Allow players to COPY characters to test so that things like this week don't happen again

[ITZBITZ]

Face it SOE, most players are NOT going to level a toon on test. Many of the players are there just to find out about things in advance and prepare their main for the request (price changes on NPC, etc.). If we could COPY a character to test (leaving our character on the original server for us to continue to play), we could test our classes to find out if things are broken in advance before they hit live and the disaster of a patch we got this week happens. So many classes posted within minutes that things were broken. Just think if this were on test, you could have avoided angering most of your player base as you have done with this patch. Anybody see the server stats for last night? By 1 AM there was NOBODY playing, nobody was on that I normally see every night. In talking with guildmates and friends this morning, everyone is angry about the changes that were so blatently not tested. So what do you think Sony, is it time to step up and make your testing server something of value to those of us that actually play the game? <div></div>

[Lairdragna]

The more I hear this suggestion made the more I begin to think it is a good idea.  I don't have the time or inclination to level another character.  I don't have enough time to play my main as it is.  But given the opportunity to copy my character over to test, I would.  Allow one copy per account so the server doesn't get bombarded, but put some more players over there.

[Lig]

I have to agree here 100%

[Drowsy]

<DIV>This last patch really messed up some classes, and there is no excuse SoE.  Agrees with the OP.</DIV>

[Sirlutt]

i 100% agree.. you either have 2 options as i see it. Allow people to use "blue frogs" like in SWG Test Center sometimes. or Allow people to COPY one character to the test center (make it take a char slot - thats fine).. i dont want to have to stop playing with my guild to help test.  I also dont want to have to spend 4 months relevelng a toon.. but i DO want to help test stuff on the test server. <div></div>

[Erronn]

Or, SOE could HIRE testers to test their products...

[Dashofpepp]

<DIV>Hire quality assurance folks?  Ermm....in the MMO world, it works a bit different.  We hire THEM to let US test their products.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Didn't ya know?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Retribution - Befallen</DIV>

[Rizzen19]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Erronn wrote:<BR>Or, SOE could HIRE testers to test their products... <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Which they should do anyway because half of the folks in test center are only there to find new exploits ... and no .. not sothey can "report" them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[waswas-f]

<blockquote><hr>ITZBITZ wrote:Face it SOE, most players are NOT going to level a toon on test. Many of the players are there just to find out about things in advance and prepare their main for the request (price changes on NPC, etc.). If we could COPY a character to test (leaving our character on the original server for us to continue to play), we could test our classes to find out if things are broken in advance before they hit live and the disaster of a patch we got this week happens. So many classes posted within minutes that things were broken. Just think if this were on test, you could have avoided angering most of your player base as you have done with this patch. Anybody see the server stats for last night? By 1 AM there was NOBODY playing, nobody was on that I normally see every night. In talking with guildmates and friends this morning, everyone is angry about the changes that were so blatently not tested. So what do you think Sony, is it time to step up and make your testing server something of value to those of us that actually play the game? <div></div><hr></blockquote>I agree that players should be allowed to copy to test. It just makes sense. Here is why.** There are players of all levels that would want to test on test, but yet do not want to redo a char from scratch. So all levels of the game and zones will have active testers.** Testing should not be a full commitment. Players that are on test now have gone above and beyond sacrificing their time. But alas -- testing will always become out of favor with people. Letting people copy to test allows fresh energized people to test when they want -- aggressively. ** Kinda on the same note players that have vested interest in specific changes can _really_ test the heck out of them and report feedback on a case by case basis.** Player copy to test will allow server wipes with fewer tester player loss and hard feelings (and yes server wipes and reverts should happen especially when things like the 20pp heritage sellback happen). That kind of bug is why SOE tests. It's great that they find them on test -- but to not wipe and reset the economy on test means the test server is no longer valid for testing economy changes. Why would something that works on a server where the avg level 30 has 20pp work as well or even nearly the same on a live server? If copy was allowed then you could reset or wipe and have a fresh copy of actual live server players.I can think of no negatives by allowing test copies. The only real problem with doing it is SOE would have to code a system where it was fast and easy to do. -Waswas

[Kabil]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I agree that players should be allowed to copy to test. It just makes sense. Here is why.<BR><BR>** There are players of all levels that would want to test on test, but yet do not want to redo a char from scratch. So all levels of the game and zones will have active testers.<BR><BR>** Testing should not be a full commitment. Players that are on test now have gone above and beyond sacrificing their time. But alas -- testing will always become out of favor with people. Letting people copy to test allows fresh energized people to test when they want -- aggressively. <BR><BR>** Kinda on the same note players that have vested interest in specific changes can _really_ test the heck out of them and report feedback on a case by case basis.<BR><BR>** Player copy to test will allow server wipes with fewer tester player loss and hard feelings (and yes server wipes and reverts should happen especially when things like the 20pp heritage sellback happen). That kind of bug is why SOE tests. It's great that they find them on test -- but to not wipe and reset the economy on test means the test server is no longer valid for testing economy changes. Why would something that works on a server where the avg level 30 has 20pp work as well or even nearly the same on a live server? If copy was allowed then you could reset or wipe and have a fresh copy of actual live server players.<BR><BR>I can think of no negatives by allowing test copies. The only real problem with doing it is SOE would have to code a system where it was fast and easy to do. <BR><BR>-Waswas<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Well .. there would be some negatives.. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Say you move your 36 Templar .. (using myself as an example) .. and you get an awesome group and you land a master chest item . on test server.. the most awesome item you can think of .. ( use imagination ) .. This item would not go back with you to your live server.  This could suck .. unless you decided to only play on the test server and leave the live server behind.  Another issue would be the naming convention with the stats pages and listing servers.. you could get some server firsts on test .. and screw up the database because it sees server firsts on 2 different servers for the same name ..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not saying its not possible ., but yet not out ruling it at the same time..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I agree though with the ability to copy 1 character to the test server .. that would be awesome imho , there have been times i wanted to just quit and play on test to help out.</DIV>

[Styl]

<DIV>The only bad thing about letting people "copy" to test is this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lets say your guild copy's all its lvl 50's over to test.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>An adventure pack comes out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its put on test a week before it goes live.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The level 50's will all experience this content in test (without paying for it) and then by the time it goes live, they will have all the strats worked out, and as soon as the adventure pack goes live it will be owned in one day.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In the end, all the new content that is suppose to keep us occupied, until the next, will in turn be completed way before intended, thus making harder to keep players occupied.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The majority of people that want to copy to test, are people who just want to try out the new stuff before everyone else.  Or to get the adventure packs / expansions for free.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Right now, SoE has the test server for the lower levels to test out the basic stuff.  Where as the high end guilds on the regular servers are there testing grounds for end content.  This has been seen time and time again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SoE needs to hire people to test there own product.  Its that simple.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Stylin on <span class=date_text>03-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:09 AM</span>

[Evadne]

There are copies to test already. What? Surprised? It wasn't you. It already has been done. And guess what? It didnt help. Because not everything can be caught. And some things are changed that you won't like.  Bugs will be in this game.  They will go live. Some changes you will like....and some you won't.  There was no catastrophe.  I am not talking about the transfers. I am talking about copies. So, your idea was tried before this patch...... So much for your idea. ~Eva <div></div>

[Espyderman]

<DIV>I agree.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why do people type like this:</DIV> <DIV><STRONG>can _really_ test</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As if it makes us read it better, or exclamates whats bein said, personally when i see this i think the person is a smart [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot].</DIV><p>Message Edited by Espyderman on <span class=date_text>03-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:51 AM</span>

[Baelzharon]

I've stated in the past and will state again that I whole heartedly support this. I know the naysayers will claim this failed in some other MMOG, but that was then and this is now. If SoE manages this correctly the benifit far outweights the common problems we run into every week. The Test server is failing to catch bugs week after week because they don't have enough people, and this will bring a lot of new people into the testing process. Couple of things. 1. Copies should be purged after say 48 hours. 2. Players can only have 1 copy at a time to help leaverage resources. If this is not a possibility, then SoE needs to rethink their incentives being currently offered to Test players. Being first to see content isn't exactly a huge incentive, and perhaps we could expore something we all hold near and dear to our hearts... Our Wallets <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  If SoE were to offer full time Test players a reduced monthly rate you might find some students and other players who live on a budget more interested in testing. If your execs need an incentive tell them how many people you are losing revenue from because they quit over all the bugs and ruined gameplay week after week of poor testing has caused. <div></div>

[SideshowBob]

<P>Good idea! They SHOULD do that. Not only copy characters, but copy entire servers' databases over to a separate test server, in conjunction with their static test server.</P> <P>One of the things I always felt SWG did right was that they had multiple test servers. One test server was for players who created characters and chose to have those characters reside on Test long term.</P> <P>The other test server, what they would do is take a copy of one LIVE server's database and copy it to the test server #2, apply the test code, and let those players who normally played on whatever server they copied over, test their already established characters in that test environment. That way, you'd have a real test bed including masses of characters from all level ranges, and all types of different equipment and abilities to test in the new code. </P> <P>Once that chosen server's testing period was up (say a couple of days to a week) they would wipe that server, install another live server's database, install the test code and let those server's players go to town.</P> <P>For example, you'd always have Test Server #1 (where the characters that were created on the server chose to reside long term). Then for test cycle #1, they would copy over Bria Server's database on to Test Server #2, then invite all Bria players to log into Test Server #2 and play their characters in the test environment for a few days. Then for Test Cycle #2, they would copy over Corbantis Server's database on to Test Server #2, invite Corbantis players to play in the test environment, rinse and repeat as needed with all live server databases.</P> <P>While it didn't catch <EM>everything</EM>, it certainly seemed that after they implemented that testing menthod, SWG's patches went a lot smoother than the ones we have suffered through so far in EQ2... <shrug>  Just a suggestion though  :smileyhappy:</P>

[waswas-f]

<blockquote><hr>Stylin wrote: <DIV>The only bad thing about letting people "copy" to test is this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lets say your guild copy's all its lvl 50's over to test.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>An adventure pack comes out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its put on test a week before it goes live.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The level 50's will all experience this content in test (without paying for it) and then by the time it goes live, they will have all the strats worked out, and as soon as the adventure pack goes live it will be owned in one day.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In the end, all the new content that is suppose to keep us occupied, until the next, will in turn be completed way before intended, thus making harder to keep players occupied.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The majority of people that want to copy to test, are people who just want to try out the new stuff before everyone else.  Or to get the adventure packs / expansions for free.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Right now, SoE has the test server for the lower levels to test out the basic stuff.  Where as the high end guilds on the regular servers are there testing grounds for end content.  This has been seen time and time again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SoE needs to hire people to test there own product.  Its that simple.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Stylin on <span class=date_text>03-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:09 AM</span><hr></blockquote>Ok that is just faulty logic, If they copied their whole guild over and raided the expansion pack a week early and if they "owned in one day" after the the release -- the expansion pack only had one week worth of content -- the same duration would have happened on the live servers just one week shifted. Thats just silly logic.

