Did Mentoring XP penalty go WAY up overnight or what?

[Fraxc]

<DIV>Swear to god, yesterday, I was eating a 50% penalty for mentoring my L9 friend with my L13 character, now, I mentor a total stranger today, and it's 90% penalty for the same level?! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Uhhh...either the penalty got patched to be WAY higher, or there's something that hasn't been properly explained to us going on (re: vitality.). </DIV>

[Rarad]

<DIV>Well, it did need to be reduced. When you get more experience mentoring someone 10 or 20 levels below you then you would soloing mobs your own level, then you know it has to be adjusted.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Fraxc]

<DIV>There's a difference between a reduction and an outright nerf. Grouping with my lower-level friend last night was fun. Now it will simply be more useless tedium. :robotmad:</DIV>

[Kwoung]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fraxcat wrote:<BR> <DIV>There's a difference between a reduction and an outright nerf. Grouping with my lower-level friend last night was fun. Now it will simply be more useless tedium. :robotmad:</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>First off, there is no such thing as a nerf on Test Server.</P> <P>As for XP gain, the devs stated a few times they will be playing around with the vaules until they find where they work best. As for the 25, 50 or 90% XP reduction, ignore that message.. it is meaning less. With a 50% reduction, I was gaining XP 3x faster mentoring a level 14 than I could get it hunting at my own level. </P> <P>As for the fun.. the fun should be being able to group with and help your friend catch up. How much xp was he getting with your grouping? Was the fun not in being able to group with your friend, but only in the fact that you were getting insane XP while doing so?</P>

[aeio]

I would be fine with them giving zero experience or close to it for those being mentors. The goal is to help out friends and guildmates. I look at it as you giving up your experience to give it to your friend you are mentoring, which they get in the form of a bonus.It should be significantly slower to earn experience as a mentor than it would be normally.

[Palleon]

<DIV>Totally agree. Why should you get tons of XP at level 30 for killing mobs at level 10? Mentoring is a way to help lower people and allow friends to group, not a way to help higher levels level quicker. </DIV> <DIV>IMHO xp for the higher level should be zero, and normal xp for the person being mentored. Thus reducing power levelling, stopping the lower level missing out on the lower game content (which is half the game!), and making sure only people who want to <U>help</U> those lower than them take part.</DIV>

[Fraxc]

<DIV>You know, I played Asheron's Call for FOUR YEARS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Leveling is not fun. Ever. Period. End of story. Anything that negates the Treadmill Effect is a good thing. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It wasn't fun in Asheron's Call.</DIV> <DIV>It wasn't fun in Ultima Online.</DIV> <DIV>It wasn't fun in Anarchy Online.</DIV> <DIV>It wasn't fun in Everquest 1.</DIV> <DIV>It wasn't fun in Star Wars Galaxies.</DIV> <DIV>It wasn't fun in Earth and Beyond.</DIV> <DIV>It wasn't fun in Asheron's Call 2.</DIV> <DIV>It's not fun in World of Warcraft.</DIV> <DIV>It's not fun in Everquest 2.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mabye some of you guys haven't been through as many MMO's as I have, so you don't understand this one simple precept: That no matter how fast or slow people level, you will ALWAYS have idiots at the endgame that don't understand how to play. Placing some punitive function on those that *do* have the intelligence to handle new situations and adapt is pointless. Particularly for people like myself that solo or duo 99% of the time. Leveling past 24 solo is painfully slow and pointless. Duo'ing? I don't know, because I left my friend in the dust, and she doesn't play as much as I do. Even if I spent every minute I could mentoring her with a ludicrous 90% penalty, she'd *never* catch up with whatever bonus she had. I don't mind the challenge of dropping to a lower level to help a friend, but if there's no direct benefit for me to do so, said friend can go find a group for all I care. I'm not online to work on other people's characters. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mentoring with the 50% penalty would've been a HUGE step forward for me to be able to convince more people to try and play this game, and get away from Asheron's Call, but with it at 90%, all they're going to do is laugh in my face. The way it SHOULD be handled is this:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1 person in group mentoring - 50% penalty for all mentors in group</DIV> <DIV>2 - 60% Penalty for all mentors in group</DIV> <DIV>3 - 70% penalty for all mentors in group</DIV> <DIV>4 - 80% penalty for all mentors in group</DIV> <DIV>5 - 90% penalty for all mentors in group</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>OR (and this seems like a better long-term setup to me):</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Base character Level 10 to 20 - 50% penalty</DIV> <DIV>21 to 30 - 65% penalty</DIV> <DIV>31 to 40 - 80% penalty</DIV> <DIV>41 to 50 - 95% penalty</DIV> <DIV>50+ (presumably after an expansion raises the level cap) - 100% penalty</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The second one would force people into grouping for content closer to their level as rewards for mentoring drop substantially past 30. You could even separate it out by level increments on the 5's and have a smoother scaling penalty increase.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That way, the people that are helping guildmates level are truly doing something charitable for their friends, but those of use that duo/trio aren't completely wasting our time just to play with our friends. Right now, on Test, I can level a character to 14, SOLO, in two days. Doesn't it seem rather idiotic that I can outlevel my friend from SCRATCH to catch up with her faster than I can help her level with a mentoring character and still see a reasonable amount of advancement when we're *six levels apart*? <img src="/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Kas]

