Artisan class concept dead with aggro mobs added to safe harvest areas

[sidgb]

<DIV>Now that SoE has added aggro mobs to almost all T3 & T4 harvest areas low adv lvl artisans can no longer harvest. What small safe areas that were left are now completely overrun and picked clean so those are not an option either.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To be able to safely harvest you have to be so high a level that if you could make something from what you could safely harvest it would be too low a level for you to even use. I guess tradeskilling is for equiping my low level twinks now.</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text>BTW SoE, you missed messing up Three Toes Valley. Be sure to make the time to completely mess things up.</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by sidgb on <span class=date_text>03-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:00 PM</span>

[Rijacki]

If they really were trying to "mess up" the artisans who self harvest, there were far easier ways to go about it (i.e. limiting access only based on adventuring level). However, if they were trying to build some sort of interdependancy between tradeskillers and adventurers, then they failed miserably since most adventurers won't buy squat from tradeskillers (mostly because crafted stuff is generally inferior to common drop and easy quest stuff or even vendor bought) but have a mis-guided notion that all tradeskillers are exceptionally wealthy and so can pay ludicrious amounts for the harvests they can get quite easily.Let's see if adventurers who harvest are smart enough to figure out that the more they charge for harvests, like fayberries, the more expensive the goods made from them will be. They're arguement, though, will be that they have to charge high to afford high prices. Who will give first.....?

[Qwindar]

<blockquote><hr>Rijacki wrote:If they really were trying to "mess up" the artisans who self harvest, there were far easier ways to go about it (i.e. limiting access only based on adventuring level). However, if they were trying to build some sort of interdependancy between tradeskillers and adventurers, then they failed miserably since most adventurers won't buy squat from tradeskillers (mostly because crafted stuff is generally inferior to common drop and easy quest stuff or even vendor bought) but have a mis-guided notion that all tradeskillers are exceptionally wealthy and so can pay ludicrious amounts for the harvests they can get quite easily.Let's see if adventurers who harvest are smart enough to figure out that the more they charge for harvests, like fayberries, the more expensive the goods made from them will be. They're arguement, though, will be that they have to charge high to afford high prices. Who will give first.....?<hr></blockquote>I'm sorry, but that's a load of crap. I'm a 28 guardian and a 24 woodworker. I can harvest for hours, when I go to put it on my vendor mule, almsot everything is selling for 1cp. How much lower do you want it to go? Free? Maybe look you up to give it to you, I'll travel as well? After pricing all that, I look for food or drink, thinking it's got to be cheaper now, nope, same price or more expensive. Sure, I understand fuel is more expensive, now that they fixed the fuel bug, but with crafting stuff selling for 1cp, you'd think the crafters could lower it a bit. I wrote out a much longer response to this, but I deleted the rest of it simply because it's Friday and it's 5 o'clock somewhere, no need getting more frustrated with people like this.

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I have to agree to the above poster - at least for Lucan server, Qeynos economy<BR><BR>Apart from drink components you can find on the broker for about 10 pages of tier3 stuff ranging from 1-10 cp, especially clusters, wood and (mostly useless) alchemy stuff</P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Jackkal]

<blockquote><hr>Qwindar wrote:I'm sorry, but that's a load of crap. I'm a 28 guardian and a 24 woodworker. I can harvest for hours, when I go to put it on my vendor mule, almsot everything is selling for 1cp. How much lower do you want it to go? Free? Maybe look you up to give it to you, I'll travel as well? After pricing all that, I look for food or drink, thinking it's got to be cheaper now, nope, same price or more expensive. Sure, I understand fuel is more expensive, now that they fixed the fuel bug, but with crafting stuff selling for 1cp, you'd think the crafters could lower it a bit. I wrote out a much longer response to this, but I deleted the rest of it simply because it's Friday and it's 5 o'clock somewhere, no need getting more frustrated with people like this.<hr></blockquote>The mighty T3 crafter speaks!Sorry bub, you dont know squat what your talking about. Come back and post after you hit Tier 4 artisan and your adventure level is still T2 or T3.

[Rijacki]

<blockquote><hr>Qwindar wrote:<blockquote><hr>Rijacki wrote:If they really were trying to "mess up" the artisans who self harvest, there were far easier ways to go about it (i.e. limiting access only based on adventuring level). However, if they were trying to build some sort of interdependancy between tradeskillers and adventurers, then they failed miserably since most adventurers won't buy squat from tradeskillers (mostly because crafted stuff is generally inferior to common drop and easy quest stuff or even vendor bought) but have a mis-guided notion that all tradeskillers are exceptionally wealthy and so can pay ludicrious amounts for the harvests they can get quite easily.Let's see if adventurers who harvest are smart enough to figure out that the more they charge for harvests, like fayberries, the more expensive the goods made from them will be. They're arguement, though, will be that they have to charge high to afford high prices. Who will give first.....?<hr></blockquote>I'm sorry, but that's a load of crap. I'm a 28 guardian and a 24 woodworker. I can harvest for hours, when I go to put it on my vendor mule, almsot everything is selling for 1cp. How much lower do you want it to go? Free? Maybe look you up to give it to you, I'll travel as well? After pricing all that, I look for food or drink, thinking it's got to be cheaper now, nope, same price or more expensive. Sure, I understand fuel is more expensive, now that they fixed the fuel bug, but with crafting stuff selling for 1cp, you'd think the crafters could lower it a bit. I wrote out a much longer response to this, but I deleted the rest of it simply because it's Friday and it's 5 o'clock somewhere, no need getting more frustrated with people like this.<hr></blockquote>You sell Fayberries for 1c??? (there was a reason I used that one as my example.. it's commonly priced at 5-10s each).Oh.. and until you hit T4 and T5 for crafting while you are still 27 or even less, then you really have no room to talk about the inability for those with higher crafting and lower adventuring to get stuff reasonably. For the low level adventurers, harvesting in high level places really isn't an option. Not Thundering Steppes (and the reason you put most of your harvests up at 1c is because too many others have them at 1c), but Enchanted Lands, Zek, Rivervale, Feerott, Everfrost, etc.The prices for harvests have come down (at least root, wood, rock, ore, and mushroom stuff), but it sure isn't 1c. When I hit 40 in alchemy, all of those were being sold for 2-3g each. As more people started reaching their 40s and were harvesting, prices did come down. Before the patch previous to this one, the one giving everyone the ability to make refines and interims, the "good" price for ashen root was 50s each. After that patch it dropped down to a low of 1s each. Now it's hovering at 5-10s each. The rest seem to have stabalised at 1-2s each, even the mushroom bits. I don't buy or sell T5 food harvests but I am sure they are waaaaaaay higher (especially dink ones) based on the pricing of fayberries in T3.

[Valhu]

<DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV>I just cannot picture a master craftsman putting down his tools to venture out into the deep forests looking for some commonly available items.... if you really want to roleplay a Artisan only.... then stay in your TS instance and be an artist..... the rest of us who do both will be just fine still.  Everyone makes tradoffs for what they want to do... and I really dont want to see lvl 10 characters in T4 zones... whether you used to be able to do it not (sorry that they got rid of the grey out exploit - NOT).</DIV><p>Message Edited by Valhuru on <span class=date_text>03-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:00 PM</span>

[Qwindar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jackkal wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Qwindar wrote:<BR><BR><BR>I'm sorry, but that's a load of crap. I'm a 28 guardian and a 24 woodworker. I can harvest for hours, when I go to put it on my vendor mule, almsot everything is selling for 1cp. How much lower do you want it to go? Free? Maybe look you up to give it to you, I'll travel as well? After pricing all that, I look for food or drink, thinking it's got to be cheaper now, nope, same price or more expensive. Sure, I understand fuel is more expensive, now that they fixed the fuel bug, but with crafting stuff selling for 1cp, you'd think the crafters could lower it a bit. <BR><BR>I wrote out a much longer response to this, but I deleted the rest of it simply because it's Friday and it's 5 o'clock somewhere, no need getting more frustrated with people like this.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>The mighty T3 crafter speaks!<BR>Sorry bub, you dont know squat what your talking about. Come back and post after you hit Tier 4 artisan and your adventure level is still T2 or T3.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>You know something, I don't have to be a T4 artisan to know what T4 harvested stuff sells for. Heck, I don't even have to be able to harvest in a T4 zone to know what T4 harvested stuff sells for. All I need are two things; foresight and the search function on a broker. Foresight is the ability to prepare for the future by looking ahead to take advantage of good prices now to use later when you need them. Is this unheard of to you? The search function on a broker is a simple enough concept and I will assume you have the ability to know what it is. Just about any time I look on the broker for what T4 harvests are going for, I see pages of items that are selling for 50cp or less. In fact, I have seen many T4 items selling for 2cp each. These items may not be the ones you need, but they are there. Have you also taken into account server differences? Your server may be newer than mine and have fewer people on it that can harvest T4 items. Put that in your pipe and smoke it before you come here telling me I don't know what I'm talking about.<p>Message Edited by Moorgard on <span class=date_text>03-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:09 AM</span>

