What are gathered resources worth now?

[Lig]

<DIV>I asked this question before but got no answer. No I am not some resale freak. I have a 36 Inq, 37 Provisioner and am just wondering what value SOE has put on harvested resources in terms of final product resal value.</DIV>

[Caable]

all harvested item minus rares are worth 1cp since the tradeskill patch.

[Nim]

Yea i'll be as blunt as the 2nd poster.. Since the patch harvesting no longer is worthwhile except in the vain hope of getting a rare..I can't even sell tier 5 raws for 50c each.. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />SoE plx bring back the tasks.. the patrch not only killed of crafting in the largescale but it killed of the harvesting profession..Now the ONLY way of making money is adventuring.. so might as well get rid of crafting altogether now..

[Mesme]

<DIV>I think he is asking something different.  In one of the patch messages, it mentioned that a harvesting component was going to be added to the value of crafted items.  For example if i made an ice coffee,  It would be valued based on fuel, liquid, and now for the everfrost beans used to craft the drink.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, the question is, how much value was added for harvested components to the value of crafted items?</DIV>

[DevlDeg]

Only harvesters now are tradeskillers PERIOD. Harvested items are not worth the trouble it takes to go out and harvest. And rares??? hahahahah. I think I have harvested 1 tier 3 rare and 1 teir 4 rare in my over 10,000 harvests. Is that worth it? Sony took a skill that I worked on for HOURS and made it worthless.

[Lig]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mesmer2 wrote:<BR> <DIV>I think he is asking something different.  In one of the patch messages, it mentioned that a harvesting component was going to be added to the value of crafted items.  For example if i made an ice coffee,  It would be valued based on fuel, liquid, and now for the everfrost beans used to craft the drink.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, the question is, how much value was added for harvested components to the value of crafted items?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> This is exactly what I am asking. I was able to sell a T4 drink for say 36cp before... what does this same drink sell for now? (These are made up numbers I am just wondering what the change is). Do they sell for 1 sp or is it only a few cp that are added?

[Ibis]

he is referring to the value added to resources used in crafting in relation to their % markup for vendor selling final products, workshop tasks, and city tasks. stop whining about the worthlessness of harvested items here. you think someone has to ask the socialist test server about that subject?<p>Message Edited by Ibishi on <span class=date_text>03-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:24 AM</span>

[HanktheDwarf]

<DIV>I think I saw someone said that it added 4cp to their T2 crafted item (coffee or something or other).</DIV>

[Nim]

yea i know what he meant as just wanted a moan fest <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> -- lol

[Attrael]

Heh, I always get a kick out of people complaining that they can't sell their harvested resources? Did SOE take away your money printing press? HA HA! All that price gouging you did back when the system was flawed and now it's come to bite you in the behind, since the tradeskillers all harvested themselves instead of paying overinflated prices. Now they can harvest themselves and you are no longer needed. Sucks being on the other end of the stick, doesn't it? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Kizee]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DevlDeggs wrote:<BR>Only harvesters now are tradeskillers PERIOD. Harvested items are not worth the trouble it takes to go out and harvest. And rares??? hahahahah. I think I have harvested 1 tier 3 rare and 1 teir 4 rare in my over 10,000 harvests. Is that worth it? <BR><BR>Sony took a skill that I worked on for HOURS and made it worthless.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I'm glad that the harvestables tanked in price. </FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT></DIV> <DIV>I always thought it was stupid that the harvestors were making more moneyin less time than the people crafting.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT></DIV> <DIV>Harvesting pre patch was like printing your own money...running up to a node and hearing cha ching 25s each click. :smileyindifferent:</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Kizee on <span class=date_text>03-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:23 AM</span>

[Lig]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> HanktheDwarf wrote:<BR> <DIV>I think I saw someone said that it added 4cp to their T2 crafted item (coffee or something or other).</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Ok thank you. That's what I wanted to know. 4cp is a bit low IMO I was hoping for something like 20cp for T2 and upwards of 1sp for T5.</P> <P>And it was not the harvesters printing money it was crafters like me. That's right I admit it I made a few Plat before they nerfed tradeskill writs and tasks. If the system works one way then you do that till they fix it. It's not like I was exploiting a bug I was just doing what the game mechanics allowed and SOE themselves thought was correct.</P> <P>The reason you can't say that harvesters printed money is because they were getting it from other players. That money was not actually "new" money it was gold from other players and the only reason it was selling for so much was because writs and tasks paid so much.</P> <P>I'm glad they nerfed the writs and tasks... it needed to be done for sure. I just think that harvested resources do have value and that this is a way for a small stream of "new" cash to come into the game outside of selling drops.</P>

[BlueKnightLPL]

<DIV><<Only harvesters now are tradeskillers PERIOD. Harvested items are not worth the trouble it takes to go out and harvest.>></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not true.  I'm not crafting yet but do keep up my harvesting skills.  I make about 50s-1.5g when I do put my trader up (can't every night because I run on a notebook and it will overheat with this game).   Now I make 2-10g selling loot drops fairly regularly.  I harvest regularly for quests and at the end of the night before logging - or on slow nights when there are few other guildies on and I don't have any quests I can run down individually.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What sucks is the players with no sense of economy that throw their harvests (even tier 4 stuff) out there for 1cp.  Why even bother?  I would delete a stack if that's all I get for it - the inv slot is worth more to me than 20cp!!!!  One of these days, if I have time, I'll take advantage of it and buy/resell some of that stuff.  Don't know if it's worth the effort for max 1s per stack.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, I notice what finished products that use my harvest cost.  So a food item that sells for 2-4s I'll target the main ingrediant for around 50cp so we ALL can make a bit of profit.  Things like drinks that use apples or honey are sold for 20s and up, so selling the main ingrediate for 5+ silver is very reasonable.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Blondebea]

Any more info besides tier 2?As an armor crafter trying to get past 25 my day is like this:Make 100 tempers.Make 50 ingots. Make 50 plates. Make 150 washes. Make 50 yarns.Make 50 paddings.Make 50 threads. Make 50 oils.Make 50 tapa papers. Make 50 patterns. Make 50 shoulder pads 2.5% xp a pop. Level up, make next recipee that requires the least number of paddings. Sell 5 to players, sell 45 to the merchant for lack of inventory space. Rinse. Repeat.

[Ijiamee]

<DIV>T5 harvestables are worth right clicking on and selecting "Destroy". Harvesting used to be profitable, and that justified that time spent looking for rares to upgrade armor, weapons, or spells. Now, it is literally the most unrewarding aspect of eq2.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe, when adept3's are actually an upgrade, harvesting for 0 profit will somehow seem rewarding.</DIV>

[Speak]

<DIV>Even market price for rares is falling due to lack of demand due to lack of gold. On live the economy is [Removed for Content].   I know quite a number of people who are giving SOE till the next big update before packing up.</DIV>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Speaker wrote:<BR> <DIV>Even market price for rares is falling due to lack of demand due to lack of gold. On live the economy is [Removed for Content].   I know quite a number of people who are giving SOE till the next big update before packing up.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>you mean the next big$$$ update? - better start packing up yourself</DIV>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ijiamee wrote:<BR> <DIV>T5 harvestables are worth right clicking on and selecting "Destroy". Harvesting used to be profitable, and that justified that time spent looking for rares to upgrade armor, weapons, or spells. Now, it is literally the most unrewarding aspect of eq2.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe, when adept3's are actually an upgrade, harvesting for 0 profit will somehow seem rewarding.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Harvesting was never intended as an income  - thats why the stuff is NO-VALUE!<BR>

