If Adventuring worked like Crafting..... [Archive]

Samnas

03-01-2005, 08:36 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zDocWho wrote:<BR> <DIV>This will probably get me about a zillion 1 stars, but what the heck I am a frustrated crafter.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If Adventuring worked like Crafting:</DIV> <DIV> - Any loot dropped by mobs would sell to NPC vendors fro zero and the only way of making money would be to sell it to other players.</DIV> <DIV> - All quests would LOSE money. The player would have to pay to do quests - the higher the player level the more they would have to pay.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only input required by adventurers is TIME and since clearly SOE values time as zero, adventurers would not be able to sell their end product (drops) for anything to NPC vendors. Like crafters they would have to sell to other players to make money.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Crafter writs/tasks currently lose money in many cases. This is even the case if one harvests ones own raws (!) :smileysad:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by zDocWho on <SPAN class=date_text>03-01-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:54 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>What class/lvl are you that you lose money doing tasks harvesting your own materials? I have a T4 jeweler and T4 alchemist and I dont think it would be possible for me to lose money on a task if i harvest my own stuff and do my own subcombines. I agree for some tasks there should be more profit, but curious what class loses money doing them (if you are not buying broker raws).<BR>

ElMee

03-01-2005, 08:37 PM

<DIV>Yes, and if Crafting were similar to Adventuring you would have the following:</DIV> <DIV>1. Not be able to make anything worth while/sellable unless you grouped with at least 3 or 4 other crafters (2 of which had to be tank and healer equivelant).</DIV> <DIV>2. Everytime you failed an attempt to make an item you received crafting xp debt (same with your crafting group members)</DIV> <DIV>3. You couldn't use certain crafting tables unless you did some time consuming access quest to use the table/forge</DIV> <DIV>4. Everytime you would make something successful all of your fellow crafters you're grouped with would have to "roll" on that completed item</DIV> <DIV>5. There's endless comparisons i could put here but i'll leave it at that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You chose how to play the game, if you don't like it make an adventuring class if you think they have it so good. If that doesn't appeal to you go find something else to play.</DIV>

Lancealittle

03-01-2005, 08:38 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> zDocWho wrote:</P> <DIV>Ok for those of a slightly pedantic nature - let me rephrase what I said a little.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ffff><EM><STRONG>if Adventuring behaved in a similar manner to Crafting.....</STRONG></EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Which is the point I am trying to make.</DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I get your point, but I don't think that the two systems should mirror each other. </P> <P>I guess I could argue that crafting needs to be more like bowling, but I doubt I could get the devs to agree with me.</P> <P>The two systems are for different styles of play and the challenges and rewards come in different forms. You mention that you craft and adventure, so you see how they can compliment each other. It used to be that you could support your adventurer with your crafting, but now it has swung the other way. If you don't have a market to sell to players (the thorn in the side of crafters) then you can't craft and make coin.</P> <P>I'll go out on a limb and guess that you don't agree with the changes in the last large patch. The only think I can say is that it would have been nice if they had added in items that were in demand from other players at the same time as the patch. That's 'in the works', from what I hear, so hopefully you don't have to wait too long. </P>

zDocW

03-01-2005, 08:39 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Davish_Darkwolf wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV>>>> I adventure a fair amount. The word I used is <STRONG>REQUIREMENT</STRONG> - you do not HAVE to have the latest equipment, nor do you </DIV> <DIV> HAVE to have the best food/drink. These simply make your life easier.<<<</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No you dont, but for a melee class equipment is quite important (although skill of player is even more important).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But adventurers already have it hard as it is, money is not easy to get if you only adventure and dont craft.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Davish_Darkwolf on <SPAN class=date_text>03-01-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:24 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Try not to tell me if I adventure or not. You don't know anything about my adventuring habits, therefore are not qualified to make comments about how much I adventure or not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Again I repeat: The latest equipment, food, drink and spells is not a REQUIREMENT for any adventurer class, including melee. It makes life a LOT easier sure and it does mean you can attack higher level mobs with more reliability.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM><FONT color=#66ffff>An adventurer could progress through the whole game without spending a single copper</FONT></EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV>You would simply use drops/quests.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV>

Miral

03-01-2005, 08:43 PM

<DIV>a crafter could progress through the game and make a few copper here and there too... Just make final combines and sell them to the wholesaler. DO NOT CANCEL IN HOPES OF A BETTER QUALITY ITEM. Just spam your buffs or whatever and when you get crude or shaped on final, sell it to the wholesaler and you'll actually make a profit. not much, but it adds up after a while. And all in the comfort of some dude's storm cellar.</DIV>

Dashofpepp

03-01-2005, 08:46 PM

<DIV>Where's my crafting heritage quests?!? :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Retribution - Befallen</DIV>

Miral

03-01-2005, 08:47 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ElMeepo wrote:<BR> <DIV>Yes, and if Crafting were similar to Adventuring you would have the following:</DIV> <DIV>1. Not be able to make anything worth while/sellable unless you grouped with at least 3 or 4 other crafters (2 of which had to be tank and healer equivelant).</DIV> <DIV>2. Everytime you failed an attempt to make an item you received crafting xp debt (same with your crafting group members)</DIV> <DIV>3. You couldn't use certain crafting tables unless you did some time consuming access quest to use the table/forge</DIV> <DIV>4. Everytime you would make something successful all of your fellow crafters you're grouped with would have to "roll" on that completed item</DIV> <DIV>5. There's endless comparisons i could put here but i'll leave it at that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You chose how to play the game, if you don't like it make an adventuring class if you think they have it so good. If that doesn't appeal to you go find something else to play.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>that post made my day... or is it night? maybe morning? I dono.... been up for 30some hours</P> <P>anyways, I'd give ya 5 stars if I had the rating system enabled...</P>

Miral

03-01-2005, 08:49 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dashofpepper wrote:<BR> <DIV>Where's my crafting heritage quests?!? :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Retribution - Befallen</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Heh I dono, never knew there were uber crafting items in EQ1 =P Frying Pan of Doom? oh wait I think that was Super Mario RPG

Ethelwo

03-01-2005, 09:31 PM

<DIV>The real point is that both crafting and adventuring need to be worked more by SOE. They are striving to find that zero sum in crafting before they make it better. As for adventuring they realize that not enough cash loot drops in the game to support adventurers and allow them to buy more items from crafters. Loot for adventurers leads to profit for crafters. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Crafting does need major changes, I have listed some good examples of what kind of changes need to be made in previous posts. To balance the economy money needs to flow in both directions. From adventurer to crafter and to some extent back again. Combine this archetecture with the nessary money sinks and you come up with a relatively balanced economy. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One example is harvesting. Harvesting needs to be a trade class like provisioner or scholar. When a character gets level 20 he can choose a sub class such as mining or foresting. instead of skill increases for harvesting you should get trade experience for it. for instance you can't harvest in TS/Nek until you ding L20 trade.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Recipie books for specific items should drop in the game. For instance: An ubber recipie for a wizard/warlock robe should drop off a certain raid mob on occasion. These recipies can be sold to crafters by adventurers and require rare dropped or harvested items to create. The same mob can also drop recipie books for other wizard/warlock equipment on different occasions. This can hold true for all class specific items. Crafters will then be able to make the best gear in the game if they can buy the recipie and find the required items to create that item. This will take alot of work and the item made will not enter the market very often.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Everything has to be attuned now and that helps a great deal. Thats the zero sum that SOE was looking for in crafting. Now they need to expand the recipies.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Along with dropped master spell scrolls, Have mobs drop master spell recipie books on occasion as well. The crafters can have the chance to make master spells as well as adepts or apps. Providing they can come up with the rare componants to create the master spells.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Crafted equipment can have attachment slots. Sages can buy looted recipies to make runes. These runes will add stats, procs or other benefits to crafted items depending on the rune type and level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Alchemist can buy looted recipies for dyes and stains. In addition to the color the dyes/stains give to crafted items they can also add certain properties to crafted items like increasing the durability of the item so that a dyed L20 or L40 pristine crafted item can be equiped at 1 level lower then the a regular pristine item. They can aslo add properties such as increased deflection, defence and parry abilities to those who equip these dyed or stained items. Of course rare class specific created items may require a rare crafted dye or stain to create, or a rare crafted rune from a sage to create. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ideas abound why don't you all quit complaining and use your imagination and come up with some great game making ideas of your own. You never know what the developers may take to heart.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This game can have real depth to it. The sky isn't the limit, just your imagination.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