I would be most happy with the amount of exp a mentor gains being a dynamic value based on the difference between the mentor and the person who he is mentoring for.Difference of 1-5 levels, 60% exp cut from mentorDifference of 5-10 levels, 70% exp cut from mentorDifference of 10-15 levels, 80% exp cut from mentorDifference for 15+ levels, 90% exp cut from mentor

[Fraxc]

<DIV>That would also be viable.</DIV>

[Hallam]

<DIV>Why mentor a L9 with an L13, why not just group? Mentoring was meant to let people with LARGE lvl differences hunt together. In fact the system shouldn't allow people too close in lvl to "mentor" each other, as they wouldn't have the experience to do so.</DIV>

[Rarad]

<DIV>Fraxcat,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You seem to have a problem with the pace of leveling in general. I don't think they intended mentoring to be a means to relieve the tedium of leveling for the mentor...it is to help the lower level character. If they were going to change the pace of leveling in general they would adjust the amount of exp you get fighting mobs your own level...which they have done a few times, increasing it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think you will find that most of us here have played quite a few different MMO's. I have played most of the ones on your list, and tinkered in a few others. If you find leveling so boring why do you play this type of game? What is the point of rushing to an endgame that doesn't exist in eq2 yet? And even for games that do have an endgame, there are still people who enjoy the journey there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Fraxc]

<DIV>"What is the point of rushing to an endgame that doesn't exist in eq2 yet?"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why do you people always assume that someone that wants to level faster is rushing to level 50? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mabye I would just like to be able to level up to a point where I can complete the quests that are available to me WITHOUT being forced to group with five other people.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*shrug*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*edit* Oh, and I misspoke when I said my friend was level 9. She was level 8. It *would* be stupid to mentor someone within five levels of your character, unless you needed to complete a quest. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Fraxcat on <span class=date_text>03-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:11 PM</span>

[Aegori]

<DIV>I recall at least 1 thread out there where many were saying that they managed to level thru the higher levels much quicker mentoring than they could just outright XPing. There are still imbalances with the system that make it easier for people to lvl via the mentoring system than earning XP at their normal level. If this was changed, then it's a change for balance sake. Once the mentoring system is worked out and all the perceived exploits and imbalances are taken care of, the XP you earn can possibly be raised back up, but as it was... by mentoring some people were able to retain pets/buffs/etc. from their higher lvl state, making the lower lvl content trivial and easy to grind through.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Give it time, as this was just a change on test... definitely not the end of the world yet.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Aeg</DIV>

[StGabri]

<i>Leveling is not fun. Ever. Period. End of story. Anything that negates the Treadmill Effect is a good thing.</i>Speak for yourself. I've played many of the games on your list and many that aren't on your list. I enjoy leveling and achieving better, stronger abilities for my character over time. I have ever since I picked up rogue or nethack for the first time and I still do today.I think that any game that let me immediately (or almost immediately) warp to the maximum level would be a game that I would not play for very long. Bully for you that you have played a lot of games but you've only played them as <i>yourself</i> and I find your generalizations over all players lacking.StGabe.

[Miral]

<DIV>heh leveling in Ultima Online was mad fun....  especially since there was no such thing as leveling in Ultima Online...</DIV>

[Fafnir]

<DIV> <DIV>To my mind, mentoring seems to have a few purposes:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>1. grouping with guildies to help them along;</DIV> <DIV>2. grouping with your normal group mates who created a lower level alt, to help them along;</DIV> <DIV>3. dropping your con so that you can kill named and get items that you've outlevelled</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>1 and 2 don't really require you to get any meaningful xp.  Getting some is good though.  But if I'd want xp and loot compatible with my level, I would think it makes sense to xp with people my own level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3 would be my primary use (assuming it works that way).</DIV></DIV>

[Despak]

<blockquote><hr>Fraxcat wrote:<DIV>There's a difference between a reduction and an outright nerf. Grouping with my lower-level friend last night was fun. Now it will simply be more useless tedium. :robotmad:</DIV><hr></blockquote>lol some friend you are, I will only play with you if it benefits me!!Other than that 13 minus 8 is still only 5 levels - so again; why mentor?

