EQ2 taking steps backwards...

[Dub]

<DIV>  This game is going backwards fast. Now we get hit again with another patch that makes things easier. Easy = boring.  Im to the point Im having trouble loggin on for more than 30 mins at a time anymore.  Ive been trying to stick with it, after all, stuff is still being added, but the stuff they are adding is ruining the game. Some of it is good, but the majority of it has been horrible.  What feeling of acheivement can I get if SoE just starts handing us everything?  I was hoping this would be my new home for years, like EQ but Im finding myself looking for betas to sign up for already.  </DIV>

[erril04]

I agree!!! If these changes are supposed to be for the better of EverQuest 2 then why are people flooding back to eq1 and WoW.  I have a lot of real life friends that said eq2 has fallen far from what it was at the launch.  I have met few people that like having to attune the majority of their items.  And after this no trade rule goes into effect they will probably leave to go back to other games.  The question is, "How long will I be able to stay on eq2 after I have no friends left?" <p>Message Edited by erril04 on <span class=date_text>04-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:11 PM</span>

[SuzyQ100]

<DIV>Well its always fun to wait hours and hours to enter Nek Castle because half the player base doesn't even have access to it.  Yeap no wonder EQ2 players are running back to EQ1 or trying out WoW, because people DONT love to sit on thier hands waiting for hours to do something meaningful in the game.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Because its hard and boring is the reason people are leaving.</DIV>

[Fais]

<P>Hard?  I think the game is too easy.  There is little no no challenge to this game at all anymore.  Upon release, it was very fun.  But everything became very very dumbed down, above and beyond what it already was.  Everything is being trivialized now, nothing means much.</P> <P>Yes, I realize its a "different" game.  But, you had a large player base playing EQ1 for a reason.  It certainly wasnt to have little to no challenge.  </P> <P>This game has no challenge to mob fighting.  You KNOW what is coming and when.  There is little to no need for any type of class skill, when it comes to fighting.  Just simply zerg everything.  </P> <P>The raid limit, although good in intent, fails miserably.  Guilds don't want to have to pick and choose who can and can't participate.  This also applies to 2 group or 3 group max mobs, etc.  Got 14 people on that want to help kill a 2 group max mob?  Well, sorry but 2 of you are SoL!  MMO's with limits on participation on mobs?  Makes little to no sense to me.</P> <P>The nerfing of harvesting and heritage quest requirements does nothing but aggravate all those players that chose to spend the time and energy to make money or get thier skills up.  Honestly, I see little to now reward for any effort, in any aspect of the game.  EPIC/EndGame encounters yeild no worthwhile loot.</P> <P>No PVP in any form, eliminates a whole aspect of gaming and activity.</P> <P>What was once a very engaging game, with lots to look forward too, has become a game that people play when WoW or EQ1 are down for updates.  Hell, every patch the game is becoming more and more like WoW, may as well just go play the game where it is all working now anyways.</P> <P>I am one player, that is on the verge of looking for greener pastures as well.  There just is no fun or challenge to it anymore.  Seriously, whats the point?  /shrug</P> <P> </P>

[Mat]

<P>Totally agreed. The game contents used to be challenging but seems like SOE is making this another WoW. I left WoW because there was no challenge at all and can't stand those spoon fed stuffs. The only "hard" stuff I have seen so far in EQII are the "quest mob campings." (which I am not very happy to define that as "hard" instead of "time sink") and my first run from EF to PF at Lv42 without invis (but that was hella fun and thrilling).</P> <P>Now they are gonna put their hands on making harvestible nodes having a technically, 0% failure rate. Whats gonna be next? WayPointer for ALL quest related mobs and NPCs when having the related journal up? :p </P><p>Message Edited by Matek on <span class=date_text>04-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:57 AM</span>

[Miral]

didn't get any easier, just less tedious. if the tedious nature is what you like about eq2, I suggest you go get a job and make money doing tedious work.

[Davish_Darkwolf]

  <p><font color="#ff0000">This game has no challenge to mob fighting.  You KNOW what is coming and when.  There is little to no need for any type of class skill, when it comes to fighting.  Just simply zerg everything. </font> </p> <p>Is that how you fight?  You  "Zerg"  everything? mmmm  would love to see you raiding everything with only melee class types... or just caster types....   why not?  Since classes to you seem to not matter anything. </p> <p><font color="#ff3300"> No PVP in any form, eliminates a whole aspect of gaming and activity.</font><font color="#ff3300"> </font></p> <p><font color="#ff3300">What was once a very engaging game, with lots to look forward too, has become a game that people play when WoW or EQ1 are down for updates.  Hell, every patch the game is becoming more and more like WoW, may as well just go play the game where it is all working now anyways.</font> </p> <p> </p> <p>Why dont you go and play WOW then?  Instead of trolling in the forums saying that EQ2 has no class-value and no PvP? </p> <p>You would be much happier there.....  oh wait....  dont tell me...  is WOW down atm? </p>

[Scally W]

<P>I'm going to have to agree with the OP on this one...  EQ2 is definately dumbed down.  The concept of adds is nearly non-existent.  Except for an occasional wanderer you have virtually no risk off adds anywhere.  You can pull one group of mob X right from next to another.  There is no virtually no strategy in the game on a day to day basis.  No CC needed, no monk splitting, etc.  This title should have gone straight to Playstation, as that's about the skill level and button mashing required.  I've gone levels at a time dungeon crawling without a death, to me that means the game has too little risk, though atm there is too little reward also.  Blands-ville.  I expect this title to faceplant honestly.  </P> <P>They are spending way too much time fixing crafting, which I do not agree with.  First off this is Ever<STRONG>Quest</STRONG> not Ever<STRONG>Craft</STRONG>, you don't flippin quest in front of a pottery wheel.  You strap on your sword, staff, etc. and hit the road.  The adventuring portion, the <STRONG>heart </STRONG>of the game is broken.  Too easy, too many class flaws, too many broken spells, etc... Yet they are consumed with crafting issues.  Sorry crafters but if you want to be a tailor go to the mall, find a JoAnn Fabrics and get to work.  I don't play a game to simulate real life hobbies.  I play the game to do things I can't do in real life.  If I wanted to build a godforsaken bed, I'd go to Home Depot and buy some lumber.  If I wanted to be a chemist, I'd go to school and play in a real lab.  I can't hunt orcs in real life and that is what I want a break from - I don't want a game so consumed with crafting that it becomes drudgery like RL.</P> <P>EQ2 is the Wal-Mart of games at this point... they are trying to be everything to everyone and have lost sight of what made them hot, original, and popular in the first place.  You virtual latch-hookers should get out to a hobby shop and leave the gaming to adventurers.  I don't like free trade suffering for something that is an <STRONG>add </STRONG>to the game.  The core is adventuring SOE, don't forget that.  Open an ebay store for crafting supplies if you feel the need to supply the masses with crochet needles, but keep it out of my way in game.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Scally Wag on <span class=date_text>04-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:22 AM</span>

[Davish_Darkwolf]

