Get it together dev's.

[Styl]

<DIV>Lost 3 more level 50's tonight.  They decided to quit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What happened to this formula?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=5>Risk = Reward</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The end game is a disaster.  The loot is horrible.  You can't have 24 people get online, raid for 2 hours, for wooden chest drops.</DIV> <DIV>You can't have people investing time to level up, and raid, to have the same loot that drops from group mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Make raiding fun again.  What happened to fighting your way through a whole zone just to get to the raid mob?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Where is the fun zoning into a small compact zone, killing the mob then leaveing?  Half the fun in EQL was just getting there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can't put a month long quest in for prismatic weapons, when the 30 min raid mobs are dropping weapons that are just as good if not better.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can't have mobs not drop any coin, then expect people to pay high amounts of gold to repair heritage items.</DIV> <DIV>You grind all night splitting loot with 6 different people, and maybe get 60 silver sell back on vendor items.  This leaves no money for repairs, arrows, poisens, tickets, or upgrades.  ( BTW if the money sinks were to stop site's like IGE, its NOT working. Every server has a bot group farming for them.  Just go look at there website)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can't have people farming rare harvests for 3 days to get a single rare.  In no way does 3 days equal the reward of having one piece of ebon armor or one spell upgrade.  ( 3 days is lucky too)  I've gone from 0 to 230 harvesting in 4 different harvesting methods...and only gotten 3 rares.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I understand wanting to please everyone, but it can't be done.  Your casual players deserve to have fun.  But most your casual players arn't on for 12 hours a day, and keep there subscriptions for 5 years.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Players are dropping like flies...cause the content at 45+ is boring, and the loot is trash.  WoW isn't any better either.  People are switching back and forth, trying each other, and realize they have about the same to offer at the high end  = NOTHING.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Of couse people are gonna flame this, saying everything is great, but most of them are still level 30 and have no idea what the high end is like.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You don't believe me?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Take a minute and go to the forums of ANY high end raid guild on ANY server.  And i'll kiss your rear, if any of them are happy with the content / loot, that they have been getting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know because I read the forums of about 4 high end guild, including my own guilds and everyone of them say the same thing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=5><STRONG>THE HIGH END CONTENT SUCKS.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text>Its sad when all the lvl 50's are spending there time HARVESTING, because the raids / loot are crap.</SPAN></DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Stylin on <span class=date_text>03-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:16 PM</span>

[Rendakor]

Well said, i agree 100%.

[Melamp]

Aye, Check out Legacy from Neriak...we've all stop playing for the same reason.it's sad when you see the highest players...the ones that have played from day one putting their heart into the game dropping off like flies...even entire guilds.The game has no meaning at the high end.Players are getting better loot from metal chest while xping and duoing than from a 24 person raid.on top of that SoE is making the game ezier and giving more money for things we've done long ago.make the game worth loging in to...stop making the game easier...sure get rid of time sinks but don't make it where every joe schmo can do the things that should take effort.getting to Sol Eye was a reward in itself for it's challenge now ppl lvl 42 are just gonna cruise in there like it's the ferrott or something.

[Zemeckis]

<DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>So many people have come up with legitimate arguments for the devs to look at like harder and more rewarding raid content and even the class balancing thing.  Devs are more worried about makin money off adventure packs then they are about pleasing the people who actually put the time into this game to help make it what it is.  You might see the occassional new epic instanced zone or maybe they'll actually fix scouts to be a DPS class, but I'm not putting my money on it.  </FONT></DIV>

[Thesp]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stylin wrote:<BR> <DIV>Lost 3 more level 50's tonight.  They decided to quit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What happened to this formula?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=5>Time spent = Reward</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Why should the only factor be time spent? How about challenge and skill?</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The end game is a disaster.  The loot is horrible.  You can't have 24 people get online, raid for 2 hours, for wooden chest drops.</DIV> <DIV>You can't have people investing time to level up, and raid, to have the same loot that drops from group mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>You also can't have all the best items drop only from raid mobs. Not everyone likes to raid. And for the record, I do enjoy raiding, I was in the #1 guild on my server in eqlive, we raided tons. But I also realise its not for everyone. That said, it makes sense to make a game where multiple means of advancement get rewarded, not just one.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Make raiding fun again.  What happened to fighting your way through a whole zone just to get to the raid mob?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Where is the fun zoning into a small compact zone, killing the mob then leaveing?  Half the fun in EQL was just getting there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Oh pls, spending 4 hours killing trash to get to a 2 min [Removed for Content] named encounter isn't fun either. Its like a rollercoaster at disneyland, you spend 2 hrs in line for 5 minutes of thrill.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can't put a month long quest in for prismatic weapons, when the 30 min raid mobs are dropping weapons that are just as good if not better.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can't have mobs not drop any coin, then expect people to pay high amounts of gold to repair heritage items.</DIV> <DIV>You grind all night splitting loot with 6 different people, and maybe get 60 silver sell back on vendor items.  This leaves no money for repairs, arrows, poisens, tickets, or upgrades.  ( BTW if the money sinks were to stop site's like IGE, its NOT working. Every server has a bot group farming for them.  Just go look at there website)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Money sinks were not to stop sites like IGE, the only way to stop them is to ban accounts or take legal action. Money sinks are to preserve the economy so that it doesn't become bloated, eqlive is a perfect example of what NOT to do.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can't have people farming rare harvests for 3 days to get a single rare.  In no way does 3 days equal the reward of having one piece of ebon armor or one spell upgrade.  ( 3 days is lucky too)  I've gone from 0 to 230 harvesting in 4 different harvesting methods...and only gotten 3 rares.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Rares are supposed to be just that, <FONT color=#ff0000 size=7>RARE</FONT>. Not everyone is supposed to be guaranteed their quota of rare harvests if they're willing to spend the time farming nodes, its supposed to happen purely by chance.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I understand wanting to please everyone, but it can't be done.  Your casual players deserve to have fun.  But most your casual players arn't on for 12 hours a day, and keep there subscriptions for 5 years.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>The hardcore raider who plays 12 hours/day burns out too, I've seen it happen countless times.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Players are dropping like flies...cause the content at 45+ is boring, and the loot is trash.  WoW isn't any better either.  People are switching back and forth, trying each other, and realize they have about the same to offer at the high end  = NOTHING.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Consider that the game is mere months old, with no expansion packs atm. How many games have tons and tons of end-game content starting day one? Thats right, not many. Expansions will bring more endgame content than you can shake a stick at, but then again you already knew this so I don't know why you're complaining. Also note that EQ2 is not a 1-dimensional, 100% focused on end-game raiding. For this, I am thankful. There are many more avenues of advancement to pursue after reaching max level as an adventurer. I'm sure you know what some of them may be and you'll probably come back and say that you're not even remotely interested in those things, but then you have only yourself to blame for not playing the game to the fullest.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Of couse people are gonna flame this, saying everything is great, but most of them are still level 30 and have no idea what the high end is like.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You don't believe me?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Take a minute and go to the forums of ANY high end raid guild on ANY server.  And i'll kiss your rear, if any of them are happy with the content / loot, that they have been getting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know because I read the forums of about 4 high end guild, including my own guilds and everyone of them say the same thing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=5><STRONG>THE HIGH END CONTENT SUCKS.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text>Its sad when all the lvl 50's are spending there time HARVESTING, because the raids / loot are crap.</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text><FONT color=#ffff00>WHAT!?!?! you mean this isn't another uber-guild-only expansion for eqlive?!?! whodda thunk it? Seriously tho, this game is designed for 200 levels and brand new so the first concern of the devs was to design a quality foundation from which to build off of (which I think they have done a wonderful job at). High end content will come in time, but you might have to exercise a small amount of patience. But hey, the more of you [Removed for Content] that quit, the more content for me when the expansions come </FONT>:smileyvery-happy::smileyvery-happy::smileyvery-happy::smileyvery-happy::smileyvery-happy:</SPAN></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Stylin on <SPAN class=date_text>03-09-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:21 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Melamp]

<blockquote><hr>Thespar wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE>A bunch of bull [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]</blockquote>"You also can't have all the best items drop only from raid mobs"where do you want them to come from? do you want joe and his friend betty to log in..go to el..kill a couple wasps and get uber great sword for joe to use to kill a badger next?meanwhile two dozen ppl go into a zone where if a mob turns around it'll kill someone in 1 hit..or it's AE takes out anyone with less than 3000 hp and they finally kill it after adapting to it's abilities and they get Woot...a teakwood Bo..that no one wants/needs and sales for 30 s to the vendor"Rares are supposed to be just that, RARE. Not everyone is supposed to be guaranteed their quota of rare harvests if they're willing to spend the time farming nodes, its supposed to happen purely by chance."I agree they should be rare...but again the "by chance" is bs...lvl 50's they don't need xp, most thier friends are probably the same way...there's no really good loot..so what can they do with the hours that they play a day to make themselves better? they can go to a zone and spend hours harvesting..hoping to get some rares for some "decent" armor and spell upgrades...then little joe wants to go and get to another zone to sit by the shoreline with is friend betty..but along the way it harvestes a rock and finds a nice rare ruby for his beloved..only cause he has as much chance as getting a rare as the person spending hours trying to get one."WHAT!?!?! you mean this isn't another uber-guild-only expansion for eqlive?!?! whodda thunk it?"why does every expansion in eq1 from a casual gamers point of view have to be uber guild only.I mean my god if they want to add 10 zones in an expansion that only the highest lvl ppl can get to it makes since..because those high lvl ppl don't need xp..probably aren't really looking for random quest..they are looking for a challenge and rewardthe casual gamer on the other hand that's lvl 40 is probably looking for reward/quests/fun and XPand there'e probably another 200 zones that you can go to...go to perma/sol b/ guk/[Removed for Content]/tofs..you got so many zones that if you only killed one of each monster in those lvl appropriate zones you'd be a high lvl character by the time you got done.

[stoutbrewdrink]

<DIV>Kedrin Stoutbrew here, Leader of Halcyon Affinity on Antonia Bayle. 100% agree here</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>we are basically the only high end guild on server adn still have problems keeping members because they are displeased with the game. Its tough cause i agree that eq2 needs some major help on the high end. We need something to do besides raiding as well... bring back AA for all i care. We cant raid at all times but we can AA all day any time of the day</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>yes 100%, high end is borked and players are leaving cause of it. these are long term loyal people, but there is a limit to what some people can take and they reach it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Other servers high end guilds report in, its the truth.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[stoutbrewdrink]

<DIV>pls keep flames out of this... lets keep this a clean thread. (alot of people like to flame "high end" thread info etc etc)</DIV>

[Zichius]

<DIV>Keep lanaguage clean ehehe but i understand why u kos to game</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/agree not in total * but i add my personal contribute</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We are a small old time friend guild, like all ppl playing tog since 1999!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When Eq2 was released we all jumped on it and i push to let everyone work on tradeskills!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And now:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have a 31 adventurer 50 crafter AND THE CONCLUSION IS THAT I WASTE TONS OF TIME AND MONEY IN CRAFTING the reasons are known to everyone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am living since 17/2 in hope that something changes/leveling fast but you are shattered my dreams.......</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Very sad to hear that, and most of all i am very disappointed cause imho i think that the game is more nice when first come out then after 4 month <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />((</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*Not in total cause i think that EQ1 dies when pop released, it become a ULTRA UBAH HIGH LEVEL GUILD/PPL game, that can be good or bad it only depends on which side you are i.e. no 65 or 70 with 500 aa's and ubah guild? = no fun </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cya Guyz</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Zichius on <SPAN class=date_text>03-10-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:29 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Zichius on <span class=date_text>03-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:48 AM</span>

[Big Da]

<DIV>The problem with rushing to the limits of a game is just that .... It is the limit ... for now, this is where it stops! If Sony put in more content for the people who rushed to the end, they will only finish that and then ask for more! The pace of this game, for good or bad, is being set by the casual gamers. They are not yet at level 50. In a few months when the casual gamers are in their 40s and 50 there will be content, but for now maybe another game for a while until there is.</DIV>

[A]

<blockquote><hr>Big Dave wrote:<DIV>The problem with rushing to the limits of a game is just that .... It is the limit ... for now, this is where it stops! If Sony put in more content for the people who rushed to the end, they will only finish that and then ask for more! The pace of this game, for good or bad, is being set by the casual gamers. They are not yet at level 50. In a few months when the casual gamers are in their 40s and 50 there will be content, but for now maybe another game for a while until there is.</DIV><hr></blockquote>The most thoughtful reply yet!SOE has stated this time and again with EQ2.Quick math test! Powerguild per server (let's assume 5 for argument sake) X Powerplayers per guild (let's assume 30) X servers for EQ Grand total: 3750 powerplayers vs Total number of players in EQ2 350 000.That's just over 1 percent of the player population. Who is SOE marketing to again? Disappointing, i'm sure if you're in that 1 percent. But too many MMOrpg's in the past catered exclusively to that 1 percent and where are they again? A place called "Insolvency".I do believe that high level content will improve as time goes on, as it should! But I think that SOE wants everyone to have an opportunity to acquire it...not just those who play 23/7.Seems simple enough <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by Aia on <span class=date_text>03-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:35 AM</span>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Big Dave wrote:<BR> <DIV>The problem with rushing to the limits of a game is just that .... It is the limit ... for now, this is where it stops! If Sony put in more content for the people who rushed to the end, they will only finish that and then ask for more! The pace of this game, for good or bad, is being set by the casual gamers. They are not yet at level 50. In a few months when the casual gamers are in their 40s and 50 there will be content, but for now maybe another game for a while until there is.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I agree but.....I am an avid fan of EQ2 but I have to admit that leveling seems to go to fast. </P> <P>Dont get me wrong  - I dont say I get to much XP :smileywink:</P> <P>But I stoped killing anything thats not quest-relatet at level 20 because my quests started to out-grey. Now my char is lvl 22nd, has only killed quest mobs but while the quests stay at least green, the mobs started turning grey. Alone in doing AQ1-AQ4 one acuumulates so much XP that theres not much room left for grouping to lend others a hand for <EM>their</EM> quests.</P> <P>At the moment (not counting collection quests) I still have unfinished 15+ green quests, 5+ blue quests and about 10 white/yellow. i know a bunch of other players I could group with to do the white/yellow stuff easily but I am just afraid I'd make the (now) green quests worthless in doing so.</P> <P>Maybe thats why I play under the impression I am leveling too fast..... or is it really so much easier in EQ2 that I might *strand* at 50 without actually having to work hard for it?</P>

[Zerofault]

<DIV>There is absolutely NO arguements that make any sense against better and more high end raid content...  I also think the best items should only be gotten from raids... with group named being close second...  Risk vs Reward is TOTALLY lacking in eq2... Raids are fun the first time around for the kill, then they become fun for the loot... not so in eq2...  I don't care about the casual gamer,  I am not a casual gamer...  I'm sure the casual gamer does care about the hardcore gamers, as you can tell by the flames.. they are jealous and think they deserve the same equipment in 2 hours a day that some put 12 hours a day into... thats rediculous.  There needs to be a distinction between casual and hardcore gamers...  As it works in life, so should eq2... the more of yourself you put into something, the more you should recieve from it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lodoz - Nektulos</DIV>

[Gladesto]

<DIV>Well thats why im not lvl 50 yet.Im not even hard core exping.Im just doing heritages for now.Levels will come.Why rush to high end.Im in an understanding, that we wont get high end raid areas until at least next expansion patch.So do other things.Help your guildies out.Work on your heritages.Work on crafting.No reason to even rush to 50 yet.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On the brighter note.Your right about high end things.Im also thinking to myself.Why do we need to pay 5.95$ for an upgraded area.Games like city of heroes.Do this for free.There almost on issue number 4 an dont have to put up an extra five dollars for more zones.Its soes greed thats forcing players to leave.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thats that subject.Though i do like this game a lot.There could be changes made to make it a whole lot friendlier to the community.Ive said it once before.Bring back the old days.Lets us cast our spells on each other.Why shouldnt we be able to do this?It brought cash to the players which is much needed in this land.Im lvl 40 an what have i made?60 gold.Give me a break.Im also a alchemist so before you gripe an say work on a craftsmen.Im lvl 28 an if i dont drop my items to 2 silver, they just dont sell.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So soe before more players quit, Do some thing to fix this situation.</DIV>

[NeVeRLi]

Well said, I agree 100%.

[Big Da]

<DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>There is absolutely NO arguements that make any sense against better and more high end raid content...  I also think the best items should only be gotten from raids... with group named being close second...  Risk vs Reward is TOTALLY lacking in eq2... Raids are fun the first time around for the kill, then they become fun for the loot... not so in eq2...  I don't care about the casual gamer,  I am not a casual gamer...  I'm sure the casual gamer does care about the hardcore gamers, as you can tell by the flames.. they are jealous and think they deserve the same equipment in 2 hours a day that some put 12 hours a day into... thats rediculous.  There needs to be a distinction between casual and hardcore gamers...  As it works in life, so should eq2... the more of yourself you put into something, the more you should recieve from it.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <P>I'm afraid EQ2 is targeted at the casual gamer more than EQ! The thing is we DO have the same equipment just the same equipment you had a few months ago, with all the new content and fixes it is probably better! We have lots left to do and a new expansion pack aimed at our levels! It’s great!</P> <P>I'm afraid in life it is usually the quality of ones effort not the quantity that earns you real rewards, the irony with your statement is that the casual players are the ones spending time on their real lives. :smileyhappy:</P> <P>I think you may have mistaken the intent of Sony with EQ2, they make no more money from a minority of power gamers than they do from the rest of the player base. If all the level 50 "hard core" left the game it would have very little impact on their profits as we do not pay by the hour.</P> <P>The thing I do appreciate from power gamers is they in effect bug test the content we all have to come, so it works nicely when we get there!</P> <P>Maybe alternating between 2 games would be more effective that way you can still use up all this free time and maintain pace with the rest of us!</P><p>Message Edited by Big Dave on <span class=date_text>03-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:26 PM</span>

[Namil]

<DIV>I have to agree as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am not a casual 1 or 2 hour, once ever other day player but I am not a race to the end kind of person either. In 4 months I have made level 38. Now with mentoring I can group with anyone at anytime. I can do every quest and enter every zone with the changes they made recently. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have to agree with a previous poster outside of some obvious issues I liked the game better at release. EQ2 may have reached 350,000 subscriptions or whatever it was but in 6 months the majority of the population will be 50 and bored, with no need to purchase equipment or items. Some people think well they will just keep making alts, but in time this fades as well because people dont want to delete their higher level alts. People are doing now to find the class they like best.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is kind of a jumble of thoughts here but I am concerned for the games future as I really enjoy playing.</DIV>

[Baelzharon]

Listen, this is not EQlive or Everquest 1 or Evercamp or whatever you want to call it. From Day 1 the primary goal of Everquest 2 was to recapture old players from EQ1 and other MMOGs by creating a casual MMOG that is challenging but not requiring hardcore amount of playtime. No where did any Dev, producer or anyone from SoE say that EQ2 would be a hardcore sequel to EQ1. Infact it is not even in SoE best interest to compete with EQ1, where if you want long camps, hardcore end game and raids that require 6 hours to complete you can have it. EQ2 is not designed to cater to the hardcore players, and I am surprised that people like you who obviously know alot about this game haven't figured that out yet. EQ2 is designed to be fun, exciting, challenging and full of content from level 1-50 and not just at 50 like you want it to be.<p>Message Edited by Baelzharon on <span class=date_text>03-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:17 AM</span>

[Ethi]

<DIV>I believe that SOE has said repeatedly that the game is big enough for BOTH casual and hard core players.  It IS an issue that the high level game is missing.  Casual players will eventually get to the high lvl game and if it is empty they like the hard core players will leave the game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However in the same way that SOE is trying to improve the game for casual players they need to address the gameplay for hardcore players.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think it is unfortunate that EQ2 doesn't seem to have a niche that it is the best at... I mean on the casual game WoW really is the king.  On the hard core game EQ is best.  SOE is seeing a lot of people leaving EQ and that won't slow as new games hit the market people will take a look.   The real winners will be the games that lead in their niche.  EQ2 started out more hard core than it is.  But it looks like in response to WoW they are making it more casual friendly.  This isn't a bad thing but I think they are loosing sight of where they want to go....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Where will old EQLive players go in the next year to find a new game that has depth and compelling high end game play?  Vangard?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Will WoW sit in it's dominant casual game orientation or will it build in high level challenging content to try to be the follow on for both casual and hard core players?  You might want to read the latest expansion announcement from Blizzard on this...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[stoutbrewdrink]

<DIV>heres something you are over looking....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if high end is crap and everyone knows it why the hell would they play the game up to that point?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i mean honestly, who doesnt search for the coolest raid mobs and loot when you are young? if you see guilds showing how crappy it is why the hell are you going to play the game to come up to that point that everyone considers the high end of the game if its total crap? If hardcore people dont stay around  IT WILL effect everyone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Take a look at both sides</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>casual and hardcore need each other, and no one will play this game alot if theres nothing to look forward to.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i also agree to there needing to be a MUCH MUCH bigger gap between the hardcore and casual people. </DIV>

[Thesp]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> stoutbrewdrinker wrote:<BR> <DIV>heres something you are over looking....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if high end is crap and everyone knows it why the hell would they play the game up to that point?<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Because:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A) theres more to eq2 than powerleveling to max level and then raiding 8 hrs/day</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>B) because we all know that there will be expansions that focus on adding high end content. You should have expected that the original release would focus the low to mid level game because that is what the majority of the player base is going to be experiencing. Honestly, what game is released from day one with tons and tons of end-game raid content?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The other thing you all gotta realise is that raiding in EQ2 is not going to be the end-all. Theres going to be other ways to get good gear that doesn't involve killing group x4 monsters. Its still going to be challenging and take time but good gear is going to be available to people who never attempt to kill a "raid" monster. Hate to break it to all you uber-guild-baby-whiners but you're not going to have an exclusive monopoly on all the best items in the game. Deal.</DIV>

[Valhu]

<DIV>The raiding culture is not controlling the development curve right now.  The game is still not even in its adolecence... look at the average level per server, are there any that are 20+?   People who have gone through all the content fast have done just that..... done it fast..... and as soon as they release a new expansion... how long for they do all that then complain that it nees to be improved?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, sorry to say that the casual gamers most likely outnumber the raiders in subscriptions.... and that is more important to them than daily time played..... it would be to me if it was my company.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do feel your pain though.... but when compared to all of the other problems they need to repair, its just not the #1.... you have classes that are not even worth having in the raids that are available (and just want to be usefull but are not)....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They will work on the end game content.... nearly every expansion that came out for EQ1 the first 2 years was mostly content for high end + raids....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S. on a side note purely for curiosity, most companies have a type of customer that they dread because they use more resuources than average customers without less or no improved profit... I bet SOE thinks of raiders that way... they rush to end game content that is not all the way tested (likely) and use the servers more per day than an average customer.... Not bagging on raiders, just mentioning it</DIV>

[Baelzharon]

<blockquote><hr>stoutbrewdrinker wrote:<DIV>heres something you are over looking....</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>if high end is crap and everyone knows it why the hell would they play the game up to that point?</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>i mean honestly, who doesnt search for the coolest raid mobs and loot when you are young? if you see guilds showing how crappy it is why the hell are you going to play the game to come up to that point that everyone considers the high end of the game if its total crap? If hardcore people dont stay around IT WILL effect everyone.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Take a look at both sides</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>casual and hardcore need each other, and no one will play this game alot if theres nothing to look forward to.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV><b>i also agree to there needing to be a MUCH MUCH bigger gap between the hardcore and casual people.</b> </DIV><hr></blockquote>For every guild who cries foul and wimpers here that the content is lacking there are dozens more plugging away and having fun playing the game. I think you guys are blowing things slightly out of proportion here, and regardless of what SoE does you will find fault. If someone decides to level up to 50 and beat all the end game in 3 months and quits it will have a net effect of 0 on me. They got their moneys worth and are on to other things, and kudos for them. I highlighted your last statement there because I fail to see what kind of gap you would like to see. How would you approach this gap? What kind of reward is justifiable to give customers who spent 40 hours a week compared to the guy who played 25, but paid the same amount of money regardless? In the end we both payed the same amount to get access to the same content only you chose to do it faster then I did.In all the years of playing hardcore end game EQlive (3+ years of bleeding edge gameplay) the only thing that seperated me from the casual players was pure game time. All the content was available to them but they just got to it at a slower pace then I did. While my guild was punching through Uqua other guilds were just getting to Quarm for the first time for example. The reward for me was being able to jump right into new content as it became available and not have to spend time gearing up for the next expansion. To forge new paths and discover content that there was not spoilers for. I loved tackling zones and mobs that not sites like allakhazam's didn't have a link too. Finally, I think you are selling SoE short by complaining about content after the game hasn't been live for 6 mopnths yet. The 1st expansion is about to be released (mini one at that) and you are already chomping at the bit for more? These devs can only make content at one speed and they have to keep everyone happy and not just you greedy players who have 40+ hours a week to blow on a game. Try some tradeskilling, or mentor and do some content you skipped by to reach 50. If that doesn't hold your interest then maybe you need to take a cold hard look at why you play MMOGs in the first place...

[Melamp]

See one of the problem that casual gamers don't see is that lvl 50's and hardcore players HAVE done the fun things that you are doing now.what are you doing that is so enjoyable? because most of the power gamers have done it toYou enjoy quests? they are so fun right? I bet most uber guilds have at least a min of 200 quests completed per member...some of my friends in my high end guild have over 570 quest.Work on tradeskill to offset adventuring frustation..well on Neriak there are 4 lvl 50 adventurers that are also lvl 50 crafters..my guild has 3 of those for with me being 50 adventurer and 49 crafter.Heritage quests..these are very well thought out quests with nice rewards.again with the loot situation you will see most high end players using heritage rewards because there's not much else better..so they do thisspend time with friends...that's exactly what guilds are...were all friend with the same goals and spend hours and hours togetherHigh end players have done everything you have done and do for fun...but because of play time they have gone past it and nothing is left..nothing but raiding..which is useless because there is no reward.and as far as eq1 being catered to uber players it's not...if an expansion comes out and it has high end stuff does that bother you? with 7-8 expansions plus the orginal there's probably 700 zones total...and 600 of those are for lvl 50's and below. If you do'nt think a new expansion has anything to offer you..make sure you see everything in a previous expansion before getting upset

[Styl]

<DIV>All these people saying we powerleveled through the content and are complaining because there is nothing to do, are totally mistaken.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They only difference, is we started the game at day 1, and you started it a month later.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All the content your are doing, WE DID.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have done all the side access quests.  I have done over 15 heritages.  I have harvested for weeks on end.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The biggest difference in the people flaming is the simple fact that THEY ARE NOT AT THE SAME SPOT IN GAME WE ARE.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So you base your opinions on the content your doing now....which you enjoy, and we did at that time to.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To be able to have a valid opinion about high end content, you need to experience it.  Which most of you haven't yet.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You think that the 90% of lvl 50 players are all saying that it sucks for no reason?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And I want to see your Jump for Joy, when you raid one of these high level zones, kill some mob that takes 4 groups, and realize it drops the same CRAP that you got from xping.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How you can have an opinion about the high end content, when you haven't experienced it, is beyond me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its like saying man didn't walk on the Moon, cause you weren't the one taking the steps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dev's something is seriously wrong, when the MAJORITY of level 50 players would rather harvest then try to tackle your high end raid zones.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Dev that came up with the Drath quest needs to be the lead dev.  This was the best content in the game PERIOD.</DIV> <DIV>The Dev that came up with the stats for the Prismatic Weapons, needs to be taken out back and quartered.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But now there is Nothing worth doing.  The end content sucks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Baelzharon]

<blockquote><hr>Stylin wrote:<DIV>All these people saying we powerleveled through the content and are complaining because there is nothing to do, are totally mistaken.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>They only difference, is we started the game at day 1, and you started it a month later.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>All the content your are doing, WE DID.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I have done all the side access quests. I have done over 15 heritages. I have harvested for weeks on end.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>The biggest difference in the people flaming is the simple fact that THEY ARE NOT AT THE SAME SPOT IN GAME WE ARE.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>So you base your opinions on the content your doing now....which you enjoy, and we did at that time to.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>To be able to have a valid opinion about high end content, you need to experience it. Which most of you haven't yet.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>You think that the 90% of lvl 50 players are all saying that it sucks for no reason?</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>And I want to see your Jump for Joy, when you raid one of these high level zones, kill some mob that takes 4 groups, and realize it drops the same CRAP that you got from xping.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>How you can have an opinion about the high end content, when you haven't experienced it, is beyond me.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Its like saying man didn't walk on the Moon, cause you weren't the one taking the steps.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Dev's something is seriously wrong, when the MAJORITY of level 50 players would rather harvest then try to tackle your high end raid zones.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>The Dev that came up with the Drath quest needs to be the lead dev. This was the best content in the game PERIOD.</DIV><DIV>The Dev that came up with the stats for the Prismatic Weapons, needs to be taken out back and quartered.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>But now there is Nothing worth doing. The end content sucks.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><hr></blockquote>Still doesn't answer what the heck you want. If it's more content you'll have to wait because expansions take sometimes years to develope. Infact I remember somewhere back in Beta the devs talking about how the expansion for EQ2 was already underway before the game was even released. If it's uber gear only accessable by hardcore raiding you're looking for you're not going to find it here unless SoE decides to change their goals for EQ2. There is no quick fix or bandaid the devs can throw out right now to make you happy.I remember back in Everquest 1 when Kunark was but a distant dream everyone sitting around in Lower Guk complaining about lack of things to do, PvP sucked, too many bugs, nerfs coming down still. Then came the Planes and everyone was happy for a few months, and then finally the shining light of Kunark fell upon us and Everquest shot into the stratusphere of fun. We had the same naysayers as you claiming the end game sucked till the Planes came out, and they still wimpered till Kunark hit even.... If you don't want to wait for expansions or adventure packs to deliver more content then there isn't honestly anything SoE or any Game Developer can do for you. WoW is running into the same problem, and they only hit it faster because their game is even easier to level up in. Everyone looks at the 5 years of content Everquest 1 has behind it and [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] about why the new games only out for 5 months can't have the same thing! /boggleEdit: Just an FYI, I probably started EQ2 2 months before you did during Beta. I didn't like the Fury so I rerolled as an SK so now I have 2 characters nearing level 30 instead of 1 character in the 40s. Maybe you should try making another character and exploring other parts of the game? I find it impossible to believe you did every zone, every boss, every quest available from level 1-50 all in the first time playing through.<p>Message Edited by Baelzharon on <span class=date_text>03-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:53 AM</span>

[Melamp]

amen stylin, we're on the same page

[Ethi]

<DIV>Well while I agree with some of the high end comments its not reasonable to expect that any game would have unlimited gameplay.  If you play 100 hours per week you are going to run out of content before the devs have time to build it out.  I think that's just common sense.  I'm sure that they will fix it in a couple months and certainly before the majority of people hit it.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So in the mean time role up another character, play the oposite city.  Continue to provide valuable feedback about whats broken or missing.  Or play another game for awhile....  It might be good to have a lvl 35 character setup to do the D'Morte expansion.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There really isn't any other choices.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In terms of dev focus I think they need to focus on the content at the beginning of the game and just ahead of the wave.   The raid stuff is unfortunately gonna be the last stuff to get focused on overall...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh one more thing, Mentoring.  That gives a whole new venue for high lvl players.  Frankly I'm seeing it as a godsend.  At 41, I've been leveling as slow as I can to not outstrip my friends to badly.  Now I can level as fast as I want.  </DIV><p>Message Edited by Ethion on <span class=date_text>03-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:38 PM</span>

[Valhu]

<DIV>You people have basicly finished the game as it stands now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When I buy a game and feel like I have done everything I can do, I go buy a diferent one.... for console games I feel pretty happy if I get 40-70 hours of game play out of it... 100+ and I'm extatic.... how many have you put into EQ2?  Several hundred hours from the sound of it.... why are you crying your eyes out?  There is obviously only SO MUCH CONTENT in a game.... they want to give you more, but they want you to pay for more content if possible... that is how they pay for the development of the initial product.... the monthly charge is for support/fixes and customer service.... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Whether or not you are getting your monthly fee.... you definetly got your money's worth on the original investment.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh... and cause a gamer is casual does not mean they started a month later than you.... that is a bad as$umption</DIV>

[Styl]

<DIV>I guess I need to break this down pebble level so you all understand what we are saying.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1.  We are not complaining that we hit level 50, trashed all the mobs and are now bored.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2.  We are not saying we want more expansions with higher level content.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3.  Everyone assumes we powerleveled to 50 and beat everything....thus its our fault the high end content sucks.  Even if we did Powerlevel to 50, the very 1st time we started taking down different level 50 raid mobs we should have been impressed with some of the loot.  We never were.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is what We Are Saying.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1.  The level 50 content is not worth even doing the 1st time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2.  Zoneing into a small compact zone and dropping a Raid mob then zoneing out and going to the next is not fun.  Not even the 1st time.  The fun is fighting your way through hundred's of mobs, to finally get to the end boss for a climax.</DIV> <DIV>When you just run through lvl 1-20 zones....click on a door and BAMB....fighting a lvl 54^^^ group 4, is Boring as hell.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3.  The loot from the level 50 content is subpar at best.  And its not because we already have this loot and are getting the same drops,  its because the loot has SUCKED from day 1.  The raid loot has never been good PERIOD.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't expect sony to cater to the powergamers.  But I do expect the loot to be worth the amount of people and the time required to get it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And once again, i'm not talking about the hours upon hours of powerleveling up to take stuff down.  I'm talking about the time it takes to get 24 people online, get them all to run half way across norrath.  To wipe 20 different times to finally get a strat down.</DIV> <DIV>I talking about the time it takes to actually kill a decent raid mob.  The reward should be worth it, so far it never has been.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some will say give it a few expansions and the content will be better.  The content should have been decent to begin with!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>People say sony is catering to the casual player.  Does this mean when the average level of the server hits 50, sony will take the time out to put in decent loot worth raiding for?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If thats the case, I need to just quit now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=5>Requardless of how long it takes you to hit 50, the loot and fun of raiding should be there ready and waiting for when you do.  And right now, its far from that.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have no problem with raiding the same mobs over and over again.  But its just not worth it.  Not even worth killing the 1st time, other then the fact of saying you did it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Stylin on <SPAN class=date_text>03-10-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:36 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Stylin on <span class=date_text>03-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:41 PM</span>

[Zerofault]

<DIV>Baelzharon, whats wanted is raid content that is already in the game to be NOT BROKEN, we want raid loot to be Easily distinguishable from the avg players loot.  We want the game to remain fun and rewarnding at lvl 50.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lodoz</DIV>

[Thesp]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zerofault wrote:<BR> <DIV>we want raid loot to be Easily distinguishable from the avg players loot.  <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>This is a wonderful display of the arrogance that is commonplace among many so-called uber guilds. They think that their gear should be 100x better than everyone elses and the problem is that eqlive reinforced that idea many times over. Raiding is not the only avenue of advancement, although I'm sure some of you would like it to be. Why is it so bad that someone can harvest a rare and have an item made for them that is just as good as your raid loot? Its not like its exactly commonplace to find tier 5 rares. A common misconception is that if an item is crafted that therefore it will be easily attainable, that simply isn't the case. Consider that this game is designed for 200 levels and that these level 50 raid mobs will not always be the end-game and I think that things line up pretty good atm. Perhaps there could be a slight increase the chances for a master chest, but not a guaranteed drop.