[Qwindar]

<blockquote><hr>Rijacki wrote:You sell Fayberries for 1c??? (there was a reason I used that one as my example.. it's commonly priced at 5-10s each).Oh.. and until you hit T4 and T5 for crafting while you are still 27 or even less, then you really have no room to talk about the inability for those with higher crafting and lower adventuring to get stuff reasonably. For the low level adventurers, harvesting in high level places really isn't an option. Not Thundering Steppes (and the reason you put most of your harvests up at 1c is because too many others have them at 1c), but Enchanted Lands, Zek, Rivervale, Feerott, Everfrost, etc.The prices for harvests have come down (at least root, wood, rock, ore, and mushroom stuff), but it sure isn't 1c. When I hit 40 in alchemy, all of those were being sold for 2-3g each. As more people started reaching their 40s and were harvesting, prices did come down. Before the patch previous to this one, the one giving everyone the ability to make refines and interims, the "good" price for ashen root was 50s each. After that patch it dropped down to a low of 1s each. Now it's hovering at 5-10s each. The rest seem to have stabalised at 1-2s each, even the mushroom bits. I don't buy or sell T5 food harvests but I am sure they are waaaaaaay higher (especially dink ones) based on the pricing of fayberries in T3.<hr></blockquote>What exactly do you want? No risk harvesting so you don't have to gain adventure levels? Sit back at the crafting station crafting stuff so you can make a load of cash, with no expense? Unlike my first two posts on this thread, I'm not being sarcastic, I'm serious, what exactly do you want? No one class in this game can do everything. There is always a trade off, if you are strong in one area, then you have to be weak in another area. I know SOE promised crafters that the artisan class would be a fully functional class, and for the most part they are. You really only have to get to adventure level 7 in order to advance your class. Every artisan needs hps to survive the failures at the crafting station. I don't see why it's soo hard for crafters to adventure a little bit. Unless you don't want any risk at the crafting station? The original poster stated that SOE was trying to kill the artisan class by adding aggro mobs in safe harvest areas. That statement is false. You can level to 50 as an artisen without ever having to kill a mob, or even leave the city, once you ding level 7 adventuring. Sure, you will have to depend on adventurers to do it. That's when you said we (adventurers) charge too much. I simply said that was hog wash, well, ok, I used the term "a load of crap", and it's true, from my perspective. The only way adventurers make any money from harvesting is by doing wholesell quests, unless they harvest a rare. At the rate the rare harvests are obtained, that is not a viable means of making money on harvesting. I stated that one can buy most harvested items for 1cp, and it's true, on my server, at my harvesting tier, and the one above me. And no, I don't sell fayberries for 1cp, but I don't charge 3 to 5 sp for them either.

[Speak]

<DIV>I have no idea if the designer's idea has changed since Beta. But in early Beta they said craft people can harvest, but at great risk.  Harvesting  is considered adventurer's work and is one way hunting plays can earn money.  SOE really expected the crafts people to stay in focused with crafting, unless they were willing to raise both crating and hunting levels.</DIV>

[tikasa]

<DIV>I started everquest 2 because of the premise of doing something other then JUST killing.   They have effectivly killed that hope for me.   All my chars are at least 10 lvls above their adventure class and I cannot harvest for them anymore, nor can I buy from the wholeseller.   You have destroyed this part of the game for me and made crafting dependent on adventuring,   I give up I have patiently waited but you keep making it worse.   I am cancelling both  of my acounts and trying another game.   JUST adventuring is boring as just crafting is, but now you have forced me to JUST adventure untill I can then craft.   What happened to the idea of crafting being independent of adventuring???   When I preordered you could still choose to adventure or craft.    SOE I hope you keep up the bad job you are doing so EQ2 colapses.   You had such great ideas and sold me hook line and sinker..... you sure fooled me.</DIV>

[Qwindar]

<blockquote><hr>tikasa wrote:<DIV>I started everquest 2 because of the premise of doing something other then JUST killing. They have effectivly killed that hope for me. All my chars are at least 10 lvls above their adventure class and I cannot harvest for them anymore, nor can I buy from the wholeseller. You have destroyed this part of the game for me and made crafting dependent on adventuring, I give up I have patiently waited but you keep making it worse. I am cancelling both of my acounts and trying another game. JUST adventuring is boring as just crafting is, but now you have forced me to JUST adventure untill I can then craft. What happened to the idea of crafting being independent of adventuring??? When I preordered you could still choose to adventure or craft. SOE I hope you keep up the bad job you are doing so EQ2 colapses. You had such great ideas and sold me hook line and sinker..... you sure fooled me.</DIV><hr></blockquote>"Welcome to EverQuest II, where ADVENTURE comes alive!"Seems pretty honest and easy to understand to me.

[Entemo]

<DIV>Crafters need to start lowering prices cause i can look at the broker any giving time (well minus right after a server reset) and t5 havestables are under 1sp each. So you search for t5 or t4 crafted items and what the hell the prices have went up. While this may not be the case on test it is on the live servers.</DIV>

[Malack]

<DIV> <DIV>I don't know what the basis is for this "crafters are overcharging" B.S., but I'm a T3 adventurer, T3 weaponsmith, T4 alchemist, and T4 woodworker, and I'm here to tell you that I ain't makin' any money. People need to make a distinction between the running costs to adventure, and the cost of a crafted item. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Adventurers mostly complain about food and drink - that's a running cost. On a per-item basis, I don't find it to be bad at all. Provisioners work their arses off to make that stuff; I don't envy them. And to get a couple silver for their troubles, before expenses, is not a ripoff by any stretch of the imagination. This adventurer / artisan bashing does nothing but hurt everyone - the adventurers try to charge more to compensate for the fact that they have to buy crafted food / drink now, and in return are charged more by the artisans who are trying to justify putting up with growing frustrations over how crafting is going, as well as the same frustrations adventurers feel over the economy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Back to the topic of the thread - I can make enough money to buy myself decent T3 food / drink, repair my equipment, and make myself poisons and arrows, but as with the OP my problem is trying to harvest T4 - I can't do it to any degree. Certainly not enough to mass produce anything and, therefore, make all this cash some of you complain about.</DIV></DIV>

[Mat]

<DIV>I can't believe someone would whine about the current situation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Former:</DIV> <DIV>Adventurers made money by either selling harvested items or unused gear, and crafters would either self harvest or buy them from broker, produce, and sell.</DIV> <DIV>Both Adventurers and Crafters are making money.  = Balanced economy</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now:</DIV> <DIV>Everything has to be unattuned, more higher level players harvesting and selling in bloody low price (T5 Ore for 20Cs). Adventurers main income is, unofficially, <STRONG>DYING.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>Ingredients are hella cheap but still, everything in broker remains the same price as past, yet SOMEONE IS COMPLAINING ABOUT MOBS this time because they want to save more Coppers? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you don't like the current concept, you can always level your adventurer level, same as what many used to yell "Stop complaining and go do some crafting." </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Problem solved, adventurers remain broke, file closed.</DIV>

[Fle]

<DIV> <DIV>Now that SoE has added aggro mobs to almost all T3 & T4 harvest areas low adv lvl artisans can no longer harvest. What small safe areas that were left are now completely overrun and picked clean so those are not an option either.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To be able to safely harvest you have to be so high a level that if you could make something from what you could safely harvest it would be too low a level for you to even use. I guess tradeskilling is for equiping my low level twinks now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-------------</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Complete BS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV>

[nadi]

