Understanding EQ economics 101

[Dortel]

<DIV> <P>This is for all the people who have questions about why things cost what they do.</P> <P> </P> <P><U>Things that put money into the economy (+)</U></P> <P>Selling items to NPC merchants<BR>HIGH level chests, (only seen 2 that had money)<BR>Money Duping hacks</P> <P>Edit: Completeing Quests(forgot about that)</P> <P> </P> <P><BR><U>Things that take money out of the economy(-)</U></P> <P>Repair of armor<BR>Buying items from NPC merchants<BR>Rent on houses<BR>Buying items off Brokers (not players directly)(includes harvested items)<BR>Boat Bells<BR>Destroying money(why I don’t know but its an option)</P> <P><U></U> </P> <P><U>Things that have no affect on the economy but just affects your personal money.</U></P> <P>Buying and selling things directly to players (includes harvested items)</P> <P> </P> <P>Now from SOE standpoint the idea is to get an initial flow of money in the game for people to trade around with to use for bartering.  Money itself has no value, it is just a medium for the buying and selling of goods.</P> <P>After the initial flow the object is to balance the top 2 so that the money coming in equals the money going out.<BR>So when they reduce the value on what crafters can sell their items to NPC merchants for, they are balancing that flow.</P> <P>If money coming into the game goes unchecked what happens is inflation and how that affects SOE is a negative.  If all the players have a lot of money the price of things players sell to each other gets very high and that’s ok because everyone in the game has a lot of money. </P> <P>But if a new player joins he is out there fighting for a few copper here few silver there and he cannot afford some of the basic good items players are selling because they are being sold for several platinum and is left at a disadvantage.</P> <P>An example is low level master skill/spell books.  They are quite regularly going for 50 + gold too several Platinum.  But how many of those low level players could actually afford that by gathering money from their own means (not given from higher level players).  After a while things on the brokers will balance in price and things will become affordable again even if you don’t have 5 plat sitting in the bank.</P> <P>I am willing to bet a few plat that the devolopers have a little screen someplace that they can look at anytime they want and see EXACTLY how much money is in the world on your server at any given time.</P> <P>If you are looking to stay ahead of the EQ economy, you can be the person selling to other players not buying.<BR></P></DIV><p>Message Edited by Dorteler on <span class=date_text>03-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:54 PM</span>

[Samnas]

<DIV>Good post Dorteler, I would just add that it is what you described that caused the huge problem with selling crafted stuff to merchants for such a large profit (in many cases).  It basically meant that everytime an item was harvested it was adding money to the economy (indirectly by a crafter turning it into finished goods that sell to merchant).   When you add bots that craft the entire time the server is up then it is a huge influx of money to the economy.  </DIV>

[Dortel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Samnas wrote:<BR> <DIV>Good post Dorteler, I would just add that it is what you described that caused the huge problem with selling crafted stuff to merchants for such a large profit (in many cases).  It basically meant that everytime an item was harvested it was adding money to the economy (indirectly by a crafter turning it into finished goods that sell to merchant).   When you add bots that craft the entire time the server is up then it is a huge influx of money to the economy.  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Actully bots that harvest dont add money to the economy, bots that craft do.  Bots that harvest just allow the botter(if thats a word) to sell stuff to crafters at mass quanities ,beating out the competition by making it not worth the average players time to harvest.

[Samnas]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dorteler wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Samnas wrote:<BR> <DIV>Good post Dorteler, I would just add that it is what you described that caused the huge problem with selling crafted stuff to merchants for such a large profit (in many cases).  It basically meant that everytime an item was harvested it was adding money to the economy (indirectly by a crafter turning it into finished goods that sell to merchant).   When you add bots that craft the entire time the server is up then it is a huge influx of money to the economy.  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Actully bots that harvest dont add money to the economy, bots that craft do.  Bots that harvest just allow the botter(if thats a word) to sell stuff to crafters at mass quanities ,beating out the competition by making it not worth the average players time to harvest.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>That is almost EXACTLY what I said.  I will quote myself lol.  </P> <P>      "It basically meant that everytime an item was harvested it was adding money to the economy (indirectly by a crafter turning it into finished goods that sell to   merchant).   "</P> <P>To translate what I said is harvestable items were INDIRECTLY adding money to the economy by being turned into finished goods by a CRAFTER.  Those bots that harvest and those that craft cause the same harm to the economy just one is direct and one is indirect.</P> <P>*EDIT*  Just to clarify.  Crafting items and selling to players does not add money to the economy.  Crafting items and selling to vendor for a profit does add money to the economy. *END EDIT*</P><p>Message Edited by Samnas on <span class=date_text>03-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:26 PM</span>