<font color="#6633ff">"They are spending way too much time fixing crafting, which I do not agree with.  First off this is Ever</font><font color="#6633ff"><strong>Quest</strong></font><font color="#6633ff"> not Ever</font><font color="#6633ff"><strong>Craft</strong></font><font color="#6633ff">, you don't flippin quest in front of a pottery wheel.  You strap on your sword, staff, etc. and hit the road.  The adventuring portion, the </font><font color="#6633ff"><strong>heart </strong></font><font color="#6633ff">of the game is broken.  Too easy, too many class flaws, too many broken spells, etc... Yet they are consumed with crafting issues.  Sorry crafters but if you want to be a tailor go to the flipin mall, find a JoAnn Fabrics and get to work.  I don't play a game to simulate real life hobbies.  I play the game to thing I can't do in real life.  If I wanted to build a godforsaken bed, I'd flippin go to Home Depot and buy some lumber.  If I wanted to be a chemist, I'd go to school and play in a real lab.  I can't hunt orcs in real life and that is what I want a break from I don't want a game so consumed with crafting that it becomes drudgery like RL."</font> So well said,  5*  for that one

[Dub]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Scally Wag wrote:<BR> <P> </P> <P>EQ2 is the Wal-Mart of games at this point... they are trying to be everything to everyone and have lost sight of what made them hot, original, and popular in the first place.  <SPAN class=time_text></SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Scally Wag on <SPAN class=date_text>04-04-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:22 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Perfect!</DIV>

[Gaa]

I also agree with the OP.  There is very little challenge in this game.  Virtually anything is attainable given enough time.  To me, (and many others) fun = challenging, and EQ2 certainly isn't challenging. Regarding harvesting skill-up rates, the only people I've ever heard complaining about this, are those who neglected harvesting for many many levels, and all of a sudden decide they want to be able to harvest T4-T5 zones for rares.  They harvest for a full day or so, and when they still aren't maxed they come here and complain with all these posts saying how hard it is to skill-up in harvesting.  I guess the vocal minority wins again here.  Please, give me a break guys.  Skill-ups are just find for harvesting as they currently are.  I consider myself a very light harvester, yet I am easily maxed out as far as skill goes.  Of course it's going to *seem* tougher to get 100+ skill-ups in one playing session because you neglected it for many levels, but in reality it's fine just the way it is. In my opinion Heratige and Epic quests SHOULD be difficult and time consuming.  I hear a lot of people complaining about the Terrorfiend update for the Screaming Mace for instance.  Think about it guys, do you want every Joe-Schmo on your server to start and finish the Screaming Mace in one playing session?  It would mean nothing if everyone had it.  There is no prestige in having something that everyone else has.  There is some satisfaction involved when completing something time consuming and or diffucult.  This game NEEDS timesinks, players devour content fast enough as it is.  I believe more people would quit after having done everything, than would quit from frustration because something is too time consuming. If you are of the opinion that EQ2 should be easy, to cater to the casual player, fine I respect that.  I just hope Sony leaves *something* for the non-casual playerbase.  I just don't understand why Heratige quests are being made easier as well as doubling of the skill-up rates in harvesting.  All rare prices have come down lately on my server, (except Ebon) and with all the rare equivalants out there, rares really aren't that rare anymore.  Over time, prices will drop further and more and more people will be able to complete Heratiges which require rares.  If the test server changes go into effect, the effected quests will become quite simple. Just my 2cp. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> -- Gaash <div></div>

[WapcapletT]

I'll have to agree with most of what's going on here. It's not just our fault for getting to the end so fast, and it's not just the games fault for not thinking far enough ahead to pad the endgame with enough content to keep the powergamers going until the next expansion. Lets go over a few things here <b>Stuff to do at 50 </b>Quest: Well, this one isn't a very good example. Remember that all quest items are going to be no trade--which means less people doing quests at 50 because they can't sell the item, most likely can't USE the item, and lastly, they get absolutely no experience for doing it.  Yeah, lets go questing... Harvest : In all reality, this idea is flawed, and imbalances the game more towards crafters. Also remember that most of the people you suggest do this are adventurers, not crafters. They have no need for these things that you pick up off the ground, and they're worth nothing. Spending hours and hours to try for a "rare" is ludicrous. It's boring, most people would rather have rusty nails shoved into their eyes. Sure, you might say " well, they can harvest these things and use them to level their own crafter!" Wrong answer Skeezix... for one thing, if they wanted to craft... I mean REALLY dedicate themselves to it, they wouldn't be in this situation in the first place....they'd be crafters. Raid : Sure, raiding is a blast.....the first 15 times you do the epic zones, and come out with 3 master chests, 2 of the same item and a robe that has 20 agi 15 str on it...nice. Static raid mobs? After you kill something like that, you got a feeling like " Wow, we did it! And we did it before those guys!" After killing that mob somewhere around the 3rd time, the only feeling you get is " Wow, a force of 24 people just got one item that can drop off anything in the zone. And don't feed me that crap about having a better chance at that item than a group does, it's a lie. Lets say you're in Permafrost just chillin out for a while, and a master drops. The next day a raid comes in and kills Vox and gets the same item. That's wrong. Plus, that group could stay in there killing solid for 8+ hours a day for a week and a half while you're sitting on your hands waiting for her to spawn again. Oh, and did I mention when we killed her the first time she dropped some light armor forearms, and again the second time, and the third time she didn't even drop that...she dropped a brown chest with a root and a level 46 adept 1. What reason do we have to kill her? Basically it's come down to kill or let it be killed. The monetary reward isn't worth it, and it's a terrible feeling you get. It feels like a job. And whatever happened to Rognog? They pretty much stole our variety. Zek is the biggest WASTE of time I've ever seen in my many years of gaming. How can these "developers" possibly justify getting one item from the behemoth, while at the same time causing 50+ gold in repairs for every person that was there. Antonica? There's no skill involved. Commonlands? All the guilds who do this could do it with their eyes closed. Feerrott is the only one that ALMOST requires a little bit of tactic. They try and play it off like this game isn't linear, but it is. There's no dynamic content. You figure it out once, it works every time. If I wanted predictable, I'd throw a rubber ball into the air and ask myself if it would bounce. You can only drone through the same thing for so long before you burn out, whether you're a casual or a power. The only difference is that powers hit that wall a bit faster, and when they come here to tell everyone about it, they get flamed because they "rushed" through it. [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] rolls downhill folks, and don't say we didn't warn you. Adding some sort of gain at level 50 would solve a lot of problems. First off, it would keep them busy. Going out and exping would take your mind off raiding ( which is basically the only true gain we have at this point) so you wouldn't get burned out on that. Also, killing = money, so you wouldn't hear as many people complaining that they're poor. Does anyone remember Mythica? The MMO that MGS was putting out a while back? The developers would actually come onto the boards I was on and ask us if this or that was a good idea. That's what these people here need to learn. They say this game is for us, but still, they twist it where THEY see fit. They might change something that someone wanted sometimes, but ick...this is more of the same. <div></div>

[zeeke]

