what was the headline... play whenever they want to???

[Rwill]

<DIV>anyone else see this as ironic.. what is the deal with having a test server if its not preventing these long outages.. and who is in charge of the info going out to the public about whats going on.. i mean is changin 2000plat item to the right price really take this long.. whats going on guys.. and OMG the chat channels... wow im lucky to get into the french or german channels that are LOcked. down.. they call it moderated.. whatever that means.. why cant we have more channels.. ??? come on guys if im not going to get to play for the rest of the day i can deal with it if ull give me some info..</DIV>

[Ace235228]

<DIV>I couldn't agree more with the chatroom part. I mean, there aren't enough spaces in the chat room and what they call moderation is more or less killing the chat completely by making it so no one can talk at all. SoE is under-staffed for this kind of situation, yet they don't do much of anything to prevent it from happening. They should do what they did for EQ in the chats to keep some of us calm. They had many chats even for the servers and let people create their own rooms.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*Edit* Fixed Typos/Grammar errors</DIV><p>Message Edited by Ace235228 on <span class=date_text>03-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:07 PM</span>

[daddus]

<DIV>What we need to see implemented is Service Level Agreements across the board for online games so that the gaming companies are held accountable for their loss of service to us the paying customers. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My guess is that you will see a vast improvement on customer service and less downtime if it was implemented.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh and SOE just shut down the test server as its obvious you don't actually do any testing on it, otherwise these mistakes in the patch coding (and it seems to be every time a large change is made) would be noticed whilst it was being tested on the TEST server.........</DIV>

[Amise]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> daddus wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh and SOE just shut down the test server as its obvious you don't actually do any testing on it, otherwise these mistakes in the patch coding (and it seems to be every time a large change is made) would be noticed whilst it was being tested on the TEST server.........</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>To you and everyone else whining about this, stop whining and start playing on the test server.  The main reason buggy code goes live is that the test server population is so small.  There are too few people doing the testing.   You can leave buggy code on test for a month and if it's an obscure problem chances are it might not be discovered until after it goes live to populated servers simply because on a server with several thousand people interacting with that code you are many more times likely to uncover whatever the problem is.  It's a simple enough concept.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In short -- use your whine time to play on test and help reduce buggy code frequency.</DIV>

[Melamp]

They don't allow character copies to the test server because they want dedicated players on TESTMost ppl won't give up their higher lvl players to start a new one and not be able to test things that when they go live will effect their high lvl players.If you want dedicated players on the test server...don't charge..why pay the money to make sure things work.And beyond that...I'm not a fan of big goverment but.When your Phone company or ISP goes down there are FCC fines to those companies. I would love to see something like the BBB regulate MMORPGS, should have some sorta of quality of service clause in the agreement. Hell even products that don't do what they are described to do get fines...like most of the infomecial things.yet soe contract is more along the lines ofCan't play whenever you wantcan't play the game on any non-soe serveryou may get a virusyou can't do anything to hurt our computers/serverswhat you do in the game can't be sold because it's oursWe can change these policies anytimewe may cancel your acct without notice

[Proudfoot]

<blockquote><hr>Melampus wrote:They don't allow character copies to the test server because they want dedicated players on TESTMost ppl won't give up their higher lvl players to start a new one and not be able to test things that when they go live will effect their high lvl players.If you want dedicated players on the test server...don't charge..why pay the money to make sure things work.And beyond that...I'm not a fan of big goverment but.When your Phone company or ISP goes down there are FCC fines to those companies. I would love to see something like the BBB regulate MMORPGS, should have some sorta of quality of service clause in the agreement. Hell even products that don't do what they are described to do get fines...like most of the infomecial things.yet soe contract is more along the lines ofCan't play whenever you wantcan't play the game on any non-soe serveryou may get a virusyou can't do anything to hurt our computers/serverswhat you do in the game can't be sold because it's oursWe can change these policies anytimewe may cancel your acct without notice<hr></blockquote>My ISP (Cox) goes down every week, you don't seriously think complaining to them about it every week will make the outages stop, do you? They won't.The Test Server is doing what its supposed to be doing, its SOE that need to work on their patch order. They often patch Live servers BEFORE they patch said content to the Test Server. Its true. Many small update patches that you see on Live over given weeks are put on Test AFTERWARDS.Don't whine about players <b>trying</b> to help. That's uncalled for.Wonder if you sit back in your computer chair and critcize people who volunteer in your community. If you can even comprehend that.The Test Server isn't some peachy place either. They (devs) often announce server is going down several times a day. There is NO eta given 95% of the time. The hardware/connection is not as stable as the Live server bundle. Buying food/drink from the broker is a miracle.Its a rugged frontier that has to be crossed on the Test Server just to survive to test the content. High levels are ON the Test Server as well, thanks to the character moves SOE has done over the months. Even level 50's running around.Just because there were problems with the patch doesn't mean Test Server did fill its role. There would be 10x more problems if they hadn't used the Test Server for most of the content changes. Especially that very annoying bug that disarms you everytime you zone! ARGH

