So what is the point of wholesale vendors being leveled up?

[Zarevil]

"- Removed lower level refined and interim products that tradeskill merchants were selling. Bread, pasta, and a packet of spices will still be sold because these items are used through every level range."Why? Why in the world is this being changed? The whole point many of us have done to level the societies is so that we had more of these lower level things available? Do we honestly expect folks to go back and do fossil tempers? Refine Nutmeg? and a whole list of low level items that were added as we worked to level the society up? Is there something so game imbalancing about this that I am missing? It really is not needed to remove *everything* that might make life easier for those that craft, or at least used to craft.

[Kroder]

<DIV>I saw this one coming.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They never intended for the wholesaler societies to reach those levels that quickly.  They consider it unbalancing, apparently, that these items do not need to be harvested.  Plus, they want people using the alternate books to make their own subcombines.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I expected them to drop the wholesaler societies down to level 5 or so, since the workshops have the books for all the levels above 9 anyhow.  Kinda wierd, they left the level of the wholesaler societies intact, but just took away all the benefits gained because of the levels.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I guess they expected outcry if they actually deleveled them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Platfing]

<DIV>Anything to slow down leveling (increase timesinks).  It's SOE - remember?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Bhagpuss]

<DIV>I think this is a retrograde step, although I don't think it is exactly gamebreaking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As an adventurer-provisioner I am very much in the habit of grabbing a stack of Wheat Malt from the vendor, knocking out a stack of whisky or vodka in 10 minutes or so and passing it on to my lower level characters to hand out in their groups. I was very much looking forward to the Trade Guild hitting a high enough level to sell Rye Malt, thereby allowing me to supply my characters as they level up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm a 40th provisioner now, and I did not enjoy spending over an hour on Sunday making 20th level drinks from scratch from grey-con recipes so that my high 20s group could go adventuring. There is absolutely no chance that I would ever make a grey con recipe from scratch to sell, but it did used to be relatively painless to blast through just using vendor-bought malt.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If players of the correct level would care to sell their malts etc for the same price that the vendor does, i would be delighted to buy them, but obviously they won't.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's annoying, and obviously it impacts a number of classes. It makes the idea of levelling up the Trade Guilds totally purposeless as far as I can see, as the only benefit was the extra stock on the vendor. However, it's a minor issue and I'm sure we'll get used to it soon enough.</DIV>

[Jaffa Tamarin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bhagpuss wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If players of the correct level would care to sell their malts etc for the same price that the vendor does, i would be delighted to buy them, but obviously they won't.<BR></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Or maybe they will now they don't have to compete with an NPC vendor carrying an inexhaustible supply of cut-price stock.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm hoping SoE will introduce some benefit for a character having status within their society, rather than significant benefits based on society level, so we can maybe get rid of the phenomenon of every new crafter making a beeline for the highest level society in their town, to get the benefits without having to do any work.</DIV>

[Mezrin_Kort]

<DIV>Make what you can see from the whole vendor dependent upon the individual as opposed to the society as a whole?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I like it!</DIV>

[Dazzler_Twodir]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mezrin_Kortex wrote:<BR> <DIV>Make what you can see from the whole vendor dependent upon the individual as opposed to the society as a whole?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I like it!</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Good luck ever finding a node to harvest then.</P> <P>If it's gonna work like that every ode will be farmed the second it appears.</P> <P> </P> <P>This wipes out all usefulness the Tradeskill Society has.</P> <P> </P> <P>Typical knee -jerk reation witrh a swing of the mighty nerf hammer.</P> <P> </P> <P>Or in this case Nerf wrecking ball.</P>

[Mezrin_Kort]

<DIV>Really hope the Devs respond ot this one way or another.  This is too large of an issue to just shove down peopels throats.  IMO</DIV>

[Eirw]

