Offline Selling...

[Havlen]

I understand the theory of requiring online selling to improve the economy, but allowing only online selling has the side effect of penalizing people that cannot keep their character on for long periods of time. I would like to see a system of offline selling where a player can leave a limited number of items (1-3) in a special merchant with perhaps a 40% markup so that those people cannot leave their computer on all of the time or signed in all of the time can still sell that item worth 50gp instead of having to sell it to a merchant for 1 gp.

[Yodoo]

<DIV>Agreed, nice post.</DIV>

[Samnas]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Havlen wrote:<BR>I understand the theory of requiring online selling to improve the economy, but allowing only online selling has the side effect of penalizing people that cannot keep their character on for long periods of time. <BR><BR>I would like to see a system of offline selling where a player can leave a limited number of items (1-3) in a special merchant with perhaps a 40% markup so that those people cannot leave their computer on all of the time or signed in all of the time can still sell that item worth 50gp instead of having to sell it to a merchant for 1 gp.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> They have not been too specific, but SOE has posted they are working on a system that allows people to sell while offline. 

[Coops1]

<DIV>I understand the theory of requiring online selling to improve the economy, but allowing only online selling has the side effect of penalizing people that cannot keep their character on for long periods of time. <BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>haha, Have you seen the EQ2 economy....it is whacky. Offline selling would be a great idea.</DIV>

[Bodaciu]

<DIV>I for one would hate to see Off-line selling, UNLESS it was an extremely limited number of items (3-5) at a higher Broker cost to the seller, not the buyer.</DIV>

[Samnas]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bodaciuos wrote:<BR> <DIV>I for one would hate to see Off-line selling, UNLESS it was an extremely limited number of items (3-5) at a higher Broker cost to the seller, not the buyer.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Why would you hate to see it?  I know some people are opposed to it I am just curious if I am missing something.  </P> <P>The current system punishes anyone who shares a PC with someone (siblings, husband, etc).  People who have their own PC and the ability to stay logged onto EQ all the time are at a huge advantage.  </P> <P>Offline selling would also be a tremendous help in stopping the drastic fluctuations in prices that depend on the time you play.  For example I sell resources and I can sell them for a lot more money through the morning and into the afternoon than I can sell them for in the evening.  People who play in the day should not be punished with higher prices (assuming they are buyers) just because not enough people have logged on their vendors yet.</P> <P>My thoughts anyway.  Would like to hear what bad things come from selling off-line that people would be against?</P>

[Havlen]

<DIV>The idea of restricting it to online only selling is to reduce the number of items available on brokers at any specific time.  It's supply and demand -- it cuts the suppy down so that the prices will be higher which, in turn, takes more gold out of the economy (through broker prices) and makes crafting a little more valuable (as well as any other item).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, it does all of this at the expense of those who cannot keep their character logged on for long periods of time unattended.  I don't think the benefit is worth penalizing a huge sect of people myself.  If they are going to continue it, though, I think the least they could do is allow a limited number of items to be sold offline so that those that cannot keep their computers logged in all the time aren't being severely shorted in the gold department.</DIV>

[Vurin]

I don't mind online selling. I just want online selling at places other than my bloody house.

[Spaceweed]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vurin wrote:<BR>I don't mind online selling. I just want online selling at places other than my bloody house.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I wonder if they could make use of the house vaults?</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe you could use one of the boxes available in your room as a store - a player could access that box just by right clicking in the normal way on the relevant inn room.  There would be the option of seeing the contents of the box of the particular char, instead of entering the room, as it doesn't actually exist if you aren't in it <offline or adventuring/crafting>.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>You would select the box of the relevant char from the normal drop down menu, which would have been activated by the player as he left the room/game.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>I don't know what the ramifications concerning coding are in all this, but it would certainly cut down on all the instances created by online selling whilst afk.  Other games have managed this, and I would love to hear what the supposed drawbacks to an offline selling system are.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV>

[Bodaciu]

<P><BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Samnas wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>My thoughts anyway.  Would like to hear what bad things come from selling off-line that people would be against?</BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Sure, no problem.  We all broker to get the most coin we can from an item.  people who want to move stuff fast, set a price lower than the market at that time.  Others hold onto items like luggage at a price they think it is worth.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I love the fact, that I can search the brokers many, many times a session, and the market changes drastically.  There has even been times, when listed items change from my general search, to s specific search.  If I really visit the broker a lot during a crafting session (right down stairs), I can pick up items almost as fast as they were listed.  Important to a crafter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The option that people are looking for seems to be an auction system, where you could sell your items for a specified amount of time, sort of like an auction system.  This is pretty much the only way it could happen.  In an auction based system (based on another SOE game-EQoA)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <UL> <LI>Players list an item setting a min/max price</LI> <LI>The Auctioneer charges a fee for listing this item (1%)</LI> <LI>The buyer also pays a fee for buying the item (1%)</LI> <LI>There is a buy-it-now feature, that is by default, the max selling point</LI></UL> <P>Problems with this sytem. (and remember, these are player created issues, that do happen, no way to limit that)</P> <UL> <LI>The market is suddenly flooded with items.  Instead of 50 (made up number by me) brokering at a given time (I have no idea what the actual number is).  When the market is flooded, prices drop dramatically.  SOunds great, but remember, that hard earned/crafted item that you are trying to sell, is also flooded with alike pieces, so you get little value for your goods.</LI> <LI>The market does not change.  For that set amount of time, the same items are listed over and over.  </LI> <LI>Since there is so many items, we now have to scan though 20 pages of stuff instead of 2-3 pages of specific stuff.  The current "Search Broker system" does not allow for general, solid searches, unless you already know the name of any item.</LI> <LI>Common items get listed a million times.  You would be surprised at what people list to auction with no concern if it would sell or not.  In EQoA, even though we had a 40 slot limit in bank space (each Auctioned item took up a bank slot), you would see pages of "rat tails" which sold to the merchant for 5 tunar (equal to about 1 copper under the screwy EQoA economy created by crafting).  If you are looking for a "Rat" based armor set, you would have to skim though all the rats tails.</LI> <LI>The buy-it-now options were always set for silly amounts.  Very rarely would someone set a fair price.  Due to this, those items stayed on the market for the run of the auction, until a flurry of auctions in the final 10 minutes of the auction.  Then, you were competing against other players, and server lag if you 1 copper bid higher went though before it closed.</LI> <LI>Very Hard to get what you are looking for without having to face the "buy-it-now cost.  Lets take EQ2 Tea Leaves for example.  The going T4 price is around 3s-5s.  Sometimes, if you catch it right, someone sells the same item for 50c buy-out or less.  They might onl;y have 5 of them, and they want to move them.  Now, they will set 50c min-10s max.  They want max value they can get.  So, your possibility of finding a deal is out the window.</LI></UL> <P>As it applies to current EQ2 gaming set-up</P> <UL> <LI>Currently, the Brokers charge 20% in city, and 40% out of city.  Auction could charge these prices too, but with the set-up, people would want to save that kick, especially with Buy-it-now prices so high.</LI> <LI>One of the advantages we have, is to goto the person's room, and buy it.  Saving the fee.  This "role-playing" aspect would be removed.  This is important to some, especially to those who decorate theirs rooms accordingly.</LI></UL> <P>So, we take a look at some other systems. (I did not personally participate in these games, so my info might be skewed of these systems as I read the boards a lot, and get the "gist" of how other MMoRPGs deal with a common system)</P> <UL> <LI>SWG had a system where you could merhcant like here, but choose a very, few selcted items to a "Hired Hand" to sell while you were not there.  Seems like a good way to appease both sides, with out flooding the system IMO</LI> <LI>Pure "have to be there" auction systems.  Think FFXI and EQLive? had this.  Even more limiting than this is.</LI></UL> <P>I could support a "in-town" option based on your House Vaults.  You could repair, decorate, craft, run errands all in town, while still brokering.  But, does not solve the off-line thing.</P> <P> </P> <P>This turned into a longer post than I thought (server's down anyways:smileymad:,) so in a general wrap-up.  Offline selling floods the market, reduces prices, and buy-it-now options cancel the reduced prices to the point of slower moving items, and a lot more to be bought.  The market comes to a stand still, except for the rare items.  The day to day items, and harvested materials just "spam" the market.</P> <P> </P> <P>Again, this is only my opinion, and it could be way off.  Feel free to fight for what you want, and I will fight for what I want.  That is the best part of these boards, to discuss "dream changes", and how others feel about it.  I am not always right:smileywink:</P>

[NytarDev]

<DIV>Seriously, I would like to see off and online sales get s boost.. the game already has to remember what you have in bank and house vaults.. I would (if SOE) inplemement one (or two) slot(s) for a player to be able to put a container for sellables, as you place the item into tha box for sale it will ask you how much you would like to sell the item for charge the seller 10% of that as a brokerage fee un refundable then ask *are you sure you wish to place this item on the brokerage for X pp/gp/sp/cp at a broker cost of X pp/gp/sp/cp (non refundable)?* it would limit the number of people asking stupid amounts to have thier stuff just not sell at stupid prices (i.e. the guy on our server that likes to put up canine saliva at 9999pp99gp99sp99cp.) this would leave option to craft and sell at the same time without having to duel box or hydra. also would allow adventures to adventure as well as letting those in school work or sharing a PC to make the same coin as the rest. just my 2cp worth.... well guess you could say my 45 bucks a month worth =P</DIV>