<DIV>I couldnt agree more and there are numerous threads on this same topic. The game is silly easy as it is and every single patch they make the game easier. What the heck is sony thinking, or for that make who is the guy making this silly choices?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They took a game that had so much potential and now it seems they have some guy telling them DO WHATEVER IT TAKES TO KEEP CASUAL PLAYERS!! So how Sony spends all their waking hours making the game easier for people that only bother to play 1-2 hours a few times a week. It doesnt take rocket science to figure out that in making those people happy you will in turn upset the people that do actually play the game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The game has become so easy, and so little challenge, that its just plain boring. No death penalty, no risk vs reward at all, just plain easy and boring.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now they are making quest that were NOT hard in the first place easy, just silly easy, so people dont cry. I want to know when I get my opal, high quality pelt and fir back? Is there a mob that will refund my rare's that were not hard to get in the first place?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Harvesting 2x easier? HOLY COW people it was dumb easy in the first place. I kept every skill maxed just by harvesting as I ran thru zones, I never sat around and grinded harvesting for many mindless hours, holy cow I got learns on at least 1 in 3 and most of the time more often than that. Why dont you just give me a button I can elect to click that automatically gives me 250 in all harvesting skills. Thanks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Loot? HAHAHAHAHAHAAH. What a joke. Raiding is not where you get loot. Wow 24 people got together and killed those big bad raid mobs, WOW they got a wood chest with an single item that NONE of the 24 people even wanted for selling. Case in point, we killed the entire arch lich instance this weekend, and wow that was honestly a bit challenging the first time, and guess what we got? A ruby and a silly dual weapon that was vendor junk. All that work and you get junk.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We did all the predeception quest, and deception, where were the chest drops? All wood chest with junk inside, wow black ebon chain bracers!!! woot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So now we have a game that has become increasingly easier week by week, and the raiding items have become worse. Why are raid mobs sharing loot tables with common 2x mobs? Case in point, I got a master chest from a normal 2up mob in sol eye, it droped a really nice pair of medium legs, 5 people in that group. Then last week we got a master chest on a raid with 23 people, woot nice!, it droped a pair of medium legs that were soooo bad no one in the raid took them and we finally /radom 1000 to see who got to sell them. What gives?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I could go on and on, but the game is too easy. Level 40 you can get 10% exp per hour easily, and at level 49 you can get 10% exp per hour easily!! There is not scaling in the game at all, its all linear with no progression. And the lack of a death penalty makes leveling all that much easier.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is not the game it started out to be, and I dont know if its going in the direction that Sony wants it to go, but if this keeps up I will not be playing even though I once loved this game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Namil]

<P>I have to agree as well. Effort in should equal the amount you gain. But the equation is more like Effort in = Gain X100. </P>

[Davish_Darkwolf]

<div></div><a target="_blank" href="../view_profile?user.id=54540"><span>WapcapletTGS</span></a>> Does anyone remember Mythica? The MMO that MGS was putting out a while back? <Oh......... Mythica..........That was the number 1 on my list to try out........ had so many good ideas and MS blew it down the drain  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Hope all that work wasnt wasted and someone brings that project to life one day.

[LadyEternity]

<div></div> I disagree. EQ2 was never suppose to be EQ1 rehashed. It was not suppose to be a 'niche' MMORPG that catored to the guilds and heavy groupers. It was suppose to be a casual game that could be played and enjoyed by casual/solo/small groupers. Yes there was supposed to be content for groups and guilds, but not 99% of the [Removed for Content] game. SOE already HAS a game like that. It's called Everquest. This is not Everquest. This is Everquest 2. I wonder what percentage of Beta Testers for EQ2 were garnered from EQ1? EQ2, before SOE started changing things back, was nothing but EQ1.2. And was well underway to becoming a replacment for EQ1, the original game. Heh I -really- don't think that is what SOE wanted. I believe they wanted to draw in NEW customers <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Most of the 'new' customers left when they saw the timesinks, heavy group forced play, and player freedom killing game mechanics. Why? -gasp- Because they weren't having fun <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> If you build it...they will come.... EQ2 has some real nice features, like housing and a robust crafting system. Many MMORPG's don't have this. People will play what is more fun and rewarding. Only the hardcore players seem to equate drudery = challenge and will give a reward, which in turn will create a sense of accomplishment. Heh I don't feel rewarded or accomplishment after I do the dishes <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I view alot of the drudgery in EQ2 like 'chores' and 'work'. And I don't get any self achievment out of doing it <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> But ya know..I like building creatures in Max and animating them. And I feel a sense of accomplishment when I finish a creature..get it in-game and watch is walk around..attack my test character and so on. And I feel more of a sense of accomplishment when I put them up for free download to other modders on my website. Because I am sharing my accomplishment with others. That's not to say your idea of "achievment" is bad, it's just ALOT different then mine. When I was younger I looked at it like you do..mainly because I was condintioned to feel that way from player EQ1. But I somehow outgrew it...maybe it was more exposure to games that didn't create achievment via timesinks, drudgery and negative punishment (like when occurs in some games when you die). But anyhow, I think what they are doing with EQ2 is great. And I hope they continue. I look forward to the day when a casual player, solo player, small group player can all stand up tall and proud with a sense of accomplishment when they look at their character...free of the feelings of not 'being good enough' or 'substandard' or a 'hangers on'. When that day comes, it will be a good day indeed. Ellsa (Templar) -Test<p>Message Edited by LadyEternity on <span class=date_text>04-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:07 AM</span>

[Scally W]

<P>To those disagreeing:</P> <P>  Ok so EQ2 is not EQ1... some of you claim only thing in common is the lore.  If that really was to be the case why not invent new lore and call the game something else?  The '2' implies a version, which in all the history of the world usually means "more of the same but better".  SOE has done alot to appease the casual gamer in EQ2, and I can appreciate that as I don't have the same time available as I did with EQ1.  That does not mean that having strategy and a higher difficulty with commensurate rewards is precluded.  Have your easy casual game, but should some players have the drive and ability to step it up a notch, give them the content.  I can deal, as a somewhat casual player, with people that put more effort into the game getting better rewards.  I can decide that way how to prioritize the time I spend in game... If that robe, heritage, or other item is that important to me, then I'll divert the time and energy into getting it.  Sure it may be slower for me than the "power gamers", but that's life.  Your arguments are not holding their water - what I hear is "pre-jealousy".  You sound like kids who don't understand why they can't have the best of the best all the time... <STRONG>Well here is a life lesson: You don't get something for nothing and just because someone else works harder than you and gets rewarded does not entitle you to the same.</STRONG>  That's life.  Period.</P>

[Scally W]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LadyEternity wrote:<BR> <BR>But anyhow, I think what they are doing with EQ2 is great. And I hope they continue. I look forward to the day when a casual player, solo player, small group player can all stand up tall and proud with a sense of accomplishment when they look at their character...free of the feelings of not 'being good enough' or 'substandard' or a 'hangers on'. When that day comes, it will be a good day indeed.<BR><BR><BR>Ellsa (Templar) -Test<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Sounds like communism to me.  Last time I checked that wasn't working out so well... <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is it so hard for you to see hard workers rewarded?  Does it just make your insides green to see that guy in the cubicle next to you who worked 2 jobs went to night school to achieve a higher degree get promoted above you?  I daresay this viewpoint what is wrong with the world!  More effort should equal more reward! All men are created equal, it's those that put in more effort that truly excel.  Don't begrudge someone the chance to excel just because of your slack attitude and perverted sense of what is fair.  You can still look at your character and feel accomplishment... claiming that the next gal who had more time/energy and has nicer things somehow takes away from you is truly pathetic.  It'll be a good day indeed when this kind of jealous gimme gimme attitude is no longer acceptable.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Scally Wag on <span class=date_text>04-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:44 PM</span>