MaximumCarna

03-01-2005, 09:31 PM

<DIV>If adventuring was like crafting then monsters couldn't hurt you (unless you belonged to one class), but winning or lossing would be a matter of luck, your spells are all linked, some low level spells work better than you high level ones and your spells in genral are not very effective.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I really have a hard time beleiving what the Devs have done to crafting compaired to what it use to be like. Stopping exploits is one thing, but taking all the fun away and forcing crafters to sell to players without a real way to do so is depressing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can someone tell me how this crafting here is better or even equal to the drag and click method of other games?</DIV>

Davish_Darkwolf

03-01-2005, 09:56 PM

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT size=1> <HR> Davish_Darkwolf wrote:<BR></FONT> <DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1>>>> I adventure a fair amount. The word I used is <STRONG>REQUIREMENT</STRONG> - you do not HAVE to have the latest equipment, nor do you </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1> HAVE to have the best food/drink. These simply make your life easier.<<<</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1></FONT> </DIV></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1>No you dont, but for a melee class equipment is quite important (although skill of player is even more important).</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1>But adventurers already have it hard as it is, money is not easy to get if you only adventure and dont craft.</FONT></DIV> <P><FONT size=1>Message Edited by Davish_Darkwolf on <SPAN class=date_text><FONT color=#756b56>03-01-2005</FONT></SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:24 PM</SPAN><BR></FONT></P><FONT size=1> <HR> </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT size=1>Try not to tell me if I adventure or not. You don't know anything about my adventuring habits, therefore are not qualified to make comments about how much I adventure or not.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1>Again I repeat: The latest equipment, food, drink and spells is not a REQUIREMENT for any adventurer class, including melee. It makes life a LOT easier sure and it does mean you can attack higher level mobs with more reliability.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><EM><FONT color=#66ffff size=1>An adventurer could progress through the whole game without spending a single copper</FONT></EM></DIV> <DIV><EM><FONT size=1></FONT></EM> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1>You would simply use drops/quests.</FONT></DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Read slowly...... and maybe you understand i didnt say you didnt adventure... i said no you dont = "no you dont need to have the latest equipment" in responce to your statement.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Davish_Darkwolf on <span class=date_text>03-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:01 PM</span>

SavinDwa

03-01-2005, 09:56 PM

<DIV>zDocWho,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Although I may agree with some of the sentiment behind your post, I can't agree with many of the statements.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For instance, which tasks do you think lose money now if you harvest your own materials? If there are any then it is a bug in the costsing calculation and hopefully you have reported it. It seems to pretty accurately give you 160% of your cost back when it takes the products from you. That includes the fact you may have used two fuels on some of the new component recipes to make the item yourself.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You also state that :</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"If Adventuring worked like Crafting:</DIV> <DIV> - Any loot dropped by mobs would sell to NPC vendors fro zero and the only way of making money would be to sell it to other players.</DIV> <DIV> - All quests would LOSE money. The player would have to pay to do quests - the higher the player level the more they would have to pay."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I assume you are equating quests to workorders. But work orders generate a 60% profit on costs excluding harvested material. So to say that quests would lose money is unfair. Writs don't make money either on adventuring or tradeskills -- you get status points, so its the same here for both. My bigger problem with writs is there is no tradeskill equivalent to a heritage quest so there is no way for a pure crafter to generate the same guild status points as an adventurer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The other point missing is we need our "customers" to have cash to pay for our stuff. So there is nothing inherently wrong with the adventurers being the way cash comes into the economy. If the reverse were true, i.e. if adventuring made no money and the other generated of cash was crafters selling crafted stuff to NPCs, the economy would be broken. We crafters would have lots of cash, but our only customers would be each other since adventurers would have no cash to buy stuff.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The bigger balance issue here is "if the adventurers are the ones putting cash into the economy then SOE needs to make sure that they need to buy stuff from the crafters." At the moment many of the drops result in whole sectiosn of the crafting community having very few customers. This should be fixed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So now let me put a question to you. Lets say that crafters were able to make money has fast from selling to NPCs as they can selling to adventurers? In this case why would any of us sell to adventurers? They are hard to find, we don't know what they want, we sometimes make stuff we can't sell, our sales price is unpredictable etcs. We would just sell back to NPCs. [which is what happened early on and why we have so many more level 50 artisans than adventurers in some of the classes]</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lets go one more step. If the crafters are top be a self contained group that does not need the busienss of the adventurers ... what exactly is the point of being a crafter? To be honest, the crafting process is so boring, has such as lack of interaction, and is totally repetitive that the only point to do it is to make stuff for my friends. Fighting can get boring as well, but at least the scenary is interesting and changes as you level. As a level 50 tailor I can expect to be standing in front of the same loom doing the same thing as I do today and to get their all I need to do is about 8,000 combines more that are all practically identical. [I'm including WROTs etc.] This is what needs to eventually be fixed before we all go nuts. It would be so bad if we could talk to one another, but you have to click on the buffs inteliggently and watch events to make pristines .., so chating is not a real option.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

zDocW

03-01-2005, 10:28 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Davish_Darkwolf wrote:<BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT size=1> <HR> Davish_Darkwolf wrote:<BR></FONT> <DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1>>>> I adventure a fair amount. The word I used is <STRONG>REQUIREMENT</STRONG> - you do not HAVE to have the latest equipment, nor do you </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1> HAVE to have the best food/drink. These simply make your life easier.<<<</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1></FONT> </DIV></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1>No you dont, but for a melee class equipment is quite important (although skill of player is even more important).</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1>But adventurers already have it hard as it is, money is not easy to get if you only adventure and dont craft.</FONT></DIV> <P><FONT size=1>Message Edited by Davish_Darkwolf on <SPAN class=date_text><FONT color=#756b56>03-01-2005</FONT></SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:24 PM</SPAN><BR></FONT></P><FONT size=1> <HR> </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT size=1>Try not to tell me if I adventure or not. You don't know anything about my adventuring habits, therefore are not qualified to make comments about how much I adventure or not.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1>Again I repeat: The latest equipment, food, drink and spells is not a REQUIREMENT for any adventurer class, including melee. It makes life a LOT easier sure and it does mean you can attack higher level mobs with more reliability.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><EM><FONT color=#66ffff size=1>An adventurer could progress through the whole game without spending a single copper</FONT></EM></DIV> <DIV><EM><FONT size=1></FONT></EM> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1>You would simply use drops/quests.</FONT></DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Read slowly...... and maybe you understand i didnt say you didnt adventure... i said no you dont = "no you dont need to have the latest equipment" in responce to your statement.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Davish_Darkwolf on <SPAN class=date_text>03-01-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:01 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes - sorry about that - misunderstanding by me. </DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV>

Troodon

03-01-2005, 10:42 PM

If Crafting worked Like adventuring ...... you'd spend an hour working on trying to get a pristine (aka chest drop), but upon brushing of the metal shavings, blotting the paper, varnishing the wood, most of the time it would turn out to be actually crude.... when the Alchemyst on the bench alongside says "Oh no! Its going to bl.." everyone around him would have to dive for cover.... you'd see components you could used continually priced out of reach.... you'd get used to be snarled at "What! You think my time is worthless!" when you'd tried to barter for some overpriced component with the Trade instance vendor. Then he'd just snear at you and tell you to join some mythical optimal pristine crafting group when you point out that your time has value too and it takes you just as long to earn a few coppers, if not longer.... you'd see components you could use snapped up and resold for higher prices, by those with enough money to make money.... you'd spend an hour finding a team to build an item only to have some critical member decide that they needed to leave.... you'd get used to checking the floor sweepings for bits of cruft you might be able to accrete into to something of value.... the forge wouldnt just demand sacrifices, it would hunt them down.