[Samnas]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bodaciuos wrote:<BR> <P><BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Samnas wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>My thoughts anyway.  Would like to hear what bad things come from selling off-line that people would be against?</BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Sure, no problem.  We all broker to get the most coin we can from an item.  people who want to move stuff fast, set a price lower than the market at that time.  Others hold onto items like luggage at a price they think it is worth.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I love the fact, that I can search the brokers many, many times a session, and the market changes drastically.  There has even been times, when listed items change from my general search, to s specific search.  If I really visit the broker a lot during a crafting session (right down stairs), I can pick up items almost as fast as they were listed.  Important to a crafter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The option that people are looking for seems to be an auction system, where you could sell your items for a specified amount of time, sort of like an auction system.  This is pretty much the only way it could happen.  In an auction based system (based on another SOE game-EQoA)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <UL> <LI>Players list an item setting a min/max price</LI> <LI>The Auctioneer charges a fee for listing this item (1%)</LI> <LI>The buyer also pays a fee for buying the item (1%)</LI> <LI>There is a buy-it-now feature, that is by default, the max selling point</LI></UL> <P>Problems with this sytem. (and remember, these are player created issues, that do happen, no way to limit that)</P> <UL> <LI>The market is suddenly flooded with items.  Instead of 50 (made up number by me) brokering at a given time (I have no idea what the actual number is).  When the market is flooded, prices drop dramatically.  SOunds great, but remember, that hard earned/crafted item that you are trying to sell, is also flooded with alike pieces, so you get little value for your goods.</LI> <LI>The market does not change.  For that set amount of time, the same items are listed over and over.  </LI> <LI>Since there is so many items, we now have to scan though 20 pages of stuff instead of 2-3 pages of specific stuff.  The current "Search Broker system" does not allow for general, solid searches, unless you already know the name of any item.</LI> <LI>Common items get listed a million times.  You would be surprised at what people list to auction with no concern if it would sell or not.  In EQoA, even though we had a 40 slot limit in bank space (each Auctioned item took up a bank slot), you would see pages of "rat tails" which sold to the merchant for 5 tunar (equal to about 1 copper under the screwy EQoA economy created by crafting).  If you are looking for a "Rat" based armor set, you would have to skim though all the rats tails.</LI> <LI>The buy-it-now options were always set for silly amounts.  Very rarely would someone set a fair price.  Due to this, those items stayed on the market for the run of the auction, until a flurry of auctions in the final 10 minutes of the auction.  Then, you were competing against other players, and server lag if you 1 copper bid higher went though before it closed.</LI> <LI>Very Hard to get what you are looking for without having to face the "buy-it-now cost.  Lets take EQ2 Tea Leaves for example.  The going T4 price is around 3s-5s.  Sometimes, if you catch it right, someone sells the same item for 50c buy-out or less.  They might onl;y have 5 of them, and they want to move them.  Now, they will set 50c min-10s max.  They want max value they can get.  So, your possibility of finding a deal is out the window.</LI></UL> <P>As it applies to current EQ2 gaming set-up</P> <UL> <LI>Currently, the Brokers charge 20% in city, and 40% out of city.  Auction could charge these prices too, but with the set-up, people would want to save that kick, especially with Buy-it-now prices so high.</LI> <LI>One of the advantages we have, is to goto the person's room, and buy it.  Saving the fee.  This "role-playing" aspect would be removed.  This is important to some, especially to those who decorate theirs rooms accordingly.</LI></UL> <P>So, we take a look at some other systems. (I did not personally participate in these games, so my info might be skewed of these systems as I read the boards a lot, and get the "gist" of how other MMoRPGs deal with a common system)</P> <UL> <LI>SWG had a system where you could merhcant like here, but choose a very, few selcted items to a "Hired Hand" to sell while you were not there.  Seems like a good way to appease both sides, with out flooding the system IMO</LI> <LI>Pure "have to be there" auction systems.  Think FFXI and EQLive? had this.  Even more limiting than this is.</LI></UL> <P>I could support a "in-town" option based on your House Vaults.  You could repair, decorate, craft, run errands all in town, while still brokering.  But, does not solve the off-line thing.</P> <P> </P> <P>This turned into a longer post than I thought (server's down anyways:smileymad:,) so in a general wrap-up.  Offline selling floods the market, reduces prices, and buy-it-now options cancel the reduced prices to the point of slower moving items, and a lot more to be bought.  The market comes to a stand still, except for the rare items.  The day to day items, and harvested materials just "spam" the market.</P> <P> </P> <P>Again, this is only my opinion, and it could be way off.  Feel free to fight for what you want, and I will fight for what I want.  That is the best part of these boards, to discuss "dream changes", and how others feel about it.  I am not always right:smileywink:</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>So the way the market is not it really benefits you because you said you are a crafter and can buy something almost as soon as it hits the broker, but what about people who play odd hours like very early morning and the only thing on the broker is often for ridiculous amounts.  I do not think they should be punished because they play at off-peak hours (peak in terms of how many vendors online).  </P> <P>I fail to see the fault with having off-line selling just cause it lowers the price of items based on supply/demand.  The current system just fools supply/demand by keeping supply artifically low at certian points in the day.  That is not supply/demand.  Now I would agree they need a system where crafters items are in demand, but not a system they are only in reasonable demand if you are online at a very specific time. </P> <P>Two seperate issues in my opinion and the biggest impact I see would be to the prices of harvested items would likely go down in price.  Thats not a bad thing in my opinion.  As soon as it is not profitable to harvest them people will stop harvesting and a balance will be created... as true supply/demand would work... again rather than just giving an advantage to people who can be logged on to a pc all day long.</P> <P>By the way I am one of those who is logged on all day and selling resources during the day I make great money... at night none of mine sell.  Dont think this is fair or the way the game should work though just cause it gives me an advantage due to my playtime.</P>

[Baltimore]

<DIV>Before EQ2 came out I was an avid player of FFXI - being that I have been an avid FF fan since there very first one was released.  IMHO FFXI had the best market system of any MMO game I've seen.  There was a standalone auction house in all the major cities.  A player would pay a fee to put items up for sale there and then buyers would come by and put in bids for the item.  You couldn't tell what the seller had set the price at, but could only check what the last ten items had been bought for.  This all worked whether the seller was online or not.</DIV>

[Lonw]

Offline selling may also remove the "urgent" need to put patch times in the middle of my playing time (8pm). US entrepeneurs now have ample time to put their sell bots up before heading off to work.With most items now attunable, there is a huge money exit from the economy. The economy should not be controlled by artificial means like forcing people to be online to sell. It should not be grossly unfair to people who can not have their PC's dedicated to selling while others (esp the plat sellers who's job it is to make sure they are selling) have greater access to the customer base, simply by having less restrictions on their Pc's time.It's an arbitrary restriction. It is unfair.Online selling is a huge problem from casuals. Plat sellers, though, love the forced lack of competition.

[Aegori]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Samnas wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Havlen wrote:<BR>I understand the theory of requiring online selling to improve the economy, but allowing only online selling has the side effect of penalizing people that cannot keep their character on for long periods of time. <BR><BR>I would like to see a system of offline selling where a player can leave a limited number of items (1-3) in a special merchant with perhaps a 40% markup so that those people cannot leave their computer on all of the time or signed in all of the time can still sell that item worth 50gp instead of having to sell it to a merchant for 1 gp.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> They have not been too specific, but SOE has posted they are working on a system that allows people to sell while offline. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>I believe this is actually incorrect. The system they're looking into is a way for players to sell while they are online, regardless of where they are (i would assume kinda like FFXI has). They are still opposed to offline selling (unless their stance has changed very recently). Tho i do miss a dev post here and there... if ya could link your source, that would be great <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>-Aeg</P>

[Weesta]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bodaciuos wrote:<BR> <DIV>I for one would hate to see Off-line selling, UNLESS it was an extremely limited number of items (3-5) at a higher Broker cost to the seller, not the buyer.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Every other game has offline selling, why should this one be different? Why not just charge the seller a one time fee to list the product, like 25c or something? Nobody is re-inventing the wheel here with offline selling. I just dont understand why some people are against it or want to limit it to just a few items.....</P> <P>just my two copper</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[darasaild]

in ultima online you could "hire a merchant" to sell your goods in your house. basicaly you buy an npc and controll him.. pay him (or her) a salary based on his or her level(or how much goods they can handle) and when you are offline they are still in your house selling. another thing that would be good is a way to sell sepcificaly to one person.. a pick up point.. your friend could order a piece of gear and your merchant could be programed by you, only to sell that item to your friend for a certain predetermined price. offline selling will change the economy drasticaly, drastic changes in the economy are what people are complaning about. im for the idea if its tested well. and remember the test server dosnt have as many players as the live servers so there will always be diffrences between test and live when it comes to the economy.you can change the stats on a piece of armor in test and when it goes live , its gonna have pretty much the same effect on live as test, but the only way to test the econome is to do it, then tweak things up or down.

[Namil]

<DIV>I usually find that offline selling is only objected by the people with money or that charge a gold for something that would only sell to a vendor for 5s. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Would love to be able to buy different levels of vendors to place in my house/room that you would have to pay a weekly salary. The more expensive the vendor the more stuff they can sell. Something like that anyway.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EQ's view on economy has always blown me away. Somehow it just never made sense to me to create tons of money sinks. It seems to me they are just compensating for placing too much money in the game to begin with. In EQ1 things go for 10's of thousands of platinum pieces. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(The rest is IMO)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EQ2's economy is [Removed for Content], wether through exploits or for whatever reason people already have alot of platinum pieces, that are willing to pay 10 - 50 gold for a vendor sold 3s item just cause it is rare or at the time they outleveled the mob for it. Some people are charging well over 500% markup on what it cost them to actually make the items. I think an offline way to sell will reduce the prices, because as of now it seems everyone is just making their own stuff and not bying from others. Guilds are supplying themselves and so on. Killing the economy or lack there of even more. Players should be bying stuff from players - not relying on drops or making an alt just so they can have food or something. Player made stuff is weak at best players dont want to by many of the things other players make. Why bother? by the time you get to almost 40 your getting drops for level 40+ that are better then anything player made. Drops are forever and for many that I see on my server 50 is coming closer and at 50 your just waiting for that master chest drop anyway and not buying a thing!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wait and see in 4/5 months if something is not changed - weapons crafters, Armor crafters, carpenters and tailors will all be out of work. Why? cause the world is already flooded with drops and people are saving them for their lower level alts. Why by player made stuff when drops are so much better?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Best economy and vedor system IMO I ever saw was in Horizons, to bad the rest of the game was bleh. lol</DIV>

[CloakV]

You're all going to hate me for saying this but why not have the same auction system as WOW?My reasoning why they don't.Best time to sell stuff is during peak play times. However, thats also when i want to play. So instead i have to leave my char logged on overnight selling once i've finished playing. The only way round this is to have two accounts one of which is just a merchant account. The cynical might say that SONY have done this on purpose knowing that some people will buy two accounts just to do this.Lets face it they've got all the experience from running auction systems on SWG, its not like its too difficult for them to have put in. Two possible options.1. Using brokers to sell stuff paying a small fee for the process, like the SWG bazarr system. 2. How about being able to purchase an npc merchant that stands in your room. (ultima style or again the vendors from SWG) The only reason i can see for not having either of these solutions is the fact that they will loose money from pure merchant accounts.

