Copy Toons to Test Server

[Poyz]

<DIV>Moogard Quote "As mentioned in Scott Hartsman's Producer's Letter, our goal is to build a thriving Test server community. Since our Test server opened up after most of our regular worlds, many players who would like to participate on Test currently have characters on other servers and may be reluctant to start over.<BR> <BR>In order to let these folks join the Test community, we are now offering character transfers to our Test server. To make this a more manageable process, we will perform character moves in phases of several servers at a time."<BR><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=news_announcements&message.id=109" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=news_announcements&message.id=109</A></DIV> <DIV><BR>I suggest that SOE let us COPY our toons over to the Test Sever instaed of Transfering to the Test Server. Also give us the option to copy 1 toon as an option. Also with Full gear, and coin that is on that toon as well, not naked. You don't need to copy the Bank contents. Why on earth (er Norrath) <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> would you want to startover a toon you already worked so hard on naked?</DIV> <DIV>This would serve to give you (SOE) a proper population, class and lvl flexabilty to test new items, spells, zones, and encounters. </DIV> <DIV>Moogard Quote "Please note that this is a character move option, not a character copy option. Your character will no longer exist on its original server. Our goal is to enhance the Test community by adding players who consistently want to be at the forefront of improving the game, and the best way to achieve that is to offer the chance to make Test server your character's permanent home."</DIV> <DIV>As a long time player I will NOT transfer my toons to test. I didn't buy EQ2 to do yer testing for you. I also would miss many frinds and Guildies which I know will not Move their toons to Test. However I would be willing to copy my toons to test and test new things out now and then to help improve the game quality and hopefully find your bugs for you. </DIV> <DIV>SOE this is a TEST server. I think if you would have patched the test server yesturday FIRST, you probibly would have found the Stein of Mo and Uber drop rare problem before you had all that downtime.</DIV> <DIV>Now you are probinly thinking that Everyone will copy toons over and stay and play there. I kind of dought that. I would like to check new things you are doing to my class though so I can provide feedback on it.</DIV> <DIV>As far as economy goes, who cares! This is the Test Server. It is meant to test your code and make sure Live Servers don't crash when you patch them.</DIV> <DIV>You can even put a time limt on the Copied toons so that regular Test patrons are not effected. I would not mind that at all.</DIV> <DIV>SOE, you all did a fine job creating EQ2, I played EQ1 for a very long time. Let us try tihs and see if we the EQ community can actually test these patches before you go live with this stuff.</DIV> <DIV>Now these are just suggestions. I do not claim to have all the answers, but I do know that after these big patches and all the downtime that goes with them this is really getting irritating to me as a player.</DIV> <DIV>Also you since you all neglect to update the Login messages and only provide 1 chat room that holds 1000 peeps outta 350,000 playes is gettin abit ols as well. Not knowing what is going on (Being in the dark) really irritates players.</DIV> <DIV>SOE has 350,000+ subscrbers at this time x $15.00 bones a month which at a minimum is (5.25) Million bones.</DIV> <DIV>For that kind of cash flow we should not have to have all this downtime after a patch.</DIV>

[Jillybean]

<DIV>They need to take a page from Anarchy Online. AO actually has a nice test system. A separate server and client that doesn't effect your main account. Yes, you start as a newb but based on activity and help you give the actual bughunters (volunteers and Funcom PQA), you qualify for level boosts and such. They provide some starter money, they are willing to help with major things so that players CAN test everything that needs to be tested. While bugs still get through, at least they have people out there testing. They even have dedicated, recognized testers (Council of Testers and such) guilds that are out there helping the new test kids and the PQA. Make test a place to go to that doesn't penalize people for wanting to help. As it stands, it's "well..lose your main account toons or just don't test." That seems counter productive. If it were possible to set up a second client that associates to nothing but the test server then it might be possible to let people create a test server only "account" and that way they can test, then just open their regular EQII client and play there for a while. No harm, no foul. Sony gets free testers, testers don't have to worry about their acounts being limited</DIV>

[Naughtesn]

<DIV>Well, there are several threads on this theme going in several different forums.  There was a direct response to the issue in this thread...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testdev&message.id=233#M233" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testdev&message.id=233#M233</A><BR></DIV> <DIV>I feel like this is a viable solution - which will help catch *more* or the issues before hitting live.</DIV>

[Kraff]