[waswas-f]

<blockquote><hr>Espyderman wrote: <DIV>I agree.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why do people type like this:</DIV> <DIV><STRONG>can _really_ test</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As if it makes us read it better, or exclamates whats bein said, personally when i see this i think the person is a smart [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot].</DIV><p>Message Edited by Espyderman on <span class=date_text>03-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:51 AM</span><hr></blockquote>Its a leftover habit from someone that has been using irc/muds/talkd since the late 80's. Kinda like *gasp* or *cough* is used to show an action, _word_ is used to show emphasis. It comes from the same time and place that gave you =) and =P before they were auto replaced with images on forums.Not being an smart [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot].-Waswas<p>Message Edited by waswas-fng on <span class=date_text>03-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:37 AM</span>

[Eneg]

<blockquote><hr>Evadne wrote:There are copies to test already. What? Surprised? It wasn't you. It already has been done. And guess what? It didnt help. Because not everything can be caught. And some things are changed that you won't like. Bugs will be in this game. They will go live. Some changes you will like....and some you won't. There was no catastrophe. I am not talking about the transfers. I am talking about copies. So, your idea was tried before this patch...... So much for your idea. ~Eva <div></div><hr></blockquote> Despite the annoying tone of this post, he's right. There are copies of certain level 50 players on test, however they were few in number to begin with, and many stopped playing. While I dont think everyone should be able to copy players over, the GMs definitely need to refresh their pool of end-game players.

[waswas-f]

<blockquote><hr>Evadne wrote:There are copies to test already. What? Surprised? It wasn't you. It already has been done. And guess what? It didnt help. Because not everything can be caught. And some things are changed that you won't like.  Bugs will be in this game.  They will go live. Some changes you will like....and some you won't.  There was no catastrophe.  I am not talking about the transfers. I am talking about copies. So, your idea was tried before this patch...... So much for your idea. ~Eva <div></div><hr></blockquote>No, our idea was not tried. I have no idea where you are pulling this info from , but my idea was to let everyone copy to the test server if they wanted and to make it easy. If they did do some limited copies, it was not posted. It was not offered to me. It was not an open offer. So they may or may not have copied a few random people to test -- but that is not the point here (nor a test of what is being asked besides the obvious technical issue behind the request). The point is we want to have an open copy allowed. We think it will help catch more (not all) of the bugs. We want to try to help not sit back and watch -- but not invest double playtime for the task (keeping your test char at about the same level as your live server char).-Waswas

[ITZBITZ]

Some people seem to think it's a good idea, and I think it would be best if it worked like this: Visit Forum: Test Server Update Notes Spotted Login to Game: Aimelia/Kithicor /copytotest Logout, Login to Test as Aimelia/Test Go do all the things I normally do in an evening and see how it works out -- cast spells, examine stats, fight mobs, hit the market, try the e-mail system, chat with friends, etc. Get my group to come over and we go do an quick xp group in Zek/whatever to test combat. Okay? Done? wow, a master chest dropped a master I of uberness - big deal, it's a test -- too bad it's not on Kith. Logout, Login to Kith and resume life -- delete test character (or have it auto purged after next live update, whatever) Rinse. Repeat. I have no qualms about spending an hour or two before the Live Update if it means identifying game-breaking things before they hit production. As long as I don't have to level a toon to do it. I think the idea of an entire server copy to a new test server is a great one. Make it a random drawing or a rotating cycle and say, "Befallen, come on down, your the next server copied to test for 48 hours of testing before the next live update!" <b>Anything </b>to get the code tested by ALL levels and classes before it goes live. <div></div>

[LadyEternity]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SideshowBob wrote:<BR> <P>Good idea! They SHOULD do that. Not only copy characters, but copy entire servers' databases over to a separate test server, in conjunction with their static test server.</P> <P>One of the things I always felt SWG did right was that they had multiple test servers. One test server was for players who created characters and chose to have those characters reside on Test long term.</P> <P>The other test server, what they would do is take a copy of one LIVE server's database and copy it to the test server #2, apply the test code, and let those players who normally played on whatever server they copied over, test their already established characters in that test environment. That way, you'd have a real test bed including masses of characters from all level ranges, and all types of different equipment and abilities to test in the new code.</P> <P>Once that chosen server's testing period was up (say a couple of days to a week) they would wipe that server, install another live server's database, install the test code and let those server's players go to town.</P> <P>For example, you'd always have Test Server #1 (where the characters that were created on the server chose to reside long term). Then for test cycle #1, they would copy over Bria Server's database on to Test Server #2, then invite all Bria players to log into Test Server #2 and play their characters in the test environment for a few days. Then for Test Cycle #2, they would copy over Corbantis Server's database on to Test Server #2, invite Corbantis players to play in the test environment, rinse and repeat as needed with all live server databases.</P> <P>While it didn't catch <EM>everything</EM>, it certainly seemed that after they implemented that testing menthod, SWG's patches went a lot smoother than the ones we have suffered through so far in EQ2...  Just a suggestion though  :smileyhappy:</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I like this idea.</P> <P>I do not like the idea of a 'copy' enviorment however for the main Test server. It just does not breed a good enviorment. I've heard the talk all before, in other games. I remember back in DAoC, before they allowed copies. They had a great player community of dedicated testers. Yeah we didn't catch ALL the bugs, but we caught a good deal. Players started yappin, wanting copies, sayin how it would 'benefit everyone' and 'how selfish testers were for not wanting the copies, even so far as to call them elitists'. So Mythic bent. And you know what happened? Almost the ENTIRE testing community left. Pendragon became a ghost town. All Mythic got was a bunch of 'fair weather' testers that copied over to duel each other...or test out a handful of changes that directly would impact them...which I'd say about 80% never even bothered to report...least wise they never posted on the Pendragon Test BB. Fact is that player copies trivialize the already fragil testing community. Testers are a strange lot of people, me included...I mean you'd have to be...considering you are playing in a stark enviorment compared to live, you do not get paid.</P> <P>Now it seems to me that SOE is really starting to build a lasting Test community. And this is a very good thing. It would really break my heart to see it broken. If you want people to test these patches with their live characters, then have a new server set up to mirror an entire server. Perhaps you could offer the chosen server players some kind of incentive for testing so many hours each patch.</P> <P>But don't ruin the tester enviorment you currently have building on Test. It would not be a good thing at all.</P> <P>Blacksabath (Necromancer) - Test</P> <P>Ellsa (Templar) - Test</P> <P>Bardic (Bard) - Test</P>

[Tadok]

<P>Eva plays on test full time. I play on test full time. Thats where the info about the level 50 characters that got copied to test comes from. During the testing of the Bloodlines Adv. pack there were at any time between 4 and 8 groups of level 50 characters testing the new content. You havent heard about it because they were probably asked not to mention much about it so the thousands of whiners out there didnt go up in arms about it. And as Eva mentioned not all the bugs were found. </P> <P>Character copying on a small scale does a great amount of good for the devs. It lets them get a lot of solid testing done when and where they need it the most. Perhaps they didnt catch everything but they never will. Mass character copying will do nothing. Yes it will give many of you the chance to check out the new stuff before it goes live during live server downtimes but it wont get much testing done. I know of several bugs that went in that were very time specific and theres no way a group of part time players would have caught them because it was during peak hours of the live servers. Oh yeah you might find a bug or two and will maybe even take the time to /bug and /feedback it but that wont catch everything.</P> <P> And what would be the point of you not keeping your character on test up with your character on live. The only bugs you seem to be worried about are the ones that directly effect your character. If you dont keep your test character up soon after your copy you would be behind your main character and would not be checking bugs that effect you. Or do you want to be able to copy at any point in time? So the devs that run the test server would have to constantly wipe the server of unused characters or set up some new system to track the mirrored characters so they stay the same level? You say you dont want to spend double the time but you would have to in order to test for bugs that would effect your live character.</P> <DIV> If you really want to help catch all the bugs maybe you should think about rolling a full time character on test. The more people we could get testing full time the more we would catch. But theres no way a large group of part time testers would do the amount of good you are hoping for. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Labb</DIV>

[Daffid011]