[GoNom]

<DIV>I didn't read anything in the post I know I'm a dink, but wanted to throw out a simple idea that might work, and may be easy to implement, instead of forcing you to be in your house selling, what if there we're a quest that would allow you to employ a merchant to sell your goods while your out crafting/adventuing etc...  He/she would stay in your house and keep items up for sale while your not there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe it costs you X amount of Silver/Gold whatever per hour they are used, would be a fair tradeoff for the current system.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Zichius]

<DIV>Nice post see here what i think <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=general_tradeskill&message.id=52461" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=general_tradeskill&message.id=52461</A></DIV>

[Laven Firestart]

<DIV>I would love to see an offline option for selling.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have dial up, I live in a village that will never get broadband.  I can only dial up after 6pm and get kicked off after three hours.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All this means the only way I can sell is not to play the game, I like to come home from work and play my character.  However, I now have so much to sell that tonight I am going to have to go home, load everquest, go into merchant mode and then watch television for three hours.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I then log off and go to bed, having not played the game at all.  Not really my idea of fun, especially as during those three hours everyone will be out XPing and not buying on the broker so this will be the pattern of my gaming for a few days.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please, please, please bring in offline selling.</DIV>

[Spaceweed]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aegorian wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Samnas wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Havlen wrote:<BR>I understand the theory of requiring online selling to improve the economy, but allowing only online selling has the side effect of penalizing people that cannot keep their character on for long periods of time. <BR><BR>I would like to see a system of offline selling where a player can leave a limited number of items (1-3) in a special merchant with perhaps a 40% markup so that those people cannot leave their computer on all of the time or signed in all of the time can still sell that item worth 50gp instead of having to sell it to a merchant for 1 gp.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> They have not been too specific, but SOE has posted they are working on a system that allows people to sell while offline. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>I believe this is actually incorrect. The system they're looking into is a way for players to sell while they are online, regardless of where they are (i would assume kinda like FFXI has). They are still opposed to offline selling (unless their stance has changed very recently). Tho i do miss a dev post here and there... if ya could link your source, that would be great <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>-Aeg</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>If that is correct - and obviously we don't know it is - then I would have to question SOE's motives for making it so.</P> <P>My first question would be 'why?'  Is there some money making excercise in keeping players logged on 24 hrs a day - for eg, payments from ISP's who have limited megabyte downloads per month?</P> <P>Just a thought :smileywink:</P>

[Weesta]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>My first question would be 'why?'  Is there some money making excercise in keeping players logged on 24 hrs a day - for eg, payments from ISP's who have limited megabyte downloads per month?</P> <P>Just a thought :smileywink:</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I think SOE is in with the electric company <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <BR>

[Stili]

<DIV>They want Economy. They should do it like the Wow Auction system It is the best type of sytem I have seen in a online game for selling stuff. There is not a set price or anything. It is a Auction like Ebay. Which is a Multimillion Corp now.....</DIV>

[Samnas]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Spaceweed wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aegorian wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Samnas wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Havlen wrote:<BR>I understand the theory of requiring online selling to improve the economy, but allowing only online selling has the side effect of penalizing people that cannot keep their character on for long periods of time. <BR><BR>I would like to see a system of offline selling where a player can leave a limited number of items (1-3) in a special merchant with perhaps a 40% markup so that those people cannot leave their computer on all of the time or signed in all of the time can still sell that item worth 50gp instead of having to sell it to a merchant for 1 gp.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> They have not been too specific, but SOE has posted they are working on a system that allows people to sell while offline. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>I believe this is actually incorrect. The system they're looking into is a way for players to sell while they are online, regardless of where they are (i would assume kinda like FFXI has). They are still opposed to offline selling (unless their stance has changed very recently). Tho i do miss a dev post here and there... if ya could link your source, that would be great <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>-Aeg</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>If that is correct - and obviously we don't know it is - then I would have to question SOE's motives for making it so.</P> <P>My first question would be 'why?'  Is there some money making excercise in keeping players logged on 24 hrs a day - for eg, payments from ISP's who have limited megabyte downloads per month?</P> <P>Just a thought :smileywink:</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I am actually pretty sure SOE is the power behind global warming and the war in Iraq in addition to their conspiracy to keep us logged on all day to make money from ISP <DIV>.</FONT></DIV>

[roza]

<DIV>a good way to keep the econmy alive with offline selling would be to minimize your items auctioned.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>instead of having a unlimited ammount of item</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>limit it to 5 or something but let the character sell offline :] </DIV>

[roza]

<DIV>and i relized just now that that idea has been posted before <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </DIV>

[Bodaciu]

<DIV>I am sure the server "daily downtime" was not configured into the system.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know they are working on the leaks, but we are into 2+ years of development, and 5th month of release now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The current system may hurt some people, but I like it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If this merchant system creates a 'magical value' to some goods, then so be it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With the time shifting to 4AM PST, many more people now benefit.  If east coasters can turn on their merchant system before work/school, then everyone benefits.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do feel for the European Servers if they are dropped at the same times as the American Servers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can fully support a 3-5 max item, off-line selling options, for a nominal fee.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Optional thoughts:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <UL> <LI>25c is not going to cut it.  I think 50% of the in-town vendor value per listing (listing lasts 72 hours) is fair. This gives it a high listing value, but progresses as you level. </LI></UL> <UL> <LI>Maybe even 30% charge to in-town buyer (from broker), 60% to outa town broker, and 15% charge to the seller.  </LI> <LI>There needs to be some different between the reward/risk of off-line selling vs those who can do it on-line.</LI> <LI>The number of items also has to be very limited.  Under-cutters are the worst.</LI></UL>

[Bodaciu]

<DIV>Oh, and if you want off-line selling, then it has to be limited to just OFF-LINE, not list products on char 1, and go play char 2.  You account would have to be totally logged out of the game</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This could really get out of hand with one player able to list 200+ items x's 8.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ewwww, imagine the jammed markets with people doing this, and they will...........</DIV>

[Speak]

<DIV>You know folks there is an auction channel.  You can be out hunting and hawk your items via /auction <name, price>.</DIV>

[Taki]

Yes, a good friend and guildmate has an ISP in the Uk that boots him after a very short period of "inactivity". Makes it near impossible for him to sell his goods as a crafter.

[yes4]

<DIV>100% agree with initial post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I keep saying this... we need offline brokers. Sony has more chance of losing customers over this. Why? </DIV> <DIV>- Because it affects the economy</DIV> <DIV>- Because hardcore players will be playing something else while selling... and they may be thinking "why do I keep my subcription with Sony since I spend most of my time, playing game X instead?"</DIV><p>Message Edited by yes4me on <span class=date_text>03-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:58 PM</span>

[roza]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bodaciuos wrote:<BR> <DIV>Oh, and if you want off-line selling, then it has to be limited to just OFF-LINE, not list products on char 1, and go play char 2.  You account would have to be totally logged out of the game</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This could really get out of hand with one player able to list 200+ items x's 8.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ewwww, imagine the jammed markets with people doing this, and they will...........</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>aye i completly agree with that..  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Dimidri]

<DIV>I think it should be the opposite. Items can only be on sale while you are online, just regardless of where you are.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Currently, on Oggok, more things need to be sold. There really isn't much to buy in Freeport because noone sells >_<</DIV>

[roza]

<DIV>yeah lol im oggok, not much to buy at all.. :[ </DIV>

[Davish_Darkwolf]

<DIV>To force people to stand in a room AFK just to sell their items is the worst "feature" in EQ2.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To force people to do this is to:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Force people to PAY more electricity bills</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Force people with Dial-Up connections or "pay/per use"   to PAY more connection time</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Force people to WEAR DOWN their computer's life rate faster</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Force my pets to hear the computer fans sound  all night long  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why the hell are people FORCED to be online and  AFK   to sell their items?  There's a mail system in WOW, there's a offline system in DAOC and Horizons (that works pretty [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] well).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Unless.... SOE wants to "show off" online numbers..... saying:  "See?  We have a constant number of xxxx online people.... look... look.... its marvelous.... we can compare our online average numbers with WOW..... look....  isnt it beautiful????"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And by the way, if you want to balance economy out, then why the hell are  certain quest drops (grey to higher levels)  selling for over 5 Platinum?  Why are  rares used in armor/weapons   also  used in Heritage quests and selling for  over 2 Platinum?  Why are people taking advantage of  non-corpse drops and selling them at level 15  for  xxx Platinums???  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Concern yourselves with those problems and get rid of this LAME selling system once and for all (its not a offline broker system that will unbalance the market).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>GET RID OF THIS   "one room apartment AFK"   BULL   ASAP!!!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Davish_Darkwolf on <SPAN class=date_text>03-15-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:11 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Davish_Darkwolf on <span class=date_text>03-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:13 PM</span>

[Lonw]

If you want to put the brakes on offline selling, allow each account to only be able to offline sell for, say, 24 hours per week.The player can choose to sell on the weekend with high competition plus demand, or during the week, when less competition, and less demand. Some skill involved, knowing your market.It means everyone, regardless of internet connection, can still sell the same amount of time. There is also the limit that no person's stuff can be sold this way for more than 1/7th of the time, thus allowing greater fluctuations in the economy, similar to afk selling, thus ensuring that price undercutting wars are 1 day events at best, and that no one person can dominate the economy.Maybe even allow city quests that increase your selling time by an hour or 2.

[Havlen]

I'm fine with Sony wanting to foster a good economy in EQII -- they just happen to be going about it the wrong way. They are doing in a way that benefits some players at the expense of other players. It's like sayying, hey we are only going to let women work as teachers and nurses and librarians because we want to limit the number of people applying for the higher paying jobs to enrich our economy. Just because someone is a woman is no reason why they should be at a disadvantage, and just because someone is unable to keep their computer logged on at all hours of the day and night is no reason why they should be at a disadvantage. A system that allows someone to sell items while adventuring would be adequate, as would a system that allows a limited number of items to be sold offline.