[Melamp]

<blockquote><hr>Thespar wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Zerofault wrote:<BR><DIV>we want raid loot to be Easily distinguishable from the avg players loot. <HR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>This is a wonderful display of the arrogance that is commonplace among many so-called uber guilds. They think that their gear should be 100x better than everyone elses and the problem is that eqlive reinforced that idea many times over. Raiding is not the only avenue of advancement, although I'm sure some of you would like it to be. Why is it so bad that someone can harvest a rare and have an item made for them that is just as good as your raid loot? Its not like its exactly commonplace to find tier 5 rares. A common misconception is that if an item is crafted that therefore it will be easily attainable, that simply isn't the case. Consider that this game is designed for 200 levels and that these level 50 raid mobs will not always be the end-game and I think that things line up pretty good atm. Perhaps there could be a slight increase the chances for a master chest, but not a guaranteed drop.<hr></blockquote>OMGI really don't have a problem with casual gamers but that is the attitude i can't stand.You want your gear to be on par with someone else's right?ok that's fine.But why should the gear you get from duoing or 1 grping a mob while xping no less be on par with the gear that someone else gets that had to have to help of 23 guildmates...spending an hour to work their way down to that mob? Why explain that?I would really like to hear from a person that spends 8 hours a week on the game why they think they should have just as good of stuff as someone that spends 8 hours a day and most of that killing things with a couple dozen friends?Risk vs. rewardas stylin said..there is high end risk right now...no need for a high end expansionbut there is no high end reward.currently 24 lvl 50's can go and kill every lvl 52-54^^^ grp X2/3/4 and only get a couple upgrades for their armor...that about 2 dozen mobs a week (more if you count the 4 instanced zones you can do nightly) 24 ppl doing it and only 2 pieces of armormeanwhile across the way a lvl 40 is xping when Bam they kill a mob and it drops a master chest and that item is on par, and most the time better than anything the lvl 50 raiding guild members are getting.

[Thesp]

<DIV>why should you get better gear just because you choose to spend time raiding? How is it more of a challenge to kill a name mob designed for 24 people as it is a named mob designed for 6? The fact that you have to gather more people is irrelevant to the actual encounter, you're being rewarded for defeating an encounter for which your "group" is equally matched to (whether its a raid or a single group is irrelevant). There should be quests and single group encounters that offer rewards equal to that of the rewards on raids.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Raiding is one style of play that is no better nor worse than any other style, be it questing, soloing or single grouping. Just the fact that some of you think its a given that raid loot will always be far superior to anything else in the game is proposterous and just displays the arrogance that I describe.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PS. for the record. I play everyday for at least 2-3 hours a day minimum and usually around 6-8. I'm in a guild that raids on occasion and I was in the top uber guild on my eqlive server for 2.5 years, so I'm not some 2 hr/wk player thats complaining I can't get the best items.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Thespar on <span class=date_text>03-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:54 PM</span>

[alf]

<DIV> ok one question for the power/raiding players.</DIV> <DIV>you guys all complain about the little reward you get from raiding mobs.</DIV> <DIV>so if its not reward at all you will stop raiding and  playing?</DIV> <DIV>i mean i  have done many quest and it have been alot of fun and i will do them againg  even is not reward on them</DIV> <DIV>i will do them just for the fun of it, remmber this is a game and you play it to have fun.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>this complain of powerplayer is not about eq2, you can visist all the multiplayer games forums and is the same</DIV> <DIV>alittle grp of powerplayers want something else to do because  they are bore.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Styl]

<DIV>This one is simple.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes you might do the quests over and over again, even if you done them before.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BUT </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You are still advancing.  So there is some positive aspect to doing it over and over again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At level 50 there is no more advancing.  So when the loot is crap, in no way does it pay to do stuff over and over again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Thespar asked </STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if it was really more difficult to kill a group mob VS. a Raid mob?</DIV> <DIV>This one is pretty much a no brainer here.  You must not have been in the high end game of EQL like you claim, or those words would have never come out your mouth.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Group mobs = the chance that 1 in 6 might screw up and cause you to wipe.  Average fight lasts about 5 min tops.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Raid mob = the chance that 1 in 24 might screw up and you wipe.  Seen fights last about 2 hours.  ( drath before the nurf )</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text>How hard is it to find a well balanced group of 6 players and have them work together vs getting 4 well balanced groups and haveing them work together.</SPAN></P> <P> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Stylin on <span class=date_text>03-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:08 PM</span>

[Miral]

<DIV>whats needed is more 30- stuff... theres a lot of stuff in 30's 40's and even at 50, but nothing really fun in the teens or 20s...</DIV>

[Melamp]

<blockquote><hr>Thespar wrote:<DIV>why should you get better gear just because you choose to spend time raiding? How is it more of a challenge to kill a name mob designed for 24 people as it is a named mob designed for 6? The fact that you have to gather more people is irrelevant to the actual encounter, you're being rewarded for defeating an encounter for which your "group" is equally matched to (whether its a raid or a single group is irrelevant). There should be quests and single group encounters that offer rewards equal to that of the rewards on raids.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Raiding is one style of play that is no better nor worse than any other style, be it questing, soloing or single grouping. Just the fact that some of you think its a given that raid loot will always be far superior to anything else in the game is proposterous and just displays the arrogance that I describe.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>PS. for the record. I play everyday for at least 2-3 hours a day minimum and usually around 6-8. I'm in a guild that raids on occasion and I was in the top uber guild on my eqlive server for 2.5 years, so I'm not some 2 hr/wk player thats complaining I can't get the best items.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Thespar on <span class=date_text>03-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:54 PM</span><hr></blockquote>Why, easy it's because of the risk....you fight a one grpable named mob and if it turns on someone besides the main tank it's not a dire emergency.Yet you let a grpx4 epic mob turn on a non fighter and that person is dead.A mob like VoV does a grp AE for over 2000 damage in one hit..this means that even a lvl 50 buffed caster goes from full health to red in one attack.What special effects do regular named mobs have? AEs and barrage...please...get a mob that does Knockback (cursed) or a very powerful AE (VoV) and see what the difference is.as you can see the CHALLENGE of a 24 person mob vs. a 6 person mob is very vast..yet the loot is not. Why should there be single grp encounters that have the same rewards as 4grp encounters thats dumb...that's beyond dumb...matter of fact get rid of named mobs...get rid of grpable mobs...let every solo mob drop 500ac 20 mana regen 20 to all stat 60hp/power items...I don't wanna have to put effort in to the game so make all those mobs just have 1 hit point...please if i don't get to play for a day give me a 10x xp bonus.get real

[Thesp]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stylin wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Thespar asked </STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if it was really more difficult to kill a group mob VS. a Raid mob?</DIV> <DIV>This one is pretty much a no brainer here.  You must not have been in the high end game of EQL like you claim, or those words would have never come out your mouth.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Group mobs = the chance that 1 in 6 might screw up and cause you to wipe.  Average fight lasts about 5 min tops.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Raid mob = the chance that 1 in 24 might screw up and you wipe.  Seen fights last about 2 hours.  ( drath before the nurf )</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text>How hard is it to find a well balanced group of 6 players and have them work together vs getting 4 well balanced groups and haveing them work together.</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Actually, I wasn't talking about random, non-named xp mobs but rather encounters designed for a single group. Take for example some of the boat rides, while its trivial when you have out leveled the content, its extremely challenging for a group of appropriate leveled players. Or try to take on a mob like Varsoon with a group he still cons orange to, you pretty much gotta be on the top of your game to take down those encounters if you don't just outlevel them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Setup time is completely irrelevant like I stated earlier, both can be a challenge or completely trivial depending on the size of your guild. Large guilds that have 40-50 members online during primetime hours will have very little challenge putting together a raid of 24 people, in fact, they'll probably have to turn people away. One could argue that in a group of 6, one persons screw up is more costly because there are only 5 other people to cover for you whereas a raid of 24 has 23 other people that can help to pick up the slack. Also, there is nothing inheritly extraneous about the duration of a raid encounter vs a group encounter, both can be as long and as short as the developers design them to be. There could easily be a single group encounter designed to last 2 hrs or more and likewise you can make a raid encounter that takes 30 sec but is the most intense 30 sec around. Oh, and your question about how hard is it to get people working together, again it can be as easy or as complicated as your guild allows. If you try to take 4 random pickup groups and try to form a raid it will be very difficult but if you have a guild that can easily bring 24 that are used to working together it can be completely trivial. Its as hard or as easy as the people you bring.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All-in-all there is nothing special about raid encounters vs any other named encounter.</DIV>

[Melamp]

<blockquote><hr>Thespar wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Stylin wrote:<BR><DIV> </DIV><DIV><STRONG>Thespar asked </STRONG></DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>i<BR><DIV>Actually, I wasn't talking about random, non-named xp mobs but rather encounters designed for a single group. Take for example some of the boat rides, while its trivial when you have out leveled the content, its extremely challenging for a group of appropriate leveled players. l them.</DIV><hr></blockquote>I remember being lvl 25 and doing those boat rides to EL/zek and being so excited about them to.Of course this was in middle/late Nov...back then we did them with weapons/armor/spells that we personally picked up along the way....There were no high lvl crafters...there was not 2000 other players that have been there are looted nice gear/rares and put them on the market. So to me..it was more challenging doing the encounter with app 2 or maybe if you were really lucky having a couple spells being adept one...where's now lvl 25 ppl are doing this stuff with weapons bought of higher/or other players...doing it with adept 3 spells or minimun app4/adept1.

[Cast]

<DIV>You and people like you are about as far off as you can get. The level 50's started before everyone? Please. Reroll like I did and try something new if you dont like it or beter yet hit the cancel button. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Theyve done everything? Sure they did. They raced to 50 and then went back and killed greys non stop to do the 300 quests they missed while power leveling, no wonder theyre bored.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You start making level 50 4 group mobs the only thing that drops certain things and it becomes evercamp all over. With the uber leet kiddie guilds that have no lives outside of the game the only ones able to do them. It becomes that all over again and youll see more people drop off then you people whining here.</DIV>

[Nobol]

To much "powergamer" hate in this thread, becuase we all know after 4 months of release, we are supposed to be level 20.It is kind of [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] considering, we are basiclly testing high end content and making it better for you, if you ever reach it.<p>Message Edited by Nobolis on <span class=date_text>03-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:58 AM</span>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zerofault wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff00> *snipped*</FONT></DIV> <DIV>There needs to be a distinction between casual and hardcore gamers... </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff00>*snipped*</FONT></DIV> <DIV>Lodoz - Nektulos</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I always thought the lvl is the measurement. </P> <P>Or should a 11th lvl alt of a *hardcore* gamer appear to be something better than an 12th lvl main of a *casual* player?<BR></P>

[wr4ithd0]

<DIV>Happens all the time ,  evey MMORPG I've played, people rush to the 'finish' in this case level 50.  Funny how the 'finishline' means that you are done huh?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And this is how it will play out:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>See you later guys, /waves goodbye to the level 50 players.  Expansion comes out.  Welcome back guys!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And then the cycle repeats.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And seriously, if you are playing 23/7, get a hobby, or a job, a life, a clue, get something. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Big Da]

<DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>To much "powergamer" hate in this thread, becuase we all know after 4 months of release, we are supposed to be level 20.<BR><BR>It is kind of [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] considering, we are basiclly testing high end content and making it better for you, if you ever reach it.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is very true; I for one am grateful that I get to play the game more along the lines of what the developers intended it to be. I would hate to have level up to 50 missing out on so much of the content because it was broken. Thanks Guys!<BR> <BR>The fact remains the majority player base is yet to break 30 or 40, so this is where the current focus should be, hence the level of the new expansion pack.<BR> <BR>I think the casual gamer is just trying to say, there is only a problem because you are out of step with the pace of the game. Have patience the high end content will come, when the rest of us catch up!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Iseabeil]

<DIV>i got game as soon as it came out, had played beta several months before that.</DIV> <DIV>as im unemployed, i play about 10 hours a day, and yet im not lvl 50....</DIV> <DIV>why? </DIV> <DIV>cause i dun rush it, knowing fully well that the high end IS broken and will REMAIN broken till the normal players approeach late 30's early 40's.</DIV> <DIV>if ye have ever played a mmorpg before, yell know that this happens in every game, and there is no excuse for whining about lack of somethin that everybody already should have known thered be a lack of.</DIV>

[Baelzharon]

<blockquote><hr>Stylin wrote:<DIV>This is what We Are Saying.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>1. The level 50 content is not worth even doing the 1st time.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>2. Zoneing into a small compact zone and dropping a Raid mob then zoneing out and going to the next is not fun. Not even the 1st time. The fun is fighting your way through hundred's of mobs, to finally get to the end boss for a climax.</DIV><DIV>When you just run through lvl 1-20 zones....click on a door and BAMB....fighting a lvl 54^^^ group 4, is Boring as hell.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>3. The loot from the level 50 content is subpar at best. And its not because we already have this loot and are getting the same drops, its because the loot has SUCKED from day 1. The raid loot has never been good PERIOD.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I have no problem with raiding the same mobs over and over again. But its just not worth it. Not even worth killing the 1st time, other then the fact of saying you did it.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><P>Message Edited by Stylin on <SPAN class=date_text>03-10-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:36 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Stylin on <span class=date_text>03-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:41 PM</span><hr></blockquote>So it looks like your main issue is with the loot from raids not being up to your standards, and the raids themselves being too simple? The Devs have been tuning the loot in the end game, but I guess not fast enough for you. If you remember a while back most of the mobs in the end game didn't even have loot tables, and it's only now that the devs are getting a chance to address it. You're being impatient and rude about it to top it off.Now on your 2nd complaint, the devs early on didn't want to replicate EQ1 by creating these long drawn out raids where you needed to kill 1442312454 worthless mobs before getting to the end. Their goal was to make raid encounters that were tactically challenging and not just requiring 24 warm bodies to stay awake for 5 hours, which if I guess from your statements is what you want. This is not Everquest 1, repeat that 20 times out loud and hopefully it will sink in to your head. Now, if you think the end game content is simply too easy then feedback it and let the devs know. They probably need to tune the encounters still. How many times have you or any high end guild actually /feedback "This is too easy, make it harder for me!".

[yes4]

<P>I defined a casual player as someone who just plays the game for 1-2 hour MAX and leave. EQ2 is not really for the casual players. A casual player will miss a lot of content:</P> <P>- He will not harvest for hours to get a rare item.<BR>- He will never see what an expensive house look like.<BR>- He will never buy a horse because he doesn't play enough to make money.<BR>- He will rarely ever update a spell.<BR>- He will never sell stuffs on the broker.<BR>- He will probably not spend too much time doing tradeskill because this is a lot of time wasted.<BR>- He will never be in a raid because he doesn't have the time for that.</P> <P><BR>EQ2 is not really for hardcore players too for all the reasons mentioned in the first post.<BR>We want the basic of the game fixed, and not see everything changing after each patch.<BR>It is stupid! Some players have wasted a lot of effort and time to develop (what they were hoping to be) the best character only to find out that it got nerf.</P> <P><BR>New contents? New expansions? What is that for? Contents/spells/quests/rewards/tradeskill are still broken. Why are we going to spend more money:<BR>- for a zone that just look identical to the other ones?<BR>- for a zone that requires a full raid level 50 to enter, fight and gain some ridiculous reward?<BR>- for more bugs?</P> <P>Well Sony, you can't have both world at the same time. You gotta to know how to balance the game a lot better.</P> <P><BR>My friend and myself seem to have a hard time playing beyond level 30:<BR>- 99% of the monsters are the same.<BR>- New spells/armors/zones are just upgrades of the old ones.<BR>- It is very hard to solo some gray (!) monsters.<BR>- Everything is a lot more expensive: Food, drinks, equipments, spells, tradeskill, etc... yet you make virtually the same money a few levels ago.<BR>- Buying new expansions? No thanks. EQ2 is already enough painfulfull like this. I am not interested.<BR>- Playing a new character? What is new? Everything starts pretty much the same until you do your subclass. And then everything becomes suddenly way too difficult.</P> <P><BR>Regarding level 50 players, all I can do is sympathize.<BR>I am sure you all find Diablo2 a lot better than Everquest2. In Diablo2, you could level up all the way to level 99, but as you fought harder and harder monsters, you got better drops.<BR>In EQ2, the effort for level 25 and 50 seems to be about the same. It makes no sense. It is like saying all golf amateur tournaments and professional tournaments should have the same winning price.</P> <P><BR>EQ2 has so much potential but forget the game contents over the pretty looks.<BR>- It has wonderful graphics<BR>- You can customize the GUI so much<BR>- Sony has wonderful ideas with the enchanter class and tradeskill.</P> <P>But the rest is just plain dry and terrible.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>You read it wrong, Baelzharon.<BR>- He is complaining how complicated and difficult it is to gather a full level 50 raid to do a 2+ hours epic adventure.<BR>- He is complaining about the reward that sucks in the end.<BR>- He is complaining the difficulty to win any epic game.</P> <P>I guess he may also complain about:<BR>- The cost of fixing the gear, buy ammo for the ranger, just to get ready for the next raid<BR>- The extreme high damage done by some monsters</P> <P>He is not complaining about:<BR>- "long drawn out raids where you needed to kill 1442312454 worthless mobs before getting to the end".<BR>That's already done in a different way!! According to him, raids take at the bare minimum 2 hours for a worthless reward. It is about the same as fighting an incredible amount of worthless mobs.<BR>- "raid encounters that were tactically challenging and not just requiring 24 warm bodies to stay awake for 5 hours, which if I guess from your statements is what you want"<BR>That's also not true. According to these level 50 players, this is currently the case!!</P> <P><BR>What non-50-level players should learn is where we are heading to. If Sony is not changing anything, we will be also disgusted once we reach level 50. Until then, we should enjoy as much as we can.</P> <P> </P> <P><BR>PS: Don't even talk to me about EQ1. I didn't play it, and Sony has already mentioned EQ2 is NOT even close to EQ1.</P><p>Message Edited by yes4me on <span class=date_text>03-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:47 AM</span>

[Big Da]

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>I defined a casual player as someone who just plays the game for 1-2 hour MAX and leave. EQ2 is not really for the casual players. A casual player will miss a lot of content:</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>Definitely a flawed definition of a casual player; a casual player could play ten hours straight one day and then not play for a week. The whole definition would lead to casual play styles being inconsistent.</DIV> <DIV><BR>- He will not harvest for hours to get a rare item. Not true (just over several days)<BR>- He will never see what an expensive house look like. Not true (you can see them now!)<BR>- He will never buy a horse because he doesn't play enough to make money. Not true (just not for a while)<BR>- He will rarely ever update a spell. Not true (to pointless to address)<BR>- He will never sell stuffs on the broker. Not true (can leave a pc on without playing)<BR>- He will probably not spend too much time doing tradeskill because this is a lot of time wasted. Not true (completely up to the player!)<BR>- He will never be in a raid because he doesn't have the time for that. Not true (it may be the only thing he does on EQ that week.)<BR>I’m sorry but a casual player is just taking a longer amount of time to get to where the hard core are now, how he spends this time has nothing to do with when he plays.</DIV>

[Shazzbott_Feldercarb]

<blockquote><hr>yes4me wrote:A lot of stuff.<hr></blockquote>I was a little offended at how you described my playing choices. I am a casual player, my play time is the 1 to 2 hours in the morning I have before heading to work.During that time, I may work towards completeing a quest, spend some time harvesting for my raw materials (I craft), make up a set of crafting components, make up a set of finished components, or explore.Sometimes, I don't feel like playing so I'll just leave my guy in his house in north freeport selling items.I do upgrade my spells/skills whenever possible, most are App4 with some Adept 1-3s when I can.About the only thing I don't do is raid, because that requires more time then I have to play, but that is ok.As to your statement about EQ2 not being for hardcore players for the reason you list, I find that odd. A hardcore player will want the best of everthing, spells, armor, housing, anything that makes him look impressive. He will spend a great deal of time raiding, trying to be the first to get that new item.As for expansions/new zones. MMOs games must keep evolving or die. The really good companies have multiple groups of developers working (some on expansions, some on maintenance).I'll assume that the "you can't have both worlds at the same time" comment is about solo/group. I'll say why not? My time places me mostly in the solo arena and so far I'm doing ok. On the rare occasion I play later, I've found the group experince to be rewarding as well.For you and your friend, have you tried the new instanced content(you know those expansions you complained about). The are geared towards small groups/solo. Might help you out. As for everything getting more expensive as you level up, well, yes it does. Of course your drops get better too...I did enjoy your comparison to diablo 2. If this is what your previous experince is, then I can understand a little why you are troubled with EQ2. MMOs are VERY different from single player games. Its like comparing riding a bike to flying a jet. They both involve you going from one place to another, but that is about it.In the end of you post, you talk about "What non-50-level players should learn is where we are heading to. If Sony is not changing anything, we will be also disgusted once we reach level 50. Until then, we should enjoy as much as we can." So, you don't want Sony to add content, both free and fee (see your earlier comments about expansions), but you complain that they don't change anything?I am of the opinion(and this is only in reguards to you) that MMO games are not really for you. They almost all try to achieve a balance between solo/group, casual/hardcore and for the most part don't get there. As a result, they are always evolving, changing, growing. You might want to consider playing single player games instead. But that is only my opinion.ShazzHave a nice day.

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> yes4me wrote:<BR> <P>I defined a casual player as someone who just plays the game for 1-2 hour MAX and leave. EQ2 is not really for the casual players. A casual player will miss a lot of content:</P> <P>- He will not harvest for hours to get a rare item. <BR><FONT color=#99ff00>not in one session, aggreed and probably never because his 2 hours a day are to valuable for playing the harvest-loterry. HOWEVER if hes a crafter too he might devote a whole session to harvesting AND get more rares than you (because its a lottery *lol*)<BR></FONT>- He will never see what an expensive house look like.<BR><FONT color=#99ff00>probably he will never OWN one but he can visit people in vendor mode any time in their penthouse suits (like I did at when I realized I could)</FONT><BR>- He will never buy a horse because he doesn't play enough to make money.<BR><FONT color=#99ff00>"never" is bull$hit par excellence, about the lvl the hardcoregamer could afford it, he'll be able to afford it too - maybe horses will even be re-nerfed by then :smileyvery-happy:</FONT><BR>- He will rarely ever update a spell.<BR><FONT color=#99ff00>same as above</FONT><BR>- He will never sell stuffs on the broker.<BR><FONT color=#99ff00>casual players might have a live while others don't but they are entitled to have cable connections as much as hardcoregamers. Therefore he'll probably sell MORE stuff because he plays for 2 hours a day and is in vendor mode the remaining 22 hours<BR></FONT>- He will probably not spend too much time doing tradeskill because this is a lot of time wasted.<BR><FONT color=#99ff00>I'd wish you'd let others decide for themselfes if TS is a lot wasted time</FONT><BR>- He will never be in a raid because he doesn't have the time for that.<BR><FONT color=#99ff00>the only point I fully agree because raids ARE very time-consuming</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>But the whole point is that I ask myself what problems you have with the existance of casual gamers. </P> <P>After all YOU CLAIM THAT THEY DON'T DO RAIDS so they wont shove their opinion about raids down your throat here in the forums or in-game.</P><p>Message Edited by Tradeskill_Addict on <span class=date_text>03-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:09 AM</span>

[Baelzharon]

<blockquote><hr>yes4me wrote:<P>I defined a casual player as someone who just plays the game for 1-2 hour MAX and leave. EQ2 is not really for the casual players. A casual player will miss a lot of content:</P><P>- He will not harvest for hours to get a rare item.<BR>- He will never see what an expensive house look like.<BR>- He will never buy a horse because he doesn't play enough to make money.<BR>- He will rarely ever update a spell.<BR>- He will never sell stuffs on the broker.<BR>- He will probably not spend too much time doing tradeskill because this is a lot of time wasted.<BR>- He will never be in a raid because he doesn't have the time for that.</P><P><hr></blockquote>I think you're idea of what a casual player is or isn't is a bit off. I classify myself as a casual player because my amount of freetime only allows 2-3 hour chunks of game play at a time, with more time on the weekend depending on what's going on in my RL. I probably play 20-25 hours a week where 1/2 of that is on the Weekends. Since release I've been able to level up to 34 Alchemist, 27 SK with probably the best gear you'll ever see on a 27 character. I've also had the time to level up a 28 Fury. I've been on raids, baught a horse (for my wifes character) and sold about 150g worth of crap on the vendor with 60g currently in my bank. When I do get those 2-3 hour chunks I play intense and have fun. I used to play EQ1 6+ hours a day and 40-50 hours week and I have no desire to ever go back to doing that again, and nor do I wish to play a game that requires me to have to do so to get access to all the content ever again.

[Zerofault]

<DIV>Thespar, you call me arrogant... well I call you Ignorant... You have NO idea of the problems that lvl 50's face...  Eq2 and any game should be able to keep casual and high end gamers happy alike.  I will also call you arrogant...  Not sure how you think the casual gamer should have gear on par with the hardcore player.  That is arrogant and rediculous.  YOU are being very selfish with your thinking.  Yes there IS GEAR that is great that the casual gamer can get, they are called HERITAGE quests, they take time, but are broken down enough to where you could take a month completing all the tasks if you so wanted...  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hey, you may call me arrogant... which I won't deny totally... but at least i'm not Ignorantly arrogant....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lodoz</DIV>

[JohnJac]

<DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>There is absolutely NO arguements that make any sense against better and more high end raid content...  I also think the best items should only be gotten from raids... with group named being close second...  Risk vs Reward is TOTALLY lacking in eq2... Raids are fun the first time around for the kill, then they become fun for the loot... not so in eq2...  I don't care about the casual gamer,  I am not a casual gamer...  I'm sure the casual gamer does care about the hardcore gamers, as you can tell by the flames.. they are jealous and think they deserve the same equipment in 2 hours a day that some put 12 hours a day into... thats rediculous.  There needs to be a distinction between casual and hardcore gamers...  As it works in life, so should eq2... the more of yourself you put into something, the more you should recieve from it.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would have to agree with this as well, this is probably why I kept on playing eq1.  I mean when you see that "bob" has the newest, best item, "xyz with UBER stats" you want to work towards that.  However, I do agree that when PoP came out, there were just more and more and more uber items to work towards to.  Up to the point to where I would just give up, and did.  All in all I had a great time I guess in eq1.  I think that there is a fine line between getting that uber item to having to worry about the uber items that were just released in "abc expansion".  There should be items to look forward to, however don't make it too overwhelming.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Obviously not just items should be looked forward to, but maybe adding content that would allow your character to do something special, like the aa's, those were pretty fun.  Adventuring in general is fun too, maybe releasing zones that would allow you to just adventure, with the ability to walk into the lvl 70's zone and not having to be with a raid.  This is probably one aspect that takes away from this game, imo all the instancing should be gone, we should be allowed to walk into every zone, whether Im level 10 or 149.  I loved to walk into zones where I had to worry about stuff attackin me, its because it made it just that, FUN.  This, of course, is all in my opinion <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.  cheers.</DIV></DIV>

[Namil]

<DIV>The problem is not with the game - Edited because the point I made here has already been stated by someone else:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> "<FONT color=#ffff00>I'm sure the casual gamer does care about the hardcore gamers, as you can tell by the flames.. they are jealous and think they deserve the same equipment in 2 hours a day that some put 12 hours a day into... thats rediculous.  There needs to be a distinction between casual and hardcore gamers...  As it works in life, so should eq2... the more of yourself you put into something, the more you should recieve from it."</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for a definition of who is casual and who is hardcore, you would have to take the average time played by every user across every server to find the middle ground then anyone 16% below that, could be considered casual and 16% above that, could be considered hardcore. </DIV> <DIV>I know plenty of people that think 10 hours a week is casual and some that think 20-25 hours a week is well above casual or hardore. So basically casual or hardcore without hard numbers is limited to the view of the player.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I play about 20-25 hours sometimes more sometimes less but I dont consider myself to be casual or hardcore. I am in the middle range i would think.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Namilla on <span class=date_text>03-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:01 AM</span>

[Big Da]

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>Thespar, you call me arrogant... well I call you Ignorant... You have NO idea of the problems that lvl 50's face...  Eq2 and any game should be able to keep casual and high end gamers happy alike.  I will also call you arrogant...  Not sure how you think the casual gamer should have gear on par with the hardcore player.  That is arrogant and rediculous.  YOU are being very selfish with your thinking.  Yes there IS GEAR that is great that the casual gamer can get, they are called HERITAGE quests, they take time, but are broken down enough to where you could take a month completing all the tasks if you so wanted... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hey, you may call me arrogant... which I won't deny totally... but at least i'm not Ignorantly arrogant....</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Although I don’t agree with the above post it did make me smile! :smileyhappy:<BR> <BR>Today I’m not going to be arrogant, but the ignorance of the poster who describes another poster as ignorant while himself being nonsensical and denigrating, that is worth a comment!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What is the difference between a level 32 hard-core player and a level 32 casual player? Any thoughts?<BR> <BR>After that I’m sure I could be described as supercilious and hopefully capricious.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As an aside to Namilla, the casual players are the ones working hard in the real world! We have not got the time to spend all day on a game. That is a sad waste of ones life. However we do like games and so when we have free time to spend may choose to spend it that way, just not all of it! Power gamers want an advantage over the rest of us that they simply don't have. I'm sorry but again this is not evercamp, not EQ1! Please stop telling those who spend time on their real lives what the benefits are, we already know!</DIV><p>Message Edited by Big Dave on <span class=date_text>03-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:09 PM</span>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Namilla wrote:<BR> <DIV> (witch is not a good thing). <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>depends on the witch - I knew some who where quite bad but did me GOOD nonetheless :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>Regarding the rest of your post it seems you dont talk about <EM>hardcore vs casual </EM>but <EM>solo vs group </EM>player. Have you got a problem if a  soloer gets equal good drops to what a guilded player can loot?</P> <P>Do you want that soloers are excluded from all the GOOD stuff? If yes, I am interested how that should benefit the game and the broad majority of players... </P>

[Baelzharon]

Well to put some positive spin on this thread I think we should try and come up with ideas that support both types of players. Something I've thought of that could work would be having the same uber loot found off boss mobs be available via quests. This way the Hardcore raiders can get their instant gratification by raiding the content and getting their gear at a pace they can dictate. Soloers and non-raid oriented players can get access to the same content by stepping through quests that better meet their playtime, and pure casual players will have the choice of going either route when they get to that level in the game. I have full confidence that the devs will have the loot tables fixed in due time. I think we owe it to the devs and ourselves to help them get it fixed and provide some positive feedback on how to make it better going forward. Bickering here on the boards and making gross assumptions about eachother isn't going to get anything accomplished other then getting this thread locked. So lets do some constructive reasoning here and get the ideas flowing.

[aeio]

I for one am glad this isn't EQ1. I just hope the developers don't screw things up, and cater to the minority uber raid guilds. Most people don't want to play the game like that, and want a chance at rewards. Your complaining just solidifies that they have actually done what they intended to do.Making it so only the best rewards come from constant uber-raiding is nice for about 2% of the playerbase. There rest of us thinks it sucks.EQ2 from its inception has been touted as a much more casual friendly game. With that, you can't just demand that all the rewards go to your particular playstyle. They already have a game designed for your playstyle. They are doing something different here.I can keep my fingers crossed that they continue to work on balancing the two, but the scale should NEVER tip in favor of people who only want to raid.<p>Message Edited by aeiouy on <span class=date_text>03-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:28 AM</span>

[aeio]

<blockquote><hr>Thespar wrote:<DIV>why should you get better gear just because you choose to spend time raiding? How is it more of a challenge to kill a name mob designed for 24 people as it is a named mob designed for 6? The fact that you have to gather more people is irrelevant to the actual encounter, you're being rewarded for defeating an encounter for which your "group" is equally matched to (whether its a raid or a single group is irrelevant). There should be quests and single group encounters that offer rewards equal to that of the rewards on raids.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Raiding is one style of play that is no better nor worse than any other style, be it questing, soloing or single grouping. Just the fact that some of you think its a given that raid loot will always be far superior to anything else in the game is proposterous and just displays the arrogance that I describe.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>PS. for the record. I play everyday for at least 2-3 hours a day minimum and usually around 6-8. I'm in a guild that raids on occasion and I was in the top uber guild on my eqlive server for 2.5 years, so I'm not some 2 hr/wk player thats complaining I can't get the best items.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Thespar on <span class=date_text>03-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:54 PM</span><hr></blockquote>Thespar is spot on here. The number of people that would abandon EQ2 if they want to uber raiders deserve the best of everything is many fold greater than the lose of the same people. They are going to try and keep everyone happy, but people are not going to be duped in to the EQ1 mentality. The game needs to stay focused around single groups. Soloing and Raiding need to be extra and on the outside. But the core element for loot, advancement and reward needs to be obtainable by single groups. If they stray from this, they are going to have a huge problem on their hands. Look at all the people who have been complaining for more solo content? You think those same people are going to be happy to get to level 50 and find out only uber raiders have access to the best items in the game?Rewards should be equivelent to time invested. If you choose to invest your time with 23 other people that is your choice. You should not be awarded unattainable gifts for doing it though.