<DIV>What is the point of status in the tradeskill societies?  I'm #4 in my workshop and have nothing to show for it.  Why not make it like faction merchants?  The more tasks you do, the more favor you gain and then they cut you a deal or offer some new items.  This would be a great incentive for people to do these tasks.  They would have to stay with one society and not change to whoever is the highest level.  It would add some value to the tasks; since the last patch they seem kind of meaningless and not very cost effective. Serious crafters can work towards leveling themselves in their society and open up these items that were taken away.  Just a thought.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Eirwen Lasgalen</DIV> <DIV>Level 32 Monk</DIV> <DIV>Level 35 Provisioner</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Grizelda Grimwall</DIV> <DIV>Level 18 Warlock</DIV> <DIV>Level 29 Alchemist</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Samnas]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Platfinger wrote:<BR> <DIV>Anything to slow down leveling (increase timesinks).  It's SOE - remember?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Ya I am pretty sure that is why they gave huge increase in solo exp awhile back (with another large increase in solo exp currently on test server).  </P> <P></FONT> </P> <P>As for the actual topic being discussed I would also like to see there be a point now to a societies level.</FONT></P>

[Eelyen]

<DIV>Yea this does seem to be a rather big issue.  They should address this.</DIV>

[mino]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Samnas wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Platfinger wrote:<BR> <DIV>Anything to slow down leveling (increase timesinks).  It's SOE - remember?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Ya I am pretty sure that is why they gave huge increase in solo exp awhile back (with another large increase in solo exp currently on test server).  </P> <P></FONT></P> <P>As for the actual topic being discussed I would also like to see there be a point now to a societies level.</FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> LOL yeah they said they gave a large increase but have you actually noticed how slow exp is gained solo?  you actually think they are gonna make anything easier?  NO they want the game as frustrating as possible so that it takes people longer to reach level 50 because they dont' have enough content for the end game because they had to rush EQ out the door to beat that other game.<p>Message Edited by minobu on <span class=date_text>03-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:30 AM</span>

[Samnas]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> minobu wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Samnas wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Platfinger wrote:<BR> <DIV>Anything to slow down leveling (increase timesinks).  It's SOE - remember?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Ya I am pretty sure that is why they gave huge increase in solo exp awhile back (with another large increase in solo exp currently on test server).  </P> <P></FONT></P> <P>As for the actual topic being discussed I would also like to see there be a point now to a societies level.</FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> LOL yeah they said they gave a large increase but have you actually noticed how slow exp is gained solo?  you actually think they are gonna make anything easier?  NO they want the game as frustrating as possible so that it takes people longer to reach level 50 because they dont' have enough content for the end game because they had to rush EQ out the door to beat that other game. <P>Message Edited by minobu on <SPAN class=date_text>03-01-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:30 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Ok let me get this straight.  You admit and agree there was a large increase in solo exp yet you then say they will never actually do anything to make the game easier?  Which is it?  Sorry but without some logic to your post it sounds like one of many people who just like to whine.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Of course they have to balance the exp gain with content, but that in no way means the game came out too early.  What would be the fun of a game where we were all level 50 already?  I enjoy gaining exp and enjoy levelling, but the last thing I want is to make it too easy.  They have to balance making the game a fun challenge while NOT frustrating people.  That is the last thing they want to do... they are trying to make money by the way and frustrating people causes many to leave the game (and the rest just whine on the boards it seems).  Of course not everyone is going to be happy we all would like to see different amounts of challenge or different types of challenges, but I imagine they are trying there best to make this game as enjoyable as possible for a broad audience.</FONT></DIV>

[SavinDwa]

<DIV>Zarevil,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only reason why the societies have this stuff was a design bug early on.  They allow people to make tonbs of money completing harvesting quests for the wholesaler without needing to harvest.  You could buy them off the broker and turn them in.  This made money very fast for a lot of players and leveled the societies very very fast.  I think the original plan was to have this societies kind of level with the average level of the server.  The problem comes in 12 months if the average level is 30 and you start a new character or artisan good luck on finding raw materials ... very few players will be harvesting level 1 stuff by then.</DIV>

[Kroder]