[kjam]

<DIV> <DIV>I just wanted to get in line and pull my pants down and show my butt to SOE for this online sales [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]. This is why you lose people to WOW. If they dont get a PK server going in 3 months, im gone too.</DIV></DIV>

[Y]

<DIV>aye would like to see off-line selling, maybe up to 7-8 items like FFXI</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>also please add broker in open area. its silly to join artisan guild, zoning here and there just to check a few items (and i have to write down everything i need such as name of seller and which zone which house etc.)</DIV>

[GraymaneGravitic]

<P>When I first came to this game I was completely put off by the entire "market" implementation. I am still put off by it.</P> <P>I refuse to committ my game time to selling. It is absolutely ridiculous.</P> <P>I guess I was just spoiled by my experiences in UO and DAoC.</P> <P>UO had absoultely the most realistice market implementation of any game EVER.</P> <P>A big part of the fun of that game was wandering the countryside visiting all the player created villages and shopping the vendors. That they were dispersed throughtout the world and set right amidst the monster camps made it even more interesting. At any time along the way you could stop and do some monster hunting, run into other people doing the same thing and have many, many oppurtunities for fun interaction both with the world and other players. Talk about creating perfect oppurtunities for encountering other players to group with.</P> <P>It took DAoC some time to implement vendors or merchants, but they did it in a way that left thier world more sterile and missed the opurtunity for the kind of dynamic UO managed to create. Housing in DAoC is set in zones seperate from the adventuring world, The zones are sterile and almost no one wanders or travels them when they have the ability to teleport directly into and out of their houses. They aslo implemented a search engine, much like the one in this game, that eliminates the possibilities for interaction amongst traveling shoppers.</P> <P>Frankly, for me, search engines are the bane of the world. I want to browse. I want to see whats available on the shelfs. Not tell the clerk at the counter what I want form his back room and have him bring out that and only that. The search engine completely eliminates impulse buying, It pulls the rug out from under players who aren't sure what they want or need, but just might be enticed into buying something they encounter at random. The inability to visit some one's shop and see what is on sale on their vendor without having to resort to typing a list of what I am after completely destroys the illusion of immersiveness in a virtual "world".</P> <P>Let's face it, the concept of online only selling is dependent on very, very high server populations that presently don't exist. People can't find necessary items for sale because the few people on their server who have them to sell are not online at the same time they are. I really can't think of a system that could possibly be more idiotic. Maybe I am spoiled by having grown up in the great land of prosperity where I can walk into any store and find multiple examples of any product I need. This obviously makes it hard for me to accept an old soviet style system where I have to stand in line behind every other player on the server for three hours to buy the only roll of toilet paper available for sale on the server!</P> <P>I can't lend credence to the oversnesationalized concern over run away supply espoused by so many who post on these forums. SOE's solution to curbing run away supply threathen's to eliminate the supply altogether. The system of distribution doesn't work effectively and needs serious restructuring.</P>

[Mekke]

Why not make a auction system for player crafted items and keep the broker system for resources, etc

[lntox]

<DIV>I didn't read every single post in this thread so forgive me if I repeat something that was already said.  Here's my take.</DIV> <DIV>I played SWG for over two years, had two characters and praticed every single crafting profession at one point or another.  The market system was phenomenal and worked very well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It set up such that you placed vendor in a structure you owned, ie a merchant tent or your home or guild hall, placed your for sale items ON that merchant and he was up 24/7 whether you were online or not.  The kick was you had to pay the merchant upkeep.   There was no markup to the buyer at all, your crafted goods were available to be purchased at all times and you could almost always find something you were looking for.   Instead you see something on the broker, run to another zone to find out that the person selling your widget has just logged off or has decided to go adventuring/crafting or that you have mispelled thier name, or that you wrote down thier NAME instead of who's room they are in.  What a pain in the [Removed for Content].  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Those of you that say "oh but I won't be able to find what I'm looking for without wading through alot of junk and all the prices will go down".  Use the search function and there's alot of prices that DO need to come down depending on what server you play on.  And there's nothing stopping the dev's from adding more features to the search functions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I only get to play a few hours a day each evening after work.  I cannot leave my toon on 24/7 like some of you people.  I enjoy crafting and adventuring both but I certainly don't want to spend my precious playtime sitting in my room staring at the walls trying to unload some crafted goods so I can make a bit of a profit.   I can't even craft while selling unless I'm in a 15+ level guild and have enough G and status to purchase crafting stations for my room, tons of inventory space for supplies and sellables etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The market system needs some vast improvement and allowing offline selling is a step in the right direction.</DIV>

[FamilyManFir]

<blockquote><hr>Spaceweed wrote:<P>If that is correct - and obviously we don't know it is - then I would have to question SOE's motives for making it so.</P> <P>My first question would be 'why?' Is there some money making excercise in keeping players logged on 24 hrs a day - for eg, payments from ISP's who have limited megabyte downloads per month?</P> <P>Just a thought :smileywink:</P><hr></blockquote>SOE's argument is that they don't want a Broker "shopping mall" where anything you want is always available at the Broker. They argue that such a system is more harmful to the online economy than a system where things come onto the market and then go off the market, depending on when people play. I believe that they also want to foster online interactions by having buyers visit sellers, hence the 20% markup on Brokers vs. no markup by going directly to the seller.Given that these really are the reasons that they adamantly oppose any offline selling system my response is, "SOE, you have failed." Those who can, set up their computer to sell while they are AFK and, thus, their goods are always available (providing that they can get their character back online after the daily reset). This result is both discriminatory (against those who, for whatever reason, can't have their character up 24x7) and anti-environmental.My personal suggestion to achieve SOE's aims is twofold: 1) Create an NPC "Sellor" whom you can hire to sell your goods for a fee. The Sellor would carry a limited number of your goods and <i>would only sell for you for a limited time</i>; I'd suggest 4 hours, whether you were online or offline. You could re-hire him once the 4 hours was up if you wished; you could also add and remove items to sell for a re-listing fee. 2) <i>Scrap</i> the current Market Board system of selling goods. Otherwise you'll get people (who can) who will use both the Sellor and the Market Board for an economic advantage.BTW, I am an avid reader of the Dev Tracker and Moderator Tracker and I have seen nothing about SOE working on an offline sales system. I <i>have</i> seen mention of an <i>online</i> selling system, to allow you to sell things when online no matter where you are, but no details yet.Edited for html tags.<p>Message Edited by FamilyManFirst on <span class=date_text>03-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:05 PM</span>

[Kroder]

<DIV>Here is some information from earlier threads regarding this issue.  Many informed minds came together to influence this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I believe the easiest, and least difficult for players and devs to cope with, would be more like the following:</DIV> <DIV>(I believe it would also be quite balanced for gameplay too, especially considering that nothing can be sold that is not already possessed by a character, and offline selling does not create items, or hunt critters that drop them. Hence, no great flood of items is likely. If something is trying to be sold by someone, they already have the means to do so, and offline selling only means no internet connection needed for the selling part)</DIV> <DIV>1. The player sets up pricing, and has all items on their character ready to sell. They are in their Inn-Room, and have activated merchant mode.(No difference yet, they already need to do this)</DIV> <DIV>2. The player uses an alternate method of camping out, signifying to the game they wish to remain active as a merchant. They are given an option as to how long merchant mode will last, up to twelve hours. Server resetts and updates will of course dump merchants, same as current system. This serves to limit merchants to 12 hours maximum.</DIV> <DIV>3. Village broker: 20% broker fee, only handles merchants using inn-rooms from that village, (or zone, be it North Qeynos, etc). If you have had an inn-room in that village for at least 7 days, you only pay a 10% broker fee, (you are a local boy, and they want to keep you spending money at your home town).</DIV> <DIV>4. City broker: 40% broker fee, only handles merchants in that city. Frequently only useful as a directory, since that fee is higher.</DIV> <DIV>5. Black market fence: 60% broker fee, you are breaking the law by using this one. Seen as treasonous, because you are putting coin in the pockets of merchants in an enemy city. These may be located in dangerous areas, far from the eyes of watchful guards loyal to the local city.</DIV> <DIV>This establishes a firm money sink, frees up people's computers for normal use, and encourages local villages to recieve more visits by buyers anxious to get a better deal.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>What are the likely effects of offline selling? <BR> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> <BR>I am hearing about market flooding, and possible hazards offline selling may hold.  Allow me to put forth this likely set of results should it happen.<BR> <BR>First, they decide how to enforce a market control on the game.  Nothing drastic, but still something to be considered if it occurs.  A likely solution will be that offline merchants can only be accessed through the broker, using the 20% commission rate, 40% if in a zone outside the venders's home zone.  This is only a speed bump to the rate of increase the economy will undergo.<BR> <BR>It will also firmly entrench an effective money sink in the game, with the dual effect that high end items will be more likely to be sold through direct player interaction, bypassing the broker system the way Sony approves of.<BR> <BR>Second, the opportunists who are inflating prices for items they see a demand for.  With increased competition selling items, they will be less able to price gouge other players for a quick coin.  Increased merchant base means greater economic stability, and resistance to abuse.<BR> <BR>Third, since no one is able to sell anything not actually in their inventory, their will be no great flood of goods on the<BR>market.  Anyone who seriously wanted to sell anything, has already been trying to do so.  You will likely see lower end items up for sale more frequently, since these are the items that previously were considered not worth the trouble of going into merchant mode over.  (These items may seem to flood the market initially, because every character that had not been destroying them, will suddenly find the newer system to be more convenient to sell them with.)<BR> <BR>Long term effects, stable pricing structure will emerge, with the greatest levels of supply and demand coinciding with the most common levels characters persistant in the game.<BR> <BR>Rare items will still be rare.  It is of note, that this will not increase the rate of drops off of critters, the types of<BR>harvests that nodes have available, or what artisans are creating.  Sony may choose to play around with these for other reasons, but it will still be a seperate issue then.  Everything sold must still start out being dropped off of a critter, harvested by a character, or crafted by an artisan.  Offline merchants do not do these things any more than AFK ones do, so the rate of goods entering the game will not increase because of this.<BR> <BR>If they follow the most likely path for this, the merchant mode will not permit you to continue selling on one character, if you log into another.  The only merchants who are on 24 / 7 are the ones who never do anything but sell, never play. <BR> <BR>Not much room for abuse there.  This is already being done by many who can use two systems at once. <BR> <BR>Possible benefits?<BR> <BR>With a more stable economy, they may find the balance they were long seeking for artisans, adventurers, and how hard it is for goods to enter the markets through them.  Right now they are guessing, seeing what happens, and then trying to modify things using the newer data.  They may eventually succeed here, but with the market playing rather chaotically with each change, sometimes it can be misleading as to what is needed next.<BR> <BR>Players who had earned goods to sell, and were having long term connectivity issues with AFK selling, will find themselves on equal footing with their peers who did not have these issues.  A true win for fair play advocates.<BR> <BR>Less bandwidth being used up by AFK merchants.  While it may have no effect on the majority's play experience, many will find they have less lag, and an overall better play experience.<BR> <BR>There will possibly be more enthusiasm towards the game, as a result of any improvement on note.  This would make many players happy, in the long run, and the short term as well.<BR> <BR>Sony is likely to see many purchase 2nd accounts, and have dedicated merchants.  Hardly a disaster, in a large number of cases this was inevitable, regardless of the presence of offline selling.  This will speed up this effect.<BR></DIV>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<DIV>i would appreciate too if thered be the posibility to store 15-30 items someplace to have them sold off-line (be it auction or broker) I would even be ready to pay *taxes* for it.</DIV>