Screamin' 1

03-01-2005, 11:52 PM

<blockquote><hr>ElMeepo wrote:<DIV>Yes, and if Crafting were similar to Adventuring you would have the following:</DIV><DIV>1. Not be able to make anything worth while/sellable unless you grouped with at least 3 or 4 other crafters (2 of which had to be tank and healer equivelant).</DIV><DIV>2. Everytime you failed an attempt to make an item you received crafting xp debt (same with your crafting group members)</DIV><DIV>3. You couldn't use certain crafting tables unless you did some time consuming access quest to use the table/forge</DIV><DIV>4. Everytime you would make something successful all of your fellow crafters you're grouped with would have to "roll" on that completed item</DIV><DIV>5. There's endless comparisons i could put here but i'll leave it at that.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>You chose how to play the game, if you don't like it make an adventuring class if you think they have it so good. If that doesn't appeal to you go find something else to play.</DIV><hr></blockquote>Well, that is such a nice attitude. And great logic. You chose how to play, so accept whatever they give you. That is like saying, "You chose to work at your current workplace, accept the pay cut and sexual harassment".The OP pays to play this game, and many crafters are unhappy about the way crafting has been changed. Unless you are a crafter, you have no idea. Telling us to just acceptit makes no sense at all, especially since there have been changes since we made the decision to play the game and craft.The OP is not complaining about adventurer 'bonuses' but about crafter penalties that are simply unfair. It seems to me that his post was a slam on adventurers, but it is fairly clear to me that the comparison was not intended to look unfavorably in adventurers, but to make a point about why crafters are unhappy.I have both types of classes,and I am crafting less and less, and adverturing more and more. It really has nothing to do with the latest changes for me, it has more to do w/ the fact that existing problems are being ignored, while crafting is made less profitable and less fun.While you make a few valid points, the fact still remains that adventuring pays whether or notplayers will buy your drops or not. I can kill 100 mobs much faster than I can craft 100 finished items. It is a lot more fun to kill the mobs. I will make decent money off those mobs, especially ifI am doing quests or writs for them. I can solo adventure, and go to pretty much everywhere I want, and enjoy the game and make money doing it without ever needing another player to buy the loot orhelp me out or sell me anything. That reminds me, add to the OP's comments:<i>Adventurers doing city writs would only get partial experience, and would not get credit for a mobkill if they kill it too efficiently.</i>In addition, I would welcome the opportunity to group with other crafters on some type of craftinggrouped "quest". It would actually be a welcome improvement, not a burden as you seem to implygrouping is for adventuring.OTOH, the new attuning is overkill. I do not think attuning dropped items is the right thing to do.The idea was (I am guessing here) that since crafters can no longer make money selling to NPCs(because SOE can think of no other way to stop the 'botters making a fortune) then they need more incentive for players to buy player crafted items. Instead of giving crafters more and better items to sell, they penalize adventurers. I don't think that is fair. At least make the buy back prices of attuned player items better.

Blindrage

03-02-2005, 12:33 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Screamin' 103 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ElMeepo wrote:<BR> <DIV>Yes, and if Crafting were similar to Adventuring you would have the following:</DIV> <DIV>1. Not be able to make anything worth while/sellable unless you grouped with at least 3 or 4 other crafters (2 of which had to be tank and healer equivelant).</DIV> <DIV>2. Everytime you failed an attempt to make an item you received crafting xp debt (same with your crafting group members)</DIV> <DIV>3. You couldn't use certain crafting tables unless you did some time consuming access quest to use the table/forge</DIV> <DIV>4. Everytime you would make something successful all of your fellow crafters you're grouped with would have to "roll" on that completed item</DIV> <DIV>5. There's endless comparisons i could put here but i'll leave it at that.</DIV> <DIV>You chose how to play the game, if you don't like it make an adventuring class if you think they have it so good. If that doesn't appeal to you go find something else to play.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>Well, that is such a nice attitude. And great logic. You chose how to play, so accept <BR>whatever they give you. That is like saying, "You chose to work at your current workplace, accept <BR>the pay cut and sexual harassment".<BR><BR>The OP pays to play this game, and many crafters are unhappy about the way crafting <BR>has been changed. Unless you are a crafter, you have no idea. Telling us to just accept<BR>it makes no sense at all, especially since there have been changes since we made the <BR>decision to play the game and craft.<BR><BR>The OP is not complaining about adventurer 'bonuses' but about crafter penalties that are <BR>simply unfair. It seems to me that his post was a slam on adventurers, but it is fairly <BR>clear to me that the comparison was not intended to look unfavorably in adventurers, but <BR>to make a point about why crafters are unhappy.<BR><BR>I have both types of classes,and I am crafting less and less, and adverturing more and more. <BR>It really has nothing to do with the latest changes for me, it has more to do w/ the fact <BR>that existing problems are being ignored, while crafting is made less profitable and less fun.<BR><BR>While you make a few valid points, the fact still remains that adventuring pays whether or not<BR>players will buy your drops or not. <FONT color=#ffff00>I can kill 100 mobs much faster than I can craft 100 finished <BR>items.</FONT> It is a lot more fun to kill the mobs. <FONT color=#ff0000>I will make decent money off those mobs</FONT>, especially if<BR>I am doing quests or writs for them.<FONT color=#ff0099> I can solo adventure, and go to pretty much everywhere I want, <BR>and enjoy the game and make money doing it without ever needing another player to buy the loot or<BR>help me out or sell me anything.</FONT><FONT color=#ffffff> </FONT><BR><BR>That reminds me, add to the OP's comments:<BR><BR><FONT color=#ff6633><I>Adventurers doing city writs would only get partial experience, and would not get credit for a mob<BR>kill if they kill it too efficiently.</I><BR></FONT><BR><FONT color=#993399>In addition, I would welcome the opportunity to group with other crafters on some type of crafting<BR>grouped "quest". It would actually be a welcome improvement, not a burden as you seem to imply<BR>grouping is for adventuring.<BR></FONT><BR>OTOH, the new attuning is overkill. I do not think attuning dropped items is the right thing to do.<BR>The idea was (I am guessing here) that since crafters can no longer make money selling to NPCs<BR>(because SOE can think of no other way to stop the 'botters making a fortune) then they need more incentive for players to buy player crafted items. <FONT color=#0099ff>Instead of giving crafters more and better items to sell, they penalize adventurers. I don't think that is fair. At least make the buy back prices of attuned player items better.</FONT><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I don't see that as true. If you were soloing even mobs at level 15 w/o good food and drink which costs an arm and a leg you would have a ton of downtime. If you were crafting something at level 15 there may be multi combines and buying resources which cost an arm and a leg depending on the item, if you don't want to go harvest them on your own. I see that is being pretty balanced.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Maybe you will, a lot of mobs don't drop anything, and when you do get something you get 50c-2s at the very most at lvl 15. Now if you take a look at your 100 finished products you can off those to a player(or try to) for a decent amount, of sell back to the vendor at a reduced rate. Lets say the adventurer was getting a 50/50 drop rate on items from killing mobs. After 100 mobs he would have 50items from npc's. As a crafter you would have 100, some pristine, some crude and so on. He sells to merchant and makes 25s off the items at 50c each(although most of the items are not stackable so he would have to make several trips to own which would slow him down a lot). Here is where I get stuck, I do not know the sellbacks to merchant for level 15 crafted items. However, I do not believe that it is much less that what the adventurer has made.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff00cc>Crafters are not dependant on anyone anymore since the interdependancy has been lifted.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff6633>True, killing a level 10 mob at level 15 will not give as much exp as one higher would, the same factor applies to crafting, lower recipe, easier combine, less xp.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#993399>Who would get the item from the 'quest'? everyone? that would flood the market. If one person recieved the item I could see this as being a great addition for crafters. Although if you are getting equal rewards compared to adventurer quest (non-heritage) then you would be wasting your time, because most of the adventurer quests suck until 30+</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#0099ff>I agree, I purchased a club off the market for my guardian, it was decent at level 24 so I forked out a gold for it, after the attune patch I am offered 4 silver by a merchant. Deflation of 96% if my math is correct.(which it probably isn't)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#0099ff></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>Sorry to pick apart your post, you said a lot of things that I felt were one sided.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>Edit - Messed up the order and colors, fixed now.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </P> <P><BR></P> <p>Message Edited by Blindrage on <span class=date_text>03-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:37 AM</span>

