It is time to do away with shards and find a new way

[sidgb]

<DIV>I am tired of having people abandon groups after wipes making shard recovery practically impossible.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Frankly I would like to see corpses again so these losers would be forced to stick around. Or, some manner of MASSIVE experience debt for disbanding a group with shards unrecovered.</DIV>

[Eal]

<DIV>Good Post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>   When creating a game. The goal is to take out anything that is negative about the game while still making it a challenge. Ideally a perfect game would be one where everyone enjoyed every aspect of the game. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>    Shard recovery is there to provide risk to reward. The problem with shard recovery is while you are actually recovering your shard, you aren't actually playing the game enjoyably. Most of the time you are actually taking away from other people's gaming experience by detouring them to get your shard. This makes it frustrating to people who might not have even been in your group. Not only the countless hours it might have taken to get your shard back.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>    I would really look at things we do in the game and see what kind of reaction they have and are they really necessary for game play. Let's say we removed shards all together. Does this still make risk vs reward apply with out completely frustrating game play. You would want to make the risk to where it doesn't affect game play while still making it a challenge.</DIV>

[waswas-f]

Kinda morbid but corpse dragging was one of my favorite memories from eq1. Nothing like your neghborhood necro draggin a corpse through the zone to get it back to a safe spot for res.

[Brash]

<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc00ff size=2>/sigh Corpse Dragging as a Rogue in EQ1 quite often I would drag corpses for people while LFG, with the changes on how you could drag corpses I could grab 4 at once LOL.  Kinda miss that </FONT></DIV>

[Jeridor]

I definitely do -not- want to see corpses dropping with items on them. There are times when a corpse recovery can be nigh impossible for various reasons, and just one of those experiences would really, really suck if I couldn't get my gear back. I never bail before shards are recovered, but I've had people bail on me when I needed a shard recovery. It sucks. But, I don't think corpses dropping items is the solution.

[Thesp]

<DIV>If people are going to disband while there are shards still out there, they're probably A-hole enough to disband with corpses still out there. Personally, I never disband a group when another player has a shard, IMO its the same as having a corpse out there, you just dont do it. What you're seeing is just a symptom of the problem which is that people have a general lack of respect for fellow players now.</DIV>

[Aegori]

<DIV>One of my fondest memories was my lvl 40ish raid of Kael that wiped and took 5 HOURS to get everything back since we had no equipment and were just of the level to be able to take on the mobs. Yea, and by fondest i mean worst. I would much rather take the risk of losing a shard to a jerk group than having to do these nonsense corpse runs that held up gameplay TREMENDOUSLY in certain situations. At least without a shard, you can still function as a semi-useful group member to other groups and will regain it over time. Jerk groups happen, but they certainly aren't so common that we need to revamp the entire system to account for them. It's unfrotunate, but i think many would agree that this aspect of the game does save players a lot of time and frustration.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Aeg</DIV>

[Kar]

<blockquote><hr>sidgb wrote:<DIV>I am tired of having people abandon groups after wipes making shard recovery practically impossible.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Frankly I would like to see corpses again so these losers would be forced to stick around. Or, some manner of MASSIVE experience debt for disbanding a group with shards unrecovered.</DIV><hr></blockquote>That's hardly the fault of the shard collection system. That's just bad groupmates who I might choose to add to the "do not group" list, depending on the circumstances.

[Bum]

I definately prefer the EQ1 death mechanics to the EQ2 ones in nearly every way.The one thing I think EQ2 did right is to impose XP debt, instead of XP loss.I'd much rather have a draggable corpse than a shard, and would prefer EQ1 style resurection spells that simply reduced debt as opposed to granting back lost XP.Corpse summoning spells/items are nice rewards for certain classes, and it really adds an additional aspect to the game which is fun and challenging.Of course, this doesn't work well with zone-lockout, although I'd say that if you had an unrecovered corpse in a zone you were locked out of, a click of the door to have said corpse pop at your feet would work the same as clicking the door to recover a shard does now.

[Eadric]

<DIV>My suggestiong (on another thread) was to put in corpse recovery back in the game ala EQLive. However, if the corpse was not recovered in 24 hours, it would appear at the morgue of the appropriate city. There the player could pay a fee to have the body exhumed and the items returned.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It seemed like a good balance.</DIV>

[SavinDwa]

<DIV>Ealix,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm very confused by your post??? is there perhaps some "nots missing".  The original poster seemed to be making the point that he would prefer the original EQ1 corpse approach to the current shard approach.  His reason was that when a group has a wipe out you rely on all player sticking around to get their shards, unfortunately some just take off never to be seen again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You appeared to agree with him....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But then your post took a completely diiferent turn.  You are suggesting that we do away with shards because its time consuming to recover them.  But the original poster suggested going back to corpses.  that means you 1) die at your original bind spot [home town],  2) You are naked... all your stuff is on your corpse, money, equipment everything: 3) If you don't recover your corpse you lose all of your stuff for ever.  The reason why the original poster was suggesting this is the problem in pickup groups when you have a wipe out and some people just don't bother to get their shard back.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do you prefer the corpse system to the shard system? Its much more time consuming that a shard by far..... with a shard you can run in and absord and run like hell.  With a corpse you have to take your stuff off one item at a time .. which is not normally safe.. so you just to drag your corpse across the zone behind you running as fast as you could.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Or are you suggesting that we eliminate a death death altogether???</DIV>