[Roaan]

<P>I know they will change that but i will be upset when they do for all the reason previously said about to much items on the market. I hate to bring down my stuff so low that its not even worth it to sell on vendor, I just sell to NPC because theres too much competition. The only way i would like the idea is if they remove the brokers, because its too easy to buy your stuff, remember in UO, it was Offline selling but it was really hard to compare the prices with others sellers, that was Ok and realistic. IMO its very well thought the way it is right now... Good Job SoE</P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by Roaan on <span class=date_text>03-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:01 PM</span>

[Mithru]

I think offline selling is off the table. I'd settle for online selling that doesn't require you to be in your room.

[Jor]

<P>I don't want to let my computer running all night or day just for a *game* </P> <P>while wasting RL energy....</P> <P> </P> <P>For me it's a pretty dumb idea and SOE should be pointed out as encouraging pollution. </P> <P>Sorry if I'm sounding extermist (which I'm not) but for me it's the N°1 issue with everquest !</P>

[Jimba]

I think if they were to keep the same system as now but let you hire a vender to stand in your place would be great. Becuase of the current system I have stopped crafting for now, and I sell all my adept spells and other loot I cant use to merchants becuase I dont have the luxury of AFK selling. I am possitive I am not alone on this, which is why it is so hard to find adept spells I need on the broker.

[snipes]

<P><SPAN class=postbody></P> <HR> </SPAN> <P><SPAN class=postbody>Steve "Moorgard" Danuser] One of the key reasons we launched with an online-only selling system is that we didn't want to flood the marketplace with items and make the economy grow too rapidly. We still believe there needs to be careful control over how goods flow through the marketplace.<BR><BR>At the same time, we don’t want crafters to feel like they have to sit in their house in order to earn a living, nor do we want players in non-US time zones to be especially inconvenienced by our vendor system. So in the coming updates, we're going to make some major changes that players should find appealing.<BR><BR>In phase one of these changes, you will be able to list items located in your house vault for sale on the market. This will give everyone more space to sell items, plus you will no longer need to clog up your personal inventory with stuff you want to sell. If you are online but not in your home, you will be able to leave your store open and the items in your house vault will still be up for sale. For instance, if you own a standard single-room apartment, you can buy containers and put them in your two house vault slots, then fill them with the goods you want to sell. Go out adventuring or crafting for the evening, and those items in your house vault will remain up for sale even though you aren't in your house.<BR><BR>Phase two is an even bigger change. If you are not online and you leave your store open, items in your house vault can still be purchased from the broker. That's right: we will be introducing offline selling.<BR><BR>You'll still need to remain online and in your home if you want to sell items from your character's personal inventory, but everyone will be able to maintain their store via their house vault regardless of whether they are online at the time. This will fulfill our goal of keeping the number of items in the marketplace under control while providing a lot more flexibility to our players.<BR></P></SPAN> <P><SPAN class=postbody></P> <HR> <P></SPAN>Got this from here   <A href="http://www.thescoutssanctuary.com/viewtopic.php?t=4233" target=_blank>http://www.thescoutssanctuary.com/viewtopic.php?t=4233</A></P> <P>havent seen the actual article this came from so it might not be true but maybe someone else has and can post it to back this up.</P> <P> </P> <P>Snipes</P>

[marni-n3]

I apologize for bumping this thread (and not reading it first), but I just had two ideas, and want to get them in writing before I forget about them. They've probably been covered before, but here goes: 1) Allow items in the bank/vaults/ MAYBE character to be marked as 'sellable'. During certain times (say, 6-7 AM and PM eastern) those items are visible on the market and can be bought through a vendor, whether the character selling them is online selling, online adventuring, or offline at the time. Therefore, those who always want their goods on the market (and many pay for another account for this), still get it - for 22 hours a day. Those who hate wasting time trying to sell things still have the opportunity to sell. Best of all, those would be prime buying hours. The number of items for sale would jump, and the chance of getting something you want at a good price would do the same. 2) House vaults: Allow items in house vaults to be sold 24/7. Not much else to say about this one <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[bobafet]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> marni-n3rd wrote:<BR>I apologize for bumping this thread (and not reading it first), but I just had two ideas, and want to get them in writing before I forget about them. They've probably been covered before, but here goes:<BR><BR>1) Allow items in the bank/vaults/ MAYBE character to be marked as 'sellable'. During certain times (say, 6-7 AM and PM eastern) those items are visible on the market and can be bought through a vendor, whether the character selling them is online selling, online adventuring, or offline at the time. Therefore, those who always want their goods on the market (and many pay for another account for this), still get it - for 22 hours a day. Those who hate wasting time trying to sell things still have the opportunity to sell. Best of all, those would be prime buying hours. The number of items for sale would jump, and the chance of getting something you want at a good price would do the same.<BR><BR>2) House vaults: Allow items in house vaults to be sold 24/7. Not much else to say about this one <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>only thing i can say is expand the number of house vault slots</P> <P>btw, if you have a 2 room apartment are there more than 2 vault slots?</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Dolf Goodchee]

Should SOE go with selling out of the house vault, online or offline, I hope they leave the current vault as-is where the slots can't be used to sell.  And do something like add 1 new "selling slot" that will not accept a bag or box larger than 5-7 slots.  The reasoning for this is so players couldn't put two 28 slot boxes in their vault and fill them with items for sale, when compounded across thousands of players doing so, would flood the market with massive quantities of the same items and thus cause a huge deflation.  If that happens, the number of players crafting or harvesting would drop substantially as the value of time spent wouldn't be there.

[Kroder]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dolf Goodcheese wrote:<BR>Should SOE go with selling out of the house vault, online or offline, I hope they leave the current vault as-is where the slots can't be used to sell.  And do something like add 1 new "selling slot" that will not accept a bag or box larger than 5-7 slots.  The reasoning for this is so players couldn't put two 28 slot boxes in their vault and fill them with items for sale, when compounded across thousands of players doing so, would flood the market with massive quantities of the same items and thus cause a huge deflation.  If that happens, the number of players crafting or harvesting would drop substantially as the value of time spent wouldn't be there.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>      Since no one is able to sell anything not actually in their inventory, there will be no great flood of goods on the market.  Anyone who seriously wanted to sell anything, has already been trying to do so.  You will likely see lower end items up for sale more frequently, since these are the items that previously were considered not worth the trouble of going into merchant mode over.  (These items may seem to flood the market initially, because every character that had not been destroying them, will suddenly find the newer system to be more convenient to sell them with.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There may also seem to be more items present as well, assuming you are checking during prime time hours for your server.  This is ONLY because players are able to engage merchant mode without compromising their playing time.  Ordinarily, these players had to quit selling in order to play with their friends.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When you have a significant share of the economy shutting down during prime time hours, you are NOT seeing the true economy.  Only it's shadow.  It's the Ladyhawk version of economics.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(Ladyhawk was a movie, where two lovers were seperated magically.  During the day, she was a hawk.  At night, he became a wolf.  They got to see a glimpse of each other at sunrise, and sunset, while the changes left them both human for 2 or 3 seconds.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At night, just after primetime, the sellers appear, to sell overnight.  They have finished spending time with their friends, and crafting items.  They now attempt to sell what they have, at horribly deflated prices, because they are helplessly aware that the reasons they are finding it now convenient to sell, everyone else who is like them will not be present with the ability to buy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>During prime time, when the buyers are present and interested, they are treated to a horribly inflated version of the economy.  This is because a large share of the sellers had to quit selling, in order to actually play the other aspects of the game.  The current sellers lose that competition, and the prices rise as a result.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What will we get?  Supply and demand to meet.  The off-prime time supply can get a chance to meet the prime time demand.  Which is exactly what should occur.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This game is not benefitting from the privileged few who can afford a second account, with the computer to keep it online in sales-mule mode.  Those people have been getting preferential treatment, due to the circumstances.  That is neither fair, nor in the players best interest as a whole.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Don't buy into the illusions.  Market flooding is a myth.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Dolf Goodchee]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kroder wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>      Since no one is able to sell anything not actually in their inventory, there will be no great flood of goods on the market............</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>If, offline sellers could only put 1 item in each of the 2 slots of the vault, then it wouldn't cause much of a problem to the market.  But as I said, if boxes are allowed into those 2 slots, then a person would be selling up to 56 items, of anything not just lower end items.  Multiply that by 80% of the number of players on a server (rough estimate), and you'd have serious market flood.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SOE has made decent decisions so far, so I'm hoping that they can see that selling from boxes/bags in the vault, without limitations, will be disasterous for the tradeskills.</DIV>