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fraxcat wrote:<BR> <DIV>You know, I played Asheron's Call for FOUR YEARS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Leveling is not fun. Ever. Period. End of story. Anything that negates the Treadmill Effect is a good thing. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It wasn't fun in Asheron's Call.</DIV> <DIV>It wasn't fun in Ultima Online.</DIV> <DIV>It wasn't fun in Anarchy Online.</DIV> <DIV>It wasn't fun in Everquest 1.</DIV> <DIV>It wasn't fun in Star Wars Galaxies.</DIV> <DIV>It wasn't fun in Earth and Beyond.</DIV> <DIV>It wasn't fun in Asheron's Call 2.</DIV> <DIV>It's not fun in World of Warcraft.</DIV> <DIV>It's not fun in Everquest 2.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mabye some of you guys haven't been through as many MMO's as I have, so you don't understand this one simple precept: That no matter how fast or slow people level, you will ALWAYS have idiots at the endgame that don't understand how to play. <FONT color=#ff9900>Placing some punitive function on those that *do* have the intelligence to handle new situations and adapt is pointless***.</FONT> Particularly for people like myself that solo or duo 99% of the time. <FONT color=#99ff00>Leveling past 24 solo is painfully slow and pointless***</FONT>. Duo'ing? I don't know, because I left my friend in the dust, and she doesn't play as much as I do. Even if I spent every minute I could mentoring her with a ludicrous 90% penalty, she'd *never* catch up with whatever bonus she had. I don't mind the challenge of dropping to a lower level to help a friend, but if there's no direct benefit for me to do so, said friend can go find a group for all I care. I'm not online to work on other people's characters. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mentoring with the 50% penalty would've been a HUGE step forward for me to be able to convince more people to try and play this game, and get away from Asheron's Call, but with it at 90%, all they're going to do is laugh in my face. The way it SHOULD be handled is this:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1 person in group mentoring - 50% penalty for all mentors in group</DIV> <DIV>2 - 60% Penalty for all mentors in group</DIV> <DIV>3 - 70% penalty for all mentors in group</DIV> <DIV>4 - 80% penalty for all mentors in group</DIV> <DIV>5 - 90% penalty for all mentors in group</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>OR (and this seems like a better long-term setup to me):</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Base character Level 10 to 20 - 50% penalty</DIV> <DIV>21 to 30 - 65% penalty</DIV> <DIV>31 to 40 - 80% penalty</DIV> <DIV>41 to 50 - 95% penalty</DIV> <DIV>50+ (presumably after an expansion raises the level cap) - 100% penalty</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The second one would force people into grouping for content closer to their level as rewards for mentoring drop substantially past 30. You could even separate it out by level increments on the 5's and have a smoother scaling penalty increase.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That way, the people that are helping guildmates level are truly doing something charitable for their friends, but those of use that duo/trio aren't completely wasting our time just to play with our friends. Right now, on Test, I can level a character to 14, SOLO, in two days. Doesn't it seem rather idiotic that I can outlevel my friend from SCRATCH to catch up with her faster than I can help her level with a mentoring character and still see a reasonable amount of advancement when we're *six levels apart*? <img src="/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>***who decides which players belong to that group - you on behalf of SOE?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#99ff00>***Leveling SHOULD be painfully slow and pointless - compared to simply playing the game (which is quite a lot of fun imho)</FONT></P>

[Lancealittle]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fafnir wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> But if I'd want xp and loot compatible with my level, I would think it makes sense to xp with people my own level.</DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You hit the nail on the head.</P> <P>Seems some people should not play on test if they complain when an exploit is taken away before it hits live servers.<BR></P>

[Eelyen]

<DIV>Agreed.  It's very annoying.</DIV>

[Kizee]

<DIV><EM>Leveling is not fun. Ever. Period. End of story. Anything that negates the Treadmill Effect is a good thing.</EM></DIV> <P><EM></EM> </P> <P>Umm...why play a MMORPG if you don't like leveling? Most people like to develop their character since the journey is most of the fun in this type of game.</P> <P>I have played alot of MMORPGs and I have always loved leveling and getting stronger.</P> <P> </P> <P>IMO there shouldn't be any exp for the higher level...be thankful you are getting the little exp that you are.<BR></P><p>Message Edited by Kizee on <span class=date_text>03-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:54 AM</span>