[Eal]

<DIV>     Do you find dragging corpses enjoyable? What about finding shards? I remember an older game. One of the first graphic based Roleplaying online games called Drakkar. Came out in 1988. It had a system where if you died you were either ressurected in-place or you revived back in the Home Town. If you revived you automatically lost a constitution point or stamina point equivelent. Only way to replace this was to get a rare stat increase potion. </DIV> <DIV>      </DIV> <DIV>      Anyways, my point was do finding shards or retrieving corpses add to the game? What would happen if either of these weren't inplace?</DIV>

[AlA]

<P>I appreciate the sentiment of your post, however sometimes a player must leave due to family aggro, connectivity issues, program/computer malfunctions  and power outages. They may not be able to reconnect. Those should not be punished and players could simply fake an LD episode and You would never know if that player crashed, or threw a tantrum.</P> <P>I was never one who craved excitement, spending too many years where the only excitement came when my dat would flip out frequently and decide it was time to try to kill me, so that explains my adversion to excitement, so I strive to remain calm, no matter how busy things get. I've even told myself aloud don't panic when the puller gets more than the group bargained for and we've pulled off some amazing victories.</P> <P>Back to your idea. I dread the day I lose my shard due to the very thing you mention. This dread is poison to me, it ties my stomach in knots, it's exhausting, it makes me feel sick and disrupts my sleep, it is bad stress for me. I avoid many a potential adventure, because I note how late it is and know that this is not the time to risk shard loss.I see a three day break from adventuring, also breaking my addiction to the game. This three day shard wait thing could be a major source of addiction breaking among customers. You want to keep your customers interested and to do this You got to keep them playing. <BR></P> <P>I am in favor of considering alternate methods of shard retrieval. that does not at the same time ruin it for those who actually thrive on what is poison to me. What that alternative method ought to be is not for me to say, but I would suggest that if it is fee based on in-game monies such as hiring an NPC  of some sort to teleport your shard to you, that it might want to be based on a percentage of the player's funds, otherwise, if someone is caught low on funds, it might be impossible to pay if the fee were large.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> sidgb wrote:<BR> <DIV>I am tired of having people abandon groups after wipes making shard recovery practically impossible.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Frankly I would like to see corpses again so these losers would be forced to stick around. Or, some manner of MASSIVE experience debt for disbanding a group with shards unrecovered.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Ydiss]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Thespar wrote:<BR> <DIV>If people are going to disband while there are shards still out there, they're probably A-hole enough to disband with corpses still out there. Personally, I never disband a group when another player has a shard, IMO its the same as having a corpse out there, you just dont do it. What you're seeing is just a symptom of the problem which is that people have a general lack of respect for fellow players now.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Or, they have a life that they cannot abandon for a game...</P> <P> </P>

[Eal]

<DIV> <DIV><EM>Ealix,</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM>I'm very confused by your post??? is there perhaps some "nots missing".  The original poster seemed to be making the point that he would prefer the original EQ1 corpse approach to the current shard approach.  His reason was that when a group has a wipe out you rely on all player sticking around to get their shards, unfortunately some just take off never to be seen again.</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV>I don't expect Sony to change the system they have set in place. Just posing constructive thoughts on balancing issues.  Rarely will you see me post on changing the game. I'd rather spend time making the game more enjoyable. Some good posts here offered some good suggestions.</DIV></DIV>

[Thesp]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ydiss wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Thespar wrote:<BR> <DIV>If people are going to disband while there are shards still out there, they're probably A-hole enough to disband with corpses still out there. Personally, I never disband a group when another player has a shard, IMO its the same as having a corpse out there, you just dont do it. What you're seeing is just a symptom of the problem which is that people have a general lack of respect for fellow players now.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Or, they have a life that they cannot abandon for a game...</P> <P> <HR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>People  only use that as a lame excuse as to why they can't stay. "oh my wife says I have to get off this instant now that there are shards out there, she let me play for 12 consecutive hrs but now I can't stay for another 10 min to help you out." *cough*BS*cough*</DIV>

[FeeRs]

