Ruse changes, what the Devs don't seem to know, and a plea

[Gory]

<DIV> <P>In general, the changes in the patch notes for us Brigands are very good things, and I am very happy to see some longstanding skill fixes going in.  One item, in particular, however, has me concerned, as it highlights what appears to be a major misunderstanding with one of our most important and valued skills:</P> <P>"<STRONG>Brigand changes:</STRONG></P> <P>- Ruse will now activate any time an enemy performs a hostile action on the brigand rather than only when the brigand is hit."</P> <P>On the surface, this seems to be intended as some kind of improvement to the skill.  It is, however, quite incorrect:  <EM><U>Ruse does not now, and never has, required the Brigand to be hit in order for the effect to go off</U></EM>.  Moreover, Ruse currently does not actually require the mob to do anything at all to fire.  In light of this, any change to the skill that requires us to have aggro in order for it to go off would actually be a massive nerf.</P> <P>We may not be as frail as mages, but we are also not tanks.  We wear tissue paper, not plate mail.  Any change of this nature would take one of our most favored, effective attacks and make it a sometimes-useful support ability, that might come in handy if the tank dies or is extremely unskilled.  In a good group, it would be totally worthless, as (true to our class design) we would not be the ones getting hit.  As it currently stands, Ruse makes sense.  High risk, high reward - its a highly effective attack, but it also generates a lot of hate, and generates additional hate as a side effect.  It has the potential for large amounts of damage, and the potential to get you killed.  The choice of when to use it, and the judgment call of when it is safe, is the Brigand's alone, as it should be.</P> <P>The last major update broke Ruse again briefly.  Prior to that patch, it would do exactly as the flavor text of the ability said it should - the Brigand would feign death, it would increase the Brigand's hate with the target, and once the target's next melee attack hit, the nuke portion of the ability would fire ("...The Brigand gains the creature's attention, and launches a surprise attack when it strikes.").  The thing of note here is that, while the mob in question had to activate a physical attack, the physical attack didn't have to hit <EM>you</EM> - it could hit the tank, the mage, or RandomPartyMemberNo1, and it would fire all the same.  This was the source of a small amount of controversy, as the wording of the flavor text is ambiguous (it says the mob must <EM>attack</EM>, not that it must attack <EM>the brigand, </EM>as some people interpreted it).  Post-patch, however, Ruse would only fire in incredibly limited, non-sequitor circumstances:  it would not fire if the mob took any damage, if you took damage from another mob, if you took damage from a non-melee attack from the target, or if you changed your X/Y coordinates at all after activating it.  It wasn't actually worthwhile to activate it, as you'd probably fall on face in the dirt for nothing.  Even if you were just fighting one solo mob by yourself, any of our DoTs (poison, hidden shiv, etc.) would break the effect.</P> <P>After the fix went in, Ruse's behavior changed again, and for the better:  now, it fires immediately upon activation, instead of waiting around for the mob's attack.  This is a good thing, because it gives us more control over the ability, while not affecting our DPS at all (if you're wondering how that is, you could always cancel the FD effect and proceed to attack while waiting for Ruse to go off.  Even if you ran around the mob and stabbed it in the back eight times, Ruse would still fire as soon as that next physical attack landed, and it would still fire once every 60 seconds, so the damage output remains the same either way).  The new Ruse eliminates the variable of how long the mob is going to be sitting there casting or using special attacks - the damage simply fires upon activation, come hell or high water. This provides more control over when, exactly, the damage gets done, which is a good thing.  We like it like that.</P> <P>Ruse has been fixed and broken and fixed again on and off since the game launched, and each time it has elicited a communal cry of pain from all of Norrath's Brigands.  Ruse is one of our most valued and unique skills, something that really sets us apart from the crowd.  It's effective, it's different, it's hardly over-powering, and it helps to keep our DPS where it belongs - ahead of the fighters.  Why change it?  We are all quite happy with this skill as it is.  We do not want it changed.  It's working great.  If something must be changed, then change the flavor text, as that's the source of what little controversy there is surrounding this skill.  But please, leave our Ruse alone.  It's had a rough life as it is.</P> <P>Please.</P></DIV>

[DevlDeg]

Wow Ruse is your class defining DPS skill.  If it requires you to be hit..OUCH!  My Brig friends will not be happy people.  <div></div>

[Akacia]

<DIV>I agree 110% - if this change goes in and stays as is we will be a massive step down in the DPS department</DIV>

[Gory]