[Ijiamee]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ijiamee wrote:<BR> <DIV>T5 harvestables are worth right clicking on and selecting "Destroy". Harvesting used to be profitable, and that justified that time spent looking for rares to upgrade armor, weapons, or spells. Now, it is literally the most unrewarding aspect of eq2.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe, when adept3's are actually an upgrade, harvesting for 0 profit will somehow seem rewarding.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Harvesting was never intended as an income  - thats why the stuff is NO-VALUE!<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>That's rubbish. My Stein of Maggok is NO-VALUE! but can sell for a PP. Harvestables are the components for a finished item and therefore, needed. Things that are needed have a value associated with them.</P> <P>That said, I would be more than happy to entertain any official posts that you have seen, that state clearly, that harvesting was never meant to provide players with any compensation other than crafting materials for themselves and rares.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Ijiamee on <span class=date_text>03-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:49 PM</span>

[Speak]

<DIV>Harvesting was never intended as an income  - thats why the stuff is NO-VALUE!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No you are wrong. In very early beta and theoughout most of beta resources had a coin value and at one time there were no harvest restrictions based on levels.  The change to No-value resources was to get players to sell resources to craft people.   When harvests had resell value to game merchants, many players just sold to the NPC's and did not bother to broker resources. There were raw material shortages due to selling. Harvesting was considered adventurer work  and still is considered a part of the advenyurer cash flow.  Crafters were never expected to have to harvest because of risk and time. A crafter could harvest but that was optional.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If harvested resources have no value, then they would be no reason for many people to harvest other then to search for certain rare resources, mainly for armor and spells.  There would be no reason to harvest food or alchem resources.  The economy would be even worst.</DIV>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Speaker wrote:<BR> <DIV> *snipped*</DIV> <DIV>  When harvests had resell value to game merchants, many players just sold to the NPC's and did not bother to broker resources.</DIV> <DIV>*snipped*</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The reason that they took the coin value away is my prove for SOEs intention not to make harvesting an income - otherwise they could have introduced <FONT color=#ffcc00>copper coin roots </FONT>(or <FONT color=#66ffff>silver coin bushes </FONT>for tier 2 etc.....and thinking of it I guess the majority of the players posting here would greatly appreciate something like that :smileyvery-happy: )</P> <P>Income per definition is not <EM>everything </EM>that can be done to earn money - it has to have a regular, steady, predictable basis.</P> <P>Selling harvests to NPCs is an income as the moment you harvest you know exactly that and how much money you get.</P> <P>Putting stuff on the broker because no NPC pays a single copper is no income, as its possible that no one will buy it for years.</P> <P>If someone isists that harvesting in EQ2 is a *job* that provides an income then begging in RL is also a *job* that provides an income.<BR></P>

[Speak]

<DIV>If someone isists that harvesting in EQ2 is a *job* that provides an income then begging in RL is also a *job* that provides an income.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All I can say is this. I was in early beta, starting in July.  At that time with less then 400 or 500 testers playing, there were a lot of discussions on crafting and the economy between the designers and the testers..  Harvesting is considered an income source for adventurers.  In my case up until the big change I earned over 19 phat doing nothing but harvesting.  The demand was so great for some resources, the items were pre-sold.   Of course one advantage I had was being in the new zones ahead of most players.   Crafters were leveling way faster then most adventurers, so demand was great and supply was limited.  In time prices did drop due more players gaining the levels and skill to harvest.    The  demand was created by the writs.   Early on crafters were concerned that players would not buy much of their products, especially low level crafters.  Writs were a way for crafters to earn money other then selling to players or have to go out and hunt.  Writs created way too much cash flow to the point it made more sense to do writ then to sell to players.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The basic problem is crafting was one of the last functions put into the game and was never tested by much at all.  Some features were installed 1 or 2 days before the game went live.  All these changes we see now is a effort on SOE's part to fix the design.  They are trying to find a way to balance the money supple and I think they went a little over board.</DIV>

[Speak]

<DIV>If someone isists that harvesting in EQ2 is a *job* that provides an income then begging in RL is also a *job* that provides an income.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All I can say is this. I was in early beta, starting in July.  At that time with less then 400 or 500 testers playing, there were a lot of discussions on crafting and the economy between the designers and the testers..  Harvesting is considered an income source for adventurers.  In my case up until the big change I earned over 19 phat doing nothing but harvesting.  The demand was so great for some resources, the items were pre-sold.   Of course one advantage I had was being in the new zones ahead of most players.   Crafters were leveling way faster then most adventurers, so demand was great and supply was limited.  In time prices did drop due more players gaining the levels and skill to harvest.    The  demand was created by the writs.   Early on crafters were concerned that players would not buy much of their products, especially low level crafters.  Writs were a way for crafters to earn money other then selling to players or have to go out and hunt.  Writs created way too much cash flow to the point it made more sense to do writ then to sell to players.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The basic problem is crafting was one of the last functions put into the game and was never tested by much at all.  Some features were installed 1 or 2 days before the game went live.  All these changes we see now is a effort on SOE's part to fix the design.  They are trying to find a way to balance the money supple and I think they went a little over board.</DIV>

[Kibbst]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Speaker wrote:<BR> <DIV> *snipped*</DIV> <DIV>  When harvests had resell value to game merchants, many players just sold to the NPC's and did not bother to broker resources.</DIV> <DIV>*snipped*</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The reason that they took the coin value away is my prove for SOEs intention not to make harvesting an income - otherwise they could have introduced <FONT color=#ffcc00>copper coin roots </FONT>(or <FONT color=#66ffff>silver coin bushes </FONT>for tier 2 etc.....and thinking of it I guess the majority of the players posting here would greatly appreciate something like that :smileyvery-happy: )</P> <P>Income per definition is not <EM>everything </EM>that can be done to earn money - it has to have a regular, steady, predictable basis.</P> <P>Selling harvests to NPCs is an income as the moment you harvest you know exactly that and how much money you get.</P> <P>Putting stuff on the broker because no NPC pays a single copper is no income, as its possible that no one will buy it for years.</P> <P>If someone isists that harvesting in EQ2 is a *job* that provides an income then begging in RL is also a *job* that provides an income.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Sorry you are wrong.</P> <P>Harvesting *was* an income for a lot of adventurers, they would go out and harvest whilst adventuring or sometimes instead of adventuring.</P> <P>The adventurers would then sell those materials to the crafters so the crafters could make lots of nice food, drink and equipment for the adventurers to then buy with the money made from harvesting and go out adventurering.</P> <P>An economy is a circle, it's self perpetuating if balanced, adventurers made money to buy adventuring equipment and crafters made money from the adventurers from making the equipment using the materials harvesters/adventurers had gathered - In short everyone made some money and the economy continued.</P> <P>Having dedicated harvesters/adventurers leaves the crafters with more time to do what they do to make money from adventuers.</P> <P> </P> <P>But that's it now, for two days straight I haven't sold a single harvestable on the market - First time since I started this game in November last year.</P> <P>And you know what - Why the hell should I bother risking my neck to save time for the crafters and make a little money for myself when the crafters aren't willing to pay.</P> <P>Thats fine, crafters can take a day or two out of the busy crafting xp time to go to Zek/EL ,where ever, bend over to harvest and get jumped by lots of nasty beasties instead of me doing it.</P> <P>Looks like as I can't make any money for kit anymore I'll have to only wear drops, or free gifts from my guilds cos I'm not contributing to an economy that only works one way, I don't want to but have no choice I wont be able to afford upgrades due to not selling harvestables anymore.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[RioR]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ijiamee wrote:<BR> <DIV>T5 harvestables are worth right clicking on and selecting "Destroy". Harvesting used to be profitable, and that justified that time spent looking for rares to upgrade armor, weapons, or spells. Now, it is literally the most unrewarding aspect of eq2.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe, when adept3's are actually an upgrade, harvesting for 0 profit will somehow seem rewarding.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Harvesting was never intended as an income  - thats why the stuff is NO-VALUE!<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>You are very incorrect. They have NO-VALUE on them so that you will sell them to other players and not to NPC. That way SOE made sure the harvested items are being fed into the crafting machine. This keeps the cycle going. Instead of players just harvesting and selling to NPC thus ending the cycle into a dead end. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yet it no longer matters as SOE found a faster way to break the economy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Most of your post show lack of basic economic knowledge. Also a tendency to support that crafters should rule a game who's foundation was built on the backs of adventurers. As EQ2 would not be here if not for the adventuring part of the game. That's what EQ2 is supposed to be about...adventuring and questing. Crafting was just suppose to help support the adventuring and questing. Now crafting has taken over and ruin the game. Welcome to Evercraft.</DIV><p>Message Edited by RioRio on <span class=date_text>03-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:51 AM</span>

