When can we "tanks" all be =

[Platinum]

We all know which "tanks" have special abilities and they seem to get even better at higher levels "50". If all tanks are supposed to be equal at the primary role of tanking then why do certain "tanks" get so many special abilities? I play a Guardian see, I want to be able to heal myself or atleast FD when I get aggro so my group won't die if I make a bad pull if I'm the MT. I mean seriously what am I good at?Platx

[Antiw]

<DIV>Well to be honest your roll as a guardian is to take damage.  From what i have seen is that guardians are better at keeping aggro and are able to take hits better than the other tanks.  </DIV>

[Platfing]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> PlatinumX2 wrote:<BR>We all know which "tanks" have special abilities and they seem to get even better at higher levels "50". If all tanks are supposed to be equal at the primary role of tanking then why do certain "tanks" get so many special abilities? I play a Guardian see, I want to be able to heal myself or atleast FD when I get aggro so my group won't die if I make a bad pull if I'm the MT. I mean seriously what am I good at?<BR><BR>Platx<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Guardians are currently the best tank in the game.  A tank needs to </P> <P>1. Keep the attention of the mob</P> <P>and  </P> <P>2. Stay alive</P> <P>The guardian class excels above all other tank classes in both of these areas.  That is what you are good at.  The special abilities currently in the game are really for fluff and soloing when you come down to it (in other words, most groups would choose to live without them in exchange for a SUPERIOR tank that excels at #1 and #2 above.).  </P> <P> </P>

[rolan]

<DIV>i guess you have know clue what it is like to play the other tanks. you want to play one that can heal? ok play the paly that has less hp than you less ac not as good def as you can not duel weild can not use tower shields and does not do the damge that you do. you say you want to fd? ok then play the sk, he can fd, yup once every half a hour and it last for 10 secounds and is not effective  against mobs 30 plus most the time, they also have less ac than you less hp than you less def than you and the cost of power for there spells is terrible, they also can not duel weild or use tower shields, and lets not forget that  both those other tanks  can not use any weapons but swords and some crush weapons. they also have a harder time keeping aggro compared to a guard or zerker, and if you look at the sk spells, and abilitys compared to yours and the zerker you will see that you out damge them and not by a little. i group with a zerker and gaurd alot, useing the same weapons i hit around 200 when they are hiting around 400.  my highest magic hit as a sk is from ht (level 43) is 1055 and both that guard and zerker are not far from that i have seen  both hit for over 500 with just a two hander, half the damge of my best spell on a half hour timer and they can do that at any time. i guess some people just think they should have every thing, but then will come back and complain the classes are to much alike.</DIV>

[Lou]

<DIV>test</DIV>

[Platinum]

Hmm, so the monk/tank who FD right before a total group wipe out in nek castle right before we pulled lord is considered "fluff". Or the "Knight" who avoided a total group wipe out by healing the MT because the healers was of out of power is "fluff". I'm sorry I do not consider that fluff! Now tell me what's so special about my Guardian? Group buffs? Increased mitigation, what 1 one extra whopping hit per encounter compared to other tanks? I just don't see it, yet I've read a post recently that examines the life of a Guardian to suggest that he is considered the preferred Tanks on Raids and people are complaining?

[CynideT]

Sarcasm is wasted on the masses.He's making a point, not actually expecting for the things he's asked for. Pallies want to be able to "tank" better, so he wants their healing abilities in return ... etc etc etc....

[peasant007]

<DIV>Not all tanks are equal.  If all the fighter classes had the same skills, then there would be no need for the entire class/subclass quests.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardians are there to take the damage.</DIV> <DIV>Beserkers are there to deal more damage.</DIV> <DIV>Pally/SK magical and physical damage with a loss to both dealing lots of damage and taking it all.  More the back-up tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is pretty much true with all fantasy RPG games out there.</DIV>

[Eal]

<DIV>I totally agree with the OP. I am a guardian and its not fair that other classes get to cast spells and I dont. There is no reason that I shouldn't be able to rez and heal either. I paid just as much for this game as a pally and Sk why dont I have a horse? A monk gets to be a tank and with a healer does more damage than me. This allows them to kill faster when duoing and get more experience than I could because my dps is so low. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Please Sony Fix what is Broken. I am all for class nuetering.</DIV>

[Daffid011]

How does this relate to the latest patch?

[Bootstwadd]

<DIV>You're kidding right?  You can't be serious.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You want a horse?  I'll happily hand you my horse and all the grief it has caused so I can use a bow.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You want to heal yourself?  I'm sure any Pally would hand you one of their heal spells in order to be able to take the damage you do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You want to feign death?  That spells does nothing more than lead to real death and more debt (talking about SK Graven Embrace).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tell you what, I'll hand you my resistable Harm Touch spell on a 30 minute timer if I can use something other than a Kite Sheild, sword or low damage hammer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh, and while we're at it, take my lifetaps, they're pretty useless anyway...but in return I want some of your better mitigation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh, and let's not forget my so called wards.  Take em, they're yours...Heck, one hit from a high level mob and it's done anyhow.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You're kidding right?  You want to heal yourself?  TRY playing a Pally.  You want a horse?  TRY playing an SK.  Want to do better damage TRY playing a Berserker.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>C'mon...really.  Is this post simply to cry about Guardians?  Cause in the other post with virtually the same title everybody's singing your praises.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Flame away!</DIV>