[Strade]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Scally Wag wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LadyEternity wrote:<BR> <BR>But anyhow, I think what they are doing with EQ2 is great. And I hope they continue. I look forward to the day when a casual player, solo player, small group player can all stand up tall and proud with a sense of accomplishment when they look at their character...free of the feelings of not 'being good enough' or 'substandard' or a 'hangers on'. When that day comes, it will be a good day indeed.<BR><BR><BR>Ellsa (Templar) -Test<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Sounds like communism to me.  Last time I checked that wasn't working out so well... <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is it so hard for you to see hard workers rewarded?  Does it just make your insides green to see that guy in the cubicle next to you who 2 jobs went to night school get promoted above you?  I daresay this viewpoint what is wrong with the world!  More effort should equal more reward! All men are created equal, it's those that put in more effort that truly excel.  Don't begrudge someone the chance to excel just because of your slack attitude and perverted sense of what is fair.  You can still look at your character and feel accomplishment... claiming that the next gal who had more time/energy and has nicer things somehow takes away from you is truly pathetic.  It'll be a good day indeed when this kind of jealous gimme gimme attitude is no longer acceptable.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>You know that your post is Ironic?? Cause an "hard worker" in real life can't acomplish everything in game if its become the crabon copy of Eq1. Me think that a game is a game and should never be an hard work to acomplish something.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Me think that the people whinning are the powergamer that got at least 6 hours a day to play. If your lvl 50 already, im not and if completing an heritage for you is super easy, it is not for me cause i can't necesserly play 6 hours everyday.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So yes reward the hard worker ... in real life plese!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EDIT: Oh and if communism fail, its not cause its named communism but because people cant use it the good way. Tell me that capitalism work when you walk on street and see so much people that are poor and can't even eat enough to be healthy. These people are not lazy or anything. Most of the time they are the best people in the world, but they are born in a poor familly and couldnt get the education to be what they could be. Leave politic out of game please cause it does seem you don't have a clue what it is really.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Stradeus on <span class=date_text>04-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:50 PM</span>

[Scally W]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stradeus wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>You know that your post is Ironic?? Cause an "hard worker" in real life can't acomplish everything in game if its become the crabon copy of Eq1. Me think that a game is a game and should never be an hard work to acomplish something.</BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Me think that the people whinning are the powergamer that got at least 6 hours a day to play. If your lvl 50 already, im not and if completing an heritage for you is super easy, it is not for me cause i can't necesserly play 6 hours everyday.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So yes reward the hard worker ... in real life plese!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>What's ironic is that if you had read my posts I already stated I didn't fall into the power gamer realm.  I'm 34 years old, work full time, and attend night school full time.  So I will get rewarded in real life.  It's called being an adult and learning that life is not inherently fair (meaning you don't always get what you want little one).  Some day I may have more time and I know for a fact that I would very much like to see something in game for me to strive for.  Quit asking for handouts casual gamers and don't begrudge others a more challenging game.  The game you have to play is fine and entertaining and the standard, casual gear will see you through it.  Don't be immature and demand that which you did not work for.  I can only afford a Toyota, but I don't get upset when my neighbor buys a Mercedes... and that is what you are doing here.  You are asking for all cars to be the same quality and price.  Do you realize how boring this will get?  Have some foresight and lose the pettiness already.<BR> <p>Message Edited by Scally Wag on <span class=date_text>04-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:56 PM</span>

[Scally W]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stradeus wrote:<BR> <BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EDIT: Oh and if communism fail, its not cause its named communism but because people cant use it the good way. Tell me that capitalism work when you walk on street and see so much people that are poor and can't even eat enough to be healthy. These people are not lazy or anything. Most of the time they are the best people in the world, but they are born in a poor familly and couldnt get the education to be what they could be. Leave politic out of game please cause it does seem you don't have a clue what it is really.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Stradeus on <SPAN class=date_text>04-04-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:50 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>ROFL is that what you think?  How pollyanna of you.  There are BILLIONS of dollars put in to programs every year to help hardworkers out.  I'm proof those work.  It's a truly rich society that can afford to help those who need help.  A helping hand is not equal to a handout.  The American Dream and way of life is to promote those poor people to rise up through hard work and dedication and improve their lot in life. This is why every single one of us had motivated ancestors that came to this country.  That's fair.  It's not easy.  My family was dirt poor, but we prioritized.  I didn't grow up with nice cars, houses, Nintendos, etc. - what I got was every penny put into my education and was given the means that now I can afford these.  I got a job at 13 years old so I could afford a car and insurance myself at 17... not 16  I couldn't afford that at $3.63 an hour even in 3 years.  So don't you dare to presume to tell me about what being underpriveleged is.  If the opportunity had not existed to better our situations, then none of us would be here in the first place.  You are denying a fundamental staple of the human condition.  Who are you to decide that what you have should be as good as it gets!?<BR> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Scally Wag on <span class=date_text>04-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:10 PM</span>

[LadyEternity]

<div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Scally Wag wrote:<div></div> <p>To those disagreeing:</p> <p>  Ok so EQ2 is not EQ1... some of you claim only thing in common is the lore.  If that really was to be the case why not invent new lore and call the game something else?  The '2' implies a version, which in all the history of the world usually means "more of the same but better".  SOE has done alot to appease the casual gamer in EQ2, and I can appreciate that as I don't have the same time available as I did with EQ1.  That does not mean that having strategy and a higher difficulty with commensurate rewards is precluded.  Have your easy casual game, but should some players have the drive and ability to step it up a notch, give them the content.  I can deal, as a somewhat casual player, with people that put more effort into the game getting better rewards.  I can decide that way how to prioritize the time I spend in game... If that robe, heritage, or other item is that important to me, then I'll divert the time and energy into getting it.  Sure it may be slower for me than the "power gamers", <font color="#ff3333">but that's life</font>.  Your arguments are not holding their water - what I hear is "pre-jealousy".  You sound like kids who don't understand why they can't have the best of the best all the time... <font color="#ff0033"><strong>Well here is a life lesson: You don't get something for nothing and just because someone else works harder than you and gets rewarded does not entitle you to the same.</strong></font><font color="#ff0033">  That's life.  Period.</font></p><hr></blockquote>/hops up on her soapbox for a second LOL This isn't<font color="#6633ff"> <font color="#ffff33">life</font></font>! This is a <font color="#ff3300">GAME</font>! And to be quite honest, personally I don't give a rats fart what you have or don't have in the game. It doesn't effect how I view MY characters. However it DOES effect how I view my characters when I cannot play the game in a meaningful manner, in the time (semi-casual with ALOT of AFK's because I am a MOM and have KIDS and RESPONSIBILITIES) when the game was touted as being friendly to that exact style of play. And THAT my dear sir is why this game is losing, and WoW is gaining. And if EQ2 ever wants to have even HALF of the subscriptions WoW has, it's going to have to stop catoring to the hardcore gamers. Plain and simple. Sorry if this makes you mad, but it's the truth as I see it. I am sorry that majority of the gaming population is no longer hardcore. I feel for you, I do. But things change, people change, and that's just the way it is. If SOE keeps pushing the hardcore game, EQ will suffer, EQ2 will suffer, and their subscription base will dwindle....because the meat and potatoes gamers...the casual players who do not blow through the content in just a few months...will be playing other games...because they cannot get anywhere in EQ2. /hops down from her soapbox Ellsa (Templar) - Test</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by LadyEternity on <span class="date_text">04-04-2005</span> <span class="time_text">10:14 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by LadyEternity on <span class=date_text>04-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:15 AM</span>

[WapcapletT]

Sorry, but there will always be more players that lean towards "hardcore" than "casual" in MMO's   most people don't think paying 15 bucks a month for something they can only play an hour a day is worth it.  And you can't catch me with the " well if there are more hardcores, how come they're  not posting here?" they figured it out sooner, and left. poof.. 90% of the 1st Gens are gone, just a matter of time before the 2nd Gen steps up and calls foul. <div></div>

[Naggyba]