[Melamp]

<blockquote><hr>aeiouy wrote:I for one am glad this isn't EQ1. I just hope the developers don't screw things up, and cater to the minority uber raid guilds. Most people don't want to play the game like that, and want a chance at rewards. Your complaining just solidifies that they have actually done what they intended to do.Making it so only the best rewards come from constant uber-raiding is nice for about 2% of the playerbase. There rest of us thinks it sucks.EQ2 from its inception has been touted as a much more casual friendly game. With that, you can't just demand that all the rewards go to your particular playstyle. They already have a game designed for your playstyle. They are doing something different here.I can keep my fingers crossed that they continue to work on balancing the two, but the scale should NEVER tip in favor of people who only want to raid.<p>Message Edited by aeiouy on <span class=date_text>03-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:28 AM</span><hr></blockquote>What catering is going on?Sometimes I think most the ppl on these forums can't read...at all..they see..hey i'm 50 and this is wrong..and they go on a tangent that we rushed to the finish....I myself..and I think others like me don't think hitting 50 is the finish...it's like getting a black belt in karate..to the outside world..and ones that won't stay with karate long they see this as a finish mark..when in fact it's a begging...getting a black belt and hitting lvl 50 just means you have the basics to go do complicated things..like training or raiding..with the difficulty of mobs in the high end you want as much HP/power/str etc. as you can get...you want all the spells that the game offers your class...this way you can judge an encounter vs. your class..you cannot judge a 52^^^ epic encounter because you're lacking about 300 hp...if you're a priest you don't have your big heal..etc etc. So by hitting 50 early they didn't want to ding then log out and say I win..they hit 50 and said I'm ready to use every ability i'm given to the best of my ability to help my friends and I.This post isn't about...Please make the next expansion for me as I have killed every mob in this game...it's about I've killed every mob in this game and at around lvl 45 the loot tables are rediculous and when you look at the epic encounters the loot is broken so bad that ppl are frustrated and are quitting, please fix that.Yet everyone reads this and thinks it's such a bad thing that these players that work HARD instead of working casually don't get rewarded..I'm sure casual players are happy..they've added more loot at the lower games..if you don't believe me look at patch notes...so lower lvl and casual players don't see the problem..they go in a zone with their grp and after 45 mins of xping a name pops and they kill it and it drops something nice that they can use...maybe it's so nice that they can't use it for 2-3 lvls..Hell I remember in Runnyeye back in the day the mobs like mudslinger and various others dropped loot that you couldn't wear till like lvl 42-43...this when I was 33-35...so Imagine the smile on your face when you get a item from kill a orange mob and getting loot that is way beyond anything you have.Then you get lvl 50 and should be able to wear anything that drops...and you're not xping anymore but you make plans to go deep in a zone and kill a mob that can drop ppl like flies if a small mistake is made..then you finally kill it and it drops lvl 43 adept ones spells...and no stat lvl 40 weapons.yet you constantly read patch notes where loot drops for lower lvls are getting better and quests are getting better rewards for those lvls...XP gain is getting faster (so that doesn't apply to you)You make a post asking devs to acknowledge the problem and you have casual players say..Boo, it takes 24 ppl to kill a mob, so what that loot should be the same as what I get by killing a mob that takes 6 ppl.

[Blindrage]

<DIV>I can't speak for the content or lack there of at level 50, but I do know that the reward 'should' be greater for killing a 54^^^ mob than a 35^^.  Casual or not casual, the mobs loot should get progressively better, or the only thing that differentiates a level 50 from a level 35 is spells and base stat increase.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't think Sony should cater to any crowd, I think there should be content and items in the game for each base of players.  Sure the casual players will take longer to get to the end, but hey, they are after all, playing casually.  They will never understand the mentality of the hardcore gamer.  I myself am in-between the two right now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EQ1 was a great game in my opinion, I hope they choose to take the same route with EQ2.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[RioR]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> aeiouy wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Thespar wrote:<BR> <DIV>why should you get better gear just because you choose to spend time raiding? How is it more of a challenge to kill a name mob designed for 24 people as it is a named mob designed for 6? The fact that you have to gather more people is irrelevant to the actual encounter, you're being rewarded for defeating an encounter for which your "group" is equally matched to (whether its a raid or a single group is irrelevant). There should be quests and single group encounters that offer rewards equal to that of the rewards on raids.</DIV> <DIV>Raiding is one style of play that is no better nor worse than any other style, be it questing, soloing or single grouping. Just the fact that some of you think its a given that raid loot will always be far superior to anything else in the game is proposterous and just displays the arrogance that I describe.</DIV> <DIV>PS. for the record. I play everyday for at least 2-3 hours a day minimum and usually around 6-8. I'm in a guild that raids on occasion and I was in the top uber guild on my eqlive server for 2.5 years, so I'm not some 2 hr/wk player thats complaining I can't get the best items.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Thespar on <SPAN class=date_text>03-10-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:54 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>Thespar is spot on here. The number of people that would abandon EQ2 if they want to uber raiders deserve the best of everything is many fold greater than the lose of the same people. They are going to try and keep everyone happy, but people are not going to be duped in to the EQ1 mentality. The game needs to stay focused around single groups. Soloing and Raiding need to be extra and on the outside. But the core element for loot, advancement and reward needs to be obtainable by single groups. If they stray from this, they are going to have a huge problem on their hands. Look at all the people who have been complaining for more solo content? You think those same people are going to be happy to get to level 50 and find out only uber raiders have access to the best items in the game?<BR><BR>Rewards should be equivelent to time invested. If you choose to invest your time with 23 other people that is your choice. You should not be awarded unattainable gifts for doing it though.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>This is the second time this week I agree with you. Please stop it. :smileywink:<BR>

[aeio]

<blockquote><hr>Melampus wrote:<blockquote><hr>aeiouy wrote:I for one am glad this isn't EQ1. I just hope the developers don't screw things up, and cater to the minority uber raid guilds. Most people don't want to play the game like that, and want a chance at rewards. Your complaining just solidifies that they have actually done what they intended to do.Making it so only the best rewards come from constant uber-raiding is nice for about 2% of the playerbase. There rest of us thinks it sucks.EQ2 from its inception has been touted as a much more casual friendly game. With that, you can't just demand that all the rewards go to your particular playstyle. They already have a game designed for your playstyle. They are doing something different here.I can keep my fingers crossed that they continue to work on balancing the two, but the scale should NEVER tip in favor of people who only want to raid.<p>Message Edited by aeiouy on <span class=date_text>03-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:28 AM</span><hr></blockquote>What catering is going on?Sometimes I think most the ppl on these forums can't read...at all..they see..hey i'm 50 and this is wrong..and they go on a tangent that we rushed to the finish....I myself..and I think others like me don't think hitting 50 is the finish...it's like getting a black belt in karate..to the outside world..and ones that won't stay with karate long they see this as a finish mark..when in fact it's a begging...getting a black belt and hitting lvl 50 just means you have the basics to go do complicated things..like training or raiding..with the difficulty of mobs in the high end you want as much HP/power/str etc. as you can get...you want all the spells that the game offers your class...this way you can judge an encounter vs. your class..you cannot judge a 52^^^ epic encounter because you're lacking about 300 hp...if you're a priest you don't have your big heal..etc etc. So by hitting 50 early they didn't want to ding then log out and say I win..they hit 50 and said I'm ready to use every ability i'm given to the best of my ability to help my friends and I.This post isn't about...Please make the next expansion for me as I have killed every mob in this game...it's about I've killed every mob in this game and at around lvl 45 the loot tables are rediculous and when you look at the epic encounters the loot is broken so bad that ppl are frustrated and are quitting, please fix that.Yet everyone reads this and thinks it's such a bad thing that these players that work HARD instead of working casually don't get rewarded..I'm sure casual players are happy..they've added more loot at the lower games..if you don't believe me look at patch notes...so lower lvl and casual players don't see the problem..they go in a zone with their grp and after 45 mins of xping a name pops and they kill it and it drops something nice that they can use...maybe it's so nice that they can't use it for 2-3 lvls..Hell I remember in Runnyeye back in the day the mobs like mudslinger and various others dropped loot that you couldn't wear till like lvl 42-43...this when I was 33-35...so Imagine the smile on your face when you get a item from kill a orange mob and getting loot that is way beyond anything you have.Then you get lvl 50 and should be able to wear anything that drops...and you're not xping anymore but you make plans to go deep in a zone and kill a mob that can drop ppl like flies if a small mistake is made..then you finally kill it and it drops lvl 43 adept ones spells...and no stat lvl 40 weapons.yet you constantly read patch notes where loot drops for lower lvls are getting better and quests are getting better rewards for those lvls...XP gain is getting faster (so that doesn't apply to you)You make a post asking devs to acknowledge the problem and you have casual players say..Boo, it takes 24 ppl to kill a mob, so what that loot should be the same as what I get by killing a mob that takes 6 ppl.<hr></blockquote>Wanting better loot than comes off group mobs is wanting to be catered too... You need to go back and read all the comments, including the original post where a sense of entitlement is felt because they raid mobs.You are right, I don't think you deserve more or better loot than me. You deserve to get it sooner because you play more than me, but you don't deserve more loot simply because you have more time to play, or because you choose to play an uber guild.From the beginning they have stated EQ2 was going to be different from EQ1. As others mentioned they were targetting people who left EQ1, because EQ1 is still a viable concern. One of the big reasons a lot of people left EQ1 is because there was no real mechanism for non-uber-guild raiders to receive the best rewards. Heck some non-uber-guild raiders played a lot more than uber-guild players but still had no mechanism to receive the best items in the game, even though they worked harder at the game and invested more time.A lot of people don't want to see that same mechanism in EQ2, and the developers have as much as said that it is not going to be EQ1. If you want to raid and protect your precious uber loot from being a high-end raider, then I suggest you go back to EQ1.Otherwise realize there is a different dynamic at work here. They very may well choose to cater to high-end uber raiders and give them the best loot. If they do, though, I for one will be gone. This is about the only thing I can think of at this point that will make me quit. It is why I stopped playing EQ1, and they won't get 4+ years of my money before I quit this time.If you play 80 hours a week, and someone else plays 20 hours a week, they should be able to obtain equal rewards in 4 weeks for what you got in one. This notion that people should be rewarded for not having anything else to do is not appealing to most MMOG players.

[Melamp]

"Rewards should be equivelent to time invested. If you choose to invest your time with 23 other people that is your choice. You should not be awarded unattainable gifts for doing it though.Explain time invested...if six "hardcore/powergamers/experienced/organized" players get a quest they work well as a team, they figure the things out and they complete the quest in an hour.vsCasual player logs in..gets in a pickup grp..they all get the quest..they don't play as much (by definition of casual) and they haven't seen all the zones that the quests calls for and the mobs are a bit more difficult and it takes 1 1/2 hours to finish the same quest at the same lvl...do they deserve a better reward?time invested again... Raiding takes time...An exp grp can go to the middle of a zone and kill a named mob that is a 5 min fight.A raid grp goes in to that zone has to fight to the end of the zone to get to the epic mob..then that fight is a 20 min fight.is the time invested not greater?What do you mean unattainable gifts..do you mean the rewards for such a hard encouter shouldn't be given out?Do you mean that if I chose to solo I should be able to get the same rewards that ppl get from a mob that takes 24 ppl.why not get 24 lvl 50 casual players together and kill the same mob if you want the same loot?

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blindrage wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EQ1 was a great game in my opinion, I hope they choose to take the same route with EQ2.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Yes it was a great game -  I played it for some years. Like the dinosaurs where a great species - I find them fascinating!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But I hope mankind doesnt take the same route as the dinosaurs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And I like the evolved EQ2</DIV>

[Melamp]

<blockquote><hr>aeiouy wrote:<blockquote>.<hr></blockquote>Wanting better loot than comes off group mobs is wanting to be catered too... You need to go back and read all the comments, including the original post where a sense of entitlement is felt because they raid mobs.You are right, I don't think you deserve more or better loot than me. You deserve to get it sooner because you play more than me, but you don't deserve more loot simply because you have more time to play, or because you choose to play an uber guild.From the beginning they have stated EQ2 was going to be different from EQ1. As others mentioned they were targetting people who left EQ1, because EQ1 is still a viable concern. One of the big reasons a lot of people left EQ1 is because there was no real mechanism for non-uber-guild raiders to receive the best rewards. Heck some non-uber-guild raiders played a lot more than uber-guild players but still had no mechanism to receive the best items in the game, even though they worked harder at the game and invested more time.A lot of people don't want to see that same mechanism in EQ2, and the developers have as much as said that it is not going to be EQ1. If you want to raid and protect your precious uber loot from being a high-end raider, then I suggest you go back to EQ1.Otherwise realize there is a different dynamic at work here. They very may well choose to cater to high-end uber raiders and give them the best loot. If they do, though, I for one will be gone. This is about the only thing I can think of at this point that will make me quit. It is why I stopped playing EQ1, and they won't get 4+ years of my money before I quit this time.If you play 80 hours a week, and someone else plays 20 hours a week, they should be able to obtain equal rewards in 4 weeks for what you got in one. This notion that people should be rewarded for not having anything else to do is not appealing to most MMOG players.<hr></blockquote>[Removed for Content], it's not wanting to be catered to..it is wanted to be rewarded for time/work invested.Entitlement..if he doesn't feel that way then I'll tell you right now I do...If I get on the game...kill 100 mobs to get to a major encounter and kill it..i think I should get a reward..be it coin/loot or advancement on a quest. but these raid mobs are doing none of that.No one is saying they want better loot because we have time to play...we want the loot that drops off mobs to be better..so in a month when you are killing that mob you get the loot to...the same loot...yes, I said it..If i play 4x more than you, and I'm arrogant etc. I am still wanting you to get great loot when you kill the same mob in your own time...not in my time..I don't want you to change the amount of time you play just to get loot..you will hit lvl 50...even if you kill 1 mob a day..and when you hit 50 and your fight these mobs I want you to get loot to. I'm not going to horde it for myself..but it has to be in the game firstyes, I've gone through the FAQs and can see that this game isn't eq1...it's ran paraelle to eq1, 500 years in the future...never read that they wanted it to be for casual players...only read they won't it to be for ALL play stylesEQ1 wasn't catered to uber guilds in my opinion...how many zones had just 1 mob in it and that mob took 72 ppl to kill that had the best equipt. There were many many zones that had a boss mob in it but anyone could go in these zones and do quest and XP, I spent so many lvls/hours/days in SOL B that I still know every inch of the zone to this day...yet I can count the times I seen/did the boss mob on my hands..and many zones are like that..just cause a zone has a boss mob in it don't mean that zone isn't intended for non-uber guild players.This post included a mention of three high players that have quit out of frustration and they get labeled as whiners...yet you claim that if good loot is put on epic mob you will quitIMO,If you want to play at your on times and the amt of time you want.If you don't want to depend on other ppl to help you get better itemsIf you want to see every zone and every encounter in the game all by your self.If you want a chance to get every item in the gameIf you want to be able to kill every mob yourselfthen you don't need and MMORPG, MMOs are for getting ppl together..to meet and play and enjoy the company of othersGames like diablo where you can load it up and advance through lvls at your own pace..each mob is designed to be killed by you, you don't have to interact with ppl..you can get all the loot yourself, you can see every zone...that seems more like a game for you.

[Namil]

<DIV>Does anyone have any factual numbers on the majority or minority of the types of players in this game? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The basis of this solo vs raid argument is that there are more solo / non guild players in EQ2 then there are group / guild oriented players. But the fact is no one knows for sure. Yes there is solo content but that does not mean there are more solo players! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Since I have to guess, (due to the lack of fact) I would guess that the majority of people are not casual or solo but not hardcore raiders either. The majority of people are in guilds and like to group and go to new places and either do quests or make XP but when RL limits the amount of friends or guild mates that are on then they like to go solo for a while and see that solo content too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is nice to be able to solo but what is the point of having a Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game if your not going to join others and make new friends. Where is the challenge of taking down the Dragon King or fighting off an invasion of orcs. If you really want to be that secluded and antisocial then do it, but dont complain that you cant partake in something you choose not to partake in.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Namilla wrote:<BR> <DIV>Does anyone have any factual numbers on the majority or minority of the types of players in this game? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The basis of this solo vs raid argument is that there are more solo / non guild players in EQ2 then there are group / guild oriented players. But the fact is no one knows for sure. Yes there is solo content but that does not mean there are more solo players! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Since I have to guess, (due to the lack of fact) I would guess that the majority of people are not casual or solo but not hardcore raiders either. The majority of people are in guilds and like to group and go to new places and either do quests or make XP but when RL limits the amount of friends or guild mates that are on then they like to go solo for a while and see that solo content too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is nice to be able to solo but what is the point of having a Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game if your not going to join others and make new friends. Where is the challenge of taking down the Dragon King or fighting off an invasion of orcs. If you really want to be that secluded and antisocial then do it, but dont complain that you cant partake in something you choose not to partake in.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>So far in these forums are not many posts from soloers complaining they need a group to kill mob/finishquest/ get access/loot stuff. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But they are full of "raiders" complaining that there isnt enough *exclusive* loot for them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Which tells us....?</DIV>

[Valhu]

<DIV>" defined a casual player as someone who just plays the game for 1-2 hour MAX and leave. EQ2 is not really for the casual players. A casual player will miss a lot of content: <P>- He will not harvest for hours to get a rare item.<BR>- He will never see what an expensive house look like.<BR>- He will never buy a horse because he doesn't play enough to make money.<BR>- He will rarely ever update a spell.<BR>- He will never sell stuffs on the broker.<BR>- He will probably not spend too much time doing tradeskill because this is a lot of time wasted.<BR>- He will never be in a raid because he doesn't have the time for that."</P> <P> </P> <P>this is the most arrogant, crappy definition of a casual player i have ever seen.</P> <P> </P> <P>I AM a casual player.... I have 3 toons 11-31</P> <P>I have harvested 3 rares..... </P> <P>I have a 3 room house..... </P> <P>I won't care about buying a horse cause they are gimped... but I have made over 2 plat so far in sales (so i could have bought one)...... </P> <P>I have 10+ adept 3 spells between my toons ( and all others are ap 4 i made myself)..... </P> <P>I sell stuff on the broker all day while I am at work...... </P> <P>I am a 26 alchy, a 19 scholar and a 11 craftsman</P> <P>Oh... and maybe Bloodskull valley is not "much" of a raid... but it does take time to get 12 people with access (pre last patch) to go in and do it for lightstone... did it once myself and helped 2 other times... but maybe that does not meant you "definition" of a challange.</P> <P> </P> <P>And you are a clueless.... if i was going to define "hardcore gamer" with the same "intelligent flair" as you did casual... it would be</P> <P>/sarcasm on</P> <P>"He wants the biggest numbers on the server for his stats and loot over anyone else and wastes his life on that goal"</P> <P>/sarcasm off</P> <P>Is that real? NO.... you are very clueless if you really believe what you posted.</P></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Valhuru on <SPAN class=date_text>03-11-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:49 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Valhuru on <span class=date_text>03-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:55 AM</span>

[Cast]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Valhuru wrote:<BR> <DIV>" defined a casual player as someone who just plays the game for 1-2 hour MAX and leave. EQ2 is not really for the casual players. A casual player will miss a lot of content: <P>- He will not harvest for hours to get a rare item.<BR>- He will never see what an expensive house look like.<BR>- He will never buy a horse because he doesn't play enough to make money.<BR>- He will rarely ever update a spell.<BR>- He will never sell stuffs on the broker.<BR>- He will probably not spend too much time doing tradeskill because this is a lot of time wasted.<BR>- He will never be in a raid because he doesn't have the time for that."</P> <P> </P> <P>this is the most arrogant, crappy definition of a casual player i have ever seen.</P> <P> </P> <P>I AM a casual player.... I have 3 toons 11-31</P> <P>I have harvested 3 rares..... </P> <P>I have a 3 room house..... </P> <P>I won't care about buying a horse cause they are gimped... but I have made over 2 plat so far in sales (so i could have bought one)...... </P> <P>I have 10+ adept 3 spells between my toons ( and all others are ap 4 i made myself)..... </P> <P>I sell stuff on the broker all day while I am at work...... </P> <P>I am a 26 alchy, a 19 scholar and a 11 craftsman</P> <P> </P> <P>And you are a smacktard</P></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Good call but the kiddie who wrote that list wont get to read that till school is out. </DIV>

[Valhu]

<DIV>"Good call but the kiddie who wrote that list wont get to read that till school is out. "</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>:smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I did edit mine to add a couple other points and remove calling him a (person of low intelligence).. casue name calling is not really needed... sorry :smileysad:</DIV>

[Styl]

<DIV>We are not saying we deserve the best loot in the game just because we can kill lvl 54 group 4 mobs.   What we are saying is that we deserve loot worth the time and effort we put into killing him.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We are not saying the casual player doesn't deserve to be able to get this same loot.  What we are saying is that it should require you to put in as much effort and risk as we did.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And there is no reason sony can't put in a quest that takes the casual player weeks to finish so they have access to the same loot.  That would be fair in my opinion.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But right now, we can raid x mob and we get the same crap loot, that the casual player can get from dropping a regular group mob.  In no way is this fair to the hardcore gamer.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Of course we are gonna be upset when we the time and risk we invest, has the same reward as someone who got lucky and dropped a group mob with the same loot table.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We are killing lvl 54 ^^^ group 4 mobs, and getting wooden chests.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I seen a master chest drop off a regular nightblood group mob.....and had a pair of lvl 45+ monk handwraps in it with a proc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is something seriously wrong with this.</DIV>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stylin wrote:<BR> <DIV>*snipped*</DIV> <DIV>And there is no reason sony can't put in a quest that takes the casual player weeks to finish so they have access to the same loot.  That would be fair in my opinion.  </DIV> <DIV>*snipped*<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>translates to: "If yo have a live you should be at a disatvantage in-game"</P> <P>very nice point of view.....<BR></P>

[Melamp]

Here's a sample of the current loot situation for lvl 50'sThis is killing a grp^4 epic in Lavastorm<IMG SRC="http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/242/242146/folders/194472/1463780FistLoot.JPG">Here's a single grp mob drop...being worn by a lvl 43<IMG SRC="http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/242/242146/folders/194472/1463779agonyloot.JPG">Do you not see a problem?<p>Message Edited by Melampus on <span class=date_text>03-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:41 AM</span>

[Namil]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stylin wrote:<BR> <DIV>*snipped*</DIV> <DIV>And there is no reason sony can't put in a quest that takes the casual player weeks to finish so they have access to the same loot.  That would be fair in my opinion.  </DIV> <DIV>*snipped*<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>translates to: "If yo have a live you should be at a disatvantage in-game"</P> <P>very nice point of view.....<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>But you think it is fair that a person should get the PGT (or any good weapon or item) from killing one mob solo? That is the biggest crock I have ever heard. If you can not put in the time and effort then NO you should not be able to get the same things as the people that can! <BR>Having a life has nothing to do with this game! I have a great life full of driving my Daughter to activities and visiting family and so on, but I know I have to find the time to play in order to get or do the bigger things in the game. Nothing in life is just handed to you, you have to put in the time and effort to accomplish things. Just because this is a game does not mean that the same principles do not apply. If anything the game should  and does represent how much you can accomplish by putting forth some effort. If you choose not to participate wether by choice or by a busy life schedule that does not mean you should get things handed to you. </DIV> <DIV>Regardless, in time you will reach higher levels and with mentoring you will be able to group with anyone, by planning ahead you could do raids. You may out level the stuff you can get but you can get them.</DIV>

[Cast]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stylin wrote:<BR> <DIV>We are not saying we deserve the best loot in the game just because we can kill lvl 54 group 4 mobs.   What we are saying is that we deserve loot worth the time and effort we put into killing him.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We are not saying the casual player doesn't deserve to be able to get this same loot.  What we are saying is that it should require you to put in as much effort and risk as we did.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And there is no reason sony can't put in a quest that takes the casual player weeks to finish so they have access to the same loot.  That would be fair in my opinion.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But right now, we can raid x mob and we get the same crap loot, that the casual player can get from dropping a regular group mob.  In no way is this fair to the hardcore gamer.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Of course we are gonna be upset when we the time and risk we invest, has the same reward as someone who got lucky and dropped a group mob with the same loot table.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We are killing lvl 54 ^^^ group 4 mobs, and getting wooden chests.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I seen a master chest drop off a regular nightblood group mob.....and had a pair of lvl 45+ monk handwraps in it with a proc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is something seriously wrong with this.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Stylin you dont put any more effort or time into the game than anyone else. Difference is you have access to more higher level people who all power leveled their way up the same as you. Thats not an investment of time or anything else. You havent put in as much time playing as someone who played just as much as you but instead of 1 level 50 they have 2 or 3 mid level 30's. </P> <P>Your pompous to think you deserve better for killing 1 mob while people killing things at the same place that dont have access to the same groups as you deserve less. They arent going to hand you another evercamp no matter how much you try and twist words to your advantage.<BR></P>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Namilla wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>But you think it is fair that a person should get the PGT (or any good weapon or item) from killing one mob solo? That is the biggest crock I have ever heard. If you can not put in the time and effort then NO you should not be able to get the same things as the people that can! <BR>Having a life has nothing to do with this game! I have a great life full of driving my Daughter to activities and visiting family and so on, but I know I have to find the time to play in order to get or do the bigger things in the game. Nothing in life is just handed to you, you have to put in the time and effort to accomplish things. Just because this is a game does not mean that the same principles do not apply. If anything the game should  and does represent how much you can accomplish by putting forth some effort. If you choose not to participate wether by choice or by a busy life schedule that does not mean you should get things handed to you. </P> <P>Regardless, in time you will reach higher levels and with mentoring you will be able to group with anyone, by planning ahead you could do raids. You may out level the stuff you can get but you can get them.<BR> <HR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You and I are not the same breed.</P> <P>I DONT CARE about any weapon I can or cannot get. <BR>I DONT CARE if the mobs with the fat loot are to tough for a soloer<BR>I DONT CARE if the pristine crafted stuff is to expensive.<BR>I DONT CARE if I never will be able to afford a 40%speed  horse</P> <P>But the ONE thing I DO care is an [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]holes who wants to deny other able players of the appropriate lvl the good loot just because they MIGHT get it as a  pick-up group of casual players.</P> <P>The thought alone that freddie, jamal and lisa might pick a good day and a streak of luck to kill some mob that [Removed for Content] you and your uber-friends 3 times in a row AND get the drop you are still waiting for days now must make you really clench your teeth in rage :smileyvery-happy:</P>

[Melamp]

<blockquote><hr>Castor wrote:<BLOCKQUOTE>><P>Stylin you dont put any more effort or time into the game than anyone else. Difference is you have access to more higher level people who all power leveled their way up the same as you. Thats not an investment of time or anything else. You havent put in as much time playing as someone who played just as much as you but instead of 1 level 50 they have 2 or 3 mid level 30's. </P><P>Your pompous to think you deserve better for killing 1 mob while people killing things at the same place that dont have access to the same groups as you deserve less. They arent going to hand you another evercamp no matter how much you try and twist words to your advantage.</P><hr></blockquote>Castor's Play time on main char = 27 Days, 6 Hours, 25 MinutesStylin's Play time on main Char = 45 Days, 18 Hours, 48 MinutesAnd having a low 20's and lvl 11 doesn't make up for that amount of difference.He's obviously put more time in...and beyond that...why include alts in your argument...Hey I've harvest for 30 days on my lvl 5 toon, so that mean my lvl 20 should get lvl 50 loot because all together i've put in alot of time into this game...matter of fact since i think I should be given great loot please just give it to my lvl 5 instead of my lvl 20 because he'll look cooler.Isn't this part of you're guild's motto? "future for the guild is to have epic guild raids"let them know that you don't believe good loot should be from these mobs<p>Message Edited by Melampus on <span class=date_text>03-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:19 AM</span>

[BWShellShocked]

<DIV>The bottom line here is that nearly everyone is right, but also wrong at the same time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Power gamers are correct (I'm assuming, not yet at the end game level, but have no reason to disbelieve).  High end content should be added, and it will be.</DIV> <DIV>Casual gamers are correct, they far outnumber the power gamers, and SOE has its hands full just fixing bugs, tweaking classes, etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The "Adventure Pack" is very obviously geared towards those that raced to the end.   It would make no sense otherwise, for SOE to release a mini-expansion this soon after release.  This tells me that they expected the power players to get to the end quickly, and the AP was already in the works for that reason.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>99% of the power gamers came from EQL.  They know the history, and I must say, I am suprised that they got to the end and are shocked by the results.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm kind of a strange hybrid type of player.  I'm a power gamer in that I play 4+ hrs nightly, every night, during the week, and weekends quite often put in 12-18 hrs each day (Fri/Sat/Sun).  BUT, I'm only lvl 25 warden, lvl 44 provisioner.  I have one alt that I made just for "standby purposes".  He's lvl 9 adv, lvl 9 artisan.  I don't play him, just made him to save time later, for when I do want to play him.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Basically, I'm taking my sweet time, so that I don't outlevel the new stuff they add for the lower levels, and so that I can experience the game completely. Do basically all the quests, craft everything I can craft, and so on.  I grind out grey food/drink for my guildmates, just as often as I grind out food/drink that gives me xp.  I do guild writs to level us up, and no, I'm not "ecstatically excited" about the game, but I see its potential, and am, at this point in time at least, content to wait and see what comes over the horizon as the game is developed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I played EQL for years, almost from the beginning, and knew what to expect from EQ2.  I wasn't expecting to be able to rush to the end game and be happy when I got there.  Sorry, made that mistake on EQL, and spent many boring months waiting for the Devs, and other players to catch up to me.  Nope, wasn't about to make that mistake again, I learned my lesson the first go around.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I knew it would take them a while to get the kinks worked out, and bug smashing, economy balancing, class tweaking, skill adjustments, blah, blah, blah, all take a long time to accomplish, and SHOULD take a higher priority than the end game.  That's just the facts.  Casual players have always outnumbered hard core types, and SOE needs to cater to the largest chunk of the pie, else they'll have no cash to do any of the above.  That's fact.  I do agree that the uber gear should be basically raid only, but that does need to be balanced for the casual player too.  Uber for raid level stuff is completely different, than uber for casual, small group and solo encounters.  You don't need 10,000HP, and 3000 attack, when you are solo'ing and mini-grouping "normally".  SOE will define those things, more clearly as they have time.  Content will be added, gear introduced, drops adjusted, etc.  Patience is key.  No one is going to be satisfied or happy now, because it is still being born, we have yet to see the end game because it hasn't been written yet.  The game isn't done, heck, its barely even started.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But again, as I said, both player types are 100% correct.  Unfortunately, the power gamers that rushed to the end, will now need to learn patience or perhaps return to EQL and buy the OoW and DoN expansions.  I do feel sorry for them, for the most part, because I remember my disappointment all those years ago, on EQ1.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What am I doing besides playing it slow and easy?  Well, my EQ1 account is still active for just this very reason.  If I get to the end, and find myself bored, I can still go back to EQL for new content.  When the servers go down for extended periods of time, as has happened twice now, I can still get my EverCrack fix, and visit my old friends that still remain on EQL.  Yes, the population is quite low nowadays, BUT as server merges continue, population continues to increase.  And, EQL is still fun for me, with all the new content that has been, and continues to be added.  Plus, each time I go back, I feel like a lvl 70 ebay'd newb.  It takes me a solid couple of hours just to relearn the gui, remember that I'm a beastlord and can summon a pet, fighting style, and so on.  I'm actually amazed at how quick I can forget that stuff.. I played EQL for years, and have only played EQ2 for 4 months.  OoW is awesome, and I've only scratched the surface on that.  Pre-ordered it, played it for two months, and that's all the time I had, because EQ2 came out, and I started that, on Nov 8th.  Now there's DoN out, and I haven't even seen that content yet.  OoW blew my socks off, and so I have no doubt DoN is just as graphically pleasing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dunno, just a suggestion, but you might want to give that approach a try.  The All Access pricing makes it feasible/affordable, as its not that much more per month to have EQL access along with EQ2.  Worth a shot, I'd say.  Better than playing nothing <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Namil]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Namilla wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>But you think it is fair that a person should get the PGT (or any good weapon or item) from killing one mob solo? That is the biggest crock I have ever heard. If you can not put in the time and effort then NO you should not be able to get the same things as the people that can! <BR>Having a life has nothing to do with this game! I have a great life full of driving my Daughter to activities and visiting family and so on, but I know I have to find the time to play in order to get or do the bigger things in the game. Nothing in life is just handed to you, you have to put in the time and effort to accomplish things. Just because this is a game does not mean that the same principles do not apply. If anything the game should  and does represent how much you can accomplish by putting forth some effort. If you choose not to participate wether by choice or by a busy life schedule that does not mean you should get things handed to you. </P> <P>Regardless, in time you will reach higher levels and with mentoring you will be able to group with anyone, by planning ahead you could do raids. You may out level the stuff you can get but you can get them.<BR> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You and I are not the same breed.</P> <P>I DONT CARE about any weapon I can or cannot get. <BR>I DONT CARE if the mobs with the fat loot are to tough for a soloer<BR>I DONT CARE if the pristine crafted stuff is to expensive.<BR>I DONT CARE if I never will be able to afford a 40%speed  horse</P> <P>But the ONE thing I DO care is an [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]holes who wants to deny other able players of the appropriate lvl the good loot just because they MIGHT get it as a  pick-up group of casual players.</P> <P>The thought alone that freddie, jamal and lisa might pick a good day and a streak of luck to kill some mob that [Removed for Content] you and your uber-friends 3 times in a row AND get the drop you are still waiting for days now must make you really clench your teeth in rage :smileyvery-happy:</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I dont care if you get the loot by killing the SAME mob that drops it. But to insinuate that you should be able to solo a mob that will normally take a group or multiple groups to kill is ludicris. Easier Single person or 3 person mobs should never have the same loot as mobs of the same level that require x2,x3 or x4 groups. If they did then everyone would just kill them and never try to achive anything that takes some thought or patience to do. If you put in the time or you get a pickup group or pickup raid to kill the same mob the heck yeah you deserve the loot. If not then it is your choice!</P> <P>I dont expect you to agree with me but please keep your insults and assumption of who I am or how I play to yourself. These forums are to discuss things in an adult manner not to slander one another because you dont agree!<BR></P>

[yes4]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Valhuru wrote:<BR> <DIV>"Good call but the kiddie who wrote that list wont get to read that till school is out. "</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>:smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I did edit mine to add a couple other points and remove calling him a (person of low intelligence).. casue name calling is not really needed... sorry :smileysad:</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> How old are you to call someone like that? Sir, you were arrogant.<p>Message Edited by yes4me on <span class=date_text>03-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:43 PM</span>

[Melamp]

honestly..if you read the forumseveryone that describes themselves are a mature adult...with 3+ years of UBER GUILD eq1 experience

[Akacia]

<DIV>I personally have been level 50 since end of December early January timeframe and did not rush tog et there at all. I don't particularly have a problem witht he end game content but yes I do agree the loot is unbalanced for sure.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Harvesting is a joke now which at one time was something decent you could put time into it and be rewarded generously with at least being able to sell T5 harvests for more then 1copper up to 1silver now for the most part since the serious hit on the tradeskills. So at least at the time it was worthwhile harvesting regulars for that rare. Now why would you ever want to harvest for a rare when you can just go into the Obelisk and farm the named in there non stop and get rares galore off the named all over the place!?!? Big screw up here I think as far as nerfing goes, the entire reason for harvesting both in tradeskill department and rares are easier got off green mobs to a level 50 now in one of the buggiest zones in the game the obelisk.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is decent loot in Solusek and the instanced zones there but another thing I find a problem is the rediculous amounts of things you have to do for say Efreeti boots heritage quest or even the Tranix Crown. The freeti boots and Crown are just WAY too much garbage for a reward that is specific to only one class - heritage quests like boots and a crown desperately need to be changed to class specific rewards - if you want a high end player to go through all the work to finish these make it worthwhile - 60 gold at a vendor simply isn't worth the trouble, status points or not as far as I am concerned the status points as far as spending them is completely worthless in this game - give us something really useful to use them on higher level guild or not the stuff just isn't worth burning those points on, I almost have 900K points and nt a single thing I care about getting with them. Needs to be more thought put into what the city merchants are handing out, not everyone wants to give hundreds of thousands of points and 50 plat for a rug or spirit horse to move around EQ with and really there isn't a whole lot of anything else that is worthy to put points towards.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I love doing the heritage quests for prestige items andfor the titles, almost nearing 20 finished quests now in that area I enjoyed a lot of them for the most part but I feel they got worse as the new ones came into play, higher level heritage quests seemed to get tedious and a lot more to do and a lot more trying to get rare spawns - AKA keep you doing something since you higher level and then the rewards come out and they are pretty lame but the boots for a caster class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyhow some work needs to be done but I guess be thankful that at least they are working on the game and not sitting on their butts like WoW devs are.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[stoutbrewdrink]

<DIV>Guys you might as well leave this thread and let it die. To many [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] people "flaming" the high end concept.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just want to say thespar... na nevermind not worth saying, waste of time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>look, you will all be here soon enough,and we are saying its crap at this lvl of play. So basically you are going to end up here at one point in time. Also we dont want this to happen in future expansions where high end stuff is a joke.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>sure say we all powerlvled to 50.... just because i play 10+ hours a day (yes i am a crackhead) doesnt mean i powergamed, it means i play a hell of alot more than you and used my time not to [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] around sittin in Qharbor watching the cats chase the mice.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but again lemme restate THIS THREAD IS WORTHLESS to many ppl out here to flame this thread instead of taking it seriously.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> <P></P> <P>Namilla wrote:</P> <P> If you put in the time or you get a pickup group or pickup raid to kill the same mob the heck yeah you deserve the loot. If not then it is your choice!</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Thats all I wanted to hear.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You may take the effort now to find a quote where I said I wanted the same loot as a soloer that raid groups get.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I say is that people who demand loot that is <EM>impossible to get for casual players (</EM>so they can feel *special* probably)<EM> a</EM>re greedy )(/&%$§"!s</DIV><p>Message Edited by Tradeskill_Addict on <span class=date_text>03-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:03 PM</span>

[Melamp]

<blockquote><hr>Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<DIV>Thats all I wanted to hear.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>You may take the effort now to find a quote where I said I wanted the same loot as a soloer that raid groups get.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>What I say is that people who demand loot that is <EM>impossible to get for casual players (</EM>so they can feel *special* probably)<EM> a</EM>re greedy )(/&%$§"!s</DIV></blockquote>So in 3-5 months when the now "casual players" have all reach lvl 50the same lvl as the now "power gamers"why would that loot be "impossible" to get?

