Dev Please Comment on Range Slot Balance

[SunT]

<DIV>There are many strings on several class pages that discuss the lack of an equipable  range item for stat purposes for Crusader, Priest and Mage classes.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I feel this is an imbalance issue.  I would like to see a developer comment on what the thinking of SOE is on this issue, i.e.  plan to fix or think it is working as intended.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If it is not planned to be rectified, I would like to hear why it is considered 'Balance' that half the classes get one more slot than the other half.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have read most of the strings and cannot see any justification to add stats to a few select classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Xlap]

<DIV>hate to say it, but repost this without the words "dev" or "mod" or anything like that in the topic. they have said they will NOT respond to something like that in the title</DIV>

[SunT]

<DIV>If you don't mind, please go search the Dev Tracker and you will see that on numerous occasions they have in fact responded directly to direct post using thier name and or title.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Perhaps they stated somewhere that they would not bit it appears they have changed thier mind.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This issue has been brought up in many strings and they have yet to comment, I dont care whether they do it here or in another string, I just wnat a comment.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If I don't keep making noise then they will never answer the question.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do appreciate your 'one star' for me, it was a nice gesture.  </DIV>

[slard2]

Yep, I agree.It doesn't seem entirely fair that melee classes get to have an extra slot in which they can equip an item with stats. Wouldn't be difficult to make a few that casters can use, weapons or not.

[CerraWhisperwind]

Casters get off hand items that have better stats than the usual shield or secondary weapon. This balances.

[Krewlryali]

<DIV>For equipment around my level, I have never seen a drop for casters off hand that has AC.  Most offhand items that I have seen have had similar ranks for stats.</DIV>

[SunT]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CerraWhisperwind wrote:<BR>Casters get off hand items that have better stats than the usual shield or secondary weapon. This balances.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>You are talking about the Symbol line.  It is secondary slot equippable only.  The stats are good, but I wouldn't say better than the stats on bows or shields.  And they get BOTH the secondary slot AND the range slot.  There is no item that has the stats equal to both of those slots except maybe the Stein of Moggok, and the classes that cannot use it can use nearly every other primary/secondary Heritage item...except Crusaders who get screwed out of both.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I made another post in this area re this issue.  My suggested solution to this would be to allow the Symbol line to be duo equippable in both the range and secondary slot.  Easy fix from a programming standpoint.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This would be balance.  All classes would have the same number of equipable slots.  No additional abilities would be granted.  Most Bows have no AC and no symbol I have seen yet has any either.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At level 20 this is a non-issue as the stats on items are negligable.  At 35 I am starting to see a major difference.  My gear is far superior to those I am grouping with but thier overall stats are the same or slightly better.  </DIV>

[CerraWhisperwind]

A friend of mine plays a healer and she forgoes a shield in favor of an item with +8 wisdom and other stats... This is easily worth two slots in other gear. She was 31 at the time I saw her with the item, although I think she has had it for a while. Weapons and bows around that level usually have +4 stats total each, or close to it.I would definately not want someone using TWO of those books/icons/whatevers, that would be MUCH more than a weapon and a bow.

[Demothis]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xlapus wrote:<BR> <DIV>hate to say it, but repost this without the words "dev" or "mod" or anything like that in the topic. they have said they will NOT respond to something like that in the title</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Not true, there have been a few times they have even with this statment in effect, even though they seem to frown on directly replying to them. To the OP I dont see why crusaiders can't use bows in the first place and universal Items to be placed into the range slot sounds fair to me.<p>Message Edited by Demothises on <span class=date_text>03-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:49 AM</span>

[Miral]

<DIV>How about letting casters and healers dual wield symbols? can make it so you can't attack with em if ya want... I'm pretty sure EQOA had something similar (though its been a while)</DIV>

[Melamp]

actually melee secondary weapons are just as good or better than any priest symbol or shield

[Kwoung]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SunTsu wrote:<BR> <DIV>If it is not planned to be rectified, I would like to hear why it is considered 'Balance' that half the classes get one more slot than the other half.  <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Because balance has nothing to do with being equal in slots, stats or anything else, it has to do with how a class performs. I can't speak to crusaders, but I know that mage and healer classes perform great with the gear they are currently able to wear and giving us more, could possibly unbalance the classes in the name of trying to make them be able to use an equal number of slots.</DIV>