<DIV>  There is an intrinsic problem with turning your test server into another production shard.  No matter what they call it; allowing people to play there full time, investing their already advanced characters while taking up slots that now cannot be used on other servers, turns the test server into a production shard.  When that happens the community of the test server treat it more like a normal live server and spend more time playing the game as opposed to 'testing'.  Sure, problems will be found but the 'testing' there is less focused that what you normally find on a straight test-only server.  Maybe quantity makes up for it but there are few people who want to risk the character they have spend months leveling, and or moving from another server, on some task that could potentially hurt them.</DIV> <DIV>  Of course, if the Dev team isn't going to listen to their test community and push a bad patch regardless, then it doesn't really matter what kind of system they use.</DIV>

[SmakenDah]

<DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#ff9900 size=2>Just a thought about this, I think if SOE added a 5th character slot that could ONLY be used for a character on Test people might be more inclined to try the Test server to see new changes coming. I know if I had a spare slot, I would have popped on to see how the Mentor system worked.</FONT></DIV>

[Daffid011]

Jillybean,Test uses it own seperate client and server just like Anarchy Online, except we are not playing for bonus club points. As for incentives, well I think they attract people who are focused on other things than testing.Smaken, You get 4 seperate character slots on test server that do not count towards your live character slots. So you can have 4 on live an 4 on test. There is a FAQ posted about life on test in the "test server" forum if that helps you out.

[Jillybean]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Daffid011 wrote:<BR>Jillybean,<BR><BR>Test uses it own seperate client and server just like Anarchy Online, except we are not playing for bonus club points. As for incentives, well I think they attract people who are focused on other things than testing.<BR><BR><BR>Smaken, <BR>You get 4 seperate character slots on test server that do not count towards your live character slots. So you can have 4 on live an 4 on test. There is a FAQ posted about life on test in the "test server" forum if that helps you out.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Dunno about most but I played on test, using the incentives to go out, test, submit my bug reports, and hope for the chance to get a little help getting a raid item or a great implant that I could use to improve my character..so I could test different content. Bonuses don't always hinder people from testing, some use them as a "prize" for being dedicated to testing

[Azamien-Dermorate]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SmakenDahed wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#ff9900 size=2>Just a thought about this, I think if SOE added a 5th character slot that could ONLY be used for a character on Test people might be more inclined to try the Test server to see new changes coming. I know if I had a spare slot, I would have popped on to see how the Mentor system worked.</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>you  already can have a whole new set of 4 more characters (or 8 if your an all access subscriber) on test. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit ** sorry already been said on this thread ... thats what I get for posting before reading everyone else's responces* <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   </DIV><p>Message Edited by Azamien-Dermorate on <span class=date_text>03-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:20 PM</span>

[Naughtesn]

<DIV>Well, I think any concerns over turning into a production shard are relatively baseless.  Currently, the test server is not working as intended.  Many many things are caught by the community, and fixed.  But many other things are not...and the reason we often times get is the test server cannot truly duplicate a live server environment.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I for one would have tried to sellback my stein of moggok - or at least checked the prices.  How many characters on test even HAD their stein to test? 1? 3? 0?  I would have to guess zero because I would hope that anyone who did try and sell and noticed it sold back for 2147pp *might* have mentioned something.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Someone might have noticed the sellback of quest books and the exploit of having certain quest books near the merchants.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you open the test server up to more people, you will invite the good and the bad into the testing environment...just lke the real servers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I get the feeling like the test server community (I may be totally wring here) doesn't want an influx of players for fear that their *community* and low-pop server environment would be damaged.  That really shoudl not be an issue...testing -- as comprehensive as we can make it - should be the first priority.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I for one am not interested in leveling up a toon AGAIN on a low population server.  Its hard enough getting groups and advancing on a live server.  Let me and others who have invested time in their mains the opportunity to participate in the testing environment.  I don't think its a cureall, but I would imagine it would have to be an improvement.</DIV>

[Baelzharon]

Even better option for test. Allow players themselves to produce a 24 hour copy of an existing character for testing purposes on test. This would allow anyone the ability to copy their existing character into the Test server at any time and run some tests for feedback to the devs. This would remove any chance people might expoit or take advantage of content for their main characters considering the Copy would be deleted anyways. Pros:-Players get the chance to test changes that directly effect them-Developers get more feedback, and a closer examination of how changes will effect the playerbase-Faster turn around for changes to move forward.-Great PR for SoECons:-Additional coding and DB work to create this kind of replication system. No doubt the databases which make up our characters are very complex. I don't think a simple DTS package would accomplish this, but the advantage really weights out the initial coding.-Zero chance of creating a lasting community on Test