<DIV>It was not the person actually buying from the broker for these quests, that made the serious coin.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It was the people doing the gathering.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For some reason, people assume that the gatherer's were selling dirt cheap.  No offense intended, but that is a very naive assumption.</DIV> <DIV>They sold their product for as much as they possibly could, and still get sales.  Normally, 90%, or more, of a quest reward went towards purchasing the next set of items, IF you were lucky.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It was very common for someone to take a loss on one transaction, hoping to make it up on the next.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Doing the tradeskill writs was actually more cost effective.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why did we do them this way? Two Reasons.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <OL> <LI>This allowed the societies to begin selling items that were useful to us.</LI> <LI>The people gathering the goods in these quests, also gathered goods along the way we needed.  With less demand on them though, these goods were sold at dump prices.  This allowed us to produce goods at low cost, and turn around and sell them for low price.  Ever wonder at why food prices shot up after? That contributed to it.</LI></OL> <P>It was never an exploit.  The devs knew about it, commented on it, and accepted it.  The fact that they changed it was for reasons many never considered.</P> <P> </P>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eirwen wrote:<BR> <DIV>What is the point of status in the tradeskill societies?  I'm #4 in my workshop and have nothing to show for it.  Why not make it like faction merchants?  The more tasks you do, the more favor you gain and then they cut you a deal or offer some new items.  This would be a great incentive for people to do these tasks.  They would have to stay with one society and not change to whoever is the highest level.  It would add some value to the tasks; since the last patch they seem kind of meaningless and not very cost effective. Serious crafters can work towards leveling themselves in their society and open up these items that were taken away.  Just a thought.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I aggree 100%</P> <P>I have a meagre status of 400 in my outfitter society but I can buy tier2 interims dirt cheap exactly like the ones who have 4000 status - this is wrong.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300><FONT color=#ff9900>The whole idea of</FONT> <STRONG>society status = availability of items </STRONG></FONT><FONT color=#ff9900>is wrong because after a year or so every society will have averything available up to tier4 probably and the crafting system will be completely broken by then.</FONT></P> <P>The societies should simply provide different vendors for different status, the better your status the more interims you can buy -- <FONT color=#99cc00>these items of course must be no-trade otherwise...you know :smileywink:- </FONT>so that people like me are forced again to:</P> <P>a) make eveything on their own (why having those *secondary* crafting skills introduced otherwise?!) for moneys sake<BR>b) buy from the specialist (=another player) for times sake<BR>c) or earn the privilege to buy stuff like stroma oil for some copper in doing writs</P> <P>And while where at it - according to titles like<FONT color=#99cc00> "hunter of gnolls" a certain amount of status points should also earn an "artisan apprentice", "craftsman adept" or "armorer master"</FONT> combine that with status-vendors and the system works as intended again.</P> <P>I know it sounds easy - I guess it always does when one doenst have to do the scripting himself :smileywink:</P> <p>Message Edited by Tradeskill_Addict on <span class=date_text>03-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:05 PM</span>

[Dazzler_Twodir]

<DIV>On Mistmoore there 3 Societies above level 13.</DIV> <DIV>The rest are under 5.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wayfarer's in Willow Wood is Level 17 and EVERYONE has moved there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Looks like they added the old guild code to them because a few weeks ago WF was 3 oranges from 18 and now they're 8 blues from 16.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for making your own WORTs NO THANKS!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have enough combines for my own stuff and not enough space.</DIV>

[Fragzzt]

<DIV>***Anything to slow down leveling (increase timesinks).  It's SOE - remember?****</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yea, anything to try to make it so it actually takes you the amount of time SOE wants it to take then busting thru the levels.  How dare them try to keep people from maxxing out levels too fast for their plan.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I still dont understand the idea of people wanting to get to max level fast.  If you want that, get a single player game, type in the god mode cheat, and jump to the end game part of it.   Oh, wait, I remember now, today people want everything NOW NOW NOW!!!  What you mean, I have to actually spend time, sometimes long times to be able to get my next level of stuff?!??!?!   How dare you..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Sebastien]

The entire system of the wholesale and specialized societies never seemed well-planned to me. There was very little incentive for someone new to work on their standing in one society, as opposed to simply joining the one that was highest. And there was absolutely no reason I could see to caring what level the specialized society was.. you just run in there every now and then for books.I'll look forward to seeing them do something more creative in this area.Perhaps incentives can be developed to make it feel a bit more like a friendly player competition between societies. At the very least, I'd like to see members rewarded for their individual standing, and not simply joining the highest level society available to them.