[Fraxc]

<DIV>" <P><FONT color=#99ff00>***Leveling SHOULD be painfully slow and pointless - compared to simply playing the game (which is quite a lot of fun imho)"</FONT></P> <P>Generally, I'd agree with that...except there's a rather prolific problem in this game that you can't solo a lot of the quests you want to do at the levels you *get* them. </P> <P> </P> <P>Thankful? Screw that. How about this: I just stop mentoring my friend and tell her to do what I did: Find a freakin' group. That way, we both get what we want, and neither one of us gets screwed out of time, loot, and effort. I'm thankful that I've got a friend that has enough of a brain to understand the issues here, and also that she'd probably do the same to me if the roles were reversed...</P> <P>Not that THAT would ever occur with how infrequently she plays. <img src="/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P></DIV>

[Lancealittle]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fraxcat wrote:<BR> <DIV>" <P><FONT color=#99ff00>***Leveling SHOULD be painfully slow and pointless - compared to simply playing the game (which is quite a lot of fun imho)"</FONT></P> <P>Generally, I'd agree with that...except there's a rather prolific problem in this game that you can't solo a lot of the quests you want to do at the levels you *get* them. </P> <P> </P> <P>Thankful? Screw that. How about this: I just stop mentoring my friend and tell her to do what I did: Find a freakin' group. That way, we both get what we want, and neither one of us gets screwed out of time, loot, and effort. I'm thankful that I've got a friend that has enough of a brain to understand the issues here, and also that she'd probably do the same to me if the roles were reversed...</P> <P>Not that THAT would ever occur with how infrequently she plays. <img src="/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Think of mentoring as a way to help a friend out till she gets to your level. That's not the only time it can be usefull, but it seems the only thing you want out of this game is xps. If you want have fun grouping with her with your current character you should hide your xp bar so you don't look at it and then pretend you're not getting any.</P> <P>There's also another way to keep yourself at a level where you can group together and both get full xps. Have a character slot you use only when grouping with her. You say she's level 9. How long would it take you to make a new character that you can use when she's on? </P> <P><BR> </P>

[SavinDwa]

<DIV>Fraxcat,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe its just my EQ1 background, but I like the mentoring ability and would be happy to get zero exp.  I did it all the time in EQ1.  I would go take my level 60+ cleric out, mem a bunch of sub 50 spells and go help them level.  It was a little to easy for everyone, but at least I was with my friends.  On other occassions I would just go help a bunch I had never seen before.  You used to see clerics and druids do this a lot since both classes really lent themselves to the role in EQ1.  It never dawned on me to want to get experience for the effort.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For me, and most of my friends, the game is about having fun with friends.  If it were about leveling then:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Who would ever group with players lower than your self?</DIV> <DIV>2) Who would ever group with a pick up group?</DIV> <DIV>3) AS a crafter you would never make anything except the highest level stuff... if your friends want stuff then they can become crafters themselves.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I could go on and on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They have now found a way to allow higher level players to group with lower level players.... that is a good thing.  I suspect they will change it multiple times before they get it right, that is what test is for.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One thing is sure, I should never be in a situation where a level 40 player can get experience faster mentoring a level 10 player than being in a group of 6 level 40s taking out mobs of the right level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Samnas]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fraxcat wrote:<BR> <DIV>" <P><FONT color=#99ff00>***Leveling SHOULD be painfully slow and pointless - compared to simply playing the game (which is quite a lot of fun imho)"</FONT></P> <P>Generally, I'd agree with that...except there's a rather prolific problem in this game that you can't solo a lot of the quests you want to do at the levels you *get* them. </P> <P> </P> <P>Thankful? Screw that. How about this: I just stop mentoring my friend and tell her to do what I did: Find a freakin' group. That way, we both get what we want, and neither one of us gets screwed out of time, loot, and effort. I'm thankful that I've got a friend that has enough of a brain to understand the issues here, and also that she'd probably do the same to me if the roles were reversed...</P> <P>Not that THAT would ever occur with how infrequently she plays. <img src="/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You have played so many MMO and have never enjoyed one of the biggest parts of most of them... levelling.  Why play?  So you can whine on the messageboards?  Now I dont enjoy going out and killing stuff just to watch my exp bar go up.  Spending time with friends and going through new contents whether it killing or questing is fun for me though and also happens to be levelling.   I cant imagine you being happy with an MMORPG unless it was designed specifically for you.</DIV>