Lig

03-02-2005, 12:49 AM

<FONT color=#0033ff></FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blindrage wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Screamin' 103 wrote:<BR><BR><BR>While you make a few valid points, the fact still remains that adventuring pays whether or not<BR>players will buy your drops or not. <FONT color=#ffff00>I can kill 100 mobs much faster than I can craft 100 finished <BR>items.</FONT> It is a lot more fun to kill the mobs. <FONT color=#ff0000>I will make decent money off those mobs</FONT>, especially if<BR>I am doing quests or writs for them.<FONT color=#ff0099> I can solo adventure, and go to pretty much everywhere I want, <BR>and enjoy the game and make money doing it without ever needing another player to buy the loot or<BR>help me out or sell me anything.</FONT><FONT color=#ffffff> </FONT><BR><BR>That reminds me, add to the OP's comments:<BR><BR><FONT color=#ff6633><I>Adventurers doing city writs would only get partial experience, and would not get credit for a mob<BR>kill if they kill it too efficiently.</I><BR></FONT><BR><FONT color=#993399>In addition, I would welcome the opportunity to group with other crafters on some type of crafting<BR>grouped "quest". It would actually be a welcome improvement, not a burden as you seem to imply<BR>grouping is for adventuring.<BR></FONT><BR>OTOH, the new attuning is overkill. I do not think attuning dropped items is the right thing to do.<BR>The idea was (I am guessing here) that since crafters can no longer make money selling to NPCs<BR>(because SOE can think of no other way to stop the 'botters making a fortune) then they need more incentive for players to buy player crafted items. <FONT color=#0099ff>Instead of giving crafters more and better items to sell, they penalize adventurers. I don't think that is fair. At least make the buy back prices of attuned player items better.</FONT><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I don't see that as true. If you were soloing even mobs at level 15 w/o good food and drink which costs an arm and a leg you would have a ton of downtime. If you were crafting something at level 15 there may be multi combines and buying resources which cost an arm and a leg depending on the item, if you don't want to go harvest them on your own. I see that is being pretty balanced.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Maybe you will, a lot of mobs don't drop anything, and when you do get something you get 50c-2s at the very most at lvl 15. Now if you take a look at your 100 finished products you can off those to a player(or try to) for a decent amount, of sell back to the vendor at a reduced rate. Lets say the adventurer was getting a 50/50 drop rate on items from killing mobs. After 100 mobs he would have 50items from npc's. As a crafter you would have 100, some pristine, some crude and so on. He sells to merchant and makes 25s off the items at 50c each(although most of the items are not stackable so he would have to make several trips to own which would slow him down a lot). Here is where I get stuck, I do not know the sellbacks to merchant for level 15 crafted items. However, I do not believe that it is much less that what the adventurer has made.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff00cc>Crafters are not dependant on anyone anymore since the interdependancy has been lifted.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff6633>True, killing a level 10 mob at level 15 will not give as much exp as one higher would, the same factor applies to crafting, lower recipe, easier combine, less xp.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#993399>Who would get the item from the 'quest'? everyone? that would flood the market. If one person recieved the item I could see this as being a great addition for crafters. Although if you are getting equal rewards compared to adventurer quest (non-heritage) then you would be wasting your time, because most of the adventurer quests suck until 30+</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#0099ff>I agree, I purchased a club off the market for my guardian, it was decent at level 24 so I forked out a gold for it, after the attune patch I am offered 4 silver by a merchant. Deflation of 96% if my math is correct.(which it probably isn't)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#0099ff></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>Sorry to pick apart your post, you said a lot of things that I felt were one sided.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>Edit - Messed up the order and colors, fixed now.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </P> <P><BR></P> <P>Message Edited by Blindrage on <SPAN class=date_text>03-01-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:37 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>YOu certainly can kill 100 mobs faster than making 100 products... and I don't care what lvl you are. You can also certainly make enough off those mobs to afford the food and drink you are talking about once you get past lvl 30 or so.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>The sellback rate is a TON less than the adventurer will make. as a matter of fact you lose money on most sell backs to merchant for crafted items. That is what SOE wanted to do adn that is what they did. You only make money off Workshop tasks crafting and when I say money I mean 12sp ... THAT"S RIGHT COUNT EM BABY 12 SP .... for a T5 task... woohoo I'm rich. As an adventurer (and I'm a lvl 35 Inq 5% away from 36 so I know what I'm talking about here) I can make 10 - 20 gold an hour easy if I hunt in the right spots... easy people... easy. If I get lucky I can make much much more.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff33ff>That's not what he's saying... the point is that you can make money just from adventuring... we need you to buy the goods... we can't make money selling our product that we worked so hard to make. Now I am actually in favor of this so don't get me wrong... I'm just clarifying. The adventurer is the consumer and the crafter is the manufacturer... that's fine... just allow adventurers to make enough money to purchase our goods and make our goods something that adventurers want to buy.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>Here I don't really follow the posters logic. It's true that city writs pay less in terms status for TSers but there is also a lot less risk involved with it. I might be willing to accept that the payout should be higher but I can also understand why it is not.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc00ff>I really don't see this happening although I would be psyched to see some sort of fair implementation of it. I too think it would only add to the game.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc00ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0066ff>Yes make buy back better but either keep the attune change or make items decay. They need to leave the world at some point period. I don't care what anyone says or thinks... in the end items can not last forever and keep circulating in the economy. It will kill the economy for crafters. Everything has to be consumable just at different rates.</FONT></DIV>

Melamp

03-02-2005, 01:06 AM

<blockquote><hr>zDocWho wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE>Brash wrote - substitute Crafting for Adventuring and this all applies equally to crafters. Crafters also have to pay for the so called "overpriced" food drink, we have the same issues with selling but unlike adventurers we don't get to explore the world, work as a team and get the sense of accomplishment from winning a close battle!</BLOCKQUOTE><BR><DIV>For everything that </DIV><DIV> </DIV><hr></blockquote>well You did get to work as a team then you all complained about now you can solo all your warez.No need for a sage to grp with a woodworks and alchemist..the game is now solo for you <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Blindrage

03-02-2005, 02:42 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ligur1 wrote:<BR><FONT color=#0033ff></FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blindrage wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Screamin' 103 wrote:<BR><BR><BR>While you make a few valid points, the fact still remains that adventuring pays whether or not<BR>players will buy your drops or not. <FONT color=#ffff00>I can kill 100 mobs much faster than I can craft 100 finished <BR>items.</FONT> It is a lot more fun to kill the mobs. <FONT color=#ff0000>I will make decent money off those mobs</FONT>, especially if<BR>I am doing quests or writs for them.<FONT color=#ff0099> I can solo adventure, and go to pretty much everywhere I want, <BR>and enjoy the game and make money doing it without ever needing another player to buy the loot or<BR>help me out or sell me anything.</FONT><FONT color=#ffffff> </FONT><BR><BR>That reminds me, add to the OP's comments:<BR><BR><FONT color=#ff6633><I>Adventurers doing city writs would only get partial experience, and would not get credit for a mob<BR>kill if they kill it too efficiently.</I><BR></FONT><BR><FONT color=#993399>In addition, I would welcome the opportunity to group with other crafters on some type of crafting<BR>grouped "quest". It would actually be a welcome improvement, not a burden as you seem to imply<BR>grouping is for adventuring.<BR></FONT><BR>OTOH, the new attuning is overkill. I do not think attuning dropped items is the right thing to do.<BR>The idea was (I am guessing here) that since crafters can no longer make money selling to NPCs<BR>(because SOE can think of no other way to stop the 'botters making a fortune) then they need more incentive for players to buy player crafted items. <FONT color=#0099ff>Instead of giving crafters more and better items to sell, they penalize adventurers. I don't think that is fair. At least make the buy back prices of attuned player items better.</FONT><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I don't see that as true. If you were soloing even mobs at level 15 w/o good food and drink which costs an arm and a leg you would have a ton of downtime. If you were crafting something at level 15 there may be multi combines and buying resources which cost an arm and a leg depending on the item, if you don't want to go harvest them on your own. I see that is being pretty balanced.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Maybe you will, a lot of mobs don't drop anything, and when you do get something you get 50c-2s at the very most at lvl 15. Now if you take a look at your 100 finished products you can off those to a player(or try to) for a decent amount, of sell back to the vendor at a reduced rate. Lets say the adventurer was getting a 50/50 drop rate on items from killing mobs. After 100 mobs he would have 50items from npc's. As a crafter you would have 100, some pristine, some crude and so on. He sells to merchant and makes 25s off the items at 50c each(although most of the items are not stackable so he would have to make several trips to own which would slow him down a lot). Here is where I get stuck, I do not know the sellbacks to merchant for level 15 crafted items. However, I do not believe that it is much less that what the adventurer has made.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff00cc>Crafters are not dependant on anyone anymore since the interdependancy has been lifted.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff6633>True, killing a level 10 mob at level 15 will not give as much exp as one higher would, the same factor applies to crafting, lower recipe, easier combine, less xp.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#993399>Who would get the item from the 'quest'? everyone? that would flood the market. If one person recieved the item I could see this as being a great addition for crafters. Although if you are getting equal rewards compared to adventurer quest (non-heritage) then you would be wasting your time, because most of the adventurer quests suck until 30+</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#0099ff>I agree, I purchased a club off the market for my guardian, it was decent at level 24 so I forked out a gold for it, after the attune patch I am offered 4 silver by a merchant. Deflation of 96% if my math is correct.(which it probably isn't)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#0099ff></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>Sorry to pick apart your post, you said a lot of things that I felt were one sided.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>Edit - Messed up the order and colors, fixed now.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </P> <P><BR></P> <P>Message Edited by Blindrage on <SPAN class=date_text>03-01-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:37 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>YOu certainly can kill 100 mobs faster than making 100 products... and I don't care what lvl you are. You can also certainly make enough off those mobs to afford the food and drink you are talking about once you get past lvl 30 or so.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>The sellback rate is a TON less than the adventurer will make. as a matter of fact you lose money on most sell backs to merchant for crafted items. That is what SOE wanted to do adn that is what they did. You only make money off Workshop tasks crafting and when I say money I mean 12sp ... THAT"S RIGHT COUNT EM BABY 12 SP .... for a T5 task... woohoo I'm rich. As an adventurer (and I'm a lvl 35 Inq 5% away from 36 so I know what I'm talking about here)</FONT><FONT color=#666633> I can make 10 - 20 gold an hour easy if I hunt in the right spots... easy people... easy. If I get lucky I can make much much more.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff33ff>That's not what he's saying... the point is that you can make money just from adventuring... we need you to buy the goods... we can't make money selling our product that we worked so hard to make. Now I am actually in favor of this so don't get me wrong... I'm just clarifying. The adventurer is the consumer and the crafter is the manufacturer... that's fine... just allow adventurers to make enough money to purchase our goods and make our goods something that adventurers want to buy.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>Here I don't really follow the posters logic. It's true that city writs pay less in terms status for TSers but there is also a lot less risk involved with it. I might be willing to accept that the payout should be higher but I can also understand why it is not.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc00ff>I really don't see this happening although I would be psyched to see some sort of fair implementation of it. I too think it would only add to the game.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc00ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0066ff>Yes make buy back better but either keep the attune change or make items decay. They need to leave the world at some point period. I don't care what anyone says or thinks... in the end items can not last forever and keep circulating in the economy. It will kill the economy for crafters. Everything has to be consumable just at different rates.</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#336633>So you must rake in 1.4 plat per week(at 2 hrs per day at your 10g an hr), at the least..i'd sure like to know where you are hunting <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> because at lvl 26 you can make maybe 10g per week if you get lucky and play 2-4hrs a night.</FONT></DIV>