[Thesp]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Namilla wrote:<BR><BR> <P>I dont care if you get the loot by killing the SAME mob that drops it. But to insinuate that you should be able to solo a mob that will normally take a group or multiple groups to kill is ludicris. Easier Single person or 3 person mobs should never have the same loot as mobs of the same level that require x2,x3 or x4 groups. If they did then everyone would just kill them and never try to achive anything that takes some thought or patience to do. If you put in the time or you get a pickup group or pickup raid to kill the same mob the heck yeah you deserve the loot. If not then it is your choice!<BR> <HR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Your assume that because a mob can be killed by 6 people that it must always be easier than killing a mob that needs 24, I don't believe that is true, heres why.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With locked encounters it ensures that you can not bring more than the given encounter was designed for. That means that you can make an encounter to challenge a group of 6 with exactly the same amount of challenge as the encounter designed for 24 people (or 12 or 1<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Think about it in a <EM>difficulty per player </EM>ratio. Hypothetically, if you were able to quantitize difficulty in numerical values and then divide by the number of people used to win the encounter, you would get a ratio that is independent of the raid/group/solo terms that we like to assign to various encounters. I assert that it is entirely possible to design encounters for all 3 of those classifications that have similar difficulty per player ratios, so why shouldn't they be awarded equally? Based on numerous comments by people on this thread (and I could spend hours cut/pasting all of them but I won't) its seems apparent to me that they have the notion that raids should always yield superior loot than group or solo encounters irregardless of a difficulty per player ratio like I describe. (you could also describe it as a difficulty per resource or challenge per resource ratio)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That is where I call BS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok, so the next argument "well if you can solo it or single group it, then it renders raid mobs useless as there is no point to killing them as opposed to getting just a group and going after single group named." That statement is simply not true for 3 reasons:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Sometimes raid mobs are just more fun when you have more of your friends along with you, so you'll still take them down because it provides content for more people than just one group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. Guilds often want to do something as a guild rather than just as a group, raids provide that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3. Locked encounters ensure that content is not simply overpowered with more people. eqlive did not have this, thus the only recourse was to make mobs exceedingly harder, requiring more people.</DIV>

[Thesp]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Melampus wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tradeskill_Addict wrote: <DIV>Thats all I wanted to hear.</DIV> <DIV>You may take the effort now to find a quote where I said I wanted the same loot as a soloer that raid groups get.</DIV> <DIV>What I say is that people who demand loot that is <EM>impossible to get for casual players (</EM>so they can feel *special* probably)<EM> a</EM>re greedy )(/&%$§"!s</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR><BR>So in 3-5 months when the now "casual players" have all reach lvl 50<BR>the same lvl as the now "power gamers"<BR><BR>why would that loot be "impossible" to get?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Because not everyone chooses to spend their time raiding. Some people just dont like it or the enjoy the smaller, more intimate experiences much more.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Perhaps they choose to remain in the guild that they leveled up in rather than making max level and then jumping to a full-time raid guild.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Perhaps their guild is small such that they are incapable of fielding 24 person raids, but they can put together single groups.</FONT></DIV>

[Melamp]

again, a post with no meritLet's say for example that we rated encounters based on the difficultyso a lvl 50 grp mob has a rating of 7/10 for it's difficulty lvl.then an epic grpx4 mob has a rating of 6/10 for it's difficulty lvl?so the grpx1 get better loot?what about all the new solo content.what if one of those lvl 50 solo mobs has a difficulty rating of 8/10 should it now drop better loot than and epic or single grp mob?what if the person soloing it is a class that doesn't solo well.. and that makes that encouter become a 9/10 difficulty rating for that individual player/class...should now that loot be grand?

[aeio]

<blockquote><hr>Melampus wrote:Here's a sample of the current loot situation for lvl 50'sThis is killing a grp^4 epic in LavastormHere's a single grp mob drop...being worn by a lvl 43Do you not see a problem?<p>Message Edited by Melampus on <span class=date_text>03-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:41 AM</span><hr></blockquote>I don't see a problem with that. Document the loot from each 1000 times, and we might have something to discuss. Raid loot should be as good as group mob loot. But I still think you are under the impression that all of the best loot should come from raid mobs. Many people don't agree with you.

[aeio]

"[Removed for Content], it's not wanting to be catered to..it is wanted to be rewarded for time/work invested."If I play 100 hours killing single group mobs, I should have access to the same rewards as you playing and raiding uber mobs for 100 hours. The time invested is exactly the same. Somehow I don't think you will agree with me. Although with a closed encounter system there is nothing inately more challenging about 2 groups, 3groups or 4 groups taking on 2,3,4 group mob encounters, than there is a single group taking on a single difficult encounter. So the risk and effort is the same.

[Tradeskill_Addict]

:smileywink:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Melampus wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <FONT color=#00cc00>Tradeskill_Addict wrote:</FONT> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc00>Thats all I wanted to hear.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc00></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc00>You may take the effort now to find a quote where I said I wanted the same loot as a soloer that raid groups get.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc00></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc00>What I say is that people who demand loot that is <EM>impossible to get for casual players (</EM>so they can feel *special* probably)<EM> a</EM>re greedy )(/&%$§"!s</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR><BR>So in 3-5 months when the now "casual players" have all reach lvl 50<BR>the same lvl as the now "power gamers"<BR><BR>why would that loot be "impossible" to get?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <P><FONT color=#00cc00 size=3>It would not be.......but it *should* according to some other players: </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>Zerofault wrote:<BR></FONT><FONT size=2>There needs to be a distinction between casual and hardcore gamers.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>Zerofault wrote:<BR></FONT><FONT size=2>we want raid loot to be Easily distinguishable from the avg players loot.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>Stylin wrote:<BR></FONT><FONT size=2>And there is no reason sony can't put in a quest that takes the casual player weeks to finish so they have access to the same loot. That would be fair in my opinion. </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>Namilla wrote:<BR></FONT><FONT size=2>If you can not put in the time and effort then NO you should not be able to get the same things as the people that can! </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc00 size=2>and i didnt like that attitude either:</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>yes4me wrote:<BR></FONT><FONT size=2>I defined a casual player as someone who just plays the game for 1-2 hour MAX and leave. EQ2 is not really for the casual players. A casual player will miss a lot of content:<BR></FONT><FONT size=2>- He will not harvest for hours to get a rare item.<BR></FONT><FONT size=2>- He will never see what an expensive house look like.<BR></FONT><FONT size=2>- He will never buy a horse because he doesn't play enough to make money.<BR></FONT><FONT size=2>- He will rarely ever update a spell.<BR></FONT><FONT size=2>- He will never sell stuffs on the broker.<BR></FONT><FONT size=2>- He will probably not spend too much time doing tradeskill because this is a lot of time wasted.<BR></FONT><FONT size=2>- He will never be in a raid because he doesn't have the time for that.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------</FONT></P></DIV> <P><FONT color=#00cc00>I know its a waste of time but everytime a *hardcoregamer* stands up and demands that the casual gamers should have a hard time achieving anything he does I will reply to that.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc00>In case someone missed the point - beeing a casual gamer doesn't mean we wouldn't  LIKE to play for 8 hours a day - we just CANNOT. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc00>And for not being ABLE to play as much  as others - WHICH IS A DISADVANTAGE ALLREADY - there are wisecracks out there calling us *average* and want to add MORE DISATVANTAGES for casual gamers? </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc00>Don't you think this COULD make someone angry?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc00>Enough of that......while I posted my toon made enough silver in vendor mode to buy some stuff - have a nice evening playing everyone!:smileyhappy:</FONT></P>

[Melamp]

<blockquote><hr>aeiouy wrote:"[Removed for Content], it's not wanting to be catered to..it is wanted to be rewarded for time/work invested."If I play 100 hours killing single group mobs, I should have access to the same rewards as you playing and raiding uber mobs for 100 hours. The time invested is exactly the same. Somehow I don't think you will agree with me. Although with a closed encounter system there is nothing inately more challenging about 2 groups, 3groups or 4 groups taking on 2,3,4 group mob encounters, than there is a single group taking on a single difficult encounter. So the risk and effort is the same.<hr></blockquote>Ok here's somethingyou're a tank...you have 8000 hp, you spend 20 mins on 7 encounters killing mobs that hit you for 300 a pophere's another tank he has 8000 hp, he spends 20 mins on 1 encounter killing an epic mob that hits for 3000 a popso yay, time is the same...but the difficulty goes WAY up.btw...where do you fight those single grp mobs? oh, right there at zone in...how nice..try having to go through all those mobs and fight something that is way the hell away from the zone in.matter of fact i'll tell you this much..I have done more single grp mobs that you're probably do in the next 3 months..and never once did I expect any of them do drop something as good as what I expect just 1 epic mob to drop...why is that? because i'm realistic..not a "I don't like playing for more than 20 mins but I expect to have everything I want in those 20 mins given to me"I like to work for things I get....this is a game..but like every thing else in life you should get out of it what you put in...fun/loot/memories.Do you expect a promotion if you're a casual worker?Do you expect you kids to be raised right if you're never around?DO you expect not to have to change oil in your car because you drive it casually?In sports did you expect a championship when you were lolleygaging out in right field?When you decided not to go to school because that took 8 hours out of your day did you think you should be given A's?not putting you down, I just want to know what kind of person you are

[Styl]

<DIV>[Removed for Content], we are sooo on the same page bro.  We were writing the same thing at the same time...but you beat me to the submit button:smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So just because you have other things goin on, and cannont play as much as someone else, you feel that its SOE's job to make sure you get the same stuff they do?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That is total CRAP.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you don't want to commit full time to a game, then thats fine.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But you CANNOT expect to have the same rewards as someone who can.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thats like paying someone a 500.00 for working a 40 hour week.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then joe blow complains that he worked 10 hours this weeks, and he want's 500.00 also.  Its total crap.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you cannot commit, or don't want to play that much, then thats your problem, why should the rest of the player base suffer because of you?</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Stylin on <SPAN class=date_text>03-11-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:07 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Stylin on <span class=date_text>03-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:57 PM</span>

[Thesp]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stylin wrote:<BR> <DIV>[Removed for Content], we are sooo on the same page bro.  We were writing the same thing at the same time...but you beat me to the submit button:smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So just because you have other things goin on, and cannont play as much as someone else, you feel that its SOE's job to make sure you get the same stuff they do?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That is total CRAP.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you don't want to commit full time to a game, then thats fine.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But you CANNOT expect to have the same rewards as someone who can.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thats like paying someone a 500.00 for working a 40 hour week.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then joe blow complains that he worked 10 hours this weeks, and he want's 500.00 also.  Its total crap.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you cannon commit, or don't want to play that much, then thats your problem, why should the rest of the player base suffer because of you?<BR></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Thats not whats being said so pull your head out of your [Removed for Content] and turn on the green pile pile of goo located between your ears for the first time in your life. This is not a casual vs hardcore arguement so whoever started that is wrong. This is about how people choose to spend the time that they have. Some will spend it raiding, some will spend it in groups or soloing, it doesn't matter if you have 60 hrs/wk to play or 10, you will still choose to do what you want to do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The point here is that people think that raid mobs should drop vastly better items just because of the simple fact that they are done with a raid. Raiding doesn't inherently take up any more time than does a single group, a single group can play for just as long as your raid does so why shouldn't they get the same quality of rewards for the same time put in?</DIV>

[Cast]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Melampus wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Castor wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>> <P>Stylin you dont put any more effort or time into the game than anyone else. Difference is you have access to more higher level people who all power leveled their way up the same as you. Thats not an investment of time or anything else. You havent put in as much time playing as someone who played just as much as you but instead of 1 level 50 they have 2 or 3 mid level 30's. </P> <P>Your pompous to think you deserve better for killing 1 mob while people killing things at the same place that dont have access to the same groups as you deserve less. They arent going to hand you another evercamp no matter how much you try and twist words to your advantage.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>Castor's Play time on main char = 27 Days, 6 Hours, 25 Minutes<BR>Stylin's Play time on main Char = 45 Days, 18 Hours, 48 Minutes<BR><BR>And having a low 20's and lvl 11 doesn't make up for that amount of difference.<BR>He's obviously put more time in...and beyond that...why include alts in your argument...Hey I've harvest for 30 days on my lvl 5 toon, so that mean my lvl 20 should get lvl 50 loot because all together i've put in alot of time into this game...matter of fact since i think I should be given great loot please just give it to my lvl 5 instead of my lvl 20 because he'll look cooler.<BR><BR>Isn't this part of you're guild's motto?<BR>"future for the guild is to have epic guild raids"<BR><BR>let them know that you don't believe good loot should be from these mobs <P>Message Edited by Melampus on <SPAN class=date_text>03-11-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:19 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>ROFL now go find my other account. What my guilds motto is doesnt mean I have to believe it, work for it or back it. </P> <P> </P> <P>You kid types wont be happy till its you and the botters owning, or rather pwning in your own words, everything worth to kill. </P> <P> </P> <P>People here made enough valid posts to bury you people. If a small guild or group that doesnt have the time or resources to raid then you shouldnt be able to say the top end gear or loot should only be for you. You want to raid and not just group then thats your call but it doesnt give you any kind of inherent right to everything your way. <BR></P> </BLOCKQUOTE>

[Eal]

<DIV>   I knew this was going to be an issue when I was leveling so quickly. There was more incentive to leveling faster to me than playing the content at that level.  This is my fault of course, but some of the blame goes into game balance which I think Sony is having a hard time managing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>    I understand this is hindsight, but the levels shouldn't be the main focus of any game. You should be engrossed in the content. Levels should only be an indicator of how much time you chose to invest not the quality of your character. Since leveling was the easiest way to gain reward, most people only care about what level you are, then come class then comes gear. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>   To me, Levels should be very low on the priority list and Content should be the highest and gear should be high also. This is partly why people are complaining now because they are stuck at level 50 with not much to do, like myself. If levels were exponential, meaning it took you twice as long to attain a level than the one before. People wouldn't have been so worried about leveling. They could have spent a lot more time playing the game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>   I only say this because it will be an issue again when people go from level 50 to 65 in one month and we are right back where we started at again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Zerofault]

<DIV>I've come to the realization that we are arguing with a bunch of 14 yr old wannabes.  The ones arguing for easy loot, the ones arguing for raid loot from regular/one group named mobs...  These are teh same people that would buy plat from yantis.. these are the same people that NEVER EVER played high end eq1.  They have no concept of what it is to WORK towards a goal and succeeding at it...  They are the people that want everything handed to them with little effort but great reward.. this is a fantasy game, so I guess that makes sense, cause thats not how the world works, and neither will the game once its fixed, which i'm betting the next expansion will be catering to the more high end/ high lvl crowd...  this is my last post about this, cause to be honest, its a waste of time to argue with ignorance and immaturity.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lodoz</DIV>

[Cast]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zerofault wrote:<BR> <DIV>I've come to the realization that we are arguing with a bunch of 14 yr old wannabes.  The ones arguing for easy loot, the ones arguing for raid loot from regular/one group named mobs...  These are teh same people that would buy plat from yantis.. these are the same people that NEVER EVER played high end eq1.  They have no concept of what it is to WORK towards a goal and succeeding at it...  They are the people that want everything handed to them with little effort but great reward.. this is a fantasy game, so I guess that makes sense, cause thats not how the world works, and neither will the game once its fixed, which i'm betting the next expansion will be catering to the more high end/ high lvl crowd...  this is my last post about this, cause to be honest, its a waste of time to argue with ignorance and immaturity.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lodoz</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>ROFL and the 14 year old uber elite speaks once more. Please go and play a game that "caters" to your royal highness. </DIV>

[Melamp]

If a lvl 20 posted that there should be more gear available at lvl 20 there would be very few high lvl players disagree or even comment on that thread.But if a lvl 50 posts there should be more gear for lvl 50's then you see the lowbies coming outta the woodwork trying to [Removed for Content] them

[Thesp]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Melampus wrote:<BR>If a lvl 20 posted that there should be more gear available at lvl 20 there would be very few high lvl players disagree or even comment on that thread.<BR>But if a lvl 50 posts there should be more gear for lvl 50's then you see the lowbies coming outta the woodwork trying to [Removed for Content] them<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> The OP didn't say he wanted more gear, he said that the gear that was there was not up to his standards of 7331ness. The quantity of the gear is not the issue, at least not according to the OP, he seems to think that raid loot should be infinitely more superior than all the other gear available at lvl 50.

[Melamp]

<blockquote><hr>Thespar wrote:<blockquote><hr>Melampus wrote:If a lvl 20 posted that there should be more gear available at lvl 20 there would be very few high lvl players disagree or even comment on that thread.But if a lvl 50 posts there should be more gear for lvl 50's then you see the lowbies coming outta the woodwork trying to [Removed for Content] them<hr></blockquote><div></div>The OP didn't say he wanted more gear, he said that the gear that was there was not up to his standards of 7331ness. The quantity of the gear is not the issue, at least not according to the OP, he seems to think that raid loot should be infinitely more superior than all the other gear available at lvl 50.<hr></blockquote>well, same goes either way quanity/qualitybut yeah...Loot quality should besolo then grp then grpX2 then grpX3 then grpx4otherwise...go play diablo

[Thesp]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Melampus wrote:<BR><BR>but yeah...Loot quality should be<BR><BR>solo then grp then grpX2 then grpX3 then grpx4<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>On what basis do you make this assumption?</DIV>

[Styl]

<DIV>Whats the point of more gear when its total crap gear.  I would rather 50+ group 4 mobs drop one piece of quality gear, then the 5 drops of crap gear that they have been.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>IF YOU EVER get the chance at a go at drath you will understand what i'm talking about. ( BTW this is the hardest mob in game, it took about a month long quest to even get to him, and we killed him twice and he dropped a WOOD chest both times )</DIV> <DIV> Now remember back when I said I saw a MASTER chest drop off a regular nightblood group mob in RV.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Take a look at FoH guild forums.  (they were the elite of EQL, BTW Drath dropped a WOOD chest for them also)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They said they would rather evac off the island without looting the chest that dropped,  then go home with that crap.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And its not just them, its every guild that is at that point, ours included.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe if you got there you would understand.  Right now, you probably think a faysteel sai is uber loot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Join us in the high content, then maybe i'll will respect your opinions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=5>ONCE AGAIN, NO MATTER HOW LONG IT TAKES YOU TO GET TO LEVEL 50, THE LOOT SHOULD BE THERE WHEN YOU DO!</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=5></FONT></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=5></FONT></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=5>RISK = REWARD</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=5></FONT></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=5></FONT></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=5></FONT></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=5>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text>BTW this is for </SPAN> <P><STRONG><SPAN class=time_text>Thespar</SPAN> </STRONG> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN><STRONG></STRONG> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Who told me to pull my head out my [Removed for Content], cause Raid mobs don't take any longer the group mobs to kill.</SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>I have never seen any group mob take 24 players and 2 hours to kill.</SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>MAYBE if you were at the high end game, and fought DRATH, then maybe you would know what your talking about.</SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Cause the 1st time we fought him, it took 24 people and 2 hours to kill</SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>And guess what, he dropped a WOOD chest.</SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Name ONE group mob that requires 2 hours to kill.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Stylin on <span class=date_text>03-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:04 PM</span>

[Thesp]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stylin wrote: <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Join us in the high content, then maybe i'll will respect your opinions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Pull your head out of your [Removed for Content] and stop thinking like a selfish, uber-guild powergamer and maybe I'll respect your opinion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh, and [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] cares what FoH thinks? They don't mandate what goes on in EQ2 and hopefully SOE won't cave in to the uber guilds like they did in eqdead.</DIV>

[Styl]

<DIV>So you had nothing to back up your idea that group mobs take as long as raid mobs?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Couldn't name one mob, so you once again start throwing out flames on people.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Back up your opinions, then I will listen to them.</DIV>

[aeio]

<blockquote><hr>Melampus wrote:<blockquote><hr>aeiouy wrote:"[Removed for Content], it's not wanting to be catered to..it is wanted to be rewarded for time/work invested."If I play 100 hours killing single group mobs, I should have access to the same rewards as you playing and raiding uber mobs for 100 hours. The time invested is exactly the same. Somehow I don't think you will agree with me. Although with a closed encounter system there is nothing inately more challenging about 2 groups, 3groups or 4 groups taking on 2,3,4 group mob encounters, than there is a single group taking on a single difficult encounter. So the risk and effort is the same.<hr></blockquote>Ok here's somethingyou're a tank...you have 8000 hp, you spend 20 mins on 7 encounters killing mobs that hit you for 300 a pophere's another tank he has 8000 hp, he spends 20 mins on 1 encounter killing an epic mob that hits for 3000 a popso yay, time is the same...but the difficulty goes WAY up.btw...where do you fight those single grp mobs? oh, right there at zone in...how nice..try having to go through all those mobs and fight something that is way the hell away from the zone in.matter of fact i'll tell you this much..I have done more single grp mobs that you're probably do in the next 3 months..and never once did I expect any of them do drop something as good as what I expect just 1 epic mob to drop...why is that? because i'm realistic..not a "I don't like playing for more than 20 mins but I expect to have everything I want in those 20 mins given to me"I like to work for things I get....this is a game..but like every thing else in life you should get out of it what you put in...fun/loot/memories.Do you expect a promotion if you're a casual worker?Do you expect you kids to be raised right if you're never around?DO you expect not to have to change oil in your car because you drive it casually?In sports did you expect a championship when you were lolleygaging out in right field?When you decided not to go to school because that took 8 hours out of your day did you think you should be given A's?not putting you down, I just want to know what kind of person you are<hr></blockquote>Get this through your head, this is NOT EQ1. Encounters are locked in this game. They are designed to be balanced and challenging for the appropriate group. In your example above, you also have 23 other people helping you while the group player has 5. There is NOTHING inherently more difficult about raid encounters, especially not given the system in EQ2.Sorry, but you DO NOT deserve greater rewards.

[aeio]

<blockquote><hr>Zerofault wrote:<DIV>I've come to the realization that we are arguing with a bunch of 14 yr old wannabes. The ones arguing for easy loot, the ones arguing for raid loot from regular/one group named mobs... These are teh same people that would buy plat from yantis.. these are the same people that NEVER EVER played high end eq1. They have no concept of what it is to WORK towards a goal and succeeding at it... They are the people that want everything handed to them with little effort but great reward.. this is a fantasy game, so I guess that makes sense, cause thats not how the world works, and neither will the game once its fixed, which i'm betting the next expansion will be catering to the more high end/ high lvl crowd... this is my last post about this, cause to be honest, its a waste of time to argue with ignorance and immaturity.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Lodoz</DIV><hr></blockquote>Actually, if we had a means of determining the average age of the two sides to this issue, I think you would be 100% wrong.

[Melamp]

<blockquote><hr>aeiouy wrote:br>Get this through your head, this is NOT EQ1. Encounters are locked in this game. They are designed to be balanced and challenging for the appropriate group. In your example above, you also have 23 other people helping you while the group player has 5. There is NOTHING inherently more difficult about raid encounters, especially not given the system in EQ2.Sorry, but you DO NOT deserve greater rewards.<hr></blockquote>You've never been on an epic encounter have you? have you ever even been part of a two grp raid?For everyone that thinks that Grp^4 mobs are just regular mobs and just as ez because 24 ppl kill them as oppose to 6 you're dead wrong.the example I gave was to show that you xping have the same amount of HP as the tank on a raid..yet you don't even have an idea of how hard these mobs hit do you?It's absolutely mind blowing how someone that has never done something tries to give an opinion.

[Valhu]

<DIV>" <DIV>So just because you have other things goin on, and cannont play as much as someone else, you feel that its SOE's job to make sure you get the same stuff they do?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That is total CRAP.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you don't want to commit full time to a game, then thats fine.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But you CANNOT expect to have the same rewards as someone who can.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thats like paying someone a 500.00 for working a 40 hour week.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then joe blow complains that he worked 10 hours this weeks, and he want's 500.00 also.  Its total crap.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you cannot commit, or don't want to play that much, then thats your problem, why should the rest of the player base suffer because of you?"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry but that is a flawed ananolgy... just cause you slap some crap together that is similar does not mean that it backs up your point.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To be more correct... It is not a job but something that we both pay for... a SERVICE... so compare it to the gym.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We both pay x$ a month for the gym.... you go 3 hours a day and I go for 1.  Now... you are obviously going to get faster results.  But... you feel that you should get access to "special equipment" that should only be useable by people that come to the gym as much as you....</DIV></DIV>

[Valhu]

<DIV>Zerofault... you are the 14 year old LOL</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"I've come to the realization that we are arguing with a bunch of 14 yr old wannabes.  The ones arguing for easy loot, the ones arguing for raid loot from regular/one group named mobs...  These are <FONT color=#ffff00>teh</FONT> same people that would buy plat from yantis.. these are the same people that NEVER EVER played high end eq1.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#006600>Well, before i quit about the time planes of power came out... i had been playing since pre-kunark.... you do the math... if you can..... </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They have no concept of what it is to WORK towards a goal and succeeding at it...  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#006600>Lets see... I have a BS in Electrical Engineering... but that was not work or a goal I had to succeed at.  I guess I should just throw away this diploma marked Magna [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] Laude..... you twit</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They are the people that want everything handed to them with little effort but great reward.. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#006600>And you know this how?</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>this is a fantasy game, so I guess that makes sense, cause thats not how the world works, </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#006600>You seen to have no idea of how the world works from what you say.... you make broad assumptions with no evidence at all.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and neither will the game once its fixed, which i'm betting the next expansion will be catering to the more high end/ high lvl crowd... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#006600>Which is what we have been saying all along.... </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> this is my last post about this, cause to be honest, its a waste of time to argue with ignorance and immaturity.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lodoz"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You have very little clue on how things work.... when you make assume, it makes an a s s of u & ..... wait, just you.  Everytime you post it is to view casual gamers in some derogitory way.... your not better than anyone</DIV>

[Valhu]

<DIV>OH .. and for the record, as a casual gamer that posts on this thread....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am NOT saying that raid loot should be obtainable by solo people... or equal to regualr stuff..... or infinetly better or any of that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am sayng that you people who ran out of TESTED content should have seen it comming.  Not only that, but I don't want the to fix it as priority #1... I want them to fix all the broken crap that is in the content levels the MAJORITY of the subcribers are experiencing..... you can suffer till the next expansion.... that is my opinion, you advanced past SOE's curve.... and based on how SOE has  handled every release of a game they have made, you really are just shouting into the empty air, they are moving at the same pace they have every time..... and since SOE has made it clear that raiding is NOT the end all be all of EQ2, they not going to redefine their entire focus for you.... you'll have to wait, sorry.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And yes, my money spends as well as yours, and SOE cares about my input just as much as yours... and I will try to make them fix broken "Average" level content before high content..... cause that is what I care about right now.  You may do the same if the situation was reversed, and maybe I would complain about the high end loot, or maybe I would look at the whole situation and figure out some other way to spend my time if I don't feel I am getting my $ worth.</DIV>

[Melamp]

<blockquote><hr>Valhuru wrote:<DIV>OH .. and for the record, as a casual gamer that posts on this thread....</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I am NOT saying that raid loot should be obtainable by solo people... or equal to regualr stuff..... or infinetly better or any of that.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I am sayng that you people who ran out of TESTED content should have seen it comming. Not only that, but I don't want the to fix it as priority #1... I want them to fix all the broken crap that is in the content levels the MAJORITY of the subcribers are experiencing..... you can suffer till the next expansion.... that is my opinion, you advanced past SOE's curve.... and based on how SOE has handled every release of a game they have made, you really are just shouting into the empty air, they are moving at the same pace they have every time..... and since SOE has made it clear that raiding is NOT the end all be all of EQ2, they not going to redefine their entire focus for you.... you'll have to wait, sorry.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>And yes, my money spends as well as yours, and SOE cares about my input just as much as yours... and I will try to make them fix broken "Average" level content before high content..... cause that is what I care about right now. You may do the same if the situation was reversed, and maybe I would complain about the high end loot, or maybe I would look at the whole situation and figure out some other way to spend my time if I don't feel I am getting my $ worth.</DIV><hr></blockquote>Again someone "casual gamer" who can't read...even thou he as a BS or a B.S. degreeNo on is saying...Hey I beat the game add more to the game for me....NO ONE..stylin, did you say that?I think what stylin and I are saying is that..the game has enough content right now for us...but the reward should be there...I think SS guild..and the rest would do the same mobs over and over and over with no complaints if the reward was worth the time and effort.AGain, SOE hasn't made anything clear about raiding..don't ASSUME that you're brother's best friend's wife said EQ2 isn't eq1 means anything...EQ2 is designed for ALL playstyles...that includes raiding..nuff saidFix broken average content is fine...but right now they are making it so easy for you guys that I doubt I would ever respect a lvl 50 again.Examples are "Ferrott boat ride"...how nice that your grp has to do it once...we had to do it twice..because there were good and evil aligned characters in the grp...Getting to SOL B is gonna be a breeze now, quests in CT will be cheaper and easier.As you can see SOE is catering to you...getting to lvl 50 and getting Ferrott access and getting to SoL B was all done before...now's it's going to be easier so people don't cry it takes them TIME to do something in the game...They want it easier so the can enjoy something..I enjoy challenges...

[Styl]

<DIV>Well said.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And for the people that still think group 4 mobs are just as easy as a regular group mob, because you have 24 people to help you through it,  I can promise has never done a high end raid before.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have <STRONG><FONT size=4>never</FONT></STRONG> killed a group mob, that I wiped to 10 different times, trying to come up with a stratagy to kill him.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have <STRONG><FONT size=4>never </FONT></STRONG>seen a group mob, do and AOE that can WHIPE the entire group in one hit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All the group mobs I have seen are this simple.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tanks says buff up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Buffs are casted.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tank pulls mob to group, group kills.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I want ANYONE to try this on a group 54^^^ x 4 mob.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would love post how to drop some of these higher mobs, just to show you how complex some of them can be, but I really don't like handing out strats that we worked so hard to perfect.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But if you've never been there, and probably have no desire too....sence your fighting us, when were trying to get better loots on these mobs.....then I suppose we are all wasting our time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The players who are lvl 30 with 27 days played, obviously knows way more then somone lvl 50 with close to 50 days played.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Stylin on <span class=date_text>03-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:54 AM</span>

[Valhu]

<DIV>Your not reading either....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I never said that you wanted new content in my last post you [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]....... I said that you wanted the high end content fixed now... and that i wanted the content being used by the majority of the customer base fixed first....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your not well said.... your just saying exactly what stylin wants to hear also.. and you have made no new arguments</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You guys are just reading what you want to... because I don't agree, then I am so misinformed... I am soo low level... I am just so dumb....... actually I just DO NOT AGREE with YOU</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes.. epic mobs should have good loot.... but when the game is chock full of issues, the content used by the least people is going to have to wait</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Look at how we are living in freeport</DIV> <DIV>Look at the Fury, Shadowknight or .... do I have to go on?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SOE has always made it clear that they are going to go with the majority of their customer base.... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Valhu]

<DIV>Double post... but I will take this opportunity to point out that days played means nothing.... my level 7 sales rat has 12 days played, sitting and selling.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Did you also look up the fact that I have 2 accounts and 2 access passes?  Oh... but I can't know what I am talking about cause I dont put all my time into one character.....</DIV><p>Message Edited by Valhuru on <span class=date_text>03-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:14 PM</span>

[aeio]

<blockquote><hr>Melampus wrote:<blockquote><hr>aeiouy wrote:br>Get this through your head, this is NOT EQ1. Encounters are locked in this game. They are designed to be balanced and challenging for the appropriate group. In your example above, you also have 23 other people helping you while the group player has 5. There is NOTHING inherently more difficult about raid encounters, especially not given the system in EQ2.Sorry, but you DO NOT deserve greater rewards.<hr></blockquote>You've never been on an epic encounter have you? have you ever even been part of a two grp raid?For everyone that thinks that Grp^4 mobs are just regular mobs and just as ez because 24 ppl kill them as oppose to 6 you're dead wrong.the example I gave was to show that you xping have the same amount of HP as the tank on a raid..yet you don't even have an idea of how hard these mobs hit do you?It's absolutely mind blowing how someone that has never done something tries to give an opinion.<hr></blockquote>Yeah I have actually, and long before you ever were. I was participating in raids in beta. What does how hard the mobs hit have to do with you thinking you deserve the best loot for you particular playstyle? There are raid level mobs that are level 5. You are so out of touch with the game, you don't even understand it's fundamental design.

