agility, only strength.</DIV>