Melamp

03-02-2005, 02:58 AM

I also would like to know where your making so much money at.I drool when i see a giant beard drop in perma frost because it sells for about 9gbut it doesn't drop but maybe every 30 or so giants and even then you have a 1 in 6 chance of getting it.if I made 1.4p for 14 hours of work i'd have easily 3-4 plat in 3 days...i'm lvl 50 so yeah, I know where to hunt..i have access to everywhere.so if you're getting that much gold in 2 hours at 36 I'd be more than happy to go to EL/ZEK or whereever you are and rack up tons of money

Jeridor

03-02-2005, 03:27 AM

Original poster: Good post. Good attempt to illustrate the imbalances in a different way. Non-crafters posting in this thread: The original poster wasn't trying to make your adventuring sound effortless. But it is an absolute fact that one can make money much more quickly adventuring than crafting. Even if this weren't common knowledge, just the fact you have two different audiences is all the proof you need. Lots of drops sell well to a vendor. You can then make bonus money selling items to players. For crafters it's selling to players if you want a profit. This goes back to a post I wrote recently called, "The hands are not shaking."One side of the dev team says, "Crafters, sell to players!"The other side says, "Adventurers, check out all this cool gear you can get in drops or quests! And now we're adding more of it!"There is a conflict of interests within the dev team here. We have developers running two different directions on the same issue. Is this the adventurer's fault? Of course not. Do we need to somehow nerf adventurers to make a solution that works for crafters? I don't think so. But the dev team does need to see the point: They are biting their own tail.

AlA

03-02-2005, 04:13 AM

<P>You forgot a few other things ...</P> <P>1. You would get your head handed to you by solo grey mobs for a long period of time interspersed with fantasticly lucky drops for long periods of time. </P> <P>2. Anything blue or below would regularly wipe the floor with your remains and vice versa.</P> <P>3. There would be some big fast changes to adventuring. Lots of changes might be unwelcome, but others would be the bomb (Wonderful changes.).</P> <P>4. It would be more uncertain, but also more exciting. You would never know when you attack that green beetle, if you will die or get a master drop!</P> <P>5. Adventuring issues would get a lot of attention, and I could probably res folks who were not in the group and having such a blast doing it, I would probably want to do little else. Gone would be the days of ignoring players in need because the area was simply too dangerous to /disband and get an invite so as to res another. :smileyhappy: It is quite distressing to be unable to do anything but trample over their dead corpses. :smileysad:</P> <P>Now to your post ...</P> <P>Not all things lose money when you make them. I think SOE is doing their best, but I suspect that the reason things haven't gone exactly the way many would wish is because it's a bit more complicated than I know.</P> <P>Some of the goals they seem to want appear to be at odds with eachother.</P> <P>Example: They had the goal of making tradeskills more dependant on player skill. They also had the goal of making it more difficult to get pristine items. The first goal would require giving the player more control over the outcome of the process, the second goal involves giving the player less control over the outcome. </P> <P>I'm not bashing SOE here. Its entirely possible that I simply misunderstand. At any rate, even if there are things I think that are mistakes, I can't make a final judgement on that because I don't know all the facts. The only ones who know all the facts are the folks at SOE, and the best I can do, is trust them. if I get all angry at them, it don't do me no good, and it doesn't do them any good.</P> <P> <HR> zDocWho wrote:<BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>This will probably get me about a zillion 1 stars, but what the heck I am a frustrated crafter.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If Adventuring worked like Crafting:</DIV> <DIV> - Any loot dropped by mobs would sell to NPC vendors fro zero and the only way of making money would be to sell it to other players.</DIV> <DIV> - All quests would LOSE money. The player would have to pay to do quests - the higher the player level the more they would have to pay.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only input required by adventurers is TIME and since clearly SOE values time as zero, adventurers would not be able to sell their end product (drops) for anything to NPC vendors. Like crafters they would have to sell to other players to make money.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Crafter writs/tasks currently lose money in many cases. This is even the case if one harvests ones own raws (!) :smileysad:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by zDocWho on <SPAN class=date_text>03-01-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:54 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

TorakAig

03-02-2005, 05:26 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zDocWho wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>I adventure a fair amount. The word I used is <STRONG>REQUIREMENT</STRONG> - you do not HAVE to have the latest equipment, nor do you HAVE to have the best food/drink. These simply make your life easier.</DIV> <DIV><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I'd like to see you try to adventure at tier 3+ while still in your free gear that you got on refuge island, especially as a tank. Can you say "dead in seconds"?</DIV>

Melamp

03-02-2005, 05:38 AM

selling crafted items to the vendor does make profit..it's the amount of profit that you're concerned about."you have to make a Y items to make the profit that an adventurer can make killing X amount of mobs"I agree...but how much risk was involved in making those items? How many times did you have to repair your armor...how many friends help did you need...how well do you have to know your class to make those itemsthese are all questions that need to be asked to when determining profit for selling to vendor.

AlA

03-02-2005, 06:24 AM

<P>Just for giggles, there is the other side of the coin....</P> <P>1. Less risk, but tradeskilling is mind-numbing and really isn't much fun compared to adventuring. You do risk making an item and then nobody wanting it. If you do orders, you risk the customer backing out, leaving you stuck or dropping off the face of the world for an entire week after you finished spending 4 hours filling a huge order. Why the other day, I had this huge order, so I packed it all up and I was grieviously over-loaded and went out to meet the buyer at the bank and on the way, I stepped on a wad of sap and I was so overloaded, I could not pull free! I had to cast Call of the overlard to get free, and just as it went off, I realized ... "Oh noooo!!" I've betrayed and am in Qeynos but I had forgotten to relinquish my apartment, and so I ended up in Freeport. The guards threw me into the gutter and it was a LONG walk back and half way back I got aggrod and I could not stroll fast enough to escape. So, now I've got a shard to recover and I'm trying to figure out a way back. I've been hiding under the docks so long, I started sprouting gills!</P> <P>2. I spend less on armor repair than I do on fuel. Oh, and I know of a barbarian alchemist, whose heavy armor has turned PINK and he's so embarrassed, even doomsqual is too embarrassed to get near enough to him to kill him! Oh, and now I gotta repair the armor.</P> <P>3. I'm too busy wiping goo off my face and eyes to make friends. :smileysurprised:</P> <P><BR>4. Well, I wish I had known that alchemists can't make their own spells. I should have known that about my class.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Melampus wrote:<BR>selling crafted items to the vendor does make profit..it's the amount of profit that you're concerned about.<BR><BR>"you have to make a Y items to make the profit that an adventurer can make killing X amount of mobs"<BR><BR>I agree...but how much risk was involved in making those items? How many times did you have to repair your armor...how many friends help did you need...how well do you have to know your class to make those items<BR><BR>these are all questions that need to be asked to when determining profit for selling to vendor.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