[Melamp]

<blockquote><hr>Kwoung wrote:<DIV>Because balance has nothing to do with being equal in slots, stats or anything else, it has to do with how a class performs. I can't speak to crusaders, but I know that mage and healer classes perform great with the gear they are currently able to wear and giving us more, could possibly unbalance the classes in the name of trying to make them be able to use an equal number of slots.</DIV><hr></blockquote>That really makes no sense..so would you say it would be better to take the stats away from from the range slots all together?that way melee get the use of the range slot which keeps them doing what they do know which in your mind is balanced yet we could put things in the range slot with no benefit whatsoever as we already perform as intended.

[CerraWhisperwind]

What he means is the classes may be balanced with this disparity in slots in mind. There may be other benifits they get instead.You cannot compare each little part to each little part, you have to compare the classes as a whole.

[Kwoung]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Melampus wrote:<BR><BR>That really makes no sense..so would you say it would be better to take the stats away from from the range slots all together?<BR>that way melee get the use of the range slot which keeps them doing what they do know which in your mind is balanced yet we could put things in the range slot with no benefit whatsoever as we already perform as intended.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>It makes perfect sense, you not understanding what balance is, is most likely what is causing your confusion. A mage with a single slot for a robe and nothing else *could* be balanced against a fighter type with 30 slots if they choose to do it that way.. they obviously didn't, but the fact that the fighters have access to one more slot has absolutely zero to do with balance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Stop confusing balance with equality or being identical and you will understand how it works.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Kwoung on <span class=date_text>02-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:43 PM</span>

[Melamp]

Your idea of balance is perception so is mine..neither is correct.This game is different than eq1 in the since that all classes need mana ..the more the betteris all classes equipped the same balanced if they all have the same mana?Are they out of balance because some classes and equipt a useful item in a slot others can't put anything at all in?Are they out of balance because certain classes can build stats from a slot no one else can?I think i've played the game as long are long as anyone else so I have as much of an idea of balance as anyone else...I think it wouldn't break the game for priest and mages to have some sort of item..be it a charm or something else that could go in the range slot and provide stats and benefits. I don't think you would see the scout/fighter classes complaining because they wouldn't think it's out of balance.

[SunT]

<blockquote><hr>CerraWhisperwind wrote:A friend of mine plays a healer and she forgoes a shield in favor of an item with +8 wisdom and other stats... This is easily worth two slots in other gear. She was 31 at the time I saw her with the item, although I think she has had it for a while. Weapons and bows around that level usually have +4 stats total each, or close to it.I would definately not want someone using TWO of those books/icons/whatevers, that would be MUCH more than a weapon and a bow.<hr></blockquote>I have/had 10 wis on my sheild, plus stats. Look me up on Players.This arguement Re class balancing has been made time and again on string after string. This is fast becoming another string of the same old song. Adding a Cedar long bow at 6 int, 8 agil, 7 str, 9 wis, 57 health, 46 power, equippable at level forty when half of the classes can equip NOTHING, is a stat imbalance. It is not even a point you can argue. If you wish to argue the overall 'class' balance issues then make another string. Start with the grand prowess of the druid classes or the Shadowknights, both broken, both littered with issues, both cannot equip a ranged slot. Then make your argument about the slot being fair.I would be curious to know what classes are represented in this string and what side they stand on this argument. It would be my wager that those who can equip are the same ones posting opposition.