[Bhagpuss]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Palleon wrote:<BR> <DIV>Totally agree. Why should you get tons of XP at level 30 for killing mobs at level 10? Mentoring is a way to help lower people and allow friends to group, not a way to help higher levels level quicker. </DIV> <DIV>IMHO xp for the higher level should be zero, and normal xp for the person being mentored. Thus reducing power levelling, stopping the lower level missing out on the lower game content (which is half the game!), and making sure only people who want to <U>help</U> those lower than them take part.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>A better solution, in my opinion, would be for the Mentor to actually become the level of his apprentice while he mentored. So a 40th Level mentoring a 20th level would show up on a /who as 20th and if he hunted for long enough in Mentoring mode would ding 21st.</P> <P>When mentoring was turned off, the Mentor would revert to his previous level, exactly as he left it.</P> <P>That way it would feel just like normal gameplay while you were mentoring and it would also, of course, allow the higher level to win loot while Mentoring which he might no longer be able to obtain himself, but which he might still have a use for - tradeskill books and Adepts come to mind.</P> <P>If a reward beyond helping the apprentice was needed, it could be given to the higher level character in the form of status points and would make a handy way for unguilded players to earn status with the City by helping to train other unguilded characters in the defence of the realms.</P>

[Aegori]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bhagpuss wrote:<BR> <P>A better solution, in my opinion, would be for the Mentor to actually become the level of his apprentice while he mentored. So a 40th Level mentoring a 20th level would show up on a /who as 20th and if he hunted for long enough in Mentoring mode would ding 21st.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>*raises his finger and opens his mouth as if about to say something*</P> <P>...</P> <P>nevermind...</P> <P>-Aeg<BR></P>

[Kwoung]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fraxcat wrote:<BR> <DIV>Swear to god, yesterday, I was eating a 50% penalty for mentoring my L9 friend with my L13 character, now, I mentor a total stranger today, and it's 90% penalty for the same level?! <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>I missed this originally. Did you even read the patch notes? You were are not supposed to get much if any reward for mentoring someone lower than level 10... the fact that you were was a blatant bug and you should have reported it. Thankfully, others did and it has been fixed.<BR>

[Dimidri]

<DIV>I would've been fine if they had NO exp for the mentor at all. I'm not mentoring to get exp, I want to mentor to have my friends or guild mates catch up. This game is more about getting exp, I enjoy playing with people I know more than random groups, mostly because I know that they can play decently, but also because, well, duh, they're my friends. Now I can actually group with my buddies when I want to, regardless of level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>IMO, this is not supposed to be an alternate way to gain exp for the mentor, but just for the pupil.</DIV>

[Jeridor]

I don't think a player should have to be penalized for helping another player. A slight reduction seems fine but I do mean slight. What kind of society thinks penalizing people for doing something good and admirable is appropriate?

[Vindicis]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jeridor wrote:<BR> What kind of society thinks penalizing people for doing something good and admirable is appropriate?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> The same society that thinks it can only do something good and admirable if it is rewarded.

[Dimidri]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jeridor wrote:<BR>I don't think a player should have to be penalized for helping another player. A slight reduction seems fine but I do mean slight. What kind of society thinks penalizing people for doing something good and admirable is appropriate?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I'm glad there are still some optimistic people left on earth... don't keep up with current events, you might change your mind about this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Back on topic, a favor does not need to be repayed. It's not a penalty to net get exp, it's a bonus to get it. The only thing you get from a real favor is the self-fulfillment. I don't see why you need a reward for everything you do that's good. There has to be a way to stop parents from bribing their kids man, it's ruining the world.</FONT></DIV>

[Jeridor]

<blockquote><hr>Vindicis wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Jeridor wrote:<BR> What kind of society thinks penalizing people for doing something good and admirable is appropriate?<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The same society that thinks it can only do something good and admirable if it is rewarded.<hr></blockquote>On the contrary I do not think you can fairly say that a mentor gaining experience is a reward. Even if the mentor gained experience at 80 or 90% normal (and apparently it's the reverse right now), they'd still be making less than they could hunting under normal circumstances in many cases. Certainly the loot would be far inferior. I'll help my friends regardless, but is there any good reason for me to get kicked in the teeth for doing so? It doesn't serve any good purpose to greatly cut down on the experience a mentor gains.