[Melamp]

<blockquote><hr>aeiouy wrote:<blockquote><hr>Melampus wrote:<blockquote><hr>aeiouy wrote:br>Get this through your head, this is NOT EQ1. Encounters are locked in this game. They are designed to be balanced and challenging for the appropriate group. In your example above, you also have 23 other people helping you while the group player has 5. There is NOTHING inherently more difficult about raid encounters, especially not given the system in EQ2.Sorry, but you DO NOT deserve greater rewards.<hr></blockquote>You've never been on an epic encounter have you? have you ever even been part of a two grp raid?For everyone that thinks that Grp^4 mobs are just regular mobs and just as ez because 24 ppl kill them as oppose to 6 you're dead wrong.the example I gave was to show that you xping have the same amount of HP as the tank on a raid..yet you don't even have an idea of how hard these mobs hit do you?It's absolutely mind blowing how someone that has never done something tries to give an opinion.<hr></blockquote>Yeah I have actually, and long before you ever were. I was participating in raids in beta. What does how hard the mobs hit have to do with you thinking you deserve the best loot for you particular playstyle? There are raid level mobs that are level 5. You are so out of touch with the game, you don't even understand it's fundamental design.<hr></blockquote>BETA BETA BETA, I don't give a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] about beta...my grandpappy was in WWII does that have anything to do with this game that's live? NO, neither does beta....if you did so much in beta why is so much [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] broke now...think about itThe game is for all play styles...including raiding...I have done everything in the game that you have done so I can give an informed opinion about it...you've not done half the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] I have done yet some of you open your mouth more than a 2 dollar [Removed for Content].A mob hitting for 3000 a pop is more challanging..and should be rewarded accordingly.Yes right now there's many bugs with the game..I don't go on your posts about lowbie stuff needing fix and say don't worry about that..yet you guys come on posts like these and tell high lvl players that its' too bad.the thing is I don't care if you are lvl 20...soon you will be level 50...the rewards for mobs at 20 are in comparison way better than the mobs at 50....the game doesn't scale well.Maybe if you'd done some of the stuff in this game that I have you could make your opinion on some facts..but you killing wasps in EL and saying that you know so much about this game is BS.Why is it that everyone has an opinion about [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] they know nothing about...Hell on the class forums you're see lvl 30's mention what lvl 45+ spells are broken...and it's the same here..you don't have a clue, you've not seen it...all you have is ignorance and heresay....and you still want to posts....go make a posts about newbie content needing to be easier....and be happy

[Thesp]

<DIV>Mobs hit harder because you have more healers to make up for it, the encounter would be trivial otherwise. Who has done what in game has nothing to do with this argument. This is about game design and making top end items available through other means other than raiding. Sorry, but you're not going to get a bunch of +100 health/power, 10 all stat items every time you kill an x2, x3 or x4 mob.</DIV>

[Melamp]

again..the lowbie informs us all how it is.again yes..I agree there is more healing power on the raid...do I think there's is 8 healers there? nobut most likely 2 from an xp grp.and again the tank has relatively the same hp exping as he does in a raid..now If the main tank got 4X the hp, and then you had 4x the amount of healers then I'll accept the arguement of scaled difficulty..but untill I see tanks going around with about 30k hp, I won't.once again..once you have done these encounters..tell me what they are like

[Cast]

<DIV>Instead of you uber elite raid kiddies trying to turn this into evercamp how about you go back there? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wow imagine, SOE put in single group mobs for single groups. Then they added 4 group mobs for..........4 groups or a raid. Dont those 4 group mobs usually drop more things the group mobs? All the chests Ive seen drop or seen ss's of including this thread support that. Evidently that isnt enough. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And some of you that flew right past all the content which you said you didnt might want to go back and look at it again. Every single big or good encounter for groups or multiple groups doesnt have loot that is of the right level. Go back and use that nifty mentor thing and check it out. The only thing thats an absolute to give you something worth your time is a quest. The nice little ring with haste and anything like it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Form a raid in CL or even go down more to WC. Kill the drakota in CL or the named 4^^ in WC and see what you get for it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There isnt a quarantee anywhere for anything other than quests that says your going to get the top of the line of anything and there shouldnt be. </DIV>

[ProteusTielaxi]

Stylin,I completely disagree. Having played EQ1 since beta, I saw how the game was destroyed after Velious, when mudflation skyrocketed.I saw how a game that I could sit and enjoy for a few hours at a time, became a game where the only decent content required 40 person+, 12 hour raids. I saw how the game became utterly boring with 3 DAY long camps for "rare" items. At that point, it ceased to be fun as I have a real life, that precludes me from playing a game for 12+ hours at a time. The politics around some of those raids was laughable, with constant squables over loot, contribution etc. It was like some people took the game as seriously as real life...a real job...etc.EQ2 was ALWAYS meant to be about the casual gamer. EQ1 remains for "teh Uhb3r3st l337 guilds. You all know them, the ones that REQUIRE 30+ hours minimum play, and 2+ raids per week. Enjoy! Just don't try to ruin our game here with mudflation.I like EQ2s content and pace of leveling just fine. I can quest, and xp, and see real progress in my xp bar, and abilities. If you find a lack of high end content, wait. It will come. Be patient. In the meantime, SOE just gave you a few extra character slots. Try leveling another toon! Try from an opposing city, that way you get brand new quests and adventures. If you STILL level too quickly, and are bored, try the real world..its out there too....<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Melamp]

<blockquote><hr>ProteusTielaxi wrote:Stylin,I completely disagree. Having played EQ1 since beta, I saw how the game was destroyed after Velious, when mudflation skyrocketed.I saw how a game that I could sit and enjoy for a few hours at a time, became a game where the only decent content required 40 person+, 12 hour raids. I saw how the game became utterly boring with 3 DAY long camps for "rare" items. At that point, it ceased to be fun as I have a real life, that precludes me from playing a game for 12+ hours at a time. The politics around some of those raids was laughable, with constant squables over loot, contribution etc. It was like some people took the game as seriously as real life...a real job...etc.EQ2 was ALWAYS meant to be about the casual gamer. EQ1 remains for "teh Uhb3r3st l337 guilds. You all know them, the ones that REQUIRE 30+ hours minimum play, and 2+ raids per week. Enjoy! Just don't try to ruin our game here with mudflation.I like EQ2s content and pace of leveling just fine. I can quest, and xp, and see real progress in my xp bar, and abilities. If you find a lack of high end content, wait. It will come. Be patient. In the meantime, SOE just gave you a few extra character slots. Try leveling another toon! Try from an opposing city, that way you get brand new quests and adventures. If you STILL level too quickly, and are bored, try the real world..its out there too....<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>In no way do I mean so put you on the spot but1) what decent content required 40+? how many zones were for lvl 1-40 and how many were for 41-65(70)2) If you don't have the time to play, We all have RL things, some ppl have less, do you feel the ppl that can put in the time that you can't shouldn't appear to be better geared?3) Can you provide a dev/FAQ/ or eq2 manual page where it states the game is FOR/BASED/CATERED/DESIGNED etc exclusively or mainly for casual players.4) When discussing that high lvls players ten to spend hours harvesting to get a rare casual players have pointed out that it should infact be RARE not a given (this is refering to the RARE items/camps)5) most players like the high end content, we're just hoping that the loot table will be fixed so that the encounters are "worth" repeating6) with leveling another character, we're still bound by the game in the current state, where if we by nature play longer that character will still outlevel you for instance and again will be 50 facing the same problem.It's not that ppl get on the game..go to and xp spot and xp till that spot is no longer worth the time then move to a new place all the way up to 50. If this was how I hit 50 I would've stopped long ago.It's if you and 5 friends, perably real life, all work about the same hours and enjoy gaming and getting on Teamspeak/ventrilo and have hours to play you're going to have a good time, and with that amt of time you're going to lvl fast while exploring questing etc.but once you're 50, completed alot of quest, harvested enough rares..there's nothing really to do, not because of skipping things but because you have done them. So you look forward to raiding and being rewarded with appropriate loot. So your 5-8 hours a day playing a month ago is reduced to getting on for 3-4 hours to do raids with your guild...then those raids are useless because loot tables seem to be for low 40's, when I was xping off orange mobs and they dropped a spell for my class it was usually one i could use in a couple levels, but at 50 fighting 52X4 mobs they are droping lvl 43 adept ones, most the loot is from killing lvl 42 xp mobs...so those 4 hours are a frustration and let down vs fun and rewarding. This causes frustration at different lvls. Some ppl/friends quit because of it..then it leaves others that stay hoping for changes, and posts for recognition of the problem.

[Styl]

<DIV>Look, we are not saying that everyone needs to put in 12+ hours a day raiding.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We are saying that the people who do, deserve some reward for doing so.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I really don't care how long you play, what hours you play, whats goin on in your day to day life.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I do care about is when a Mob that takes 2 hours to kill, drops a wooden chest.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Once again, if you dont see a problem with that, then when you manage to hit level 50, I swear, I better never hear a peep out of you about content or loot.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But hell sence the casual player is the MAIN player base, then I guess the stuff will be upgraded by then.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just like everthing else has been made easier, sence when we went through it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For Example</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All the boats are now easier.  All the main instance's ( boats included) have a reduced re-enter time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Majority of the raid mobs have been nurfed, includeing vox, venekor, and darath.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BTW why do you think these were fixed?   Maybe because the POWERGAMER'S complained about it.  So it was FIXED by the time you got there.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hey guess what?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The POWERGAMER'S are complaining about the loot on the 50 epic mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guess what ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your are trying to stop us from getting loot upgraded.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hey guess what?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hope to GOD its not fixed when you get to that point.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hell I don't even know why we put effort into this game,  We might as well petiton, that someone else has better gear, and have the GM's hand us the same loot, on a silver platter with free play time to go with it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Styl]

<DIV>Here is a question for you CASUAL gamers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you play on your free time, and play to be with friends, and play, just to take your time and enjoy the contet.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE,  THAT THE HARDCORE GAMERS HAVE THE BEST LOOT?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If your all about the game, and the experience's in it, then what difference does it make that someone else has better loot?  What difference does it make that 90% of the high end gamers are complaining that the high end loot is crap. This shouldn't concern he CASUAL GAMER.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As long as you have content to keep you busy and loot that matches your level and keeps you equiped, WHY DO YOU CARE?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you are level 30 and still adventuring through EL at your own pace, WHY DO YOU CARE if SoE releases 30 expansions aimed toward the POWERGAMERS?  You are still exploring and having fun right?  You haven't run out of things to do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Because, I can tell you now if SOE decided ot release content for level 30 players, I COULD GIVE A CRAP less.  Its not like the level 50's are gonna go back, and steal mobs(which can't be done) or overrun the content.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its all because you feel you deserve the same loot as someone that puts in 12 hours a day.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its all about one word</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=4>JEALOUSY</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>These entire thread has nothing to do about content, or loot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its all about the casual gamer being <STRONG><FONT size=4>JEALOUS</FONT></STRONG> about the level 50 who puts in 80 hours a week, and has better gear.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't care how you try and twist it, if you seriosly sit down and think about it, us complaing about better loot, has <STRONG><FONT size=4>ABSOLUTELY</FONT></STRONG> nothing to do with the CASUAL gamer, or effects them in any way.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just like the level 50's, don't give a crap about the problems the level 30s are complaining about.  It doesn't effect us, why should we care.  But you don't see a mass of level 50's, complaining that they made the boats easier, or the raid mobs easier, or the 90 million other things easier,  then when we 1st did them.  In fact, we are glad they made it easier for you.  Its because of <STRONG><FONT size=4>US</FONT></STRONG> that things are better for you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So why don't you support us for a change, rather then complain about every little thing we try and change.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=4>It all ends up easier and better for you in the long run.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Stylin on <span class=date_text>03-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:25 PM</span>

[Fais]

<DIV>Interesting read...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I guess I am a casual player.  Play about 12 - 15 hours a week or so, if I am lucky.  Less now that little league has started... kids I tell ya.  Anyways...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I personally think that a lot of the points have been missed by the original poster, whomever he was after reading it all, lol.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also think that saying a soloer, vrs a 6 man group, vrs a 24 man raid force deserve the same loot, is flawed logic.  They shouldn't, at least in my opinion, be afforded the same loot, without putting in the same effort.  A level 20 shouldn't be able to obtain the same loot that a level 50 is.  Any game worth its salt should most definetly have a progressive loot/award system, that is apporpriate for effort and difficulty.  Risk vrs Reward.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Does this mean everyone has to play 80 million hours a week?  Of course not.  But it does mean that some will definetly be getting it faster then others.  If a single solo player could obtain a piece of loot off one mob, that it takes a group to tackle another mob, that yet still drops off another mob that requires a raid force to take down, becomes a rather pointless game in the grouping/guild/raiding ... progression category.  At least to me!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Raid content mobs should have a higher standard loot award, then a group content mob, over a single player content mob.  It has nothing to do with powergaming or being casual.  It has everything to do with what actual risk vrs reward means.  Saying everyone should be able to obtain the same piece of loot, without putting in the same effort, or from the same type of realistic mob, is fairly shortsighted in my opinion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do know, being only level 27 at the moment (and starting from day oe of release), I am very disheartened by the "End Game" raid content rewards.  I see no point in raiding, or wasting my time putting any serious effort into those encounters/parts of the game.  Do it once, perhaps, to say I've done it, but whooopeee!  It would actually be nice to see there was some actual benefit to maintaining a guild (besides the housing and dressing you get from city merchants), and being able to "raid".  It all seems kinda pointless beyond a medium for easier social interaction.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I certainly see no wrong with the desire that the "hardcore" community are pleading for more Risk vrs Reward.  Having a better item drop from a Raid content mob, takes absolutely nothing from me, nor affects me in any way, whatsoever.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I run a guild that is comprised of very casual players.  We get together, have fun, do our thing, which seems to be Heritage Quests at the moment, and just play.  When Vox went down, it wasnt earthshaking.  We looked up, cool, surprised at the loot, and went back to playing.  Loot was pretty lame!  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nobody would of been very happy, back in the day, when Cazic Thule and Fear came into being and when the god finally did die, all he dropped was a Bronze armor pieces that you could pull out of Najena off them Ogres!  The zone would of rotted.  Guk still would of been King, because there was some actual reward for staying in the midst of the froggie madness!  The time it took to break in, clear and kill the god, just isnt on the same level as guk or solb ever was.  You certainly expected more.  Raid vrs Group.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes I realize this isn't EQLive, but I don't know the names of all the upper level mobs or encounters here in EQ2 and it was more for analogy sake.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only difference is that I see is EQ2 actually makes it easier for everyone to do most anything, then EQLive did.  In time, everyone should be able to accomplish eveything that those 50 now have done.  And when you get there, you will be singing the exact same song they are now about the loot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How fun would it of been to get Refuge Isle type armor upgrades for the AQ2-6 mob content?  No, the quests required tackling harder mobs, in more dangerous places, thus you got a decent set of armor.  You have to face the Drains to get the Torque for the Heritage Quest.  Its certainly not dropping in Sunken City off a crab.  Im just trying to apply thier concern to my level range of mob/encounter playing at the time being.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bottom line for me is, I hope the raid loot content (let alone encounters themselves) certainly do get a boost.  I definetly feel raid content, whether it be a BSV raid, or a Cauldron Hollow raid, or a Vision of Vox raid, merits better loot of which is relative for thier difficulty.  Otherwise, why bother!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyways...  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Peace all...</DIV>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stylin wrote:<BR> <DIV>Here is a question for you CASUAL gamers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE,  THAT THE HARDCORE GAMERS HAVE THE BEST LOOT?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Its perfectly ok that a 50 lvl char has much better gear than a 40 lvl char (no matter whos the player)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but its not at all ok if a casual gamer can no longer compete once he reached 40 or 50 with the *hardcoregamer* because REALLY good gear only comes from raid lvl mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SOME *hardcoregamers* actually think that casual gamers who cannot commit themselfes to a guild and havent got the option to play 8 hours a shift should be denied a certain lvl of loot - so once the *endgame* is reached they are on the brighter side of a 2-class-society.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I wont comment on the psychological assumptions this attitude brings to mind</DIV>

[FrostP]

<DIV>I have pa 43 Wizard and find the content perfectly acceptable. There are at least 5 zones I can hunt in not to mention mentoring in all the others. I have 2 alts which I play every now and then just to have some fun with a different class and remind myself what I should be doing to assist those other classes when I use my Wizard. I've been playing since December I think and I havn't touched the cataloguing quests or the collection quests or pretty much most of the exploration quests. I have a full journal of 50 quests all suitable for my level 43 and am looking forward to getting a bigger house finding rares for more unique furniture hell I might even go back to crafting since I gave that up to concentrate on adventuring in Janurary.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is massess to do in the game the real problem is some people spent too long doing one thing and thats all done now because they worked so hard to grind away to reach the "end"......well....congratulations you have reached the pinacle of adventuring!!! now youre complaining there is nothing for you to do? no I don't think thats true at all I think your problem is you have tunnel vision and don't find enjoyment in at least half of what the game has to offer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you rush to the end thats exactly what you get in the focus of what you aim for.....the end!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I actually can't stand raiding, loads of people talking and casting spells and running about and they are all focused in a tiny space so you cant see whats going on, your game lags terribly because everyone is huddled together and the xp is diluted between 4 times as many people then the loot is divided between 4 times as many people. No I think raiding sucks the only reason I ever do a raid is for guild status or for a quest mob. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I like groups of 6, you form a closer bond working together in a small group and its easier to have more fun and the game runs smoother.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is plenty of stuff that needs the developers attention such as class balance, solo content, more quests and more special stuff for crafters to make that dosn't look like all the vendor bought crap. Sure more loot is cool and new mobs to fight is fun but telling the devs they are dropping the ball because they arn't pandering to the players who rushed to the end of the adventuring game and now chose to ignore what other content is still available only makes me laugh. Nobody made you play to 50 day and night constantly that was your choice, suck it up make another character, go back with your main and do all the stuff you outleveled by mentoring others, try getting all the collections completed, aim for the most quests on your server, hell maybe if none of that to your liking you could just suspend your subscription go away for a while enjoy some other games and grind away on them until a majority of players have reached your pinacle of achievement and the devs have polished off a lot of the lower level issues and then maybe just maybe you can spend a few more weeks grinding out that content aswell!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bottom line if you have made 50 and you can't find anything to do thats your fault, youre not looking hard enough at other aspects of the game.</DIV>

[Styl]

<DIV>Once again, another post who FAILED TO READ the entire thread, and decided to throw his 2 cents up anyway.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>NOT ONE LVL 50 is complaing that there is nothing to do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>NO ONE is saying we want an expansion because we have destroyed all the high end mobs and are now bored.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>WE ARE saying that the loot should match the RISK, and the loot has been crap on the high end mobs from the beginning.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ITS not like we have raided all these high end mobs, and have upgraded every single piece of equipment we have, and now want more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The loot from these lvl 50 raid encounters is CRAP, and no one has gotten anything from killing these mobs to make it worthwhile.</DIV>

[Melamp]

<blockquote><hr>Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Stylin wrote:<BR><DIV>Here is a question for you CASUAL gamers.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE, THAT THE HARDCORE GAMERS HAVE THE BEST LOOT?</DIV><DIV> </DIV><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><DIV>Its perfectly ok that a 50 lvl char has much better gear than a 40 lvl char (no matter whos the player)</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>but its not at all ok if a casual gamer can no longer compete once he reached 40 or 50 with the *hardcoregamer* because REALLY good gear only comes from raid lvl mobs.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>SOME *hardcoregamers* actually think that casual gamers who cannot commit themselfes to a guild and havent got the option to play 8 hours a shift should be denied a certain lvl of loot - so once the *endgame* is reached they are on the brighter side of a 2-class-society.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I wont comment on the psychological assumptions this attitude brings to mind</DIV><hr></blockquote>So to clear things up for my understanding.The casual gamer that play 12-15 hours a week hits lvl 50, he still grps with his friends everynight and has a goodtime enjoying the game and looking for quests etc.So my question is this, How is that person "Competeing" with the "hardcoregamer?"Where is the competition between any players in this game?How does Sir Uberbadmofo with 80,000 ac at lvl 50 in anyway interfere or take any enjoyment from your gameplay?Why does it bother you that some ppl have more time to play.What is considered endgame for the casual/non-guilded player?, this is important, because hitting lvl 50 adventure/tradeskilling/quests isn't endgame to a hardcoregamer, it's just the begining, it the experience needed to develope the leather skin needed in order to log in at at play for hours with lag, whipe to a mob multiple times and maybe end up not killing that mob that night.

[Big Da]

<DIV>This post still makes me smile :smileyhappy:</DIV>

[FrostP]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stylin wrote:<BR> <DIV>Once again, another post who FAILED TO READ the entire thread, and decided to throw his 2 cents up anyway.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>NOT ONE LVL 50 is complaing that there is nothing to do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>NO ONE is saying we want an expansion because we have destroyed all the high end mobs and are now bored.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>WE ARE saying that the loot should match the RISK, and the loot has been crap on the high end mobs from the beginning.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ITS not like we have raided all these high end mobs, and have upgraded every single piece of equipment we have, and now want more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The loot from these lvl 50 raid encounters is CRAP, and no one has gotten anything from killing these mobs to make it worthwhile.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Yes I was replying to the initial post.......tough luck for you if you think I'm gonna sit here and read all 103replies to that post before giving my opinon on the original post. (Still enjoying the game you see not enough time).</P> <P>What exactly is the risk at level 50? you can't get debt....you easily make enough money to repair your equipment....what precisely is the risk are you taking attacking a mob that can kill you? Whatever loot you get is reward with no risk worst that could happen you get wiped out and have to recover your shards........You want great loot every time you kill a raid mob all that will do is make people farm that raid mob to sell the great loot after they get it once. </P> <P>Say just for example SOE now looked at your complaint and went and added master chests to these raid mobs every time or some kind of special uber loot to them.....how soon before youre complaining you arn't seeing anything new again? The fact is level 50 groups arn't taking any risk because there is nothing a level 50 can currently lose except time recovering a shard.</P> <P>Oh and last of all.....caps lock dosn't make you any more important or any more right. Youre just showing youre imaturity in the face of opposition that actually has some valid points. There really is no logic in thinking shouting at people or using enlarged text enhances your position.</P><p>Message Edited by FrostPaw on <span class=date_text>03-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:13 PM</span>

[yes4]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> <P></P> <P>Melampus wrote:<BR><BR>So my question is this, How is that person "Competeing" with the "hardcoregamer?"<BR><BR>Where is the competition between any players in this game?<BR><BR>How does Sir Uberbadmofo with 80,000 ac at lvl 50 in anyway interfere or take any enjoyment from your gameplay?<BR><BR>Why does it bother you that some ppl have more time to play.<BR> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Oh god... I come back to this thread to read this first? If we were to accept this comment, everyone who level up should get automatically the same best of the best gear according to your level. There would be NO point in tradeskill, and using the broker because everyone would get the same gears. That would be perfectly fair. Someone who plays 1 minute a month would end up with the same gear as someone who spent 1 month. Fair for everyone? For the casual 1 minute guy... yeah!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't think it is about interfering between players. It is about the time you spend versus the reward. You should get the better goods according to the game time and the difficulty of the encounter. If I fight a level 1 puny rat for 5 second, I should not get 10 master spells. If I fight a dragon level 54 that need a full raid with only level 50 players with top gears and all master spells, I should not get 1 pelt for a reward.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PS: Come on... someone closes this thread and send it to the glass house. The IQ is degenerating.</DIV><p>Message Edited by yes4me on <span class=date_text>03-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:17 PM</span>

[Melamp]

Not sure what you are trying to say with that post..but for example, tradeskilling is basically useless right now...imoThere should be Risk vs. reward...I think when you kill a named mob with a grp it should drop something but also it shouldn't be as good as raid loot..whybecause you are basically just XPing and come across a mob that is designed for an xp grp. no need to get a certain class...no need to get more ppl to come, no need for anything acept xp like normal off of it and claim a reward

[Thesp]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Melampus wrote:<BR>Not sure what you are trying to say with that post..<BR><BR>but for example, tradeskilling is basically useless right now...imo<BR>There should be Risk vs. reward...I think when you kill a named mob with a grp it should drop something but also it shouldn't be as good as raid loot..why<BR><BR>because you are basically just XPing and come across a mob that is designed for an xp grp. no need to get a certain class...no need to get more ppl to come, no need for anything acept xp like normal off of it and claim a reward<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> So you're saying that there can't be named mobs/instances that are designed to challenge and push a group to its limits?

[Melamp]

<blockquote><hr>Thespar wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Melampus wrote:<BR>Not sure what you are trying to say with that post..<BR><BR>but for example, tradeskilling is basically useless right now...imo<BR>There should be Risk vs. reward...I think when you kill a named mob with a grp it should drop something but also it shouldn't be as good as raid loot..why<BR><BR>because you are basically just XPing and come across a mob that is designed for an xp grp. no need to get a certain class...no need to get more ppl to come, no need for anything acept xp like normal off of it and claim a reward<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>So you're saying that there can't be named mobs/instances that are designed to challenge and push a group to its limits?<hr></blockquote>I think there can be, and I think there will be.But when you think of named 1 grpable mobs which ones are you thinking of? I have screenshots and screenshots of different ones I have seen and killed. Like I said they were killed moments after seeing them with a grp I was xping with..they aren't much different imo than any other grpable mobs that I would just use to gain xp.

[Big Da]

<DIV>I think only players who take part in a 2 month long raid encounter should get the best loot, not you 12 hour slackers, it all about risk vs. reward after all. I’m risking my ability to blink so I want a reward!<BR> <BR>Risk = Reward, True. I think exceptional loot should only go to those who are the first to defeat a raid encounter. This way if you die the risk is someone else might beat the encounter first! Otherwise people with lots of free time can just farm raids for good loot. This makes you persistent, not skilled. There is no risk, so should be no reward!<BR> <BR>To my surprise yesterday I found that however many times I submitted a proposal to my boss I only got credit for it once! I spent hours writing a report for the same thing all over again! This is the world turned upside down! I am off to the vending machine to farm for Chocolate. If I am lucky I might get a rare, two bars drop instead of one!<BR> <BR>Whichever side of the debate you were on, this has been fun! :smileyhappy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Ibis]

making fun of the idea of risk vs. reward is true. its been said by many raiders in the past that the proper equation is "Effort vs. Reward". Effort is what some call risk. My guild "risks" their time, but no we neither lose much nor have the capacity to lose much. We do spend a great deal of effort though. and we'd like to be justly rewarded for the time we spent. i do believe even casual players should have content to perform after they hit level 50 to continue to upgrade their character. that content should not be harvesting the feerrott for hours though. No one should have to do that as the most efficient use of thei time, but it IS the most efficient use of time for most 50+ whether you raid or not to gain upgrades to your character.I fully support stylin's argument that raids need a lot of work. I'd go further and say raids are also too easy and too predictable. They should change it up. I'd like mob's to randomly go through IF THEN arguments to modify their script. We might debuff his slashing resistance to a certain point and he'll mem wipe or we might get his HP to 80% where he'll either A) perform an AE power drain on mental resist, B) summon adds to assist him, C) Death Touch a random player in the raid, D) Debuff our melee skills, etc. etc. And have him pick one of them and do it every 10%. Then we're spending far more effort b/c it ISN'T the same encounter twice.PoP was perhaps the most fun expansion ever as far as raids go. different bosses were DIFFERENT and there were lots of them (PoP was also an excellent casual expansion so whiners can [Removed for Content] off). then GoD came and things changed more (hi bugs), entire zones bent around a theme. It was really exciting to try challenging events (ones that worked correctly) and win b/c it was something different. Few raids in EQ2 are like that. Venekor is dull, Nagalik is dull, zarvonn epic is dull, Fist is dull, vaz'gok is dull, kra'thuk is dull, darathar is dull. King Drayek - Draconic, Regnog the Angler, and The Vision of Vox are the most interesting and fun encounters I've done. I think those events are more or less working well (angler could lose a few HP and kick up the danger a little). It doesn't take millenia to slay either event, and they keep you on your toes every minute.

[Big Da]

<DIV>My issue is that there is a curve that we are all on as to how much effort yields the best reward. From a casual gamers standpoint I don’t want the required effort to be such that I can not achieve it with my other commitments. I’m not saying is shouldn’t have to invest time, but just not too much.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A lot of the argument boils down to the fact that at the moment the great deal of effort the hard core are putting in is simply too much for the game. The casual gamer is happy this is true and the more hard core are not. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The casual gamers saw this coming and may come off condescending with our “we told you so” attitude, which I completely understand. If we complain it is because we saw how hard core ruined many past games. We just don’t want you to mess this one up for us!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After a certain point Effort = Wasted Time!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You cannot expect EQ2 to fill all of your free time! </DIV>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Big Dave wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After a certain point Effort = Wasted Time!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You cannot expect EQ2 to fill all of your free time! </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>That brings it to the point.</P> <P>Except maybe that you CAN expect from EQ2 to fill all your free time - you just CANNOT expect to get <STRONG>rewarded</STRONG> for every minute you spend on the game.</P> <p>Message Edited by Tradeskill_Addict on <span class=date_text>03-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:36 AM</span>

[Cast]

<DIV>Stylin your like a bad broken record. If you want to be uber and have everything that noone else has go back to evercamp. Thats exactly what your trying to turn this game into. </DIV>

[aeio]

Here is a question for the hardcore uber raider?How come just going out with your guild and friends every night and bringing down those big baddies is not enough for you? Why do you think being a small fish in a big pond deserves more rewards than being a bigger fish in a smaller pond? The game has been designed around grouping.. Not soloing, and not raiding. Grouping is the core metric. There is no reason that grouping should not have access to the best rewards in the game. Fortunately EQ2 doesn't have the zerg raids that were such a huge part of EQ1's history were literally a significant portion of uber raiders did NOTHING to earn the equipment they got... That being said, there is no reason to place all the best rewards on large group mobs, none.If raiding is fun for you to do, then do it and enjoy it. If you only do it for loot, then guess what you don't have to do it if you don't want to. The problem is one of elitism. People pursue a path that a lot of others don't enjoy with the sole purpose of getting something others can't. Sorry, but that dynamic drove lots of people away from EQ1. If they repeat here, they will do exactly the same thing. Lots of people raided in EQ1 because they didn't have a choice.You can claim all this about is jealousy, but it is not.. it is about balance. Like I said, most of you apparently only raid so you can get stuff nobody else can have.. Has nothing to do with the challenge of the encounter, or overcoming the odds to win, which are all rewards in and of themselves. Every last one of you simply whines and complains the loot sucks and is not worth your time. Funny thing is most of us who don't want to see the best loot limited to raid encounters, will and have done raid encounters simply for the enjoyment of defeating the encounter, and not for the promise of fat loot.It would be a HUGE mistake for the EQ2 team to turn this into EQ1-raidfest.

[Ethi]

<DIV>The game can support both raiders and non raiders.  I'm not sure why people seem to want to limit this.  Doing new things needs to generate new rewards and variety.  If every mob droped chain armor and there was only one type, people who killed the solo rats and then progressed to killing scarecrows would feel upset that they didn't get more for the effort to take down the tougher mob.  I guess it's key in any fantasy that the tougher the mob the greater the reward.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You don't fight the dragon to just kill him, you fight him for the dream of going through his hord!  If it takes 10 rare components and a journey through 50 mobs to access his lair.  Then a group of 20 stalwart adventurers and you finally get to the dragon and kill him after many hours of work.  Then isn't it natural to expect a reward that is equally unique?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The game is about progression.  You progress through levels and then you progress through greater and greater challenges.  The driver is the Loot and rewards.  This both drives you and enables you to meet greater and greater challenges.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Time played does = progression.  This should be the case for soloing, grouping and raiding.  I'd suggest that all three paths should exist but at a layered reward.  So for time played the solo players reward is less than grouping and grouping is less than raiding.   Why should there be a better reward for raiding vs soloing?  Because this is a social game about building communities and adventuring together.  By providing better rewards for guild activities you encourage people to become part of these communities.   That and the fact that these things are layered.  A hard core player will do all three tracts and would expect that for the difficulty of setting up and coordinating that more complex multiplayer encounters that the rewards would be greater.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So yes killing the dragon that rules the zone should be more rewarding that killing the newtlings that are at the zone in.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To do otherwise is just absurd.   Just set aside all your interests or biases and look at it from a simple fantasy game standpoint.  The adventurer and his band don't kill the dragon to get dragon meat, and a steel sword.  They kill it to get access to it's legendary horde and priceless loot!!</DIV>

[Valhu]

<DIV>Your level 50.... im so jealous of you Stylin... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>what a joke...... and a <FONT size=4>HUGE EGO</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4>EGO EGO</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4>EGO</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Look... I can keep capitalizing and enlarge something too.  Wheee!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You keep telling people that disagree that they can't read, won't read, or that they are jealous.... but you still are not convincing us.....  Maybe it is like organized religion and we can never see things the same way.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Valhuru on <span class=date_text>03-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:04 AM</span>

[Big Da]

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV align=left> <HR> </DIV> <DIV align=left>To do otherwise is just absurd.   Just set aside all your interests or biases and look at it from a simple fantasy game standpoint.  The adventurer and his band don't kill the dragon to get dragon meat, and a steel sword.  They kill it to get access to it's legendary horde and priceless loot!!</DIV> <DIV align=left> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>But then the dragon repops, we go back tomorrow and we kill him again and get more loot and again ...... thats just stupid from a fantasy point of view</P> <P>The first to kill the Dragon should get good items, the new expansion pack says just this. There is a new raid encounter and a reward for the first group to kill it on each server.</P> <P> </P> <P>EGO :smileywink:</P>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ethion wrote:<BR> <DIV>....The adventurer and his band don't kill the dragon to get dragon meat, and a steel sword.  They kill it to get access to it's legendary horde and priceless loot!!</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I always thought it was about that beautiful maiden that gets sacrificed to the dragon otherwise :smileysurprised:<BR>

[Prax]

<DIV>There is no doubt the high end game is broken, the most obvious problem being the<BR>lack of loot. For example last night my guild raided all evening - we killed ragnog<BR>the angler then three dragons - four full raids - and got NOTHING decent. Wooden<BR>chests every time. This is what happens most nights we raid ! When 24 people raid for 5 hours<BR>and get not one decent drop, something is VERY wrong. People complained in /gu all night</DIV> <DIV> and at this rate it won't be long before we all end up leaving. Every few days a couple</DIV> <DIV>of level 50's I  know quit the game.<BR>Why raid if no loot is dropping ? Considering it would be so easy to fix this, I don't<BR>understand what is going on with SOE. Its like they want high level players to quit<BR>or something. All they have to do is make it so epic encounters usually drop master chests.<BR>Thats the way it is in EQ Live, you know the game where players at max level stay subscribed<BR>for years because raiding is actually rewarding ?! For chrissakes make raid mobs drop loot<BR>that is a proper reward for the effort !</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What's also lame is the actual opposition to this from people who should just mind<BR>their own business; because fixing the end game really shouldn't affect them .</DIV> <DIV> 1) The die hard crafters who think they should make the high end items<BR>instead of them dropping from raids. Guys like that ruined Horizons, a game that was totally<BR>crafter oriented...so pretty soon all the adventurers left and the company went bankrupt.<BR>I wish crafters would get it through their heads that it is not nearly as fun to buy an item<BR>from a crafter as it is to loot it off a mob. But anyways there's a big market for them already, outside</DIV> <DIV>of 'end-game' items. </DIV> <DIV>2) The casual players with the 'gimee' attitude.<BR>You know the ones who play 10 hours a week and think they should get the same loot as raiders.<BR>Please. There's no way a casual player killing [Removed for Content] mobs for an hour or two here and there<BR>should see the kind of loot you get from 24 people working together and creating and executing<BR>tactics to win encounters that may take hours and hours of work and attempts.<BR>Just like in real life, the rewards should scale to the efforts you put out. EQ2 isn't suposed<BR>to be some sort of communist utopia where mediocrity is rewarded. Yes the game should be<BR>rewarding for casual gamers...but even more rewarding for those who put in more effort.</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Praxus on <span class=date_text>03-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:05 AM</span>

[Melamp]

<blockquote><hr>Big Dave wrote:<DIV>My issue is that there is a curve that we are all on as to how much effort yields the best reward. From a casual gamers standpoint I don’t want the required effort to be such that I can not achieve it with my other commitments. I’m not saying is shouldn’t have to invest time, but just not too much. </DIV><hr></blockquote>Here goes....1) How much time a night do you have to invest...generally2) How much time does one epic encounter take?So if #1 > #2 would you do it?so again, when you hit lvl 50, and your casual friends are all lvl 50, and you get on for your general 2-3 hours a night, and you have time to take down a raid encounter will you?If you are unwilling to do what you have the time to do, do you still expect rewards on the same scale?