[Kwoung]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Melampus wrote:<BR>Your idea of balance is perception so is mine..neither is correct.<BR><BR>This game is different than eq1 in the since that all classes need mana ..the more the better<BR><BR>is all classes equipped the same balanced if they all have the same mana?<BR><BR>Are they out of balance because some classes and equipt a useful item in a slot others can't put anything at all in?<BR><BR>Are they out of balance because certain classes can build stats from a slot no one else can?<BR><BR>I think i've played the game as long are long as anyone else so I have as much of an idea of balance as anyone else...I think it wouldn't break the game for priest and mages to have some sort of item..be it a charm or something else that could go in the range slot and provide stats and benefits. I don't think you would see the scout/fighter classes complaining because they wouldn't think it's out of balance.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Maybe they should change the inventory screen to not show that slot on classes that can't use it, that would solve it for you. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for balance, it is not a perception, it is a delicate balancing of skills, stats and a TON of stuff you can not readilly see. Does +1 agi, int, wis, etc have the same overall effect regardless of which class adds that stat via item, or are there variables in the underlying game that you haven't a clue about that make use of all those stats in different ways across different classes?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyways, yeah, maybe it wouldn't break the game to have some little trinket added for mages, etc that would go in their range slot. But then again, maybe it would throw off all the underlying formulas enough to toss them completely out of whack. One thing is for certain, they balanced the game without range slot items for some classes... and if they changed that now, I would bet you wouldn't be happy at the results. Because basically, they would need to change the values opr alogrythms used across all/some of the other slots to account for the change... nothing comes for free and the overall net result, would most likely end up being reduced overall effectiveness for your character until you found the "perfect" ranged item that could make up for the other reductions you took to be able to use that extra slot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bottom line, your character was balanced with the equpment he was designed to use and is able to currently equip.. change that and everything needs to be rebalanced. What you are asking for is bump up above balanced.. not balancing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[aeio]

Probably should post this on the Items and Equipment forum.. Doesn't really have any direct relation to the test server or the current patch being tested.

[Melamp]

Kwoung What great knowledge of balance do you have?What lvl are you?what encounters have you faced that give credibility to you knowing what other classes can/cannot do.Have you grpped with every other class to see weaknesses and strengths to check for balance?Do you know the function of the other classes to determine if they can perform their roles better or at all with or without a range item/item slot?Balance is perception...if it wasn't then it would be something to hard code and hence would be implented at game launch.It's a matter or perception in which devs all work together to compromise their perception.Why do you think that in every MMORPG it gets twinked from time to time?IE; Complete heals turned into a numerical number; necros fear not working in pvp; Manaburn being on a timer attached to the mob.these are all tweaks, a system of checks and balances to make sure that the game is as balanced as it can be at anygiven time.as far as finding the perfect item for the ranged slot that would make up for the other slots.Each slot is like that, PPL wear Jboots, they take a hit against stats because some boots are better but they perceive speed increase to benefit them more. Gebs have mana regen, maybe someone wants them instead of jboots, I have a mana regen robe with hardly any stats I use yet i perceive the mana regen to be better than the 400 ac I lose and the other hp/mana and stats i use then using an ebon chest piece.I will always be switching items around on my character..not just the one slot of a new item.For ppl to come here and post they aren't demanding it, I think they would rather it be acknowleged by a dev for review and if no change is needed then an explanation on their view of how it is currently balanced.

[Kwoung]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Melampus wrote:<BR>Kwoung <BR><BR>What great knowledge of balance do you have?<BR><BR>What lvl are you?<BR>what encounters have you faced that give credibility to you knowing what other classes can/cannot do.<BR>Have you grpped with every other class to see weaknesses and strengths to check for balance?<BR><BR>Do you know the function of the other classes to determine if they can perform their roles better or at all with or without a range item/item slot?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>That is all immaterial.. the game to date has been balanced without those classes having access to a range slot item.. to change it at this point would throw everything off. If you have some particular beef about your particular class not performing up to snuff, then make a post about it in the correct forum, but to come and say that everyone should be able to use a range item when half the classes have been balanced to date without one, is ridiculous. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for what is my experience with "balance", I play on the Test server in this and in pretty much every other game, and have seen first hand time after time the devistating effects even the slighest of little changes away from the core premises the game was designed around can make.. how about you?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lets see what I know about balance:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The classes have all been designed to work with each other, the mobs have all been balanced against the characters. The exact maximum amount of damage, healing, resists, etc.. is all taken into account when SOE designed all their encounters and balanced the players and mobs against each other.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>NOW.. you want to add stats above and beyond what every single encounter in the game was designed around. How does that effect game balance when all of the sudden, the players going up against supposedly uber mob X can put out more damage, live longer and have a better chance of resisting spells cast upon them than the encounter was designed for? Oh yeah, thats right, none of that matters because your idea of balance is that everyone uses the same number of slots.</DIV>