[Melamp]

I can bet you money that if you called your ISP after an outage you'd get creditDo or do not..there is no tryI sometimes volunteer in my community...it's for my personal reward not others I could careless if they notice or like it

[Kerri]

If you don't like it, bloody well quit (which I reccommend you do). SoE is bloodthirsty for the blood of your coinpurse! Er... Uh... They want money, rather! They don't give a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] if servers are down, it doesn't make them earn any less money.

[WAPCE]

<blockquote><hr>Proudfoot wrote:My ISP (Cox) goes down every week, you don't seriously think complaining to them about it every week will make the outages stop, do you? They won't.</blockquote>You're very foolish if you don't ask for what you pay for. My Comcast line rarely goes down, but in the couple instances in which it has, I've been compensated for my lost connection, and they usually throw in the remainder of the month on suspended billing. This is a regular occurance with service companies.

[Ardenauk]

<DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>To you and everyone else whining about this, stop whining and start playing on the test server.  The main reason buggy code goes live is that the test server population is so small.  There are too few people doing the testing.   You can leave buggy code on test for a month and if it's an obscure problem chances are it might not be discovered until after it goes live to populated servers simply because on a server with several thousand people interacting with that code you are many more times likely to uncover whatever the problem is.  It's a simple enough concept.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In short -- use your whine time to play on test and help reduce buggy code frequency.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff00>Or would it be a good idea if Sony actually PAID people to test? Not wishing to run down you guys that do the testing, but it seems to me that SOE gets free labour, and no matter how good you all are they might just take things a bit more seriously if they were paying for the service.</FONT></DIV>

[Tomanak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kerrick wrote:<BR> They don't give a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] if servers are down, it doesn't make them earn any less money.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Im not sure if thats entirely accurate. The last time they had a big blow up they credited all players with 3 free days, this cost them revenues. If the servers are down too often and with increasing frequency they will lose subscribers, again lost revenues. It is a little hard to believe that the programmers at SOE are sitting there drinking coffee and eating doughnuts not giving a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] if the servers are down. Whether more testing is required or not, this statement doesnt hold water. <BR>

[Melamp]

again, if there were some regulation of uptime, I bet fires would be lit under [Removed for Content] faster to get servers up.But when you make a contract that says that you may not get to play at all and nothing can be done about it..you don't worry about it as muchand since SoE doesn't prorate subscriptions even if you do quit they have your money upfront.

[Naughtesn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Melampus wrote:<BR>They don't allow character copies to the test server because they want dedicated players on TEST<BR>Most ppl won't give up their higher lvl players to start a new one and not be able to test things that when they go live will effect their high lvl players.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Um - ok....so you have a very very small group of "dedicated" players on TEST who, with their population size could not conceivably test all the issues that a live server could..OR..have a smal group of dedicated players intermingled with a LARGE group of copied players who will be among the first to test/attempt to exploit new patches.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Something tells me that one or two (or 14) testers might - just MIGHT - have sold the stein of moggok for 2147pp...how many "dedicated" players on test now have even completed that quest - let alone tried to have sold it....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EQ1 test server was lacking for precisely the same reason - despite the common thinking that it was a successful model, buggy patches were introduced with frequency.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No testing environment is going to catch all the issues with a software update; however, let's try to avoid the <FONT color=#ff3300 size=1><bangs  his head wondering how in the world someone didn't check each of the 26 or so heritage items in game for sell back prices></FONT> obviously avoidable issues going to live.</DIV>

[Kasandria]