<span><blockquote><hr>ITZBITZ wrote:Some people seem to think it's a good idea, and I think it would be best if it worked like this: Visit Forum: Test Server Update Notes Spotted Login to Game: Aimelia/Kithicor /copytotest Logout, Login to Test as Aimelia/Test Go do all the things I normally do in an evening and see how it works out -- cast spells, examine stats, fight mobs, hit the market, try the e-mail system, chat with friends, etc. Get my group to come over and we go do an quick xp group in Zek/whatever to test combat. Okay? Done? wow, a master chest dropped a master I of uberness - big deal, it's a test -- too bad it's not on Kith. Logout, Login to Kith and resume life -- delete test character (or have it auto purged after next live update, whatever) Rinse. Repeat. I have no qualms about spending an hour or two before the Live Update if it means identifying game-breaking things before they hit production. As long as I don't have to level a toon to do it. I think the idea of an entire server copy to a new test server is a great one. Make it a random drawing or a rotating cycle and say, "Befallen, come on down, your the next server copied to test for 48 hours of testing before the next live update!" <b>Anything </b>to get the code tested by ALL levels and classes before it goes live. <hr></blockquote>So what is stopping you from doing that now?  Load up the test client, make a new character, spend an hour to get off newbie island.  Then check out combat, check out the email system, chat with friends, cast spells, hit the market, etc.  You can do all of what you said without having a copied character.  The fact is talk is cheap and claiming all this testing can be done by someone "</span><span>spending an hour or two before the Live Update" just isn't realisitic.  It will however drive away the current testers and leave a bigger void for copies to fill.  Saying "</span><span><b>Anything </b>to get the code tested by ALL levels and classes before it goes live"</span><span> and then not backing that up by actually doing anything, let alone putting restrictions on why you won't, really makes your conviction questionable don't you think? If I sound short, I appologize, but it gets really old listening to people talk about how they would save the masses by popping over for an hour.  It just doesn't work that way on a mass scale, sorry.  </span> <div></div>

[Tatali]

I do think it would be a good idea for players to be able to copy to test to help uncover some of these huge bugs before they hit live servers. On the other hand, I understand the reason why SOE would like to keep an active player base on Test to play in a "normal" environment without people coming in and out of the game at all times, dumping off items and gold with each trip. In this case though, I'd have to say more testing would be better. Lets face it, most players who choose "Test Server" aren't there to test. No, I don't believe they're only there to get a preview of bugs to exploit on live, but instead I believe they play there becuase they know its going to be a smaller population so they get better hunting grounds. Sure, there's probably people who really do want to help out by finding and reporting bugs and giving feedback on new things, but its really not happening as well as it ought to. I think the existing test server should really be considered a "pre-patch" live server, just like any other. The only difference is, changes are uploaded to it frequently to check for stability. Then, create a true "Test" a server where players can copy to before the big patchs. This way, the folks who only want a "preview" can go over and look around... those are the folks who are likely going to test the heck out of the new changes and in doing so, find what's broken before it hits live servers. That server doesn't need an economy or a stable player base, it just needs to be around for the "1000 people can find a bug faster than 10" thing. If people want to play there, fine, but wipes should be common and expected after ever major patch as the main reason for it would be simply to have bulk testing of new materials such that dupe bugs, overpowered abilties, and other changes can be evaluated by a much greater number of people. <div></div>

[Eelyen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tataline wrote:<BR>I do think it would be a good idea for players to be able to copy to test to help uncover some of these huge bugs before they hit live servers. On the other hand, I understand the reason why SOE would like to keep an active player base on Test to play in a "normal" environment without people coming in and out of the game at all times, dumping off items and gold with each trip.<BR><BR>In this case though, I'd have to say more testing would be better. Lets face it, most players who choose "Test Server" aren't there to test. No, I don't believe they're only there to get a preview of bugs to exploit on live, but instead I believe they play there becuase they know its going to be a smaller population so they get better hunting grounds. Sure, there's probably people who really do want to help out by finding and reporting bugs and giving feedback on new things, but its really not happening as well as it ought to. I think the existing test server should really be considered a "pre-patch" live server, just like any other. The only difference is, changes are uploaded to it frequently to check for stability.<BR><BR>Then, create a true "Test" a server where players can copy to before the big patchs. This way, the folks who only want a "preview" can go over and look around... those are the folks who are likely going to test the heck out of the new changes and in doing so, find what's broken before it hits live servers. That server doesn't need an economy or a stable player base, it just needs to be around for the "1000 people can find a bug faster than 10" thing. If people want to play there, fine, but wipes should be common and expected after ever major patch as the main reason for it would be simply to have bulk testing of new materials such that dupe bugs, overpowered abilties, and other changes can be evaluated by a much greater number of people.<BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Better hunting ground?</P> <P>Solo'ing blows, period.  Always had.  I had to work hard to develop a group of friends I play with nightly now.  We're 2-3 weeks from level 50 tops probably.  As there are a good 20-30 people going to be hitting 50 soon.  The testers don't complain alot, they get on, they find bugs and they report them.  They work with the devs on a mature basis.  </P> <P>If they started allowing the copies I can assure you that all the player/dev interaction would most likely die.  Because all the devs would have to listen to people nagging them all the time or whenever servers were down.</P> <P>And obviously coping didn't work in eq1 as well.  What about all the expansions they copied people over for, yet people still say that stuff was missed?</P> <P>Face it, things will always slip by and you'll find something else to complain about.</P>

[Daffid011]

<span><blockquote><hr>Tataline wrote:I believe they play there becuase they know its going to be a smaller population so they get better hunting grounds. Sure, there's probably people who really do want to help out by finding and reporting bugs and giving feedback on new things, but its really not happening as well as it ought to. <div></div><hr> Despite there being more freedom and openess of places to hunt, it is far far easier to get groups on live and actually do those activities there than on test.  Easier to find people to fill spots by class or just people doing the same quest you are working on.   I would say that it is easier to actually play on live than it is on test.  It is the quality of player and community that attracts most people to test and being part of the testing process.  Not everyone here tests, but neither would copies by a long shot. Just because some bugs go live doesn't mean test isn't doing a great job.  You never see the things we do catch to make a fair comparison.   </blockquote></span>

[waswas-f]

<blockquote><hr>Tadok wrote:<P>Eva plays on test full time. I play on test full time. Thats where the info about the level 50 characters that got copied to test comes from. During the testing of the Bloodlines Adv. pack there were at any time between 4 and 8 groups of level 50 characters testing the new content. You havent heard about it because they were probably asked not to mention much about it so the thousands of whiners out there didnt go up in arms about it. And as Eva mentioned not all the bugs were found. </P> <P>Character copying on a small scale does a great amount of good for the devs. It lets them get a lot of solid testing done when and where they need it the most. Perhaps they didnt catch everything but they never will. Mass character copying will do nothing. Yes it will give many of you the chance to check out the new stuff before it goes live during live server downtimes but it wont get much testing done. I know of several bugs that went in that were very time specific and theres no way a group of part time players would have caught them because it was during peak hours of the live servers. Oh yeah you might find a bug or two and will maybe even take the time to /bug and /feedback it but that wont catch everything.</P> <P> And what would be the point of you not keeping your character on test up with your character on live. The only bugs you seem to be worried about are the ones that directly effect your character. If you dont keep your test character up soon after your copy you would be behind your main character and would not be checking bugs that effect you. Or do you want to be able to copy at any point in time? So the devs that run the test server would have to constantly wipe the server of unused characters or set up some new system to track the mirrored characters so they stay the same level? You say you dont want to spend double the time but you would have to in order to test for bugs that would effect your live character.</P> <DIV> If you really want to help catch all the bugs maybe you should think about rolling a full time character on test. The more people we could get testing full time the more we would catch. But theres no way a large group of part time testers would do the amount of good you are hoping for. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Labb</DIV><hr></blockquote>The problem with a limited copy of level 50 players is they have no real reason to /bug things that they would like to see go live but are broken. An example would be a coin exploit. If you let anyone that wanted to test /copy you will get more people test, and more /bug reports. That cant be a bad thing.About "The only bugs you seem.." line. Not true. But think about it for a second. If it were true don't you think that I would be impassioned about finding the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] bugs that effect my class at my level. Do you think that I would put my class that I care about through as much as I could to verify what is broken and /bug it. You seem to miss the whole point. /copy would allow all of these players that have very impassioned concerns about their class test what they care about. I for one would rather have 10 people like that testing my class and items for a few hours then 100 players that are more worried about playing the game and happen to play on test.Bottom line is more testers on test = better not worse testing. -Waswas

[PhourZwanZig]

<P>Like many others on the Test server,  I pretty much live here.. (Well I cant quite get into the game cuz Im too big to fit in my computer) but none the less.. </P> <P>We dont look (atleast I dont) at the Test server really as a test server.. It is our Live server..  Ive been here since the begining, started on live day of launch and soon </P> <P>found myself on the test server when it came around..  So to me Its my Live server, Just named TEST..  Ive workd just as hard as anyone one else playing on a live </P> <P>server (well minus our extra downtime) on growing my char, To me introducing copies is like cheating in a way..   I left a Lvl 21 char on a Live server which I havent  </P> <P>gone back to since joining Test..   So were did all my well spent time b4 joining Test go.. It is as if it never was, Unless I go back to Live (which Ive left there for that </P> <P>reason but havent needed)...   So ppl complaining that theyed have to Roll out a new character to test is a Lame one..  We all Did, so what make you Live players </P> <P>anymore special</P> <P> </P> <P>I do however think that a new Test server that they can use to MOCK a server is a great idea..  </P> <P>Just as was stated above PLZ dont screw w/ our test enviorment/community ---   It is growing just as the live servers have, just not as fast, but Its getting there..   And Ive noticed it..  Places Id hunt were Id be alone, I now see ppl pass thru..  So plz just plz let us evolve on our own..</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by PhourZwanZig on <span class=date_text>03-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:40 PM</span>

[waswas-f]