[Big Da]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Praxus wrote:<BR> <DIV>There is no doubt the high end game is broken, the most obvious problem being the<BR>lack of loot. For example last night my guild raided all evening - we killed ragnog<BR>the angler then three dragons - four full raids - and got NOTHING decent. Wooden<BR>chests every time. This is what happens most nights we raid ! When 24 people raid for 5 hours<BR>and get not one decent drop, something is VERY wrong. People complained in /gu all night</DIV> <DIV> and at this rate it won't be long before we all end up leaving. Every few days a couple</DIV> <DIV>of level 50's I  know quit the game.<BR>Why raid if no loot is dropping ? Considering it would be so easy to fix this, I don't<BR>understand what is going on with SOE. Its like they want high level players to quit<BR>or something. All they have to do is make it so epic encounters usually drop master chests.<BR>Thats the way it is in EQ Live, you know the game where players at max level stay subscribed<BR>for years because raiding is actually rewarding ?! For chrissakes make raid mobs drop loot<BR>that is a proper reward for the effort !</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What's also lame is the actual opposition to this from people who should just mind<BR>their own business; because fixing the end game really shouldn't affect them .</DIV> <DIV> 1) The die hard crafters who think they should make the high end items<BR>instead of them dropping from raids. Guys like that ruined Horizons, a game that was totally<BR>crafter oriented...so pretty soon all the adventurers left and the company went bankrupt.<BR>I wish crafters would get it through their heads that it is not nearly as fun to buy an item<BR>from a crafter as it is to loot it off a mob. But anyways there's a big market for them already, outside</DIV> <DIV>of 'end-game' items. </DIV> <DIV>2) The casual players with the 'gimee' attitude.<BR>You know the ones who play 10 hours a week and think they should get the same loot as raiders.<BR>Please. There's no way a casual player killing [Removed for Content] mobs for an hour or two here and there<BR>should see the kind of loot you get from 24 people working together and creating and executing<BR>tactics to win encounters that may take hours and hours of work and attempts.<BR>Just like in real life, the rewards should scale to the efforts you put out. EQ2 isn't suposed<BR>to be some sort of communist utopia where mediocrity is rewarded. Yes the game should be<BR>rewarding for casual gamers...but even more rewarding for those who put in more effort.</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P>Message Edited by Praxus on <SPAN class=date_text>03-14-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:05 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>He</DIV> <P>he he</P> <P>he he he he</P> <P> </P> <P>HA HA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA .... ERM :smileyvery-happy:</P>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Praxus wrote:<BR> <DIV>Just like in real life, the rewards should scale to the efforts you put out. </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>In real life you wont get a better salary and a promotion because you sit at your desk in the office for 24 hours. usually people get *rewarded* for quality, not quantity.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Melamp]

AEIOUY WROTE:" Here is a question for the hardcore uber raider?How come just going out with your guild and friends every night and bringing down those big baddies is not enough for you? Why do you think being a small fish in a big pond deserves more rewards than being a bigger fish in a smaller pond?The game has been designed around grouping.. Not soloing, and not raiding. Grouping is the core metric. There is no reason that grouping should not have access to the best rewards in the game. Fortunately EQ2 doesn't have the zerg raids that were such a huge part of EQ1's history were literally a significant portion of uber raiders did NOTHING to earn the equipment they got... That being said, there is no reason to place all the best rewards on large group mobs, none.If raiding is fun for you to do, then do it and enjoy it. If you only do it for loot, then guess what you don't have to do it if you don't want to. The problem is one of elitism. People pursue a path that a lot of others don't enjoy with the sole purpose of getting something others can't. Sorry, but that dynamic drove lots of people away from EQ1. If they repeat here, they will do exactly the same thing. Lots of people raided in EQ1 because they didn't have a choice.You can claim all this about is jealousy, but it is not.. it is about balance. Like I said, most of you apparently only raid so you can get stuff nobody else can have.. Has nothing to do with the challenge of the encounter, or overcoming the odds to win, which are all rewards in and of themselves. Every last one of you simply whines and complains the loot sucks and is not worth your time. Funny thing is most of us who don't want to see the best loot limited to raid encounters, will and have done raid encounters simply for the enjoyment of defeating the encounter, and not for the promise of fat loot.It would be a HUGE mistake for the EQ2 team to turn this into EQ1-raidfest."-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------1) going out with the guild is fun, but you have to think about this. There are 24 personalities at work, 1-4 officers with ideas/commands. PPL with high emotions tide into the game.With these mobs there are many ways that an entire raid can wipe and cost coin/time/arguements. This builds alot of tension. And when all is said an done you come back together when you accomplish your goal and get the reward.I remember various times in sports where there was so much anxiety before the big game...the team was very emotional pointed fingers (Jon you stayed up till 3am knowing this was today, OMG you're going to cause us to lose) those kinda things flying around. But when you won the game...no one remember the yelling and screaming and the pain...You run up and get your rewards/recognition.Same should be true with a game..matter of fact I want an MP3 of QUEEN singing We Are the Champions everytime I kill a mob...it should be something to celebrate....but SoE doesn't have that, they don't have a recognition program, so what would be nice and easily done...is loot that shows the accomplishment of a grand scale victory.2) Once again, please show some dev posts, FAQ excerpt, Game manual, etc. to prove the design intentions of grping vs any other form of gameplay.3) If you do raiding for loot and you consider that fun, does it still count?This line brings up another question. If I pursue a path (raiding) that others (you/casual) don't enjoy with the purpose of getting something (Loot) that others (you/casual) CAN'Tnow, explain the CAN'T, is it impossible if so how?now if the can't is because you don't enjoy raiding, which should have better loot, therefore you don't get that loot then that's another problem.The problem there is that you are unwilling to do another form of game play and you wish that the only form of game play you do (grping) provide the only/best rewards. Now if this is the case, please explain how you think raiders are arrogant?Because I, as well as 99% of all other lvl 50's have spent hours, actually weeks, doing nothing but being in a 1 grp playstyle. We all have at times soloed. We now are WILLING to go to a different playstyle(Raiding). Don't confuse Willingness of impossible.<p>Message Edited by Melampus on <span class=date_text>03-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:30 AM</span>

[Valhu]

<DIV>Mind my own business.... lol... I pay same as you, maybe more because of my options and multiple accounts... that makes it my business.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh... and fixing the end game doe affect me... cause it requires time that could be spent on the developers on content that I am more worried about like....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Shadowknights </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=9&message.id=7930" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=9&message.id=7930</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Paladins</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=7023" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=7023</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Defilers</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=20&message.id=2369" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=20&message.id=2369</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Inquisitors</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=14&message.id=3433" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=14&message.id=3433</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Need I go on?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry that I want the mechanics of the game to be fixed before you get your "super-cool" make me 733t gear that you so deserve.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh... and you have a lot of nerver to refer to casual gamers as having a "gimmie" attitude based on the whole concept of this thread.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Valhu]

<DIV>"Because I, as well as 99% of all other lvl 50's have spent hours, actually weeks, doing nothing but being in a 1 grp playstyle. We all have at times soloed. We now are WILLING to go to a different playstyle(Raiding). "</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>15% of people say that they lie on 45% of all questions that they are asked about statistics that involve more than 33% of their day, because 50% of them are on the way to somewhere and another 22% don't have enough loose change in their pockets to provide more than 11% of the fee.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh and 55% of people admit to making up 75% of thier statistics on the spot, but 12% of them realize that it proves nothing and just makes them look like they are trying to sham their way through a discussion... 30% of the time.</DIV>

[Melamp]

I doubt those issues are causeing suscribers to leave the game.hell I'm a 50 mystic, Wards, the class defining spell is broken as hell. Yet I still managed to hit 50.Buffs, App 1 are as good as master/adept 3 heals are below par with other priests.I've posted about these issues. Not a single response from the devs.But I am still able and willing to play the game without them as if there is still purpose to the game and I can still be productive doing those purposes then I will march on without being a FIXED class.Yet when you take the purpose away from games...then it doesn't matter if the class is fixed or not.Entire raiding GUILDs have quit the game...that's 30 ppl from one server...ever see a class thread where 30 SKs quit because their lvl 38 ability is broke?

[Big Da]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Here goes....</P> <P>1) How much time a night do you have to invest...generally<BR>2) How much time does one epic encounter take?</P> <P>So if #1 > #2 would you do it?</P> <P>so again, when you hit lvl 50, and your casual friends are all lvl 50, and you get on for your general 2-3 hours a night, and you have time to take down a raid encounter will you?</P> <P>If you are unwilling to do what you have the time to do, do you still expect rewards on the same scale?<BR>________________________________________<BR>I would intend on doing each raid encounter at least once, but there is now way I would log on each night to repeat the process. It may be a few months more before im level 50. At this point I would expect there will be a sizeable amount of level 50 players and hopefully more content. I never said I had anything against raids; I have a problem with players who say they deserve great loot for doing something that is repeatable. IMO raids should give you exceptional loot once and the mediocre loot after that. As I have said previously</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV>

[Melamp]

<blockquote><hr>Valhuru wrote:<DIV>"Because I, as well as 99% of all other lvl 50's have spent hours, actually weeks, doing nothing but being in a 1 grp playstyle. We all have at times soloed. We now are WILLING to go to a different playstyle(Raiding). "</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>15% of people say that they lie on 45% of all questions that they are asked about statistics that involve more than 33% of their day, because 50% of them are on the way to somewhere and another 22% don't have enough loose change in their pockets to provide more than 11% of the fee.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Oh and 55% of people admit to making up 75% of thier statistics on the spot, but 12% of them realize that it proves nothing and just makes them look like they are trying to sham their way through a discussion... 30% of the time.</DIV><hr></blockquote>Well I will give a margin of error of 1% maybe 1% of lvl 50's soloed all the way to 50...I doubt it but I gave that much...just to show that we've done the play style..for even longer than most of you.yet the casual gamer comes back with non-sense only to show that he doesn't recognize that others have done everything he has done and didn't complain about it yet he hasn't done what they have done and he tries to [Removed for Content] attempts to get things fixed

[Styl]

<DIV>Yes, I do have a lot of freeking nerve. Cause thats what this is all about, the casual gamer complaining that they don't wanna put in the amount of time that a hardcore gamer does, and they expect the same loot if not better then that hardcore gamer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sounds pretty much like a "gimmie" attitude to me.<BR></DIV> <DIV>The hard core gamers are the ones that are 45+ days played, 12 hour days, etc, etc.  If thats a GIMMIE attitude then i'll kiss your [Removed for Content].  Thats called working for a goal, something it seems the new generation has no idea what that means.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You don't want the devs to fix the high end content because that would take there time off of fixing your lvl 30 crap?  Why do you 90% of your level 30 crap is getting fixed?  Ya thats right, the hardcore complaining about it when they were going through it to make it EASIER and BETTER for you.<BR></DIV> <DIV>Why don't you complain about them wasting time, by comming up with an adventure pack already???  None of the hardcore gamers are complaining about wanting new content, we just want the current stuff fixed.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh but thats right the new content is geared for 30-45......so I can understand why your not complaining about them wasteing time on that and not fixing your SK's.  This content is for you, of course your not gonna complain.</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Stylin on <span class=date_text>03-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:46 AM</span>

[Melamp]

<blockquote><hr>Big Dave wrote:I would intend on doing each raid encounter at least once, but there is now way I would log on each night to repeat the process. It may be a few months more before im level 50. At this point I would expect there will be a sizeable amount of level 50 players and hopefully more content. I never said I had anything against raids; I have a problem with players who say they deserve great loot for doing something that is repeatable. IMO raids should give you exceptional loot once and the mediocre loot after that. As I have said previously</P></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV> </DIV><hr></blockquote>but the thing is....if a mob drops 3 great items just once...then only 1/8th of the raid is getting better stuff than what they had.Is the mediocre loot then to be on the same scale as the best loot from 1 grpable mobs?How do you design an encounter to know that the same ppl have beat it? what if that raid adds someone to it that wasn't there for the first kill, does the mob then drop 1 great piece of armor?Or did you intend for that mob only drop great loot 1 time and that time to be yet forever and for everyone.Wouldn't this make everyone mad except 3 ppl on the entire server?

[Big Da]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stylin wrote: <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh but thats right the new content is geared for 30-45......so I can understand why your not complaining about them wasteing time on that and not fixing your SK's.  This content is for you, of course your not gonna complain.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Not the same team at SOE.</DIV>

[Big Da]

<HR> but the thing is....if a mob drops 3 great items just once...then only 1/8th of the raid is getting better stuff than what they had.<BR>Is the mediocre loot then to be on the same scale as the best loot from 1 grpable mobs?<BR>How do you design an encounter to know that the same ppl have beat it? what if that raid adds someone to it that wasn't there for the first kill, does the mob then drop 1 great piece of armor?<BR>Or did you intend for that mob only drop great loot 1 time and that time to be yet forever and for everyone.<BR>Wouldn't this make everyone mad except 3 ppl on the entire server?<BR> <HR> <BR> <DIV>Just link it to a Quest .... </DIV>

[Melamp]

<blockquote><hr>Big Dave wrote:<HR>but the thing is....if a mob drops 3 great items just once...then only 1/8th of the raid is getting better stuff than what they had.<BR>Is the mediocre loot then to be on the same scale as the best loot from 1 grpable mobs?<BR>How do you design an encounter to know that the same ppl have beat it? what if that raid adds someone to it that wasn't there for the first kill, does the mob then drop 1 great piece of armor?<BR>Or did you intend for that mob only drop great loot 1 time and that time to be yet forever and for everyone.<BR>Wouldn't this make everyone mad except 3 ppl on the entire server?<BR><HR><BR><DIV>Just link it to a Quest .... </DIV><hr></blockquote>Won't work, because the same could be said for every named mob that is soloable/grpable.mobs would stay up forever till till amount of ppl needed are all caught up on the quests.I do think that would be a great idea to implement in a future expansion though... quests/epic mobs tied in and each of them be a quest/mob for a specific slot. Kinda like Old School ToV armor which was quested but killed and repeatable.That way everyone gets the quests and does this that and another untill the have to fight an epic mob, then once it's dead all 24 ppl go back to quest giver and a class specific Helm, then another quest/another mob for chest/legs/hands etc. It would be like an advanced armor class quest. but it should be done along side of itemized loot..No one would take pride in their character if every other guilds' (insert class) has the exact same item in every slot.I remember in eq1 for my class, Paly, the Kael legs were better than the Skyshrine, but most skyshrine was better in the other slots...So I didn't match well but I worked harder to get better items, takes alot of faction to do that <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Big Da]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Won't work, because the same could be said for every named mob that is soloable/grpable.                 <EM>Why?</EM></P> <P><EM></EM><BR>mobs would stay up forever till till amount of ppl needed are all caught up on the quests.                       Why?<BR><BR>but it should be done along side of itemized loot..No one would take pride in their character if every other guilds' (insert class) has the exact same item in every slot.   </P> <P> <EM>Make the reward random, as if a big chest had dropped!</EM><BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> </DIV></FONT>

[Melamp]

<blockquote><hr>Big Dave wrote:<BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Won't work, because the same could be said for every named mob that is soloable/grpable. <EM>Why?</EM></P><P><EM></EM><BR>mobs would stay up forever till till amount of ppl needed are all caught up on the quests. Why?<BR><BR>but it should be done along side of itemized loot..No one would take pride in their character if every other guilds' (insert class) has the exact same item in every slot. </P><P> <EM>Make the reward random, as if a big chest had dropped!</EM><BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><DIV> </DIV></FONT><hr></blockquote>Why have raid only mobs only be for quests..why stop there..why not make every named mob only for a quest..that way a grp doesn't go into RE and kill Mudslinger 5 times a night. And it wouldn't be fair for one play style not to get a reward upfront for killing a mob (epic) than another playstyle such as one grping killing a named mob..so to make things fair/equal to all play styles then all named mobs should be acting the same.because the mob/instance would have a re-enter timer/spawn timer...so if it takes 24 ppl to kill a mob but only 2 at the time need it for quest I would think it would stay up till more ppl are at that point on the quest. but again if it were random then certain classes couldn't use, and they will never ever get loot from that mob..since the quest isn't repeatable..

[Valhu]

<DIV>You guys are hilarious.... I can just picture you sitting at your computer red faced and yelling at my posts... lol</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>"I doubt those issues are causeing suscribers to leave the game."</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Are you serious?  Try reading some of those posts... many SK's have left or quit playing that class over these issues.  Sk's are not even feeling usefull on the very raids you are whining about the loot for.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>"Yet when you take the purpose away from games...then it doesn't matter if the class is fixed or not."</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Purpose?  Lol... get some sun brother.  Who defined the purpose of EQ2 as raiding for PHAT loot?  You?  If you can not even play the class, then you have no means to meet said "purpose"....  my "purpose" for playing is for entertainment.... it's not some life defining achievement to get raid loot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>"Entire raiding GUILDs have quit the game...that's 30 ppl from one server...ever see a class thread where 30 SKs quit because their lvl 38 ability is broke?"</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>30 people out of (lets be pessimistic) 2000 people on the server?  Boo hoo... money talks, and if it was really impacting them you would see more rapid action.  Also, you have no idea how many SK's may have quit... your just assuming, no real info... just assumptions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>"Well I will give a margin of error of 1% <BR>maybe 1% of lvl 50's soloed all the way to 50...I doubt it but I gave that much...just to show that we've done the play style..for even longer than most of you."</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wow, a margin of error of 1% for something you have no actual numbers for.... your so smart!  Your statement still proves nothing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>"yet the casual gamer comes back with non-sense only to show that he doesn't recognize that others have done everything he has done and didn't complain about it yet he hasn't done what they have done and he tries to [Removed for Content] attempts to get things fixed"</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>I am stating my opinion and my reasons for such, how does that equate to nonsense?  Oh thats right!  Cause I don't agree with you.... my bad... how have you done EVERYTHING I hav done in the game?  How do you even have any idea whether that is true?  Again, another flawed reaching assumptions... no real evidence, but your trying to act like it is written in stone somewhere.  Your an angry little person trying to make yourself look correct... when on a matter of opinon, you can not prove that you are right at all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>"Yes, I do have a lot of freeking nerve. Cause thats what this is all about, the casual gamer complaining that they don't wanna put in the about of time that a hardcore gamer does, and they expect the same loot if not better then that hardcore gamer."</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wow? Really?  I thought it was about not feeling that your raid loot was properly 733t?  You are actually trying to set up some kind of value system based on play time?  Oh... and it was not you tha comment was directed at, but your buddy Melampus.  Still, you are not reading what I am saying... you just get mad apparantly and hit reply.  I don't care about the value of the loot from raid mobs vrs group mobs... maybe it should be a little better fine.... but, your OP said that you think the Dev's are blowing it cause they are not focusing on it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you READ some of my posts, you will see that my point (other than bantering with you two) is that end game development should wait until the issues affecting the majority of the paying customers are resolved.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Easy..... (these are totally made up numbers but the trend should be similar)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1000 raiding players @ lvl 50 paying $fee = 1000 x $fee in money for SOE</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>10,000 players @ lvls X (various levels, but not raiders) paying $fee = 10,000 x $fee in money for SOE</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you only suppose that there is 1 hardcore gamer for every 10 casual... if it was your company who would you cater to first to keep in business?  1 in 10 may very well be off, but perhaps one thing we can agree on is that there is more casual gamers than hardcore raiding players.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>"Sounds pretty much like a "gimmie" attitute to me.<BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>The hard core gamers are the ones that are 45+ days played, 12 hour days, etc, etc.  If thats a GIMMIE attitude then i'll kiss your [Removed for Content].  Thats called working for a goal, something it seems the new generation has no idea what that means."</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Putting more time into the game does not "entitle" you to anything.  What was your goal?  To reach level 50? Then you made it... good for you, it does take a lot of time..... notice time not work, cause most anyone can put in enough time to get there.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Was your goal when you started playing to get the best loot?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh.. and what does age or generation have anything to do with this?  Yet another weak assumption... based on what?  I was born in 1974... so am I in the newer generation compared to you or an older one?  Either way, what the heck does that mean? Nothing... lol..... If I notice any problems with my kids and their friends (defiently a new generation) it is that they lack critical thinking skills and are more menu driven, but they can sure sit and play a game all day... so they should be fine in "working toward the level 50 goal"..... oh wait, sorry... ahahahahaha... had to laugh at how stupid it is to bring in generation to this discussion.... hahahahahahha.... ok, im done now.... haha... ok, for real</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>"You don't want the devs to fix the high end content because that would take there time off of fixing your lvl 30 crap?  Why do you 90% of your level 30 crap is getting fixed?  Ya thats right, the hardcore complaining about it when they were going through it to make it EASIER and BETTER for you."</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Are you actually trying to make a point here?  It's rather hard to make any sense of it, but I will try.  90% of the level 30 issues are not being addressed.  Again, where did this magic 90% come from.  I can say that 80% of the raid loot is being upgraded and have as much certainty in it as you.  Quit making up numbers!  Yes, they should make it better... I don't agree with easier, but better... hell yeah, that is why I pay them.  Still, it is an important issue for many more paying customers than the loot of of epic mob xxy is..... cause your right, they are not dealing with it yet.  That is why it is important to you NOW, and not us... we can wait.... we both want the things that are making the game messed up for us fixed, but there are more of us than you likely....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>"Why don't you complain about them wasting time, by comming up with an adventure pack already???  None of the hardcore gamers are complaining about wanting new content, we just want the current stuff fixed. "</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Because it has already been hashed over many times in this very forum that the adventure packs are being deveoped by a different group of coders than those who are resoving issued with mechanics.  Oh... and becuse I can do the adventure pack, it is of intrest to me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>"Oh but thats right the new content is geared for 30-45......so I can understand why your not complaining about them wasteing time on that and not fixing your SK's.  This content is for you, of course your not gonna complain."</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Oh... we did complain about issues not being resolved instead of an adventure pack being released.... but you aready saw what I had to say about that.  I would happily trade the pack back for all the combat arts and spells to be fixed... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You two have a nice pattern of attacking anyone that posts against you... but I'm not scared of your worthless tactics.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Give me a logical argument, give me some real numbers, or at least a reasonable assumption (pulling 90% and 99% out of the air just makes you look ignorant).  Convince me why they should cater to a smaller portion of their customer base over other first, mearly because they have logged in more time?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV>

[Big Da]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><BR>Why have raid only mobs only be for quests..why stop there..why not make every named mob only for a quest..that way a grp doesn't go into RE and kill Mudslinger 5 times a night. And it wouldn't be fair for one play style not to get a reward upfront for killing a mob (epic) than another playstyle such as one grping killing a named mob..so to make things fair/equal to all play styles then all named mobs should be acting the same.</P> <P><EM>Because you want something special from raids!<BR></EM><BR>because the mob/instance would have a re-enter timer/spawn timer...so if it takes 24 ppl to kill a mob but only 2 at the time need it for quest I would think it would stay up till more ppl are at that point on the quest. </P> <P><EM>Why? this is supposed to be exceptional, rare!<BR></EM><BR>but again if it were random then certain classes couldn't use, and they will never ever get loot from that mob..since the quest isn't repeatable..</P> <P><EM>Thats the nature of loot!</EM><BR></P> <P> <HR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Eelyen]

<DIV>The easiest way to explain why raid loot is the best in the game is a simple concept of Time + Challenge = Reward.  I wouldn't really put Risk in there as there isn't a whole lot of risk in this game in any environment from Solo'ing to Raiding.  Other then the potential of losing time spent due to a wipe.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Raiding Content is by far the toughest in the game.  There is no group encounters that can match a 4 group encounter.  So why would people soly focused on Group stuff require the best loot?  They don't.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Raiding Content is alot more then just getting a group together and taking down mobs.  It had leaders, raid management, balancing of resources etc.  There are so many variables that go into a 24 person encounter over a 6 person encounter.  Plus the fact that the 24 person encounters are far more extreme then any group encounter.  These kinds of events take time and patience to setup and execute.  It was not ment for everyone and their dog to be able to walk in and beat.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This comes back to my original statement that Time + Challenge = Reward.  It's not just a Time thing, you can't make an easy encounter 20 hours long and get the same reward.  There is no point.  And making somethihng fast and more challenging just puts it out of a groups range really.  As a group can't have enough resources.  Or it would be limited to a holy trinity of classes.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The greater the Challenge, the better the reward.  It's as simple as that.  That is why Casual level 1 group encounters will almost NEVER have the same level of loot rewards as an equal level Raid encounter.  I use 'almost' cause there are always a few exceptions along the road.</DIV>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stylin wrote:<BR> <DIV>Yes, I do have a lot of freeking nerve. Cause thats what this is all about, the casual gamer complaining that they don't wanna put in the amount of time that a hardcore gamer does, and they expect the same loot if not better then that hardcore gamer. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>As mentioned before - just because you play the same content over and over again you dont need to be rewarded.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And yes, I expect the same salary as phil in the office opposite who works every day until 10 pm. We where hired for the same job after all and we both give our best. If phil thinks he deserves better just for staring at his finished projects while doing overtime no one asked for he'll make my boss first laugh, then angry and will get fired in the end.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Melampus wrote:<BR><BR>..No one would take pride in their character if every other guilds' (insert class) has the exact same item in every slot. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>ok - no I begin to feel sorry for you</DIV>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eelyen wrote:<BR> <DIV>The greater the Challenge, the better the reward.  It's as simple as that.  That is why Casual level 1 group encounters will almost NEVER have the same level of loot rewards as an equal level Raid encounter.  I use 'almost' cause there are always a few exceptions along the road.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>you sound like someone who expects to climb the kilimandscharo each year and to get a $$$$$contract for a documentary on the discovery channel also EACH year.</P> <P>It may be an achievement but just because you have nothing better to do doesn't mean you'll be entitled to make a living out of it.</P> <P></FONT> </P> <P><BR> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Eelyen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eelyen wrote:<BR> <DIV>The greater the Challenge, the better the reward.  It's as simple as that.  That is why Casual level 1 group encounters will almost NEVER have the same level of loot rewards as an equal level Raid encounter.  I use 'almost' cause there are always a few exceptions along the road.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>you sound like someone who expects to climb the kilimandscharo each year and to get a $$$$$contract for a documentary on the discovery channel also EACH year.</P> <P>It may be an achievement but just because you have nothing better to do doesn't mean you'll be entitled to make a living out of it.</P> <P><BR> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>This is a game, not a business.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, I don't consider it that I have nothing better to do.  I consider it that I enjoy spending extra time in the game and love the raiding aspect.  I could very well have better things to do, I just choose to play that extra time.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Eelyen on <span class=date_text>03-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:56 PM</span>

[Eelyen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stylin wrote:<BR> <DIV>Yes, I do have a lot of freeking nerve. Cause thats what this is all about, the casual gamer complaining that they don't wanna put in the amount of time that a hardcore gamer does, and they expect the same loot if not better then that hardcore gamer. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>As mentioned before - just because you play the same content over and over again you dont need to be rewarded.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And yes, I expect the same salary as phil in the office opposite who works every day until 10 pm. We where hired for the same job after all and we both give our best. If phil thinks he deserves better just for staring at his finished projects while doing overtime no one asked for he'll make my boss first laugh, then angry and will get fired in the end.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Again, I repeat.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is a game, not a business.  You can't compare Salary to loot rewards.  If you were hired for the same position then you would of been hired as a raider.  If you are not raiding, you wouldn't get the rewards of it.  Seriously though you can't compare the loot rewards of Everquest 2 to a Salary.  The more work you put in the game, the more you get out of it.  You could think of it more as a Comission.  The bigger and better projects you make or sell, the more money you make out of it.  It's the same in Everquest 1 and 2.  The more work you put into the game, the more you get out of it.  Or as I say, the greater the challenge, the greater the reward.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can assure you that this arguement went on for 4-6 years in Everquest and it never changed.  And I can promise you it will not be any different in EQ2, and that won't change.  The greater the challenge the greater the reward.  And thats the way it should be.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Eelyen on <span class=date_text>03-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:00 PM</span>

[Melamp]

<blockquote><hr>Valhuru wrote:<DIV> Are you serious? Try reading some of those posts... many SK's have left or quit playing that class over these issues. Sk's are not even feeling usefull on the very raids you are whining about the loot for.Purpose? Lol... get some sun brother. Who defined the purpose of EQ2 as raiding for PHAT loot? You? If you can not even play the class, then you have no means to meet said "purpose".... my "purpose" for playing is for entertainment.... it's not some life defining achievement to get raid loot.Wow, a margin of error of 1% for something you have no actual numbers for.... your so smart! Your statement still proves nothing.I am stating my opinion and my reasons for such, how does that equate to nonsense? Oh thats right! Cause I don't agree with you.... my bad... how have you done EVERYTHING I hav done in the game? How do you even have any idea whether that is true? Again, another flawed reaching assumptions... no real evidence, but your trying to act like it is written in stone somewhere. Your an angry little person trying to make yourself look correct... when on a matter of opinon, you can not prove that you are right at alBecause it has already been hashed over many times in this very forum that the adventure packs are being deveoped by a different group of coders than those who are resoving issued with mechanics. Oh... and becuse I can do the adventure pack, it is of intrest to me.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV><BR> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV></DIV><hr></blockquote>left or playing another class? ok so they are still playing..that's great...but the issue here is that the ppl quiting because of the issue in this thread are quiting for good..why play another class..get him lvls then be faced with the same issue that is facing your main character?Who cares if it's another group of coders that make adv. packs vs. game issues...It doesn't matter..it's SoE resources..in house or outsources PAID do something to the game.If my electricity goes out, and I call the utility company to come fix it. and they send a commerical electrian instead of a residental..I don't give a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]..both can do the job..both are getting paid by the hour, fix it and go on....Do you think SoE has some union rep saying "My guys can only do adv. packs we won't even discuss was of fixing existing probs"Convice you why they should cater to a small % of the player base..omg that's every issue.Why fix SK abilities SoE? there are 23 other adv classes and 9 artisan classes why fix 3% of your player base?Why fix "insert quest"? only X players are doing that quest.If you fix things now, when only the power gamers are high enough to see the problem then in months to come others don't have to deal with it.If power gamers are only 1% of the 350k players..that is 1%...in two months it'll be 3%..5 months it may be 10%...get the picture...so instead of 6mos from now having 35k ppl complaining about the same thing and those playing being both hardcore and casual...do something to fix issues...BEFORE they affect you cash cow (casual players)....If powergamers had as much hate toward casual gamers you would see em posting stuff like Fix the loot till my guild farms it all for every member then nerf it so no one else can get it...but it's not like that..it needs to be a perm. fixPurpose? You last couple lines should sum it up for you..Everyone has thier own purpose in the game..some want to just craft and help their guild..some craft thinking they will be recognized as the best..some roleplay..some play just to enjoy graphics. Some raid to get loot..I'm not saying any are right or wrong but don't say that the last listed isn't a purpose to play the game cause it is, and if for whatever reason you lose that purpose then you don't play anymore...if the game wasn't entertain for you, would you still play? yes, I'll stand by my 1%, if you want..start a thread ask, how many ppl that are lvl 50 got there by doing a solo play style...you admit later on in your post that it takes time to hit 50 so don't you think soloing would be even slower? it proves that all the hardcore gamers cept may a very very few did the grp style of play for a long time..they did it..you are just not willing to try raiding as another play style.the non-sense was your posts about pocket change %s and everything else...other posts you write least have some merit one way or another, that was just random non-sense that cause a clinically provem 8 point loss in IQ to everyone that read it.Is it end game developement to fix loot tables..developement would be to add zones/content...we're not asking for that.about the 90% of lvl 30 issues are not being address? 1) they aren't game breaking2) they don't interfere with game progression.If it were a quest that didn't work I can understand...because you cannot progress past a point..but a class spell not doing what it's described to do doesn't stop anyone from doing a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] thing.