<DIV>i group with rl friends mostly so this isnt much of a problem, and if anyone does die in my group i tell them to stay dead and i'll come back and res. if they then decide to respawn and want me to help them get their shard, whether i will or not depends on the mood i am in. if they didnt even bother waiting for me to get back to them, why should i bother risking my own death (again) to help them get their shard? fair enough if i cant get to them for mobs or whatever and they have to respawn i'll help them. but with an organised group its not a major prob, get the tank to aggro the mobs and leg it to clear the are, i res, whap heals on and the now living player runs like a running thing, running from a very fast other running thing that wants to poke it in the eye with a stick</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>bearing in mind i have run across antonica to help someone 15 levels lower get their shard back, simply because they asked on ooc and i was passing through at the time, because at the time i was in no pressing hurry to be anywhere. if something had cropped up at home i wouldnt have helped, not because i didnt want to, but because its a game and i have a life to live. i have betrayed with 2 characters (once each way) and you cant get your shard back at all that way. i like it, you go into a risky area and thats part of the danger. adds a bit of excitement imo. the death penalties in this game really arent the end of the world</DIV>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<DIV>I definitely prefer the shard system - if soloing  I can just say "[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] those "§$%&/!" and work my frustration away at the sewing table without being restricted in any way.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I definitely dont want to be FORCED again to do a (naked) corpse recovery before i can do anything else with that character again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Gladesto]

<DIV>Liked the Plains of power grave yard idea.At least you can recover your shard.Nice an easily, even if a shard was lost.Bring this idea into everquest2.It does suck.Ive had to ask players to help me get my shard back in the past.One time i went days stuck in debt, until one kind group offered to help recover my shard.</DIV>

[Shalwin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> sidgb wrote:<BR> <DIV>I am tired of having people abandon groups after wipes making shard recovery practically impossible.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Frankly I would like to see corpses again so these losers would be forced to stick around. Or, some manner of MASSIVE experience debt for disbanding a group with shards unrecovered.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>The whole idea of the shard system is so that you don't <EM>have </EM>to get it back at all costs.  There is no penalty for death that lasts for more than a few days.  While it is desirable to get your shard back, it is by no means necessary.  The reason for the shard system is so that no one needs to spend 5 hours trying to get your shard back.  </P> <P>The problem is that people seem to think that it is an absolute necessity to get it back and will often spend much more time than it's worth to get it back, even going to far as to create several more shards in an effort collect it.  It's not worth that much agony.  </P>

[sidgb]

<DIV>I am not asking for a five hour shard recovery.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But 15 minutes would be nice. These idiots are not even giving that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is a real shame when a group wipe means you have to log for the day, start a new group to recover or suffer an exp penalty for the next 2-3 hours because people bail on you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The "it's only a shard and no big deal" is a shallow, self serving arguement that is killing the pickup group concept.</DIV><p>Message Edited by sidgb on <span class=date_text>03-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:28 AM</span>

[WarklaW]

<DIV>I think a good solution to group abandonment would be to have an xp debt penaly equivilent to not having your own shard.  So it "hurts" you to leave the group.  If it's an issue that you have to leave because you have been on too long, then do it before someone dies.  I realize that real situations come up that keep you from staying on.  I myself have been caught in deep situations where it gets so late for me (I'm on the east cost) I have to get off because I need to go to work the next day.  Well, unfortunately, it would hurt those too.  But if you're a considerate player that can plan, it wouldn't happen that often.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know a lot of players would absolutely hate this solution, but then again, all players would now be in a position where it was in their best interest to help the group members get their shards back.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have never abandoned anyone that lost their shard, so I wouldn't think twice about impementing something like this.  However, there are quite a few "bad" apples out there that wouldn't think twice about taking off and simply grouping with some other group.  "It's not my shard."  That really isn't a good group mentality.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you join a group that you find is just looking to die, well I usually know right away.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just a thought.</DIV>

[Speak]

<DIV>Simple solution....no shard........double death debt (yes there is a price to pay for dying) and  start over at the zone entrance unless rezzed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In early beta this was debated, the whole shard idea was to give people the option of a small or big death penalty.  A bigger debt just means it will take a little longer to level up..... and make people to want to avoid death.</DIV>

[FeeRs]

<DIV>this is a difficult concept to grasp i realise, but, the world does not revolve around you. chances are if you died so did the rest of the group, so wait for a res, unless you are hunting without a healer (in which case you should have stayed where you werent likely to be over run)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the number of aggro happy tanks i have grouped with is unbelieveable, they pull and pull without even checking if the group is ready, in that situation if the tank gets himself or other party members killed for their gung ho attitude and decides to respawn instead of wait for a res from me, no way am i helping them get their shard back. if i get a penalty for someone elses potential stupidity, thats just another incentive not to group with anyone i dont know</DIV>

[sidgb]

<DIV>FeeRsuM</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Be sure to let your group know up front that you will abandon them if they do something you deem stupid. That way they can be forewarned that you are unreliable as a groupmate.</DIV><p>Message Edited by sidgb on <span class=date_text>03-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:12 AM</span>