[Eelyen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Boombahyay wrote:<BR> <DIV>You're kidding right?  You can't be serious.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You want a horse?  I'll happily hand you my horse and all the grief it has caused so I can use a bow.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You want to heal yourself?  I'm sure any Pally would hand you one of their heal spells in order to be able to take the damage you do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You want to feign death?  That spells does nothing more than lead to real death and more debt (talking about SK Graven Embrace).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tell you what, I'll hand you my resistable Harm Touch spell on a 30 minute timer if I can use something other than a Kite Sheild, sword or low damage hammer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh, and while we're at it, take my lifetaps, they're pretty useless anyway...but in return I want some of your better mitigation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh, and let's not forget my so called wards.  Take em, they're yours...Heck, one hit from a high level mob and it's done anyhow.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You're kidding right?  You want to heal yourself?  TRY playing a Pally.  You want a horse?  TRY playing an SK.  Want to do better damage TRY playing a Berserker.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>C'mon...really.  Is this post simply to cry about Guardians?  Cause in the other post with virtually the same title everybody's singing your praises.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Flame away!</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Actually I think this post was a sarcastic poke at the other "equal" tanking thread.<BR>

[Eal]

<DIV>Sony in the beginning said that all fighters would generally be able to fill the role of Main Tank. I am a guardian that is only asked to fill one primary role and that is Main Tank. This to me is not fair because it takes away from the versatility of my class. I do not want to be Main Tank every time but on the other hand when I am not playing Main Tank I want to have the fluff abilities of other classes.  Being able to FD is nice and cast spells would be great. Any real reason why I can't have a horse?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All I am asking is for Tanks to be equal. This is only fair.</DIV>

[nighth]

<blockquote><hr>Ealix wrote:<DIV>Sony in the beginning said that all fighters would generally be able to fill the role of Main Tank. I am a guardian that is only asked to fill one primary role and that is Main Tank. This to me is not fair because it takes away from the versatility of my class. I do not want to be Main Tank every time but on the other hand when I am not playing Main Tank I want to have the fluff abilities of other classes. Being able to FD is nice and cast spells would be great. Any real reason why I can't have a horse?</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>All I am asking is for Tanks to be equal. This is only fair.</DIV><hr></blockquote>Those abilities are not "fluff" abilities they are class abilties like the guardians ability to asorb more dmg and such. In the game the "fluff" ability are the horse for sk/pally or the flaming hand , the kata for the monks. That is fluff. Feign death is a monk skill who cannot take that much dmg when they get hit they get hit hard. Sk/pal can take more of a beating then a monk but no where near what a guardian can. If you do not like the abilities that your Guardian has then reroll another toon. Its like my inquisitor asking for a speed buff cuz well the shaman have it, so why shouldnt I ?? The answer is pretty simple because that is their individual class ability. So you cannot heal deal with it or make a new toon.

[Eal]

<DIV>What is so wrong with Guardians wanting other tanks abilities since other classes want to be Main Tank? There should be a command during raids where the tank that cries the most about not being the Main Tank gets to slap hands with the guardian and they switch identities. We will call this the doppleganger effect. This will eliminate the confusion of roles when rolling a character. I am just gonna do a lot of hand slapping.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tanks should be equal.</DIV>

[Bootstwadd]

<DIV>"Actually I think this post was a sarcastic poke at the other "equal" tanking thread."<BR> <P></P> <DIV> <P>Eelyen Dalamar<BR>Guild Leader of <A href="http://firesoftime.eelyen.com/forums" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>Fires of Time</FONT></A><BR></P></DIV></DIV> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>I sure hope it is.  Cause my pony was starting to get REALLY angry.</P> <P>I can appreciate ALL classes wanting the things other classes have...</P> <P>BUT when there are certain sub-classes that are OBVIOUSLY overlooked by the game creators ...</P> <P>(I'll say SK because I play an SK...and one look at the SK board will tell you something...as well as posts I and other SK's have made about the inadequacy of our Lifetaps, our darn-near-useless damage spells, as well as our currently disabled summon skill)</P> <P>... seeing an I WANT I WANT post by someone who plays one of the few subclasses that IMO is fulfilling it's role, frustrates the hell outta me.</P> <P>Now, I'm off to feed my Unholy War Pony (I named him "Stew", because he'd be better served replenishing my health as food) some sugar cubes to calm him down.</P> <P> </P>

[Qwindar]

<blockquote><hr>Ealix wrote:<DIV>Sony in the beginning said that all fighters would generally be able to fill the role of Main Tank. I am a guardian that is only asked to fill one primary role and that is Main Tank. This to me is not fair because it takes away from the versatility of my class. I do not want to be Main Tank every time but on the other hand when I am not playing Main Tank I want to have the fluff abilities of other classes. Being able to FD is nice and cast spells would be great. Any real reason why I can't have a horse?</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>All I am asking is for Tanks to be equal. This is only fair.</DIV><hr></blockquote>Then don't play a guardian. I play a guardian, I love being the MT, please don't ruin my fun, or the fun of other guardians by asking for this junk. As it is, most tank classes are crying for a nerf on guardians, well, atleast some people who play other tank and scout classes, and here you are asking for guardians to heal, FD, and have a horse??!!!! Get real, they can have their FD, heals, horseys, and all the other stuff that makes them the class they are, I LOVE my guardian just the way he is. You want to heal? Play a healer or a paly. Want to FD? Play a monk type or an SK. You want a horse? Play a knight class or save the plat like the rest of us. I'm sorry, but with all the "guardian envy" I've seen as of late, the LAST thing that the class needs is someone who obviously knows nothing of being a guardian to come here and beg for more abilities. We don't cast spells? Oh, that's news to me, why does my kick "fizzle"? I'm sorry, but learn what the class is about before you try playing it. Guardians, or tanks in general, are NEVER considered to be "versatile". They get in the mobs face and [Removed for Content] off the mob enough to keep it off of the damaged dealing or healing classes. That is what a tank does and that's the only thing the guardian was made to do. To be honest with you, I thought you and the OP were anything BUT a guardian asking to get guardians nerfed or to get their class "buffed" to that of a guardian.