<blockquote><hr>Daffid011 wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>ITZBITZ wrote:Some people seem to think it's a good idea, and I think it would be best if it worked like this: Visit Forum: Test Server Update Notes Spotted Login to Game: Aimelia/Kithicor /copytotest Logout, Login to Test as Aimelia/Test Go do all the things I normally do in an evening and see how it works out -- cast spells, examine stats, fight mobs, hit the market, try the e-mail system, chat with friends, etc. Get my group to come over and we go do an quick xp group in Zek/whatever to test combat. Okay? Done? wow, a master chest dropped a master I of uberness - big deal, it's a test -- too bad it's not on Kith. Logout, Login to Kith and resume life -- delete test character (or have it auto purged after next live update, whatever) Rinse. Repeat. I have no qualms about spending an hour or two before the Live Update if it means identifying game-breaking things before they hit production. As long as I don't have to level a toon to do it. I think the idea of an entire server copy to a new test server is a great one. Make it a random drawing or a rotating cycle and say, "Befallen, come on down, your the next server copied to test for 48 hours of testing before the next live update!" <b>Anything </b>to get the code tested by ALL levels and classes before it goes live. <hr></blockquote>So what is stopping you from doing that now?  Load up the test client, make a new character, spend an hour to get off newbie island.  Then check out combat, check out the email system, chat with friends, cast spells, hit the market, etc.  You can do all of what you said without having a copied character.  The fact is talk is cheap and claiming all this testing can be done by someone "</span><span>spending an hour or two before the Live Update" just isn't realisitic.  It will however drive away the current testers and leave a bigger void for copies to fill.  Saying "</span><span><b>Anything </b>to get the code tested by ALL levels and classes before it goes live"</span><span> and then not backing that up by actually doing anything, let alone putting restrictions on why you won't, really makes your conviction questionable don't you think? If I sound short, I appologize, but it gets really old listening to people talk about how they would save the masses by popping over for an hour.  It just doesn't work that way on a mass scale, sorry.  </span> <div></div><hr></blockquote>This is exactly the point, To get the same level char on test with the same items and spell levels would take at least double the playtime. why the heck would I want to play 2 months on test to get a char up to my live server's level? I would like to test and /report issues because I want to see the game better -- but have no interest in playing the game 2x as much or losing half of my playtime on the live server to do so. I have a strong want to help make my classes better and fix bugs that affect me on the live servers, I play on the live servers. You choose to play on test. Does that mean that I would test any worse then you? bah I /bugged 6 very severe problems in 10 minutes of playing my char after this last patch. If /copy to test was live those would have been submitted before it went live. Each person has a vested interest in their own class and items. who the heck cares what server you play on -- the test server is there 1st for buffering and finding bugs before they go live, 2nd or even lower on the list is as a playable server.-Waswas

[ITZBITZ]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>waswas-fng wrote:About "The only bugs you seem.." line. Not true. But think about it for a second. If it were true don't you think that I would be impassioned about finding the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] bugs that effect my class at my level. Do you think that I would put my class that I care about through as much as I could to verify what is broken and /bug it. You seem to miss the whole point. /copy would allow all of these players that have very impassioned concerns about their class test what they care about. I for one would rather have 10 people like that testing my class and items for a few hours then 100 players that are more worried about playing the game and happen to play on test.<hr></blockquote>And that is my very point. I honestly don't care if Wizards are broken, I don't play one and it doesn't affect me. What I do care about is whether or not my class functions properly. And there are probably a dozen other people in my class that care as well. And there are probably a dozen of each class that care. Therefore, each individual class gets tested thoroughly because I care about my class and the things I do on a daily basis in the game. I certainly understand the concern about polluting test, and think this would only work if it was on a new server that was not test. Test is a place where people like to live, and to have people fly into the realm every patch wreaking havoc would be distruptive to that environment. But a new server that is fresh for every patch where ONLY newly copied characters are allowed would be perfect. Name collision? You're now Chada instead of Chad. It would work and I would almost bet that many people would be willing to use it after a test server update for a few hours to make sure that the content at their level isn't broken. They could compare it to the known baseline (live) and see how it reacts. Finish a quest in live? Go ahead and try to finish the same one on test and make sure results are the same. Compare spell buffs, attacks, etc. because they are the same toon on different servers. Lose your class defining ability by accident? You're certainly going to realize that. I've been in software development for twenty years and I know how you test software. You don't have a test lab with only test subjects. You copy live overnight and load the database onto your test system and run the client's daily processing through the system and make sure baselines match and new features don't break old functionality. Call them regression tests, smoke tests, whatever, the methodology is solid. Things are often missed in the test lab that show up in the first hour of testing in the mirror site with the new software being tested. On an ASP web application, this is devistating and the only way to reduce risk is to run a days jobs against the test system and compare results against the known baseline. This is exactly what I'm proposing here. </span><div></div><p>Message Edited by ITZBITZ on <span class=date_text>03-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:04 PM</span>

[Daffid011]

<span><blockquote><hr>waswas-fng wrote:<blockquote><hr><span></span> <hr></blockquote>This is exactly the point, To get the same level char on test with the same items and spell levels would take at least double the playtime. why the heck would I want to play 2 months on test to get a char up to my live server's level? I would like to test and /report issues because I want to see the game better -- but have no interest in playing the game 2x as much or losing half of my playtime on the live server to do so. I have a strong want to help make my classes better and fix bugs that affect me on the live servers, I play on the live servers. You choose to play on test. Does that mean that I would test any worse then you? bah I /bugged 6 very severe problems in 10 minutes of playing my char after this last patch. If /copy to test was live those would have been submitted before it went live. Each person has a vested interest in their own class and items. who the heck cares what server you play on -- the test server is there 1st for buffering and finding bugs before they go live, 2nd or even lower on the list is as a playable server.-Waswas<hr></blockquote>So your whole point is that you couldn't do any of that testing unless you had an exact clone of your character?  It is not like your going to actively level your copied character anyhow, and a new character would actually benefit and do things a normal character would really do like xp, adventure and shop.  Your words were: "</span><span><b>Anything </b>to get the code tested by ALL levels and classes before it goes live</span><span>".  Yet you seem unwilling to stand behind those words to do anything except test at your charaters level.  Hey, you never know you just might enjoy playing here with your strong desire to test and find 6 more severe bugs in 10 more minutes.   I know I enjoy it here and feel good finding bugs. </span><div></div>

[waswas-f]

<blockquote><hr>Daffid011 wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>waswas-fng wrote:<blockquote><hr><span></span> <hr></blockquote>This is exactly the point, To get the same level char on test with the same items and spell levels would take at least double the playtime. why the heck would I want to play 2 months on test to get a char up to my live server's level? I would like to test and /report issues because I want to see the game better -- but have no interest in playing the game 2x as much or losing half of my playtime on the live server to do so. I have a strong want to help make my classes better and fix bugs that affect me on the live servers, I play on the live servers. You choose to play on test. Does that mean that I would test any worse then you? bah I /bugged 6 very severe problems in 10 minutes of playing my char after this last patch. If /copy to test was live those would have been submitted before it went live. Each person has a vested interest in their own class and items. who the heck cares what server you play on -- the test server is there 1st for buffering and finding bugs before they go live, 2nd or even lower on the list is as a playable server.-Waswas<hr></blockquote>So your whole point is that you couldn't do any of that testing unless you had an exact clone of your character?  It is not like your going to actively level your copied character anyhow, and a new character would actually benefit and do things a normal character would really do like xp, adventure and shop.  Your words were: "</span><span><b>Anything </b>to get the code tested by ALL levels and classes before it goes live</span><span>".  Yet you seem unwilling to stand behind those words to do anything except test at your charaters level.  Hey, you never know you just might enjoy playing here with your strong desire to test and find 6 more severe bugs in 10 more minutes.   I know I enjoy it here and feel good finding bugs. </span><div></div><hr></blockquote>YES, that is my point. I can't test my level 38.8 pet unless i am level 38.8. I cant test my robe of lala's proc of gaga unless I have the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] robe on test. Are you saying that I can test my call and my level on test making a necro and leveling to 7 to get off the island? that is not testing the char / class / level. I and others want to be able to test without building another player and matching the live server. I think you need to remember that you are playing on a TEST server not a live server. The goal of the test server is to test -- whatever it takes to facilitate it, wipes, resets, whatever. If you want to be silly and try to make a community on test thats your problem -- that is not the test servers purpose. You see if they allow copy to test players can play on the liver server until there is a patch to test /copy over test for as long as they need to to verify the class/quests/zones work well and then return to the live server to actually play the game. the long term testing is a null issue because SOE does not let test patches sit on test for 3 or 4 weeks they patch, patch wait a few days then live. Heck a lot of the time they end up making code changes between the test update and live update -- which can't be tested. I really can't believe that you guys are trying to stop more testing from happening because you want a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] community on the test server. Please try to understand how insane it sounds when you are playing on a server called test and you are trying to stop people from testing or testing better. Did you really think the experiance on the test server would be like a live server when you created your account out there? -Waswas

[Daffid011]

You might have a point if it wasn't for that fact the the developers want a normal community to live in the test server.  That is exactly what the developers ASKED players to do when the server went live.  That is what they promised people when they asked them to move log.  So despite all that you claim to know about test server, having a lasting community is exactly the point of test.  You stating otherwise just shows that you don't read what is going on with test, so please don't come here after a patch and pretend that you do. Again nothing is stopping you from coming over and testing for an hour a week.  It isn't like the bugs only exist at level 38.8.  As for your thoughts on copied characters, I have personally seen what they do to the testing process and it is not what you claim will happen.  The character move was awesome however as we gained a lot of great people.  I'm sure there are other servers with people who would love to move to a new server, but live under the same misconceptions of what the test server is like you think.  Thats a shame as we could use more people to live here. Safe travels mate, <div></div>

[waswas-f]