[Melamp]

It's immaterial because you've probably spent more time here on the forums then playing the game to know what you're talking about.Do you really think the classes are balance? I mean really..if so then I'm mistaken and you've not read up on the forums much at all.So what devasting effects have you seen on EQ2 test server so far?Are you a crafter and gonna tell me how you saw how fubared the tradeskill patch made the economy.I doubt it..I doubt you even craft..but im sure you're gonna tell me that it's gonna even out the economy in the long run..because you're an economist and don't need to participate in tradeskills to give an oppinion correct?Are you really gonna sit back and tell me that mobs have been balanced against the characters max damage,heal resists ect.?recently VoV has been changed it no longer does and 8000+ AE...why...because that's not balanced...because only few...mind you VERY few high end classes can take that amount of damage. Now the damage is more intune with what players can handle.That's just 1 encounter from first hand knowledge....I can also point out mobs that have been beefed up.add stats above and beyond.?Ok explain how a grp of 24 can take out a mob with standard gear if there's gear in the game that has twice as good as stats?Explain how an epic X4 mob can be killed with 17 instead of 4 full grps?Tatic play a bigger role in encounter design than this master formula you think SoE createdThe problem with many of these posts in any forum is you have someone that posts what he percieves as a problem and wants it addressed...it may be a valid complaint or not.then you have ppl that sit around and posts 500 posts a day and have never encountered a problem with what is mentioned and they want to add their two cents in it..the post would be much better off if the only ones replying were ppl who knew what they were talking abuot..I don't go on the rogue forums and read that some skill they have is broke and tell them not to cry about it cause SoE never makes mistakes and encounters were based on that working the way it is currently and if anyone can defeat that encounter it only proves that there is no need to "fix" that skill as it would unbalance the entire world

[Kwoung]

<DIV>Do I think all classes are balanced against each other.. no I don't. But then again, this isn't a PVP game, so classes are not balanced against each other, they are balanced against mobs and encounters. Like I said, if your class is not performing up to snuff in some particular area(s), then take it to your class board and post about it. But since most of the classes that would be affected by your proposed change are actually fairly well balanced and working as intended, to up their power is un-needed and would throw them out of balance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I play a wizard, I do not read the wizard forums, I do not compare my class against a guardian or a defiler or anything else, I just play the game and test and for the most part, I am able to do everything SOE says I am supposed to be able to. I can solo even con mobs effectively, I can sometimes solo higher con mobs and I am a good addition to a group. My wife plays a defiler and has pretty much the same results. A friend of ours plays a scout class and she solos extremely well also.. but of course to read the boards here you would think that she is good for nothing and should be getting killed by greys constantly... funny how our in game experiences differ so vastly from so many of the posters here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bottom line, I do not need any extra items to be effective and function in game in a balanced manner... maybe your class does.. but giving me more power / hitpoints / resists / stats to fix your class doesn't balance the game, it has the exact opposite effect.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And for the record, I have both a Sage and Provisioner working through their 30's.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Kwoung on <span class=date_text>02-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:23 PM</span>

[Melamp]