Melamp

03-02-2005, 06:33 AM

well adventuring in mind numbing too...you can stay lfg for hours...or when you're in a grp and your tank has to leave you can stay lfg for more hours..or the grp totally disbands...someone has to gate back because they need to give their friend something...vs.log on..buy fuel...craft for hourswhat did you make that that you were so over burdened? I see alot of supply demand but when 1 customer demands so much that you're over burden to carry it to him it makes that arguement go out the window

zDocW

03-02-2005, 07:45 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TorakAigia wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zDocWho wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>I adventure a fair amount. The word I used is <STRONG>REQUIREMENT</STRONG> - you do not HAVE to have the latest equipment, nor do you HAVE to have the best food/drink. These simply make your life easier.</DIV> <DIV><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I'd like to see you try to adventure at tier 3+ while still in your free gear that you got on refuge island, especially as a tank. Can you say "dead in seconds"?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Well - if you didn't want to use any of the drops or quest items u would have received by tier 3+ then I suppose u might struggle a bit :smileywink:

Darqz

03-02-2005, 08:12 AM

<DIV>I find this thread slightly funny and intimdating. It seems that most of the time anyone points out why crafters really don't have it bad or poke holes in why adventuring isn't the money maker they get one starred or bashed for not being a crafter. Notice I said most, there are some posts that didn't get one starred or such that do support this thread. With this being said let me start off by introducing myself. I'm an old EQ1 player that jumped at the chance of crafting when the game started. Here was another way to spend time online and do something and interact with the EQ community on the days that I could not find groups / did not want to group. I think I was a level 12 crafter before I ever left the island of refuge. I only really even left because I ran out of money and my skills could not be purchased anymore (maybe I was 10, I forget at this point in time). As soon as I hit freeport I instantly started my citizenship quest and then joined a tradeskill guild. My goal, to be the first weaponsmith on the server to hit 50 and provide my guild with much needed weapons. Around level 15 I started running into snag. [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] I needed tempers. So I made friends with an alchemist, a wood worker, a tailor and was off making my weapons. Within the first few weeks I had made my first items and sold them back to the vendor. I was making money and on my way to becoming to my goal. Alot has changed since then. Now I have an alchemist/assassin, a weaponsmith/SK, a provisioner/Wiz under my belt. I realized after too long that I would rather play as an adventure instead of make items. I've leveled my toons and done my access quests. So I know what I'm talking about between the two types of gameplay found in this game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With this being said, when the game first started Adventures had to support start off a tradeskiller. Since then it has changed. Yes I can go out and make gold at night adventuring or as a tradeskiller. How? I don't overprice. I can still make money as an alchemists selling tempers/worts. I can definitely make over a hundred tempers/refined bars in the time it would take me to solo a hundred mobs. The stuff that I know won't sell to the players I get my money back from the vendors and use it to buy more fuel. Yes I break even, not fun to to do after an hour or so of crafting but part of the penalty I take.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So whats the difference I see?</DIV> <DIV>Pros:</DIV> <DIV>Adventuring:</DIV> <DIV>- You have the ability to make a few gold in 3-4 hours of play if you get lucky on your drops in a group. </DIV> <DIV>- Soloing yields more risk of dying, but you are gaurenteed faster money</DIV> <DIV>- You can do quests to get better armor/weapons/money rewards</DIV> <DIV>- Exploring new places gives you xp</DIV> <DIV>- Loot drops can yield nice weapons to sell</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Crafting:</DIV> <DIV>- You can make a ton of money if your good at your skill and you are high enough </DIV> <DIV>- You don't have to worry about dying (unless your at the forge and get up to do a bio break and think you'll be ok...OUCH)</DIV> <DIV>- Your armor/weapons don't mean anything to you, you don't have to upgrade EVER. You can stay in your newbie isle socks if you want and it won't effect your crafting</DIV> <DIV>- You don't have to pay 50s-6plat on skills to upgrade them and make them more powerful.</DIV> <DIV>- You never have to LFG</DIV> <DIV>- If your lazy and don't want to harvest for your items you can usually find it on the broker</DIV> <DIV>- You get bonus xp for crafting items you have never crafted before</DIV> <DIV>- Since interdepenancy is gone you can now make everything yourself, if you wish to invest the time</DIV> <DIV>- Spells/abilities/etc will make you good money to support yourself since players always want to upgrade thier abilities</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cons:</DIV> <DIV>Adventuring: </DIV> <DIV>- You must keep up with your armor/skills if you wish to have a chance in the game. </DIV> <DIV>- Soloing... its almost a joke in this game since I've had greys almost stomp me down and there are not alot of solo mobs around regardless of what SOE says</DIV> <DIV>- Dying at higher levels can cost you well over a few gold to repair your armor</DIV> <DIV>- Some nights of fighting will yield next to nothing if your not lucky on drops</DIV> <DIV>- You loose that 5silver for food and 5 silver for drink if you die, plus have debt, plus have financial debt due to armor repair</DIV> <DIV>- Not upgrading your skills can make you a group liablity at higher levels. A tank that doesn't have his taunts at least app4 will most likely get the mage/scout/cleric killed if he can not do his/her job right. Same with any other class.</DIV> <DIV>- Not using Tiered food slows down the whole group, which slows down any kind of xp/loot drops</DIV> <DIV>- Not being able to sell your items may leave you broke unless you wish to take the silver from the vendor</DIV> <DIV>- Adventuring abilities broken, some of your higher level abilites don't work, or share the same timer as another skill and you can't figure out why. Sometimes they do work but your lower skills do much more damage/heals/make prettier lights/etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Crafting:</DIV> <DIV>- Getting to a high enough level to make money at your craft can take a while and stink</DIV> <DIV>- As a provisioner you can't make multiple items. While I don't agree upon this some people will add time = money into thier spectrum driving prices higher</DIV> <DIV>- A good portion of higher level crafting skills don't work as well as thier lower counterparts</DIV> <DIV>- Selling your wares to players has become increasingly difficult. You basically need requests from friends to get rid of them some weeks (yes weeks, not days but weeks). At that point in time it is usually at cost so you just get xp for making the items and leveling yourself. Good news is its free xp, bad news is your still broke, Don't believe me. Make a weapon and see how long it takes to sell it at higher levels. Same with furniture. I have friends give me stuff just because they would rather give it away instead of sell it back for the few silver they would gain. </DIV> <DIV>- Since there is really no chance at death (unless you walk away and.....oops covered that) it gets tedious and boring quick. You notice the hour pass by, unlike adventuring where an hour passes by much quicker.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One thing I should add that my provisioner is the most popular seller. Why? Because I don't overprice my stuff. I litterally do it just above cost. Yeah that doesn't sound like alot for the hour I put in and I don't get to make alot of food but if I make stacks of 20 after 2 hours I can clean up and sell my entire inventory. I kind of understand why Provisioners can't make multiples (even though it would be nice). Simple reason is supersaturation. If i can make a stack of 20 food that lasts me an hour each thats 20 hours an adventure doesn't have to buy food at almost the same cost as it would cost them to do it at an individual rate. I would never be able to make money because the 20 stacks of 20 I have along with the other 80 provisioners that just popped up won't move as fast. Kind of the same reason I can't make stacks of swords. Just my 2cp.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hope you can take where I'm not bashing anyones style of playing just pointing out that this is my style of playing and how I've made it in this game. I am not 100% successful in either area, but I wouldn't count myself as a failure either.</DIV>

AlA

03-02-2005, 08:28 AM

Nothing. I was just trying to add to humor into the thread.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> </P> <P>Melampus wrote:<BR></P> <P>What did you make that that you were so over burdened? I see alot of supply demand but when 1 customer demands so much that you're over burden to carry it to him it makes that arguement go out the window.<BR></P> <P> <HR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