[Naughtesn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Baelzharon wrote:<BR><BR>-Zero chance of creating a lasting community on Test<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I am not certain why this is the prevailing opion, even with temporary or permananet copying if toons to TEST - you will still have your "career" test server inhabitants who like to play with the cutting edge version of the game with a low population.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't buy that the test server community would die....</DIV>

[Baelzharon]

Option #2 that SoE could approach would be cheaper rates to customers who play on Test. I bet a lot of people would agree to play on the Test server primarily if they could pay less.

[Daffid011]

The only reason most of you are here is that the live servers are down. When they go up again you will be gone until something else happens. I may sound like an [Removed for Content], but it is the truth.

[Evadne]

Amen Fekkin.

[Baelzharon]

<blockquote><hr>Daffid011 wrote:The only reason most of you are here is that the live servers are down. When they go up again you will be gone until something else happens. I may sound like an [Removed for Content], but it is the truth.<hr></blockquote>Maybe reason we are here is because test server let a metric ton of bugs fly through to the live servers? Maybe we're trying to think up more ways for more people to take interest in the Test server? And yes, you sounded like an [Removed for Content].

[Naughtesn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Baelzharon wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Daffid011 wrote:<BR>The only reason most of you are here is that the live servers are down. When they go up again you will be gone until something else happens. I may sound like an [Removed for Content], but it is the truth.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>Maybe reason we are here is because test server let a metric ton of bugs fly through to the live servers? Maybe we're trying to think up more ways for more people to take interest in the Test server? And yes, you sounded like an [Removed for Content].<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Amen brotha...</P>

[Daffid011]

<blockquote><hr>Baelzharon wrote:<blockquote><hr>Daffid011 wrote:The only reason most of you are here is that the live servers are down. When they go up again you will be gone until something else happens. I may sound like an [Removed for Content], but it is the truth.<hr></blockquote>Maybe reason we are here is because test server let a metric ton of bugs fly through to the live servers? Maybe we're trying to think up more ways for more people to take interest in the Test server? And yes, you sounded like an [Removed for Content].<hr></blockquote>Maybe this is just another knee jerk emotional reaction to the servers being down and the same idea being beaten to death once again. If the OP had used the search function he/she may have seen that and maybe had something to add or simple skipped the post all together.For the record we did not have the same problems on test you have on live - at least from what I read about the live servers anyhow. I am not into playing the blame game, but things are going to go afoul some times. We will miss big bugs and the devs will also. That is just how things are in all online games. If people are just going to flood over here during the dark times to shake things up and be absent when things get back to normal, then that really isn't helping is it?

[Naughtesn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Daffid011 wrote:<BR><BR>Maybe this is just another knee jerk emotional reaction to the servers being down and the same idea being beaten to death once again. If the OP had used the search function he/she may have seen that and maybe had something to add or simple skipped the post all together.<BR><BR>For the record we did not have the same problems on test you have on live - at least from what I read about the live servers anyhow. I am not into playing the blame game, but things are going to go afoul some times. We will miss big bugs and the devs will also. That is just how things are in all online games. If people are just going to flood over here during the dark times to shake things up and be absent when things get back to normal, then that really isn't helping is it?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Or....maybe the community isn't willing to settle for the less-than-sterling work being done by the DEVs prior to test release and maybe the community isn't willing to settle for the "not-even-close-to-simulating-a-live-server"-environment Test has become.  If 14 people can do in 5 minutes (sell the stein for 2147pp), what an entire development team and server community could not do in 2 weeks, then something needs to change.</P> <P>I have many times considered going on to test - MANY - but faced with the prospect of starting a toon over on a low-pop server isn't the kind of time sink I enjoy (got enough of those with regular gamelay).</P> <P>If I could take a snapshot version of my main and play it on test after releases, I would.  AND, also realize the DEVs are willing to rethink this - your opinions not withstanding - see the following quote from Mr Hartsman from http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testdev&message.id=233#M233<BR>. (My emphasis...):</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P><FONT size=2>----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>We're going to see how many people are interested in making Test their permanent home, just like any other live server.  The same model that EQ used successfully for years, where Test players can be as proud of and attached to their server as, say, Najena people are of theirs.</FONT></P> <DIV><FONT size=2>If we can successfully adopt that same model, fantastic.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>The games that use the copy method tend to have test servers that are very lightly used except for short periods of time during downtimes, and don't have a thriving long-term community, which is a bit less helpful for testing.<BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Please note: This is our current thinking.  <FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>This isn't a permanent mandate.  This isn't a brick wall of reasoning.  What happens from here may turn out to convince us that there's a better way to go.</STRONG></FONT>  But for now, this is what we're trying out, given that EQ's model has yet to be beaten. <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif" width=16 border=0></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>- Scott</FONT></DIV> <P><FONT size=2>____<BR>Scott Hartsman<BR>Senior Producer, EverQuest II</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Message Edited to include link - and clarify quote by Naughtesnec on <SPAN class=date_text>03-10-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>08:21 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Naughtesnec on <span class=date_text>03-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:22 AM</span>