The biggest problem, most people I know, and myself have, is the lack of loot, especially on raid level stuff. The lack of the ability to make any cash adventuring, without just sitting and farming stuff, yet have mobs and zones that totally destroy your armor. Most of the people I know have a little cash and we are being punished for all the rich crafters, and others that took advantage of mechanics.They have made some really nice changes, they just keep making poor people even more poor and give crappy loot on major mobs and zones.The Bloodlines zone with T'haen the Lost for instance. You have like 100 ^^^ Gx4 mobs in the zone. You can narrow it down to like 60 or so ^^^ gx4 mobs to kill to get to T'Haen but, like only 2 of them drop anything. That's over 4+ hours of killing everything to get to the event, just to get 2 crap chest drops.Stuff like that is [Removed for Content] people off. We don't mind the challenge. The more of a challenge, the better we like it. The more we feel like we accomplished. We just want the rewards to match the risk. Right now, EQ2 is all risk and little reward. A lot of us hate harvesting and hate tradeskills (worst system ever devised in an online game) so, all we have left is adventuring and we are going broke. We would rather be sat down in front of someone giving a 6 hour lecture on cows, than do harvesting or crafting.This isn't EverCraft. Everquest was supposed to be an adventuring game with lots of quest. We have run out of those and the adventure part, while can be fun doing these raids, sucks for the loot. 24 people getting maybe 1 item that can be used, sometimes, is not what we call rewards. A kite shield with Int? What [Removed for Content] fighter class that can use kite and tower shields, have any use for Int? So not only do we have poor loot, the stuff we do have, doesn't make any sense in the stats.SOE took the lazy way out on items and stats. They put the same stats on everything in that slot and half the stuff doesn't make sense for the classes that can actually use it.Yet, they can spend time nerfing classes, instead of fixing underlying issues.<p>Message Edited by Naggybait on <span class=date_text>04-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:40 PM</span>

[Aegori]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Scally Wag wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LadyEternity wrote:<BR> <BR>But anyhow, I think what they are doing with EQ2 is great. And I hope they continue. I look forward to the day when a casual player, solo player, small group player can all stand up tall and proud with a sense of accomplishment when they look at their character...free of the feelings of not 'being good enough' or 'substandard' or a 'hangers on'. When that day comes, it will be a good day indeed.<BR><BR><BR>Ellsa (Templar) -Test<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Sounds like communism to me.  Last time I checked that wasn't working out so well... <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Don't begrudge someone the chance to excel just because of your slack attitude and perverted sense of what is fair.  You can still look at your character and feel accomplishment... claiming that the next gal who had more time/energy and has nicer things somehow takes away from you is truly pathetic.  It'll be a good day indeed when this kind of jealous gimme gimme attitude is no longer acceptable.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Scally Wag on <SPAN class=date_text>04-04-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:44 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>First off, i'd like to hear your definition of communism, because that statement made zero sense in my mind.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Secondly, this isn't about gimme gimme gimme. This is about people enjoying a game that they pay for. If EQ2 was only meant to cater to people who could put forth 10-15 hours+ a week of gameplay then they would label it as so. However, it is not and the sense of accomplishment for the casual vs. hardcore players should be similar. Mind you, accomplishment != expectation. The expectation of these two groups should be different. The casual player should have content that he/she can participate in and feel rewarded and fulfilled in that they get to experience the same kinds of things that a hardcore player would, just in a scaled down version (ie. solo/small group content, mini raids, quests, crafting). The hardcore gamers should have higher expectations in that they want to raid end game... they want to earn the best items in the game... they want to be at the top of the EQ2 Players standings. Sure, the casual players might want this as well, but their expectations are skewed if they believe they can accomplish as much as a hardcore player in the same amount of time. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also... just sort of off topic... i suggest you use a little more tact when speaking of casual players. These are generally people who work very hard to make a living to support their and/or other's lives in the real world. These are people that work tirelessly to ensure that the quality of lives of their families, themselves and others around them are of a good enough standard that they can even participate in entertainment such as EQ2. I dont ask that you bow down and praise these people, but i would expect that you show them a little more respect than calling them "slackers" in a video game and/or "pathetic". We work just as hard as you with the effort we are able to put forth. Our energies just aren't as focused as yours, and as i said above, our expectations generally aren't as high as yours. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Aeg</DIV>

[Scally W]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aegorian wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>Also... just sort of off topic... i suggest you use a little more tact when speaking of casual players. These are generally people who work very hard to make a living to support their and/or other's lives in the real world. These are people that work tirelessly to ensure that the quality of lives of their families, themselves and others around them are of a good enough standard that they can even participate in entertainment such as EQ2. I dont ask that you bow down and praise these people, but i would expect that you show them a little more respect than calling them "slackers" in a video game and/or "pathetic". We work just as hard as you with the effort we are able to put forth. Our energies just aren't as focused as yours, and as i said above, our expectations generally aren't as high as yours. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Aeg</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> If you would actually read and comprehend what I posted you'd know that I fall into the casual player definition.  Who I refer to is not the casual players but Lady"it'll take me an"Eternity and her ilk that are begrudging others a higher level of play.  This attitude of "I can't do that, so you shouldn't be able to" is ridiculous.  I didn't call them slackers or pathetic I called the attitude that.  There is a huge difference.  So take a second re-read what I posted, make sure you comprehend it and then post something accurate please.  What is being suggested by her and others is that no content should be out of their reach and that is just plain and simple ludicrous.  They should be able to do the majority of the game at a "casual" level, but hey somethings will take more than they have to give and that's just the breaks.<BR>

[zeeke]

<DIV>How in the hell could you even begin to think that someone that only plays 10 hours a week could even have REMOTLEY the items and or quest acomplished as a person that plays 40+ hours a week? Are you crazy?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In no way shape or form can that ever be possible. EVER! More time = more rewards and thats all there is to it. If your jealous that you dont have all that great stuff or all those cool quest then im sorry. The game can not go to a situation where they try to make you feel special just because you pay your 15 bucks a month. And thats what your saying.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Play more get more, play less get less. Its that way in life, and its that way in the game. And im sorry if you cant corrilate the two together. Just because its a "game" does not mean you automatically get everything you want.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Imagine real life if everyone had everything they wanted and didnt have to work for anything, free porsche for everyone!! Ever see the incredibles? Great line in there...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And once everyone is super there will be no super at all!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So im sorry you get your feelings hurt you dont have what a hardcore player has, but thats life. If Sony keeps the game going this way then all the hardcore gamers will leave and Sony will be stuck holding a black goose that makes no money. If you think the majority of the players have the casual gamer attitude even if they only play 10 hours a week you are mistaken.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its not the casual gamer, its the give it to me now gamer which is ruining this game and sony is listening to the wrong people.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Kroder]