[Shalwin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> sidgb wrote: <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The "it's only a shard and no big deal" is a shallow, self serving arguement that is killing the pickup group concept.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by sidgb on <SPAN class=date_text>03-03-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:28 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>It's not killing it as much as "HUGE EXPERIENCE DEBT FOR LEAVING YOUR GROUP" will kill it.  Face it, people are absolutely horrified of experience debt, and if they think you might incur some for them, they'll leave your group, immediately.  Heck, I've had groups break up over an evac in which no one died.  </P> <P>If you want groups to stay together for you to collect your shard, then have them eliminate the group experience penalty, that's what's breaking up the groups.  Increasing the experience penalty will only make groups break up faster, and foster a lot of bad will between players.<BR></P>

[AlA]

<P>Yeah, I try to avoid logging with a group member's shard out there, but sometimes, as in one case, it was getting on to 2am and I had to work in the morning and this particular MT had shards we tried and tried to recover only to have him leave yet another shard. Turned out the problem was that he let his armor fall to almost total disrepair because he didn't want to spend a pitiful one gold to get his armor repaired, so it was his fault and besides, he was the one to give up and log.</P> <P>I remember the names of both players I had to leave with shards out there. The other player decided to log too, but unfortunately, before he logged, he added the entire group of players to his /ignore list and so none of us could get through to him with an offer to help get his shards back the next day. He just threw his hands up in disgust at the first group wipe and flew the group.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ydiss wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Thespar wrote:<BR> <DIV>If people are going to disband while there are shards still out there, they're probably A-hole enough to disband with corpses still out there. Personally, I never disband a group when another player has a shard, IMO its the same as having a corpse out there, you just dont do it. What you're seeing is just a symptom of the problem which is that people have a general lack of respect for fellow players now.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Or, they have a life that they cannot abandon for a game...</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[FeeRs]

i'm not unreliable, i have a low tolerance for imbeciles, a subtle but key differencelike the saying goes, i don't suffer fools gladlyand i have died myself multiple times to try and get back to res someone, so shush. you dont hear me whinging about it

[sidgb]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FeeRsuM wrote:<BR>i'm not unreliable, i have a low tolerance for imbeciles, a subtle but key difference<BR><BR>like the saying goes, i don't suffer fools gladly<BR><BR>and i have died myself multiple times to try and get back to res someone, so shush. you dont hear me whinging about it<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> </DIV>The person bailing on others usually does not get too upset.

[FeeRs]

that didnt actually make any sense to me and i have an iq of 146congratulations

[Savara]

<DIV>The shard system is much better than the old days of the corpse run from bind point.  Wipes took a ridiculous amount of time to recover from on raids and led to alot of lost sleep and frustration.  I don't ever want to go back to that nonsense.  I don't think that is the problem, as someone else had mentioned.  Its the idiots leaving before shard recovery is finished.  It happened to me the other night.  The cleric left immediately after the group wiped no tell or anything, found another group and when I sent him a tell asking to please come back and rez me, he said sorry mate I'm in a group in permafrost and I'm not leaving.  The thing that really [Removed for Content] me off about this idiot is we spent about 4-5 hours helping him along with a quest "Menagerie" in Everfrost and he doesn't think its worth an extra 30 min or so to come back and rez us.  I was fortunate a gm helped me with the shard recovery a couple days after.  If I left a corpse and was naked it wouldn['t have made things any easier.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think a better idea would be to make shard recovery automatic after 24 hours offline.  That way if you are casual player it really doesn't cause that much of a problem and at the same time there still is a penalty.  That would also save the gms from having to get involved when shards are left in areas making it impossible to recover them by yourself.</DIV>

[sidgb]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FeeRsuM wrote:<BR>that didnt actually make any sense to me and i have an iq of 146<BR><BR>congratulations<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Whoop-ti-doo. I am sure your mother is proud.

[BlueKnightLPL]

<DIV>Actually I think the shard recovery (without loss of equipment/items) adds some good challenge and adventure to the game.  I have had some VERY challenging situations working out a way to get back to my shard and recover it without losing another.   It also causes me to consider my "exit strategy" when going into a difficult situation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When I was doing the Nek castle access quest (ALONE as a dwarf cleric by the way - no invis or evac) it not only was challenging to get in to the castle area and the wards but i had to constantly consided where I would run and leave my shard if I aggroed (everything was too much for me to solo) and died on the way out.  There is NO safe run and only a single exit path.  Was very exciting and had the adrenaline pumping for an hour or so.  I did lose my shard once because I agroed on the south ward and ran - lost them but picked up agro on the exit road - lost them but picked up agro by the tree things near the bridge and by that time knew that last 1% of health was going fast so had to make sure I was in the best place for a recovery.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No XP during that time, no battles, no quests completed - but had a GREAT time and quite a sense of accomplishment.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When grouping as a healer: job 1 is keep the tank alive, 2 is when tank goes down find a way to keep everyone else alive - so I'm usually the last one out.  Saving lives/shards and managing the location of deaths/shards so recovery can be accomplished is all part of the job.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I NEVER leave a group with shards outstanding, unless it's from someone who ran off by themselves into a place WAY over our heads and got killed.  I'll still usually make an attempt, even by myself to get to them for a res - but only once did i abandon someone's shard, and it was after an hour of attempts and they just had to log off.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If anyone abandoned a group mate's shard without permission i would put them on my "never to group with again" list immediately.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[BlueKnightLPL]