[Nis]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kibbster wrote:<BR><BR> <P>But that's it now, for two days straight I haven't sold a single harvestable on the market - First time since I started this game in November last year.</P> <P>And you know what - Why the hell should I bother risking my neck to save time for the crafters and make a little money for myself when the crafters aren't willing to pay.</P> <P>Thats fine, crafters can take a day or two out of the busy crafting xp time to go to Zek/EL ,where ever, bend over to harvest and get jumped by lots of nasty beasties instead of me doing it.</P> <P>Looks like as I can't make any money for kit anymore I'll have to only wear drops, or free gifts from my guilds cos I'm not contributing to an economy that only works one way, I don't want to but have no choice I wont be able to afford upgrades due to not selling harvestables anymore.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Part of the reason harvestables arent selling that well is that crafters are having diffuculty selling their wares. When SOE improves the quality of crafted items, I'll bet that sales pick up.  Here is a scenario for you: As a t4 weaponsmith, I sell approx. 1 feyiron weapon a night. I only need around 6 units of feyiron for that. I buy more, but thats for grinding and I lose money on that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The other side of it is that there is usually a harvester who comes on and dumps their harvestable extremely cheap. Like under 10cp per unit just to get rid of it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>These are the reasons you may have problems selling your harvestables, not crafter greed.</DIV>

[Kibbst]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nisra wrote:<BR> <DIV>Part of the reason harvestables arent selling that well is that crafters are having diffuculty selling their wares. When SOE improves the quality of crafted items, I'll bet that sales pick up.  Here is a scenario for you: As a t4 weaponsmith, I sell approx. 1 feyiron weapon a night. I only need around 6 units of feyiron for that. I buy more, but thats for grinding and I lose money on that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The other side of it is that there is usually a harvester who comes on and dumps their harvestable extremely cheap. Like under 10cp per unit just to get rid of it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>These are the reasons you may have problems selling your harvestables, not crafter greed.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Thank you Nisra,</P> <P>I was wondering what had changed so dramatically recently, not being a crafter myself I haven't really been following the recent changes (nerfs) to tradeskillers.</P> <P>I don't mean to blame crafters it's just that I am frustrated with how it seems everything that is fun for me is being taken away by SOE for one reason or another, I guess at the moment lots of others from all walks of EQ2 life are being whacked with the bat :smileysad:</P> <P>And undercutting has never really been too much of a problem until now, The demand seemed high enough that reasonably priced resources were selling, I was never going to be rich but I got by.</P> <P>But now there is no demand.</P> <P> </P> <P>I really hope things settle down before people start leaving what was/could be a fantastic game.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Silad]

<DIV>this is my 2cp`s take it as you wish, people are still in the mindset with harvesting that crafters will make profit with sellback to vendor.. ill be honest im leveling my provisioner to 50 because my adventurer is 48 so all the food and drink i make before 40 is purely for leveling at t4 now the food sells back for about 50 c a unit ... harvesters still have them listed as 5-30 silver a raw per unit now thats a huge money sink.. yes i see provisioners sell those for 23-60 silver for t4 final food but then again they dont move and stay on the broker for ages... maybe if crafters realise the econy has changed and lower their prices they will sell more also harvesters need to realise that a raw shallot isent workth 20 silver anymore and lower theirs... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i think in retrospect once people realise that they can still make money just not [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] fast and that the market readjust, i  think things should work out. i know crafters will [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] at me and say well i spend x amount of hours to craft and i should be rewarded for it. You are right just stop with the old minset that you can make a ton of plat again. anyone who thinks i dont know what im talking about pls realise i have a 37 weaponsmith 50 alchemist and 36 provisioner... so yes i craft alot and also know alot about the market on my server. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>there is no point to constantly complain how bad the economy is if we dont do something about it waiting for a miracle is useless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>crafters lower your price make things affordable again.. and harvesters do the same realise how much stuff sell back to vendors. ask around then place your raws at 20% of sell back price witch is descent.. you will sell out crafters will purchase u out we need to stick together instead of [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing at each other.. lets face it everyone is working towards t5 . maybe im wrong maybe im dumb this was just my 2cp take it for what it is ... an opinion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[chaoticgodde]

<DIV>Ok  this is my issue with gatherers... and YES it is supposed to be an income in my opinion problem is this... i have a lvl 29 provisioner that uses alot of fayberries and blue succulents going price on my server has stayed and been around 5sp per to 10sp per one blue succulent or fayberry now... considering that most adventurers do not want 3 hour drinks because of course they are gonna be more costly because it takes more combines and longer to make and not only that but when you dye how good was that 3 hour drink? not very cuz its then gone and you have to starte a new drink a waist of your cash.. so the would rather pay less and only buy the 40min to 1 hour drinks cant say i blame them much i make the same timed drinks for myself when adventuring because i feel like i waisted my time making that long drink that took as many combines as it takes to make a pristine ink... NOW saying all that i sell my tier 3 drinks for 5sp per hour.  how am i to make a profit when the blue succulent is selling for about or way more then what i am charging OK so then i decide up my prices i get less buisness because right now there are price wars going on and everyone is under cutting everyone just to make a buck... so i am still stuck selling my drinks at 5sp per hour pretty much so whos making the profit if i pay the harvester THEY ARE and not me that means every time i sell my drink i dont make anything but loose money for fuel costs and vender supplies to make them... now since the patch my provisioner has seen 1g of wich all went in two days to pay for supplies and her books so now shes broke... of course im not going to pay the harvesters thats just greedy to charge that much for a tier 3 item i could see a tier 5 item costing that much but not a tier 3 then you have the really crazy people that want to sell it for 1g per and yes i have seen it on the broker for that much the more harvesters charge the more it brings up the cost of things problem is at the end of the night everyone looks on the broker price compares and says hey they are selling for so much i will drop it by a few coin be cheaper and make cash.  If harvesters want to stay in buisness they need to find a decent price to sell at i personally can tell you i have dropped 1g easy and happily into a private harvesters hands for a few stacks of drink raws but BECAUSE he was reasonable on his prices... so... if you want to know why crafters are not buying?? moneys not there like it used to be and you guys are charging the same prices if not more you cant exspect with the way the new system is to make tons of cash off of crafters that are going broke just to lvl and as for the comment that harvesting is not a steady income then crafting isnt either because you dont have any guarentees that your items are going to sell at night when you broker i have had a few nights where i busted and didnt sell not one item.... </DIV> <DIV>Point is plain and simple ya wanna make cash be reasonable <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>by the way i could care less about my grammer so dont spout about it <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Vecsus_E]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Siladin wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>there is no point to constantly complain how bad the economy is if we dont do something about it waiting for a miracle is useless.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Miracles don't just happen in EQ2.  The masses won't suddenly do the right thing and lower prices to a reasonable mark.    The crafter economy is broken because there are tons of supplies coming into the system but nothing going out.  People unload thousands and thousands of raw materials but purchase NONE of the resulting finished items.  In 10 days off selling (at night while I sleep and while at work during the day) I have sold 2 Tier 5 woodworker items.  1 Teak longbow and 1 teak buckler, each priced at just 4g.  Simply pathetic.  The reason no one wants crafted items is that they can very easily obtain better gear through quests and dropped loot.  That is why the economy is screwed up.  </P> <P>So yes, it will require a miracle to fix the economy.  That miracle would have to come from SOE, not from the players.  They will have to buff crafted items to the point where they are worth using by the masses.  But instead of helping the crafters, they continually screw us by messing with fuel prices and sell-back values.  Raising the cost of my fuel from 4c to 9s drives my prices to a point where few will pay to compensate for that increase in production cost.  People are used to buying items at the 4c fuel price and will not understand or accept the increase in cost necessary to cover my expenses.  And I am just talking about trying to break even on crafting.  Let's not even get into the profitability aspects of it.  I can make 10g per hour and gain exp from hunting solo trash in RV or Feerrott.  Try making that kind of profit at the crafting tables.  </P> <P>To sum it up...if we are waiting on a miracle then look in the patch notes from SOE, not from some messiah-figure that actually plays the game.  It just won't happen from our end.  Getting 350k+ players to change without external influence is impossible.  Just ask Alan Greenspan.</P> <P><BR></P>