[Daffid011]

I understand that you think you have a valid point or some new spin on how to fix things, but you don't and they are not new. How can I say this with such certainty? For one, this idea has been posted over and over. Also, I played on a test server both before and after a "character copy" was implemented. What happened there that makes me so certain? Population went DOWN, yes it went down. Patches took LONGER to go live: from 7days to several weeks. There was no marked improvement in the quality of the patches, in fact I would say they got worse for the next several months as unrelated bugs went overlooked. This was on the Pendragon server of DAOC for reference. I can confidently say that "cloning" will miss more bugs that what we have now. I'm sure you feel that you would have caught the stein, but it is very easy to say that after the fact and with 14 out of severeal hundred thousand people playing compared to a few hundred. The character move on the other hand was wonderful. We got some really sharp people (one who caught a huge dupe bug this patch) and overall population went up, levels went up. This was a great step towards helping the process. I hope more get the chance to join us in the future.

[Naughtesn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Daffid011 wrote:<BR>I understand that you think you have a valid point or some new spin on how to fix things, but you don't and they are not new. How can I say this with such certainty? For one, this idea has been posted over and over. Also, I played on a test server both before and after a "character copy" was implemented. What happened there that makes me so certain? Population went DOWN, yes it went down. Patches took LONGER to go live: from 7days to several weeks. There was no marked improvement in the quality of the patches, in fact I would say they got worse for the next several months as unrelated bugs went overlooked. This was on the Pendragon server of DAOC for reference. <BR><BR>I can confidently say that "cloning" will miss more bugs that what we have now. I'm sure you feel that you would have caught the stein, but it is very easy to say that after the fact and with 14 out of severeal hundred thousand people playing compared to a few hundred. <BR><BR>The character move on the other hand was wonderful. We got some really sharp people (one who caught a huge dupe bug this patch) and overall population went up, levels went up. This was a great step towards helping the process. I hope more get the chance to join us in the future.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>I am not the only one that thinks I have a valid point or idea.  I do not claim the idea to be new.  This is not DAOC.  I don't know how you can say the population would go down on test server since we havent tried anything like this in this game.  One thing seems certain though, live server populations will continue to go down if seemingly easy-to-catch bugs are pushed to live without adequate testing.</P> <P>Yes 14 people caught the stein bug...in 5 min. Yet no one, including these sharp people you mention, caught this in 5 min.   The point about the stein bug is this:  After the first patch changing sellback costs, many posters noted the sellback prices were extremely high, then a dev posted saying these were in fact overpriced.  The a subsequent patch on test changed the sellback price from ## plat to ## gold.  At this point, a responsible and capable testign community would have checked every heritage item in game.  This "bug" publicity combined with the patch notes led 14 people to *immediately* sell the item for- surprise- 2147pp.  (Hell, I sold evey heritage item I didn't need within those 5 mins too.) Imagine how many would have sold it back if the live servers had a full day with the bug in place.</P> <P>Why wasn't the stein tested?  Has any one completed the stein quest on test?  I'm guessing not or it would have been caught.  If someone had completed the quest, then shame on Test for not even testing the sellback price.</P> <P>I think this also helps explain why so much of the higher end content is released buggy....there isn't enough of a higher level player base on test to adequately test it.</P> <P>Additionally, I read post after post from level 50 players who are bored.  I see in GC level 50s complaining about nothing to do.  Maybe this would give these players some alternatives - copying to test - to play.  Considering these are the people that flew threw existing content, I am confident that enough of them might take advantage of something like this strictly to see new content before someone else.</P> <P>The issue of "cloning" vs. moving really centers around the timesink involved in leveling post-20 or so.  AS I have stated earlier, I want to help test - I do not want to level another character to 45 (my existing toon) just to be involved in testing level-appropriate content and changes.  I do not want to do 17 heritage quests over again.  I do not want to do the AQs over again.  I do not want to level another toon to 38 Jeweler.  I <STRONG>do</STRONG> want to particpate in testing relating to higher level spell changes for my class. I <STRONG>do </STRONG>want to particpate in testing updates to T4 and T5 recipes and content.  Why deny me and others would would do this?</P> <P>Heck, make it a one-time shot just to boost the population.</P> <P>You experiences in DAOC notwithstanding, I think this deserves a look here.  </P> <P>And since the test server team is remaining open to future changes to augment the test server environment.  I will continue to post my ideas here, and anywhere else I find appropriate.  Perhaps in the next "boy we are sorry we really should have caught that bug"-thread after the next live update...</P><p>Message Edited by Naughtesnec on <span class=date_text>03-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:04 AM</span>