<blockquote><hr>Amise wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>daddus wrote:<BR><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Oh and SOE just shut down the test server as its obvious you don't actually do any testing on it, otherwise these mistakes in the patch coding (and it seems to be every time a large change is made) would be noticed whilst it was being tested on the TEST server.........</DIV><BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><DIV>To you and everyone else whining about this, stop whining and start playing on the test server. The main reason buggy code goes live is that the test server population is so small. There are too few people doing the testing. You can leave buggy code on test for a month and if it's an obscure problem chances are it might not be discovered until after it goes live to populated servers simply because on a server with several thousand people interacting with that code you are many more times likely to uncover whatever the problem is. It's a simple enough concept.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>In short -- use your whine time to play on test and help reduce buggy code frequency.</DIV><hr></blockquote>Don't be rediculous. It's their product to test. When they start paying me twenty an hour I'll consider testing their code. I'm pretty tired of people tossing the whine word around as if that makes everything the person said wrong. How about the time you just wasted here telling others how to behave. You could have spent that time testing the code since you feel some obligation towards it. The problem is that their methodology stinks. They seem to be incapable of doing thought experiments and delineating the possibilities where things might go wrong and then systematicly checking those things one at a time. In another thread someone pointed out that at least one server should be set up with the current builds on it and have the updates coming off test thrown on there first. That would prevent some of this schlock. They've made a corporate decision to not be bothered and to just ignore us when we complain. (where ARE those posts appologizing for todays downtime anyway?) Someone said we should contact the mother company and I'm starting to think that's an excellant idea.

[Jeridor]

<blockquote><hr>Proudfoot wrote:<blockquote><hr>Melampus wrote:They don't allow character copies to the test server because they want dedicated players on TESTMost ppl won't give up their higher lvl players to start a new one and not be able to test things that when they go live will effect their high lvl players.If you want dedicated players on the test server...don't charge..why pay the money to make sure things work.And beyond that...I'm not a fan of big goverment but.When your Phone company or ISP goes down there are FCC fines to those companies. I would love to see something like the BBB regulate MMORPGS, should have some sorta of quality of service clause in the agreement. Hell even products that don't do what they are described to do get fines...like most of the infomecial things.yet soe contract is more along the lines ofCan't play whenever you wantcan't play the game on any non-soe serveryou may get a virusyou can't do anything to hurt our computers/serverswhat you do in the game can't be sold because it's oursWe can change these policies anytimewe may cancel your acct without notice<hr></blockquote>My ISP (Cox) goes down every week, you don't seriously think complaining to them about it every week will make the outages stop, do you? They won't.The Test Server is doing what its supposed to be doing, its SOE that need to work on their patch order. They often patch Live servers BEFORE they patch said content to the Test Server. Its true. Many small update patches that you see on Live over given weeks are put on Test AFTERWARDS.Don't whine about players <b>trying</b> to help. That's uncalled for.Wonder if you sit back in your computer chair and critcize people who volunteer in your community. If you can even comprehend that.The Test Server isn't some peachy place either. They (devs) often announce server is going down several times a day. There is NO eta given 95% of the time. The hardware/connection is not as stable as the Live server bundle. Buying food/drink from the broker is a miracle.Its a rugged frontier that has to be crossed on the Test Server just to survive to test the content. High levels are ON the Test Server as well, thanks to the character moves SOE has done over the months. Even level 50's running around.Just because there were problems with the patch doesn't mean Test Server did fill its role. There would be 10x more problems if they hadn't used the Test Server for most of the content changes. Especially that very annoying bug that disarms you everytime you zone! ARGH<hr></blockquote>Just as an aside, you may have more options with Cox than you're aware of, and you don't know until you do some digging. Where I live (Jacksonville, FL) the major cable service provider has agreements with the city under which the city gave them permission to provide internet and cable services. Not only can one complain to the city and get action on their connectivity problems, but there are also other agreements such as a guaranteed $20 credit if the company misses a service call or shows up outside the window promised. Most people don't know about these guarantees, it so happens I do because I used to work for the company.This sort of thing doesn't so easily apply to SOE/EQII. Could you theoretically hold such entities to some kind of reasonable expectation of service? Probably if you had lots of money to blow just to make a point. However, I doubt many outside persons would see an occasional downtime of a few hours as unreasonable. No company can or will guarantee 100% uptime. Especially not in return for the small subscription fee applicable to EQII.<p>Message Edited by Jeridor on <span class=date_text>03-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:55 PM</span>

[Miral]

<DIV>Its possible I'm wrong, but I have a feeling that in two months' time, pay-to-play MMO customer service will get a lot better. If not, the genre will fail.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Miral on <span class=date_text>03-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:15 AM</span>

[Jeridor]

Why two months?