[Eelyen]

<DIV>Come on people, these are sarcastic posts <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just go read the other thread and you'll understand why some folks did this <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><p>Message Edited by Eelyen on <span class=date_text>03-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:34 PM</span>

[Eal]

<DIV>Finally someone gets it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's funny how people put so much time and effort into their argument and it all just boils down to human predictability. Anyone really believe if they made all tanks exactly the same people wouldnt want more? I am glad that Sony doesnt adhere to everytime someone whines I WANT MORE MORE MORE.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For the other Posts out there. The grass is always greener on the other side. I hope you aren't pestering the Jones's because he is driving a V-8 and you have  V-6.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's life, get over it.</DIV>

[Zind]

"You want to heal yourself? TRY playing a Pally. You want a horse? TRY playing an SK. Want to do better damage TRY playing a Berserker."Want to be the main tank? TRY playing a Guardian.

[Qwindar]

<blockquote><hr>Ealix wrote:<DIV>Finally someone gets it.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>It's funny how people put so much time and effort into their argument and it all just boils down to human predictability. Anyone really believe if they made all tanks exactly the same people wouldnt want more? I am glad that Sony doesnt adhere to everytime someone whines I WANT MORE MORE MORE.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>For the other Posts out there. The grass is always greener on the other side. I hope you aren't pestering the Jones's because he is driving a V-8 and you have V-6.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>It's life, get over it.</DIV><hr></blockquote>If this was indeed a joke, it was a very bad joke that wasn't thought out. I have a great sense of humor, but I didn't find anything funny about this thread. With the way nerf bats have swung and the fact that some people seem bent on getting other classes nerfed, I didn't see any humor in this thread. My apologies IF this was a joke.

[rolan]

<DIV>i am glad the tank classes are different. and i am glad or happy that the guards are the mt and that is there job and they like it. and that most guards played that class for that reason.i my self do not care if i ever mt.  i think it is cool that zerkers gave up def for off. and every one can see what a paly can do with heals and loh and wards and there self only buffs, makes them a great  group member. but what in gods name is the sk place in all of this? the others all have a role to play and every one with any common sense can see it, and should know what it is. but the sk does not. they should be a off tank, but they are not. they do no more dps than the paly and do not tank as well and do not have the utility of the paly. they do not do the dps of the zerker and do not tank as well, and they sure as hell do not tank as well as the guard and the dps is about the same. so what is the roll of the poor old sk?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>all tanks should be equal </DIV>

[Eelyen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zindak wrote:<BR>"You want to heal yourself? TRY playing a Pally. You want a horse? TRY playing an SK. Want to do better damage TRY playing a Berserker."<BR><BR>Want to be the main tank? TRY playing a Guardian.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>That was a good one. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></DIV>

[Eal]

<DIV>You get the cool name of Shadow Knight. A lot better sounding than Guardian. Guardian sounds like a social worker or civil servant. I dont even get dental or medical plans. Now how is this fair?</DIV>

[Platinum]

<DIV>{If this was indeed a joke, it was a very bad joke that wasn't thought out. I have a great sense of humor, but I didn't find anything funny about this thread. With the way nerf bats have swung and the fact that some people seem bent on getting other classes nerfed, I didn't see any humor in this thread. My apologies IF this was a joke.}</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This was a joke,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't want any other abilities nor does any guardian whom has replied to this they are being sarcastic as well.  The point of this tread was that everyone is always trying to get another class nerfed.  Instead of providing the devs some solid feedback they just rant and say oh can you believe, oh I can't do that.  This isn't productive and only leads to individuals constantly pulling out the nerf bats.  For once I feel my class is perfect, I don't a horse, I don't want heals, I don't want FD but I do want is to be able to tank.  I'm very happy with with my class and I don't want to have things constantly changed because some individuals keep complaining.  Instead of complaining about what you can't do why not create a post suggesting some changes to the healing of a knight or changes to the resist of a particular spell in your class line.  "Post my FD doesn't seem to be online with my ability as a 43 Monk, what can we do to change this Devs? </DIV>

[Bootstwadd]

<DIV> <DIV>"You get the cool name of Shadow Knight. A lot better sounding than Guardian. Guardian sounds like a social worker or civil servant. I dont even get dental or medical plans. Now how is this fair?"</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thank you, I quite like the name myself...too bad it means NOTHING.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>By the way, my Mom's a social worker, and my Dad was a civil servant....how's that fair?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(Oozing w/sarcasm)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Quegol]

<DIV>How about nerfing zerker tuant from casting buff spells.. i play with a good friend of mine who happens to be a zerker while i am a guardian.. he just wants to do his thing and be dps while i tank but from casting 2 buffs durring the fight wihtout even hitting ANY ability's while im tuanting with all app4 spells constantly he can draw aggro.. zerker aggro needs to be fixed so that casting a buff doesnt pull extreeme amount of aggro i think personaly </DIV>

[Bur]

It's really very simple why people yell for nerfs instead of begging for fixes. Back in EQ1 days that's what sony taught us. It's VERY clear that SOE is more willing to blast a classes abilities into oblivion then buff one to be in line. Either way no tank is even compairable to a guardian ATM. I don't mind you guys being the best but as a brawler it's not that I tank badly it's that I CAN'T tank. To effectively tank I need a massive support group (cleric/shaman/troubador)and even then necromancer pets that are blue to me can take more of a beating then I can.