[LadyNigh]

Actually if memory serves me correctly, they can implement a very good test center. In EQ1 they have it that you can do /testchar (think thats the command or similar) and have an instant lvl 25 toon with 90% of its spells and full set of gear and weapon and all your skills to that level are maxed...You can do this with 8 chars on test so can test all kinds of stuff.....also they do allow you to submit a request to have 1 char copied to test from your main account. In SWG test (and their betas for expansions) they have what they call frogs...blue frog like machines you can take your char to and change professions, get weapons,resources etc from in order to test different game dynamics.....I realize the game is new however with the technology they employ in the other SOE games there really isn't a reason they can't do the same or similar here. If they did one of the above I would be happy to have a char on test center and test whatever they ask a few days a week <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I used to love playing on test!Test communities rock, the people really band together to help the live game players A LOT more than they realize.

[Daffid011]

****I am not the only one that thinks I have a valid point or idea. I do not claim the idea to be new. This is not DAOC. I don't know how you can say the population would go down on test server since we havent tried anything like this in this game. ****Since I can say for fact that I have seen this happen in a game that is structured nearly identical to EQ I think I have some basis for speaking what will happen here. You on the other hand are clinging to what sounds good on paper and will only rest once you see it in action for better or worse. This despite being shown a model that was ruined by it. So feel free to think what you want, I am very confident I know what will happen.***Why wasn't the stein tested? Has any one completed the stein quest on test? I'm guessing not or it would have been caught. If someone had completed the quest, then shame on Test for not even testing the sellback price.****Maybe the stein was an 11th hour change in the most recent patch. Maybe the few, if any, stein owners were not on. We are but a few hundred and you compare us to what 350,000 can do. It is completely possible there are no steins on the sever since the test sever didn't really launch until January and we ARE lagging behind the live servers. This will correct itself in a short time as we are getting enough people near that area now. You however have no idea what gets done here, because you are just reacting after the fact to your servers being down. Like the speculation that anyone would have logged on their clone to test the stein. Bugs will go live, I am just glad someone caught the obscure money dupe which would have been tenfold worse for live than a very noticable sellback bug.***Additionally, I read post after post from level 50 players who are bored. I see in GC level 50s complaining about nothing to do. Maybe this would give these players some alternatives - copying to test - to play. Considering these are the people that flew threw existing content, I am confident that enough of them might take advantage of something like this strictly to see new content before someone else.***Yes, that is exaclty what I am afraid of you see. Giving a bunch of bored complaining powergamers disposable characters on a server that holds zero consequences for their actions. This is not an ideal solution at all, but you tend to view things as if they would happen in the best light and disregard the human nature factor. I've seen the bored high levels with copies and what they do, sorry but it will not help. Again I speak from experience, what do you have to support your idea besides "lets do it and see what happens". ****The issue of "cloning" vs. moving really centers around the timesink involved in leveling post-20 or so. AS I have stated earlier, I want to help test - I do not want to level another character to 45 (my existing toon) just to be involved in testing level-appropriate content and changes. I do not want to do 17 heritage quests over again. I do not want to do the AQs over again. I do not want to level another toon to 38 Jeweler. I do want to particpate in testing relating to higher level spell changes for my class. I do want to particpate in testing updates to T4 and T5 recipes and content. Why deny me and others would would do this?****And therein lies the entire problem. You don't want to do what occurs in normal game play, nor does most others asking for a copy. The reality is that you may port over for an hour or so everytime there is a new patch, check out one or two new features and then be gone back to your "real" server. Then all the bugs that are caught by just doing what you would normally do might pass by undetected. The entire point is you are not replicating what happens on a live server when you tour around test server on your clone. Nothing matters to the character, there is no need to do anything tedious that you will just have to do again on live to have a lasting effect on your character, etc etc. Not to say there are not some good people who would come here as a result of a copy, but that would be the far far minority.Tell me, how many hours a week do you really plan on "testing" if you are given a clone? I bet the number is less than 1 hour a week. Cheers,