<DIV><STRONG></STRONG><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> WapcapletTGS wrote:<BR>Sorry, but there will always be more players that lean towards "hardcore" than "casual" in MMO's   most people don't think paying 15 bucks a month for something they can only play an hour a day is worth it.  And you can't catch me with the " well if there are more hardcores, how come they're  not posting here?"<BR><BR><BR>they figured it out sooner, and left. poof.. 90% of the 1st Gens are gone, just a matter of time before the 2nd Gen steps up and calls foul.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Wow... that is so wrong.... Im a casual player, I maintain subscriptions on games I have gone months without playing.  The delusion about hardcore players being the dominant population is kinda sad.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only time hardcore players are the largest group, is when it comes to posting on websites, and complaining.  Think about it.  The casual player doesnt wanna give up their play time to do this, so <STRONG><EM>they don't</EM></STRONG>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And here's a thought for you guys, Sony is not in business to be it's own competition.  Sure, they have some product overlap in some areas, but they are using two seperate versions of everquest in order to appeal to a wider range of players.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EverQuest 1, the original: This game has an economy where, unless you are endgame, you do not camp for your gear.  You camp for the plat to buy it in the bazaar.  Your gear drops off of critters you could never hope to beat.  This is a hand me down economy, and is only useful to those at the top of the foodchain.  It has catered to endgame for the majority of it's expansions, and since the release of EQ2, will be more focused than ever.  It will cater more and more to hardcore players now that the casual players have a more dedicated Sony product to play with.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EverQuest 2, the newer game: This game is being aimed at everyone else.  Casual players, crafters, soloists.  While possible to solo in EQ1, with the right classes, almost all characters can do it in EQ2.  Specific parts of the game are being aimed at casual play, core elements to be specific.  Players expecting to be treated better because they can spend more time in game are better off in EQ1.  Casual players are the core of this, and Sony knows they pay the same amount each month, even though they do not play as much.  What company would not love that concept?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Viewed from a cost effective point of view, hardcore players represent a bad investment.  They are online frequently, tying up resources.  Acknowledged, they DID pay for this right.  That is not at issue.</DIV> <DIV>Casual players, on the other hand, play less than half as much.  They pay the same amount.  A server filled with them uses less bandwidth, less resources, but generates the same revenue.  Small wonder they want as many players like this as they can get their hands on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Don't cry about EQ2 not being for hardcore gamers.  Noone disagrees with you, they just wonder why you spend time complaining about the obvious.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Kroder]

<DIV>The log in for the website caused a double post, in error.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Kroder on <span class=date_text>04-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:11 PM</span>

[Scally W]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LadyEternity wrote:<BR> <SPAN><BR>LOL This isn't<FONT color=#6633ff> <FONT color=#ffff33>life</FONT></FONT>! This is a <FONT color=#ff3300>GAME</FONT>! And to be quite honest, personally I don't give a rats fart what you have or don't have in the game. It doesn't effect how I view MY characters. However it DOES effect how I view my characters when I cannot play the game in a meaningful manner, in the time (semi-casual with ALOT of AFK's because I am a MOM and have KIDS and RESPONSIBILITIES) when the game was touted as being friendly to that exact style of play. And THAT my dear sir is why this game is losing, and WoW is gaining. And if EQ2 ever wants to have even HALF of the subscriptions WoW has, it's going to have to stop catoring to the hardcore gamers. Plain and simple. Sorry if this makes you mad, but it's the truth as I see it. I am sorry that majority of the gaming population is no longer hardcore. I feel for you, I do. But things change, people change, and that's just the way it is. If SOE keeps pushing the hardcore game, EQ will suffer, EQ2 will suffer, and their subscription base will dwindle....because the meat and potatoes gamers...the casual players who do not blow through the content in just a few months...will be playing other games...because they cannot get anywhere in EQ2.<BR>/hops down from her soapbox<BR><BR>Ellsa (Templar) - Test<BR></SPAN> <P>Message Edited by LadyEternity on <SPAN class=date_text>04-04-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:14 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by LadyEternity on <SPAN class=date_text>04-04-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:15 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Meaningful to you decides how the game should work?  What does meaningful mean?  That is far to subjective a term to have as a criteria.  Does making level 50 have meaning?  Casual players can do that.  How about being able to do 90% of the content in game? Casual can do.  So you miss out on some raid mobs, soome heritages etc.  There was no guarantee that you could have everything you wanted in the EULA.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EQ is fighting for a niche that someone else is doing better.  I suggest your argument there is weak.  EQ defined the genre, what is happening here is that they lost focus.  People are tired of EQ1 and instead of creating content that satisfied a <U>matured</U> audience and adding casual content, they stupified the whole game.  They misread the market.  So you maam, are incorrect, if they don't add the hardcore game EQ2 will fail - they had a proven committed customer base that expected more and failed them chasing a casual market that was not theirs.  WoW=casual EQ=hardcore... you said it yourself.  So you are playing the wrong game and trashing my backyard for it.  I can only play EQ casually atm, but I hope there will be a time in the next couple of years that I may be able to step it up some.  I play now in preparation for that.  If you have your way, my time spent here will be for naught.  SOE lost Brad and many of the original talent in EQ1 to this very issue, and it seems that Brad was right on sticking to his guns and not participating in SOE's warping of the Vision.  <BR></DIV><p>Message Edited by Scally Wag on <span class=date_text>04-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:14 PM</span>

[Akairs]

<span>Please read my WHOLE post before you flame (people have a tendency to read a few lines get [Removed for Content] and sprout off nonsense)<blockquote><hr>WapcapletTGS wrote:Sorry, but there will always be more players that lean towards "hardcore" than "casual" in MMO's   most people don't think paying 15 bucks a month for something they can only play an hour a day is worth it.  And you can't catch me with the " well if there are more hardcores, how come they're  not posting here?" they figured it out sooner, and left. poof.. 90% of the 1st Gens are gone, just a matter of time before the 2nd Gen steps up and calls foul. <div></div><hr></blockquote> I just don't see it.  SOE did as a matter of fact stated that this game will be for the casual player as well as the hardcore player.  That is a fact and it is no use to dispute it.  "Hardcore" gamers that do not like the "dumbing" down of EQ2 can go play EQ1.  If SOE just turns EQ2 into EQ1 w/Enhanced Graphics SOE will lose.  They will drive away the Casual gamers and then they will have 2 versions of the same game and that is NOT what they are trying to do.  They are trying to steal the casual gamers from the other MMO's.  They hope to not lose thousands of players to games like Guild Wars this month.  GW is made for Casual players also and they mean it.  Not just some clever marketing tool to get players for a few months and then have them figure out that the game is just EQ1 Redux. While I do agree that a few of the proposed changes are crap the game needs to be more accessable to the casual player.  Those of us with children that enjoy playing and feeling a sense of accomplishment.  I really enjoy a Challenge and a equal reward and God only knows why SOE hasn't figured out the right balance for that equation.  (take for example the lvl 10 food for lvl 30 quests). I do not agree with all the catering to the crafters (I have a Provisioner so I am a crafter also).  The only people making money are High level players (45+) and crafters.  Do they really think that making everything attuneable and notrade will help the market?  LOL it will cause a lack of compition for the crafters and prices to go up but nobody will have money to buy cause they can't sell (NPC Vendor buyback prices have not made it to live so I do not know if they increased them or not) Yet I degress this isn't about specific changes but the "Dumbing Down" of the game in general.  I only wanted to state that this game was never ment to be like EQ1 and I recall the Dev's stating that they probably shouldn't have even named it "Everquest 2" on the grounds of trying to disassociate themselves with EQ1.  As I have limited time to play and I do spend the 15 a month for what amounts to maybe 10 hours a week I don't mind them Catering to the Casual players as they stated in the marketing releases for this game.  If that is not thier intention then they should just come out and state it.  Also I have to chime in on PvP.  SOE has explicetly stated that they have no intentions on PvP at this time and for people to come to the forums and whine that there is no PvP just makes them look brain damaged.  Thats like going to City of Heroes and whining cause you can't play a Troll Shadowknight.  Not sure what game you were planing on playing but that kind of post makes me laugh. Anyways to sum it up this game will change.  It will become easier for the casual players.  These are all facts and it would be prudent for you to either learn to accept that or go play EQ1.  I have had to learn to accept that the Crafters are thought of as the heart and soul of this game (IE I have created my own crafters to make my stuff rather then pay inflated prices)  You will learn to adapt and overcome these things or you will move on.  But I like other reasonable people know that for every 10 players that state "I have had enough and am leaving to play "X" game" only maybe 1 ever do it and SOE knows that too.  They know taht the Hardcore players that say they are leaving aren't gonna leave.  They know that those players that leveled their toons to 50 in a month are gonna maybe leave for a month to try something else (while leaving their accounts active for fear of losing all that hard work) but they will be back.  And if they do cancel they will be back in under 90 days for 2 reasons 1) to check on if the game was made more to thier liking and 2) so as not to have their toons purged (although I have no idea what the purge time is on canceled accounts).  Unlike the casual gamer who when they leave they have less time involved in thier toons and are more likley to not return if they are driven away.  Powergamers will come back at least to check but casual gamers have limited time and when they find a game that will cater to them they will stick with it.  I know that before my child came I had membership to 3 MMORPG's at once.  Now I have budgeted for 1.  If SOE doesn't keep my account then I can't play more then 1 and my money will go elsewhere more then likley never to return and trust me they know that.  They know that Casual gamers are more prudent with their money and that is a merket they are trying to get. SOE already owns the Powergamer market with EQ1.  They want to own both the powergamer market and the casual gamer market for fantasy mmorpg's.  That said EQ2 is their only shot at that.  There will always be powergamers in all games but they need to make a game that does appeal to the casual player and I think they mean to do that with EQ2 and I for one am glad. </span><div></div>