[Ethelwo]

<P>Clue to the Guardians. Cast your buffs during the fight not between the fights. I know you dont get alot of them, but you do get some. </P> <P>When I play my zerker as MT I never lose agro. Why?  Because I know how to get it and keep it. Thats what a MT is supposed to do. As MT my damage output is no greater then a Guardians. I use shield and 1hnd weapon when filling the MT role and only duel wield when playing the damage dealer role. That ain't often though. I had a Guardian and re-roled a Zerker because I wanted to do more damage. That isn't what happened. I do no more damage then I did with my Guardian when doing the MT thing. Mostly because I'm casting buffs and everything else I can to maintain agro throughout the fight. My Zerker does get many more buffs then a Guardian, but it only really takes one.</P> <P>I pull with single target hate spell, then do a fighter HO, finished with my group hate spell (even on single^^ mobs). I follow this up with one of my group attack skills like assault (when fighting group of teo or more) and a buff. Then I just sit there and wait for the damage dealers to finish them off. It only takes one buff and Guardians have at least one. I always parse out low when main tank, but I never lose agro.</P> <P>My point is this: Guardians have the tools to get and hold agro. They also get better defence skills and more hit points. If your losing agro during a fight then your doing something wrong.</P> <P>I think I can count on one finger the number of times I've seen a Guardian cast a buff during a fight. Buffs get great agro and should be used as one of your MT essiential tools.</P> <P>Keep them handy and cast them during the fight.</P>

[Eelyen]

<DIV>Our buffs cost a small fortune of power.</DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ealix wrote:<BR> <DIV>What is so wrong with Guardians wanting other tanks abilities since other classes want to be Main Tank? There should be a command during raids where the tank that cries the most about not being the Main Tank gets to slap hands with the guardian and they switch identities. We will call this the doppleganger effect. This will eliminate the confusion of roles when rolling a character. I am just gonna do a lot of hand slapping.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tanks should be equal.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Let me give you a clue, Captain Thickheaded.</P> <P>Main tank = a role</P> <P>FD = skill</P> <P>Kthx.</P> <P>I realize this post is sarcasm, but if guardians truly want more utility then ASK for it?  Its ridiculous to think that the guardian class' skills = MT.</P> <P>In fact I've read your skill list, you get plenty of DoTs and debuffs that other fighters don't get.  Heh.<BR></P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> PlatinumX2 wrote:<BR> <DIV>I don't want any other abilities nor does any guardian whom has replied to this they are being sarcastic as well.  The point of this tread was that everyone is always trying to get another class nerfed.  Instead of providing the devs some solid feedback they just rant and say oh can you believe, oh I can't do that.  This isn't productive and only leads to individuals constantly pulling out the nerf bats.  For once I feel my class is perfect, I don't a horse, I don't want heals,<FONT color=#ffff00> I don't want FD but I do want is to be able to tank.  </FONT>I'm very happy with with my class and I don't want to have things constantly changed because some individuals keep <FONT color=#ffff00>complaining.  Instead of complaining about what you can't do why not create a post suggesting some changes to the healing of a knight or changes to the resist of a particular spell in your class line.  "Post my FD doesn't seem to be online with my ability as a 43 Monk, what can we do to change this Devs? </FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>We are suggesting.</P> <P>What we want to do is TANK.  TANKING IS NOT A COMBAT ART.  IT ISN'T A SPELL.  IT IS A ROLE.  GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEADS.</P> <P>You do not have a combat art that you push that is called "tank".  </P> <P>To compare your ARCHTYPE ROLE with FEIGN DEATH (a skill) is [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot].<BR></P>

[Eal]

<DIV>Bradley fighting vehicle is a light tank. Monks are the Bradley fighting vehicles of Norrath. Hmmm..that has a nice ring to it.</DIV>

[Eelyen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> PlatinumX2 wrote:<BR> <DIV>I don't want any other abilities nor does any guardian whom has replied to this they are being sarcastic as well.  The point of this tread was that everyone is always trying to get another class nerfed.  Instead of providing the devs some solid feedback they just rant and say oh can you believe, oh I can't do that.  This isn't productive and only leads to individuals constantly pulling out the nerf bats.  For once I feel my class is perfect, I don't a horse, I don't want heals,<FONT color=#ffff00> I don't want FD but I do want is to be able to tank.  </FONT>I'm very happy with with my class and I don't want to have things constantly changed because some individuals keep <FONT color=#ffff00>complaining.  Instead of complaining about what you can't do why not create a post suggesting some changes to the healing of a knight or changes to the resist of a particular spell in your class line.  "Post my FD doesn't seem to be online with my ability as a 43 Monk, what can we do to change this Devs? </FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>We are suggesting.</P> <P>What we want to do is TANK.  TANKING IS NOT A COMBAT ART.  IT ISN'T A SPELL.  IT IS A ROLE.  GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEADS.</P> <P>You do not have a combat art that you push that is called "tank".  </P> <P>To compare your ARCHTYPE ROLE with FEIGN DEATH (a skill) is [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot].<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> I've been thinking about this.  Honestly, Guardians "skills" only enhance their primary role.

[Namil]

<DIV>Isn't this already being discussed in this thread for the most part anyway? <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=7161" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=7161</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why start a new thread that pretty much will generate all the same comments regardless of the removal of Raid Mobs. And not all base fighter classes are supposed to be equal as the origonal poster states. </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Namilla on <SPAN class=date_text>03-03-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:55 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Namilla on <span class=date_text>03-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:59 AM</span>

[Eelyen]

<DIV>Cause anything about classes will turn into a debate.  Sometimes you just gotta go with the flow.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>=P</DIV>

[Mad_Magician]

<DIV>Oh my GOD. I just had a brilliant idea. No, really I have it. The solution to all solutions. I dunno how SoE could have not done this in the first place - I mean this is just the best solution.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Have only a single class with all the abilities!</DIV>

[Eelyen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mad_Magician wrote:<BR> <DIV>Oh my GOD. I just had a brilliant idea. No, really I have it. The solution to all solutions. I dunno how SoE could have not done this in the first place - I mean this is just the best solution.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Have only a single class with all the abilities!</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I am in awe of your intellectual superiority.</FONT></DIV>

[Daffid011]

Because someone thinks their post will get "attention" if posted here.