RoseWhi

03-02-2005, 09:09 AM

<DIV>If adventuring were like crafting, you would be limited to soloing in a single zone and no other, never seeing any change of scenery, repeatedly whacking on the same mobs over and over and over and over and over... then running to a merchant to buy more fuel because your sword has run out... then back whacking on the same mobs over and over and over and over....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If adventuring were like crafting, every time the mob whacked you, the value of the loot it drops is decreased. You can try to dodge, but probably you won't be able to dodge fast enough, even though the mob is trivial to you. You think no one wants the drops now? Wait until you've been wacked repeatedly by double-up arrow gray mob that conned "far beneath your skills."</DIV><p>Message Edited by RoseWhite on <span class=date_text>03-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:10 PM</span>

Cecil_Stri

03-02-2005, 09:40 AM

<DIV>No game out there allows you to sell to npc for a profit when you craft.... not eq1.. no anarchy online... not ultima online.. not World of warcraft...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why should everquest 2 all of the sudden all this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I agree crafting needs tweaked but selling to npcs is not an option imo because its WAY too easy.. and very farmable</DIV>

Mot

03-02-2005, 09:41 AM

<DIV>The poster has a good point. I already cancelled this crap, but at level 50 alchemist, there was no way to actually profit on anything at a reasonable rate. This is level 50 too, max crafting for my profession.. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As I've said before, in a comparison to the usefulness of an adventurer in the same situation, it would be an assassin without weapons... he could still fight but there's no purpose.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just re-read what I typed - reasonable rate means reasonable in comparison to level 50 adventuring..except crafting should be more profittable, as your character gains no advancements in any other aspects than item creation.</DIV>

Darqz

03-02-2005, 08:47 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Motri wrote:<BR> <DIV>The poster has a good point. I already cancelled this crap, but at level 50 alchemist, there was no way to actually profit on anything at a reasonable rate. This is level 50 too, max crafting for my profession.. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As I've said before, in a comparison to the usefulness of an adventurer in the same situation, it would be an assassin without weapons... he could still fight but there's no purpose.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just re-read what I typed - reasonable rate means reasonable in comparison to level 50 adventuring..except crafting should be more profittable, as your character gains no advancements in any other aspects than item creation.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Motri,</DIV> <DIV> I'm sorry but I must disagree with you. As a fellow tradeskiller there is an actual way to make profit on items at a reasonable rate. Will you be come instantly rich, chances are no. However I can say that I can make anywhere between 3-25 gold (only have done 25 once) after a few hours of crafting. It is nothing like an assassin without weapons. The assassin would take over an hour to kill a mob that is grey to him without weapons and would yield no loot. The damage he would do to a normal mob would be like a 2 year old hitting a stone wall.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Please correct me if I've misunderstood you. I do not mean this as a personal attack against you but I do disagree with what you say. Crafting should never be more profitable to adventuring. The risk vs rewards is just not there. An adventure at level 50 has nothing to gain the same way that a crafter at level 50 has nothing to gain via xp. The only difference is that it costs the adventure to go out and adventure oppose to the crafter that can stay in the tradeskill instance. If the adventure goes out he risks getting XP debt, having his weapons/ armor damage, and any food/drink they may consume. The average adventure does not make as much money as many people would like to think since if they solo thier rate of killing is slower than that of a groups. If they are in a group they have to split so he may only have a one in six chance of getting profitable loot. Loot drops are relatively rarer in the higher level game. Take on the other hand the tradeskiller that grinds for the same amount of time the adventure does. He has product to show at the end of his time. Granted his risk is that he may not be able to sell all of his wares on his vendor mode. He can always turn around and sell it back at the same reduced price an adventure would get for thier uber loot (IE heritage quests only getting a few silver or a gold piece VS the pristine rare that you made giving you only a few silver or gold more than what it took to make). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Before crafters think this is a downgrade to thier time and efforts or gameplay, it isn't. When EQ2 was released I was excited because I looked at it as a great game. I could adventure with my friends and when they weren't on or I had real life issues (such as studying, work, etc) I could jump on a tradeskill and play. The tradeskilling held a chance for me to continue my game, make some money, and not devote 100% of my attention that I would have to if I played because I wouldn't risk being killed. Yes EQ2 promised that you could play this game and never have to pick up a sword and still have it be enjoyable. They never promised you would be able to make tons of money doing adventuring or doing crafting. Yes everyone's time is valuable and should be respected and some what rewarded regardless of if they are adventuring or crafting. However as a crafter and adventure I find crafting to be less risky than adventuring. Yes it does require me to fork out the money for my wares but I can always break even or come out with a little coin in my pocket after I finish with my time. I never have to worry about dying or having an idiot in my group to get me killed. Adventuring does give you more excitement but you do fork out money for your fuel costs (food/drink) and run a risk of having a zero profit night or a negative profit night (IE you went out and got an few drops that sells for 30 silver each) but you got wiped out 5 times. Considering that you paid 2 gold for the food/drink you were using and went through 7 of those that night (5 due to dying 2 due to 2 hours of usage) and your armor costs another 3 gold in repairs plus the debt you may have in experience the Risk is much higher. I know many will disagree with me but I think sony has kept its word. I may never need to pick up a sword but my chances of making money faster than an adventure that does pick up a sword is lower. I still get to play and enjoy it no matter what and it does give me a break between the hack and slash I would normally deal with.</DIV>

Lig

03-02-2005, 08:53 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#336633>So you must rake in 1.4 plat per week(at 2 hrs per day at your 10g an hr), at the least..i'd sure like to know where you are hunting <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> because at lvl 26 you can make maybe 10g per week if you get lucky and play 2-4hrs a night.</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Sure... I am hunting in Feerott where everything that drops sells for at least 1 gold and the obelisk of lost souls where every chest drop sells for 2+ gold.</P> <P>Any other questions?<BR></P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry wrote Zek for some reason... meant Feer or River for that matter.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Ligur1 on <span class=date_text>03-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:52 AM</span>

Lig

03-02-2005, 08:57 PM

<DIV>You know most of you people are all just either blind or stupid. I know plent of 40+ and they all make tons of cash when they want to in Feer or Rivervale and the Obelisk. IF you don't know how or where to make money that is not my fault.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Go figure it out and you will have plenty of cash period.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Whine whine whine that's all most of you do.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Ligur1 on <span class=date_text>03-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:53 AM</span>

Jeridor

03-02-2005, 09:29 PM

<blockquote><hr>Melampus wrote:selling crafted items to the vendor does make profit..it's the amount of profit that you're concerned about."you have to make a Y items to make the profit that an adventurer can make killing X amount of mobs"I agree...but how much risk was involved in making those items? How many times did you have to repair your armor...how many friends help did you need...how well do you have to know your class to make those itemsthese are all questions that need to be asked to when determining profit for selling to vendor.<hr></blockquote>No, selling crafted things to the vendor (or doing guild writs) does not profit at all. You get back the price of your fuels, and that's it. You can test this by crafting something and counting out all the fuels used (including partial fuels for things like WORTs) and you'll find the payout is exactly the cost of your fuels. Raw resources have no value, so if you consider these valuable in any regard, you actually lose money by selling to a vendor. If you make your own tertiary interims you only get vendor credit for one fuel, not both.Selling to vendors definitely does not profit.Now, doing workshop tasks does, but it's only 60% over your fuel costs. Depending on what items you have to make and the raws/interims you need (or making those) you may make virtually no profit. The best profit I've turned at this point off these is about 2 gold on making 10 tier 4 musical instruments. They were a pain to make, requiring a ton of combines. It would probably take me well over an hour to make 10 of these for one task. So you're looking at 2g an hour. I would say most level 38 adventurers (my woodworker level at that time) are making over 2 gold per hour. Just one chest drop from rivervale will probably net you over 2g. I'm not even sure I could make 10 instruments in an hour... if I went as fast as possible and made my own interims, maybe I could.The disparity between adventure and craft income cannot be waved off due to "risk". The only monetary cost for death is a canceled drink effect and repairing gear. Theoretically most of us aren't dying all the time when adventuring, so we can stretch out our drinks pretty well and gear repair has a pretty laughable cost. I don't think you can put a value on how well one knows how to play their profession, and I don't think it's a relevant part of the discussion. But getting back one final time to the statement you made, no you do not profit selling to vendors. If you want to know how we can profit, let me explain it in adventuring terms.Let's pretend for sake of numbers you're say level 35.You are given a quest to kill 30 green mobs. None of these mobs give loot.Your quest advances and you must kill 20 blue mobs. None of these mobs give loot.Your quest advances and you must kill 10 blue to yellow con mobs. Again no loot.You finally complete all this and return for your reward: 1 to 2 gold.Is this a quest you'd consider financially worth it? Would you do this quest over and over for the money it provides?Edit: my above numbers of "kills" are actually a little low I think. I didn't cross-reference a recipe. In fact I know they are low. Consider most instruments consist of:1x lumber1x planed lumber1x leather stretch1x leather strap/cord/etc1x leather/cloth/metal refine1x leather/cloth/metal interim6x wortThat's 12 combines then the final combine for #13. Multiply that by 10 items needed for a task, that's 130 "kills" to get 1-2 gold. Even my pessimism was optimistic. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by Jeridor on <span class=date_text>03-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:38 AM</span>