<DIV>im on antonia bayle.</DIV> <DIV>im a t4 provisioner and a t4 adventurer. </DIV> <DIV>i used to harvest in EL and make food to feed myself and my boyfriends chars. i dont sell food on the vendor. ALL of my money comes from adventuring. and i make good money. people who think adventurers must be broke, go to the dmorte burial chambers. or nektropos castle. i make good money on drops there.</DIV> <DIV>i used to be able to harvest and feed myself. now i cant harvest because of all the aggro mobs. i died 4 times trying yesterday. so i thought, ill buy ingredients. what do i see? raw honey - 23-25 silver each. raw cashew - 2 cp. now, if you put them together, you get one candied cashew. which sell on the broker for ONE silver piece. so i cant harvest because of mobs, and i cant buy and make food for myself like i was because its too expensive (yes some like cashews are cheap but unless i have honey i cant do jack with them) and i cant even buy and make food to sell and get back what i spent on the raws because the prices are all [Removed for Content]. i can no longer craft unless im paying a lot to do it. </DIV> <DIV>so basically:</DIV> <DIV>1) adventurers are NOT destined to be poor (contrary to popular belief)</DIV> <DIV>2) artisans are NOT destined to be rich (also contrary to popular belief)</DIV> <DIV>3) aggro mobs in harvesting areas sucks</DIV> <DIV>4) when that guy who ruined the market by selling things for less than the cost of FUEL to make them runs out of his stockpiles of raws hes going to be real sad i bet.</DIV>

[Kizee]

<DIV>Blame the soloers for all the extra mobs. I knew they were going to ruin the game. :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I haven't been out harvesting yet but from reading these boards and seeing all the crafters quitting on my server... I guess it's bad. :smileysad:</DIV>

[Rijacki]

<blockquote><hr>Qwindar wrote:<blockquote><hr>Rijacki wrote:You sell Fayberries for 1c??? (there was a reason I used that one as my example.. it's commonly priced at 5-10s each).Oh.. and until you hit T4 and T5 for crafting while you are still 27 or even less, then you really have no room to talk about the inability for those with higher crafting and lower adventuring to get stuff reasonably. For the low level adventurers, harvesting in high level places really isn't an option. Not Thundering Steppes (and the reason you put most of your harvests up at 1c is because too many others have them at 1c), but Enchanted Lands, Zek, Rivervale, Feerott, Everfrost, etc.The prices for harvests have come down (at least root, wood, rock, ore, and mushroom stuff), but it sure isn't 1c. When I hit 40 in alchemy, all of those were being sold for 2-3g each. As more people started reaching their 40s and were harvesting, prices did come down. Before the patch previous to this one, the one giving everyone the ability to make refines and interims, the "good" price for ashen root was 50s each. After that patch it dropped down to a low of 1s each. Now it's hovering at 5-10s each. The rest seem to have stabalised at 1-2s each, even the mushroom bits. I don't buy or sell T5 food harvests but I am sure they are waaaaaaay higher (especially dink ones) based on the pricing of fayberries in T3.<hr></blockquote>What exactly do you want? No risk harvesting so you don't have to gain adventure levels? Sit back at the crafting station crafting stuff so you can make a load of cash, with no expense? Unlike my first two posts on this thread, I'm not being sarcastic, I'm serious, what exactly do you want? No one class in this game can do everything. There is always a trade off, if you are strong in one area, then you have to be weak in another area. I know SOE promised crafters that the artisan class would be a fully functional class, and for the most part they are. You really only have to get to adventure level 7 in order to advance your class. Every artisan needs hps to survive the failures at the crafting station. I don't see why it's soo hard for crafters to adventure a little bit. Unless you don't want any risk at the crafting station? The original poster stated that SOE was trying to kill the artisan class by adding aggro mobs in safe harvest areas. That statement is false. You can level to 50 as an artisen without ever having to kill a mob, or even leave the city, once you ding level 7 adventuring. Sure, you will have to depend on adventurers to do it. That's when you said we (adventurers) charge too much. I simply said that was hog wash, well, ok, I used the term "a load of crap", and it's true, from my perspective. The only way adventurers make any money from harvesting is by doing wholesell quests, unless they harvest a rare. At the rate the rare harvests are obtained, that is not a viable means of making money on harvesting. I stated that one can buy most harvested items for 1cp, and it's true, on my server, at my harvesting tier, and the one above me. And no, I don't sell fayberries for 1cp, but I don't charge 3 to 5 sp for them either.<hr></blockquote>If you had read my first post in this thread, the whole thing, and had read any other post I had made on the subject, you would know I am all for the change to "grouping with a higher level to grey the mobs" just to harvest easily. I tip-toed around centaurs when I was harvesting T3 (I was agro to them from my first visit with a group that was, hey, what's that, kill it). I thought T4 harvesting was actually too easy and made me complacient. T5, that's another matter, I stepped lively around there when I did do any harvesting but mostly I relied on barter and buying.1c for harvests is true for T1-T3 and maybe even T4, but NOT for anything resembling a drink ingredient. 1s-2s is the norm now for T5, except roots and drink ingredients. Ashen Roots are commonly 10-25s now. Since quite a few crafted goods use wash, that 10-25s is carried into nearly every crafted item. The most common thing complain about the prices of are drinks. Charging 5-10s (the common pricing on the broker on AB) per fayberry and then complaining how expensive it is to buy any fayberry drinks is ludicrous. If all other T3 drink ingredients are priced 3-5s (not sure if they are that low), then they also influence the price of the multi-combine drinks for that teir since they use -several- raw harvests. THAT is my point. I don't know spcifics about the pricing on the T4 and T5 drink ingredients (I'm an alchemist, I don't follow that closely), but I am sure it's worse and I am sure to know all about it when my boyfriend's provisioner starts hitting them (he's just 30 now and I had given him 2 full stacks of every food ingredient earlier from my harvesting in T4 a couple months ago).BTW, I am an alchemist, as I said. I price according to my costs. When ashen root was 50s, I charged 20s per wash or oil. When it dropped to 10s, I charged 5s per wash or oil. I don't craft for free, though I have and will do crafting for barter, for resources or even finished goods I want and can use (for either myself, my alt, or my boyfriend's 2 characters). My boyfriend makes and sells subcombines for his level at reasonable prices as well. Neither of us is rich, but what does that truly matter? Pixel money.. can't buy squat with it outside of the game.<p>Message Edited by Rijacki on <span class=date_text>03-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:27 AM</span>

[Jillybean]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> Qwindar wrote:<BR><BR><BR><BR>What exactly do you want? No risk harvesting so you don't have to gain adventure levels? Sit back at the crafting station crafting stuff so you can make a load of cash, with no expense? <HR> </P> <P> </P> <P> Actually, I think some people do. Why? Because when they bought EQ2, that's what they were told they could do. Now with EQ2B which is what we've got not, that isn't an option. Some people are still left holding copies of their game asking why. If this had been what was marketed "have to fight, have to die, have to level to craft" some might not have chosen to purchase the game. People want to make the joke "it's everQUEST" not tradeskill tycoon? Well some people wanted to tradeskill only in an MMO, it's their right. I loved tradeskilling to help my friends out, now unless they can bring me the T3-4 Drink components, I can't do much by ways of buying them all. My evil provisioner money grabber demon only had 25 gold at her maximum bank account. ..what was my point again? Oh right, people simply want to play the game they bought, not the new incarnation that has eradicated what they were told they'd be able to play as</P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[sidgb]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fleet wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV>Now that SoE has added aggro mobs to almost all T3 & T4 harvest areas low adv lvl artisans can no longer harvest. What small safe areas that were left are now completely overrun and picked clean so those are not an option either.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To be able to safely harvest you have to be so high a level that if you could make something from what you could safely harvest it would be too low a level for you to even use. I guess tradeskilling is for equiping my low level twinks now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-------------</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Complete BS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I congratulate you on the well thought out arguement to my post. You will make a great debater one day. </P> <P>I have been tradeskilling and harvesting (trying with little luck) all weekend. Though I did have some success at 4AM Sat morning. I used to have competetion from 1 person, now when I log into 3 toes valley there are usually 3-4 people racing to get first to almost no harvest nodes. It now takes me 4 times as long to get half as much raws</P> <P>I don't want it to be easy, I just want it to be possible.</P>