[Viroxi]

<DIV>I think most of this is a moot point. I agree with the OP and perhaps some will see that as bias, when I continue my post...but let's stick to facts. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The fact is the game was intended to cater "more" to the casual gamer, but it was also stated there would be plenty for the hardcore gamer and high-end content would be rich and rewarding. This is not the case according to most people that have reached that pinnacle of success in the game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The fact is that with every patch they are making the game easier and more accesible to all, and while these appeals to a few in the short term, in the end (and this is an opinion) the people that get their easy rewards will not be satifisfied because it took no real effort to get them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The fact is, people are leaving EQ2 to go elsewhere. In Everquest, 4-5 years after release, I could make an alt, and level  him up, and throughout I would be able to fine groups in any zone I was in. I've made an alt in this game, and the lower level zones are becoming less and less populated. (so are the higher level ones) There is not the same influx of people playing this game that there was for EQ. The same is true for the high level zones, people that have reached 50 and found the content and rewards wanting are leaving as well. The only zones that are well populated are the mid-level zones, where most of the playerbase currently resides. What we need to worry about is what happens when they get to their high 40's and eventually 50....and find the content and rewards lacking as well. No matter how casual a gamer is, eventually he/she will get to "the top". When this happens, and there is nothing left, will they stick around and wait for something new? No, they are a casual gamer, they'll more than likely go casually to something else, after all they have no investment in EQ2 per se..it's just something they can do.........casually.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[LadyEternity]

<span><blockquote><hr>Scally Wag wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Aegorian wrote: <div>Also... just sort of off topic... i suggest you use a little more tact when speaking of casual players. These are generally people who work very hard to make a living to support their and/or other's lives in the real world. These are people that work tirelessly to ensure that the quality of lives of their families, themselves and others around them are of a good enough standard that they can even participate in entertainment such as EQ2. I dont ask that you bow down and praise these people, but i would expect that you show them a little more respect than calling them "slackers" in a video game and/or "pathetic". We work just as hard as you with the effort we are able to put forth. Our energies just aren't as focused as yours, and as i said above, our expectations generally aren't as high as yours. </div> <div> </div> <div>-Aeg</div> <hr> </blockquote> If you would actually read and comprehend what I posted you'd know that I fall into the casual player definition.  Who I refer to is not the casual players but Lady"it'll take me an"Eternity and her ilk that are begrudging others a higher level of play.  This attitude of "I can't do that, so you shouldn't be able to" is ridiculous.  I didn't call them slackers or pathetic I called the attitude that.  There is a huge difference.  So take a second re-read what I posted, make sure you comprehend it and then post something accurate please.  What is being suggested by her and others is that no content should be out of their reach and that is just plain and simple ludicrous.  They should be able to do the majority of the game at a "casual" level, but hey somethings will take more than they have to give and that's just the breaks. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Hmm what do I want? Lets see..ok.. I want to login and be able to play alone or with my husband..and maybe another (reguardless of class) and do quests, have fun, find decent loot for the challenges the game has for my level of play. I want to explore and participate in the lore and mystic that surrounds the gameworld...and share my playtime with others IF -I- choose to...not because the game says I have to...to be allowed to have a fullfilling and enjoyable gaming experience. I don't want to have to play dodgeball with mobs I couldn't kill unless they were grey, just to reach the content that I can kill. I want to have content that is accessible and enjoyable, that provides value for the money I am paying to play this game. So far SOE has been doing stellar in changing EQ2 back into the game it was 'touted' to be. And they have my FULL support as long as they continue to do so. So I want raid loot? No..unless I go raid...in a raid group. Big Boss/Raid loot is only needed because the characters have to be so uberly equiped to be able to kill the uber mobs. Not really much difference between raid/big group drops and solo/small group drops. Just stat differences to make up for the fact that the mobs are increased in power to provide a challenge. Heh So I want to be able to achieve the same things as a person who is constantly in big groups? Some of it yes. But not all. Big group can kill harder things. However I don't think 90% of the quests and game world need to be tailored to them. Further more I don't see a reason to have 80-90% if all dungeon and overland mobs group. This makes the game unbalanced and shuts out the lower styles of play, which would be fine if this game was marketed as a "Group/Guild/Hardcore" game. But it wasn't. Ellsa (Templar) - Test</span><div></div>

[Scally W]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Viroxian wrote:<BR> <DIV>I think most of this is a moot point. I agree with the OP and perhaps some will see that as bias, when I continue my post...but let's stick to facts. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The fact is the game was intended to cater "more" to the casual gamer, but it was also stated there would be plenty for the hardcore gamer and high-end content would be rich and rewarding. This is not the case according to most people that have reached that pinnacle of success in the game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The fact is that with every patch they are making the game easier and more accesible to all, and while these appeals to a few in the short term, in the end (and this is an opinion) the people that get their easy rewards will not be satifisfied because it took no real effort to get them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Exactly what I've been getting one starred here all day for saying....</P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Viroxian wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The fact is, people are leaving EQ2 to go elsewhere. In Everquest, 4-5 years after release, I could make an alt, and level  him up, and throughout I would be able to fine groups in any zone I was in. I've made an alt in this game, and the lower level zones are becoming less and less populated. (so are the higher level ones) There is not the same influx of people playing this game that there was for EQ. The same is true for the high level zones, people that have reached 50 and found the content and rewards wanting are leaving as well. The only zones that are well populated are the mid-level zones, where most of the playerbase currently resides. What we need to worry about is what happens when they get to their high 40's and eventually 50....and find the content and rewards lacking as well. No matter how casual a gamer is, eventually he/she will get to "the top". When this happens, and there is nothing left, will they stick around and wait for something new? No, they are a casual gamer, they'll more than likely go casually to something else, after all they have no investment in EQ2 per se..it's just something they can do.........casually.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Absolutely the case as I see it.  They may do what they did in EQ... add hell levels or adjust the exp tables to slow people down and buy themselves more time to fix the mechanics and develop the content.  I've done over 300 quests and without trying have leveled to my mid 40's.  I play a couple of hours a night depending on my work and school and for a good chunk of the weekend.  The game is too easy.  I play a coercer, I see no need for my class as there is no skill required for managing mobs.  It's trivial to pull encounters and adds only happen if you are rushing or not paying attention.  Much of the player skill and strategy has been eliminated.  What I see is SOE blowing their cred with the harcore players from EQ1 and going after a casual market that is better done in WoW.  Vanguard will come out and pull the remaining hardcore gamers from here and this will tank and go down in history as one of the worst business mistakes in the history of gaming.  Hope they can pull the nose up... the ground is approaching fast.</P>