[Kwoung]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jeridor wrote:<BR><BR>On the contrary I do not think you can fairly say that a mentor gaining experience is a reward. Even if the mentor gained experience at 80 or 90% normal (and apparently it's the reverse right now), they'd still be making less than they could hunting under normal circumstances in many cases. Certainly the loot would be far inferior. I'll help my friends regardless, but is there any good reason for me to get kicked in the teeth for doing so? It doesn't serve any good purpose to greatly cut down on the experience a mentor gains.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>First off, the reward is being able to help your friends at all.. being kicked in the teeth so to speak, would be not being able to do so. As for the reduced XP, there are a good many reasons for it.. one of which I mentioned, mentoring is not designed to be an alternative method of ;leveling.. it is designed as a way for you to help friends. Beyond that, due to the way gear works and such, it does nopt scale back perfectly and what ends up happening is, as a mentor you are WAY more powerful at your reduced level than any player of that level could ever be. This could lead to huge exploits if the reward for doing so is to great... many of which we already saw on Test before they tweaked the XP reward down.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The most common exploit though, would be players mentoring their low level bot and afk macroing XP in a fast spawning noob zone with little to no risk... something you can not easilly or safely do hunting at your own level. So, the XP reward for mentoring someone far below you, needs to be reduced to the point of making that not a viable method of gaining XP.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bottom line, mentoring isn't about you and your XP gain, it is about the apprentice and his rate of XP and the fact that his friends can help him catch up or complete a quest he needs help with. We pointed out most of the possible exploits that could be done with mentoring to the devs, what you are seeing is the fixes from that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I find it interesting that in all the posts I have read about mentoring, not a single person has commented on the rate of XP for the apprentice (the entire point of mentoring), its always about the mentor and his XP... I think that says a lot about people.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Kwoung on <span class=date_text>03-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:41 AM</span>

[Jeridor]

Kwoung:I'll grant you that there needs to be some experience reduction based on the reasons you outlined, although ideally the team would make mentoring balanced rather than use reduced experience as some sort of equalizer - especially since the apprentice would be at a great advantage if the not only got bonus experience, but got a hunting partner who counted as less than one person in terms of xp gain and produced more than one person in terms of power.I personally never felt mentoring should be an alternate path to gain experience. Still, if I'm going to spend hours and days hunting, I'd like to have something to show for it. I'm all for helping my friends, but come on, do we really have to make it so that in order to do so you have to give away the farm? Surely there's something more fair than that. Even 50% experience would be fine in my book. This is a point where I should also mention that for me personally, few of the people I would be helping (based on those I know personally) would be new to EQ. Most would be alts of existing players. I think that factors into how much one can or should be expected to put forth to help people either.Look, I'm not a greedy or selfish guy. One of the few people I do know who is new to EQ I went and bought a bunch of 14 slot backpacks for at considerable cost to myself, for example. Why? I figured it would make his life easier and let him focus on the game and less on the item shuffling with tiny packs. I didn't throw down all that gold because I expected to get anything out of it. But there's still a limit to how far I'll go for friends. I'll spend a couple hours helping them with nothing to show for it, but I'm not going to spend a couple hours every day helping the same person for days on end on basic experience gaining if I'm gaining paltry experience in the process.I also think we can't shape our game around the issue of bots. It's an important issue, but if we build systems that inconvenience 'real' players for sake of curbing bots, who are we really hurting? I'd say the real players more so than the bots.As far as commenting about the gain for apprentice, I can't comment. I don't know what they gain, or if it's a suitable amount.I'm not trying to start a controversy here. If you honestly believe that one should throw everything they have into their friends with absolutely no concern for oneself then, well, good for you. That's your choice. I assume you follow that way of thought to the very letter, giving everything you own selflessly to others and taking the path of the samaritan who gives the shirt off his back to everyone you meet. That's great. But that's not how I intend to spend my time in a game. It is a game, after all.

[Fais]

<DIV>I dont know how to quote, but I would like to comment on some things said.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mentoring is not suppose to be a way for the Mentor to gain levels faster then they would having to fight mobs of thier true level.  If this is what is happening, then there simply should be no xp gain what so ever for the Mentor.  Or if there is, it should be rather minute.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This system is to allow folks that DO want to help and DO want to group with thier friends.  Its for people who are not worried about the leveling, but more about being able to group with thier friends and help them out if and when they need it.  Its not suppose to be a tool to level quicker, plain and simple.  If anything, its suppose to help the Mentee level a bit quicker, not the inverse.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Faxcat indicated he isnt online to work on other peoples characters.  Well that is fine.  Then Mentoring is not for you.  Do not mentor, and go get into normal groups, killing normal level ranges of mobs for your level.  I think the point of this system is missed entirely if you are worried about your own xp not gaining faster then it normally would, while in this system.</DIV>

[UrkBloodA]