[Kwoung]

<DIV>There are no agro mobs in Enchanted Lands along the stretch east of the docks.</DIV>

[sidgb]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Qwindar wrote:<BR><BR>What exactly do you want? No risk harvesting so you don't have to gain adventure levels? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I suppose running among grey mobs harvesting at adv lvl 50 constitutes a risk?</P> <P>I will make you a deal. I can live with the mobs if the nodes become unharvestable when the surrounding mobs become grey to anyone harvesting.</P> <P>Or are we saying harvesting should only be the perview of the Adventurer? </P> <P>Or, lets add code that when a node is harvested all normally aggro mobs in aggro range turn lvl 60. Then we can talk about who benefits from no risk harvesting.</P><p>Message Edited by sidgb on <span class=date_text>03-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:18 PM</span>

[Kyriel]

<DIV>sigh</DIV>

[Fle]

<DIV>Ok, ill be a bit more subtle this time. From my experience which is the total opposite to yours.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can't speak for everfrost or lavastorm yet as i hav'nt been to those zones but zek, enchanted lands and feerott have nodes all over the place...so many that in some places they litter the ground. Some areas are more dangerous than others but with a bit of care you can find spots where you can harvest without any danger at all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wether you want to just stick to tradeskill or not, you should just have as much risk out in the field as anyone. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now to enter these zones you need to be a certain lvl or complete quests to get access earlier. I don't know if it works of just what your adventure lvl is or it can go by your tradeskill lvl as well. Ahh,nm just saw someone say in a previous post that it goes by your tradeskill lvl too. Well im sorry but if thats the route someone chooses to go then fine but no way should they think they can go into dangerous zones without any risk.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Next we'll have people asking that all mobs in zones be non kos.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fleetfut.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>lvl 39 Weaponsmith</DIV> <DIV>lvl 39 illusionist</DIV><p>Message Edited by Fleet on <span class=date_text>03-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:24 PM</span>

[Iseabeil]

<DIV>as a lvl 44 provisioner, i make mostly tier4 drinks, or atleast used to, while i still could get raws. i used to charge 15s/h, a price that seemed to be appreciated by the folks buying it. when i go to the the broker these last few days, i see everfrost beans for 60s, honey for 50s, rolled oat for 40s.... </DIV> <DIV>soo.. i hike over to EL to harvest myself, only to end up with 2 wasted hours, 5 raws and one shard loss to mobs that i have never seen there before.</DIV> <DIV>oki, <beep> it, i think, ill just grind some fish... oh right, there are 3 whole fishnodes left after the fish killing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>im right now working on how to recalculate my drink costs, as my old price will not work anymore.</DIV> <DIV>i guess devs either didnt think too much, or they really do want drinks only for the select few who can afford it...</DIV>

[Valhu]

<DIV>Think of it as a competitive market..... some of your competitors (like me) have decided to increase their advantage by branching out and becoming a high enough level adventurer to be able to go to the dangerous areas in the land and harvest what they need.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You have chosen not to.... and therefore are at the mercy of the developers for mob placement and aggro.... and I don't feel sorry for you one bit...... you are playing a PvE based game.... you should expect that trying to only live the life of the "crafter" will with difficulites, or at the mercy of imports to supply your raw goods </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[sidgb]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Valhuru wrote:<BR> <DIV>Think of it as a competitive market..... some of your competitors (like me) have decided to increase their advantage by branching out and becoming a high enough level adventurer to be able to go to the dangerous areas in the land and harvest what they need.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You have chosen not to.... and therefore are at the mercy of the developers for mob placement and aggro.... and I don't feel sorry for you one bit...... you are playing a PvE based game.... you should expect that trying to only live the life of the "crafter" will with difficulites, or at the mercy of imports to supply your raw goods </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> So you dont mind paying up to 1 gold for food and drink I assume? All because devs added aggro mobs to harvest areas to make soloers happy. After all, it's all about supply and demand.

[tillerman35]

<blockquote><hr>Qwindar wrote:<blockquote><hr>tikasa wrote:<DIV>I started everquest 2 because of the premise of doing something other then JUST killing. They have effectivly killed that hope for me. All my chars are at least 10 lvls above their adventure class and I cannot harvest for them anymore, nor can I buy from the wholeseller. You have destroyed this part of the game for me and made crafting dependent on adventuring, I give up I have patiently waited but you keep making it worse. I am cancelling both of my acounts and trying another game. JUST adventuring is boring as just crafting is, but now you have forced me to JUST adventure untill I can then craft. What happened to the idea of crafting being independent of adventuring??? When I preordered you could still choose to adventure or craft. SOE I hope you keep up the bad job you are doing so EQ2 colapses. You had such great ideas and sold me hook line and sinker..... you sure fooled me.</DIV><hr></blockquote>"Welcome to EverQuest II, where ADVENTURE comes alive!"Seems pretty honest and easy to understand to me.<hr></blockquote>The solution, albeit a mandated one not a choice you get to make yourself, is an adventurer alt that you power-level up to the point where it can harvest in the areas you're interested in. Interestingly enough, my own choice was a provisioner alt, that I power-leveled up to the point where it could USE the harvests my adventurer brought back so that the adventurer could have the benefit of player made food and drink.This is my cut-your-face-off-to-spite-your-nose response to the nerf of vendor food. Furthermore, I've been refusing to sell the extras. I could have made a good 10gp from selling T3 food and drink, but what I don't use personally (or give to friends) gets sold to the frog in the basement of the t/s instance. I don't mind losing the coin because in all that harvesting, my adventurer main character has harvested every mined/forested/trapped rare there is up to T3. I've made more from those sales than I ever would have from wasting bandwidth and electricity having my provisioner selling the power-leveling by products on the broker.Take away the online selling kludge and your gathered resources will become cheap as free. Then your provisioner won't ever need to step a foot outside the kitchen and your problem will be solved.

[Troodon]

Provisioner raws components command higher prices by virtue of the additional time it takes to build up a stack of a particular type, you can easily spend an evening doing such. At Splitpaw-Qeynos, any provisioner raw associated with drinks gains an additional premium given how much in demand they are, and of course the prices charged for dirnks made from them (which as a minimum seem to be at least 100% more than the cost of the raw(S)).As for complaining about aggro mobs, well Ive been harvesting in Zek since I was 28. Beyond the relative safety of One-eye's valley and its corresponding sparcity of nodes, Ive harvested most of the south in areas flooded with wandering red aggro groups (including some very cunning big cats that seem to have the ability to completely hide themselves on the rocks between the Druid ring and Spirit Valley). Frankly I find it a little refreshing: harvesting was getting boring prior to that.No one is particularly grateful for someone else taking a cut in "their" profits and are thus always going to begruge having to pay for resources. Oddly though when prices crash (be it someone dumping massive quantities of various raws on the market or whatever) theres never a corresponding drop in finial prices :p Or for another example, for months apparently all Artisans where at the mercy.... now please sit down, make sure the children are in bed... Evil Alchemist, apparently these villans were manipulating the economies of entire countries with sub products that almost everyone needed. Yet when they were dealt with, that everyone could make their products and thus the price of such is now little more than the cost of production, strangely enough prices are still the same. Or if you want a real world example: big chain supermarkets have such a stranglehold on the market that they have the power to squeeze farmers to lower prices on their products, yet oddly enough prices in the shops never really drop.Yes it takes time to craft, but please remember it also takes time to harvest too. Ill never get rich harvesting (unlike the crafters I know), but its small income, a few hours out of regular play to make enough to pay for food, drink and armour repairs, and perhaps save up a little cash.