[Naughtesn]

<DIV>All I can say at this point is you must have someother motivation for being resistant to this idea.  We can continue debating reasonably valid perspectives.  I can only think that you are being overly protective of your server enviroment to keep it low pop and quaint rather than thinking about the good of the game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You have no idea how much time I would spend on test should this be implemented.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One - 1 - a single person who had the stein on test and could have tested sellback would have prevented 6 hours of unnecessary downtime.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm sure the 300,000 people ( or subset of said number) would have appreciated being able to log in sooner.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Deal with the fact you don't make the decisions here - and just because you are against something, doesn't mean it won't happen.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will continue to make it my personal crusade as your arguments - however long winded - aren't compelling.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Naughtesnec on <span class=date_text>03-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:09 PM</span>

[Bhagpuss]

<DIV>I play fairly regularly on Test - just dinged 20th and became a necromancer yesterday. I am all for adding the option to copy Live characters to test.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>HOWEVER </STRONG>I am certain that if it ever does happen it will have next to no effect on the number of players using the server on a regular basis. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let's say you play a 45th level Guardian on Everfrost. You /testcopy your Guardian to Test. You <EM>still </EM>have your 45th Guardian on Everfrost. He is still your main play character but now you have two of him. You still have the same amount of time to play EQ2 but now you have an extra character, on a server to which you have no affinity and on which you know no-one except any friends who copied over with you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Every time you play your copied character, any xp he gets, any items he wins, any quests he completes will not matter the way they would matter on your Live character. In fact, it may even be irritating to see your copy character get something your Main character hasn't done. Few people will spend the time doing long quests they haven't already done and which they will then have to repeat on their Live characters. Few people will be willing to spend (or even be able to spend) the extra time levelling up a copied character, so unless the character could be recopied at will (not seen this on any game yet), it will soon fall behind your play character and become even less attractive to log in.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Consequently, most copied characters will sit unused, mothballed, on Test. Every time there is a new patch on test, especially one with new zones, people will log on for one session and go sightseeing. Then they will be back to their Live characters again. About the only time people will play their copied characters other than that will be when their ive server is down.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The main benefit of having copied characters is that devs can use /broadcast on Live servers to ask for people to come across to test a specific issue. The main disadvantage is that if this is done often, it will be so disruptive of the normal environment for regular Test players that the server will probably cease to have a regular community altogether.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If cost wasn't a concern, I would suggest the best solution would be to have both the current test server as it is, <EM>and </EM>a Testcopy server which would be used only for  Dev requested specific tests and to which characters of the relevant classes and levels would be copied (or on which you could just make stock characters as in EQ's beta tests) as and when required.</DIV>

[Kuulei]