[Rijacki]

<span><blockquote><hr>Dolf Goodcheese wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Kroder wrote: <div>      Since no one is able to sell anything not actually in their inventory, there will be no great flood of goods on the market............</div> <hr> </blockquote> <div>If, offline sellers could only put 1 item in each of the 2 slots of the vault, then it wouldn't cause much of a problem to the market.  But as I said, if boxes are allowed into those 2 slots, then a person would be selling up to 56 items, of anything not just lower end items.  Multiply that by 80% of the number of players on a server (rough estimate), and you'd have serious market flood.  </div> <div> </div> <div>SOE has made decent decisions so far, so I'm hoping that they can see that selling from boxes/bags in the vault, without limitations, will be disasterous for the tradeskills.</div><hr></blockquote> 2 vault slots vs 6 inventory slots.  Currently a seller can set up with up to 6 bags/boxes at whatever size he can afford.  In the future each character slot could set up with up to 2 bag/boxes of whatever size can be afforded to sell 'round the clock. When you are a beginning player, you have small 4-slot bags and maybe not even a full 6.  At that stage, even putting 2 items up for sale might help you.  As you make a bit of money (adventuring or tradeskilling) you can expand your storage and selling capacity by getting bigger bags or boxes.  As you rise in levels (adventuring or tradeskilling), through the sales of items (NPC or broker) you can further expand.  The successful will have more capacity than the new or unsuccessful.  That's a slice of reality.  For a real world analogy, do you think Barnes and Nobel should have their shelves limited to the capacity of the locally owned and operated coffee shop bookstore?  No.  Yes, Barnes and Nobel would likely be able to sell for less, but the local owned one could have a more specialised offering. Do I think ofline selling, even given 2 vault slots with 28-slot (RARE wood box, 24-slot for T5 common box) boxes, will destroy the market?  Nope.  Yes, it will make is a lot harder for price gougers to sell at hugely inflated prices.  It might, though, get more goods available for sale than are now because there would be room for their sellers to market them.  The market will go through a period of adjustment after online-not-in-the-room-selling is added and then through a bigger adjustment when offline-selling is added.  The bigger adjustment for the offline selling will occur when people realise -each- character slot can have an inn-room with 2 slots for selling.  Honestly, though..... most people will have a hard time filling a single 12-slot maple box with stuff that's "sellable".  This is actually better for tradeskillers than adventurers because crafted products take up a lot of room.  I am a T5 alchemist and I sell Essences, poisons, and potions.  If I were to have 1 each of every T5 Essence, I would use about 120 slots. I currently have 20-slot boxes (my carpenter friend is just a nudge too low for teak boxes).  120 /20 = 6.  For a sage, double that count.  Obviously I don't carry every essence (I generally do not stock those which have common drops), so I have ONE out of 6 boxes set aside for looted/collected stuff (I adventure as well... 26 level paladin for my adventuring).  The loot/collection box is rarely full even with my boyfriend contributing to it.  </span><div></div>

[Kroder]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dolf Goodcheese wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> But as I said, if boxes are allowed into those 2 slots, then a person would be selling up to 56 items, of anything not just lower end items.  Multiply that by 80% of the number of players on a server (rough estimate), and you'd have serious market flood.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SOE has made decent decisions so far, so I'm hoping that they can see that selling from boxes/bags in the vault, without limitations, will be disasterous for the tradeskills.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You do understand, I hope, that these players are not coming out of thin air.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They are trying to sell their goods already.  They just have not been able to reach the prime time market without sacrificing their own play time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, instead of having their normal 6 slots to sell from, they are limited to 2 slots.  A 66% reduction of sales capacity, and you want to limit it even further?  They are already being more than cautious.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is no potential for a market flood.  If every salesperson who had to quit selling in order to play took advantage of it, then you would only see a part of the real market emerge into prime time.  Bear in mind, these items are going up for sale later, on the overnight market, regardless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Keeping the prime time player from having the opportunity to buy them is not the solution to this problem.  But then, you probably don't see a problem at all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This means you either don't care, (which makes it odd to see posts like yours), or you are benefitting from the reduced competition.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Of course, you could be honestly misstaken about the situation, and shouting fire for no good reason.  The marketplace isn't going to burn down, if this happens.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Expanding the merchant base is a good thing.  More potential abuse exists with fewer merchants than with more.  Price gouging merchants put a greater spin on things than undersellers do, any day.  Credit players with a bit of wisdom.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[FamilyManFir]

<blockquote><hr>Kroder wrote:<DIV>Now, instead of having their normal 6 slots to sell from, they are limited to 2 slots. A 66% reduction of sales capacity, and you want to limit it even further? They are already being more than cautious.</DIV><hr></blockquote>Given the <i>very</i> limited info we have right now, you are incorrect. Instead of having their normal 6 slots to sell from, they will have 12. They will do it through alts: 6 characters times 2 slots each is 12 slots. SOE could avoid that by doing something funky like only allowing one character per account to sell offline at once, but that opens up its own can of "unfair!" worms: what about the player who legitimately plays several characters, can't they have the opportunity for their alts to sell offline?Mind you, I don't know if "flooding the market" would be a bad thing or not. However, I have grave reservations about offline selling from the House Vault as-is, assuming that SOE really does want to limit the number of items on the market at any given time.Edited for clarity.<p>Message Edited by FamilyManFirst on <span class=date_text>03-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:13 PM</span>

[ladeni]

agree with vurin , put in a bazaar or something like it please. <div></div>

[Dolf Goodchee]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kroder wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>You do understand, I hope, that these players are not coming out of thin air.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They are trying to sell their goods already.  They just have not been able to reach the prime time market without sacrificing their own play time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P> <HR> <P></P> <P>The players trying to sell their goods already would not be the ones to cause the maket flood.  The players that would be "coming out of thin air", or, haven't been interested / bothered with selling before, are the ones that will cause great problems.</P> <P>And you're right with "The marketplace isn't going to burn down, if this happens." .............. it will be flooded.  </P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Kroder]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dolf Goodcheese wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <P>The players trying to sell their goods already would not be the ones to cause the maket flood.  <FONT color=#ff3333>The players that would be "coming out of thin air", or, haven't been interested / bothered with selling before, are the ones that will cause great problems.</FONT></P> <P>And you're right with "The marketplace isn't going to burn down, if this happens." .............. it will be flooded.  </P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>That is terrible to hear someone say.  You would imply that these players have no right to sell their goods, because they chose to adventure, or tradeskill.<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They did not give up their right to sell goods, just because they would not use the AFK online model for being a merchant.  Indeed, these players have been long overdue an opportunity to have a chance to sell the goods they have managed to earn, through efforts every bit as legitimate as anyone already selling.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You might as well call the market flooded now, simply because you don't like to see so many people selling a few items.  The nature of this economy relies on competition, to buy OR sell.  Calling it flooding is a highly missleading action.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So long as the overnight sales cannot meet the prime time demand, the economy is a joke of circumstance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And no, it is highly unlikely they will allow more than one character to sell at a time on an account.  Parallel sales like that could be used by everyone, and would be nearly pointless to enable.  You would simply see sales mules appear to fill up slots as they were needed, and would be a coding effort exponentially more complicated.</DIV> <DIV> Multiple account sales is already in existance, and is already a significant advantage to both Sony, (extra account fees), and the players who use it, (dedicated sales mules let them play any character, and still keep selling).  Neither would benefit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Dolf Goodchee]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kroder wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dolf Goodcheese wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <P>The players trying to sell their goods already would not be the ones to cause the maket flood.  <FONT color=#ff3333>The players that would be "coming out of thin air", or, haven't been interested / bothered with selling before, are the ones that will cause great problems.</FONT></P> <P>And you're right with "The marketplace isn't going to burn down, if this happens." .............. it will be flooded.  </P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>That is terrible to hear someone say.  You would imply that these players have no right to sell their goods, because they chose to adventure, or tradeskill.<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>.................</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Take off the blinders, please................ </P> <P>Most people that "only" quest/adventure, by their choice, do use the market to sell what they loot, and they must be doing it when they are online.</P> <P>Now, give those people the option to sell 40-56 items at any time, 24/7, whether they are playing or not, and guess what?  They will be selling as much as often as they can......................... <EM>when they normally wouldn't have been, by choice.  </EM>Fixing it for those on dialup and such, would, in a way be creating a huge problem of a deflated market, unless it is done in a limited way.</P> <P>I hope you can understand that, as I can not explain it in any easier terms.</P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Camenwolf]

<P>It seems to me that if the reason for on-line selling is simply to limit the number of items on the market that the answer would be to limit the amount of time items could be sold whether online or offline.</P> <P>In other words, list your items for sell, you have two hours (hypothetically) to sell them, pick your time slot, set your price, then forget about it.  Your goods are marketed during that time slot whether you are online or offline.  A system could be put in place to show which time slots had the least amount of sellers of your type of good.  As an additional money sink, a system could be put in place whereby a certain baseline amount of market time is free.  If you want more market time, you have to pay for it.  Or possibly the broker charges a higher percentage to the buyer if the seller is using excessive market time and/or a higher percentage to seller and/or buyer depending on the amount of players online at any give time (in order to keep the market from swaying to far into the seller's or buyer's corner)</P> <P>It just seems to me that it shouldn't be that difficult to come up with a system to limit the market supply without making a half million subscribers leave their freaking computers turned on all day.  I'm surprised the EPA hasn't gotten involved in this.  They sell computers and monitors which are decked out with power saving features so that hard drives, CRTs, processors, etc. are all shut down automatically when not in use, and a video game is causing people to leave them turned on specifically while the players are *not* playing in order to balance a game dynamic?!  Come on!  SOE, I have a lot of respect for your talent.  I *know* that you can come up with a better system than this.</P> <DIV>Best Regards</DIV>

[Camenwolf]

<DIV> <P>Double posted... sorry.  Tried to delete.</P></DIV><p>Message Edited by Camenwolf on <span class=date_text>03-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:12 PM</span>

[Dolf Goodchee]

Limited selling time is an interesting idea.  Although it should only apply to when a player is not in his/her room or offline.  They could increase the number of items for sale, say to 20, then limit the time to around 2 hours, useable once per 24 hours.  SOE would still have to have an item limit, or there would be market flood at certain times of the day.