[Kizee]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> TroodonIE wrote:<BR><BR>Yes it takes time to craft, but please remember it also takes time to harvest too. Ill never get rich harvesting (unlike the crafters I know), but its small income, a few hours out of regular play to make enough to pay for food, drink and armour repairs, and perhaps save up a little cash.<BR> <HR> </P> <P>I don't know about that....</P> <P>I think that harvestors are making alot more cash than most crafting professions in less time.</P> <P>Full time harvestors have a good chance at rare components that sell for lots of cash and some of the prices I have seen for food raws have been stupidly high for just clicking on a dumb bush.</P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Banks_Lionhea]

<DIV>Frankly, I can still harvest in EL  because of my adventure level- (yes I also play on test) but the char I 'm referring to is a 36 Templar and 26 carpenter- with a 29 Prov alt.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here's my take: If I were a JERK  I'd say HAhaha! You artisans can't harvest anymore.. Lol! More for me!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But I'm not a jerk.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You were promised a class all your own.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The addition of group aggro fairy mobs.. wandering savage bears and some  (pretty) spiders among others , in the previously safe harvest zones is.. I think rather callous and mean on the part of the manager that approved it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There were plenty of harvest areas in EL that were dangerous and challenging before this "loads of new solo mobs added for adventurers!" content was put in the game .  So it's not like they took anything away from the  ' thrill for the skill ' crowd.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I swear the motto of that sadistic dev group is "Truth through Adversity" </DIV>

[Valhu]

<DIV>I still feel that if you want to be an artisan only, then you need to be willing to accept that you won't have access to every zone for harvesting.... no one has access to everywhere, adventurer of not, needs to be some risk</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh... and no I do not want to pay that much for a drink... but other Provisioners who are also adventurers may have lower prices..... or I could trade raw components, Inks, Scrolls, Furniture.... Artisan only characters do not have a monopoly on selling drinks.</DIV>

[Troodon]

<blockquote><hr>Kizee wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><P><HR>TroodonIE wrote:<BR><BR>Yes it takes time to craft, but please remember it also takes time to harvest too. Ill never get rich harvesting (unlike the crafters I know), but its small income, a few hours out of regular play to make enough to pay for food, drink and armour repairs, and perhaps save up a little cash.<BR><HR></P><P>I don't know about that....</P><P>I think that harvestors are making alot more cash than most crafting professions in less time.</P><P>Full time harvestors have a good chance at rare components that sell for lots of cash and some of the prices I have seen for food raws have been stupidly high for just clicking on a dumb bush.</P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><hr></blockquote>Well, why not try harvesting for an evening rather than crafting, find out for yourself what you think is more productive?At least with crafting you're working your way up in skill towards the higher tiers. As a harvester apparently Im freeloading scum. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Somone whom is completely at the mercy of markets as there is no intrinsic value in what I can obtain. Though all markets crash once their is enough competition in a tier range (that is the only people making a lot of cash are those ahead of the bell curve), when the harvesting market crashes, it hits 1c. Addtionally as a "full time harvester" each "clicking on a dumb bush" doesnt offer a return, a signficant amount of time has to be spent tidying up node distribution ie fishing and gathering alchemy nodes.

[Alther]

This is a good change. It's about time they added some risk to crafting instead of making it the cakewalk coin press that it has been. A pity they can't do anything about those of us who are already rich from using the system before these changes. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Gath]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Entemoch wrote:<BR> <DIV>Crafters need to start lowering prices cause i can look at the broker any giving time (well minus right after a server reset) and t5 havestables are under 1sp each. So you search for t5 or t4 crafted items and what the hell the prices have went up. While this may not be the case on test it is on the live servers.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>For the most part, I agree.  Everything is priced a lot higher than what it costs to make it, unless you're an alchemist.  I've been crafting and selling as an alchemist and even selling almost every night I have made very little profit.  I could sell 2 T3 rares and match what I've made thus far as an alchemist.  One of the big points I've seen on this thread is that now every crafter can make alchemist WORTs, which killed the only thing I could really make any profit on as an alchemist, but the prices for the items have not dropped.  So, to recap, they finished off killing the alchemist class so people would drop their prices, which has not happened.  So, why not put things back like they were?  Because people will always whine and complain that every patch does not make them uber rich and powerful.  There are two options, 1) take the lumps and bruises SOE dishes out in their meager attempts to fix things or 2) quit playing the game and voice your opinions through not spending your money on their products.  Personally, I'm seriously considering the latter.  If I did not have a guild that I enjoyed running so much I'd have been gone.  Either take it or leave it, or post /feedback and hope for the best (just don't hold your breath).</DIV><p>Message Edited by Gathis on <span class=date_text>03-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:33 PM</span>

[Bleusong]

<blockquote><hr>Kwoung wrote:<DIV>There are no agro mobs in Enchanted Lands along the stretch east of the docks.</DIV><hr></blockquote>yes there are now..bees to one side, bugs and faeries to other..found out the hard way../cheer for sprint before it gets nerfed<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />game was intended to be so you can be artisan or adventurer<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and how it was sold<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> -remember banker? ye be artisan or adventurer-..it's distressing to see all the higher tier artisans quit<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />..

[Bleusong]

<blockquote><hr>Gathis wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Entemoch wrote:<BR><DIV>Crafters need to start lowering prices cause i can look at the broker any giving time (well minus right after a server reset) and t5 havestables are under 1sp each. So you search for t5 or t4 crafted items and what the hell the prices have went up. While this may not be the case on test it is on the live servers.</DIV><BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><DIV>For the most part, I agree. Everything is priced a lot higher than what it costs to make it, unless you're an alchemist. </DIV><hr></blockquote>but are you willing to put forth time and effort to get to the levels to craft these items?

[EnlikilSinsh]

Hehe. This is funny. Crafting: There are only a handful of things that sell to players, the rest is junk.[need to balance the need for crafters wares]Harvsting: Need to be level 50 or have a friend who is 50 grey the zone out for you while you harvest.[Implement a toggleswitch for Players to switch between crafter and adventurer] and make the Mob cons reflect. Or give them a true value

[Gath]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>Bleusong wrote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For the most part, I agree. Everything is priced a lot higher than what it costs to make it, unless you're an alchemist. <BR></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV><BR>but are you willing to put forth time and effort to get to the levels to craft these items?<BR></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Well, Bleusong, I'm a T4 alchemist at the moment and still grinding the exp, in <STRONG><EM><U><FONT color=#ff3300>HOPES </FONT></U></EM></STRONG>that one day it will be better.  I have not gotten high enough to reliably make T4 app 4, but I don't have much hope in selling them either.  So, yes, I'm willing to put the time in to reach the levels and craft the items, but there is almost no market for them, even at rock bottom prices.  I tried to sell A LOT of warrior abilities in T3 and to be honest, I am lucky to get 1/2 the price for a warrior ability versus just selling the pristine ink outright.  There are so many adept 1 warrior skills that the alchemist market is almost 100% useless.  I can still sell T4 and T3 WORTs for about 1 s and 50 c profit, respectively, but they sell so slow it is not really worth it unless I know I cannot play for a couple days.  I'm making inks almost exclusively because from start to finish I get to gain exp from each step an not fill my packs with stuff that takes 2-3 days to sell at minimal profit.  To be point blank, I've sold about 60 gold total on my level 32 alchemist, and that is pretty sad, and a lot of that coin has been selling books, armor and other mob dropped items, not alchemy crafted items.</DIV>

[Gath]

<DIV>Edited out due to double post.  Sorry.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Gathis on <span class=date_text>03-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:47 PM</span>

[Bleusong]

<blockquote><hr>Gathis wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><HR></DIV><DIV>Bleusong wrote:</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>For the most part, I agree. Everything is priced a lot higher than what it costs to make it, unless you're an alchemist. <BR></DIV><DIV><HR></DIV><DIV><BR>but are you willing to put forth time and effort to get to the levels to craft these items?<BR></DIV><DIV><HR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><DIV>Well, Bleusong, I'm a T4 alchemist at the moment and still grinding the exp, in <STRONG><EM><U><FONT color=#ff3300>HOPES </FONT></U></EM></STRONG>that one day it will be better. I have not gotten high enough to reliably make T4 app 4, but I don't have much hope in selling them either. So, yes, I'm willing to put the time in to reach the levels and craft the items, but there is almost no market for them, even at rock bottom prices. I tried to sell A LOT of warrior abilities in T3 and to be honest, I am lucky to get 1/2 the price for a warrior ability versus just selling the pristine ink outright. There are so many adept 1 warrior skills that the alchemist market is almost 100% useless. I can still sell T4 and T3 WORTs for about 1 s and 50 c profit, respectively, but they sell so slow it is not really worth it unless I know I cannot play for a couple days. I'm making inks almost exclusively because from start to finish I get to gain exp from each step an not fill my packs with stuff that takes 2-3 days to sell at minimal profit. To be point blank, I've sold about 60 gold total on my level 32 alchemist, and that is pretty sad, and a lot of that coin has been selling books, armor and other mob dropped items, not alchemy crafted items.</DIV><hr></blockquote>mm..i was talking about folks who complain about crafted item prices..