<DIV>It was because Test Server did find a bug, that live servers went down and if there is anyone to blame, it is me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I reported to Nate about items selling back for HUGE amounts of plat and showed him, but this wasn't found out until Sunday and I wasn't able to get  hold of him until Monday morning *still loved that remark when the price was checked..'HOLY [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]'</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Another thing, I know I am not in the habit of pricing my gear, crafted items, heritages, etc. and I am sure others on the server don't regularly check prices. So we can't catch everything.  Test is a 'new-ish' server and needs to catch up a bit to the levels on Live so until we do, we <STRONG>will miss the higher-end bugs </STRONG>because we are not quite there yet.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Copying characters to Test for these purposes is really not feasible</STRONG>.  I have seen copies in the past (EQ1 test) come over, test high-end content then either disappear after a week or 'farm' what they can due to boredom.  We get small patches often, never knowing what exactly they patched and have to /bug or /feedback as we find problems (I am sure there are bugs still there from release *laughs*) and its only when they post an actual 'update' message, that we can check for specifics to make sure what was "fixed" is actually fixed.  Right now I see transferred level 50's mentoring down, getting acquainted and helping others which is great.  I don't see how a '<STRONG>copy</STRONG>' that would more than likely only pop onto Test when production servers are down, would help at all to find existing bugs in the hour or so they would log on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>IF</STRONG> they allowed copies, just how much time would <STRONG>you</STRONG>, as a copy, actually spend on Test Server?  Would you spend the countless hours or days doing a quest to see if its bugged in anyway?  Would you level a tradeskill just to see if anything was bugged with production or sale of player-made items?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The game is still so new!  Give it a chance and when I was on Innothule before Test Sever launched, I would still /bug and /feedback.  Its not only the 'Test Server' responsibility to catch any and all bugs, if you see a bug, exploit, etc. <STRONG>REPORT IT. </STRONG>The /bug, /feedback and /petiton (for those emergency bugs) are your friends!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/nibbles n' friendly rantings courtesy of your 36 Test Server Druidess, Kuulei</DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>

[Evadne]

Kuulei is right. The character copy scenario has been tried on Test Servers before with no more success than allowing a Test Server to develope on its own, and paying testers too. Yeah thats right there are folks on the server who work for Sony---who are testing. Thousands, maybe millions of variables go into a daily patch. If there are 100 players or 1000 the odds of catching every single one do not improve enough to warrent even this lengthy of a debate on it. The server is often patched daily, several times a day even. How many copies would take the time to leave their Real Server, because they won't consider test real, on a daily basis to explore every single patch? Wait....how would they even know if the server was patched if they aren't there...The ferver of Naught's arguement is not unnoticed. I believe you want to see the testing process improve. Please, try it out for yourself. I know you don't want to start over. But, why not make a character on Test and play for a couple of weeks. See how much you can do to help.~Eva

[jordaann]

Just throwing my 2cp out here but allowing us to move our characters to test DOES have merit. May or may not be the solution they are looking for.In my experience all the RPG games I have played I make an attempt at playing on the test server as unlike games which are on a smaller scale MMORPGs do require assistance from their customer base to be tested properly. From what I have seen EQ1 and now in EQ2 the test server is a bit neglected by the customers which causes bugs to slip through. The ONLY game I have played that seemed to have a good test system has been AO. 1. They would give startup cash. 5million credits to any toon once it got to around level 20. The direct result of this was money had little to no value on the test server which in turn caused the economy to cease to exist. There was no selling and no buying between characters because what is the purpose as money was easy to come by so had very little value. People that enjoyed crafting did it because they liked it and to help out other rather than to make a profit. If one player had a good item that they didnt need or want they merely offered it up to thier friends or to the general population.2. created a special chat channel called "social" which everyone in the world could participate in. Given the small population of most test communities this enhances the ability to have a social feel and not feel so alone.3. In effort to test higher end content the guides would assist in the formation of raids and parties to take down harder targets. This was also down to assist players as the numbers required for some of the hi end encounters could never be obtained due to low population.4. They did not allow the transfer or copy of your character from live to test but the test community was very viable due to the preceeding points5. For each bug report that you submitted you recieved bugpoints. More detailed and helpful the report the more points awarded. These points could be used to obtain items that otherwise would be quite difficult on the test server.I loved it and although I did leave AO to come to EQ2 it is one of the things I miss most about AO

[Proudfoot]