[Dortel]

<DIV>Ok maybe I was just misunderstanding you because my understanding of it would be this...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bots go out and harvest 5000 items per day.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>players and bots only make 1000 items a day.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It doesnt matter how many more items you harvest,  6k 7k,10k 100k.  Your still only adding 1000 sellable items a day to the server and crafters are the only ones that are actully bringing money into the economy, not the harvesters.</DIV>

[JarredDarque]

<DIV>you forgot onemajor source of money flowing into the gaem,  quests.  that is a MAJOR influx of money.</DIV>

[IronHorse]

<DIV>Is it, as far as I can tell most quests give out little or no cash, your much better off just doing wholesaler tasks. </DIV> <DIV>   And for lvl 30 Templer that sux.</DIV> <DIV>   Do quest that takes 4 hours, and get 3s or to harvesting task in tier3 area that gets you 48s. Hmmmmmmm I not what I would choose.</DIV> <DIV>   Most Quests dont import cahs into the game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Ceruline]

<DIV>Good post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd like to add a point or two:  After the initial influx of wealth, the point is NOT to keep the aggregate wealth on the server constant.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Instead, the point is to maintain per character wealth at reasonable levels, given the experience levels of the population.  You don't want the same aggregate wealth on a server whose average level is 20 that you do for an average level of 40, after all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The biggest point is to keep the rate of wealth increase in line with the rate of level increase.  This is actually where being able to turn off experience becomes a problem.  It enables characters to accumulate wealth without accumulating experience (Which would have increased their expected wealth level) and hence contributes to unbalancing the economy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As time goes by, it's inevitable that there is some degree of aggregate wealth increase (Due to a continually increasing average level).  What needs to occur though is for the amount of wealth that an average Level xx character has to stay relatively constant over time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm surprised that no game has used some sort of supply and demand model for determining NPC merchant prices in an effort to control the economy.  ie: as player wealth rises, NPCs sell goods higher, and buy them more cheaply.  If player wealth falls, the inverse happens.   Something like that would give a great deal more economic control to the designers (And, as prices would be constantly changing anyway, pricing adjustments could be gradual and market driven, and hence much easier for players to accept)</DIV>

[Ceruline]

<DIV>Crafters, in general, do not bring significant money into the economy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only way that a crafter brings money into the economy is through Society tasks.  (Wholesaler tasks are a different matter.  I consider them to be available to all characters, and they certainly are a significant source of wealth introduction)  Generally speaking, these tasks are no longer a major source of wealth introduction (Although they used to be)  If they still are, then the design needs to be tweaked so that it is always more lucrative for the crafter to sell to another player than for him or her to use goods for tasks.  In most cases, this should involve reevaluating the utility provided to the consumer by the item.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for player transactions:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When a crafter makes an item and sells it to another player, wealth is simply redistributed.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here is the money flow.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Crafter:</DIV> <DIV>Wealth outflow to other character for raw materials (Optional) <->  Wealth inflow for harvester</DIV> <DIV>Wealth outflow to NPC merchant for fuel and other bought components <-> Eventual wealth inflow to purchaser upon sellback, or net wealth outflow on the purchase of consumables</DIV> <DIV>Wealth inflow from sale of item <-> wealth outflow from purchaser of item</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Harvester: (Optional)</DIV> <DIV>Wealth inflow from Crafter purchase of materials</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Purchaser:</DIV> <DIV>Wealth outflow for initial purchase of item</DIV> <DIV>Wealth inflow on NPC sellback of durable goods (Equal to net fuel costs)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>NPC merchant:</DIV> <DIV>Wealth in on purchase of fuels</DIV> <DIV>Wealth out on resale of final item (Equal to fuel purchase cost)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For durable items, this is a closed system.  No wealth is introduced or taken out of the system.  The wealth will be redistributed, with some of the purchasers wealth going to the crafter, and a portion of that going to the harvester, if applicable.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For consumables, this is a net money sink, equal to the fuel costs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The closest argument I can see for player transactions being more than a zero sum game is that the items the consumer acquires may enable him or her to increase future wealth generation, however, this gain is in line with the general increase of wealth level that needs to follow alongside character advancement.</DIV>

[WuphonsReach]