[Kibbst]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vecsus_EQ2 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P> The reason no one wants crafted items is that they can very easily obtain better gear through quests and dropped loot.  That is why the economy is screwed up.  </P> <P> </P> <P><BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I really do think that Crafted gear should be so much better than any general loot.</P> <P>I love crafted gear and always have, 99.99% of loot I get is vendor junk that I sell to an NPC to clear space, but crafted stuff is way better than most loot.</P> <P>Which is exactly how it should be.</P> <P>As for harvesting prices I used to sell Antonica harvests at 25c, TS and Nek at 1s, Zek and EL at 5s.</P> <P>It always seemed to sell well, so I thought that was a fair price.</P> <P>I could make on average 1-2 gold every 24hours (More if I found a rare or two.) but that money all went back to the crafters on shiny armour, spells and equipment for all 4 of my characters. (Once the horses were nerfed I stopped saving for one and spent it all on player made stuff.)</P> <P>I never bought non stat items, so loved buying crafted stuff.</P> <P>That's what I don't understand.... The ecomomy "seemed" to be working, then it looks like crafting was nerfed and that's had a huge knock on effect through everything including harvesting.</P> <P> </P> <P>So can a crafter tell me how much I should charge for the above harvests so they can still make a profit but it still has to be worth my time and effort too.</P> <P>It would be nice for eveyone to support each other crafting or adventuring.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[NytarDev]

<DIV>Plain and simple explaination.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> you say that you wont gather any more or buy crafted goods... well good luck on being second rate for the better part of your EQII lifetime. the reason you not selling your goods is pittiful "It dont pay well enough for me to harvest" hmm well less supplies means a raise across the crafting board.. crafters spend more time waiting for their supplies or spend several hours self gathering.. means larger costs for thier time and the reduced availability of thier product. let me put this in a more modern system ya'll will comprehend.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Wal-Mart "sells for less" and thier "meet or beat" ideals have made the family RICH... why? easy they SELL... more then Kmart more then Alco more then Gibsons... (for those under 20 these are now dead or dieing stores casue of the greed mentalities) they cried and complained they cant sell for those prices cause thier net per item would be lowered... all the while Wal-Mart is selling at a lower net and gaining costomers and selling MORE products and gaining a over all larger net....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Am I saying to sell your raw materials at a copper per? NO... just dont be complaining your not able to selling your T3 raws at 5 sp per.... its bad enough on the crafters they spend more on the fuels to make item(s) that sell for less to the vendor then they spent to make it... now you want them to go broke faster cause the vendor dont figure in the per raw cost of material... it costed my alchemist wife over a plat to lvl from 30-38 and is now near broke... but when you figure 3.75 combines at a fuel cost of 2s30c per combine then can only get 7s back from vendor this doesnt even cover fuel cost then you figure .75 of the combines takes roots at 1-2silver per and opaline/velium for 1-2silver per.. what am I getting at? well if your following me so far is there aint a market in vending obviously like there used to be.. so they gotta raise thier cost of items to the adventures... then adventures complain about costs.. they raise thier prices of gathered goods... crafters raise... adv raise.. ect ect ect.. some call this a domino effect when in effect its more like a snowball headed down hill.. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I know 2 lvl 50 crafters that since the changes in crafting was actualy bragging that they now make 25 gold in 3 days of brokering thier goods (they USED to make nearly a plat a day I guess they was being synical) and these two are on for most of the day either crafting or brokering... all the while I had talked to a lvl 44 necro that gathers between kills and wandering around he said he didnt like to broker the stuff but made 15 gold in a night just off that.. he gave me a bunch of raws for t3 which in turn lowered my wifes and my own prices to the adventures..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> there are a few ways things can go at this point...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A) adventures continue raising costs of raws raising the prices of end market items and later cutting out anyone that dont self gather and making a limited market availability.... another words you wont have those goods when you need them</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>B) adventures sell at a reasonable cost and prices lower and end cost and availability are more suitable to the adventures which means less time hooked up to a broker and selling out of the raws faster less bank space used for raws and more space in thier packs and some (albeit smaller) profit in thier pocket to afford items (crafted and adventured).... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>C) SOE makes another type of wholesaler that buys from the advenutes based on tier of item determans the price the adv/gatherer recieces. then wholesaler charges 10-20% for thier fee and resales it to the crafter.. set costs also stabilizes market (for the most part) this can be passed on to other raws such as rares (rare raws chance of being harvested multiplied by normal raws value = rare raws price). prices can still be hagled for over broker for those with the greed problems and the whole saler can be saved for server resets with the other characters ect. this would also keep the adventures pockets and banks from getting to full... <BR>      1) Optional on SOEs part of adding possible low value xp for every so many raws turned in to wholesaler based on tier of raw...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Personaly I vote for C due to the fact there would be less issues as to what is worth what. adv not pointin fingers at crafters and vice versa... does this make sence to anyone else?</DIV>

[Nim]

The main reason what has knackered the Harvesting trade is simply... They got rid of workshop/Guild tasks what paid decent money..This has hit Harvesters not jsut workshop/guild writ doers..Provisioners went from good money to - nothing.. Same for other classes..The other big reason was all classes are now independant.. So people who bought good stuff from say Alchemists can now make it themselves.. So basically some crafts are "redundant" - Alchemist springs to mind..And yes crafted items are just no competition to dropped items.. why not make them similar to standard drop items? That way adventurers can choose between drop items and crafted.. Like some might be better str, while others of same type better agil.. But if similar people will actually look at crafted items.. Only one i'm not mentioning is Armorers.. They have benefitted msot from the patch.. No more selling old armors.. It seems everyone is wearing Fulginate armor at lvl 40-50..Oh make drinks regen in battle hehe.. Then thye will sell..