<DIV>nice finding. (level 9 student level 13 mentor).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the question about the difference in level and the xp earned should be reviewed carefully.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>what happens when level 43 mentors a level 39 student?  90% xp penality? (not sure - but that doesn't seem reasonable)  </DIV> <DIV> what's the bonus xp for the student?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>how about level 14 mentor and level 10 appentice?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>((going back to looking for thread on equipment scaling.))</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Dimidri]

<DIV>In other games, people power level their friends for no gain at all. Just because they are doing it for their friends.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't see the need for any experience gain for a mentor, you can actually help your friends and guildies now, that should be way more than enough to make you want to use the new mentoring system. If I wanted to gain exp, I'll get an exp party. I'm not going to exp with me apprentice. That's one of the reasons mentoring is good, to bring the level of the apprentice high enough to group with the mentor. I don't even see the sense in mentor exp. Just cut the apprentice's exp by whatever it would normally be cut by from a two person party, but don't give the exp to the mentor or very little if exp is given.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>People never do anything nowadays if it isn't for self - profit in one way or another... heck, that's how it pretty much always was now wasn't it? Looks like the world never changes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Leveling is already pretty fast in this game... not too fast (WoW) but at a decent rate where you will never have to grind for a week non-stop with your static party for one level... now I'm off to find a way to forget doing that in FFXI.</DIV>

[Jeridor]

I think it's funny that one can be agreeable to gaining experience at half their normal rate so they can help a friend out and somehow you're greedy for that. I suppose if I provide crafted items at cost to people that's greedy too right? I should be giving it all away free? Mind you I have no problem with anyone who feels giving away everything for free is the way to go. More power to you. But it's not fair to say that's the only way to be generous and helpful. This idea that helping people isn't good enough unless you do it 'my' way doesn't help to create a friendlier community.Bottom line, would you rather see people helping each other more or not? If you would, then someone receiving enough compensation to simply offset *some* of their losses is not a huge request.<p>Message Edited by Jeridor on <span class=date_text>03-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:21 AM</span>

[Fais]

<DIV>Jeridor, I think you missed some of what was trying to be conveyed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not against someone getting xp still.  But, if the Mentor, is getting xp at an increased rate for his true level, then he normally would (not mentoring), then the system is not right.  And resulting complaining about it, can definetly be looked at in a "greedy" manner.  In my opinion, the way he stated it, was in a "greedy" aspect as some stated.  Whether that is what he meant or not, who knows.  But do you think you should be able to level, at the same rate, from level 40 - 41, by fighting mobs and mentoring a level 20?  The guy basically said he wasn't going to help, unless he was getting his too ("greedy"?), and in regards to a "friend".  Well as we all know, you can't always have your cake and eat it too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The purpose of the system is to help your friends or guildmates or be able to just group with them and play.  In my opinion, as it was origionally outlined or explained, its more of a selfless system, supposedly, for the Mentor.  The Mentor is suppose to be sacrificing somewhat, for the gain of the Mentee.  The Mentor isnt suppose to be able to level from 40 - 50 by Mentoring and grouping with a Level 10 or 20 or what not.  So yes, complaining about that type of xp is kind of ludicrous when you stop for a moment and think about what the system is suppose to accomplish.  Its suppose to be more for the Mentee, more then the Mentor.  If this is not satisfactory or acceptable, then dont Mentor your "friends".  Should he gain some xp from it?  Sure, but no where near the rate of xp gain and advancement that the level 20 is.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also think the comparison to crafting stuff is akin to comparing apples and oranges.  I, personally, dont think there is anything wrong with asking for cost for crafting items.  I personally would think you would be generous for doing so, rather then asking for some of the inane prices some things go for.</DIV>

[Jeridor]

Sorry, I should clarify I was mostly replying to others. I think that mentors should gain experience while mentoring and I personally tossed out the 50% figure. I was speaking of 50% of their normal gain if they were fighting something their own normal level. I do -not- think that making levels should be quicker than normal if you mentor people. I think it being slower than normal is fine, but how much slower is debatable.The crafting analogy I wouldn't say is apples/oranges. Both have a cost. For crafting it's time and money and for mentoring it's time (assuming you don't die, then it's money too). The only real difference in these two things is that in one scenario (crafting) the recepient of said kind act has to pay some money out of their pocket to cover the crafter's costs, while in the other example (mentoring) the game more or less pays that younger player's way. Still, as far as the person contributing assistance goes, it's apples and apples or oranges and oranges, whichever you prefer. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Speak]