[Nainitsuj]

<P>I don't get it, SWG got it to work, why can't EQ2 copy the same system (just the bazaar) for ease.</P> <P>It adds a new money sink, stabalizes(sp?) the economy and makes it possible for people to sell items for money while offline/adventuring.</P> <P> </P> <P>On a side note, why can't I have a record of what was sold.  I hate trying to guess what items I've sold through the night (I check after server reset, when I get home from work)</P> <p>Message Edited by Nainitsuj on <span class=date_text>03-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:50 PM</span>

[Kroder]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dolf Goodcheese wrote: <P>Take off the blinders, please................</P> <P>Most people that "only" quest/adventure, by their choice, do use the market to sell what they loot, and they must be doing it when they are online.</P> <P>Now, give those people the option to sell 40-56 items at any time, 24/7, whether they are playing or not, and guess what?  They will be selling as much as often as they can......................... <EM>when they normally wouldn't have been, by choice.  </EM>Fixing it for those on dialup and such, would, in a way be creating a huge problem of a deflated market, unless it is done in a limited way.</P> <P>I hope you can understand that, as I can not explain it in any easier terms.</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>The market is an aspect of fair play considerations.  Like it or not, people who want to sell, and people who are able to sell, are not the same groups.  Where they overlap is the current merchant base. </DIV> <DIV> While this is advantageous for those able to currently sell, they do not own exclusive rights to this ability.  Sooner or later, their competition will be given the ability to fairly compete in the market.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Make everyone who wants to sell, able to sell, and that will be more in line with absolute fairness. </DIV> <DIV> Natural limitations on item availability will still keep sales in check.  People do not spontaneously create goods for sale.</DIV> <DIV>  They require raw materials, and effort, (for crafting), or time and patience in adventuring. Neither of these is simple for worthwhile goods to sell.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Having satisfied these requirements, we do not have the right to deny them fair opportunity to sell their goods.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Dolf Goodchee]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kroder wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><BR>The market is an aspect of fair play considerations.  Like it or not, people who want to sell, and people who are able to sell, are not the same groups.  Where they overlap is the current merchant base. </DIV> <DIV> While this is advantageous for those able to currently sell, they do not own exclusive rights to this ability.  Sooner or later, their competition will be given the ability to fairly compete in the market.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Make everyone who wants to sell, able to sell, and that will be more in line with absolute fairness. </DIV> <DIV> Natural limitations on item availability will still keep sales in check.  People do not spontaneously create goods for sale.</DIV> <DIV>  They require raw materials, and effort, (for crafting), or time and patience in adventuring. Neither of these is simple for worthwhile goods to sell.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Having satisfied these requirements, we do not have the right to deny them fair opportunity to sell their goods.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>"Like it or not, people who want to sell, and people who are able to sell, are not the same groups. "</P> <P>^^ Add to that "people that voluntarily don't sell" and "people that voluntarily only sell loot" currently, then that statement would be correct.</P> <P>There are a lot of players that just don't sell now, by choice.  Dangle a gold nugget in front of their heads, and they are going to stampede to chase it, just because it's there.  Not just initially either.</P> <P>As for your "absolute fairness", that is <STRONG>never </STRONG>going to happen....... ever.  That is, unless everyone that plays EQ2 is forced to only use dial-up internet service, have 1 phone line, have the same living conditions, and have only 1 EQ2 account.  Personally, I'm going to argue with anyone that says someone with 1 phone line and dial-up service (costing $20-$40/month) with limited connection time should have the same advantages as someone with highspeed service (costing $50-$80/month) that has a connection that is always on.  The same goes for someone who only has 1 account to play/sell shouldn't have the same advantage as someone who pays for 2 accounts to sell more.</P> <P>Therefore, SOE allowing players to sell while outside their houses and maybe offline, but in limited quantities, and leaving the others to sell normally while online and in their houses, will help those players out that are stuck with dial-up, but won't deflate/ruin the market for everyone else.<BR></P>

[Kroder]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dolf Goodcheese wrote: <P>"Like it or not, people who want to sell, and people who are able to sell, are not the same groups. "</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>^^ Add to that "people that voluntarily don't sell" and "people that voluntarily only sell loot" currently, then that statement would be correct.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc00>For whatever reasons they choose not to sell, they are still able to sell.  I referred to people having both the ability <STRONG>and</STRONG> the desire together as being our merchant base.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc00>  The expectation that the current system does not make selling worth their time and effort, is a valid opinion.  If an improved means of selling becomes available to them, it is only natural that they would attempt to try it.</FONT></P> <P>There are a lot of players that just don't sell now, by choice.  Dangle a gold nugget in front of their heads, and they are going to stampede to chase it, just because it's there.  Not just initially either.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>As for your "absolute fairness", that is <STRONG>never </STRONG>going to happen....... ever.</FONT>  That is, unless everyone that plays EQ2 is forced to only use dial-up internet service, have 1 phone line, have the same living conditions, and have only 1 EQ2 account.  Personally, I'm going to argue with anyone that says someone with 1 phone line and dial-up service (costing $20-$40/month) with limited connection time should have the same advantages as someone with highspeed service (costing $50-$80/month) that has a connection that is always on.  The same goes for someone who only has 1 account to play/sell shouldn't have the same advantage as someone who pays for 2 accounts to sell more.</P> <P><FONT color=#00cc00>Now you're being funny. The pursuit of an ideal is done because the effort improves the situation.  Noone actually expects to achieve absolute fairness, even though it is a pleasing idea.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc00>  As for the rest of that paragraph, (detailing how people who can afford better hardware and ISP service deserve a better EQ2 play experience),  you seem to feel advantages in EQ2 should be for sale.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc00>If I am not misstaken, it is the players effort that defines their play experience.  Noone should have an advantage because they have a cable modem instead of a dial-up connection.</FONT></P> <P>Therefore, SOE allowing players to sell while outside their houses and maybe offline, but in limited quantities, and leaving the others to sell normally while online and in their houses, will help those players out that are stuck with dial-up, <FONT color=#ffff00>but won't deflate/ruin the market for everyone else.<BR></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc00>See.. there is that troubling assumption you are making.  The idea that if they let people sell their goods during prime time, that it will have a negative effect on the game economy in general.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc00>  Depriving a segment of the merchant base the ability to sell on equal ability, because they could not afford a second account, or they happen to play when the best time to sell exists, is wrong.  It is depriving the players, who want to buy goods at non-gouging prices, from being able to do so reliably.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc00>Whenever you reduce the competition for goods, the remaining goods on the market are freed from any need to maintain a fair pricing structure for the purpose of competition. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc00>Put another way, if item A can be made, and sold, for less than it normally appears now, you say that such sales should be blocked.  Players should not have the ability to make the extra effort to succeed in the market, because their very presence will make the current merchants actually have to charge a more fair price for goods.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc00>The arguments you put forth seem to favor those who would inflate prices when given the opportunity.  You seem to want to protect those opportunities.</FONT></P> <P> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Yellow </FONT>= other poster's comments I found noteworthy</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc00>Green </FONT>= my replies to these<BR></DIV>

[Homesli]

<blockquote><hr>Nainitsuj wrote: <P>I don't get it, SWG got it to work, why can't EQ2 copy the same system (just the bazaar) for ease.</P> <P>It adds a new money sink, stabalizes(sp?) the economy and makes it possible for people to sell items for money while offline/adventuring.</P> <P> </P> <P>On a side note, why can't I have a record of what was sold. I hate trying to guess what items I've sold through the night (I check after server reset, when I get home from work)</P> <p>Message Edited by Nainitsuj on <span class=date_text>03-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:50 PM</span><hr></blockquote>Look for your sales log in your eq2 folder. It doesn't do you any good in game but it exists <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Hopefully with the new changes it will be better, they did say that you would get a sales log when you log in if you were selling while you were offline.And not sure if someone responded to the guy that made the statement about each character selling offline, you can only have one character selling offline at one time.

[Ydiss]

<P>I can only agree with Kroder on this. I have lost count of the times I've needed a particular item when I've been playing and it's not on the market because it's not US prime time. Living in the UK, overnight selling has always been very profitable for me. However, as a buyer, I miss out quite a lot and can often be forced to pay higher prices simply because there's no competition when I'm playing.</P> <P>More items for sale at all times does not necessarily equal a market flood. The extra items will get bought, the items that don't will come down in price and in turn will be bought. Remember, we still have a finite economy here - very few items can be sold, used and then resold. So the actual amount of items that can be sold, potentially, will not necessarily go up because of vault selling.</P> <P>Personally, I'd have been happy with online selling only (ie, vault sells to broker but only when you're online). Or, adversely, with offline vault selling only (so that you cannot sell while adventuring). SOE have chosen to impliment the ability to do both, shortly after introducing big changes to limit item flooding (attunable items and quest items no drop).</P> <P>It's a positive move and saying it'll have a direly negative impact on the market is just doom-saying without any basis or evidence. Speculation is nothing, if the market does start to reach dangerously flooded levels do you seriously think SOE will sit back and say, 'Oh well, we messed that up - nothing we can do now!'</P> <P>Of course they won't. They'll fix it, if needs be. </P> <P>Remember, just because more items are for sale at one point does not mean the market is flooded. More availability equals more items being bought as well, you know? And seeing as, like I said above, vault selling doesn't actually increase the amount of items being made or being looted, this can only be a positive thing for the economy. More items being bought, more players spending money on items that are expendible, more items being taken out of the game.</P> <P>You can't predict a change will be disasterous without even taking a moment to explore the positive affects of the change.</P>