For starts players should be balanced against the other classes in their archtypes.Priest should have equal healing abilitiesfighters should all tank equally effective.This has been stated by SOEI handle myself very well other ppl that play my class saw we're broken..I agree that some of our stuff is in need of fixing.But do you ever think that maybe something in your class is broke but you've learn to adapt around it?btw what do you test?if it's not for a change that may go on the live server then you are playing the same game as everyone else with advance preview of what others May/may not see.But in order to test these things you have to do themIf there's a change on test to the fuel costs of tradeskilling..and you're not a crafter..you are not testing anything and hence have no valid input on what is going on.You are in a position to ONLY test the wizard class...only WHEN changes occur..so right now the only thing you are testing as for as Wizard is: - El'Arad's Custodial Warding can now be canceled via the spell window. - Concurrence can now be canceled via the spell window. - Fiery Pulse has a new description and icon to reflect that it is a heat-based spell.Which to me are all cosmetic in nature and have no value as far as a game changing effect.Every other wizard in the game has at this point done everything you have as a tester...and possibly more because of lvls...so I'd take their knowledge over a tester in this caseYou're get the TEST the game play changes...stuff like "more xp" "faster boat re-try timers" "rare quest mobs spawning more fequently" "lower grp xp debt".Maybe you should feedback some of these changes...tell Sony that there's ppl like me that...won't be affected by faster xp.....don't need to get back on the boat...have already completed the greenhood quest and don't need gurk to spawn faster...and xp debt doesn't bother me.This way it lets them know that the game balance they had designed in the first place at game launch doesn't need to be changed because obviously characters can advance to new zones..and level and complete quest without the changes.

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<DIV>2 copper from a just-became-<FONT color=#99ff00>Te</FONT><FONT color=#99ff00>mplar</FONT>:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So <FONT color=#99ff00>I can wear plate armor </FONT>which is why I took this class, makes both soloing and being main-healer easier - and I LOVE the EQ2 plate design.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When it comes to shields<FONT color=#99ff00> I can still use nothing better than bucklers which I allready could at lvl 1(!) </FONT>and  I dont understand why. Leave Tower and Kite to the fighters but at least a round shield would have been logical as part of the combat training that enables my class to wear plate.  BUT I can live with that and tell myself <FONT color=#ff9900>"Gesture-casting even with a smallest of shields shield is unrealistic enough so shut up</FONT> and be thankfull to wield a buckler which gives 80 AC at your lvl allready!"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But I am not allowed to throw hammers either which would be/look/feel really cool AND the classic cleric ranged weapon of all time - the sling - is still not invented.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff00>I dont care about a stat-adder in my ranged slot</FONT>, but I do care about using SOME kind of ranged weapon <STRONG>AND</STRONG> having an inventory slot that will NEVER be put to any use.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>sorry for the rant but I feel quite silly when the vendors tell me despite my mixture of leather, chain and plate armor: <FONT color=#ff9900>"Sorry young Templar, but you are either to dumb or to clumsy for throwing hammers like all of your class are. I have to admit although that our outfitters are also to dumb and clumsy to craft a simple sling..."</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[CerraWhisperwind]

Unfortuneatly they can't give you round shields because that is what scout classes are limited to and it would be too much of an advantage over other priests. You get plate but the other priests get alternate forms that add to AC so it all balances. Shields would be another matter.

[Melamp]

<blockquote><hr>CerraWhisperwind wrote:Unfortuneatly they can't give you round shields because that is what scout classes are limited to and it would be too much of an advantage over other priests. You get plate but the other priests get alternate forms that add to AC so it all balances. Shields would be another matter.<hr></blockquote>What do you mean alternate forms that add AC so it all balances out?

[Wasc]

<blockquote><hr>Melampus wrote:<blockquote><hr>CerraWhisperwind wrote:Unfortuneatly they can't give you round shields because that is what scout classes are limited to and it would be too much of an advantage over other priests. You get plate but the other priests get alternate forms that add to AC so it all balances. Shields would be another matter.<hr></blockquote>What do you mean alternate forms that add AC so it all balances out?<hr></blockquote>I believe the poster was referring to the AC bonus added by a Shaman's alternate form, or by the Druid/Fury's alternate forms. These are a self-only spell requiring 1 concentration that they must either use ALL the time or not enjoy the added AC that your heavy armor provides. It's also not listed as "mitigation" the way your armor is, it's just listed as "AC". I don't know if that means it's harder to hit a Shaman in their alternate form, but if you hit it all goes through to their armor, or what. I know that your heavy armor, Templar, provides you with considerably more damage mitigation compared to that of the light armor wearable by a Fury, regardless of their Lion form.