<DIV>Quote</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Leveling is not fun. Ever. Period. End of story. Anything that negates the Treadmill Effect is a good thing. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It wasn't fun in Asheron's Call.</DIV> <DIV>It wasn't fun in Ultima Online.</DIV> <DIV>It wasn't fun in Anarchy Online.</DIV> <DIV>It wasn't fun in Everquest 1.</DIV> <DIV>It wasn't fun in Star Wars Galaxies.</DIV> <DIV>It wasn't fun in Earth and Beyond.</DIV> <DIV>It wasn't fun in Asheron's Call 2.</DIV> <DIV>It's not fun in World of Warcraft.</DIV> <DIV>It's not fun in Everquest 2.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well leveling is the nature of these game.  I think your list shows that leveling is a key compnonent of these games.   Thats said, what is the problem with leveling?  Only if you grind, and grinding levels is something a player does to himself, does these game become work and you have the treadmill. Having played all these games,  I can say I never saw a treadmill, but I can bet our playing styles are different.  The end game is not hitting the max level ASAP.  Its the game content and the journey through the content that matters.  There is a lot more to playing these games then playing max exp gain for min. effort.</DIV></DIV>

[Ada]

<DIV>I'm a bit confused on how experience is given to the mentor.  I had assumed early on that mentors would get some percentage of the experience points they would get had they been the level of the apprentice.  If a level 15 mentored a 13, then the experience wouldn't be very different than if they didn't mentor, but it would be a bit lower.  If a 45 mentored a 13, then the experience the mentor received would be trivial compared to the points they'd get as an acutal 45.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, from reading the latest patch notes and some of these threads, it appears the experience given is all percentage based (bubbles).  At some higher level you might normally see .025% of a level experience for a kill, but at a lower level you'd see 3% (12 times as much, relatively speaking).  If you give the mentor half of that 3%, they'd see .15% applied to their higher level bar, which is way more than they'd normally get.  I hope I'm reading this all wrong as this seems crazy.  It makes much more sense to me that a mob is worth x amount of points, and those points mean a different level percentage to people of different levels.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For mentoring, I'd like to either see the mentor gets no experience, or that they get some percentage of the mob's normal experience points (not percentage of the character's level).  Mentors close in level to the apprentice will see close to normal experience gain.  Mentors much higher than the apprentice would see very low experience gain.</DIV>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<DIV>Reading the thread now from top to bottom (and others reagrding the same theme) my educated guess is that 90% of players who are posting here are those mentoring their own alts by 2-boxing because (as allready mentioned by another poster) the XP of the mentor seem to be most  important.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I still havent made up my mind about mentoring itself but I have a feeling it will be nerfed/revamped constantly.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Tradeskill_Addict on <span class=date_text>03-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:35 AM</span>

[CloakV]

Idealy, as i understand the system, you should gain exp relative to as if you were fighting same con mobs when not mentoring.So for example a 30th level character gains .5% exp for killing a orange mob and a 20th level gets .75% exp for killing a orange mob. In normal game play circumstances. So when you mentor a 20th level character with your 30th level charcter and are killing what are now orange mobs to you (due to being reduced to the 20th levels status) you should still only get .5% exp per mob the same as you were killing a orange mob when you stop mentoring. That way no powerleveling for the higher level character whilst still making it viable. By all means give the lower level charcter bonus exp as a helping hand, at least that way you can be on a par level with your friends.

[Kwoung]

<DIV>Jeridor... keep in mind that in EQ, the "mentor" got zilch, anything is an increase above that. Folks would sit in lowbie zones for days on end PLing their friends with buffs, heals, damage shields, etc... heck, I did it myself many a time... all with no reward. What mentoring is, is a method to make it a little more interesting for both parties. The apprentice gets his/her increased XP gain and the direct help from a friend, who is rather powerful for their level, allowing them to kill stuff they normally wouldn't at that level (ie: even higher rate of XP gain for the apprentice).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The mentor on the other hand, instead of just having to time buffs and toss out the occassional heal, gets to participate in the actual hunting and get a bit of XP in return. As it sits now on Test, a higher level mentoring a teen gets little reward, mentoring a low 20's is a bit better and mentoring over level 25 is much better. This was done because of the gear scaling issues I mentioned abve, obviously gear scales pretty ok back to 25, so the mentor is not completely unbalanced power wise, thus recieves a greater reward for his time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All in all I think it is a pretty nice system and considering the goal is to let friends help friends catch up, there isn't a whole lot of reason for the mentor to gain any XP really, since he is after all trying to let his friend catch up... but, he gets some reward anyways and the closer in level his friend gets to him, the more XP the mentor earns.</DIV>

[Day]

<DIV>I would be happy with Mentoring if the one doing the Mentoring got zero XP during the mentoring, and the one being mentored got no bonus.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It isnt just about XP folks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>