[Vecsus_E]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RioRio wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>As EQ2 would not be here if not for the adventuring part of the game. That's what EQ2 is supposed to be about...adventuring and questing. Crafting was just suppose to help support the adventuring and questing. Now crafting has taken over and ruin the game. Welcome to Evercraft.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Yes, the root of the EQ-style game is Adventuring.  But when EQ2 was released, crafting was one of the big selling points.  I agree that crafting is, in part, ruining the in-game economy.  But that is SOE's fault, not the players.  You say that crafting was supposed to support adventuring and question and I agree.  But how many pieces of crafted equipment are you using?  How many crafted spells/skills?  Crafted arrows?  Poisons, Totems, potions?  I have a habit of inspecting people I group with just to see what kind of gear they use.  More than 75% of the equipment I see is dropped/quested.  This is simply unacceptable considering tradeskills were billed as an integral part of the game.  I partially blame players for being too cheap, too lazy, and too stupid to check the vendor for crafted items which are often better than what they are using.  But mostly I blame SOE for providing easily attainable gear from drops and quests.  And as of todays patch that gets even worse since they have added nenw sets of gear on solo and small-group mobs.  Add the renerf of the tradeskill fuel costs and one must wonder why they don't just remove the crafting system altogether.  Leave in the ability to craft rares and food...people still seem to want those.  Other than those, the non-rare crafted weapon, armor, and shields are undesired by the masses.</DIV>

[Bhagpuss]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vecsus_EQ2 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RioRio wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>As EQ2 would not be here if not for the adventuring part of the game. That's what EQ2 is supposed to be about...adventuring and questing. Crafting was just suppose to help support the adventuring and questing. Now crafting has taken over and ruin the game. Welcome to Evercraft.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Yes, the root of the EQ-style game is Adventuring.  But when EQ2 was released, crafting was one of the big selling points.  I agree that crafting is, in part, ruining the in-game economy.  But that is SOE's fault, not the players.  You say that crafting was supposed to support adventuring and question and I agree.  But how many pieces of crafted equipment are you using?  How many crafted spells/skills?  Crafted arrows?  Poisons, Totems, potions?  I have a habit of inspecting people I group with just to see what kind of gear they use.  More than 75% of the equipment I see is dropped/quested.  This is simply unacceptable considering tradeskills were billed as an integral part of the game.  I partially blame players for being too cheap, too lazy, and too stupid to check the vendor for crafted items which are often better than what they are using.  But mostly I blame SOE for providing easily attainable gear from drops and quests.  And as of todays patch that gets even worse since they have added nenw sets of gear on solo and small-group mobs.  Add the renerf of the tradeskill fuel costs and one must wonder why they don't just remove the crafting system altogether.  Leave in the ability to craft rares and food...people still seem to want those.  Other than those, the non-rare crafted weapon, armor, and shields are undesired by the masses.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Personally, I tend to wear whatever I get as drops while adventuring. My 30th Templar is wearing a no-stat blue con Brigandine BP that dropped off some animal in Steppes, for example.</P> <P>I don't really like to buy crafted armor, especially since the Attuning change, for the simple reason that if I go to the broker every few levels and upgrade all my armor with crafted stuff (which is generally cheap, plentiful and good quality) then my chances of getting a drop good enough to replace any of it is almost non-existent. This in turn removes the main reason for me going adventuring in the first place.</P> <P>While it may be practical to go and get kitted out in all-yellow con armor before you go treasure hunting, when the treasure you get turns out to be nowhere as good as what you bought to go and get it, the whole process starts to seem a bit farcical.</P> <P>I do buy some crafted pieces to fill jewellery slots, and as a Provisioner I  have earned plenty of money to buy a good deal more, but on the whole I'd rather have poor quality armor I got myself while adventuring than better stuff I bought off the broker.</P> <P>I would certainly wear crafted armor I had made myself, but with the stupid one-character-one-tradeskill system we have in EQ2, that's not really an option.<BR></P>

[Kibbst]

<DIV>Woah!</DIV> <DIV>Steady on with the attack mode, I was just asking becuase I have no idea of the costs involved in crafting so found a price my materials sold at and kept them at that price ( I went out of my way to avoid under cutting in the hope that I was doing my best to help stabalise the market and hold it a little steady without spiraling inflation.)</DIV> <DIV>The fact that they were selling at that price meant (In my view anyway) that they must have been fairly priced or the crafter could have gone else where right?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So don't start accusing me of being a capitalist pig, I was just supplying a product at a price that people seemed to be happy with, no no one wants it at that price now I was wondering why.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And fine I'll go and buy my 12 slot bags at a few g each and spend my evenings filling them if they will sell at a price that can support me in game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You make your money from crafting I make my money from harvesting, that's what I do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you want to go and harvest your own goods then fine be my guest no one is forced to buy harvested stuff (They can easily get it for free like I do)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like I said supply and demand, there was always alot of demand for the service I provided, now there isn't.</DIV> <DIV>That's something that if it doesnt change I'll have to adapt or leave, simple.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is only so much gear I can carry and sell at once if I spend an evening harvesting and earn myself a few copper for it, then it's not a worthwhile investment of my time, just as I fully expect to pay a crafter for their time in crafting I expect anyone who buys harvestables to pay for my time because I don't think a crafter/adventurers time is any more important than anyone elses.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Vecsus_E]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bhagpuss wrote:<BR><BR> <P>Personally, I tend to wear whatever I get as drops while adventuring. My 30th Templar is wearing a no-stat blue con Brigandine BP that dropped off some animal in Steppes, for example.</P> <P>I don't really like to buy crafted armor, especially since the Attuning change, for the simple reason that if I go to the broker every few levels and upgrade all my armor with crafted stuff (which is generally cheap, plentiful and good quality) then my chances of getting a drop good enough to replace any of it is almost non-existent. This in turn removes the main reason for me going adventuring in the first place.</P> <P>While it may be practical to go and get kitted out in all-yellow con armor before you go treasure hunting, when the treasure you get turns out to be nowhere as good as what you bought to go and get it, the whole process starts to seem a bit farcical.</P> <P>I do buy some crafted pieces to fill jewellery slots, and as a Provisioner I  have earned plenty of money to buy a good deal more, but on the whole I'd rather have poor quality armor I got myself while adventuring than better stuff I bought off the broker.</P> <P>I would certainly wear crafted armor I had made myself, but with the stupid one-character-one-tradeskill system we have in EQ2, that's not really an option.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Wow...it's this kind of ignorance that kills the crafting community.  Personally, if I notice someone in my group is wearing no-stat junk armor, I replace them. It shows a blatent disregard for being effective in a group.  Less stats means less damage, less power, less HP.  You are a liability to a group if you are not using at least the most basic stat-giving armor.  And the incentive to adventure is not just to get drops, it's to level and progress.  And there is no need to get new crafted armor "every few levels".  Crafted weapons and armor are good for a full 10 levels.   I'd tell you not to take my comments personally, but that would be misleading.<BR>

[Ethelwo]

<DIV>This brings up a point I made in another post. Harvesters need to be a trade class: Artisan, Harvester, Miner or lumberjack, or fisherman, etc. There should be rare items included in all harvestable types. You get trade experience for harvesting, not skill upgrades that are tied to your adventure level. This will balance the market and give adventurers a trade skill that fits their desire for exploring and adventuring. Loot items that drop off mobs are not concidered harvestables, so anyone can loot them. Until Harvesting becomes a trade of it's own, then Harvesting will never be worth while.</DIV>