[Scally W]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LadyEternity wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> Further more I don't see a reason to have 80-90% if all dungeon and overland mobs group. This makes the game unbalanced and shuts out the lower styles of play, which would be fine if this game was marketed as a "Group/Guild/Hardcore" game. But it wasn't.<BR><BR>Ellsa (Templar) - Test<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Read the dev tracker... on test the overland content is being changed to solo/small group only in several zones.  There is your half... dungeons and raids for the rest.  Sounds like a compromise.  So does that mean we are getting close to agreeing here?<BR>

[Caath]

<DIV>So, so, SOOOO tired of whiners. You don't like the game the way it is? Stop always referring to WOW and GO PLAY THIS [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] game and quit EQ2 for christ sake.</DIV> <DIV>I like the game the way it is, I like the new features they add, and I am not the only one.</DIV> <DIV>So please all you whiners, do us a huge favor and delete your characters, stop posting in these forums and go play WOW.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thank you in advance!</DIV>

[LadyEternity]

Oh I know. I also know that it's simply R&D. I've testing the content. Have you? It's not set in stone by any means. If it goes Live then yes, it's a good start...for both of us. Because ya know, in the end both our styles of play are probably needed if this game is going anywhere anytime soon. I just want things to be equal in terms of fun. You can have your raids and big bosses and all, I just want to be able to login and participate in the game world in a meaningful manner with the time I have to play. And I really don't want to spend it arguing with my husband because he thinks I am some kind of crazy woman or masochist in playing this game (he plays ONLY because I do, it's how we spend our 'quality time' as it's a hobby we share, sense my computer croaked last wednesday -new one is on the way-, and I haven't been able to login..he hasn't logged in at all to my knowledge.), or spend it frustrated because the content is so horribly limited and alot of quests were undoable. If they can fix the game to provide for everyone, it will be nice. But remeber that, just as the casual/solo/duo/small grouper has to deal with the fact that there is loot they cannot get, some quests they cannot do, and a handful of places they cannot see...you in turn have to come to grips with the fact that to make the game scale properly some things have to be 'easy' and 'less challenging' to people like you who enjoy 'work' in a game. With that being said, lets give SOE our support about their balancing changes, and stop trying to make it more difficult for them. Ellsa (Templar) -Test

[Scally W]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LadyEternity wrote:<BR><BR>Oh I know. I also know that it's simply R&D. I've testing the content. Have you? It's not set in stone by any means. If it goes Live then yes, it's a good start...for both of us. Because ya know, in the end both our styles of play are probably needed if this game is going anywhere anytime soon. I just want things to be equal in terms of fun. You can have your raids and big bosses and all, I just want to be able to login and participate in the game world in a meaningful manner with the time I have to play. And I really don't want to spend it arguing with my husband because he thinks I am some kind of crazy woman or masochist in playing this game (he plays ONLY because I do, it's how we spend our 'quality time' as it's a hobby we share, sense my computer croaked last wednesday -new one is on the way-, and I haven't been able to login..he hasn't logged in at all to my knowledge.), or spend it frustrated because the content is so horribly limited and alot of quests were undoable.<BR><BR>If they can fix the game to provide for everyone, it will be nice. But remeber that, just as the casual/solo/duo/small grouper has to deal with the fact that there is loot they cannot get, some quests they cannot do, and a handful of places they cannot see...you in turn have to come to grips with the fact that to make the game scale properly some things have to be 'easy' and 'less challenging' to people like you who enjoy 'work' in a game.<BR><BR>With that being said, lets give SOE our support about their balancing changes, and stop trying to make it more difficult for them.<BR><BR>Ellsa (Templar) -Test<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Excellent.  I think we both see each other's points.  I enjoyed the repartee with you.  Hope we both win too.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[LadyEternity]

Always enjoy a good debate =) Brings me back to old high school days. Heh Ellsa (Templar) - Test

[BlackHa]

<P> I can understand people being frustrated with the loot drops. I can't understand how those who do not craft wish to impose upon those that do. Why don't you just stick to adventuring and quit worring about how others are enjoying the game (unlike you)? Better yet, why not realize the full potential of the game and do a little crafting as well?</P> <P> The reason for no-trade is 2-fold. Increase the desireability of quest items while retaining a market for crafters. It makes sense to me.  In other words....better loot is coming.  I'm sure it will be comparable if not better than the best crafted items. Of course many adventure-only types only want the best items to drop as loot. I can only describe those that feel this way as selfish. As a tradeskiller/adventurer, I am in favor of nice items coming from both venues. (If I were a selfish tradeskiller, I would want them to be crafted items only). </P> <P>The anti-crafters may as well realize that SOE has to much time, money, and effort put into this nice tradeskill system for the adventure type powerlevelers to tear it down. I doubt you will have little, if any influence upon the tradeskill system as compared to those that <STRONG>are</STRONG> tradeskillers.</P> <P> </P>

[Kroder]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Viroxian wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The fact is the game was intended to cater "more" to the casual gamer, but it was also stated there would be plenty for the hardcore gamer and high-end content would be rich and rewarding. <FONT color=#ffff00>This is not the case according to most people that have reached that pinnacle of success in the game.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Ok.. It may be just my opinion, but that is not how I would identify success.  Reaching a goal, maybe, but that goal may not have been chosen wisely.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>By zipping to the maximum level, in as short a time as possible, you have achieved the same thing that a person gets by reading the Cliff Notes on a major novel.  Yeah, you get the basics of the story, but it seems to lack depth, and you find yourself wanting something more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This game is not aimed at linear progression that way.  Side story elements are where you should be looking, when seeking depth.  Analogy?  The surface of the ocean is crossed repeatedly, while it's depths remain mostly unexplored.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You skipped over the bulk of the game by doing that.  Now you can say the number 50 is in your level ranking.  There are level 30 characters that have seen more of the game than you have, perhaps not the same parts though.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rather than stretching the level range, they did you guys a real favor.  Go mentor someone, see some of what you missed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Heck, how can you say the game is offering you nothing new, when old content like Frogloks are still locked in a quest out there?  Find it folks!  They don't tell you most of the quests you could find, that one should be much more obvious.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Don't complain... Conquer!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Vermilion]

<DIV>The more power-gamers/raid centric players that get mad/bored and leave the better.   Those type of people RUINED Everquest, send em packing back there.</DIV>

[Arioch]

<P><FONT size=2>The title of this thread caught my eye, I hope live players can post here also. I never played EQ1 and am in between hardcore and casual (about 25-30 hrs/wk) ok maybe hard core. I think the game has amazing graphics, a robust tradeskill system and a lot of possibilities. That being said I think SOE changes things WAY too fast, I barely have time to see if I like the changes before further changes are made. It almost seems like smoke and mirrors. When I joined my guild in Jan every weekend we had about 1/2 our members on and had a blast, even if other guild members weren't on I still had a blast. Now my guild is all but dead in EQ2 and the main reason they all mentioned was the simplistic and linear aspects of the game as well as the constant sweeping changes. I still like the game but am not looking forward to the most recent test notes going live.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2> IMO SOE should let things settle and concentrate on some of the broken things spells, quests etc that we currently have and let people get used to the game. The silent majority of players like at least enough parts of the game to NOT leave and would prefer what is currently in the game to be fixed before adding new content or making grand changes to the game.</FONT></P>