[dparker7]

<DIV>You're making the wrong argument.  You want a change.  You need to cite a reason for the change other than jealousy.  Its not Why dont I have this?  Its Why do I need this?  Its also not Why does he have this and I don't?  Classes are different.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Unless you prove the status quo is not fine, then there is no reason to change other than you're vanity and a desire to spend more coin on items.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Melamp]

<blockquote><hr>dparker713 wrote:<DIV>You're making the wrong argument. You want a change. You need to cite a reason for the change other than jealousy. Its not Why dont I have this? Its Why do I need this? Its also not Why does he have this and I don't? Classes are different.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Unless you prove the status quo is not fine, then there is no reason to change other than you're vanity and a desire to spend more coin on items. </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><hr></blockquote>FACTS:All classes need hpall classes need powerall classes need stam (stam = hp)by some classes gaining access to another slot which has stats in the item then 2 heavy class ppl with the exact same armor/jewelry/weapons on but one being a cleric and one being a guardian the gaurdian is going to have more stats

[CerraWhisperwind]

<blockquote><hr>Melampus wrote:<blockquote><hr>dparker713 wrote:<DIV>You're making the wrong argument. You want a change. You need to cite a reason for the change other than jealousy. Its not Why dont I have this? Its Why do I need this? Its also not Why does he have this and I don't? Classes are different.</div><DIV> </div><DIV>Unless you prove the status quo is not fine, then there is no reason to change other than you're vanity and a desire to spend more coin on items. </div><DIV> </div><DIV> </div><hr></blockquote>FACTS:All classes need hpall classes need powerall classes need stam (stam = hp)by some classes gaining access to another slot which has stats in the item then 2 heavy class ppl with the exact same armor/jewelry/weapons on but one being a cleric and one being a guardian the gaurdian is going to have more stats<hr></blockquote>FACT all classes use power at different rates and have different amounts. This means that +15 power is good for one class but almost usless for another. Its not all the same like you think.

[Melamp]

<blockquote><hr>CerraWhisperwind wrote:<hr></blockquote>FACT all classes use power at different rates and have different amounts. This means that +15 power is good for one class but almost usless for another. Its not all the same like you think.<hr></blockquote>The different rates I can understand..but thats purely situational...a scout may or may not go thru all his power at the begining of a fight...but he may near the end when you want to burn the mob down..same with a mage...priest are going to use their manas for heals and if they have left over they may or may not decide to nuke/dot or save it...a tank may spam his shouts/taunts all throu the fight or he may only use them sparingly and when needed.Rate of mana expensure are based on play style not the classI can show you many scouts that like mana regen so obviously they believe they need mana...and I can show you mages with manastones as they don't think their mana pool is big enoughthere is no class that benefits more or less from extra power than another class

[Meg]

<DIV>Melampus</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The point went flying right over your head a long time ago.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Stop posting.</DIV>

[SunT]

<blockquote><hr>CerraWhisperwind wrote:<blockquote><hr>Melampus wrote:<blockquote><hr>dparker713 wrote:<DIV>You're making the wrong argument. You want a change. You need to cite a reason for the change other than jealousy. Its not Why dont I have this? Its Why do I need this? Its also not Why does he have this and I don't? Classes are different.</div><DIV> </div><DIV>Unless you prove the status quo is not fine, then there is no reason to change other than you're vanity and a desire to spend more coin on items. </div><DIV> </div><DIV> </div><hr></blockquote>FACTS:All classes need hpall classes need powerall classes need stam (stam = hp)by some classes gaining access to another slot which has stats in the item then 2 heavy class ppl with the exact same armor/jewelry/weapons on but one being a cleric and one being a guardian the gaurdian is going to have more stats<hr></blockquote>FACT all classes use power at different rates and have different amounts. This means that +15 power is good for one class but almost usless for another. Its not all the same like you think.<hr></blockquote>This is a ridiculous point. Show me One major fight where someone wasn't close to OOP and I will show you someone who did not use thier toon efficiently.This is about stats. I don't care which stat you want, it is all about stats.Point is that Half of Norrah gets an extra slot. the other half does not.Everyone needs the stats from the slot.The rest of this arguement is a waste of reading.