<blockquote><hr>Daffid011 wrote:You might have a point if it wasn't for that fact the the developers want a normal community to live in the test server.  That is exactly what the developers ASKED players to do when the server went live.  That is what they promised people when they asked them to move log.  So despite all that you claim to know about test server, having a lasting community is exactly the point of test.  You stating otherwise just shows that you don't read what is going on with test, so please don't come here after a patch and pretend that you do. Again nothing is stopping you from coming over and testing for an hour a week.  It isn't like the bugs only exist at level 38.8.  As for your thoughts on copied characters, I have personally seen what they do to the testing process and it is not what you claim will happen.  The character move was awesome however as we gained a lot of great people.  I'm sure there are other servers with people who would love to move to a new server, but live under the same misconceptions of what the test server is like you think.  Thats a shame as we could use more people to live here. Safe travels mate, <div></div><hr></blockquote>I am sorry I was wrong. You are right. The test server's community is much more important then testing. While your hanging out grinding exp and doing whatever the heck it is that you are doing in your community, some little problems snuck past you -- like 10 - 30% of mobs becoming invauln in zones after the last patch. Pet classes with invauln exploitable pets. Bard classes that could not use their spells. I should just accept these tiny little unnoticeable bugs and gleefully support the wonderful little community you are building on test. Sorry not going to happen. If you guys cant even catch those giant bugs listed maybe you need to move to a live server and take your community with you -- let someone else spend 2 - 4 dedicated hours testing while your shooting the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] with your "im a test server player" community buddies. You obviously are not catching some pretty severe bugs why the heck would you want to be be on test in the first place -- just come to live and report the /bugs like we do after they make it past you.If test was actually performing and catching most of these huge bugs before they went live you would have a lot of leeway with us. The fact of the matter is test as it is setup right now is failing. You may report bugs -- but the size and scope of the ones that have gotten through your "community" in the last 3 or 4 patches is unacceptable. We as players on the live servers depend on test to test. It is failing something must change. -Waswas

[Daffid011]

<span><blockquote><hr>waswas-fng wrote: some little problems snuck past you -- A)like 10 - 30% of mobs becoming invauln in zones after the last patch. B)Pet classes with invauln exploitable pets. C) Bard classes that could not use their spells. -Waswas<hr></blockquote>a) Reported b) Reported and guess what... c) Reported Of course you have no possible way of knowing these things because you are not actually here to see what happens.  Like I said before, come on over and make a new character.  Heck I will make you a set of spells, some armor or something to get you started.  Maybe you can get a hang of what goes on and actually help instead of rampaging over here after the fact to yell at people who are actually doing something to help.  Cheers, </span><div></div>

[Mindgamer]

<P><EM><FONT face="Courier New" color=#66ff33 size=2>The idea of using short term copies to apply sheer numbers to identify bugs in patches works for some problems, but not all. Some problems, because of longer step quests, longer term impacts, etc requires a more stable environment before the problem will probably show up. Until TEST can build sufficient numbers of regular players to identify bugs faster, a second, copy only, testing server is something to talk about. It might be able to identify the easy bugs by sheer numbers. But eventually the most efficient method to find both types of quick bugs, and more difficult issues, is to have a stable, larger, testing community.</FONT></EM></P> <P><EM><FONT face="Courier New" color=#66ff33 size=2>The regular TEST server is getting there, and working continuously to improve the game. For the doubting whiners, try joining /join test.test, cuz we all are out here at da country club, havin phat mobs and lewt drop at our feet for da pickins. Better yet, bring sum cheese wit yer whine, and move yer toon to TEST, and try helpin with the work.</FONT></EM></P> <P><EM><FONT face="Courier New" color=#66ff33 size=2>Agedone, 39th Mystic, TEST</FONT></EM></P> <P><EM><FONT face="Courier New" color=#66ff33 size=2>Guildleader, <Ancient Treachery></FONT></EM> </P>

[Wasc]

I play more on Test than I do on any live server. In games where I had the option to copy my character to a test server, (like City of Heroes) I NEVER played on test.  Why?  It was my "save game."  I'd copy my character to test before making a big decision in-game, like buying an expensive item (Horse) or selecting an unalterable character option (Trait, Tradition, Training), or even exploring a new combat area. If you can copy your character to a test server, login, and run through a totally new zone just to map the thing out... and death doesn't matter at all, since it's test and only a copy of your real guy... then why NOT do that?  Copy the character, go in, map the place as best you can just training every NPC you see the whole way through, and when you die do it again.  Do it a couple of times.  Wonder what's behind that door?  Go look.  Oh, another death, rats.  Like you care, it's test!  You're playing a copy, not the real thing. Now that you know everything there is to know, you can go back to your real character and never need to explore anything ever again. I'm against copying characters to test. <div></div>

[Proudfoot]

<span><blockquote><hr>waswas-fng wrote:<blockquote><hr>Daffid011 wrote:You might have a point if it wasn't for that fact the the developers want a normal community to live in the test server.  That is exactly what the developers ASKED players to do when the server went live.  That is what they promised people when they asked them to move log.  So despite all that you claim to know about test server, having a lasting community is exactly the point of test.  You stating otherwise just shows that you don't read what is going on with test, so please don't come here after a patch and pretend that you do. Again nothing is stopping you from coming over and testing for an hour a week.  It isn't like the bugs only exist at level 38.8.  As for your thoughts on copied characters, I have personally seen what they do to the testing process and it is not what you claim will happen.  The character move was awesome however as we gained a lot of great people.  I'm sure there are other servers with people who would love to move to a new server, but live under the same misconceptions of what the test server is like you think.  Thats a shame as we could use more people to live here. Safe travels mate, <div></div><hr></blockquote>I am sorry I was wrong. You are right. The test server's community is much more important then testing. While your hanging out grinding exp and doing whatever the heck it is that you are doing in your community, some little problems snuck past you -- like 10 - 30% of mobs becoming invauln in zones after the last patch. Pet classes with invauln exploitable pets. Bard classes that could not use their spells. I should just accept these tiny little unnoticeable bugs and gleefully support the wonderful little community you are building on test. Sorry not going to happen. If you guys cant even catch those giant bugs listed maybe you need to move to a live server and take your community with you -- let someone else spend 2 - 4 dedicated hours testing while your shooting the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] with your "im a test server player" community buddies. You obviously are not catching some pretty severe bugs why the heck would you want to be be on test in the first place -- just come to live and report the /bugs like we do after they make it past you.If test was actually performing and catching most of these huge bugs before they went live you would have a lot of leeway with us. The fact of the matter is test as it is setup right now is failing. You may report bugs -- but the size and scope of the ones that have gotten through your "community" in the last 3 or 4 patches is unacceptable. We as players on the live servers depend on test to test. It is failing something must change. -Waswas<hr></blockquote>Ok, enough of your holier-than-thou attitude. 1: Was the immune monster problem known and reported by players of Test prior to patch: Yes 2: Was it fixed when it went live: No So, by your rational, had you, the high and mighty Testies of Testing been on Test with your Testies friends, it <b>would </b>have been fixed because <b>you </b>would have reported it and <b>you </b>are more important than the rest of us who do actually <b>report </b>what we find. Right? There are alot of items that I and my wife have first-hand reported that <b>have not been fixed</b> yet. So blame away, as the guilt falls on you for your poor representation of a human being without common sense. Are there players on Test that don't report and just want a lala land to themselves? Yes. Are there players on Test that report items and assist GM's when asked? Yes. Are there players on Test of various levels to test different content? Yes. Is letting in mass players who <b>won't care about how they treat other players</b> going to make Test a better server? No. History shows that if you allow transfers to a Test server, those who <i>transfered </i>are very rude to anyone who makes that Test server their home. DAoC? Yep CoH? Yep EQ1 does not have active transfers to Test, right? Anarchy Online does not have active transfers to Test, right? These servers have a Test Community because they weren't ravished by outside sources who were intentionally rude because they thought they were <b>better </b>testers.</span><div></div>

[Tatali]

<div></div><span><span><blockquote><hr>Proudfoot wrote:<span></span><span> History shows that if you allow transfers to a Test server, those who <i>transfered </i>are very rude to anyone who makes that Test server their home.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote></span>It goes both ways too. There have been quite a number of Test server players I encountered in EQlive that were elitist snobs who seemed to feel their choice of server made them better than the "proddies" or "proggies" or whatever the term is. As I said earlier, I don't think flooding a server set up the way Test is would be in the best intest because of the mutual anomosity they tend to feel toward each other, however, I do think a testing server that allows copy characters <i>would </i>be a great benifit.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Tataline on <span class=date_text>03-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:03 PM</span>

[waswas-f]

<div></div><p>I really do apologize for sounding so disgruntled against test server players.  If those issues were /bugged before the patch went live then I owe everyone on test an apology.  I will point out though from a live server players perspective -- when we see issues like that make it past test with no notice given on the boards at all by test players before it goes live it is an easy assumption that they were not found (nor reported).  SOE sure as heck does not note that they were found but not fixed before they pushed the code live.  It may help a little if you can try to post issues that you are finding on test.  This does two things:  It shows live players where the issues really exist (in this case SOE knew about an issue but still pushed code), and it lets SOE know that this info is public and players will rightfully be upset at SOE rather then have bad feelings directed at you.</p><p>Please accept my apology.</p><p>-Waswas</p>

[Evadne]

<div></div>On Test we have frequent interaction with the dev team and the QA team,. Frequent requests to join channels for this bug subject or that subject. MOST of the feed back they get from testers is via /bug and /feedback as well as the in game interactions.  We also email.  The forum is the last place they look.  It has been said to us many times before NOT to rely on the forums to communicate with the dev team regarding bugs. This particular Forum section In Testing is not the venue that testers use.  When it was created there was a hope that it would be a tool that players on Test could use to communicate to the Dev Team and share what they were finding with all players. It rapidly turned into a almost useless tool for that purpose.  So, if you don't see what we have bugged and reported here....don't assume it isn't being caught by us.  You can't see what we report and discuss, so assume the best. Edit: Apology accepted. Thank you Waswas. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Evadne on <span class=date_text>03-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:11 PM</span>