[WuphonsReach]

It feels like societies were supposed to be 'guild-like' (they even have their own MOTDs, status, standing, levels). However, that doesn't really work because unlike a guild, anyone can join any wholesaler society. Which means that everyone flocks to (or creates an alt to access) the highest level society in the city. Reap the reward without expending effort.So yes, I really think we're going to see a major overhaul of how it works. Some ideas that I've /feedback'd:- make status personal, and what you can buy is a function of your standing within the society- require spending of points to purchase advanced items, so a stack of refines would cost you 20 society status (in other words, you have to keep doing society tasks if you want to keep purchasing refines)- better prices if you live in that society's home town (but has the issue of how it would work for folks who live in the city and not in the racial suburbs)- the ability to offer lower broker prices to folks who are also members of the same society (could lead to everyone ending up in the same society)- what you can buy is based off your crafting level, combined with status level within the society

[Kroder]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> WuphonsReach wrote:<BR>It feels like societies were supposed to be 'guild-like' (they even have their own MOTDs, status, standing, levels). However, that doesn't really work because unlike a guild, anyone can join any wholesaler society. Which means that everyone flocks to (or creates an alt to access) the highest level society in the city. Reap the reward without expending effort.<BR><BR>So yes, I really think we're going to see a major overhaul of how it works. Some ideas that I've /feedback'd:<BR><BR>- make status personal, and what you can buy is a function of your standing within the society<BR><BR>- require spending of points to purchase advanced items, so a stack of refines would cost you 20 society status (in other words, you have to keep doing society tasks if you want to keep purchasing refines)<BR><BR>- better prices if you live in that society's home town (but has the issue of how it would work for folks who live in the city and not in the racial suburbs)<BR><BR>- the ability to offer lower broker prices to folks who are also members of the same society (could lead to everyone ending up in the same society)<BR><BR>- what you can buy is based off your crafting level, combined with status level within the society<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Those are all good ideas.</P> <P>  Personally, I would be satisfied with status in a society being personal.  The more status you have with a society, the more they offer to you.  Noone gets anything extra without working for it.</P> <P>It would certainly eliminate the focus of joining high level societies.</P> <P> </P>

[Rijacki]

On Antonia Bayle there is one society which is 20.The wholesalers sell all T2 and above WROTS for 7c. The other goods on the NPC vendor are also lower in price than one can craft them. Thier method of having the selling price for the wholesaler broke at some point before the buy-backs based on the new fuel was implemented.. the selling price, I believe, assumes the 6c fuel (which no longer exists) making items cheaper to buy than make.With provisioner refines, there are bots that take a drink refine and make a single combine drink and sell it and put it on the broker for far cheaper than most provisioners will sell it. While I am all for lower pricing of food and drink, using a bot to do it is cheesy.

[Kroder]

<DIV>I hate botters like that.  They are selfish jerks who only think of themselves, and care nothing for the damage that they inflict on their game environment.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I wish they would just play the game the way it was intended, and quit cheating like that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Because of them, changes put into the game to discourage them, also end up messing with us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Qwindar]

People still craft? Wow, I knew I should not have become a woodworker.

[Boza]

Well, I hope this change appeases the 7 people who still craft regularly. Whoa, I forgot about the 1934213 Provisioners, who really won't be affected by this anyway.

[bobafet]

<DIV>If people are complaining about the price of food and drink now, just wait till we have to actually pay more for the low level components, unless of course you want to waste time making them yourself for no xp.</DIV> <DIV>There will just be less food and drink to go around.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Sebastien]

<blockquote><hr>WuphonsReach wrote:It feels like societies were supposed to be 'guild-like' (they even have their own MOTDs, status, standing, levels). However, that doesn't really work because unlike a guild, anyone can join any wholesaler society. Which means that everyone flocks to (or creates an alt to access) the highest level society in the city. Reap the reward without expending effort.So yes, I really think we're going to see a major overhaul of how it works. Some ideas that I've /feedback'd:- make status personal, and what you can buy is a function of your standing within the society- require spending of points to purchase advanced items, so a stack of refines would cost you 20 society status (in other words, you have to keep doing society tasks if you want to keep purchasing refines)- better prices if you live in that society's home town (but has the issue of how it would work for folks who live in the city and not in the racial suburbs)- the ability to offer lower broker prices to folks who are also members of the same society (could lead to everyone ending up in the same society)- what you can buy is based off your crafting level, combined with status level within the society<hr></blockquote>Excellent suggestions.