<P>double post</P><p>Message Edited by BlueKnightLPL on <span class=date_text>03-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:27 PM</span>

[AlA]

<P>I am surprised that a GM would do this for you. I would have expected that they would have said you will have to find help. </P> <P><FONT color=#ff3333>What an awesome generous and kind thing that GM did! Yay!</FONT></P> <P>/t SOE "You have just gained a LOT of Alaro faction points!"<BR> <HR> Rageagainstthem wrote:<BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>The shard system is much better than the old days of the corpse run from bind point.  Wipes took a ridiculous amount of time to recover from on raids and led to alot of lost sleep and frustration.  I don't ever want to go back to that nonsense.  I don't think that is the problem, as someone else had mentioned.  Its the idiots leaving before shard recovery is finished.  It happened to me the other night.  The cleric left immediately after the group wiped no tell or anything, found another group and when I sent him a tell asking to please come back and rez me, he said sorry mate I'm in a group in permafrost and I'm not leaving.  The thing that really [Removed for Content] me off about this idiot is we spent about 4-5 hours helping him along with a quest "Menagerie" in Everfrost and he doesn't think its worth an extra 30 min or so to come back and rez us.  I was fortunate a gm helped me with the shard recovery a couple days after.  If I left a corpse and was naked it wouldn['t have made things any easier.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think a better idea would be to make shard recovery automatic after 24 hours offline.  That way if you are casual player it really doesn't cause that much of a problem and at the same time there still is a penalty.  That would also save the gms from having to get involved when shards are left in areas making it impossible to recover them by yourself.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Naggyba]

There is a very simply solution.When you die, offer more than just the revive option.Revive with no shard in the world plus 1% extra debt (or whatever they want to make it, just not too crazy).Revive with shard in the worldReviving with shard and more debt, will still give a penalty but, for those times when it would be a nightmare, or take a LONG time to recover, the person could choose more debt over having to recover the shard.Reviving with shard in the world would be just like it is now.When Vox is sitting on your shard because of a mob up top above her, punts you down onto her, reviving with a little more debt would be a better choice than leaving the shard for several days, because there is simply no way you can recover it without dying more times.

[Samnas]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FeeRsuM wrote:<BR>that didnt actually make any sense to me and i have an iq of 146<BR><BR>congratulations<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Does it really make you feel superior to state your IQ?  Even if we could believe you why would we care?  I think most of us have no idea what our IQ is because we do not feel the need to take the test for the sole reason of demonstrating how much better we are than someone else.  Anyway on to the topic at hand I would explain it thoroughly for you, but I do not think my IQ is high enough to state it in a way someone of your greatness could comprehend.  I do think it had something to do with the fact that you said in a previous post you bailed on people.... then stated that nobody hears you whining.  The poster might have been referencing that since you are the one who bails you dont really have much to whine about.</FONT></DIV>

[Samnas]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FeeRsuM wrote:<BR> <DIV>this is a difficult concept to grasp i realise, but, the world does not revolve around you. chances are if you died so did the rest of the group, so wait for a res, unless you are hunting without a healer (in which case you should have stayed where you werent likely to be over run)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the number of aggro happy tanks i have grouped with is unbelieveable, they pull and pull without even checking if the group is ready, in that situation if the tank gets himself or other party members killed for their gung ho attitude and decides to respawn instead of wait for a res from me, no way am i helping them get their shard back. if i get a penalty for someone elses potential stupidity, thats just another incentive not to group with anyone i dont know</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Personally in my groups I prefer the tank to pull as fast as he can unless someone says stop.  Not stupid; just makes game enjoyable and we dont have to wait 15 seconds between fights for everyone to say 'rdy'.  If someone needs a break they say so and the tank waits... otherwise he pulls.

[AlA]

<P>I like the ideas. I'm not clear on what you mean by ...</P> <P>#1 Revive with no shard in the world plus 1% extra debt (or whatever they want to make it, just not too crazy).</P> <P>What would you get in return for the extra percent of debt? If you revive with no shard to recover, how is that different than #3?</P> <P><BR>#2. Revive with shard in the world.</P> <P>Hmm? A bit confusing. Sounds like what we are doing now. Looks like a type-O.<BR></P> <P>#3 I like, but would be better understood to mean reviving with more debt but you auto-absorb your shard upon revival.</P> <P> <HR> Naggybait wrote:<BR>There is a very simply solution.<BR><BR>When you die, offer more than just the revive option.<BR><BR>Revive with no shard in the world plus 1% extra debt (or whatever they want to make it, just not too crazy).<BR>Revive with shard in the world<BR><BR>Reviving with shard and more debt, will still give a penalty but, for those times when it would be a nightmare, or take a LONG time to recover, the person could choose more debt over having to recover the shard.<BR><BR>Reviving with shard in the world would be just like it is now.<BR><BR>When Vox is sitting on your shard because of a mob up top above her, punts you down onto her, reviving with a little more debt would be a better choice than leaving the shard for several days, because there is simply no way you can recover it without dying more times.<BR> <HR> </P><BR>