[Gath]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bleusong wrote:<BR>mm..i was talking about folks who complain about crafted item prices..<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Well, my crafted item prices are almost always lower than those on the broker, even before the 20% hike the broker gives, but my wares still don't sell.  Alchemist just does nothing really besides lock up my bag slots.  My alchemist is also my main so I am stuck there with that toon.</DIV>

[Bleusong]

<blockquote><hr>Gathis wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Bleusong wrote:<BR>mm..i was talking about folks who complain about crafted item prices..<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><DIV>Well, my crafted item prices are almost always lower than those on the broker, even before the 20% hike the broker gives, but my wares still don't sell. Alchemist just does nothing really besides lock up my bag slots. My alchemist is also my main so I am stuck there with that toon.</DIV><hr></blockquote>mm..i think it's the same pretty much across all crafters...

[Kwoung]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bleusong wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kwoung wrote:<BR> <DIV>There are no agro mobs in Enchanted Lands along the stretch east of the docks.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>yes there are now..bees to one side, bugs and faeries to other..found out the hard way../cheer for sprint before it gets nerfed<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>game was intended to be so you can be artisan or adventurer<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and how it was sold<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> -remember banker? ye be artisan or adventurer-..it's distressing to see all the higher tier artisans quit<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />..<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>No there isn't, I am looking at my wife harvesting those areas right now.. not an agro in site. Those agro faeries and such were removed.<BR>

[Valhu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bleusong wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gathis wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bleusong wrote:<BR>mm..i was talking about folks who complain about crafted item prices..<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Well, my crafted item prices are almost always lower than those on the broker, even before the 20% hike the broker gives, but my wares still don't sell. Alchemist just does nothing really besides lock up my bag slots. My alchemist is also my main so I am stuck there with that toon.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>mm..i think it's the same pretty much across all crafters...<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Are you kidding?  Carpenters and Alchys get the shaft worse than the others.</P> <P>Furniture is sold by the merchants for cheaper, and many players don't even bother with fixing up their house with non quest furniture.</P> <P>Potions and poisons still don't sell.... at least on Faydark people still slowly buy my worts, but I have a decent price on them I think.... never was gouging for them (1 sp each for T2 for instance).  But from the way the sales log reads, I think I sell them more for people who are in a hurry, or just do not want to work up the skill to make their own.... still every customer is a potential competitor, and since it only takes T1 fuel to make anything, i have what... a 4cp price advantage?  </P> <P>Every artisan class has it's problems, but cmon... some do have it worse.</P> <P> </P> <P>Anyway... I still stand by my opinion that artisan only characters do not really belong in a zone full over 40+ mobs... that's like me going over to Iraq to look for a little crude oil, I would have a very real chance of danger.  </P> <P>T4 and T5 zones <U>should</U> be serious business... no walk in the park..... an Adventurer or Adventurer/Artisan character has invested the time to level their character to be high enough to survive in those zones, but you should be able to stroll in and safely pick berries?  </P> <P>They said that artisan only would be a viable path, but did they spell out <U>how</U>?  I don't recal reading anywhere that Artisan only characters would have access to harvest in all difficulties..... now I did read that Shadowknights are supposed to be able to wield Axes and Polearms (It's right in the manual), and if SOE can not even back that up... well... you get the picture<BR></P> <P>*edit for typo - me type good*</P> <p>Message Edited by Valhuru on <span class=date_text>03-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:57 AM</span>

[wr4ithd0]

<DIV>First, my lame counter-comment: "Way to go SOE, doesn't adventure level mean anything?  My AC is way up there now, there's no reason I should take any damage tradeskilling."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now to be serious....what's wrong with having to watch your back in a dangerous place?  Alot of the previous arguments seem to assum that adventurers can harvest with absolutely no problem anywhere they please.  This is not the case.  I too was surprised by the changes in Zek, but I still harvest in the zone no problem.  Situational Awareness, look at the nodes, notices any nearby mobs and keep your eye on them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It has been said you can buy everything off the broker.  You can, and I know on Lucan prices are dirt cheap for pretty much all harvested goods.  Heck, even the rares have to be sold cheap, with 2 execptions that I know of: Fir and T4 Pelts due to heritage quests.  Those prices are absolutely [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot].  I regularly sell my t4s for copper (unless i want to hold on to them for ever).  Copper is better than nothing IMO.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A true artisan would never leave the city, you would tradeskill all day and all night long.  When you adventure outside of the city you are relying on your adventuring skills.  So I really dont see any validity in your original argument.  An artisan can buy everything they need off a broker, therefore no mob has anything to do with the artisan class.  If you want to brave the lands, get up in level like the adventurers did.</DIV>

[Chukkl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kwoung wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bleusong wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kwoung wrote:<BR> <DIV>There are no agro mobs in Enchanted Lands along the stretch east of the docks.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>yes there are now..bees to one side, bugs and faeries to other..found out the hard way../cheer for sprint before it gets nerfed<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>game was intended to be so you can be artisan or adventurer<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and how it was sold<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> -remember banker? ye be artisan or adventurer-..it's distressing to see all the higher tier artisans quit<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />..<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>No there isn't, I am looking at my wife harvesting those areas right now.. not an agro in site. Those agro faeries and such were removed.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Interesting. I decided to harvest EL yesterday. Ran across a bunch of level 37 solo mobs in the "safe harvesting area", shrieking pixies iirc. Agro, moved around a bit, high in the sky and tough to see. Guess those don't count? Luckily I have the ac and hp to take a couple hits while running. I pity anybody with under ~1500 if they have to make it to the docks after getting agro from these.<BR>

[SunT]

<DIV>I was thinking about this while harvesting and running for my life...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think that there should be area's where an artisan can harvest aggro free...However...NO RARES should be included in the Node loot table in these safe areas.  You should be able to get your stuff for crafting but rares should be in high aggro areas hence more difficult to obtain and more difficult to farm for profit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The chance of harvesting a rare should increase with the difficulty of the zone vs the level of the toon.  i.e. if you can harvest a node under a red group mob and not die, it should grant you a better chance to get that rare then if you harvested under a green non aggo solo mob.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This would spice up harvesting a bit.</DIV>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SunTsu wrote:<BR> <DIV>I was thinking about this while harvesting and running for my life...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think that there should be area's where an artisan can harvest aggro free...However...NO RARES should be included in the Node loot table in these safe areas.  You should be able to get your stuff for crafting but rares should be in high aggro areas hence more difficult to obtain and more difficult to farm for profit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The chance of harvesting a rare should increase with the difficulty of the zone vs the level of the toon.  i.e. if you can harvest a node under a red group mob and not die, it should grant you a better chance to get that rare then if you harvested under a green non aggo solo mob.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This would spice up harvesting a bit.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Much to complicated for the 1% of the player base who would really *need* this.</P> <P>And now for the million-plat-question: "Why did SOE drop the idea of artisans as a class of its own?" <BR>Answer: "because they wanted people to lvl as adventurers and artisans at the same time!"</P> <P>So if you have only a cellar-dwelling artisan who cant kill stuff and not even an alt who can do the harvests for you then you are playing against the games design  - and your not supposed to succed.<BR></P>

[warchild]

<DIV>1. Why would any crafter want to go waste time Harvesting? On Unrest everything from T5 down is selling for 1s or less. ( but drink parts)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2.  paying 50c for T4 and T5  harvestbles is to much? *cough* T4 and T4 crafted idems sell for 1g+ and aveage 3g across most all class's</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3. This whole thread is based on DRINK which is another storie. the fact the Devs put to many quest in the game the require crafted drink or the part (fayberry for one, nek quest) and the low level of harvested idems for drinks. which makes drinks more rare.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4. you dont want to pay 2s to 4s for a fayberry, but you want to sell the drink for 50s to 75s ? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I agree with alot of the posters here. The only way to make some crafters happy is for everyone to give you the supplys Free and for the devs to give you fuel for free and them I still bet you come back crying about something. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> IF you want to be an artisans then be one buy your supplys and play your role Craft,</DIV> <DIV> IF you want to be an adventurer then level and go harvest. harvesting is what Adventures do when there not killing or Adventureing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> This is a Roleplaying game. Roleplay or learn to deal with it. the Dev's have 1000 other problems to deal with vs you haveing to pay 1c to  4s to make 75s to 5g on T4 and T5 products</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by warchild on <span class=date_text>03-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:55 AM</span>