Evil_Homer'04

03-02-2005, 10:55 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ligur1 wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#336633>So you must rake in 1.4 plat per week(at 2 hrs per day at your 10g an hr), at the least..i'd sure like to know where you are hunting <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> because at lvl 26 you can make maybe 10g per week if you get lucky and play 2-4hrs a night.</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Sure... I am hunting in Zek where everything that drops sells for at least 1 gold and the obelisk of lost souls where every chest drop sells for 2+ gold.</P> <P>Any other questions?<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Really? <STRONG><U><EM>Everything</EM></U></STRONG> that drops in Zek sells for at least 1 gold? I have two words for you:</P> <P>Velium Torque</P> <P>By far and away the most frequent loot drop for that zone. Total no-stats vendor fodder. Sells for 48sp. (may be 42sp, can't recall exact amount off the top of my head, but I know for a fact it's in the 40's)</P> <P>Other common dropped items from the standard loot table for the zone:<BR>Broadcloth Mitts - no stats vendor fodder<BR>Feyiron Kite Shield - no stats vendor fodder<BR>Opalline Necklace - no stats vendor fodder</P> <P>The majority of the loot drops in Zek are trash. A minor percentage (maybe 25% of the loot?) is something worthwhile to sell to other players, and most of those drops you will probably find while grouped, which means you have a 1 in 6 shot of being lucky enough to get it. And if you do get it, there's another chance that it can be used by someone in the group, so if you're in the standard NBG group, you'll wind up giving it away. Most of the good items are quest rewards that you can only get one of and the quest can't be repeated.</P>

Melamp

03-02-2005, 11:24 PM

<blockquote><hr>Jeridor wrote:<blockquote><hr>.<hr></blockquote>No, selling crafted things to the vendor (or doing guild writs) does not profit at all. You get back the price of your fuels, and that's it. You can test this by crafting something and counting out all the fuels used (including partial fuels for things like WORTs) and you'll find the payout is exactly the cost of your fuels. Raw resources have no value, so if you consider these valuable in any regard, you actually lose money by selling to a vendor. If you make your own tertiary interims you only get vendor credit for one fuel, not both.Selling to vendors definitely does not profit.</blockquote>ok, T5 inkI'll make 4 of them for an example1 fuel/root/water = 4 oil4 fuel/oil/rock = 4 regent/loam2 fuel/root/water = 8 wash4 fuel/reagent/wash = 4 dye4 fuel/dye/wash = 4 ink15 fuel = 1g 38s 3 water = 21c (can't remember off hand)loam vedors for 5s 99c or 6s 41c we'll use the low endInk sales for 30s 69c or 31s 55c again use the low end[(30s 69c * 4) + (5s 99c * 4)] = 1g 46s 72ca profit of: 8s 13c

Solarax

03-02-2005, 11:41 PM

you all say crafting and adventuring is apples and oranges which i agree BUT there is one HUGE thing they should be the same in which they ARE NOT.crafting is nowhere near as fun as adventuring and in fact has become so tedious there has been a huge amount of provisioners and alchies especialy quiting crafting such as me and im a T5 alchie that will no longer craft.that is a huge problem.it just isnt funoh btw you can incur crafting xp debt wich is 10x worse than normal xp debt as i can personaly verify

Lancealittle

03-03-2005, 12:05 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Solarax wrote:<BR>you all say crafting and adventuring is apples and oranges which i agree BUT there is one HUGE thing they should be the same in which they ARE NOT.<BR><BR>crafting is nowhere near as fun as adventuring and in fact has become so tedious there has been a huge amount of provisioners and alchies especialy quiting crafting such as me and im a T5 alchie that will no longer craft.<BR><BR>that is a huge problem.<BR><BR>it just isnt fun<BR><BR><BR>oh btw you can incur crafting xp debt wich is 10x worse than normal xp debt as i can personaly verify<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>I think you're correct there. Crafting in all games has been tedious so far. I think they tried to change that a bit in this game, but it's still not <EM>fun</EM> yet. Maybe they could make more of a 'mini-game' out of it like /gems.</P> <P>It would also be nice is you were able to get xps towards the next level by doing things besides 'grinding'. They want to spice up adventuring by encouraging people to do things besides sitting in one spot and doing repetitive kills, but crafting hasn't found a way around that yet.</P> <P>Perhaps they could have quests to get xps. The quests could get more difficult as you level so each level is harder to get.</P> <P>Here's and example: </P> <P>To get from level 12 to 13 you could just make the same item over and over, or you could do the following:</P> <OL> <LI>Find the NPC that has your recipe book.</LI> <LI>Finish his crafting task.</LI> <LI>Make an item and bring it to an NPC.</LI> <LI>Return to your society in a certain time limit.</LI> <LI>Sell 10 items to other players for a minimum amount (no selling for a loss).</LI> <LI> Make one of every item in your book.</LI></OL> <P>That could all be steps in one quest that gives enough xps to get a level. I think that would be more fun than the traditional crafting grind.</P> <P>Sorry If I got off the posts topic of 'crafting sucks compared to adventuring!'</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

Melamp

03-03-2005, 12:58 AM

yes, crafting is tedious, One thing that would make it better, imo, taking from star wars galaxies, is factories..or at least the concept.Something that will make your items for you taking the same amount of resources but only yielding a percentage of the XP.This will free up time to enjoy the game with adventuring, give more time to harvest, not be bored to death with pushing the same buttons over and over again, would make multiple items, (eg 100 planed elms) this way you can get those and make what you want with them or add other materials and put them back in.Drawbacks could includeneeding 20 materials for 2% of xp vs 5 materials for 2% of of xp doing it by hand. Take money to maintain, has to be kept in your apartment.Could this flood the market with goods...yes..but when making things by hand you're doing the same thing. I believe it takes somewhere in the neighborhood of 1500 essences for a player to lvl from 40-50 alchem. (working on a very indepth analysis now) which means that one alchemist needs about 100 fighter class ppl to buy 1 of each of their skills from him. Are there 100 figher class ppl in the 40-50 range on your server..maybe.maybe not...but there probably more than one alchemist in that range so supply > demand even with hand made.Crafting shouldn't be a timesink as it currently is...if the server was limited to a certain amount of each trade craft then it should be tedious as you are one of 5 total sages on the server and you're gonna have a lot of customers...but when there are 200 sages on each server you're not going to make profit from players simply because there's not enough demand to support the amount of players that want to tradeskill

Lig

03-03-2005, 10:16 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Evil_Homer'04 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ligur1 wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#336633>So you must rake in 1.4 plat per week(at 2 hrs per day at your 10g an hr), at the least..i'd sure like to know where you are hunting <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> because at lvl 26 you can make maybe 10g per week if you get lucky and play 2-4hrs a night.</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Sure... I am hunting in Zek where everything that drops sells for at least 1 gold and the obelisk of lost souls where every chest drop sells for 2+ gold.</P> <P>Any other questions?<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Really? <STRONG><U><EM>Everything</EM></U></STRONG> that drops in Zek sells for at least 1 gold? I have two words for you:</P> <P>Velium Torque</P> <P>By far and away the most frequent loot drop for that zone. Total no-stats vendor fodder. Sells for 48sp. (may be 42sp, can't recall exact amount off the top of my head, but I know for a fact it's in the 40's)</P> <P>Other common dropped items from the standard loot table for the zone:<BR>Broadcloth Mitts - no stats vendor fodder<BR>Feyiron Kite Shield - no stats vendor fodder<BR>Opalline Necklace - no stats vendor fodder</P> <P>The majority of the loot drops in Zek are trash. A minor percentage (maybe 25% of the loot?) is something worthwhile to sell to other players, and most of those drops you will probably find while grouped, which means you have a 1 in 6 shot of being lucky enough to get it. And if you do get it, there's another chance that it can be used by someone in the group, so if you're in the standard NBG group, you'll wind up giving it away. Most of the good items are quest rewards that you can only get one of and the quest can't be repeated.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>As I said I mistyped.. not Zek Feerott<BR>