[AlA]

<P>Having a High IQ alone, means very little. IQ is having the ability to call up facts, and analyze things.</P> <P>Wisdom is the ability to use that info. </P> <P>If someone can recognize the solution because they have a high IQ but they can't put into practice the solution because temper prevents them from caring what you do, than what good is it?</P> <P>I've met a few folks with a high IQ. They tended to be cruel, even sadistic, given to fits of rage, selfish and always thought themselves the greatest stuff since sliced bread.</P> <P>I am given to a quick temper, but I thank God, I'm not given to the other things.</P> <P>Tell You what. I'll gladly trade you 30 points of IQ for 15 points of wisdom, patience, common sense and serenity.</P> <P>Conclusion: Do NOT think that someone is superior to you just because they have a higher IQ. Fact is,  I find most other folks far superior to me in many ways! I am 49 years old, and I've met fifteen year olds who have more maturity in their pinkey than I and some of the nutcases with high IQ's I've met combined.<BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Samnas wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FeeRsuM wrote:<BR>that didnt actually make any sense to me and i have an iq of 146<BR><BR>congratulations<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Does it really make you feel superior to state your IQ?  Even if we could believe you why would we care?  I think most of us have no idea what our IQ is because we do not feel the need to take the test for the sole reason of demonstrating how much better we are than someone else.  Anyway on to the topic at hand I would explain it thoroughly for you, but I do not think my IQ is high enough to state it in a way someone of your greatness could comprehend.  I do think it had something to do with the fact that you said in a previous post you bailed on people.... then stated that nobody hears you whining.  The poster might have been referencing that since you are the one who bails you dont really have much to whine about.</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <p>Message Edited by AlAro on <span class=date_text>03-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:03 PM</span>

[Ydiss]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Thespar wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ydiss wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Thespar wrote:<BR> <DIV>If people are going to disband while there are shards still out there, they're probably A-hole enough to disband with corpses still out there. Personally, I never disband a group when another player has a shard, IMO its the same as having a corpse out there, you just dont do it. What you're seeing is just a symptom of the problem which is that people have a general lack of respect for fellow players now.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Or, they have a life that they cannot abandon for a game...</P> <P> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>People  only use that as a lame excuse as to why they can't stay. "oh my wife says I have to get off this instant now that there are shards out there, she let me play for 12 consecutive hrs but now I can't stay for another 10 min to help you out." *cough*BS*cough*</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Nice exageration.</FONT></DIV>

[FeeRs]

<DIV>i dont bail on people</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>as the late great bill hicks said, you arent a person till your in my phone book <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>all joking aside, i will ALWAYS go back and help someone get their shard and will always if i have time help someone a lot lower level to me get their shard back if they ask, for example i was running through vermins snye at level 31 (i forget why, maybe coming from cob i dunno) i am nosy and saw a guy stood around i examined him, noticed his stats were knacked. i asked if he needed help getting his shard back (he was level 12ish if i remember correctly) turns out his shard was in blackburrow. np i said i ran all the way there grouped with him so he could get his shard back then all the way back to antonica to with him to make sure he made it back.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i dont bail on people. however if someone does something stupid and gets themselves killed i will not put that much effort in to make their life any easier. if some idiot attacks a mob too powerful for group and gets everyone wiped out. why should i hassle myself helping the idiot get his shard back? if it was an accident fair enough i'll help as best i can. but with what you are suggesting i would suffer a penalty in EITHER case, which is unfair.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i willa dmit tho there are some idiots that will leave group as soon as one member dies. there is a difference between that behaviour and the behaviour i am a practitioner of. you say i should suffer for someone elses mistake, i say justify that argument.</DIV>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FeeRsuM wrote:<BR>that didnt actually make any sense to me and i have an iq of 146<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I thought in the www everyone has an IQ of 140+?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and 18 inches of course :smileyvery-happy:</DIV>

[FeeRs]

<DIV>12 inches</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>lets not get greedy <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<DIV>I forgot that inches are different to the centimeters we use in europe :smileysurprised:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>....18 inches...must sound like I am talking about the horse nerf....</DIV>

[Suraklin]

<DIV>EQOA just gives debt when you die. When you killed something after dying half your xp went to debt other half went towards leveling. I'd prefer the EQOA debt system myelf.  Shard runs suck. Rather just take an xp hit and make up the debt than have to run back and try to get my shard without dying on the recovery attempt. If ya die between level 1-35 you get a 5% xp debt. Die level 36-50 you take a 10% debt hit.</DIV>

[AlA]