[Kwoung]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ITZBITZ wrote:<BR>Face it SOE, most players are NOT going to level a toon on test. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Correct, and no amount of incentives will get them too.. that is a fact of MMOG's. Most players have absolutely zero interest in helping test no matter what.<BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ITZBITZ wrote:<BR>Many of the players are there just to find out about things in advance and prepare their main for the request (price changes on NPC, etc.).<BR><BR>If we could COPY a character to test (leaving our character on the original server for us to continue to play).... <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Actually, many are not on Test to find out things ahead of time.. although that is pretty much all that would be happening if they allowed copies... as proven in ever game that allows copies.<BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ITZBITZ wrote:<BR>Just think if this were on test, you could have avoided angering most of your player base as you have done with this patch. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>No, the stuff still wouldn't be fixed, bugs would still go live.. the only difference wuld be whos fault it would be. The fault would lay with the general playerbase and their copies for not finding the bugs. (which is funny, since many/most of the bugs are found already, they just do not get fixed)<BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ITZBITZ wrote:<BR>So what do you think Sony, is it time to step up and make your testing server something of value to those of us that actually play the game?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>How about you step up to the plate.. roll up a char on Test and prove that you would actually test something... there is tons of stuff a level 10 (takes all of 30 minutes to reach) can test. Don't say you don't have the time, well because, how would you suddenly have the time if copies were allowed? As a matter of fact, I think I saw the most recent dev request plainly state that there is a huge experiement coming to Test that needs tested by low levels and folks should roll some up... but it seems even that has not prompted anyone to roll up a char that I can see.. even you mentioned how desolate the server still is. It all just goes to show, that although there is a very high interest in complaining about the patches, there is very little interest in actually doing something about them.</P><p>Message Edited by Kwoung on <span class=date_text>03-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:53 PM</span>

[Zerofault]

<P>Tadok, the thing is, SOOO much is not being fixed or caught before it goes live and people are seriously getting sick of it.  I honestly don't know what the best action to take is but something has to be done.  I still have a ton of fun playing at 50 pretty much raiding full time, though i'm tired of all the seriously horrible drops, even from Master chests and the broken encounters.  Maybe since the test server already has a community, they could create test server B and have that be a copy to test server.  I know for one I could care less about getting the strats down first.  My main ERK is the fact that it appears they aren't even testing the content at all.  These bugs are seriously gameplay altering.  Something drastic has to take effect.  </P> <P> </P> <P>Lodoz - Nektulos - Archons</P>

[Evadne]

As Kwoung pointed out, if you want to help Test there is some very new code on test that needs lower level testing.  If you would have time to help out with a copy you should have time to roll up a toon and help this way.  But what I sense is people don't want to help with what SOE needs, they want to dictate to SOE in an ultimatum that they wont test unless..... ~Eva <div></div>

[Zerofault]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Evadne wrote:<BR>As Kwoung pointed out, if you want to help Test there is some very new code on test that needs lower level testing.  If you would have time to help out with a copy you should have time to roll up a toon and help this way.  <BR><BR>But what I sense is people don't want to help with what SOE needs, they want to dictate to SOE in an ultimatum that they wont test unless.....<BR><BR><BR>~Eva<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The thing is, might sound a bit self centered, but I could care less about lvl 1 - 49 now.  I care about lvl 50 and that is what i want fixed.  Others can worry about the 1-49, more power to them.  I know you will disagree, but I know we have different play styles, and there is absolutely no excuse for how bad some things are at lvl 50.  I do enjoy playing this game, but I don't see the point in re-rolling on test and only getting the patch 2 days in advance and then kicked to the live server.  That is the fault with test atm.  Testing for major patches should at least take a week or two.  Minor patches, 4 - 7 days should be fine unless a major glitch is found where there is a hotfix and more testing.</P> <P> </P> <P>Lodoz</P>

[Eelyen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> waswas-fng wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Daffid011 wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ITZBITZ wrote:<BR>Some people seem to think it's a good idea, and I think it would be best if it worked like this:<BR><BR>Visit Forum: Test Server Update Notes Spotted<BR>Login to Game: Aimelia/Kithicor<BR>/copytotest<BR>Logout, Login to Test as Aimelia/Test<BR>Go do all the things I normally do in an evening and see how it works out -- cast spells, examine stats, fight mobs, hit the market, try the e-mail system, chat with friends, etc. Get my group to come over and we go do an quick xp group in Zek/whatever to test combat. Okay? Done? wow, a master chest dropped a master I of uberness - big deal, it's a test -- too bad it's not on Kith.<BR>Logout, Login to Kith and resume life -- delete test character (or have it auto purged after next live update, whatever)<BR><BR>Rinse. Repeat.<BR><BR>I have no qualms about spending an hour or two before the Live Update if it means identifying game-breaking things before they hit production. As long as I don't have to level a toon to do it. <BR><BR>I think the idea of an entire server copy to a new test server is a great one. Make it a random drawing or a rotating cycle and say, "Befallen, come on down, your the next server copied to test for 48 hours of testing before the next live update!"<BR><BR><B>Anything </B>to get the code tested by ALL levels and classes before it goes live. <BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>So what is stopping you from doing that now?  Load up the test client, make a new character, spend an hour to get off newbie island.  Then check out combat, check out the email system, chat with friends, cast spells, hit the market, etc.  You can do all of what you said without having a copied character.  <BR><BR>The fact is talk is cheap and claiming all this testing can be done by someone "</SPAN><SPAN>spending an hour or two before the Live Update" just isn't realisitic.  It will however drive away the current testers and leave a bigger void for copies to fill.  <BR><BR>Saying "</SPAN><SPAN><B>Anything </B>to get the code tested by ALL levels and classes before it goes live"</SPAN><SPAN> and then not backing that up by actually doing anything, let alone putting restrictions on why you won't, really makes your conviction questionable don't you think? <BR><BR>If I sound short, I appologize, but it gets really old listening to people talk about how they would save the masses by popping over for an hour.  It just doesn't work that way on a mass scale, sorry.  <BR></SPAN><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>This is exactly the point, To get the same level char on test with the same items and spell levels would take at least double the playtime. why the heck would I want to play 2 months on test to get a char up to my live server's level? I would like to test and /report issues because I want to see the game better -- but have no interest in playing the game 2x as much or losing half of my playtime on the live server to do so. I have a strong want to help make my classes better and fix bugs that affect me on the live servers, I play on the live servers. You choose to play on test. Does that mean that I would test any worse then you? bah I /bugged 6 very severe problems in 10 minutes of playing my char after this last patch. If /copy to test was live those would have been submitted before it went live. Each person has a vested interest in their own class and items. who the heck cares what server you play on -- the test server is there 1st for buffering and finding bugs before they go live, 2nd or even lower on the list is as a playable server.<BR><BR>-Waswas<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Because you only want to test things that might effect you.  You wouldn't test the hundreds of other things a dedicated test server community tests.  Hence the copy idea is flawed.  Very Very few people would do all of the testing the current test server community does. <BR>

[Eelyen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> waswas-fng wrote:<BR> <P>I really do apologize for sounding so disgruntled against test server players.  If those issues were /bugged before the patch went live then I owe everyone on test an apology.  I will point out though from a live server players perspective -- when we see issues like that make it past test with no notice given on the boards at all by test players before it goes live it is an easy assumption that they were not found (nor reported).  SOE sure as heck does not note that they were found but not fixed before they pushed the code live.  It may help a little if you can try to post issues that you are finding on test.  This does two things:  It shows live players where the issues really exist (in this case SOE knew about an issue but still pushed code), and it lets SOE know that this info is public and players will rightfully be upset at SOE rather then have bad feelings directed at you.<BR><BR></P> <P>Please accept my apology.</P> <P><BR>-Waswas</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Our job as testers doesn't state anywhere we have to post to the Live players about any issues we find.  But also understand the fact that some issues do get reported but since they are part of a package update.  If they are considered "minor" by SoE then they may allow it through and fix it in the next update.  I did see the invunerable mobs.  But I saw like 1 in EL, 1 in FG, etc.  So honestly, it wasn't a "major" issue.  Now that was just from my experience.  If they decided to upgrade the current patch, then it might of pushed patching a bigger issue on live off.  It's the way software development can work.  This is just theory, as part of their file versioning system.  This just may be how they handle it sometimes.  </P> <P>But the point is, having copied characters over to test wouldn't have really caught much more.  Sure a level 45 Wizard copy might be able to catch a new bug with "their" spell.  But would they actively spend their time to check the things we get updated on a almost NIGHTLY basis.  </P> <P>The one thing I do know is that every tester I've spoken to about the subject, says they would no longer want to play on the Test server should copies be allowed to come to test all the time.  It would destroy the test server community.  And then you would lose the daily players who encounter all the little stuff beyond just what goes on with your class.  Which most copies would only test that.  So in essense you may catch a few more class specific issues, but alot of little bugs would be missed.  And again, alot of issues are bugged and reported.  But they don't always get fixed before they go live.<BR></P>

[Naughtesn]