[CerraWhisperwind]

<blockquote><hr>SunTsu wrote:<blockquote><hr>CerraWhisperwind wrote:<blockquote><hr>Melampus wrote:<blockquote><hr>dparker713 wrote:<DIV>You're making the wrong argument. You want a change. You need to cite a reason for the change other than jealousy. Its not Why dont I have this? Its Why do I need this? Its also not Why does he have this and I don't? Classes are different.</div><DIV> </div><DIV>Unless you prove the status quo is not fine, then there is no reason to change other than you're vanity and a desire to spend more coin on items. </div><DIV> </div><DIV> </div><hr></blockquote>FACTS:All classes need hpall classes need powerall classes need stam (stam = hp)by some classes gaining access to another slot which has stats in the item then 2 heavy class ppl with the exact same armor/jewelry/weapons on but one being a cleric and one being a guardian the gaurdian is going to have more stats<hr></blockquote>FACT all classes use power at different rates and have different amounts. This means that +15 power is good for one class but almost usless for another. Its not all the same like you think.<hr></blockquote>This is a ridiculous point. Show me One major fight where someone wasn't close to OOP and I will show you someone who did not use thier toon efficiently.This is about stats. I don't care which stat you want, it is all about stats.Point is that Half of Norrah gets an extra slot. the other half does not.Everyone needs the stats from the slot.The rest of this arguement is a waste of reading.<hr></blockquote>Actually, the point is that every character class is different. If you compare a single point of any two classes, most times one will be superior. Guardians get heavy armor. Wizards get robes. This makes Guardians better than Wizards right?Mages and priests get much better HOs than the rest of the classes. Most of the rest of the classes get ranged items. Balance involves every aspect of a class not just one little point.

[Melamp]

<blockquote><hr>Meg wrote:<DIV>Melampus</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>The point went flying right over your head a long time ago.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Stop posting.</DIV><hr></blockquote>Who the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] are you and what the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] do you know about this game

[Melamp]

Interesting...Tonight a friend of mine got Spikeshot of Doomnice bow...level 30 requirement...stats are9int8agi10str10wis58health50powerSlot: Ranged

[JarredDarque]

<DIV>Good LOrd that is a nice bow!  that would asdd a few hundred overall to my power pool and health pools!  but alas, I am a Pally, one forsaken to USE POWER to do a pull in order to get any decent range.   I believe the ranged slot should be usable by all, priests/crusaders get some type of holy symbol, casters get some type of magical artifact or something.   Would it unbalance the game no</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BTW   when the anti-ranged slot caster placed his last argument about imbalance, you realize that the classes that cannot use said slot are the ones that NEED the extra power?  I am a Pally, and I love being a Pally, but I need to burn more mana to keep aggro on me than guards,zerkers.  Dont know about monks/bruisers.   That 'only 15 extra power' that the healer could have, could very well save the group from a wipe, or it could let that mage get off that last nuke and finish the mob.   that 'only 15 power' could be a serious lifesaver that would favor ALL classes, even ones with that 15 power already.  </DIV>

[Kwoung]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Melampus wrote:<BR>Interesting...<BR><BR>Tonight a friend of mine got Spikeshot of Doom<BR>nice bow...level 30 requirement...<BR><BR>stats are<BR><BR>9int<BR>8agi<BR>10str<BR>10wis<BR>58health<BR>50power<BR><BR>Slot: Ranged<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Whats so interesting about it? Are we all supposed to look at that and suddenly get jealous and agreee.. Oh oh.. I want that item, its so unfair someone else can use it and I can't... Waaaaa. Get a clue, some classes were balanced with having such an item equiped in mind, others weren't. Get over it.</P>

[Iseabeil]

<DIV>i can well agree that mages and healers can be well balanced without a ranged item, as none of the classes in the archetype has it.</DIV> <DIV>the problem i see are the <EM>crusaders</EM>.</DIV> <DIV>they are to be balanced vs the other tanks, but they use pretty much same stuff as guardians/berserkers MINUS that one slot. i dun play any tank class, so really dun care, that part is an imbalance to me tho.</DIV>

[Miral]