<DIV>Most striking is that the patch notes imply the people changing the skill believe it has functionality that it does not.  It would seem to be a poor basis for altering the skill.</DIV>

[Dimidri]

<DIV>There basically wouldn't be a point in Ruse in a group situation, unless the tank died. I don't see why this is needed, Ruse isn't that big of a deal once you reach in your early 30s when your other skills do more DPS. I would like to see a reason as to why this happened. I know I won't get one, but I would really like an explanation.</DIV>

[Enko]

<DIV>I see no reason to change this skill. The main reason I became a Brigand was for Ruse. It's a nice damage attack that sets Brigands apart from other scout classes. Why not try fixing skills that are actually not working properly instead of tweaking a skill that finally works perfectly fine?</DIV>

[batter_then]

i think SOE hates brigand... we get the worst of it all.. dps scale backs agil nerfs.... it all allways comes back and hits the brigand in some way or form... its like every single patch there is a new nerf

[Turb]

I'm probably going swashie not brigand with my rogue, but I think Brigands should keep Ruse as currently works, even if that's always been different to what the skills text description says. Rogues need all the dps they can get, and it's not like we can solo much any more <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Fairlane]

<P>I finally have to make a post about all the recent Brigand bashing I have been seeing on these and many other forums. I really dont understand where such disgust for the role of the Brigand is coming from. Are we the best DPS in the game? No. Do we do any one thing better than any other class? No. Do we get any class defining abilities that make us any better than any other class? No. Are we a blast to play? You better believe it.</P> <P>Prior to playing EQ2 I had played EQ1 since around its release. I have always seen this constant need for people to be the best. If there class wasn't the best it was this ongoing thing about how bad SoE hated them and how bad they had been nerfed and blah blah blah. I've never been able to understand that mentality.</P> <P>I do appreciate the people on the boards that can construct an intelligent post about what they would like to see changed and for what reasons. When it gets to the point of people complaining w/o reason about certain aspects of their characters that I really start to wonder why they are even playing that character or this game for that matter. Relax a little and look at some of the good points of your character.</P> <P>I've played my Brigand from day one with out any desire to start another character. I have leveled him to 50, completed numerous heritage quests, and killed some of the most powerful raid mobs in the game. Being a Brigand has not hindered me from doing anything that anyone else could do. In fact I really enjoy playing the class that everyone seems to think is the "odd man out" of sorts. On my server Brigands are the least played class at under 100 players. I am currently the only active level 50 Brigand. I love it.</P> <P>My intent here was not to start a flame war. I'm just hoping that a few of you will take a step back and enjoy your toon for what it is instead of always looking at it as what it isnt. </P> <P>-Cheeb of Neriak</P>

[Gory]

<DIV><EM>My intent here was not to start a flame war. I'm just hoping that a few of you will take a step back and enjoy your toon for what it is instead of always looking at it as what it isnt.</EM> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not concerned with all the things my Brigand <EM>isn't</EM>, I just want it to continue being what it <EM>is</EM>.  It doesn't make sense to retool one of our skills in such a way that it could only possibly be useful in groups if we were an entirely different class archetype.</DIV>

[Gory]

With any luck, this change will be reconsidered before the patch goes live.

[TricksyRaton]

Devs, the current implementation of ruse is perfect. Please no more changes.  /beg<span></span> <div></div>

[Ghin]

<DIV>Please...leave Ruse as it is.  Like my dad always used to say..."If it ain't broke, don't fix it."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Arkady Winterborne, 28th Brigand of Crucible - Unrest Server</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"A single blade at midnight is worth a thousand blades at dawn."</DIV> <DIV>-Stilletto Poisonheart, Rogue Extraordinaire-</DIV>

[Efour EQ2]

<DIV>Has anyone actually tried it on test ? rather than panic about another craply worded set of patch notes?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[WuphonsReach]

<blockquote><hr>Efour EQ2 wrote:<DIV>Has anyone actually tried it on test ? rather than panic about another craply worded set of patch notes?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><hr></blockquote>Amen... I'm waiting until we see *factual* reports from Test as to what changed before getting up in arms about any oddly worded patch note. The odd thing is, that change is similar to what happened with LU #5, where Ruse only fired when you got hit. Which makes me think that it's an old, outdated patch note, that got randomly inserted. That change in LU #5 was quickly un-changed, and Ruse is actually *better* then it was prior to LU #5. (A 1 sec FD timer, rather then a 5 sec timer and being able to use sit/stand to short-circuit the timer.)So, until this hits live servers and I see it in action, I'm holding my /bug pen in reserve.