<P>I am getting real tired of the testers who somehow think that testing quality would go down by haveing copied players on test.  More testers, if even for an hour, could only help.  The claims that these folks would only log on occasionally and test certain things really only ensures that their precious community stays intact.  (Honestly, "testies", your tone really makes us wonder what your primary reason for living on test server is....)</P> <P>And, as another poster suggested, why NOT post bugs on the forums...especially ones that are game-altering.  You might get these calls for a change halted a bit if we actually saw that stuff was being reported.  I'd rather see you posting bugs onthe forums rather than posting here defending your community and testing abilities.</P> <P>I'm sure many of you test, /bug, and /feedback until you are blue inthe face.  I for one would like to see evidence that is happening, so I, and the live-player base, can direct our frustration to a more well-deserved target: the development team that is releasing game-altering bugs to the live servers.</P> <P>I am also equally sure some holier-than-thou person will step forward and say something like, "I'm not accountable to anyone, and don't tell me I shoudl post bugs..." - yadda yadda...  I'm sure these scores of people might stop calling for a change to the methodology, and you could get back to work and stop defending yourselves here.</P> <P>The development team - much to your chagrin I'm sure - is open to a change if things aren't working well.  Well - from a live server perspective - things are NOT going well.</P> <P>SO deal with the chatter about copying - debate is good - change is good - reporting major bugs on forums would also be good cuz if you aren't then many more people will think you are not doing a good job.  Protect your community - communicate with live server folk - get us off your backs.</P>

[Jalwyn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Evadne wrote:<BR>There are copies to test already. What? Surprised? It wasn't you. It already has been done. And guess what? It didnt help. Because not everything can be caught. And some things are changed that you won't like.  Bugs will be in this game.  They will go live. Some changes you will like....and some you won't.  There was no catastrophe.  <BR><BR>I am not talking about the transfers. I am talking about copies.<BR><BR>So, your idea was tried before this patch......<BR><BR>So much for your idea.<BR><BR>~Eva<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yes, it wasn't me.  All they offered for my server was a transfer, and I'm sorry but I'm not going to transfer over my level 50 or even my 26.  Maybe if they let everyone that wanted to help on test copy a character over and not just some servers there would be more people testing on the test server. I've made a character there but it's not easy to do a lot of the new content when there's so few people logged in and most of it is for level 30-50 anyway.

[Evadne]

<span><blockquote><hr>Naughtesnec wrote: <p>The development team - much to your chagrin I'm sure - is open to a change if things aren't working well.  Well - from a live server perspective - things are NOT going well.</p> <p> </p><hr></blockquote>I have a group of friends who play  on a regular server, in the higher level game.  They don't see what all this fuss is about and do not agree that "things are NOT going well."  Chances are there are far fewer people who think copies will make a difference than you, the vocal minority have any clue about. I am a minority in defending test from people such as yourself....perhaps because Test has a relatively small population, not because your idea has any merit. ~Eva</span><div></div>

[Eelyen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Naughtesnec wrote:<BR> <P>I am getting real tired of the testers who somehow think that testing quality would go down by haveing copied players on test.  More testers, if even for an hour, could only help.  The claims that these folks would only log on occasionally and test certain things really only ensures that their precious community stays intact.  (Honestly, "testies", your tone really makes us wonder what your primary reason for living on test server is....)</P> <P>And, as another poster suggested, why NOT post bugs on the forums...especially ones that are game-altering.  You might get these calls for a change halted a bit if we actually saw that stuff was being reported.  I'd rather see you posting bugs onthe forums rather than posting here defending your community and testing abilities.</P> <P>I'm sure many of you test, /bug, and /feedback until you are blue inthe face.  I for one would like to see evidence that is happening, so I, and the live-player base, can direct our frustration to a more well-deserved target: the development team that is releasing game-altering bugs to the live servers.</P> <P>I am also equally sure some holier-than-thou person will step forward and say something like, "I'm not accountable to anyone, and don't tell me I shoudl post bugs..." - yadda yadda...  I'm sure these scores of people might stop calling for a change to the methodology, and you could get back to work and stop defending yourselves here.</P> <P>The development team - much to your chagrin I'm sure - is open to a change if things aren't working well.  Well - from a live server perspective - things are NOT going well.</P> <P>SO deal with the chatter about copying - debate is good - change is good - reporting major bugs on forums would also be good cuz if you aren't then many more people will think you are not doing a good job.  Protect your community - communicate with live server folk - get us off your backs.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Again, why do I have to do 2 writeups for every bug, just to prove to others that we are doing the bug reports.  If I want to post a bug, I post it in the private testers forum.  As not everything that is put on test is sent to the live servers.   </P> <P>Our purpose for arguing these "copy idea" is to defend our community.  We do the best we can.  And if copies are allowed to test then our community and the work we put into will be destroyed.  </P> <P>Period.</P><p>Message Edited by Eelyen on <span class=date_text>03-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:18 PM</span>

[Tadok]

<P>I know your pain Lodoz. We deal with the same frustrations as you do when it come to content, bugs, drops, and the like. I understand that you want the content you are directly involved with tested as well as possible. The difference is I see it being tested. We /bug everything. We /feedback about everything we can think of to try and make the game better. We have no control over what the devs do with those reports. Most of what people are complaining about we did /bug. I have read most of the forums about bugs and complaints and I can recall every discussion on the test server about those bugs. We cant do more than let them know what we find.</P> <P>As for there being more testers for even just an hours, how much help do you think you will be for that hour? When I find a bug I want to know that I am going to be making a /bug report that helps them fix the problem. That means going over every bit of information I have so that I can provide them all of the factors that may have caused that bug. That means I may have to spend time attempting to recreate the bug, even waiting out for a rare spawn again so I can see if it just happened once or if it happens again. That could take hours. So what would be the point of just having a character that only plays for an hour at a time.</P> <DIV>My point of all of this is not to say we dont need more people helping out with testing. We could use thousands of people testing. But truly testing the game requires that you put forth the time and effort to test. I dont see that people who want the fast and easy method of getting a level "X" character on the test server being the kind of people who are willing to put forth the time and effort to actualy test.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Labb</DIV>

[Eelyen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tadok wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My point of all of this is not to say we dont need more people helping out with testing. We could use thousands of people testing. But truly testing the game requires that you put forth the time and effort to test. I dont see that people who want the fast and easy method of getting a level "X" character on the test server being the kind of people who are willing to put forth the time and effort to actualy test.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Labb</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Agreed.</DIV>

[Daffid011]

<span><blockquote><hr>Naughtesnec wrote:<p>I am getting real tired of the testers who somehow think that testing quality would go down by haveing copied players on test.  More testers, if even for an hour, could only help.  The claims that these folks would only log on occasionally and test certain things really only ensures that their precious community stays intact.  (Honestly, "testies", your tone really makes us wonder what your primary reason for living on test server is....)</p><hr></blockquote>Well let me explain it to you then.  There are people here who have EXPERIENCED exactly what you are saying.  You are just saying the same exact thing other people said before.  Your base assumption is that there will be more people, which has been shown in past examples to be false.  Populations went down.  Why?  Two reasons: the full time testers did not want to play in a cloning play ground, they are players after all.  Secondly, the copies did not play as much as so many people claimed they would.  The end result is population and testing went DOWN.  So, until you can say something to the contrary, why are you so confindent that there will be more players with copies? <span><blockquote><hr>Naughtesnec wrote: <p>And, as another poster suggested, why NOT post bugs on the forums...especially ones that are game-altering.  You might get these calls for a change halted a bit if we actually saw that stuff was being reported.  I'd rather see you posting bugs onthe forums rather than posting here defending your community and testing abilities.</p> <p>I'm sure many of you test, /bug, and /feedback until you are blue inthe face.  I for one would like to see evidence that is happening, so I, and the live-player base, can direct our frustration to a more well-deserved target: the development team that is releasing game-altering bugs to the live servers.</p><hr></blockquote></span>I am not here to give you or any other player some form of watchdog position over the developers.  I owe you NOTHING, not one [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] word of what is right or wrong.  If you crave justification to whine then get off your duff and get find out yourself.  What I do, I do to help.  Others, like yourself, are free to sit on the sidelines and complain all you what.  My feeding you bug reports does not help the testing process one bit.  Do you honestly think that turning testers into some sort of forum tattlers is really a productive solution to helping the test process?   You will excuse me if I think you have no clue how to really help here with ideas like this.  </span><div></div>

[Viroxi]

<DIV>Well, here's my humble opinion. There shouldn't BE player testing at all. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First and foremost we are talking about a billion-dollar company here..BILLION. Don't believe me? Do the math of all the games SOE has produced x subscription and initial sales since their inception. Any company making anything for anyone that makes that much money should have a staff of in-house full-time testers. There should be a large building sort of like a techsupport call station only with testers that are trained on what to look for in-game, handed out organized assignments in groups of six (or 12 or 24 if raid) and told to go here, do this use all available skillsets, notate errors and bugs, report to supervisor....who reports to developer/s responsible for said content...rinse and repeat. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The "testing community" has a chip on it's shoulder and feels like they are doing the rest of us a favor..........and they are. They are doing for free what SOE should be paying someone to do period. There aren't enough of them and there is no way they can catch everything because it's a slipshod system where these players go and explore content seperately (from other groups) in a random fashion (by nature not by fault) and do their best to report what they find. In the example above it is someone's JOB  to find these errors, each bit of content is explored thoroughly, and while something may STILL slip through, the chances of so many issues showing up at once and some on grand scale are minimalized. I work in real life for a company that does not make nearly the gross profit of SOE. We have a very strict testing system in place.... development, development testing, the "pool" testing (this would be the fictional bunch of game testers that don't exist for SOE) ..these "pool" testers ONLY job at my company is to test what comes down the pipeline to them..all day every day. Then , after pool testing it goes back to development and through the entire cycle again, until it's clean. Then it goes into the live environment. IF something is discovered live that wasn't caught in testing, the product is pulled until it goes through the entire cycle again, focusing not only on the errors found , but also searching for ripples (what we term those effects that an error causes to other areas of the product) and so on and so forth. Now, what we do is basically stat/risk software....but regardless of the type of program this sort of testing alleviates many of these issues.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The thing is, everything I just wrote matters not, because SOE is not going to implement this, though they could fiscally do so, and from a good business practice standpoint , SHOULD do so. Why? Because they haven't had to do it yet, and they are a billion dollar company...lol. In the end this is a game, and not viewed like other products in the marketplace. Is that right? No, but it just is. As games continue to become million and billion dollar enterprises, someday I'm sure they will be viewed differently (from the makers standpoint) but until then it's buyer beware. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So in the end our best alternative imo is to thank and respect our player based testers, they are in fact doing us a favor ...spending their time on characters for the good of the game and community. There are some testers that are a bit "holier than thou" but if that's the price I have to pay for someone to do a job for free, that I wouldn't do unless I was being paid to...then I say so be it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hug a tester.....fix a bug.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>p.s. to the poster that said earlier in this thread that the copy system was a bad idea (and yeah I think it is...) because you might get an uber piece of loot on test and subsequently could not take that with you back to your live server...please seek help immediately. That has got to be the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard in my entire life. YOU are the reason copy toons are a bad idea. Test people are a mostly close-knit group devoted to finding bugs, and helping the game...not helping themselves to loot. Are you there to help the game if you are worried about what might drop off that master chest that you can't now take back and be ubah l33t on your reg server? LOL PUUUUHHHH LEASEEEEEE. </DIV><p>Message Edited by Viroxian on <span class=date_text>03-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:57 AM</span>