<blockquote><hr>jordaann wrote:Just throwing my 2cp out here but allowing us to move our characters to test DOES have merit. May or may not be the solution they are looking for.In my experience all the RPG games I have played I make an attempt at playing on the test server as unlike games which are on a smaller scale MMORPGs do require assistance from their customer base to be tested properly. From what I have seen EQ1 and now in EQ2 the test server is a bit neglected by the customers which causes bugs to slip through. The ONLY game I have played that seemed to have a good test system has been AO. 1. They would give startup cash. 5million credits to any toon once it got to around level 20. The direct result of this was money had little to no value on the test server which in turn caused the economy to cease to exist. There was no selling and no buying between characters because what is the purpose as money was easy to come by so had very little value. People that enjoyed crafting did it because they liked it and to help out other rather than to make a profit. If one player had a good item that they didnt need or want they merely offered it up to thier friends or to the general population.2. created a special chat channel called "social" which everyone in the world could participate in. Given the small population of most test communities this enhances the ability to have a social feel and not feel so alone.3. In effort to test higher end content the guides would assist in the formation of raids and parties to take down harder targets. This was also down to assist players as the numbers required for some of the hi end encounters could never be obtained due to low population.4. They did not allow the transfer or copy of your character from live to test but the test community was very viable due to the preceeding points5. For each bug report that you submitted you recieved bugpoints. More detailed and helpful the report the more points awarded. These points could be used to obtain items that otherwise would be quite difficult on the test server.I loved it and although I did leave AO to come to EQ2 it is one of the things I miss most about AO<hr></blockquote>The bug software, tracking system and overall concept was designed by a player. 3rd party use. Funcom didn't come up with it. They did however take Wolf into their wing.Nizno and I were friends for a bit there.

[Kwoung]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Poyzin wrote:<BR> <DIV>I suggest that SOE let us COPY our toons over to the Test Sever instaed of Transfering to the Test Server. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>SOE already copies toons to Test Server... selectively. They do it as needed with players they have been working with for years and have proven to get the testing they need looked at done. Everyone else gets the move option when it is available or is free to roll up a char on the Test Server. Basically, they need the folks they do copy over for testing to test, not just poking around to get a heads up on new content/changes, like 99% of the players in a open copy would do... if allowed to do so.</DIV>

[Daffid011]

<blockquote><hr>Naughtesnec wrote:<DIV>All I can say at this point is you must have someother motivation for being resistant to this idea. We can continue debating reasonably valid perspectives. I can only think that you are being overly protective of your server enviroment to keep it low pop and quaint rather than thinking about the good of the game.</span><hr></blockquote>Let me defang you once again: I would love for there to be more permanent players on test server. Do you see the one word that seperates us? Because your "perspective" has already beeen tried and failed it is not valid point until you can show some ways to correct what has already happened. Shouting "clone live toons now" and saying you could have saved the masses from the dreaded downtime in 3.5 minutes does not make your point valid. Just because your idea suits your playing desires, does not mean it is a valid solution.Anyhow, good luck with your crusade.

[Naughtesn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Daffid011 wrote:<BR><BR>Let me defang you once again: I would love for there to be more permanent players on test server. Do you see the one word that seperates us? <BR><BR>Because your "perspective" has already beeen tried and failed it is not valid point until you can show some ways to correct what has already happened. Shouting "clone live toons now" and saying you could have saved the masses from the dreaded downtime in 3.5 minutes does not make your point valid. Just because your idea suits your playing desires, does not mean it is a valid solution.<BR><BR>Anyhow, good luck with your crusade.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So because one doesn't dedicate their entire playing time to Test, this someone lessens or nullifies their potential contribution to bug reporting?  Will the /feedback and /bug commands not work if I spend more than 5% of my time on a live server?  Please... =/</P> <P>My "perspective" has not been tried here, it has not failed here.  These aren't the DAoC boards, or any other MMO's for that matter.  </P> <P>And saving the masses in 3.5 mins is what would have happened.</P> <P>My idea suits my playing desires <STRONG>and</STRONG> the good of the game.</P> <P>And, as I quoted above, the teams that decide these things are not locked into a "We will never do this"-attitude as you are.</P> <P>Clone live toons now!</P><p>Message Edited by Naughtesnec on <span class=date_text>03-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:17 AM</span>

[Mindgamer]

<DIV><FONT face="Courier New" color=#66ff33 size=3><EM>Lets face it, temporary copies for higher level quests/raids that take a while probably wont achieve the testing goal either. You test because you enjoy testing...because you enjoyed beta...the same reason I moved my higher level mystic here only to find very few others did. SOE needs to continue to offer up the server transfers to Test, and those of you with higher level toons who think you have something to contribute need to take the risk and make the move. Playing tourista on Test won't help anyone.</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><EM><FONT face="Courier New" color=#66ff33 size=3></FONT></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM><FONT face="Courier New" color=#66ff33 size=3>Agedone, 38th Mystic, Test</FONT></EM></DIV>