[Kibbst]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bhagpuss wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Personally, I tend to wear whatever I get as drops while adventuring. My 30th Templar is wearing a no-stat blue con Brigandine BP that dropped off some animal in Steppes, for example.</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I don't really like to buy crafted armor, especially since the Attuning change, for the simple reason that if I go to the broker every few levels and upgrade all my armor with crafted stuff (which is generally cheap, plentiful and good quality) then my chances of getting a drop good enough to replace any of it is almost non-existent. This in turn removes the main reason for me going adventuring in the first place.</P> <P>While it may be practical to go and get kitted out in all-yellow con armor before you go treasure hunting, when the treasure you get turns out to be nowhere as good as what you bought to go and get it, the whole process starts to seem a bit farcical.</P> <P>I do buy some crafted pieces to fill jewellery slots, and as a Provisioner I  have earned plenty of money to buy a good deal more, but on the whole I'd rather have poor quality armor I got myself while adventuring than better stuff I bought off the broker.</P> <P>I would certainly wear crafted armor I had made myself, but with the stupid one-character-one-tradeskill system we have in EQ2, that's not really an option.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm sorry I disagree, I have spent time with non stat loot whilst waiting to ding 20 so I could wear new armour class and it really does make adventuring harder.</P> <P>I believe 110% in wearing crafted stat armour and equipment, I try and keep as much Orange as possible as soon as it goes white/blue it gets junked.</P> <P>Well with my new character I'm holding out to 20 to get all new crafted armour and I can't wait.</P> <P>I don't consider loot as useable, it's generally total crap.</P> <P>Junking armour as soon as it turns white/blue is an expensive habit but when I go adventuring I want to be doing it to the best of my abilities and equipment - I also believe in supporting tradeskillers and giving them a living, in turn they help me adventure.</P> <P>(Of course I have to make money from harvestables to continue to keep my gear Orange)</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P> <p>Message Edited by Kibbster on <span class=date_text>03-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:23 AM</span>

[chaoticgodde]

<DIV>ummm not being well equiped will get you killed for instance if your not well equiped when i inspect you before grouping i am gonna say well he doesnt have app IV in his taunts ect... and my healer would die these people i DONT group with saddly i dont see how people can say they cant afford equipment when tier 2 stuff lvls 10-20 i sell with my lvl 19 outfitter for 15sp for leggings and chest and 10sp per for all other parts so your telling me you cant afford that? i can make that at lvl 10-13 with my lower lvls hunting orcs or skellies in about an hour... i get tired of hearing the exscuse there have been many of times where i have seen footman leggings ( pants you get on the island of refuge) on a lvl 18!!! ok so your telling me all those lvls and you cant afford like 70sp total for an outfit?  thats bad... and at higher lvls i can make a few gold in no time... personally that does kill the crafting profession with that mentality... maybe thats why i can duoing my armor quests at lvls 20-24  when everyone else is dying LOL im not saying to buy all rares and make rare armor altho i have done it with one of my characters and it was really realy nice and lasted me way past lvl 20... (stat wise) just saying that i know for a fact that prices are not that crazy and no... i dont always give hand outs but geeze i dont want xp debt either! when people say that they are going to just wear the dropped items that hurts the economy the most hurts the havesters AND the crafters... i personally am thinking of having a mass crafters acution selling low to get players addicted to the crafted stuff on my server maybe if we all ban together crafters and harvesters and try this it might help the economy some (saddly my count now for higher lvls wearing stuff that they came off the island for is rising in the past week i have seen 20 players like that) and no i dont think the whole looking for work thing is gonna work because not many use the lfg status as it is they shout out what they need... same principle lets go to some areas and try to sell reasonable and low to get them hooked... hey walmart has sales we can too <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and NO i dont care about my grammer....</DIV>

[NytarDev]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ethelwolf wrote:<BR> <DIV>This brings up a point I made in another post. Harvesters need to be a trade class: Artisan, Harvester, Miner or lumberjack, or fisherman, etc. There should be rare items included in all harvestable types. You get trade experience for harvesting, not skill upgrades that are tied to your adventure level. This will balance the market and give adventurers a trade skill that fits their desire for exploring and adventuring. Loot items that drop off mobs are not concidered harvestables, so anyone can loot them. Until Harvesting becomes a trade of it's own, then Harvesting will never be worth while.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>that would devestate the crafters market and questing in many areas..  there are SEVERAL gathering quests and wuests you need those skills for.. like "these boots were made for walking...." (dwarven workboots) and several T3 areas have quests you need to gather stuff for NPCs... also you are talking about limiting the resources availability yet even more... those "gatherers" would then be setting market prices and you have the down hill snowball all over again and the one losing out is the person that wants to strait adventure... I would however see a good reason for a "special harvesting class" that would raise the likelyhood of a rare find or able to gather faster/more per node/reach action... that would make it worth while being able to gather faster and aquire more rares then the average Joe would. as well as bring more to market making it more accessable and give alot of people something to put into thier crafting xp line instead of being Lvl 50 adventure and Lvl 3 artisan. and XP for gathering class would be worth the time and make it a class in itself but only as a bonus prority.. to seperate it that far you would crash the market due to availability....</P>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RioRio wrote:<BR> <BR> <DIV>*snipped*</DIV> <DIV>Most of your post show lack of basic economic knowledge. <FONT color=#99ff00>(now this makes me chuckle since I have a degree from Viennas academy for advertising&marketing and because I work for the chamber of commerce of vienna for 5 years now - but i guess RL doesnt count here :smileyvery-happy: ) </FONT>Also a tendency to support that crafters should rule a game who's foundation was built on the backs of adventurers. As EQ2 would not be here if not for the adventuring part of the game. That's what EQ2 is supposed to be about...adventuring and questing. Crafting was just suppose to help support the adventuring and questing. Now crafting has taken over and ruin the game. Welcome to Evercraft.<BR>*snipped*</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kibbster wrote:<BR>*snipped*<BR>The adventurers would then sell those materials to the crafters so the crafters could make lots of nice food, drink and equipment for the adventurers to then buy with the money made from harvesting and go out adventurering. <P>An economy is a circle, it's self perpetuating if balanced, adventurers made money to buy adventuring equipment and crafters made money from the adventurers from making the equipment using the materials harvesters/adventurers had gathered - In short everyone made some money and the economy continued.</P> <P>Having dedicated harvesters/adventurers leaves the crafters with more time to do what they do to make money from adventuers.<BR> *snipped<BR> <HR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <P>This are ridiculous statements since the game was designed for players like me (= 22nd Templar, 21st tailor).  Thats why SOE dropped their initial plans to make artisans as a class of its own and decided that everyone can lvl as an adventurer and a crafter simultaneously (=players like myself).</P> <P>Reading your posts about *crafters* and *adventureres* makes me think that instead of playing the game you get your information from 2003 EQ2 dev notes. </P> <P>Can you please explain to me where you got that ridiculous picture of crafters who never leave the instance????? They are not on Lucan i can assure you as most folks in the instances wear full armor and weaponry.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P></FONT>