[Dolf Goodchee]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kroder wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dolf Goodcheese wrote: <P><FONT color=#ffff00><FONT color=#ffffff>............</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>As for your "absolute fairness", that is <STRONG>never </STRONG>going to happen....... ever.</FONT>  That is, unless everyone that plays EQ2 is forced to only use dial-up internet service, have 1 phone line, have the same living conditions, and have only 1 EQ2 account.  Personally, I'm going to argue with anyone that says someone with 1 phone line and dial-up service (costing $20-$40/month) with limited connection time should have the same advantages as someone with highspeed service (costing $50-$80/month) that has a connection that is always on.  The same goes for someone who only has 1 account to play/sell shouldn't have the same advantage as someone who pays for 2 accounts to sell more.</P> <P><FONT color=#00cc00>Now you're being funny. The pursuit of an ideal is done because the effort improves the situation.  Noone actually expects to achieve absolute fairness, even though it is a pleasing idea.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#3399ff>^^ I'm glad you understand that.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc00>  As for the rest of that paragraph, (detailing how people who can afford better hardware and ISP service deserve a better EQ2 play experience),  you seem to feel advantages in EQ2 should be for sale.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#3399ff>^^ Your words are trying to put an evil twist to mine.  The simple and correct interpretation of what I wrote is basically this, that the more effort a person puts into the game, the more he or she should be rewarded.  Effort, which includes looting/harvesting/crafting, also includes players running more two accounts (one to adventure/craft and the other to be selling), and yes, even having a cable modem / dsl instead of dial up to be able to be online all the time.  Some players actually work for a living, and spend more money than the minimum, to have highspeed service and/or a second account.     </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc00>If I am not misstaken, it is the players effort that defines their play experience.  Noone should have an advantage because they have a cable modem instead of a dial-up connection.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#3399ff>So you'd have everyone required to use only the lowest common denominator, dial up with one phone line?  Yes, I'm being funny there, sort of, but that is what you seem to portray in that statement.  </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </P> <P>Therefore, SOE allowing players to sell while outside their houses and maybe offline, but in limited quantities, and leaving the others to sell normally while online and in their houses, will help those players out that are stuck with dial-up, <FONT color=#ffff00>but won't deflate/ruin the market for everyone else.<BR></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc00>See.. there is that troubling assumption you are making.  The idea that if they let people sell their goods during prime time, that it will have a negative effect on the game economy in general.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#3399ff>It will have a negative effect.  Not just some people selling some goods during prime time, like I'm referring to, that would be fine.  The problem would be a lot of people selling a lot of goods 24/7. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc00>  Depriving a segment of the merchant base the ability to sell on <FONT color=#ff3366>equal ability</FONT>, because they could not afford a second account, or they happen to play when the best time to sell exists, is wrong.  It is depriving the players, who want to buy goods at non-gouging prices, from being able to do so reliably.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc00>Whenever you reduce the competition for goods, the remaining goods on the market are freed from any need to maintain a <FONT color=#ff3366>fair pricing</FONT> structure for the purpose of competition. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#3399ff>Of course monopolies on goods in the market would not be healthy (really can't happen now), but I'm betting that a Marxist economy is not wanted by too many others.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc00>Put another way, if item A can be made, and sold, for less than it normally appears now, you say that such sales should be blocked.  </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#3399ff>No, I never said that.  Look, using your example, if item A can be made and sold for less than the same item is selling for currently, then fine.  Here's is where the trouble comes in though.  Expanding on your example: Now, if 10 players make the same type of bed and try to sell them, they will likely compete in price somewhat and the price might be between 60sp - 50sp.  Should SOE implement out-of-house or offline selling that is essentially unlimited (up to 56+ items 24/7), suddenly there is 200 players making / selling the same type of bed and because of too much competition in pricing, the average cost ends up around  25sp, just a couple of silver or copper over the cost of supplies needed.  And as a result, in a short period of time, a lot of the players give up crafting because it's not worth their time.  Apply that scenario, in a greater or lesser degree, across the board to anything crafted or harvested, and there's a huge problem with the economy.   </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc00>Players should not have the ability to make the extra effort to succeed in the market, because their very presence will make the current merchants actually have to charge a more fair price for goods.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#3399ff>And I never said that.  I said just the opposite above "the more effort a person puts into the game, the more he or she should be rewarded".</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc00>The arguments you put forth seem to favor those who would inflate prices when given the opportunity.  You seem to want to protect those opportunities.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#3399ff>I'm looking at the big picture.  I enjoy crafting, I enjoy selling, and I enjoy surfing/buying from  the market.  There are many many others that also enjoy those aspects of the game, and like myself, see them as breaks from just adventuring.  I don't want to see any of of those aspects (all dependant on the market/economy) nerfed to pointlessness.</FONT></P> <P> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ydiss wrote:<BR> <P>........................</P> <P>............. Speculation is nothing, if the market does start to reach dangerously flooded levels do you seriously think SOE will sit back and say, 'Oh well, we messed that up - nothing we can do now!'</P> <P>Of course they won't. They'll fix it, if needs be. </P> <P><FONT color=#3399ff>Yes of course they would.  Adding to what I wrote before though, dangle a gold nugget in front of the crowd and you'll get a stampede; pull it away, and you got an angry stampeded crowd.  I'm guessing SOE doesn't like doing that to the community.  It's would seem in SOE's best interest to implement something like this, starting on a limited basis.</FONT></P> <P>Remember, just because more items are for sale at one point does not mean the market is flooded. </P> <P><FONT color=#3399ff>*best Clinton impersonation* <EM>That depends, on what the meaning of the word ........"more", is.  </EM></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#3399ff>2, 5, 10, 20, probably not flooded, but 40, 50, 100+ of the same item for sale?  I would call that a flood.</FONT></P> <P><BR></P> <P> <HR> </DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>blue text </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>= what I just wrote</FONT><p>Message Edited by Dolf Goodcheese on <span class=date_text>04-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:17 PM</span>

[Ydiss]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dolf Goodcheese wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P>Remember, just because more items are for sale at one point does not mean the market is flooded. </P> <P><FONT color=#3399ff>*best Clinton impersonation* <EM>That depends, on what the meaning of the word ........"more", is.  </EM></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#3399ff>2, 5, 10, 20, probably not flooded, but 40, 50, 100+ of the same item for sale?  I would call that a flood.</FONT></P></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm still not convinced this will ruin the economy. People have been saying x patch and y fix will ruin the economy since day one, since beta even. If I still can't find items on the broker that I want to buy on a regular basis then the economy, at least on my server, is far from ruined. This change, coupled with the no-trade and attuned changes, gives me absolutely no fear that the market might saturate.</P> <P>It gives me no fear because I do not bother myself about things I cannot possibly predict. And anyone who thinks they can predict that a patch will ruin an aspect of the game before it's even happened, with 100% accuracy, is deluding themselves. And wasting their efforts worrying about it.</P> <P>The devs have their plan. They think it will work. If it doesn't work as intended it'll be changed. Such is the way of the MMO game and, in my humble opinion, not something worth getting all worked up over. <FONT size=1>Even more so because it won't ruin the game anyway... : )</FONT><BR></P>

[Namil]

<DIV>Woohoo offline selling is finaly here. But at what cost?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SOE gave us the ability to share houses and have multiple merchants depending on the size of them. Many couples and friends share these houses/apartments. Many sellers wanted the ability to sell offline. But the current system makes the above house sharing an inconvienence or just plain annoying. (yes I know the work arounds to it) Why give us the ability to share houses and apartments to then go and make a great thing like offline selling turn it into an agravation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This has a second effect and ends up penalizing the buyers not the sellers by forcing the buyer to only be able to purchasey from the NPC broker. This will automatically charge the buyer %20 over the price of the item. Why make the buyer suffer for giving the sellers something they wanted.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Solutions</STRONG>: Here is a possible solution to both problems - Purchasable Merchants that charge a weekly upkeep. The more expensive the upkeep the more vendor slots that merchant will have. Allow all House/Apartment owners and whoever they set to Trustee the ability to access this vendor/merchant. This way you are still controlling the amount of storage slots in any given house/apartment. Make it so the owner can set the amount of slots a person can use and do not allow other characters to remove these items as to prevent No Trade items exchanging hands. Also allow the items placed on the vendor to not be sold if the character does not want to sell that item. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Offline selling will now be of cost to the seller not the buyer. </DIV> <DIV>2) Continued limited storage in a house/apartment.</DIV> <DIV>3) Still a money sink for the weekly cost of the merchant/vendor.</DIV> <DIV>4) Owners and Trustees can still continue to share their Home/Apartments.</DIV> <DIV>5) Owners and Trustees can both sell offline.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just an idea!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Namilla</DIV>

[Spartic]

<div></div><div></div>It's funny when you read tradeskillers who complain about offline selling when you know full well they'll be living it up when people start putting more harvesting materials for sale. <p>Message Edited by Sparticis on <span class=date_text>04-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:46 AM</span>

[Kroder]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Namilla wrote:<BR> <DIV>Woohoo offline selling is finaly here. But at what cost?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SOE gave us the ability to share houses and have multiple merchants depending on the size of them. Many couples and friends share these houses/apartments. Many sellers wanted the ability to sell offline. But the current system makes the above house sharing an inconvienence or just plain annoying. (yes I know the work arounds to it) Why give us the ability to share houses and apartments to then go and make a great thing like offline selling turn it into an agravation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This has a second effect and ends up penalizing the buyers not the sellers by forcing the buyer to only be able to purchasey from the NPC broker. This will automatically charge the buyer %20 over the price of the item. Why make the buyer suffer for giving the sellers something they wanted.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Solutions</STRONG>: Here is a possible solution to both problems - Purchasable Merchants that charge a weekly upkeep. The more expensive the upkeep the more vendor slots that merchant will have. Allow all House/Apartment owners and whoever they set to Trustee the ability to access this vendor/merchant. This way you are still controlling the amount of storage slots in any given house/apartment. Make it so the owner can set the amount of slots a person can use and do not allow other characters to remove these items as to prevent No Trade items exchanging hands. Also allow the items placed on the vendor to not be sold if the character does not want to sell that item. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Offline selling will now be of cost to the seller not the buyer. </DIV> <DIV>2) Continued limited storage in a house/apartment.</DIV> <DIV>3) Still a money sink for the weekly cost of the merchant/vendor.</DIV> <DIV>4) Owners and Trustees can still continue to share their Home/Apartments.</DIV> <DIV>5) Owners and Trustees can both sell offline.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just an idea!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Namilla</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The original people able to sell during these times can still do so, with the original pricing options.  The new merchants using this method must match pricing by that 20% margin in order to compete.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is an extra option, not a replacement.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>