[Madil]

<DIV>The only possible problem with the status being personal and having merchants sell the WORTs or other items and give discounts based on status is that inevitably someone will level their status up then start buying up the NPC goods and reselling them on the broker at a higher price. This might be why it wasn't done on an individual basis.</DIV>

[Kroder]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Madilye wrote:<BR> <DIV>The only possible problem with the status being personal and having merchants sell the WORTs or other items and give discounts based on status is that inevitably someone will level their status up then start buying up the NPC goods and reselling them on the broker at a higher price. This might be why it wasn't done on an individual basis.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>You are describing a commodities trader, it seems.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am led to wonder, is that unfair at all?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>We already have many, self professed, individuals who stand ready to buy brokered items if they see them being sold at below market value, so they can resell them.  </P> <P>Are they wrong to do so?  Are they interfering with an intended kindness, towards a stranger?  Or are they just grabbing a chance to turn a quick coin?</P> <P> </P> <P>In EQ1, many resold Fuzzlecutter Formula 5000, in the bazaar, because many characters could not, (or did not want to take the time to), go down to freeport, and buy from Ping directly.  These merchants were usually hailed as benefactors, who performed a needed service.</P> <P> </P>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Madilye wrote:<BR> <DIV>The only possible problem with the status being personal and having merchants sell the WORTs or other items and give discounts based on status is that inevitably someone will level their status up then start buying up the NPC goods and reselling them on the broker at a higher price. This might be why it wasn't done on an individual basis.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Make the stuff no-trade (as was allready mentioned before) and everythings fine - because players cant transfer this stuff to their alts then either <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[mino]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Samnas wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> minobu wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Samnas wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Platfinger wrote:<BR> <DIV>Anything to slow down leveling (increase timesinks).  It's SOE - remember?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Ya I am pretty sure that is why they gave huge increase in solo exp awhile back (with another large increase in solo exp currently on test server).  </P> <P></FONT></P> <P>As for the actual topic being discussed I would also like to see there be a point now to a societies level.</FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> LOL yeah they said they gave a large increase but have you actually noticed how slow exp is gained solo?  you actually think they are gonna make anything easier?  NO they want the game as frustrating as possible so that it takes people longer to reach level 50 because they dont' have enough content for the end game because they had to rush EQ out the door to beat that other game. <P>Message Edited by minobu on <SPAN class=date_text>03-01-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:30 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Ok let me get this straight.  You admit and agree there was a large increase in solo exp yet you then say they will never actually do anything to make the game easier?  <FONT color=#ff0000>HELLO did you READ the post?  I ACTUALLY said "they said they gave a large increase"  so next time you decide to flame me at least read the post because nowhere did I say I thought it was actually a large increase only that we were told it was a large increase.  </FONT>Which is it?  Sorry but without some logic to your post it sounds like one of many people who just like to whine.  <FONT color=#ff0000>Without actually reading my post you have decided to say I was whining?  But like most small minded people you attack someone and don't just stick to the issue that you disagree with my statement.  I guess I should not expect to deal with adults on an internet forum for a game but sometimes you hope.</FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT></DIV> <DIV>Of course they have to balance the exp gain with content, but that in no way means the game came out too early.  What would be the fun of a game where we were all level 50 already?  I enjoy gaining exp and enjoy levelling, but the last thing I want is to make it too easy.  They have to balance making the game a fun challenge while NOT frustrating people.  That is the last thing they want to do... they are trying to make money by the way and frustrating people causes many to leave the game (and the rest just whine on the boards it seems).  <FONT color=#ff0000>So in your opinion the only choices are either quit playing and don't say a word or "whine" on the forums about it?  So I guess if you have a complaint there is no point in posting that you have a problem with the game and should just quit because YOU don't want to listen to anyone that has a different opinion of EQ than you do?  </FONT><FONT color=#ff0000>Just because someone is not happy with the choices SOE makes regarding EQ and decides to post his opinion on the forums which are of course here for that purpose doesn't mean he is whining.  But of course this statement is par for the course for fanboys of SOE who just can't seem to fathom that people might actually think EQ is not the holy grail of games. </FONT>Of course not everyone is going to be happy we all would like to see different amounts of challenge or different types of challenges, but I imagine they are trying there best to make this game as enjoyable as possible for a broad audience.</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#ff0000>Heres an idea you don't like what I post don't read it I know thats a concept and of course you wouldn't get the daily dose of self esteem that you derive from flaming others rather than just sticking to the discussion.</FONT>