One of the things I like in the above posts (and have submitted various flavors of it via /feedback) is the idea of dynamic 'greedy' merchants. Especially the ones out in the middle of nowhere.For example, selling to the NPC. Let's assume that item X has a maximum sell-back price of Y. The only time you would get Y for an item is if the vendor is in an extremely generous mode. Most of the time, you'd only get (Y * 0.80). Even greedier vendors might even shaft you further by only giving you (Y * 0.33).Buying items off the merchant is similar. There is an optimal price, Z, which you'll only ever get if the vendor is generous. Usually you'll get charged a price of (Z / 0.80), with super super greedy merchants charging as much as (Z / 0.33).Merchants in EQ2 already follow the above dynamic. Society vendors generally offer the best price, while vendors out in the wilderness offer worse prices.Now for the dynamic bit... merchants in locations like the Commonlands/Antonica crossroads, the docks in Nek/TS, the docks in Zek/EL would, by default, be slightly greedier then normal. However, if their average daily sales for the previous week are over some amount, they would get even greedier at the start of the next Norrathian day.After all, if the players are buying... then the argument is that prices aren't high enough.Some vendors should probably be immune... such as society vendors (due to lock-in, where it's not always trivial to change societies) and home city merchants. And once you have immune vendors... nobody is going to use the greedier merchants in a particular city zone.So immune vendors need to be located far enough away from dynamic vendors so that it's worth the convenience (location location location!) of dealing with a greedier merchant.One thing I miss from EQ1 is that none of the vendors in EQ2 seem to give you better/worse prices based on your faction.

[Dortel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <DIV>I'd like to add a point or two:  After the initial influx of wealth, the point is NOT to keep the aggregate wealth on the server constant.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Instead, the point is to maintain per character wealth at reasonable levels, given the experience levels of the population.  You don't want the same aggregate wealth on a server whose average level is 20 that you do for an average level of 40, after all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Great add.<BR>

[Eal]

<DIV>           I think what you are talking about is inflation and deflation. I am assuming from the first line in your Post. You are correct in saying that Money itself has no value since it is not backed by anything. Its just a medium for bartering. So what constitutes what 1gp is worth? Time is the only resource in this game that is actualy worth anything. This is how you come to the actual value of gold. Its just a representation of time put in.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>         The only problem with this model are the money sinks which you have noted. So much for trickle down economics.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>    </DIV><p>Message Edited by Ealix on <span class=date_text>03-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:19 PM</span>

[Narrowisthepath]

<DIV>The original post correctly identifies the flow of money in the game but the conclusons reached are erronious.  In city of heros money is very plentiful to the point that as long as you dont change a custume every few minutes, you always have plenty of money to buy maximum upgrades.  Guess what, no one in COH is complaining about too much money.  Markets will adjust as needed without tampering as long as the rules dont change once per week as has been the case. Low level items for low level toons will never cost alot because they cant afford them. High level toons dont give a rip what is going on below them. No level 50 is going to start buying up pristine boiled tunics to jack the price because they are too plentiful and will never be worth the trouble. There are also plentiful quests to equip fully for no money so low toons dont need much cash.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now for the notion that tons of cash is flowing in by quests, are you all insane?  I spent 3 hours on a blue con quest the other day to recieve a whopping 7 silver, for the love of pete what game are you people playing. 3 hours-7 silver this is your idea of plenty of cash for time spent, this was after the so called increase in quest awards went into effect. 7 silver doesnt buy a decent lunch in the game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am very pleased that I leveled a 50 crafter prior to all the nerfing that went on so i have some plat that i am now hoarding for the day i get into tier5 and need every copper of it to get half equiped, then spend months gathering rares to finish equiping, and this is soe's idea of fun.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My idea of fun-plenty of money to get what i want, time to adventure not gather, and real reward for my massive time commitment to this game.</DIV>

[Dortel]

<DIV>CoH economics are completely different than EQ2, </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you were to take the CoH approch here you would destroy the economy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>CoH has extremely little to 0  player to player transactions.  Millions of influense could be made in a short amout of time at high levels on CoH and that was used to max out your enhancements. They mostly bought off the abundance of npc merchants and sold back to NPC merchants in droves.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EQ2 has a player drivin economy though where a 50% or more of a players items are often bought from other players.  Rare crafted armor, high quality food, Master and adept 3 spells.  Those all cost alot of money and if you had rampid inflation here where everyone had 1000's of platium sitting in thier accounts new players entering the game would not be able to afford most of the items in the game.</DIV>