[GraymaneGravitic]

<DIV>"What is so wrong with Guardians wanting other tanks abilities since other classes want to be Main Tank?"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe because SOE promised ALL tanks would be able to be "able to tank equally well".....they never promised Guardians would have other tanks abilities, but they did promise that all tanks would be able to tank equally well. Now, that means that since Guardians, without all the abilities other tanks have, can obviously tanks better than the other tanks, it means SOE renegged on their promise and owes all the other tanks compensation for fraudulently misrepresenting that they would be able to tank as well as Guardians. Now, what, exactly, did SOE promise your class that they failed to deliver on? <listens to the crickets></DIV>

[Namil]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GraymaneGraviticus wrote:<BR> <DIV>"What is so wrong with Guardians wanting other tanks abilities since other classes want to be Main Tank?"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe because SOE promised ALL tanks would be able to be "able to tank equally well <FONT color=#ff3300>in most situations</FONT>".....they never promised Guardians would have other tanks abilities, but they did promise that all tanks would be able to tank equally well <FONT color=#ff3300>in most situations</FONT>. Now, that means that since Guardians, without all the abilities other tanks have, can obviously tanks better than the other tanks, it means SOE renegged on their promise and owes all the other tanks compensation for fraudulently misrepresenting that they would be able to tank as well as Guardians. Now, what, exactly, did SOE promise your class that they failed to deliver on? </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Why does everyone leave this part out?

[GraymaneGravitic]

<DIV>"Just go read the other thread and you'll understand why some folks did this <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif" width=16 border=0>"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, indeed, it is easy to understand why they did it. They did it because they don't underdstand why the other tanks in the game feel cheated by SOE's promise that all tanks would be able to tank equally well and be equally sought after by groups. So they come here and and engage in a lame attempt to poke fun at the people with a legitimate gripe and belittle that gripe by comparing it to their asking for things they don't need, weren't promised and aren't entitled to. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This isn't something that should be accepted as a friendly jest. That's NOT what it is. it is an effort to belittle others and it should be responded to as such. They are behaving like contemptible excuses for decent human beings and deserve to be taken to task for it, not laughed at!</DIV>

[GraymaneGravitic]

<DIV>"<FONT color=#ff3300>in most situations"</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe because it is irrellevant?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if "most situatuations" doesn't include the ones that matter....ie.....the ones that will make you desired by and invited by groups, then it WAS nothing more than smoke blowing misrepresentation by the advertiser's who enticed us into choosing our classes based on a false assumption.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>trying to use it as a weasel excuse as in "see we never told you "other" tanks that you would be able to tank equally well in ALL situations.....and oh, by the way, the ones you CAN'T tank equally well in are all the ones that willl make a difference to your being desired by the other classes for their groups" is as equally damning to those who fed us the line as attempting to make the claim they never promised us in the first place!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>IT DOESN'T GET THEM OFF THE HOOK!</DIV>

[Namil]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>It does <U>not</U> seem like some of you want balance (witch in my opinion we have) you want to be #1 and if you cant be #1 then your going to complain and whine. The choices were clear for those that bothered to read them, sorry your choice did not meet what you expected but dont screw over other peoples choices for a poor choice by you. </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I am not saying everything is perfect, but at least realize that just because <U>your</U> choice is not every one elses first choice for a group does not mean that your broken. </P> <P>You might as well compare Enchanters to Wizards and have the Enchanter screaming that they should do the same DPS as a Wizard because they started as the same base class. This is what you are trying to do with the base fighter classes, we all started as a fighter so we should all be able to do the same work. Sorry that is wrong!</P><p>Message Edited by Namilla on <span class=date_text>03-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:14 AM</span>

[Namil]

<P>Sorry double post!</P><p>Message Edited by Namilla on <span class=date_text>03-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:10 AM</span>

[Namil]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GraymaneGraviticus wrote:<BR> <DIV>"<FONT color=#ff3300>in most situations"</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe because it is irrellevant?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if "most situatuations" doesn't include the ones that matter....ie.....the ones that will make you desired by and invited by groups, then it WAS nothing more than smoke blowing misrepresentation by the advertiser's who enticed us into choosing our classes based on a false assumption.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>trying to use it as a weasel excuse as in "see we never told you "other" tanks that you would be able to tank equally well in ALL situations.....and oh, by the way, the ones you CAN'T tank equally well in are all the ones that willl make a difference to your being desired by the other classes for their groups" is as equally damning to those who fed us the line as attempting to make the claim they never promised us in the first place!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>IT DOESN'T GET THEM OFF THE HOOK!</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> SOE never said EVER that all fighter based classes were meant to do the same jobs always.<p>Message Edited by Namilla on <span class=date_text>03-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:14 AM</span>

[GraymaneGravitic]

<DIV>what they said was that we would all be able to tank equally well enough that we would ALL be equally desired by groups</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>since the reality is that we are all NOT equally desired by groups.........SOE lied.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EXACTLY WHAT PART OF SUCH A SIMPLE EQUATION ARE ALL YOU GUARDIANS FINDING TOO COMPLEX TO GRASP?</DIV><p>Message Edited by GraymaneGraviticus on <span class=date_text>03-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:23 AM</span>

[sidgb]

<DIV>Gray,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Talk to me about fair when a non-guardian gets picked over a guardian for DPS reasons.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What part of this do you not understand?</DIV><p>Message Edited by sidgb on <span class=date_text>03-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:32 AM</span>

[Eelyen]

<DIV>This is the nice thing about making friends you can group with on a daily basis.  You don't have to care about what your class can and cannot do.  When you just do your job well, you can enjoy it and not have to worry about LFG regardless.</DIV>

[Zind]

"what they said was that we would all be able to tank equally well enough that we would ALL be equally desired by groups since the reality is that we are all NOT equally desired by groups.........SOE lied."There are so many variables that could effect your statement its not even funny. This is your opinion, maybe there are a lot of other fighter class's on your server, if so most groups don't want 2 pallys, or 2 bezerkers. I personally have never been in a group where we said "No don't get "Insert Fighter Class Here" they are not as good at tanking". We see who is looking for group and grab someone close to our level. If there was a Guardian and another class of the same level LFG we would grab the class that made most sense, if we already had a Monk, Pally, or Zerker we would pick the Guardian. I don't even play a Guardian, as a healer I don't see your argument. The people who I know that play other fighting class's don't seem to have a problem getting groups.