<P>Sometimes you really have no choice. Last night I had to bail on the groups shard including my own thus giving up almost all hope of ever being able to retrieve it. The very worst thing that I dread in this game, the very thing that had I known was to be the punishment for dying in a place were I cannot get my shard or even find it if I could, I would not have bought the game has come to pass. </P> <P>People have to work, people have all kinds of things. I stayed up till 3am trying to help but it was no use. I would have pulled an all nighter, but what use was it when I'm everyone else has gone and I'm the last and the dungeon is abandoned as an old car dumped over a cliff? I always try to contact them the next day to try to help get the shard back, but there has got to be a better way, other than spending all night playing musical shards. If shard loss didn't result in me having jawdroppingly low mana reserve no matter what I drink, if shard loss just meant this whopping huge truckload of debt instead of debt and nasty stat reduction it would not be so bad but THIS if anything, can is what might make me quit the game. Don't misunderstand, I'm not thinking of quitting or threatening to, but if I could point to two things that cause me more distress and pain and that actually take away from my enjoyment of  the game and instead gnaws at my gut and guarantees me being sick as a dog and exhausted the next day, its having to leave a groups or my own shard behind and giving up all hope of finding it again. I simply do not know RE enough, and I could run around forever if I didn't get aggro and never ever find the shard with the whacko shard WP that vanishes, flips around like a wild snake only to point right back where I just came from with every other step!</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FeeRsuM wrote:<BR> <DIV>i dont bail on people</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>as the late great bill hicks said, you arent a person till your in my phone book <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>all joking aside, i will ALWAYS go back and help someone get their shard and will always if i have time help someone a lot lower level to me get their shard back if they ask, for example i was running through vermins snye at level 31 (i forget why, maybe coming from cob i dunno) i am nosy and saw a guy stood around i examined him, noticed his stats were knacked. i asked if he needed help getting his shard back (he was level 12ish if i remember correctly) turns out his shard was in blackburrow. np i said i ran all the way there grouped with him so he could get his shard back then all the way back to antonica to with him to make sure he made it back.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i dont bail on people. however if someone does something stupid and gets themselves killed i will not put that much effort in to make their life any easier. if some idiot attacks a mob too powerful for group and gets everyone wiped out. why should i hassle myself helping the idiot get his shard back? if it was an accident fair enough i'll help as best i can. but with what you are suggesting i would suffer a penalty in EITHER case, which is unfair.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i willa dmit tho there are some idiots that will leave group as soon as one member dies. there is a difference between that behaviour and the behaviour i am a practitioner of. you say i should suffer for someone elses mistake, i say justify that argument.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[SilentSam]

<DIV> <HR> Thespar wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ydiss wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Thespar wrote:<BR> <DIV>If people are going to disband while there are shards still out there, they're probably A-hole enough to disband with corpses still out there. Personally, I never disband a group when another player has a shard, IMO its the same as having a corpse out there, you just dont do it. What you're seeing is just a symptom of the problem which is that people have a general lack of respect for fellow players now.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Or, they have a life that they cannot abandon for a game...</P> <P> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>People  only use that as a lame excuse as to why they can't stay. "oh my wife says I have to get off this instant now that there are shards out there, she let me play for 12 consecutive hrs but now I can't stay for another 10 min to help you out." *cough*BS*cough*</DIV><BR> <HR> </DIV> <P> </P> <P>Ok...wow.  There are differences in why someone might have to leave a group before doing a shard run.  Two types come to my mind:  </P> <P>Type 1 - The other player just drops out without saying anything and heads off cussing under their breath.  They go join another group or just ignore everyone from your shard group.  Either way, you guys are right and this guys a jerk...or it could also be that the shard group was just that bad that they thought they would be better off without you.  Either way, I agree that it is a lame thing to do.</P> <P>Type 2 - There are those that might actually have a real reason for leaving before spending another hour or two to get a shard.  I DO have a pregnant wife, a kid, I run my own business, and teach as well.  So sometimes if i am playing for only a bit longer but suddenly we get wiped...well sorry guys, this is a game and I actually have other stuff to do, like take care of my family.  If your response is "Go play some other game then...cause you gotta be ready to play EQ for uber long times with Leet dudes like me"....well then yer a punk kid who knows no better.  I play this game to have fun and to escape the real-world chaos I deal with every day.  I don't play in Norrath to appease your needs.  If I leave I politely apologize and head out.  Sorry that some people have lives.</P> <P>On a side note:<BR>  <BR>Naggybait:  I like the idea that you put forward.  Sounds like a good simple solution for getting your shard back without being too harsh.</P> <P>AlAro:  I fail to see what you didn't understand in Naggybaits ideas...they're laid out quite simply and understandably.  I thought you were just bragging about your IQ?  :smileytongue:</P> <P><BR>I digress...</P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by SilentSam on <span class=date_text>03-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:36 AM</span>