[NytarDev]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bhagpuss wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, the root of the EQ-style game is Adventuring.  But when EQ2 was released, crafting was one of the big selling points.  I agree that crafting is, in part, ruining the in-game economy.  But that is SOE's fault, not the players.  You say that crafting was supposed to support adventuring and question and I agree.  But how many pieces of crafted equipment are you using?  How many crafted spells/skills?  Crafted arrows?  Poisons, Totems, potions?  I have a habit of inspecting people I group with just to see what kind of gear they use.  More than 75% of the equipment I see is dropped/quested.  This is simply unacceptable considering tradeskills were billed as an integral part of the game.  I partially blame players for being too cheap, too lazy, and too stupid to check the vendor for crafted items which are often better than what they are using.  But mostly I blame SOE for providing easily attainable gear from drops and quests.  And as of todays patch that gets even worse since they have added nenw sets of gear on solo and small-group mobs.  Add the renerf of the tradeskill fuel costs and one must wonder why they don't just remove the crafting system altogether.  Leave in the ability to craft rares and food...people still seem to want those.  Other than those, the non-rare crafted weapon, armor, and shields are undesired by the masses.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Personally, I tend to wear whatever I get as drops while adventuring. My 30th Templar is wearing a no-stat blue con Brigandine BP that dropped off some animal in Steppes, for example.</P> <P>I don't really like to buy crafted armor, especially since the Attuning change, for the simple reason that if I go to the broker every few levels and upgrade all my armor with crafted stuff (which is generally cheap, plentiful and good quality) then my chances of getting a drop good enough to replace any of it is almost non-existent. This in turn removes the main reason for me going adventuring in the first place.</P> <P>While it may be practical to go and get kitted out in all-yellow con armor before you go treasure hunting, when the treasure you get turns out to be nowhere as good as what you bought to go and get it, the whole process starts to seem a bit farcical.</P> <P>I do buy some crafted pieces to fill jewellery slots, and as a Provisioner I  have earned plenty of money to buy a good deal more, but on the whole I'd rather have poor quality armor I got myself while adventuring than better stuff I bought off the broker.</P> <P>I would certainly wear crafted armor I had made myself, but with the stupid one-character-one-tradeskill system we have in EQ2, that's not really an option.<BR></P> <P><BR> <HR> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>so what app/adept lvls do you have? if your a tank thinking that blue is cool your sadly mistaking and if your taunts are not up to par the healer/DPS is likely to die raising thier costs in repairs and everyone xp debt... Ive seen many group wipes cause someone is to lazy to make sure that can deal with things.. if you use souly dropped items then you have huge gaps in yout taunting abilityies... if a healer you are not healing as well as someone that upgraded with APP IVs and your low wis score means less of those poor heals means longer down times and more OOM/OOP messages and more time spent getting to your shards.. blue.. ok fine.. but no stats? if your lvl 3-10 thats the norm.. if 11-20 liveable... 20+ forget it.. expect alot of solo time cause noone wants someone that cant pull thier weight in a group.. and those blue drops... they are ment to be sold to lower lvls so they have more options to upgrade..</P> <P>I might be rude as a healer when I look at the tank and see he has less AC then me to turn them down cause I dont want to die cause Im pulling more hate then they are cause of the extra need of healing and most likely thier taunts are the same as well.. </P> <P>as a tank if they aint showing the effort to increase equipent (heal apps/adepts counted in equip when making a healer) I aint wasting my time</P> <P>as DPS I look for both to have decent stuff cause if I cant use my abilitities as my class is designed cause tank cant keep tant and healer cant keep tank up Im going down... </P> <P>I love to group but with those mentalities saying know how is better then equipment and I agree knowlage is a HUGE part of it.. but lets say equipment is only 25% that means your willing to fight/heal/nuke at 75% of what your capable of? I dont give anything less then 95% of my possible effect.. and always strive for 110%.. if I am a group liability I will exscuse myself find a group I am able to do my part in hunting something smaller or soloing to raise up to the challange. My Wife and I have found that a good Duo is better, Safer, and more survivable then inviting some sub standard ignoramous into the grouping and making things worse. we finnished our last pairs AQ at lvl 23 and 24 Inquis/Zerker respectfully.. all but one mob was soloed and that was cause they wanted to join US and get help with thiers... Duoed Anders,Gul Thex Elite group, Pirate Smuggler, on our own. why? cause we could and was more effeciant then inviting or joining others that was on at the time with lvl 10 or even island equipment on.</P> <P>All I got to say is I hope I never accedently group with you or someone else like you cause your "Knowlage" aint what you make it out to be.</P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Kibbst]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kibbster wrote:<BR>*snipped*<BR>The adventurers would then sell those materials to the crafters so the crafters could make lots of nice food, drink and equipment for the adventurers to then buy with the money made from harvesting and go out adventurering.</BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>An economy is a circle, it's self perpetuating if balanced, adventurers made money to buy adventuring equipment and crafters made money from the adventurers from making the equipment using the materials harvesters/adventurers had gathered - In short everyone made some money and the economy continued.</P> <P>Having dedicated harvesters/adventurers leaves the crafters with more time to do what they do to make money from adventuers.<BR> *snipped<BR> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <P>This are ridiculous statements since the game was designed for players like me (= 22nd Templar, 21st tailor).  Thats why SOE dropped their initial plans to make artisans as a class of its own and decided that everyone can lvl as an adventurer and a crafter simultaneously (=players like myself).</P> <P>Reading your posts about *crafters* and *adventureres* makes me think that instead of playing the game you get your information from 2003 EQ2 dev notes. </P> <P>Can you please explain to me where you got that ridiculous picture of crafters who never leave the instance????? They are not on Lucan i can assure you as most folks in the instances wear full armor and weaponry.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P></FONT><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Ok I was generalising a lot there, I know many people concentrate equaly on crafting <U>and</U> adventuring.</P> <P>But the basis is sound, people adventuring *need* crafters, people crafting *need* to sell to adventurers and crafters *need* resources.</P> <P>If the person concentrates on one of the other is moot, if I was crafting at that time I would need adventurers and if I was adventuring I would need crafters.</P> <P>I dedicate my time to adventuring and harvesting to make an in-game living, that's the joy of EQ2 there are various ways to acheive results, unfortunatly the harvesting (and no doubt crafting) has been nerfed making two parts of the chain difficult and unrewarding.</P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[chaoticgodde]

<DIV>I spend all day crafting but then in the evenings i go out and adventure but i will say my highest lvl character is a lvl 38 alchemist and her adventure lvl is only lvl 19... does not mean that i dont adventure i have 6 other chatacters i play with as well one of wich is a lvl 29 provisioner again higher then her adventure lvl... but most of my characters are above lvl 20 in adventuring... so i would have to say if you see me in a crafting instance no im not gonna be all nekkie like (drafts that way) and im not gonna be only lvl 6 either and most people i have met that are crafters are the same way either they adventur first and get higher lvls then craft or vise versa... either way almost everyone i know adventures thats a crafter.... question... have you ever stepped foot into a tradeskill area??? have you ever inspected players for what classes they are??? guess not or you would see MOST lvl in both adventurer and artisan</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>NOT only that but if you just craft all the time your gonna go buggy LOL i know i did with my alch... yes i love that artisan class... but omg theres no way you can sit there and stare at a screen ( same thing over and over) and push buttons all day long day in and day out i dont care if it made you all the plat in the world just not possible....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kibbster wrote:<BR><BR> <P>*snipped*</P> <P>But the basis is sound, people adventuring *need* crafters, people crafting *need* to sell to adventurers and crafters *need* resources.</P> <P>If the person concentrates on one of the other is moot, if I was crafting at that time I would need adventurers and if I was adventuring I would need crafters.</P> <P>I dedicate my time to adventuring and harvesting to make an in-game living, that's the joy of EQ2 there are various ways to acheive results, unfortunatly the harvesting (and no doubt crafting) has been nerfed making two parts of the chain difficult and unrewarding.</P> <P>*snipped*<BR> <HR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#66cc00>Sorry but it just is not true.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66cc00>Adventurers dont need cafters because they can quest decent armor and crafters dont need adventurers because they can harvest their own raws.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66cc00>But there is a very dependent class in EQ2 - the MONEYMAKERS. And the MONEYMAKERS (no matter if they disguise as adventureres or crafters) NEED other gamers to buy their harvests/drops/crafted.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66cc00>You think they are kind of MIB who dont exist? :smileyvery-happy: THEN read through the threads and posts and you'll see that there is  much more talk about $$$ than about gameplay.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66cc00>If theres a species who ruins the game its the fu*king MONEYMAKERS, players who are so dumb and narrowminded that they <BR>a) belive an MMORPG can be won and <BR>b) think  that they definitely loose if they have less than 1000p after 12 months of EQ2....</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66cc00></FONT><BR> </P>