[Naughtesn]

<P>Thanks to the testies that didn't let me down with their remarks...</P> <P>Just because you SAY copies won't work in this game (the other MMOs you and others have mentioned nothwithstanding) doesn't mean it wouldn't work in this game.</P> <P>IF you did post bug reports it WOULD shift accountablility to its appropriate targets.</P> <P>If you DONT a great majority of people on live sill still think you are doing a half-[Removed for Content] job whether intentionally or by virtue of the fact you don't have the population in numbers or in levels to appropriately test.</P> <P>If enough noise is made, the development team MIGHT look at this copy (or other change) which could threaten your precious server environment.</P> <P>Save your environment, alert the general population to game changing bugs, quiet the calls for changes to the test server population, and generate some momentum to have things stay on test longer until they are fixed.   (As noted earlier, you could use the time you are posting in defense here - to post bugs.)</P> <P>Honestly, if you guys actually cared about the live server experience (at least if I were in your shoes), you would alert people - generate some momentum to get these fixed before live.</P>

[Daffid011]

<span><blockquote><hr>Naughtesnec wrote: <p>Just because you SAY copies won't work in this game (the other MMOs you and others have mentioned nothwithstanding) doesn't mean it wouldn't work in this game.</p><div></div><hr></blockquote>Then please feel free to explain exactly how it will help.  Don't speculate please, put some fine points on it if you are just that sure it will help.  Otherwise I stand by what has actually happened before.  (nothing like ignoring fact is there?) To be frank, I really don't care what the live servers think.  </span><div></div>

[SkinnyFats_EQ2]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eelyen wrote:<BR> <P>I did see the invunerable mobs.  But I saw like 1 in EL, 1 in FG, etc.  So honestly, it wasn't a "major" issue.  Now that was just from my experience. <BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>A perfect example showing that there aren't nearly enough people on test.  I saw invulnerable mobs everywhere the very next day on live. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>Daffid011 wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR>Well let me explain it to you then.  There are people here who have EXPERIENCED exactly what you are saying.  You are just saying the same exact thing other people said before.  Your base assumption is that there will be more people, which has been shown in past examples to be false.  Populations went down.  Why?  Two reasons: the full time testers did not want to play in a cloning play ground, they are players after all.  Secondly, the copies did not play as much as so many people claimed they would.  The end result is population and testing went DOWN. <BR><BR>So, until you can say something to the contrary, why are you so confindent that there will be more players with copies?<BR><BR></DIV><SPAN> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR>Fine, then create another test server.  Leave the current test server community alone, and allow live players to copy chars to the new test server, thereby testing their character specific concerns without interfering with the ongoing test community.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV><p>Message Edited by SkinnyFats on <span class=date_text>03-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:22 PM</span>

[SavinDwa]

<DIV>I'm always amazed by these types of posts... I understand why the poster made the comment.  I even understand where some of the replies are coming from.  But .. come on people ... at least think through the suggestion one more step:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) if SOE allowed everyone who wanted to to make a copy of a character onto test then whenever the main systems were down the test system would crash through having 10x the load of a normal server.  There could be a solution to this?? But is it worth the effort?  They could have copied character set up in such a way that if the server they were copied from is down then this character is not allowe on test either.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) Another posted suggested they hire QA staff.  Come on.. think about it.  This isn't a little proggram with a limited number of actions and interactions between users.  It would be like asking Greenspan to hire QA staff to test out his changes in interest rates before allowing them to go live in the economy [Ok, I'm exagerating].  To really have a full test would require at least 3,000-5,000 people doing random stuff and pretending they are really playing the game in a fashion that a normal server would do.  lets say these people are cheap -- only cost $35k per year.  So 3,000 of them would cost about $100 million per year.  We have about 400k subscribers and we would have to pay for this QA ... so that means we each would pay an extra $250 per year to have this QA done -- and we would still find new things anyway becuase the QA group would forget to hire people who never learn how to play the game <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3) The test environment does not have a normal economy for a lot of reasons and hence really doesn't test everything -- that is why stuff gets through to the live servers.  OK.. the other reason is they sometimes rush a buggy release through for reasons I still don't quite understand.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4) The idea of allowing people to start on test with higher level fully equipped characters is not a bad one -- except it would result in less testing at the low end .. and be very tempting for people who don't want to level their characters on live servers.  There is a solution ....rate people bugs reports and posts on the feedback site.  Promote people to "tester status" based on the quality of the feedback [and the amount].  Then only allow these people to creta specialy fully equipped characters.</DIV>

[Viroxi]

<DIV>SavinDwarf, </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok first let me address your comment about "little" programs. The programs that I described my company having tested in the exact manner I suggested are not little my friend. I'm not sure if you understand risk assesment and statistical anaylysis, but I assure you the amount of code we are talking about is enormous. It is every bit as complicated as an MMO, AND it is constantly evolving. We aren't talking about one program here, and taking some away, adding  some another time, we are talking about programs going through write, test, test pool (fake live) , and live on a daily basis. So your comment about how huge EQ2 is in comparison holds no water. If you don't believe me, write a SIMPLE program based on 3 dice with 6 sides and tell me how many lines of code you come up with to generate every possible outcome.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Second, I'm not sure where you pulled 3-5k people out of...a hat? We aren't talking about stress testing here. I would say closer to 1-200 people on a server that test the new content as it comes out would suffice nicely. Make sure to divide them up by class and give them say ...a week (arbitrary) to run through new content. Yeah, it can be done...easily. I had 35 people working for me in the real life example described above, and they managed just fine on software that was every bit as code-heavy and complicated. (if not more in some instances). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Third, let's just say your numbers WERE what was needed, why did you just pass that cost on to us..the consumer? I stated in my first response that the gross and net profit of SOE clearly shows that they could spend more money on QA. They don't HAVE to, but they could. They don't have to because the game industry as a whole isn't viewed like other consumer products in the marketplace...and until that changes they won't. (this I also stated) </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So yeah, I said they should create a QA department, and I KNOW they COULD create one, but I also said it wouldn't happen. Reason being , people like you whose automatic response is..."it would cost them too much" when you have failed to look at their gross sales, net profit, profit sharing ventures (can you say /pizza) and basically people who still think of this as a "game company".  Trust me, financially it's no game, and until the consumer and marketplace put some pressure on them to conduct themselves more like a business, and less like they are doing us a favor that won't change.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All that being said I am not overly upset about all this, just have an opinion is all. I'll continue to play EQ2 regardless, and I'm not one of the crazies that fly off the handle every time the servers come down. So I guess I too am part of the problem....<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> cause I'll never leave...at least not till EQ3.</DIV>

[Eelyen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SkinnyFats wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eelyen wrote:<BR> <P>I did see the invunerable mobs.  But I saw like 1 in EL, 1 in FG, etc.  So honestly, it wasn't a "major" issue.  Now that was just from my experience. <BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>A perfect example showing that there aren't nearly enough people on test.  I saw invulnerable mobs everywhere the very next day on live. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>That was just 1 players experience on test.  I'm sure others noticed stuff.  But it doesn't matter if it was 2 mobs or 20 mobs.  Whatever caused the issue for 1 mob to become invunarable is the same reason 20 mobs became invunarble.  <STRONG>The bug was reported.</STRONG>  Probably by multiple people.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>Daffid011 wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR>Well let me explain it to you then.  There are people here who have EXPERIENCED exactly what you are saying.  You are just saying the same exact thing other people said before.  Your base assumption is that there will be more people, which has been shown in past examples to be false.  Populations went down.  Why?  Two reasons: the full time testers did not want to play in a cloning play ground, they are players after all.  Secondly, the copies did not play as much as so many people claimed they would.  The end result is population and testing went DOWN. <BR><BR>So, until you can say something to the contrary, why are you so confindent that there will be more players with copies?<BR><BR></DIV><SPAN> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR>Fine, then create another test server.  Leave the current test server community alone, and allow live players to copy chars to the new test server, thereby testing their character specific concerns without interfering with the ongoing test community.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Lets also understand the fact that it costs alot of money to have a 3rd test server running.  Cause yes, I'm quite sure SoE has an internal testing server.  As I've spoken to devs a little bit about in house testing.  Adding a 3rd server may not exactly be a finacially appealing thought to SoE.  Oh sure they "could" fund it most likely.  But you'd be surprised how much of your monthly payments go to server cost, etc.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>It's not a bad idea, but I wouldn't get your hopes up.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV> <P>Message Edited by SkinnyFats on <SPAN class=date_text>03-30-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:22 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>