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Namilla wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GraymaneGraviticus wrote:<BR> <DIV>"What is so wrong with Guardians wanting other tanks abilities since other classes want to be Main Tank?"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe because SOE promised ALL tanks would be able to be "able to tank equally well <FONT color=#ff3300>in most situations</FONT>".....they never promised Guardians would have other tanks abilities, but they did promise that all tanks would be able to tank equally well <FONT color=#ff3300>in most situations</FONT>. Now, that means that since Guardians, without all the abilities other tanks have, can obviously tanks better than the other tanks, it means SOE renegged on their promise and owes all the other tanks compensation for fraudulently misrepresenting that they would be able to tank as well as Guardians. Now, what, exactly, did SOE promise your class that they failed to deliver on? </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Why does everyone leave this part out? <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Why is it that guardians can tank in "all situations" and the part that is left out never applies to them?<BR>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Namilla wrote:<BR> <BR> SOE never said EVER that all fighter based classes were meant to do the same jobs always. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You know what, you are right.</P> <P>Please tell me one example where the guardian subclass isn't the desired/better tank.  I would like a list of examples where other fighter classes have the advantage over a guardian in a tanking situation.</P> <P>That they did say.<BR></P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> sidgb wrote:<BR> <DIV>Gray,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Talk to me about fair when a non-guardian gets picked over a guardian for DPS reasons.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What part of this do you not understand?</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Then ask for increased DPS and utility, they can code that at the same time they code in the stuff to make the other fighters tank better.<BR>

[Eelyen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zindak wrote:<BR>"what they said was that we would all be able to tank equally well enough that we would ALL be equally desired by groups<BR><BR>since the reality is that we are all NOT equally desired by groups.........SOE lied."<BR><BR>There are so many variables that could effect your statement its not even funny. This is your opinion, maybe there are a lot of other fighter class's on your server, if so most groups don't want 2 pallys, or 2 bezerkers. I personally have never been in a group where we said "No don't get "Insert Fighter Class Here" they are not as good at tanking". We see who is looking for group and grab someone close to our level. If there was a Guardian and another class of the same level LFG we would grab the class that made most sense, if we already had a Monk, Pally, or Zerker we would pick the Guardian. <BR><BR>I don't even play a Guardian, as a healer I don't see your argument. The people who I know that play other fighting class's don't seem to have a problem getting groups.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>I have to agree, I'd do the same thing.</P> <P>Last night my guild had a 5 man group in EL.  Myself, the Guardian, 2 Berserkers (1 was mentoring),  A Templar, and a Warden.</P> <P>So we had 3 tanks and 2 healers.  Well a monk showed up that wanted to join the group and mentor.  (This is all on test last night).  So we snagged him.  So we had 4 tanks and 2 healers.   Big deal, it was still a group.   And the nice thing about it was, we could all tank <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Generally when you have openings you take what you can get.  As i've said before, it's not like every group has unlimited access to whatever classes they want.</P>

[Eelyen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Namilla wrote:<BR> <BR> SOE never said EVER that all fighter based classes were meant to do the same jobs always. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You know what, you are right.</P> <P>Please tell me one example where the guardian subclass isn't the desired/better tank.  I would like a list of examples where other fighter classes have the advantage over a guardian in a tanking situation.</P> <P>That they did say.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>The other day, a friend from another guild asked me if I'd help him with a quest mob for the SBH quest in Nek.  I was like sure and he said great, he needed 2 higher levels to mentor down to my level in the group.  So I didn't ask what classes they were.  So I showed up and the 2 higher levels were a paladin and some other class. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well they mentored down to my level.  Guess who the tank was?  Yea, the paladin.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Was I asked to be the tank in that situation? No.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Are Guardians the desired tank in all situations? No.</DIV>

[Eelyen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> sidgb wrote:<BR> <DIV>Gray,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Talk to me about fair when a non-guardian gets picked over a guardian for DPS reasons.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What part of this do you not understand?</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Then ask for increased DPS and utility, they can code that at the same time they code in the stuff to make the other fighters tank better.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Don't care for increased dps.  All I wanted to do when I went for Guardian was to be able to hold aggro and take damage.  If I can do that, I'm doing my job as a pure tank.</P> <P> </P> <P>Edit: yea I think I'm starting to like it your way, I don't have to have 2 or 3 windows open and do a bunch of manual quotes <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Eelyen on <span class=date_text>03-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:17 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eelyen wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>The other day, a friend from another guild asked me if I'd help him with a quest mob for the SBH quest in Nek.  I was like sure and he said great, he needed 2 higher levels to mentor down to my level in the group.  So I didn't ask what classes they were.  So I showed up and the 2 higher levels were a paladin and some other class. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well they mentored down to my level.  Guess who the tank was?  Yea, the paladin.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Was I asked to be the tank in that situation? No.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Are Guardians the desired tank in all situations? No.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Alright, I must not have worded that right.  There has been xp groups where I've tanked over a guardian (usually lower lvl though, I tend to defer tanking to higher lvl plate classes because my DPS is so much better).</P> <P>What I meant was if anyone could think of a scenario where the guardian wouldn't have the advantage or be even.</P> <P>Moorgard's statement was that the class differences would invariably lead to scenarios where one class had the advantage over the other.</P> <P>What I'm curious about is whether or not I'm interpreting him wrong. </P> <P>Was that statement his way of saying "guardians are the best tanks" without saying it in a way to illicit these types of responses, or was he actually being totally truthful.</P> <P>While I appreciate and understand that all fighters can efficiently tank to lvl 50 (because I did it) I can't think of one scenario where you swap in a guardian for any fighter class and the guardian performs worse.</P> <P>Supposedly wards aren't as effective on plate tanks as they are on evasion tanks, but I have yet to see a scenario where the descrepancy is enough to make the monk preferred over the guardian.  If anything both tanks are adequate in that scenario.</P> <P>So while there are numerous scenarios where the guardian has the advantage over other fighters (as Moorgard stated) I really can't think of one, let alone a repeatable one (such as a certain raid mob) where any fighter class at all has a distinct advantage over the guardian.<BR></P>