[Nim]

lol about moneymakers.. everyone in the game wants to make money.. So your point is moot..It's jsut that now there's is less inclination to craft as the rewards are no longer there (Workshop task payouts, increased fuel prices, class independancy for a few examples) so the crafters are annoyed that there profesiona dn the thing they been playing for a few months have been nerfed..Same for adventuring, if for example SoE reduced drop rates for armour,jewelry etc so there would be less to buy hence mroe people going crafted.. Adventurers would be annoyed..And we come to harvesters.. There is no longer any money in harvesting.. So that aspect is pointless now..I like to do all those 3.. Because i enjoy it and yes like to make some money but now i can't make any money EXCEPT only by adventuring..Of course adventuring is the most fun but that's not the point.. Crafting was meant to be half of the game.. Why else would there be 1-50 lvling of a different class under your adventure class?

[Kibbst]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kibbster wrote:<BR><BR> <P>*snipped*</P> <P>But the basis is sound, people adventuring *need* crafters, people crafting *need* to sell to adventurers and crafters *need* resources.</P> <P>If the person concentrates on one of the other is moot, if I was crafting at that time I would need adventurers and if I was adventuring I would need crafters.</P> <P>I dedicate my time to adventuring and harvesting to make an in-game living, that's the joy of EQ2 there are various ways to acheive results, unfortunatly the harvesting (and no doubt crafting) has been nerfed making two parts of the chain difficult and unrewarding.</P> <P>*snipped*<BR> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#66cc00>Sorry but it just is not true.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66cc00>Adventurers dont need cafters because they can quest decent armor and crafters dont need adventurers because they can harvest their own raws.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66cc00>But there is a very dependent class in EQ2 - the MONEYMAKERS. And the MONEYMAKERS (no matter if they disguise as adventureres or crafters) NEED other gamers to buy their harvests/drops/crafted.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66cc00>You think they are kind of MIB who dont exist? :smileyvery-happy: THEN read through the threads and posts and you'll see that there is  much more talk about $$$ than about gameplay.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66cc00>If theres a species who ruins the game its the fu*king MONEYMAKERS, players who are so dumb and narrowminded that they <BR>a) belive an MMORPG can be won and <BR>b) think  that they definitely loose if they have less than 1000p after 12 months of EQ2....</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66cc00></FONT><BR> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>No I don't think I'm wrong.<BR> <P> </P> <P>Well maybe adventurers can make do without crafters if they enjoy camping for rare drops or wearing armour with no stats and crafters need to sell their gear they make to someone....</P> <P>I think people who obsess about money in this game should probably stop playing and try real life, last time I checked money is a lot more important there :smileywink:</P> <P>But to me (i.e. someone who wants nice armour and upgraded spells) money is pretty important in game and I guess crafters also like to make money.</P> <P>Oh and if you don't want your money give it to someone else in game before it warps your mind and turns you evil or something <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Speak]

<DIV> they enjoy camping for rare drops or wearing armour with no stats and crafters need to sell their gear they make to someone....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Puzzled here with this statement.  Most of my equipment comes from high end drops and or quest and is far better then crafted.  The stats are better in most cases and the AC is as good or better.  Think I have 2-rare crafted armor items, the rest I go in the field.  No stat equipment drops is common and just sold to NPC's.  About the only current items people buy are adept III spell upgrades, and food.  Oh, in my case I collect rare furniture.  Most weapon and armor makers barely get by.</DIV>

[Speak]

<DIV> <P><FONT color=#66cc00>Tradeskill_addict</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66cc00></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#66cc00>If theres a species who ruins the game its the fu*king MONEYMAKERS, players who are so dumb and narrowminded that they <BR>a) belive an MMORPG can be won and <BR>b) think  that they definitely loose if they have less than 1000p after 12 months of EQ2....</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66cc00></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#66cc00></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#66cc00>Hmmmm, this looks like a culture difference or at the very least a personal concept on your own part.  I assume you are German.  For many of us,  making money and getting all the toys the money can buy is an important element in both game play and real life.  Different strokes for different folks.</FONT></P></DIV>

[Nim]

of course he's gonna come back with "well if you looked at my sig your bound to think i'm german"Besides yea i see your reasoning...

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Speaker wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P><FONT color=#66cc00>Hmmmm, this looks like a culture difference or at the very least a personal concept on your own part.  I assume you are German.  For many of us,  making money and getting all the toys the money can buy is an important element in both game play and real life.  Different strokes for different folks.</FONT><BR> <HR> <P></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I guess we are different because I try to earn enough RL money for my *toys* like new PCs every year or a new game (or adventure pack:smileyvery-happy: ) every month.</P> <P>I call it "work" and what I do with the toys I call "fun"</P> <P>And one must be a bloody idiot to turn the "fun" into "work" again....but as you said <FONT color=#66cc00>Different strokes for different folks.</FONT><BR></P> <P>EDIT: since I stated to work for the chamber of commerce of <EM>Vienna</EM> I still might be born german (which I am not) but I definitely dont work (and therefore live) in Germany.<BR></P> <p>Message Edited by Tradeskill_Addict on <span class=date_text>03-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:17 PM</span>

[Speak]

<DIV>Most adult games have winners and losers and of course rewards, such as Poker, Golf, Football, Baseball, etc etc. Most children games do too. To be good at any game takes effort or work.  Playing these games is also fun.  In many ways there are not many difference between gaming and  work. In fact a lot of business tactics can also be considered gaming.   I like my business, I like to game.  Both give me rewards and pleasure for the effort I put into them.   And I didnt mean anything negative about German.  I just assume this is a culture difference, or maybe just a viewpoint  difference based on where we live and what we do. </DIV>

[Mot]

<DIV>The no value on harvesting was to prevent adventurers from selling back to the vendors, obviously to supply tradeskilling.  The simple fix for this was to make harvesting directly proportional to tradeskilling level, then adventurers wouldn't have had total control on the market for each server, and tradeskillers would have been able to harvest and sell at their own prices.  Also, that would mean you don't have to be a big buff mighty level 50 to go harvest a plant you might need to make a complex potion.. the plants could be in lower level or just uncommon areas, and have a higher gathering requirement.. and also a much more complex system of gathering, not just 5 set skill levels to gather everything in the game.. breakdowns of each resource within the tier.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm sure all 6'5 280lb ripped weight lifters have PHDs in chemistry or engineering right?</DIV>