[Akacia]

<P>Fairlane</P> <P> </P> <P>I would agree with you 110% on some of your astatements however - I also have been a brigand and a level 50 one at that since Januaryish. </P> <P> </P> <P>This is a pretty serious nerf to the class, I don't expect to be the highest DPS out there nor do I need to be but take out a potential 1600 dmg attack from me every minute is not good. How often do you actually get hit in a group that this will go off for you? Not much I am willing to bet.</P> <P> </P> <P>I have many more important complaints that do need fixing like Adept3's and masters that are worse then having an Adept 1 ability. Ruse is and was fine. I would like to count the amount of feedbacks and ticked off people they get once this goes live - IF it goes live.</P>

[Gory]

<DIV><EM>Amen... I'm waiting until we see *factual* reports from Test as to what changed before getting up in arms about any oddly worded patch note. <BR><BR>The odd thing is, that change is similar to what happened with LU #5, where Ruse only fired when you got hit. Which makes me think that it's an old, outdated patch note, that got randomly inserted. That change in LU #5 was quickly un-changed, and Ruse is actually *better* then it was prior to LU #5. (A 1 sec FD timer, rather then a 5 sec timer and being able to use sit/stand to short-circuit the timer.)<BR><BR>So, until this hits live servers and I see it in action, I'm holding my /bug pen in reserve.</EM> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Two problems with that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1)  LU#5 did NOT change Ruse such that you had to be hit for it to fire, it broke it in entirely different ways (see my original post for an explanation).  As evidenced by the fact that if you got a friend to taunt a mob, had him turn auto attack OFF, and then sit there getting hit by it, you could run in front of it and Ruse it just fine, despite the fact that the mob was hitting your friend, not you.  Similarly, reports that you could no longer cancel the FD and still have it go off were wrong.  You <EM>could</EM> still cancel the FD, and it would still go off, unless you actually moved around after canceling it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2)  Ruse has repeatedly been broken and then fixed and then broken again, and as nearly as I can tell, it has never been caught on Test before a patch went live.  This leads me to believe that are no Brigands on test, or so very few that there might as well be none, as they're obviously not catching these problems with a very major skill that all Brigands have and use regularly from 21 on up.  Given that, surely you agree that it's better to have potential issues addressed before the patch goes live than to sit back and pray that <EM>this</EM> time, maybe history <EM>won't</EM> repeat itself?</DIV>

[Fig]

<DIV>I have no problem with Ruse as it currently exists on Live servers.  I see no need for any change.  In groups, we have several class-defining de-aggro skill lines, why force us to GAIN aggro to use Ruse?  It's conterintuitive.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PS: I really like the FD animation, especially loved it at lower levels or with a healer in a group who had never seen it before, but it seems the animation itself it what's troubling the DEVs.  I'll give you a hint - the animation is currently pointless, and we like it that way.  You can leave the animation in as it exists and we will use it when we want to (or just sit/stand when we don't), but don't make us have to steal aggro from the tank just to use our best ability.  Stop trying to tie the animation, the skill start, the damage application, the reuse timer, and the aggro together.  As it currently works on Live, it is nothing more than a high damage nuke with a neat animation - leave it as such please.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Figgs on <span class=date_text>04-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:55 AM</span>

[Gory]

<DIV>Well said, Figgs.</DIV>

[Aral]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Akacia wrote:<BR> <P>...</P> <P>This is a pretty serious nerf to the class, I don't expect to be the highest DPS out there nor do I need to be but take out a potential 1600 dmg attack from me every minute is not good. How often do you actually get hit in a group that this will go off for you? Not much I am willing to bet.</P> <P>I have many more important complaints that do need fixing like Adept3's and masters that are worse then having an Adept 1 ability. Ruse is and was fine. I would like to count the amount of feedbacks and ticked off people they get once this goes live - IF it goes live.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Just want to make it crystal clear before people get a mistaken impression from the above.  Ruse has a <EM>maximum</EM> of 1600 at adept 3, a maximum I myself have never reached at level 47 (adept 3 ruse myself - 1556 is high, on a blue eyeball in RE). </P> <P>The mean ruse hit in actual exp groups - fighting yellows - is around 700-800.  I still get hits for 500s, especially on skeletons, and occasionally get 1200 + ONLY on caster mobs, never melee mobs.  </P> <P>While ruse seemed really powerful back in the 20s and 30s, it's pretty mild compared to the damage available to <EM>fighter</EM> classes via arts in the 30s and 40s.  We need ruse - as it is - every fight just to keep close to fighter dps.  That's the reality.  If this change to ruse is real, I do not see how I could ever put out equal dps to any fighter hitting from behind with a two hander, even assuming it's a single mob and all my positionals land and poisons proc. </P> <P>As was mentioned above, the GLARING problem which has not been addressed or even acknowledged (makes me angry the more I think about it) is how our level 30s and 40s combat arts are marginal or negative upgrades.  Get your [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] busy making major improvements to these rather than ruining a mighty 700-damage once a minute hit, so that we can actually do better dps than fighters in the 40s, as intended.  <BR></P>