[sidgb]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> sidgb wrote:<BR> <DIV>Gray,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Talk to me about fair when a non-guardian gets picked over a guardian for DPS reasons.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What part of this do you not understand?</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Then ask for increased DPS and utility, they can code that at the same time they code in the stuff to make the other fighters tank better.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Then ask for better tanking ability while also demanding that other tank classes get a boost in DPS and special abilities to maintain balance rather then looking out just for number one.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In reply sony can implement the fighter class at the highest levels and give exactly the same skills but change the names for flavor. Names like:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ego taunt - Guardian</DIV> <DIV>Tiger taunt - Monk</DIV> <DIV>Vulgar taunt - zerker</DIV> <DIV>Curse taunt - SK</DIV> <DIV>Condemnation taunt - Paladin</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know a game where all are the same except for the labels makes me feel like there is a real difference.</DIV>

[Eelyen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eelyen wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>The other day, a friend from another guild asked me if I'd help him with a quest mob for the SBH quest in Nek.  I was like sure and he said great, he needed 2 higher levels to mentor down to my level in the group.  So I didn't ask what classes they were.  So I showed up and the 2 higher levels were a paladin and some other class. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well they mentored down to my level.  Guess who the tank was?  Yea, the paladin.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Was I asked to be the tank in that situation? No.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Are Guardians the desired tank in all situations? No.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Alright, I must not have worded that right.  There has been xp groups where I've tanked over a guardian (usually lower lvl though, I tend to defer tanking to higher lvl plate classes because my DPS is so much better).</P> <P>What I meant was if anyone could think of a scenario where the guardian wouldn't have the advantage or be even.</P> <P>Moorgard's statement was that the class differences would invariably lead to scenarios where one class had the advantage over the other.</P> <P>What I'm curious about is whether or not I'm interpreting him wrong. </P> <P>Was that statement his way of saying "guardians are the best tanks" without saying it in a way to illicit these types of responses, or was he actually being totally truthful.</P> <P>While I appreciate and understand that all fighters can efficiently tank to lvl 50 (because I did it) I can't think of one scenario where you swap in a guardian for any fighter class and the guardian performs worse.</P> <P>Supposedly wards aren't as effective on plate tanks as they are on evasion tanks, but I have yet to see a scenario where the descrepancy is enough to make the monk preferred over the guardian.  If anything both tanks are adequate in that scenario.</P> <P>So while there are numerous scenarios where the guardian has the advantage over other fighters (as Moorgard stated) I really can't think of one, let alone a repeatable one (such as a certain raid mob) where any fighter class at all has a distinct advantage over the guardian.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>I think the game will end up being a result of it's players like Everquest 1 was.  In my honest opinion, 6 years ago.  The difference between a warrior and pally/sk's was a thin line.  It honestly didn't matter which one you had in groups.  Warriors were "better" tanks, but it really didn't matter.  Which it kinda works like that in eq2 as you express it.  On raids, it really didn't matter cause there wasn't many main tanks early on.  It was more of a, kill it before it kills us, style.  </P> <P>But during Velious Main Tanking started taking form, from my experience.  Defensive had come in during Kunark, but I really didn't hear big things about it till Velious.  This was where the line started growing every so greater and greater.  This is why they said defensive was overpowered but it was such an important part of raid strategy that they weren't going to change it.</P> <P>EQ2 is different.  People have already giving examples of the fact that Berserkers and Monks can tank on raids.  Given monks may not be able to do it as well due to the way avoidance ends up working.  But it is doable. </P> <P>But out of 350,000 people, how many do you think really read this boards, or other boards specially on who the best tank is.  As I posted in the other thread, people will just honestly believe the Guardian is the best tank.  Out of all the fighter classes, the name alone provides the notion that they are the top dog type tank.  How many have participated in this thread? 20-30 people?  Out of 350000.  Thats a very very very small minority.</P> <P>There really will never be an end to this debate. Never.  Even if a Dev showed up and gave an official view on it.  Which will take a little while for them to decide.  Even if they gave it to us.  People would still argue with each other and the devs.  This arguement will last until the end of time.</P> <P>But for the most part what Moor said is true.  EQ2 is different and all of the fighters are tanks and can tank very equally well in groups.  Which is nothing like EQ1.  And I have no complaints with it. </P> <P>Message Edited by Eelyen on <SPAN class=date_text>03-03-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:55 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Eelyen on <span class=date_text>03-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:56 PM</span>

[Telad]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> sidgb wrote:<BR> <DIV>Gray,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Talk to me about fair when a non-guardian gets picked over a guardian for DPS reasons.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What part of this do you not understand?</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>This is interesting. Yea ok I have tanked with this one guardian many time and I am a troubadour of the same level and no matter how hard I try I have a hard time of beating his DPS, 3 parsers in the group all giving the guardian around 150 dps while i was gettin 100-120 dps... so what are you complainging about? oh and yes the guardian was tanking at the time of him doing this dps<BR><BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> </BLOCKQUOTE>