[Kizee]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> warchild wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4. you dont want to pay 2s to 4s for a fayberry, but you want to sell the drink for 50s to 75s ? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I wish fayberries were that cheap... I see them for 20-25s on befallen all the time.<BR>

[Raven DarkSto]

<DIV> <P> </P> <P>Valhuru wrote:</P> <P>I still feel that if you want to be an artisan only, then you need to be willing to accept that you won't have access to every zone for harvesting.... no one has access to everywhere, adventurer of not, needs to be some risk</P> <P>Oh... and no I do not want to pay that much for a drink... but other Provisioners who are also adventurers may have lower prices..... or I could trade raw components, Inks, Scrolls, Furniture.... Artisan only characters do not have a monopoly on selling drinks.</P> <P> </P> <P>The devs said it would be a viable and equally rewarding path for players. That has changed. Your repeating the same "I am better than you" nonsense helps nothing and cannot change the facts. Before you get started, I have a lvl 38 Warlock and between invisibility and some root and nuke, I can gather almost anywhere.</P> <P>Fact: The devs said that artisan would be a viable and equally rewarding way to play the game.</P> <P>Fact: When the big nerf hammer (upgraded from a bat) dropped on the sellbacks ( and I know it wa needed btw), the devs stated that raws have no value and that they were not intended to be a source of income for anyone.<BR>** I personally think this should be a viable way to make coin as well</P> <P>Fact: During this time a lot of adventurers came on and said 'If you don't like it go harvest' and 'why should you get paid for what is lying on the ground free'.</P> <P>Fact: SoE added back a very small value to the raws. Still not enough for either the adventurer or the tradeskiller to profit or recoup costs for unwanted or less than ideal goods.</P> <P>Fact: By design high level crafters are allowed access to high level areas without raising their adventure levels. This was by design. They should not have to according to the devs. And they now have no choice if they do not want to poor money down the drain to level a crafter.<BR>**And no one cares who you wish to see in what zone.</P> <P>Fact: SoE added a stupid amount of solo mobs, in a misguided attempt to improve solo play.<BR>**By the way, has anyone noticed that these are primarily farmed by groups of 2-4 players speed killing to farm the drops?</P> <P>The result? Due to the addition of the mobs, the developers have inadvertantly created a play imbalance. There is a definite advantage for a smaller group of players who have the time to level both adventurer and tradeskill levels. This game was supposed to be casual play friendly, this diminishes that. And we all suffer for the shortages by paying higher prices for the drinks we all require.</P> <P>Please stop with constant repetition of your mean spirited, 'I am glad they changed it so you are messed up', "I am better than you cause I do it this way', trolling garbage. I hate to see any group diminished or nerf in any way, but I must admit a little bit of pleasure is felt when posters like this get the nasty end of an update and their complaints fall on unsympathetic ears.</P></DIV>

[Raven DarkSto]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Much to complicated for the 1% of the player base who would really *need* this.</P> <P>And now for the million-plat-question: "Why did SOE drop the idea of artisans as a class of its own?" <BR>Answer: "because they wanted people to lvl as adventurers and artisans at the same time!"</P> <P>So if you have only a cellar-dwelling artisan who cant kill stuff and not even an alt who can do the harvests for you then you are playing against the games design  - and your not supposed to succed.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>And when and from what dev did you get that little gem of information about the games design?  There has never been an official statement of that kind.  You are making assumptions about the devs intentions.  And we all know about assumptions don't we?</DIV>

[Raven DarkSto]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>**deleted, multiple post</BLOCKQUOTE><p>Message Edited by Raven DarkStorm on <span class=date_text>03-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:05 AM</span>

[Raven DarkSto]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE>**deleted, multiple post</BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><p>Message Edited by Raven DarkStorm on <span class=date_text>03-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:06 AM</span>

[Valhu]

<DIV>Your "facts" are rather loose... and you include your own analysis or opion in the same sentance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>FACT</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <P><STRONG>1.</STRONG> objectively real.<B><FONT face=Arial> 2.</FONT></B> A real occurrence; an event:<I> had to prove the facts of the accident.</I><B><FONT face=Arial> 3.a.</FONT></B> Something having real, demonstrable existence:<I> Genetic engineering is now a fact.</I> <B><FONT face=Arial>b.</FONT></B> The quality of being real or actual:<I> a blur of fact and fancy.</I><B><FONT face=Arial> 4.</FONT></B> A thing that has been done, especially a crime:<I> an accessory before the fact.</I><B><FONT face=Arial> 5.</FONT></B><I> Law.</I> The aspect of a case at law comprising events determined by evidence:<I> The jury made a finding of fact.</I></P> <P><EM></EM> </P> <P>Most of the little things you list are not facts.... a fact is something very definite, not something defined as such cause you say so.</P> <P>Yes the developers said artisan would be a viable path... how is it not now?  You still have access to all raw materials through other players.  Just like a pure adventurer has access to finished goods through an artisan.</P> <P>Oh... and how was I being "better than you".... I am an artisan and an adventurer, I mearly said so and that I am able to meet my own needs.... if you found that insulting, you need some sensodine.</P></DIV>

[Raven DarkSto]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Valhuru wrote:<BR> <DIV>Your "facts" are rather loose... and you include your own analysis or opion in the same sentance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>FACT</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <P><STRONG>1.</STRONG> objectively real.<B><FONT face=Arial> 2.</FONT></B> A real occurrence; an event:<I> had to prove the facts of the accident.</I><B><FONT face=Arial> 3.a.</FONT></B> Something having real, demonstrable existence:<I> Genetic engineering is now a fact.</I> <B><FONT face=Arial>b.</FONT></B> The quality of being real or actual:<I> a blur of fact and fancy.</I><B><FONT face=Arial> 4.</FONT></B> A thing that has been done, especially a crime:<I> an accessory before the fact.</I><B><FONT face=Arial> 5.</FONT></B><I> Law.</I> The aspect of a case at law comprising events determined by evidence:<I> The jury made a finding of fact.</I></P> <P><EM></EM> </P> <P>Most of the little things you list are not facts.... a fact is something very definite, not something defined as such cause you say so.</P> <P>Yes the developers said artisan would be a viable path... how is it not now?  You still have access to all raw materials through other players.  Just like a pure adventurer has access to finished goods through an artisan.</P> <P>Oh... and how was I being "better than you".... I am an artisan and an adventurer, I mearly said so and that I am able to meet my own needs.... if you found that insulting, you need some sensodine.</P></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> <P>The personal opinion and analysis as you call it them, are listed under the facts and denoted by the asterisks.  I thought they would be obvious to even a marginally intelligent person and so did not explain the obvious.  </P> <P>And to answer you question about the viability of a pure craftsman, I will just state a glaring inconsistency. Crafters are given access to the zones by virtue of their artisan level. Then it follows that their inability to utilize them as intended without leveling an adventurer is either an error in design or a change in policy for SoE.  If it is the latter, then a representative of SoE should state it.  Otherwise it is misleading at best and at worst a deceptive bait and switch.  If it is the former, it needs to be addressed.</P> <P>And how would a misspelled reference to a drug (sensodyne), used to decrease the sensitivity of teeth, have any bearing on my finding your post obnoxious and inflamitory?</P></DIV>