[JFerl]

<DIV>I find it rather pathetic that people who post on the forums are bashing the devs. For one they expect some of us to have lives and not level to 50 as quick as possible because thats all you have to do is play everquest 2. Some people have better things to do in their life than spend countless hours sitting behind a computer screen just so they can receive some kind of weird satisfaction from being "UBER". Another thing you must look at is that you are the minority, you account for the least amount of sonys profits atm, and frankly I am sure they just don't give a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] about you. What do they care that they lose 300 high end players, its just less people they have to deal with on the boards, and less people that complain about them doing their jobs. I don't see how you can complain these guys put countless hours into a game that is both fun and enjoyable for the MAJORITY of subscribers. So to all of you who are complaining about the highend content, get a life the real world has more serious issues that people like you could be focusing on. All in all get a life.</DIV>

[Valhu]

<DIV>Your correct, it is not a business, it is a game.... which we all pay for, and we have the right to try and put our issues to the forefront as much as you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh... and this is not EQ1, just because things were this way or that in EQ1 means squat.  I am playing EQ2 because I quit playing EQ1 for a lot of reasons.... most of them have been fixed to my liking in EQ2.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh... and you can not guarantee what the future is going to bring for the game unless you are in charge at SOE, you are just assuming that past behavior is a good indication of future behavior (from SOE) which is not a bad assumption really... but it's no guarantee.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are many aspects of the game to find a challange at other than raiding... there are many ways to increase available "uber" loot other than raiding.  Not every lvl 50 gets to go on raids.... if this is going to be like EQ1 (best challange = reward in raids) then half of the classes will be excluded from raids anyway due to class elitism.... what is your fix for that?  How many people are going to quit playing because the only way to get the best gear is to go on raids.... but their class is only welcome if they are good friends (or as someone to wait on the side with a ressurection feather)?  BTW... this is already starting.... who gives a crap about the loot if you are regarded as useless because SOE gimped your class...</DIV>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<DIV>If you enjoy raiding just for the sheer excitement you shouldnt have any loot problem.</DIV>

[Eelyen]

<DIV>Lets put Challenge aside  for a few minutes.  The arguement I was providing in my previous posts.  And talk about some theoretical stuff.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lets say that Group Level content provided the same level gear as raiding content.  This would make that level gear FAR more accessable then doing it via raids.  So most raiders would gear up VERY fast and wouldn't require loot drop from raids.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What would this lead too?  A very stagnant game.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why? Because sure it might be fun to do a raid encounter once.  But if there is nothing to get out of it cause all of your members are already geared in exactly the same gear from their grouping time.  Then whats the point of going back? None.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So this would lead to a raiding guild probably killing every bit of high end content in a week or two depending on difficulty.  Then they would have very little desire to waste time and effort and money (from dying) to go and repeat the raids for no reward worth the effort. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This would lead to the high end raiders, which is eventually a bit chunk of the game population as judging from EQ1's history, to get extremely bored with the game.  As they have nothing to desire till SoE pumped out some new content.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Do you really think SoE could pump out raid encounters fast enough to keep up with a 1 kill move on system?</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd have to say no.  This would cause the raiders to seek another game, lowering the profit SoE makes from EQ2.  Or the profit <STRONG>OF ANY GAME</STRONG> that allowed this kind of system.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The joy of raiding is not just overcoming encounters.  It is centered very heavily around gaining the best equipment to upgrade your guild.  Then moving on to the next higher level encounter as they come out.  If loot was equal across Solo - Group - and Raiding, then it would totally destroy the raiding aspect of the game.  As it would become totally stagnant. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>That is the major reason why it will NEVER change</FONT>.  Raiding content will always provide the best loot.  Everquest 2 will never change this aspect I assure you.  You will have to wait for a game that announces that from the beginning that anyone will be able to get the best loot.  You cannot expect everything to be handed to you.  </DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text>People can try and say that just because there are very few raiders atm, that their potentially quitting isn't going to hurt SoE's profit margin at all.  But you are thinking now.  What about 1 year from now? How many level 50s will there be? Alot more.  You can't think just now when planning out a hopefully long life term game.  If you step back and think about it, you will understand why it will never change.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Also, I will add.  That if you are so concerned about getting the best loot for content that doesn't require that much gear.  It shows how much you care about getting gear as well.  And why do you think raiders continually hit the same target to gear their guild.  Yes they care about gear and it's FAR more important to get that gear so they can take on harder challenges.  So after saying that, go back and read what I said in my post.  Think about a year from now how many raiders there will be.   Think about it all, and maybe you will understand (although I doubt it) why this is the way it is and always will be.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>It's kinda like going into Nek Castle to work on the Guise of the Deciever Heritage quest.  I don't do Nek Castle for fun.  It was fun 1 or 2 time, now it's just mostly work and less fun.  If there was no point in going in there, I could tell you I wouldn't be going in there.  I'd run out of things to do pretty fast.  Raiding is exactly the same.  It's fun doing it for a reward you cannot get elsewhere.  </SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Eelyen on <span class=date_text>03-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:23 PM</span>

[Melamp]

<blockquote><hr>Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Stylin wrote:<BR><DIV>Yes, I do have a lot of freeking nerve. Cause thats what this is all about, the casual gamer complaining that they don't wanna put in the amount of time that a hardcore gamer does, and they expect the same loot if not better then that hardcore gamer.<HR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><DIV>As mentioned before - just because you play the same content over and over again you dont need to be rewarded.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>And yes, I expect the same salary as phil in the office opposite who works every day until 10 pm. We where hired for the same job after all and we both give our best. If phil thinks he deserves better just for staring at his finished projects while doing overtime no one asked for he'll make my boss first laugh, then angry and will get fired in the end.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><hr></blockquote>Lets not use salary as an example of reward..lets use promotion...or employee of the month...etc et.cYou and Phil got hired in at the same time with the same backgrounds..This job isn't school, it's putting knowledge together and applying it...do you learn more doing things hands on? wouldn't Phil doing hands on work more often then you mean something? Lets say the boss doesn't care how many hours you put in...hell I'm salary, I lose money by staying late...but he does care about projects being completed.So you get a project..it's a 10 hour project (phil should have and advange because he's got more hands on experience, by we're ignore that)So you both get to work on your projects...and you both complete them with equal quality.Yet Phil got his done by lunch on Tuesday, and your's isn't done untill the boss is walking out the door friday afternoon.so, I would hope Phil gets some sort of recognition for the time/dedication he put in....I really don't know where this post came from.....or what it's suppose to mean...just thought it was wierd that ppl think they should always be equal no matter what they are doing...I've lived long enough to know better..and Long enough that I don't expect a game to be different.And as far as wanting to set yourself apart from other players in the game...accomplishments or loot...if you don't feel that then why play an MMORPG?...games like America's Army everyone has the same gun/armor..or diablo where one person can see all the content and get all the gear in the game should be more appropriate..this is an MMORPG..where hundred of thousand of ppl play...and sometimes to acheive great things you will need them...if you don't want to put time into making contacts that will help you when you need them then go to another game that relies less on interaction from real ppl.

[Melamp]

<blockquote><hr>Valhuru wrote:<DIV>there are many ways to increase available "uber" loot other than raiding. Not every lvl 50 gets to go on raids.... if this is going to be like EQ1 (best challange = reward in raids) then half of the classes will be excluded from raids anyway due to class elitism.... what is your fix for that? How many people are going to quit playing because the only way to get the best gear is to go on raids.... but their class is only welcome if they are good friends (or as someone to wait on the side with a ressurection feather)? BTW... this is already starting.... who gives a crap about the loot if you are regarded as useless because SOE gimped your class...</DIV><hr></blockquote>Here's what I was looking for.Why can't every lvl 50 raid?You're a casual gamer that like to make friends and enjoy the game. You and a great % of casual players are now high enough in lvl to take on these epic raids?Why can't you ?Most of you say you play 2-4 hours a night and more on the weekends...there are plenty of epic raids that don't take that much time if you do them right.so you do / all 48-50 there are now 100+ players lvl 50 and a great deal unguilded or part of a casual guild...So I think you have every chance in the world at raiding epic mobs. Want to venture a guess on how many pick up raids I did on VoX/Naggy in EQ1...I had the time of my life doing those. Even had alts lvl 50 just to go on those raidsI'm sorry SoE made this game's epic raids designed around 24 ppl, instead of 72, I think 72 was too many.They made it where versatility is having only 1 of each class...but they made each class pretty generic by making them balanced at the archtype...I loved what each class in eq1 had to offer...it was amazing..from Call of Hero..to necro rezs..to Wizard TLs...to Shrink....to Sow..to Brells Mountain Barrier...everything..but This game is not eq1 and I have to play with the hand dealt...so 24 ppl...leaders usually decide which ppl go if the guild is got plenty of ppl on. but even if you get each class fixed...is there only 24 ppl in your guild? 1 of each class? if not, someone is always going to get left out..even from your own guild.

[Valhu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> </P> <P>Melampus wrote:<BR><BR>left <FONT color=#ffff00>or</FONT> playing another class? ok so they are still playing..that's great...but the issue here is that the ppl quiting because of the issue in this thread are quiting for good..why play another class..get him lvls then be faced with the same issue that is facing your main character?<BR></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Some people are quitting for good based on the issues with their classes.  Why reroll into another gimped class?</FONT><BR><BR>Who cares if it's another group of coders that make adv. packs vs. game issues...It doesn't matter..it's SoE resources..in house or outsources PAID do something to the game.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Yes, it does matter in fact.  You obviously have no idea how project management works in a corporate envirornment.  You as the consumer do not care who works on what, but for the purpose of task management and product deveolpemtn they sure do.  Some companies have two or more development teams working on generation X of a product and generation Y at the same time.</FONT></P> <P><BR>If my electricity goes out, and I call the utility company to come fix it. and they send a commerical electrian instead of a residental..I don't give a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]..both can do the job..both are getting paid by the hour, fix it and go on....Do you think SoE has some union rep saying "My guys can only do adv. packs we won't even discuss was of fixing existing probs"</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Not the same thing.  People who are deveoping new content are doing different work than those who are delving through old code trying to fix problems.  No, I don't think SOE has some union rep... I think they have managment who are trying to support their products while developing more also.</FONT><BR><BR>Convice you why they should cater to a small % of the player base..omg that's every issue.<BR>Why fix SK abilities SoE? there are 23 other adv classes and 9 artisan classes why fix 3% of your player base?<BR>Why fix "insert quest"? only X players are doing that quest.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Because new player X is going to encounter these issues right away, while the end game content they won't see for.... by your own claims at least a month.</FONT><BR><BR>If you fix things now, when only the power gamers are high enough to see the problem then in months to come others don't have to deal with it.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>True, but what about the issues I am seeing now?  I should just smile and think about how when I get to lvl 50 the raid loot will be fixed... yay!</FONT></P> <P><BR>If power gamers are only 1% of the 350k players..that is 1%...in two months it'll be 3%..5 months it may be 10%...get the picture...so instead of 6mos from now having 35k ppl complaining about the same thing and those playing being both hardcore and casual...do something to fix issues...BEFORE they affect you cash cow (casual players)....If powergamers had as much hate toward casual gamers you would see em posting stuff like Fix the loot till my guild farms it all for every member then nerf it so no one else can get it...but it's not like that..it needs to be a perm. fix</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Yes... and when those numbers get to be more, they won't have so many people in the mid levels...  I definetly agree that once the majority of the player base reaches the end level... it should be fixed.</FONT><BR><BR><BR>Purpose? You last couple lines should sum it up for you..Everyone has thier own purpose in the game..some want to just craft and help their guild..some craft thinking they will be recognized as the best..some roleplay..some play just to enjoy graphics. Some raid to get loot..I'm not saying any are right or wrong but don't say that the last listed isn't a purpose to play the game cause it is, and if for whatever reason you lose that purpose then you don't play anymore...if the game wasn't entertain for you, would you still play? <BR><BR>yes, I'll stand by my 1%, if you want..start a thread ask, how many ppl that are lvl 50 got there by doing a solo play style...you admit later on in your post that it takes time to hit 50 so don't you think soloing would be even slower? it proves that all the hardcore gamers cept may a very very few did the grp style of play for a long time..they did it..you are just not willing to try raiding as another play style.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Who ever said I won't try raiding as a play style?  Not me.</FONT><BR><BR>the non-sense was your posts about pocket change %s and everything else...other posts you write least have some merit one way or another, that was just random non-sense that cause a clinically provem 8 point loss in IQ to everyone that read it.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>That's called sarcasm.... i was making fun of all the numbers you and stylin keep pulling out of your rears.</FONT><BR><BR>Is it end game developement to fix loot tables..developement would be to add zones/content...we're not asking for that.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Well yes, it is.  That loot has to be balanced to fit withing the current game.  If you want the loot to be good I would hope they wold be taking time to make sure it is nice but not broken.  Or would you rather have them give you stuff then nerf it?</FONT><BR><BR>about the 90% of lvl 30 issues are not being address? <BR>1) they aren't game breaking<BR>2) they don't interfere with game progression.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Neither is your substanderd raid loot.... it is not game breaking and it does not interfere with game progression.... in fact it is by definition end game, and can not interfere with progression....</FONT></P> <P><BR>If it were a quest that didn't work I can understand...because you cannot progress past a point..but a class spell not doing what it's described to do doesn't stop anyone from doing a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] thing.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Still you insist that raid loot is more important than class spells working.... how?  Broken class spells have the capacity to affect a player in every point in the game.... while bad raid loot affects a player in one aspect of the game.</FONT><BR></P> <P> <HR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Valhu]

<DIV>Lvl 50's not being welcome on raids or having no use is ongoing now.... look through the class forums.  Where is the challange and fun for a gimped class to stand by watching the others do the work?</DIV>

[Melamp]

<blockquote><hr>Valhuru wrote:<DIV>Lvl 50's not being welcome on raids or having no use is ongoing now.... look through the class forums. Where is the challange and fun for a gimped class to stand by watching the others do the work?</DIV><hr></blockquote>Im sorry, Talk to your guild leader...There's more than one way to skin a cat and so are there more ways to succeed in a raid.SK's have been important to our raids/ have enchanters monks. etc.just because the guild found a good way to kill a mob that didn't really need the help of "X" Class and now whenever they fight the mob they do it without that class isn't because of the game so much as it is the guild strat.I remember as a pally in ToV everytime we did (err can't remmeber dragon) Iky the Venemon I'll call him cause I think that is close I was always chose to go in to his room and Divine aura pull and die close to the monks.I hated that that strat..I always mentioned that clerics had DA...but they didn't want to risk a cleric...SK's had FD and didn't have to die..but no..Poor little Melampus died everytime we did that mob..and Don't think I ever once got to see him killed till i was rezzed after.Now, Some eq1 players may read that and go OMG you could've have use this strat, it worked without DA...so there are many ways to kill a mob it's up to the guild to change strats to accomidate everyone.

[Melamp]

<blockquote><hr>Valhuru wrote:<BR><BR><BR>If you fix things now, when only the power gamers are high enough to see the problem then in months to come others don't have to deal with it.</P><P><FONT color=#ffff00>True, but what about the issues I am seeing now? I should just smile and think about how when I get to lvl 50 the raid loot will be fixed... yay!</FONT></P></blockquote>Maybe you should adapt instead of worrying so much.1% person of the games population has killed every mob/grped with every class/done hundreds of quests/able to kill challenging mobsWithout certain class abilities working properly, if they can do it....

[Valhu]

<DIV>Adapt rather than demand to get what I paid for?  That is not a good idea in my book.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think that we just have to agree to disagree on this one.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regardless of how it may seem, I do support raid loot being better than standard group loot (not by a huge factor but better... if not better items then more master drops or something).... I just really want to see them patch all the holes that is sinking this ship from the balast hold up.... before they fine tune the crow's nest.</DIV>

[Eelyen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Valhuru wrote:<BR> <DIV>Adapt rather than demand to get what I paid for?  That is not a good idea in my book.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think that we just have to agree to disagree on this one.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regardless of how it may seem, I do support raid loot being better than standard group loot (not by a huge factor but better... if not better items then more master drops or something).... I just really want to see them patch all the holes that is sinking this ship from the balast hold up.... before they fine tune the crow's nest.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Doesn't matter if they "patch" holes.</P> <P>With 24 Classes and the Max Raid size being 24, people are always going to be left out.  And they are going to think it's cause their class sucks and will want more and more.</P> <P>It will be like this forever.  Or until they up the raid size <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Melamp]

<blockquote><hr>Valhuru wrote:<DIV>Adapt rather than demand to get what I paid for? That is not a good idea in my book.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I think that we just have to agree to disagree on this one. </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Regardless of how it may seem, I do support raid loot being better than standard group loot (not by a huge factor but better... if not better items then more master drops or something).... I just really want to see them patch all the holes that is sinking this ship from the balast hold up.... before they fine tune the crow's nest.</DIV><hr></blockquote>I agree..the point we disagree on is first...To me loot first..because I'm lvl 50..I'm in a raiding guild that have all quit on gone to WoW (which I tried and dind't like) because of the loot issue. I want it to be fixed so that I can let them know it's asskicking time again.You want things that are important to you fixed first, and rightly so.I would love to see a big patch tomorrow where all the bugs and loot are fix, not just my problem.but on the paid for note:SoE doesn't guarantee that you're get to play the game....at all even if you pay..so them guaranteeing to fix a problem Loot or ability may not even happen..they get our money either way <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Valhu]

<DIV>I did not mean "patch" the holes only to make all classes usefull in raids.... the issues with the various classes go way beyond that.</DIV>

[Styl]

<DIV>Ya, and I would have used a better example then the SK. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Granted some of the taunts need serious help, but we have a lvl 50 SK in our guild, and he is very important to our raids, He tanks the adds while the MT is on the named.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Without the SK, we wouldn't have been able to complete some of the raids we have.  So as far as there skills needing fixed before anything else...i call BS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>He does perfectly fine on our raids, and plays a major role.  And he would rather the loot be there first, then fix his spell line.  Hes been doing fine with it broke all along, but now gets zero reward ( due to crap loot&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> for putting up with it, and finding other ways to make himself useful.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Always 2 sides to every story.  SOE just needs to fix EVERTHING, so then we have nothing to argue about.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But then again, whats easier to ignore?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ONE loud community, standing behind each other to get stuff fixed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Or sitting back and watching them argue with each other, why you go on nurfing horses, unstead of doing more important things.</DIV>

[ProteusTielaxi]

Stylin..Two answers to you...The problem is one that has plagued RPG games from the very begining...called Mudflation.The original MMORPGS, text based MUDs had this problem, EQ1 and just about every game after it has the problem...Basically, once high-end players and guilds start "farming" uber loot from raids, such loot becomes fairly common. Once a critical mass of players or guilds is fully outfitted, content becomes less challenging. So, ever more powerful content has to be introduced.Soon, you get a ridiculous amount of inflation, both in player power/abilities, and mob power/abilities, for high-end encounters.Then the inflation begins to trickle down to lower end encounters. Soon, you get EQ1 style situations where low end players are expected to be twinked with uber gear. To make it challenging, the content needs to be adjusted accordingly....etc..etc. Soon, the game no longer attracts any new players, as low end content has become ridiculously hard.Try doing Velious in original EQ1 gear. You know...the bronze armor we old timers started out with...hehe.For example. Naggy in EQ1 had 32k hp. This was considered a huge, massive amount, and raids of 30+ were very common to try and kill him. After a few years of mudflation, boss mobs in Velious had millions of HP. Gear allowed some players to almost approach naggy/vox in power damage..So yes, new high end gear has to be introduced very slowly. And yes, like life, LUCK plays a large part of it. Like life, sometimes you work your behind off, are clever and good at your job, but for some reason don't become Bill Gates...Working hard and smart, does not guarantee success, it just helps.Which brings up the second point.Why SHOULDN'T casual gamers get a chance at good loot? At having the same amout of fun outfitting their toon? Don't we pay the same amount of money to SOE each month? Should we not get the same enjoyment? after all..this is not a job. THIS IS A GAME. I play for fun, I pay for it. I'm entitled to the same level of enjoyment YOU are. You talk of how "hard" it is to farm raid mobs, at how much "work" it is, coordinating your uber guild for a high-end raid. Sounds like you're not having fun. Why are you paying $14/month and countless hours of your time to "work"?Why should SOE upset 95% of their paying customers by ruining the game balance with mudflation, to satisfy the other 5%? I don't get it.Sony is catering EQ2 to that 95%. Perhaps, a wise business decision would be something like the Legends server. You can pay $40/month, and get all the uber, l33t content, 12 hour raids, and high end items you want. On those servers, I'd expect GMs to take manual control of some uber mobs, making sure the same [Removed for Content] tactics can't be used to farm the same mobs over and over...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />As for me, there is way more content in this game than I can ever hope to finish before I hit 50. When I do get there, I expect I'll use the new mentoring system to explore it all, level some alts..try some crafting..etc. In other words, have FUN. If I get bored with all that, I'll wait for the many expansions to come...

[Melamp]

I really don't see eq1 having that much of a problem with loot as everyone else..I guess it is because I know I would put the work into being able to do the very hardest stuff.I've not played in quite some time...Don't have the Omens expansion...matter of fact, my character is lvl 65 not 70.So I know I can't just go pay my money to reactivate my acct. GO into the highest DoN, or Omens or whatever dungeon and kill the hardest mob in the game...I know this..I expect this.Other ppl do not.I believe they have this. I pay 15$ a month I should be able to kill the mob just the same as any other customer. Or Hey I lvled to 70 i've bought some finesteel armor from the vendor so I should be able to fight the same mobs as other ppl paying the same amount of money I have.I remember posting a couple months ago that I didn't think it was fair that SoE came out with the "Platnium pack" where you got EQ and 7 expansions a month free etc. for 30$, Seeing that in the store [Removed for Content] me off. I paid like 50$ for the game and 30$ for each expansion.Does that Mean I was entitled to anything more because I paid more? the player base told me NO, that the money I spent getting those expansion when they came out was to play thoses expansion when they came out.But on the same point...for 30$ you have access to all the expansions I had and you can play from lvl 1-70 ( a few months, since you can PL in eq1, which is a good thing) and get all the armor at the end of Omens so that you can go into the hard lvls of DoN. But it costs me over 300$ and years of suscriptions any my character is only 65 still.So I really don't want to hear that expansion and uber loot ruined games...It didn't..it's the lack of interests in raiding or going to other zones that made ppl FEEL left out.PPL see a brand new expansion that have lvl appropriate zones and they flock to them...then if they are harder zones they get upset thinking that the only way to be successful in these new zones is to have better gear, yet they don't want to go to old content that they've already paid for to get it.

[Cast]

<FONT color=#cc0066></FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> </P> <P>Melampus wrote:<BR>I really don't see eq1 having that much of a problem with loot as everyone else..I guess it is because I know I would put the work into being able to do the very hardest stuff.<BR><BR>I've not played in quite some time...Don't have the Omens expansion...matter of fact, my character is lvl 65 not 70.<BR>So I know I can't just go pay my money to reactivate my acct. GO into the highest DoN, or Omens or whatever dungeon and kill the hardest mob in the game...<BR><BR>I know this..I expect this.<BR>Other ppl do not.<BR><BR>I believe they have this. I pay 15$ a month I should be able to kill the mob just the same as any other customer. Or Hey I lvled to 70 i've bought some finesteel armor from the vendor so I should be able to fight the same mobs as other ppl paying the same amount of money I have.<BR><BR>I remember posting a couple months ago that I didn't think it was fair that SoE came out with the "Platnium pack" where you got EQ and 7 expansions a month free etc. for 30$, Seeing that in the store [Removed for Content] me off. I paid like 50$ for the game and 30$ for each expansion.<BR><BR>Does that Mean I was entitled to anything more because I paid more? the player base told me NO, that the money I spent getting those expansion when they came out was to play thoses expansion when they came out.<BR><BR>But on the same point...for 30$ you have access to all the expansions I had and you can play from lvl 1-70 ( a few months, since you can PL in eq1, which is a good thing) and get all the armor at the end of Omens so that you can go into the hard lvls of DoN. But it costs me over 300$ and years of suscriptions any my character is only 65 still.<BR><BR>So I really don't want to hear that expansion and uber loot ruined games...It didn't..it's the lack of interests in raiding or going to other zones that made ppl FEEL left out.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>Your on drugs. Games dont die because of uber guilds not wanting to raid anymore. Games fall apart when those some uber guilds are the only ones left because they camp out everything that drops anything worthwhile and everyone else has to settle for 3rd or 4th best. This is why you wont see raid mobs drop what you people want to them to and leave the smaller guilds or groups out in the cold. </FONT></P> <P><BR><BR>PPL see a brand new expansion that have lvl appropriate zones and they flock to them...then if they are harder zones they get upset thinking that the only way to be successful in these new zones is to have better gear, yet they don't want to go to old content that they've already paid for to get it.<BR></P> <P> <HR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Melamp]

<blockquote><hr>Castor wrote:<FONT color=#cc0066>Your on drugs. Games dont die because of uber guilds not wanting to raid anymore. Games fall apart when those some uber guilds are the only ones left because they camp out everything that drops anything worthwhile and everyone else has to settle for 3rd or 4th best. This is why you wont see raid mobs drop what you people want to them to and leave the smaller guilds or groups out in the cold.</blockquote>????So after 5-6 years are the Power gamers/uber raiders the only lvl 65(70) players around..No Now MOST of the population is high lvl in eq1Eq1 falling apart? nah, new expansion, I venture to say it's player base is still way bigger than EQ2 so it can't be JUST the uber guilds still playing, which means that anyone can camp what they want not just X guild of that server, EVERYONE.Smaller guilds in the cold...Legacy was the best/highest raiding guild on neriak and we had around 30..i'm wanting to say 28 ppl.So how smaller of a guild can you get? I've seen guilds in the 400+ member range.The new raiding guild on neriak has 25 members...so please don't say you're guild is too small to do anything...raid size is small in this game. therefore you can raid as much as you want

[Lanomen_Najena]

<DIV>  I agree, the game has become more about trying to make everything "fair" it seems to me than just having fun.  I am only level 30 adventurer, and 30 alchemist, but I was on my way to earning money and getting a horse when the "fix" happened.  I do like the exp increase however.  Hopefully Stylin got someones attention.</DIV>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Melampus wrote:<BR><BR>And as far as wanting to set yourself apart from other players in the game...accomplishments or loot...if you don't feel that then why play an MMORPG <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Quote from <STRONG>Nothing to Loose</STRONG>: (Tim Robbins smiling and shaking his head lightly)"You took the wrong guy on the wrong day"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I play on Lucan, an RPG preferred Server and I played on Vie (amongst others) back in EQL. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont try to set apart myself from other <FONT color=#99ff00>players</FONT>. I try to make my <FONT color=#99ff00>character</FONT> unique. In EQL I wore a helmet with inferior stats from 30-40 just because it didnt show on my toon (no /showhood back then). I dont use abbreviations but I use social macros. I gave my pick-up group members last weekend about 10 tier2 drinks/food instead of summoning stuff  because I want them to remember me as the healer who cared. So much for setting apart.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And the question alone why I play an MMORPG when its not loot I am after shows how narrow minded you are. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I f you are all after setting yourself apart from other players and define your toon only on gear - why not play Diablo on the battlenet?</DIV>

[Big Da]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <P>People choose to raid, people choose to spend all day in a game, nobody makes them do it! EQ1 has for good or bad ended up as a raid focused game. Sony has released a new game to appeal to a larger market. The larger market would imply that they want to get people who chose not to play EQ1 (as well as some of those who did). This larger market will not stay and play a game where the way to get the very best items is the same as a game they chose not to play.</P> <P>The game caters for raids, many people enjoyed this aspect of EQ1, and it wouldn't make sense to leave it out. It would also not make sense to compete with their own product!</P> <P>The game is too young to make raids at the end game a priority. Have patience, raids will get better when the Devs get around to it. Next time you play a game though, try not to do the same thing. Nobody ever said you would get more out of the game for playing for half the day, you will just get what there is, but quicker. There is only so much content in the game and if you get though it all and find the very end lacking, it is to be expected.</P> <P>Please calm down; find something else to do and slow down, it isn’t a race! You need to have better loot that much?</P> <P>Saying I invested all this time I deserve better stuff does not apply. Nobody asked you to do it! You deserve more stuff, playtime = rewards, you all have lots of stuff! Well lots more than the casual player! Now you face the drawback of your play style. You have gotten out of sync with the pace of the game.</P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Melamp]

<blockquote><hr>Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Melampus wrote:<BR><BR>And as far as wanting to set yourself apart from other players in the game...accomplishments or loot...if you don't feel that then why play an MMORPG<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><DIV>Quote from <STRONG>Nothing to Loose</STRONG>: (Tim Robbins smiling and shaking his head lightly)"You took the wrong guy on the wrong day"</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I play on Lucan, an RPG preferred Server and I played on Vie (amongst others) back in EQL. </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I dont try to set apart myself from other <FONT color=#99ff00>players</FONT>. I try to make my <FONT color=#99ff00>character</FONT> unique. In EQL I wore a helmet with inferior stats from 30-40 just because it didnt show on my toon (no /showhood back then). I dont use abbreviations but I use social macros. I gave my pick-up group members last weekend about 10 tier2 drinks/food instead of summoning stuff because I want them to remember me as the healer who cared. So much for setting apart.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>And the question alone why I play an MMORPG when its not loot I am after shows how narrow minded you are. </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I f you are all after setting yourself apart from other players and define your toon only on gear - why not play Diablo on the battlenet?</DIV><hr></blockquote>Because that's the game where you work yourself up to get the gear..not worrying about getting in raids and stuff..Other ppl like having the social interaction of grp accomplishments.I could never play on a RP server...I hate every aspect of it sometimes..I've seen a cool RL friend of my "Hook Up" with a RP person on EQL and get married in game..on raid they would kneel on the ground and do emotes back and forth why everyone was buffing up...made me sick

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Melampus wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Melampus wrote:<BR><BR>And as far as wanting to set yourself apart from other players in the game...accomplishments or loot...if you don't feel that then why play an MMORPG <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Quote from <STRONG>Nothing to Loose</STRONG>: (Tim Robbins smiling and shaking his head lightly)"You took the wrong guy on the wrong day"</DIV> <DIV>I play on Lucan, an RPG preferred Server and I played on Vie (amongst others) back in EQL. </DIV> <DIV>I dont try to set apart myself from other <FONT color=#99ff00>players</FONT>. I try to make my <FONT color=#99ff00>character</FONT> unique. In EQL I wore a helmet with inferior stats from 30-40 just because it didnt show on my toon (no /showhood back then). I dont use abbreviations but I use social macros. I gave my pick-up group members last weekend about 10 tier2 drinks/food instead of summoning stuff because I want them to remember me as the healer who cared. So much for setting apart.</DIV> <DIV>And the question alone why I play an MMORPG when its not loot I am after shows how narrow minded you are. </DIV> <DIV>I f you are all after setting yourself apart from other players and define your toon only on gear - why not play Diablo on the battlenet?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>Because that's the game where you work yourself up to get the gear..not worrying about getting in raids and stuff..<BR><BR>Other ppl like having the social interaction of grp accomplishments.<BR><BR>I could never play on a RP server...I hate every aspect of it sometimes..I've seen a cool RL friend of my "Hook Up" with a RP person on EQL and get married in game..on raid they would kneel on the ground and do emotes back and forth why everyone was buffing up...made me sick<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Great to hear your toons will never cross the path of my charcacters.<BR>

[Melamp]

<blockquote><hr>Big Dave wrote:<BLOCKQUOTE><P>People choose to raid, people choose to spend all day in a game, nobody makes them do it! EQ1 has for good or bad ended up as a raid focused game. Sony has released a new game to appeal to a larger market. The larger market would imply that they want to get people who chose not to play EQ1 (as well as some of those who did). This larger market will not stay and play a game where the way to get the very best items is the same as a game they chose not to play.</P><P>The game caters for raids, many people enjoyed this aspect of EQ1, and it wouldn't make sense to leave it out. It would also not make sense to compete with their own product!</P><P>The game is too young to make raids at the end game a priority. Have patience, raids will get better when the Devs get around to it. Next time you play a game though, try not to do the same thing. Nobody ever said you would get more out of the game for playing for half the day, you will just get what there is, but quicker. There is only so much content in the game and if you get though it all and find the very end lacking, it is to be expected.</P><P>Please calm down; find something else to do and slow down, it isn’t a race! You need to have better loot that much?</P><P>Saying I invested all this time I deserve better stuff does not apply. Nobody asked you to do it! You deserve more stuff, playtime = rewards, you all have lots of stuff! Well lots more than the casual player! Now you face the drawback of your play style. You have gotten out of sync with the pace of the game.</P></BLOCKQUOTE><hr></blockquote>On that note please answer.How many zones are in EQLHow many of those didn't have a "Boss Mob"How many of those did have a "Boss Mob"PoP was great because advancement was done through killing a boss mob...they weren't extremely hard.I know on my server there were a bunch of open raids..and even flagging days where even if you weren't part of the raid you could stand around get in the raid grp and hail the mob...hundreds of ppl got flagged some days.but along with that...the zones were absolutely great...even if you didn't want to kill a boss mob the zone had sooo much to offer instead.So how was it designed to Raiders? because it had a boss mob in it...that could have been killed by non-uber guild players?right now the larger market is below 50...in 6 months the larger market may be about 50...so fix problems now..I just looked and saw the average lvl for all the servers is around 13...why fix the lvl 30 issues so fast if the "avereage" player is 20 lvls away.fix things now is all..don't wait till the majority of players say what in when to fix things..reminds me of a lynch mob coming..w/ pitch forks and torches...Hey they're now passing town square there coming this away..should it be the masses that control this game? the ones that are saying DON"T fix this..instead FIX this.vs.the others that are just saying Fix This...and not threatening to quit if you fix something else first?