[Namil]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eelyen wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eelyen wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>The other day, a friend from another guild asked me if I'd help him with a quest mob for the SBH quest in Nek.  I was like sure and he said great, he needed 2 higher levels to mentor down to my level in the group.  So I didn't ask what classes they were.  So I showed up and the 2 higher levels were a paladin and some other class. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well they mentored down to my level.  Guess who the tank was?  Yea, the paladin.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Was I asked to be the tank in that situation? No.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Are Guardians the desired tank in all situations? No.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Alright, I must not have worded that right.  There has been xp groups where I've tanked over a guardian (usually lower lvl though, I tend to defer tanking to higher lvl plate classes because my DPS is so much better).</P> <P>What I meant was if anyone could think of a scenario where the guardian wouldn't have the advantage or be even.</P> <P>Moorgard's statement was that the class differences would invariably lead to scenarios where one class had the advantage over the other.</P> <P>What I'm curious about is whether or not I'm interpreting him wrong. </P> <P>Was that statement his way of saying "guardians are the best tanks" without saying it in a way to illicit these types of responses, or was he actually being totally truthful.</P> <P>While I appreciate and understand that all fighters can efficiently tank to lvl 50 (because I did it) I can't think of one scenario where you swap in a guardian for any fighter class and the guardian performs worse.</P> <P>Supposedly wards aren't as effective on plate tanks as they are on evasion tanks, but I have yet to see a scenario where the descrepancy is enough to make the monk preferred over the guardian.  If anything both tanks are adequate in that scenario.</P> <P>So while there are numerous scenarios where the guardian has the advantage over other fighters (as Moorgard stated) I really can't think of one, let alone a repeatable one (such as a certain raid mob) where any fighter class at all has a distinct advantage over the guardian.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>I think the game will end up being a result of it's players like Everquest 1 was.  In my honest opinion, 6 years ago.  The difference between a warrior and pally/sk's was a thin line.  It honestly didn't matter which one you had in groups.  Warriors were "better" tanks, but it really didn't matter.  Which it kinda works like that in eq2 as you express it.  On raids, it really didn't matter cause there wasn't many main tanks early on.  It was more of a, kill it before it kills us, style.  </P> <P>But during Velious Main Tanking started taking form, from my experience.  Defensive had come in during Kunark, but I really didn't hear big things about it till Velious.  This was where the line started growing every so greater and greater.  This is why they said defensive was overpowered but it was such an important part of raid strategy that they weren't going to change it.</P> <P>EQ2 is different.  People have already giving examples of the fact that Berserkers and Monks can tank on raids.  Given monks may not be able to do it as well due to the way avoidance ends up working.  But it is doable. </P> <P>But out of 350,000 people, how many do you think really read this boards, or other boards specially on who the best tank is.  As I posted in the other thread, people will just honestly believe the Guardian is the best tank.  Out of all the fighter classes, the name alone provides the notion that they are the top dog type tank.  How many have participated in this thread? 20-30 people?  Out of 350000.  Thats a very very very small minority.</P> <P>There really will never be an end to this debate. Never.  Even if a Dev showed up and gave an official view on it.  Which will take a little while for them to decide.  Even if they gave it to us.  People would still argue with each other and the devs.  This arguement will last until the end of time.</P> <P>But for the most part what Moor said is true.  EQ2 is different and all of the fighters are tanks and can tank very equally well in groups.  Which is nothing like EQ1.  And I have no complaints with it. </P> <P>Message Edited by Eelyen on <SPAN class=date_text>03-03-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:55 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Eelyen on <SPAN class=date_text>03-03-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:56 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I agree with you. Well said.<BR>

[Talaprie]

Guardians are the best raid tanks at 45+ ..pallys and sks cap out at about half the HPS and AC of gaurdians...on test guardians cap out at 15k and pallys and sks at 7k...so who do you want to tank raid mobs? When SOE said "equal in most cases, thats exactly what they meant, and when they add +50 who do you think will be the raid tanks? Because like it or not they will add content post 50.but in groups they dont hold agro the best..everytime grouped with a zerker they hold agro much better, some classes are better at some things some at others, i have to agree all the classes are broken at this time in one aspect or another.

[Faedor]

Cool a TANK thread... I wanna play.So we went to Obelisk, down deep just for fun before this mornings 2 hour patch...We took 4 paladins, omg what a blast. We didn't really argue who was gonna tank, it was an issue of who kept aggro.Since, yours truly, kept aggro after bout 5 fights, one of the other pallies, tossed his concentrations on me (more ac, etc), the lower level pally said hey my skills keep missing, I r now the main healer, and the 4th pally dropped his concentrations went pure proc mad and we had just the 4 of us, 2 with EBBCs, 1 healer (shield extra wis power, etc) and me with some sick 2 handed mace. our avg level prob about 42-43 and we were walking through 44^^ and named like swiss cheese... It wouldn't have mattered if it was a pally, guardian, beserker, or monk... we would have equally moved into the positions that benefited the group the most... the goal, kill the most things as fast as possible to increase the chances of getting a master chest drop.I think this thread isn't about ability, it's about respect.I know I COULD tank the Kra'Thuk, but why? We have a guardian for that... and if for some reason our sexy guardian dies, we have a beserker sitting there with DPS from holy hell ready to offtank while we get our main up... and if that isn't the most fun, we have 6 pallies chain healing with EBBCs rdy to PWN any adds, and we could have monks pulling ninjistu DPS kiting the dirge feared mobs PWND... um... we could have a million different strats... it isn't an issue of skills... whether it's in a group or raid, classes have functions.. some may be useful, and sure you could have 12 clerics and have a pally with a hasted 1 hander tank a god mob (um reposte?)... but why? The efficiency of each class and what they can and cannot do should be factored into your equations.The truth is they are different classes. All tank classes can tank in a group just fine, just ducky! When it comes to strategic raiding, there is often more to it than, oh let's try a monk... some things may work better, a monk on a certain mob and a guardian on the next...Anywho, just had to add my 2cp to this funny thread.Just remember, "Only posers die!"Faedorne, Unitas @ Butcherblock

[ugl]

<DIV>All tanks should tank equally, when...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All mages can DPS equally.  Yes, your going to have to have enchanters throwing ice comets.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All scouts can DPS equally.  Yes, bards are going to have to do the same damage as a assassin.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All healers must be able to throw heals exactley the same as a templer, etc. etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am not sure why one argues that all tanks should TANK equally when its obvious none of the other arch types are meant to do their primary archtype role equally.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This discussion is going on on 5 different threads, including another thread in this forum, as well as the monk and guardian forums.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Repeat your tired, dead argument as often and loudly as you can and maybe they will eventually buy yer BS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>