[Valhu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raven DarkStorm wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <P><BR> <HR> <P></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> <P>The personal opinion and analysis as you call it them, are listed under the facts and denoted by the asterisks.  I thought they would be obvious to even a marginally intelligent person and so did not explain the obvious.  </P> <P>And to answer you question about the viability of a pure craftsman, I will just state a glaring inconsistency. Crafters are given access to the zones by virtue of their artisan level. Then it follows that their inability to utilize them as intended without leveling an adventurer is either an error in design or a change in policy for SoE.  If it is the latter, then a representative of SoE should state it.  Otherwise it is misleading at best and at worst a deceptive bait and switch.  If it is the former, it needs to be addressed.</P> <P>And how would a misspelled reference to a drug (sensodyne), used to decrease the sensitivity of teeth, have any bearing on my finding your post obnoxious and inflamitory?</P></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You are a real piece of work.... lol</P> <P>"would be obvious to even a marginally intelligent person "</P> <P>Nice to see you keep it clean and can construct your opinions in a non insulting manner, a true sign of an articulate communicator.</P> <P>The obvious is you listed several things as "facts" when you have no evidence, proof or support of them.... now you are trying to gloss it off that only a "dumb" person would not see the distinction.  Well I submit that only a person trying to inflate the position they are standing behind would try to pass of so many opinions as facts.</P> <P>Let me explain to how a logical argument works....</P> <P>First you make a statement of FACT that can be proven as such... then you either make another statement that is also FACT and/or move on to the argument which is supported by the statement(s).</P> <P>For instance....</P> <P>All terriers are dogs. (Factual statement)</P> <P>All Dogs are animals..... (Factual statement)</P> <P>Therefore all terriers are animals. (Argument supported by statements)</P> <P>Don't even start calling things facts if you can not back it up.  You instead try to insult my intelligence and have still provided no links, developer statements... anything to back up your "facts".  What a joke.</P> <P>Moving on to the meat of your new argument... that is not a glaring inconsistancy, I can zone any level character into the epic zone in commonlands... all the mobs are 50^^.. and will kill me, but i can go there and look around and stay clear of them... same as an artisan in a t5 zone....... you can go there, but there is a risk.</P> <P>The reference to the drug sensodyne was that you are being to sensitive... sheesh.  If you find someone questioning your "facts" inflamitory and obnoxious.... get over it, it is going to happen.  If you don't want your posts questioned start a blog...<BR></P> <p>Message Edited by Valhuru on <span class=date_text>03-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:55 PM</span>

[Valhu]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <P>Here is a good example of your "fact".....  </P> <P>Fact: SoE added a stupid amount of solo mobs, in a misguided attempt to improve solo play.<BR>**By the way, has anyone noticed that these are primarily farmed by groups of 2-4 players speed killing to farm the drops?</P> <P>OK... so the ** part is your opinion and the rest is fact acorrding to you... even the most marginally intelligent person could see so...you say</P> <P>That leaves this:</P> <P>Fact: SoE added a <U>stupid</U> amount of solo mobs, in a <U>misguided</U> attempt to improve solo play.</P> <P>Notice the underlined stuff?  Those are opinions... not facts.  Lets remove the opinions from it.. then we have</P> <P>Fact: SoE added an  amount of solo mobs, in an attempt to improve solo play.</P> <P>That is finally a factual statement..... which one could link to the patch notes for the day that they added more solo mobs.......</P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Raven DarkSto]

<DIV>You are still trolling and pretending that you have some insight into an as yet unannounced change in policy on SoE's part.  And pick it apart as you will, the arguement is non the less valid.  You are correct, I should have used a term other than stupid amount, but there are quite a few more than there were before, to the point that there is little if any room to move past them.  I don't need your editorial of what I said.  And though you are quick to jump on my mistatement, when I point out that your own comment made no sense you pretend I am being silly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Silence I say, back under the bridge with you troll. lol</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seriously, we could continue this all day, but I have neither the time nor the patience for it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Enjoy your game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Valhu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raven DarkStorm wrote:<BR> <DIV>You are still trolling and pretending that you have some insight into an as yet unannounced change in policy on SoE's part.  And pick it apart as you will, the arguement is non the less valid.  You are correct, I should have used a term other than stupid amount, but there are quite a few more than there were before, to the point that there is little if any room to move past them.  I don't need your editorial of what I said.  And though you are quick to jump on my mistatement, when I point out that your own comment made no sense you pretend I am being silly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Silence I say, back under the bridge with you troll. lol</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seriously, we could continue this all day, but I have neither the time nor the patience for it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Enjoy your game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I am not trolling.. I am agreeing with the changes that have been made in game... and presenting my opinions why.</P> <P>*EDIT* Have you even read all the other posts in this discussion?  Or is the first one of mine you read my response to your "facts"?  Cause I have been part of the discussion prior to that.... pretty active troll I guess.</P> <P>I have no insight whatsoever into SOE's plans for the future (more than anyone else at least), and have not claimed to either... what are you getting at?<BR></P> <P>What editorial about what you said?  I posted a reply to your argument... is that wrong?</P> <P>You pointed out that I mispelled a word... wow... amazing... no one ever makes a typo or misspells anything ..... my ideas must be balony then... I pointed out serious flaws in your argument.... namely trying to call your opinions facts.</P> <P>I did not pretend you were being silly... I am serious, you need to be less sensitive.  Just because someone does not agree with you and has good reasoning behind it does not mean they are attacking you as a person.</P> <P>Again, just cause you call me a troll does not make me one... that is a pretty weak way to try and devalue my counter-arguements.  </P> <P>Try again.......</P> <P>I still stand by my opinion that no one should be guaranteed safety in a T4 or T5 zone.... you want to harest there, deal with the risks.</P> <p>Message Edited by Valhuru on <span class=date_text>03-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:19 PM</span>

[Speak]

<DIV>In very early beta when we could interact and discuss game features with the designers. As trade skills were turned on they stated, that while a Crafter can in fact harvest ( this is why crafter do get access to TS, Zek, El etc based on craft level), harvesting was in fact considered adventuring work, there would be risk.  The idea was simple, people out hunting could harvest as they kill critters, and they could sell back the harvest goods to crafters and make some money.  They never intended crafters to have a risk free harvesting area.</DIV>

[Suraklin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kizee wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> TroodonIE wrote:<BR><BR>Yes it takes time to craft, but please remember it also takes time to harvest too. Ill never get rich harvesting (unlike the crafters I know), but its small income, a few hours out of regular play to make enough to pay for food, drink and armour repairs, and perhaps save up a little cash.<BR> <HR> <P></P> <P>I don't know about that....</P> <P>I think that harvestors are making alot more cash than most crafting professions in less time.</P> <P>Full time harvestors have a good chance at rare components that sell for lots of cash and some of the prices I have seen for food raws have been stupidly high for just clicking on a dumb bush.</P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I can attest to that. I am 34 provisioner and gave up on it. I've been harvesting in Zek for almost 2 weeks now and reselling my harvests, shiny (?'s), and rares I found. Made 3 plat in less than 2 weeks doing that. Crafting isn't worth it in my opinion anymore other than to make food/drink for myself.<BR>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raven DarkStorm wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tradeskill_Addict wrote: <P>Much to complicated for the 1% of the player base who would really *need* this.</P> <P>And now for the million-plat-question: "Why did SOE drop the idea of artisans as a class of its own?" <BR>Answer: "because they wanted people to lvl as adventurers and artisans at the same time!"</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>And when and from what dev did you get that little gem of information about the games design?  There has never been an official statement of that kind.  You are making assumptions about the devs intentions.  And we all know about assumptions don't we?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I got that litlle *gem of information* from reading everything SOE  released as official info from the day they announced that EQ2 will definitely be produced. Back then artisans where supposed to be a class of their own.</P> <P>On Allakhazam there where a lot of threads related to this and I remember I posted my concerns about everyone being forced to have an artisan alt just to put 50% of their looted/harvested stuff to some use.</P> <P>@you personally: The game desingn started many months before EQ2 had a website of its own and a forum where dev notes where being posted. And it was changed a lot even before the first beta test started.<BR></P>

[Faarwolf]

<DIV>Keep to the topic at hand - picking each other apart in this thread won't help anyone.</DIV>

[TheTravell]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fleet wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV> I guess tradeskilling is for equiping my low level twinks now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Or make stuff you sell to mower level people to get money that you'll use later to buy stuff from people who sell what you can use. Why would <STRONG>you</STRONG> have to only use what <STRONG>you</STRONG> are making ??</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>About the crafters/adventurers "who's selling way too expensive ??" concern, I'd say it might be none of them. Maybe the ones who sell for too much are the people who play "Evermonopoly" by buying every and each item on a list of theirs under the price at which they'll sell them back later.</DIV> <DIV>That way crafters still sell as cheap as before, and adventurers buy as expensive as before because of artificially maintained high prices.</DIV>