[sidgb]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SilentSam wrote:<BR> <P>Type 2 - There are those that might actually have a real reason for leaving before spending another hour or two to get a shard.  I DO have a pregnant wife, a kid, I run my own business, and teach as well.  So sometimes if i am playing for only a bit longer but suddenly we get wiped...well sorry guys, this is a game and I actually have other stuff to do, like take care of my family.  If your response is "Go play some other game then...cause you gotta be ready to play EQ for uber long times with Leet dudes like me"....well then yer a punk kid who knows no better.  I play this game to have fun and to escape the real-world chaos I deal with every day.  I don't play in Norrath to appease your needs.  If I leave I politely apologize and head out.  Sorry that some people have lives.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>It went like this:</P> <P>*crickets*</P> <P>player x leaves group</P> <P>player y leaves group</P> <P>*crickets*</P>

[Naggyba]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>AlAro wrote:<P>I like the ideas. I'm not clear on what you mean by ...</P><P>#1 Revive with no shard in the world plus 1% extra debt (or whatever they want to make it, just not too crazy).</P><P>What would you get in return for the extra percent of debt? If you revive with no shard to recover, how is that different than #3?</P><P>#2. Revive with shard in the world.</P><P>Hmm? A bit confusing. Sounds like what we are doing now. Looks like a type-O.</P><P>#3 I like, but would be better understood to mean reviving with more debt but you auto-absorb your shard upon revival.</P><P><HR>Naggybait wrote:There is a very simply solution.When you die, offer more than just the revive option.Revive with no shard in the world plus 1% extra debt (or whatever they want to make it, just not too crazy).Revive with shard in the worldReviving with shard and more debt, will still give a penalty but, for those times when it would be a nightmare, or take a LONG time to recover, the person could choose more debt over having to recover the shard.Reviving with shard in the world would be just like it is now.When Vox is sitting on your shard because of a mob up top above her, punts you down onto her, reviving with a little more debt would be a better choice than leaving the shard for several days, because there is simply no way you can recover it without dying more times.<HR><P></P><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>There were only 2 options in that post. I guess I should have numbered them. Below that was just explaining what I was talking about.1. Revive with no shard in the world plus 1% extra debt (or whatever they want to make it, just not too crazy).2. Revive with shard in the worldFirst option would allow you to revive without leaving a shard, it would just add more debt instead, for those times when shard recover is just impossible or inconvenient. I would rather have a little more debt, than run around with a missing shard (and my stats being lowered). It would be great for those times when recovery could take a long time or impossible.Second option would be like it is now, where you go get your shard.

[WuphonsReach]

Lost shards are not a big deal (do a betrayal quest and you'll end up with 1 lost shard right at the start). At one point during the betrayal, I had *2* unrecoverable shards and it really didn't slow me down much. Let's take my level 8 trader and jump him off the 'ship prow' in SFP... initial stats, stats after death, stats after 2nd death.HP 152 (136) (120)Power 178 (157) (13<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />STR 14 (13) (11)AGI 33 (30) (26)STA 17 (15) (14)INT 37 (33) (30)WIS 21 (19) (17)For 2 minutes, you suffer from Revived Sickness which gives you lower stats. Along with 12% debt from not recovering the shard. Then you recover a bit and you'll see STR go from 14 to 13, AGI go from 33 to 30 (roughly a 10% drop in stats).So it's worth it to get a shard back, but not an absolute killer requirement that you do get the shard back. And after 72 hours, that shard gets reabsorbed anyway. (There are dozens of other things you can do such as playing an alt, crafting, running quests, harvesting, watching a movie, reading a book, playing with the kids... nobody says you have to be level 30 by the weekend. That's a personal issue.)All that being said... things I would like to see added:- The ability of group members to drag shards. Sometimes shards end up in bad situations where it's simply not a rezzable location. Especially underwater or when a corpse gets stuck in a non-targetable place.- Allow priests and mages to summon shards of group members using a spell and a reagent. Make it 1sp for t1, 4sp for t2, 16sp for t3, 64sp for t4, and 2.56gp for t5 players.- Perhaps reduce the amount of stat loss to only 5% per shard instead of 10% per shard.

[Wiou]

Strongly disagree.Obviously people get very discouraged when they lose a shard..Who wants to be PENALIZED for taking a break?You lose debt and shards over time while camped out.

[AlA]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SilentSam wrote:<BR> <P>AlAro:  I fail to see what you didn't understand in Naggybaits ideas...they're laid out quite simply and understandably.  I thought you were just bragging about your IQ?  :smileytongue:</P> <P>LOL!! Touche!</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <p>Message Edited by AlAro on <span class=date_text>03-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:31 PM</span>

[AlA]

Hard to tell who you are disagreeing with. I hear a lot of folks saying that they were well nigh useless until three days passed. If you are disagreeing with me, than what you are saying is that not being able to recover your shard does not mean as horrible a stat loss as such folks would have me and others believe. If so, that is good.  Either way, since I have the memory of a block of cheese, I'm unable to guess which post you might be replying to.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wiou wrote:<BR>Strongly disagree.<BR><BR>Obviously people get very discouraged when they lose a shard..<BR><BR>Who wants to be PENALIZED for taking a break?<BR><BR>You lose debt and shards over time while camped out.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>