[Gory]

What Aralys posted matches my own experiences with the skill as well - 800 or so is average, dropping as low as 500-600 on fighter mobs, rising to 1000-1200 on caster mobs, and very rarely spiking near 1600 (this is all with Adept III).

[WuphonsReach]

At level 38-40, with the Adept 3 version:Common hit for Ruse is 650-800Uncommon hit is 800-1000RARE hit is 1000-1250And it don't seem to matter much if I've managed to fully debuff the mob or not (I've even experimented with using Rash Advance just prior to firing off Ruse).

[Sharpen]

<DIV>Please just leave Ruse alone, for all the above reasons.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Heck, give us a Ruse2 at lvl41ish. :smileyhappy: We could USE it.</DIV>

[batter_then]

ya ruse shouldn't be changed... it is the one thing that makes us special....

[Trei]

<div></div>Well, if the spell balance guys are adamant about Ruse requiring aggro to function then I have this compromise to suggest: <b> edit:</b>  - remove front position requirement. - it has to have a very reliable and powerful taunt effect, to make sure brigs have a good chance to grab aggro from MT when they use the skill (eg: increase brig agg position by 10) - FD to kick in when brig gets aggro - an even more powerful <b>de</b>taunt to make sure that the brig will lose aggro immediately when the FD kicks in (ie: drop agg position of brig by 100 <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span>) - have ruse do damage the instant the brig loses aggro, maybe even have it generate no aggro - to have all the above happen within the same 1-2 seconds as it is doing now. - expected result would be for mob to turn on the brig for just that single instant and brig falls 'dead', mob turns back immediately and gets backstabbed by 'dead' brig. There would of course be that small risk that the mob attack timer happens to be up in that same instant but imho the damage and reuse timer of the skill justifies it. Probably sounds a little controversial yeah but I think it would make more sense this way from an RP point of view, but at the same time have <u>minimal impact</u> on its usage and utility compared to current version. Why call it Ruse and have some silly FD animation and all if its gonna end up being just a simple frontal hi-d attack? <div></div><p>Message Edited by Trei49 on <span class=date_text>04-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:45 AM</span>

[Rann]

"Ruse does not now, and never has, required the Brigand to be hit in order for the effect to go off."This is a bug that was fixed at one time but then broken again the very next patch. Just because its been broke and Brigands (including my self) have been quiet about it, does not makes it right. --Rannoc

[Adren]

I guess I can one up you guys on Ruse damage as I have a Master1 Ruse <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (mean is probably about 1500, low damage=900-1000, high 2000+, highest being 2551) This change is BAAAAD.  The only time I gain aggro is if the tank is bad and I am nonstop spamming+poisons+weapon procs and there isn't a wizard/warlock in the group.  This will effectively render Ruse useless, unless you like to solo blue junk mobs and take 660000 years to reach level 30. <div></div>

[Gory]

<DIV><EM>This is a bug that was fixed at one time but then broken again the very next patch. Just because its been broke and Brigands (including my self) have been quiet about it, does not makes it right.</EM> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This has <EM>never</EM> been 'fixed' in the way you suggest.  As I've explained twice now, the patch in question <EM>did not make it such that you had to have aggro for Ruse to fire.</EM>  That was an assumption a lot of people made when they noticed it was no longer working in groups, but it was incorrect.</DIV>

[Kegofbud]

The wording is kind of msketchy and I hope it's wrong. I love this skill but if they make yo take agro to use it, it'll be junk. Please fix the scalign of our 30-40 spells because it's sad that Adept 1 40s skills are same damage as the 30s in so many cases. Please leave this be and fix our real broken skills.

[Gory]

<DIV>Well, this patch theoretically goes live tomorrow, and we are close to out of time to get a reply on this.  I guess we wait with baited breath and see.</DIV>