[NytarDev]

<DIV>I saw some people state that SOE got paied the same when servers are downa nd seen some that said no they dont blah blah blah.. aint it the STAFF SOE hired to do thier job that is failing? I mean there is a CEO that tell his people what he WANTS them to do but wether ot not they carry out those orders is on thier shoulders... SOE itself maynot be held DIRECTLY accountable... but indirrectly only... HOWEVER if they took away salaries and placed a share holder pay related directly to the game they are a part of then that would add incentive to the workers/developers/programs to do thier [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] jobs in the first place... but I would add that if the CEO aint firing someone for these repeated problems and making a few examples thier hired help is just gonna keep doing the same things ad earning the same checks they have been.....</DIV>

[Laven Firestart]

<DIV>Could I suggest all the people posting here go back and read what they have written.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then put this into context, this is a game.  It really doesn't matter that every so often it falls flat on it's face trying to evolve.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If it was down for days we would have the money refunded so you have lost nothing other than an oppertunity to escape reality and play a game.  Don't get me wrong I find games the most relaxing medium to entertain me after work but it really is not worth getting so upset because you cannot log in.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you want a SLA would you want SOE asking you for a minimum of twelve months subscription with a cancellation fee after that period?   SLAs are not one way, you have to commit to them as much as they have to commit to you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Bemuvdar]

<DIV>My ISP covers itself with a clause in the Terms of Service:  "We try to maintain the best uptime possible.  At times, this is not possible due to nature/acts of god, accidents which can cause damage to equipment and equipment malfunction.  In the event that there is downtime, we dedicate all resources available to get our network back up and running as soon as possible."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My electricity/gas company has similar wording.  So does my telephone company.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have never seen in any documentation from SoE that states "You can play 24/7 without the possibility of downtime."  Perhaps many of you have forgotten patch days in EQLive?  EQ2 has been nothing like that.  You can complain or even "<STRONG><EM><U>WHINE</U></EM></STRONG>" (since people seem to hate that word, when in fact it's what they are doing) that the downtime is unnecessary or excessive, myself, I understand why it is there and am happy it is.  Programming is not easy at times to fix.  I remember in college spending lots of time trying to find my bugs, only to have another student go "Hey look, that " should have been a ' to get that value correct."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Most of the time, the downtime is less than estimated.  Ive logged off in the morning at patch time, went to eat breakfast/read the paper and then log back on about an hour later, to find the servers have been up for a good 30 mins.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And one other thing to think about, perhaps some of the bugs are actually found and the test players want them to get to the live servers?  In this day and age, real life cash for pixels in game is a big business.  A bug/exploit that can be used to make insane amounts of cash fast would be worth alot of $$$.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Akacia]

<DIV>I laugh at these comments really when I see stop whining about the buggy content that goes live because there aren't enough test server players.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Reason I laugh is Sony has you testing their game for them they are making money off and YOU are paying them to do so, Sony should be testing their updates and their bugs - not the player base period. You complain there isn't enough bug testers for Sony well thats good - makes a hell of a lot of smart people out there not to pay Sony to test the game they making millions off of. They can afford and should be taking some of that chunk of coin they make off this and the millions they did from EQ and try testing the stuff they put live and on test - that alone would be a novel idea.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Instead they feel the need to have these massive patches with SO many changes and updates in them instead of doing much smaller patches and changes and they themselves TEST their change and update live servers and all would be good or at least hopefully better</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Either way I have no problem with people complaining about bugs and not playing on the test server - why should they play on it for there not to be so many bugs? Do they not pay to play this game? I bug stuff enough on a regular basis and not need to play on the test server and by the sounds of a lot on these boards some who do play on it and feedback lots they still go live</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't care for the most part about most bugs since this is a MMO and there is bound to always be bugs so thats fine, I mean hell you can go through a wall every 2 minutes still along with every single pull inside CT and they don't seem to interested to fix that in a pretty busy zone,  you would think that would be more important then a valentines quest that went live not working, but you can't have everything </DIV><p>Message Edited by Akacia on <span class=date_text>03-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:03 PM</span>