[Namil]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Melampus wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Big Dave wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>People choose to raid, people choose to spend all day in a game, nobody makes them do it! EQ1 has for good or bad ended up as a raid focused game. Sony has released a new game to appeal to a larger market. The larger market would imply that they want to get people who chose not to play EQ1 (as well as some of those who did). This larger market will not stay and play a game where the way to get the very best items is the same as a game they chose not to play.</P> <P>The game caters for raids, many people enjoyed this aspect of EQ1, and it wouldn't make sense to leave it out. It would also not make sense to compete with their own product!</P> <P>The game is too young to make raids at the end game a priority. Have patience, raids will get better when the Devs get around to it. Next time you play a game though, try not to do the same thing. Nobody ever said you would get more out of the game for playing for half the day, you will just get what there is, but quicker. There is only so much content in the game and if you get though it all and find the very end lacking, it is to be expected.</P> <P>Please calm down; find something else to do and slow down, it isn’t a race! You need to have better loot that much?</P> <P>Saying I invested all this time I deserve better stuff does not apply. Nobody asked you to do it! You deserve more stuff, playtime = rewards, you all have lots of stuff! Well lots more than the casual player! Now you face the drawback of your play style. You have gotten out of sync with the pace of the game.</P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>On that note please answer.<BR><BR>How many zones are in EQL<BR>How many of those didn't have a "Boss Mob"<BR>How many of those did have a "Boss Mob"<BR><BR>PoP was great because advancement was done through killing a boss mob...they weren't extremely hard.<BR>I know on my server there were a bunch of open raids..and even flagging days where even if you weren't part of the raid you could stand around get in the raid grp and hail the mob...hundreds of ppl got flagged some days.<BR><BR>but along with that...the zones were absolutely great...even if you didn't want to kill a boss mob the zone had sooo much to offer instead.<BR><BR>So how was it designed to Raiders? because it had a boss mob in it...that could have been killed by non-uber guild players?<BR><BR><BR>right now the larger market is below 50...in 6 months the larger market may be about 50...so fix problems now..I just looked and saw the average lvl for all the servers is around 13...why fix the lvl 30 issues so fast if the "avereage" player is 20 lvls away.<BR><BR>fix things now is all..don't wait till the majority of players say what in when to fix things..reminds me of a lynch mob coming..w/ pitch forks and torches...Hey they're now passing town square there coming this away..should it be the masses that control this game? the ones that are saying DON"T fix this..instead FIX this.<BR><BR>vs.<BR>the others that are just saying Fix This...and not threatening to quit if you fix something else first?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Most people have alts and having an alt is much different then already having your main at 50. I can guarantee that if you could only look at peoples main characters the average is a hell of alot higher then 13. Example, My guild has 84 people in it. Most of which are alts, the average level of the guild is 18. But if you look at the average level of all our main characters the average level is 34. So think about all the alts in this game and realize that these alts were created for multiple reasons but in now way show the true average level of the Main toons in the game. 

[Melamp]

yah, that's a given..i have a lvl 8 and lvl 14 alts.....that brings my avereage to 24..but I only claim my lvl 50

[Big Da]

You have Nek Castle now!

[Ay]

<P>I'm sure i'll get flamed for this but i have to disagree with the OP. EQ2 has advertised from the start that it wasnt going to be like EQ1. Not everyone wants to be a part of a 200 person raid guild. Not everyone wants to be ultra gimped if they cant raid with 200 other people on a nightly basis. They said from the start that the game would be much more casual gamer friendly.  They designed guild leveling so that a small guild can gain levels as fast as a large one. They designed many things like this. If they go to an all out RAID FEST here on EQ2 i'm guessing they'll lose tons of casual players who honestly just dont want to be a part of the grinding you love so much.</P> <P>EQ2 was designed to be an experience, not a f'n GRIND. I hate games that are grinding, and from what i hear it sounds like many of you who are level 50 now just blindly grinded your way to level 50! Well, that was a pretty dumb thing to do considering they put in all this massive content from level 1-50. The detail in the game is seriously amazing. I know you wouldnt know that becuase you just sat there camping the same mobs grinding out your levels. But i'm level 40 and I havent felt like i've been grinding a single time yet. The perfect sort of zone IMHO is Nektroplos Castle. It's exactly what EQ2 promised. A Non-raid challenging zone with sweet detail and a good time for a group of friends. </P> <P>EQ1 still exists, and it is the ultra raid game you're looking for most likely. They continue to come out with expansions too. They have pretty good graphics these days as well. If non-stop raiding is what you're looking for please go there. I really hope the people who had no clue about what EQ2 was supposed to be about dont WHINE this game into a Raid-based game.</P> <P> </P>

[Wisma]

<P>I have a few ideas....</P> <P>1)  Start a new character.<BR>2)  Tradeskill.<BR>3)  Mentor.<BR>4)  Explore.</P> <P>Just a few ideas to help keep the game interesting. Maybe this will give you something to do till more high-end content arrives. :smileyhappy:</P>

[YulDi]

<P>I will agree with the OP that raid boss mobs should drop better than a plain wooden chest.</P> <P> </P> <P>That said, I disagree with what most of the raiders are posting here. Just because you do not raid does not mean you are not lvl 50 or don't deserve gear as good as that obtained in a raid .Some people do not enjoy raiding. I am one of them. I played EQ from 99 until just after PoP came out. I was in many many raids. I find raids boring except for a very few people in the raid. Most of the time you sit around waiting for the raid to get together/organised the rest is waiting for instructions on how to kill the next mob. After that,you do as instructed and bingo,win or wipe. Then, rinse and repeat.</P> <P> In most raids if you are not the MT,OffTanker, main debuffer,raid leader or healer, you were just another body. Your only contribution was to nuke when told or melee at the right angle/range. That means like 10 -12 people max on a raid actually have rreal contributions,the rest are just bodies adding dps. I quit EQ over the end game being raid centric.I don't want to see EQ2 go this direction.</P> <P>I play this game to have fun. If i don't have fun raiding, then I should not be penalized for it. If you do enjoy raiding ,there is no reason you should be rewarded for it either. </P> <P> </P>

[Haka]

I'm glad I stumbled across this thread while working...pretty entertaining.  Im only in my 30's and having a good time with the game but I want everyone to enjoy it including people that are at 50 already.  The "powergamers" should be rewarded for their commitment but at the same time the casual must feel like they have a legitimate shot at decent to high end loot and reward, since I think that the original intent of the game was to relieve some of the time commitment that was required in EQL.  Stylin...dude seriously...If you are playing 12 hours a day / 80 hours a week as you suggested....you are in need of help man...think of that number..80 hours a week.  That can't be healthy. <div></div>

[ladeni]

I think many of you are missing the point of this thread.  Most of you are being completely selfish in your statements, because raid targets may not be what you are looking for...or you could care less about 50+ content.  Well I hate to burst your bubble...but high end game is what keeps the majority of players playing for long periods of time.  Players that raid SHOULD get better gear than people that don't.  That is a fact, like or not.  I am sure that SOE will bring some more raid targets, and some more high end content, but for now there needs to be more.  Not everyone likes to tradeskill.  Not everyone likes to put crap in their houses....and as I am one of these people, I care more about the high end content of the game than any other aspect about it.  Completely agree with the OP, GREAT POST, and definitely get it together dev's.... flame me if you want <div></div>

[Ay]

<P>Iadenian.. umm.. from what you just wrote it sounds like you're being just as selfish about your opinions as we are supposedly being selfish about our opinions.</P> <P>You think uber-raids shoudl give best loot and be required for the best gear.</P> <P>Many of us dont think that way.</P> <P>What was promised? What was promised was a  game that wasnt like EQ1's insane raid requirements. This is why i brought it up. This is why I came to EQ2. If you ultra-uber-level-grinding-guru's had did a little research on EQ2 before you came here you'd know that the game wasnt designed to be just like EQ1 in many ways, including that. Once again, let me be more clear, EQ2 was not designed to be a RAID DEPENDENT GAME. Why in the hell are you generalizing it to be like that and saying it's a requirement? It's not- and there's no MMO rule saying that it has to be like that.</P> <P>Maybe next time, grab a few cool people and enjoy the leveling. Actually get a whiff of all the content that is between level 1-50.</P>

[MrFlob]

<DIV> <DIV>IF YOU EVER get the chance at a go at drath you will understand what i'm talking about. ( BTW this is the hardest mob in game, it took about a month long quest to even get to him, and we killed him twice and he dropped a WOOD chest both times )</DIV> <DIV> Now remember back when I said I saw a MASTER chest drop off a regular nightblood group mob in RV.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cant remember who in this thread said this but wanted to ask, Do you have any idea how many nightbloods they had killed/ How long they had hunted? Or their previous loot had they got Master chest drop every nightblood ,think i not...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then lets go to raiding been there done that its fun the first few times when you kill a mob... but after awhile mob turns trivial ..you use the same strategy.. same attacks ..it uses lh on same moment ...look out aoe in 5sec.... So thats prolly the reason for trivial loot too .... </DIV> <DIV>You really cant expect mob to drop staff of god wrath with 10k proc everytime ... even if its epic l500 ^^^^^^  because your just farming the mob using same strat... Trivial loot for epic mobs is eq2 solution for uber gear farmers.. yes kills your enthusiasm when epic drops l40 rusty sword but hey atleast it stops farming =) </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Risk (trivial ,as 50 no debt, you know mobs every trick, you got strategy) = Reward(trivial sometimes master chest) </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV>

[Dub]

<DIV>  EQ2 needs to defenately increase the power and usefulness of dropped raid loot.  It has nothing else to offer at the high end. Whats the point?  No pvp, nothing. Hell atleast WoW has something to do at the high end (pvp) Maybe that is why they are outselling EQ2 and named mmorpg of the year on xplay. Popular video game show.  The only thing left at the high end in EQ2 to try for is uber rare loot and have something very cool. Nobody wants to get to lvl 50 to buy some crappy crafted garbage that any joe schmoo can purchase. There is no fun in that.  </DIV>

[Drael]

<P>I think SOE has really painted themselves in a corner on this one.<SPAN>  </SPAN>You can give the impression that everyone is going to have a shot at the best equipment but then you can’t turn around and design the game with content in mind for a 24-person raid.</P> <P>Hardest content = best rewards.<SPAN>  </SPAN>That’s the way it has to be, no way to get around it.<SPAN>  </SPAN>If you gave the best rewards for doing anything less than the toughest encounters then the incentive to take the risk is gone.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Sure, some people will do it once just to say they did it, but it would basically become unused content and a waste of resources.</P> <P>As it stands, the toughest encounters have to be tuned to challenge a well-equipped, well-coordinated raid of 24 people.<SPAN>  </SPAN>These are the limits they set in their initial design and if you make the toughest encounters doable by anything less, the game becomes too easy and people move on that much quicker.<SPAN>  </SPAN>As you can see, your average pick-up group is not going to even come close to this and this is where SOE erred in their statement or erred in the game design, depending on how you look at it.</P> <P>Trying to completely satisfy two opposing play styles in the same game is not going to happen.<SPAN>  </SPAN>So, You please one side or the other or you cut it down the middle and leave both sides unhappy.</P> <P>I think everyone would agree that you should get the best rewards for the biggest risks.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Again, the problem is that they gave the impression that the high-risk part of the game was going to be suited towards the casual player and then designed it to allow 24-person raids.<SPAN>  </SPAN>While this is less than eq1, it is still an order of magnitude above a casual pick-up group.</P>

[Big Da]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Draelan wrote:<BR> <P>I think SOE has really painted themselves in a corner on this one.<SPAN>  </SPAN>You can give the impression that everyone is going to have a shot at the best equipment but then you can’t turn around and design the game with content in mind for a 24-person raid.</P> <P>Hardest content = best rewards.<SPAN>  </SPAN>That’s the way it has to be, no way to get around it.<SPAN>  </SPAN>If you gave the best rewards for doing anything less than the toughest encounters then the incentive to take the risk is gone.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Sure, some people will do it once just to say they did it, but it would basically become unused content and a waste of resources.</P> <P>As it stands, the toughest encounters have to be tuned to challenge a well-equipped, well-coordinated raid of 24 people.<SPAN>  </SPAN>These are the limits they set in their initial design and if you make the toughest encounters doable by anything less, the game becomes too easy and people move on that much quicker.<SPAN>  </SPAN>As you can see, your average pick-up group is not going to even come close to this and this is where SOE erred in their statement or erred in the game design, depending on how you look at it.</P> <P>Trying to completely satisfy two opposing play styles in the same game is not going to happen.<SPAN>  </SPAN>So, You please one side or the other or you cut it down the middle and leave both sides unhappy.</P> <P>I think everyone would agree that you should get the best rewards for the biggest risks.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Again, the problem is that they gave the impression that the high-risk part of the game was going to be suited towards the casual player and then designed it to allow 24-person raids.<SPAN>  </SPAN>While this is less than eq1, it is still an order of magnitude above a casual pick-up group.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>All the issues in this post have be disputed well over 20 times in this thread. The points seemed to be that raids were put in this game because people enjoy them. The problem is once you learn how to beat a raid then the risk is not very high at all. If then each raid gave you great loot, it would become even easier. What do you need this new loot for if you can already beat the toughest mobs in the game?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This game as said before is marketed at a larger market then EQ1, they still market EQ1! They are not trying to directly compete with their own product. The larger market would imply that they wanted to add players who chose no to play EQ1 to their playerbase for EQ2. They would also not want all their EQ1 players to abandon the game and all move to EQ2.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EQ1 has a lot of raid content, the game styles of EQ1 did not attract this larger market, it would be pointless to make them a main priority in EQ2.</DIV> <DIV><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN>Raids are optional, but if that is where the best loot is it would force those who want the best loot to play them, after a while this would grow tedious and they new player base would leave.</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN>I dont see any way to reward raid / power players and keep the new customer base. Which is a real shame.</SPAN></DIV>

[Drael]

<P><SPAN>---------------------------------------------------------</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Big Dave wrote:</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>All the issues in this post have be disputed well over 20 times in this thread. The points seemed to be that raids were put in this game because people enjoy them. The problem is once you learn how to beat a raid then the risk is not very high at all. If then each raid gave you great loot, it would become even easier. What do you need this new loot for if you can already beat the toughest mobs in the game?</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>This game as said before is marketed at a larger market then EQ1, they still market EQ1! They are not trying to directly compete with their own product. The larger market would imply that they wanted to add players who chose no to play EQ1 to their playerbase for EQ2. They would also not want all their EQ1 players to abandon the game and all move to EQ2.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>EQ1 has a lot of raid content, the game styles of EQ1 did not attract this larger market, it would be pointless to make them a main priority in EQ2.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Raids are optional, but if that is where the best loot is it would force those who want the best loot to play them, after a while this would grow tedious and they new player base would leave.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>I dont see any way to reward raid / power players and keep the new customer base. Which is a real shame.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>----------------------------------------------------------</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>People do enjoy raids but I don’t think a lot enjoy them necessarily in their current state.<SPAN>   </SPAN>Like you said in other posts, the content should get better with time.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I think they would have been better served to have a limit of 2x mobs instead of 4x.<SPAN>  </SPAN>This would put the toughest encounters a lot closer to the casual player range and make it easier to develop the content.<SPAN>  </SPAN>The fact that there is very little risk after you have figured a mob out is one of my biggest problems with the game (i.e. there are no close fights).<SPAN>  </SPAN>You either wipe or everyone lives.<SPAN>  </SPAN>At level 50,<SPAN>  </SPAN>I can count the close encounters with a single digit.<SPAN>  </SPAN>But, this goes for everything and not just raid mobs.<SPAN>   </SPAN>I don’t have a clue on how to address that.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>I agree that they are trying to stay away from EQ1 in some respects but I’m not sure they know what their market is exactly, other than not being geared towards the very high-end raid.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I think the success of that <EM>other game</EM> has them reeling and wondering what went wrong.<SPAN>  </SPAN>They seem to be taking stabs at certain aspects of the game to try and attract players but at the expense of keeping the ones they have.<SPAN>  </SPAN>This is not a huge problem at the moment considering the majority of the player base is not at 50.<SPAN>  </SPAN>However, this problem is going to explode.<SPAN>  </SPAN>There are over 1100 players that are 40+ on my server alone.<SPAN>  </SPAN>If they don’t do something soon about the high end game then the amount of new players entering could be less than the ones leaving.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Not a good thing.<SPAN>  </SPAN></SPAN></P>

[Ay]

<P>I am not sure of EQ2's plans for the future. But here's what i've seen. I don't know about you guys but when you take the time to actually form a balanced group the XP just flows in. I keep remembering that i thought I heard that EQ2 was designed to go up to 200 levels or something like that(in future expansions). Well with the way the levels are coming in, i can see how that's very possible. If there are going to be 100 or 200 levels the first 50 shouldnt be so hard to get in the long-term view of things. Even now at level 42 the xp flows in, when you take the time to form groups correctly.</P> <P>I am guessing that the first real expansion will be another 50 or 25 block of content and levels stacked onto what we have. The messed up(in a good way)  part is that i still havent felt any grind. And even more messed up is that there are whole zones and regions(content) I havent even visited. There have been an insane amount of quests i've bypassed, etc. If there is a lack of content after 50 it coudl be because that next stack of 50 levels or so will fit easier without there being some crazy planes of power raid zones in the middle. </P> <P>If you're upset because the highest raid mob in game drops some wooden box, well that is probably justifiable. I doubt he drops the same thing every time though. </P> <P>Big Dave is correct about SOE's EQ2 big-plan. Much of what they promised seems very contradictory. But I do think there are things they can do to stay with their original plan of being casual player friendly, and not hardcore-raid dependent.</P> <P>**Make the best gear availble in many ways.. but hardcore raids might have a higher success of getting them per drop. So lets say the best Sword for a ShadowKnight is called the Godsmacker 2000. A crafter can make the Godsmacker 2000 with an (ultra rare) harvest. A single group can get the Godsmacker 2000 by doing a group raid into some very challenging zone and the boss mob has a (rare) chance of dropping it. A mid-level raid group(2 groups) can raid a zone and have a (semi-rare) chance to get it off the boss mob. And then a full 4 group raid in a very challenging zone can also get the Godsmacker 2000 by killing the boss mob for a (decent) chance the Godsmacker will drop.<BR></P>

[Styl]

<DIV>Sorry but when you kill the CL epic mob who is 50+^^^ group 4.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And he drops a wooden chest.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You open it and get 2 adept 1's and a T5 rare pelt, there is something seriously wrong.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[EvilIguana9]

I am not a harcore raider, but I would have to agree with some of the OPs argument insofar as killing a really hard mob that takes a ton of coordination and effort... and getting absolutely NOTHING useful..... is not fun.  I am a strong beleiver in there being rewards for such things.  Granted the same thing can happen during casual grouping.  Fight a really hard named boss and then get no chest, or a chest with total crap in it.  It's not fun for us either.  Given the diffuculty, powerful raid endbosses should always drop a chest that always has good loot in it, for at least several people on the raid.  I'd consider tying the fights into quests so that everyone gets at least something for their effort.  Granted raiders shouldn't be seeing massive volumes of drops so that they can gear up better, faster, than casuals, but they shouldn't be as bored off their butts as casuals were in raid-centric EQ 1.  <font size="4">A sense of real progress is what players in general want.  You don't need to have gear with twice the AC and 5 times the hps of single groupable rewards dropping off of dragons, you just need to have something that is at least tangibly better to make people WANT to do the content.</font> <div></div>

[ladeni]

<span><blockquote><hr>Ayun wrote:<div></div> <p>Iadenian.. umm.. from what you just wrote it sounds like you're being just as selfish about your opinions as we are supposedly being selfish about our opinions.</p> <p>You think uber-raids shoudl give best loot and be required for the best gear.</p> <p>Many of us dont think that way.</p> <p>What was promised? What was promised was a  game that wasnt like EQ1's insane raid requirements. This is why i brought it up. This is why I came to EQ2. If you ultra-uber-level-grinding-guru's had did a little research on EQ2 before you came here you'd know that the game wasnt designed to be just like EQ1 in many ways, including that. Once again, let me be more clear, EQ2 was not designed to be a RAID DEPENDENT GAME. Why in the hell are you generalizing it to be like that and saying it's a requirement? It's not- and there's no MMO rule saying that it has to be like that.</p> <p>Maybe next time, grab a few cool people and enjoy the leveling. Actually get a whiff of all the content that is between level 1-50.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Im just going to quote this for stereotype reasons.  The facts are that if you put in the time and effort to raid a target, you should receive better loot than your average joe schmo that puts together a group.   That is fact, not opinion.  also I've made a lot of friends through 50...and that really has nothign to do with me wanting to raid more than anything else in this game.  If dev's think they can give the same reward via raid or group......then they have some serious problems.</span><div></div>

[Ay]

<DIV>You just said the FACTS are you SHOULD blah blah.. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What you basically said was the FACTS are MY SUBJECTIVE OPINION ON HOW SOE SHOULD RUN THE GAME.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Facts can't be opinions. Fact is only a fact if there are no alternatives and therefore there would not even be any room to talk of opinions. Facts are facts, not how we believe something should be. I know you believe very strongly in your opinion, but it doesnt make it a fact that that's how things have to be in MMO's.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not usually one to pick at words but you're just dead wrong here. Not to mention that the effort to put together a raid for an uber mob does not necessarily outdo the effort someone does to put together a group to raid a group mob in a group dungeon. What is hard about a 200 person guild getting together 24 people every night to raid some dork boss? Raids are just like every other encounter, once you figure out how to do it it's not real work. All EQ2 does is give peopel who don't want to be in a guild like that an option to have fun too.</DIV>

[Styl]

<P>Well our guild has 44 total members, and we have stuck to having around mid 40ish members.  We are the top raiding guild on our server.</P> <P>And let me tell you it is difficult to get 24 people on to do a level 50 raid.  We don't want to be a 200 person zerg guild that has to pick and choose who can attend a raid and who can't.  What we do want, is a small guild with high level players with skill.  We want raid content to be based on 24 people, and the content to be a challenge for those people.  And we want the loot to match the challlenge.</P> <P>You have no right saying that all lvl 50 raid guilds are 200 people, who can just slap together 24 of the best people and raid it.  As far as once the strat is figured out its easy, you are dead wrong once again.</P> <P>I can't count how many times we have done all the lvl 50 epic raid encounters, and I can't count how many times we have had something not go as planned and a wipe occured.</P> <P>After reading your post, and the things you state, your opinion has no credit with me, as I can tell by your remarks that you have not been in any situations involving a high end raid guild, so how can your opinion have any merit?</P>

[Neofa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> stoutbrewdrinker wrote:<BR> <DIV>Kedrin Stoutbrew here, Leader of Halcyon Affinity on Antonia Bayle. 100% agree here</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>we are basically the only high end guild on server adn still have problems keeping members because they are displeased with the game. Its tough cause i agree that eq2 needs some major help on the high end. We need something to do besides raiding as well... bring back AA for all i care. We cant raid at all times but we can AA all day any time of the day</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>yes 100%, high end is borked and players are leaving cause of it. these are long term loyal people, but there is a limit to what some people can take and they reach it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Other servers high end guilds report in, its the truth.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yes, Bring back AA's.. And the sooner you do it, the more subscribers you will save.  It's easy, it works, so why not?</P> <P> </P>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Neofate wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> stoutbrewdrinker wrote:<BR> <DIV>Kedrin Stoutbrew here, Leader of Halcyon Affinity on Antonia Bayle. 100% agree here</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>we are basically the only high end guild on server adn still have problems keeping members because they are displeased with the game. Its tough cause i agree that eq2 needs some major help on the high end. We need something to do besides raiding as well... bring back AA for all i care. We cant raid at all times but we can AA all day any time of the day</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>yes 100%, high end is borked and players are leaving cause of it. these are long term loyal people, but there is a limit to what some people can take and they reach it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Other servers high end guilds report in, its the truth.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yes, Bring back AA's.. And the sooner you do it, the more subscribers you will save.  It's easy, it works, so why not?</P> <P><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yeah, the best would be to bring back EQL to make some 10.000 subcribers happy,  the rest will find a home at Blizzards :smileyvery-happy:<BR>

[Lauraliane]

<DIV>bugged msg</DIV><p>Message Edited by Lauraliane on <span class=date_text>03-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:00 AM</span>

[Lauraliane]

<DIV>bugged msg</DIV><p>Message Edited by Lauraliane on <span class=date_text>03-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:00 AM</span>

[Lauraliane]

<DIV>seriously...stop it with the "omg don't make it like EQL" attitude. Not everything in EQL was bad, in fact a lot of things were really good, and AA were one of them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) it keeps people busy</DIV> <DIV>2) it gives a way for you to somewhat specialize  your character</DIV> <DIV>3) it allow you to do something with your uber stuff you looted on the dragon the day before, cause yes it feels good to go back xping with nice gear and feel like your character is indeed more powerful.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the equation is easy anyway : </DIV> <DIV>Will some people leave if they implement AA ? probably not or they are pretty dumb.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Will some people stay or come back to play if they implement AA ? Hell yes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>end of discussion.</DIV>

[MrFlob]

<P>Sad to say this but im pretty sure the raid loot is gonna be the way it is and here is why, if they would drop 10k proc staff everytime you kill it... </P> <P>Farmers and uber guilds farming nonstop all the epic mobs....</P> <P>Auction flooding with ubah items messing markets....</P> <DIV>and so on.... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but if you still dont get it think it this way ...  You got those lil named mobs here and there with ubah loot , now what prevents l50 from farming all of them  ... yes they turn to grey and stop dropping loot. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>sooo the point is as we cant grey out a dragon or someother epic mob .... lets change the plan, as ppl always are going to farm and farm ubah mobs lets make it a challenge ...only every 10:th VoV drops a 10k proc staff....  so its     </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Risk (we can overwrite risk really after 20x VoV where is the risk...ps. for devs reading this better AI for ubah mobs tnx) </DIV> <DIV>so the new formula is:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Amount of farming ( 206 VoV going...) = Reward (yay my 10k proc staff)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and for AA:s other cm systems they will prolly bring them up in next buyable expansion ..atleast i would do it that way... because they know that all who retire now will keep their chcters alive until expansion comes and are first on line to buy it.... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For all of us i hope im wrong.... otherwise we all better start searching for farming gear... :smileywink:</DIV>

[Dub]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MrFlob wrote:<BR> <P>Sad to say this but im pretty sure the raid loot is gonna be the way it is and here is why, if they would drop 10k proc staff everytime you kill it... </P> <P>Farmers and uber guilds farming nonstop all the epic mobs....</P> <P>Auction flooding with ubah items messing markets....</P> <DIV>and so on.... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but if you still dont get it think it this way ...  You got those lil named mobs here and there with ubah loot , now what prevents l50 from farming all of them  ... yes they turn to grey and stop dropping loot. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>sooo the point is as we cant grey out a dragon or someother epic mob .... lets change the plan, as ppl always are going to farm and farm ubah mobs lets make it a challenge ...only every 10:th VoV drops a 10k proc staff....  so its     </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Risk (we can overwrite risk really after 20x VoV where is the risk...ps. for devs reading this better AI for ubah mobs tnx) </DIV> <DIV>so the new formula is:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Amount of farming ( 206 VoV going...) = Reward (yay my 10k proc staff)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and for AA:s other cm systems they will prolly bring them up in next buyable expansion ..atleast i would do it that way... because they know that all who retire now will keep their chcters alive until expansion comes and are first on line to buy it.... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For all of us i hope im wrong.... otherwise we all better start searching for farming gear... :smileywink:</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Thats why you make uber raid drop NO TRADE.  Wow I just solved the problem of farming and flooding the market with uber raid gear. That was easy. 

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lauraliane wrote:<BR> <DIV>Will some people leave if they implement AA ? probably not or they are pretty dumb.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>coming from someone who needs 3 tries to post something</DIV>

[Big Da]

A good idea, but this would introduce its own set of problems.

[MrFlob]

<DIV> <DIV>Thats why you make uber raid drop NO TRADE.  Wow I just solved the problem of farming and flooding the market with uber raid gear. That was easy.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No not really ..... what if some light uber armor would drop perfect for druid and you dont have any druids on raid....</DIV> <DIV>and what about Master spells....... yes lets make all loot No trade... lol </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And how does your plan stop farming......  so what if loots are no trade...  ppl would farm even more , because tank Bob won the uber druid armor when no druids where there and no every single druid would be on raid...</DIV></DIV>

[Zerofault]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lauraliane wrote:<BR> <DIV>Will some people leave if they implement AA ? probably not or they are pretty dumb.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>coming from someone who needs 3 tries to post something</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>Coming from someone who thinks degrading someone for such an assanine reason as accidently posting 3 times.. way to go *$%#&!!  AA's are going to be implemented... Too much talk astir already for them to be ignored...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lodoz</DIV>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zerofault wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lauraliane wrote:<BR> <DIV>Will some people leave if they implement AA ? probably not or they are pretty dumb.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>coming from someone who needs 3 tries to post something</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>Coming from someone who thinks degrading someone for such an assanine reason as accidently posting 3 times.. way to go *$%#&!!  AA's are going to be implemented... Too much talk astir already for them to be ignored...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lodoz</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>needing 3 tries to call those who have a different opinion dumb BEGS for a remark like mine.</P> <P>regardings AAs....EQL is still online - what are you waiting for?</P>

[GregJZ]

<DIV>I really dont understand this whole bickering between the casual gamer and hardcore gamer. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im sorry but no offense to the hardcore gamer, but do something else with your time.  Dont buy a game and sit in your room and play for hours on end.  It doesnt do good for mind, body, or soul.  Seriously.!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now I have played 4 MMORPG's.  Right now I have a lvl 25 wizard and lvl 11 warrior.  And I have played for a month.  first 10 lvls are nothing.  got to it in a day.   Oh and I have only 60 quests done.  I have around 8 days played on my wizard.  Thats about 6 hours per day. (guessing)  that is still ALOT of time to be playing per day.  I guess when i am on I am always doing something that wont get me xp.  I helped a lvl 11 sorcerer the other day showing him around and helping him out.  Nothing we killed gave me experiance even when i was mentored.  I helped him with quests and talked about the game and so forth.  At the end he wouldnt stop thanking me, telling me i made the game so much more enjoyable and he wished there were more people like that in the game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now from my personal experiance and my gf's.  People on the game tend to only do things for themselves and are *$%#&! holes. It seems ALL of the time.  not everyone. but a vast majority.  I know all of you have a good side.  So show it, take your lvl 50 and go mentor people and teach them the game. so that when they get to your level or close they can be more of a help.  Help others enjoy the game also.  Even if you have done it before.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You guys talk about accomplishment by killing X mob or getting Y quest done.  IMO I feel more of an accomplishment by helping someone better understand the game and make their time online is more enjoyable. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Try going to a newb zone and asking if anyone needs help in quests or so forth and mentor them,  MENTOR is the key word.  People have mentor's in real life so try to be one in game.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I guess my point is that there is plenty to do in the game.  The goal is not always to finish first but to get the most enjoyment possible out of the game.  Once you feel like your not having fun then cancel your account and move on.  No point in complaining.  Or wait for new content to be added so you can play.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just my 2 cents. </DIV>

[StoneyPen]

<span><blockquote><hr>Big Dave wrote:<div>The problem with rushing to the limits of a game is just that .... It is the limit ... for now, this is where it stops! If Sony put in more content for the people who rushed to the end, they will only finish that and then ask for more! The pace of this game, for good or bad, is being set by the casual gamers. They are not yet at level 50. In a few months when the casual gamers are in their 40s and 50 there will be content, but for now maybe another game for a while until there is.</div><hr></blockquote>Amen.  It's so simple, yet so many still don't get it.</span><div></div>

[minem]

<P>I love this game been playing since launch, i would greatly appreciate a bigger challenge or tougher/smarter mobs....</P> <P>But PLEASE no huge amount of time sinks....</P> <P>We need a skill based game not a time investment novel like eq1 is....  let me be the difference between a good player or bad player.</P> <P>The fact that high end raiding guild require people to have an extensive amount of time to play is proof enough, what makes someone with 60 days played and better gear more valuable to have then a player who knows how to play its class to the fullest. </P> <P>One day mmog will all include a real time combat system, where my skill as a player will make a difference not the time i have or will invest in the game. I can Hope.......</P> <P>Combat system like God of war in a massive online game, now its about skills.</P> <P> </P>

[PallorTheSilent]

<DIV>Making sure this post doesn't get derailed.</DIV> <DIV>The original poster was right on the mark, when it comes to the high end raid content.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just one thing to add....</DIV> <DIV>Why is it when there is high end content that a guild gets to, and becomes successful at, the content is removed or changed!?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Angler in CoD was a nice thing to do when all other raid targets were not up or already killed by other guilds.</DIV> <DIV>The event took a few times to get down pat, and could still go bad if things weren't done just right.</DIV> <DIV>The problem is guilds got good at killing him, and SoE didn't like their raid mobs being killed on a regular basis.</DIV> <DIV>So the Angler was sent on a vacation (removed from game), until he could be buffed to where he would either be unbeatable or cause a lot more money to be sunk by armor repairs. ( a whole other issue for a different thread )</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They already did this with the King in the commonlands instance.</DIV> <DIV>The king was a level 54 mob who is either a Paladin or a SK with 4 friends, mass HPs, and hits in the 2 to 4K range.</DIV> <DIV>Guilds got good at killing him when the Angler was removed, so guess what happened...... The king gained a new ability</DIV> <DIV>Yes, that is right, SoE changed the encounter to where every 60 to 90 seconds 3 level 52+^^ group x 4 healers spawn and auto aggro. </DIV> <DIV>They run straight for the king and try to heal him. The last time my guild tried him we failed and had 39 adds in the zone.</DIV> <DIV>When a mob has mass adds spawn during a fight that is what they call a new ability. :smileymad:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Reminds me of the Avatar of War back in EQ1. </DIV> <DIV>Guilds killed it a few times, and SoE didn't like their pet mob of the time getting killed.</DIV> <DIV>So they nerfed charm and changed the entire zone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[antigravi]

<P>     Stylin, you could not  have said it any better, we are losing members on nagena aswell. The lvl 50 game is just a waste of time, nothing to do and i mean nothing after prismatic/ drakota kill. the fun of eq2 is over at lvl 50 for all those who dont know.</P> <P>     Sony and others seem to have adopted the mindset of screw them for all the money you can, they forgot what people like in mmolrpgs. loot, aa's, gear, challenge. eq2 is just a very stripped down eqlive and people are now taking notice.. example's.. no loot, atune everything, no aa's no duel/pvp but we do get lvl 54+mobs dropping the same spells that lvl 40+ one group mobs drop, we get to wear the exact same gear as everyother toon our class, we get to do mindless tradeskilling, we get to do quest after quest for noobish items. What happen to the good old days of cool super rare loot drops and powerlvling other alts when bored? If Vanguard was out right now EQ2 would be a ghost town...... Becareful sony you are about to fall on your own sword!!!!</P> <P>antigravity</P><p>Message Edited by antigravity on <span class=date_text>04-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:51 AM</span>

[antigravi]

I've noticed that also pallor, sony either makes epic mobs  buggy or takes them out fast and returns them with super strength when guilds are able to beat them, same thing just happened to darathar..We are getting played like fools all of us. I for one am very sick of it. These guys want to stop people from  making outside money and thats fine but they have killed the game in doing so and we still have bot teams LOL.

[Thargoid]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Thespar wrote:</P> <DIV>Honestly, what game is released from day one with tons and tons of end-game raid content?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Dark Ages of Camelot had about 6 years worth of pvp and realm point advancement to look foward to from day 1<BR></DIV>

[Thargoid]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GregJZ52 wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>...take your lvl 50 and go mentor people and teach them the game. so that when they get to your level or close they can be more of a help.  Help others enjoy the game also.  Even if you have done it before.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>It is not my job to make the game more enjoyable for other people. The game itself should be enjoyable without my help. And I will be damned if I ever pay money to sit around helping other people. I pay money for fun MYSELF, not to create it for someone else....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If I want to do some charity I will donate food to the homeless. I play eq2 for MY enjoyment.</DIV>