<DIV>yeah but then again crusaders get horses =P</DIV>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<DIV>maybe its because I played to much D&D based rules (starting with the origginal PnP game box) and read too much fantasy books...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>.....but a priest not able to throw hammers (while hes wielding even 2-handed hammers!) or using a f*cking sling?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>my point is still valid despite that private flame war going on for the last posts about *balance*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont want a stat-adder, but having <EM>any</EM> kind of ranged weapon is not to much to ask -or is it?</DIV>

[Crono1321]

<blockquote><hr>Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<DIV>2 copper from a just-became-<FONT color=#99ff00>Te</FONT><FONT color=#99ff00>mplar</FONT>:</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>So <FONT color=#99ff00>I can wear plate armor </FONT>which is why I took this class, makes both soloing and being main-healer easier - and I LOVE the EQ2 plate design.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>When it comes to shields<FONT color=#99ff00> I can still use nothing better than bucklers which I allready could at lvl 1(!) </FONT>and I dont understand why. Leave Tower and Kite to the fighters but at least a round shield would have been logical as part of the combat training that enables my class to wear plate. BUT I can live with that and tell myself <FONT color=#ff9900>"Gesture-casting even with a smallest of shields shield is unrealistic enough so shut up</FONT> and be thankfull to wield a buckler which gives 80 AC at your lvl allready!"</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>But I am not allowed to throw hammers either which would be/look/feel really cool AND the classic cleric ranged weapon of all time - the sling - is still not invented.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV><FONT color=#99ff00>I dont care about a stat-adder in my ranged slot</FONT>, but I do care about using SOME kind of ranged weapon <STRONG>AND</STRONG> having an inventory slot that will NEVER be put to any use.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>sorry for the rant but I feel quite silly when the vendors tell me despite my mixture of leather, chain and plate armor: <FONT color=#ff9900>"Sorry young Templar, but you are either to dumb or to clumsy for throwing hammers like all of your class are. I have to admit although that our outfitters are also to dumb and clumsy to craft a simple sling..."</FONT></DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><hr></blockquote>Don't worry, pretty soon that plate armor will become useless as your defense doesn't rise enough to keep it going. My 34swash has much higher defense than my friend who is a 35templar.

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crono1321 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<BR> <DIV>2 copper from a just-became-<FONT color=#99ff00>Te</FONT><FONT color=#99ff00>mplar</FONT>:</DIV> <DIV>So <FONT color=#99ff00>I can wear plate armor </FONT>which is why I took this class, makes both soloing and being main-healer easier - and I LOVE the EQ2 plate design.</DIV> <DIV>When it comes to shields<FONT color=#99ff00> I can still use nothing better than bucklers which I allready could at lvl 1(!) </FONT>and I dont understand why. Leave Tower and Kite to the fighters but at least a round shield would have been logical as part of the combat training that enables my class to wear plate. BUT I can live with that and tell myself <FONT color=#ff9900>"Gesture-casting even with a smallest of shields shield is unrealistic enough so shut up</FONT> and be thankfull to wield a buckler which gives 80 AC at your lvl allready!"</DIV> <DIV>But I am not allowed to throw hammers either which would be/look/feel really cool AND the classic cleric ranged weapon of all time - the sling - is still not invented.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff00>I dont care about a stat-adder in my ranged slot</FONT>, but I do care about using SOME kind of ranged weapon <STRONG>AND</STRONG> having an inventory slot that will NEVER be put to any use.</DIV> <DIV>sorry for the rant but I feel quite silly when the vendors tell me despite my mixture of leather, chain and plate armor: <FONT color=#ff9900>"Sorry young Templar, but you are either to dumb or to clumsy for throwing hammers like all of your class are. I have to admit although that our outfitters are also to dumb and clumsy to craft a simple sling..."</FONT></DIV> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>Don't worry, pretty soon that plate armor will become useless as your defense doesn't rise enough to keep it going. My 34swash has much higher defense than my friend who is a 35templar.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I guess that is a reason why....well.....I shouldn't worry about ranged weapons?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>well.....erm...thanks for...................erm.....whatever you had in mind to tell me....</DIV>

[Melamp]

<blockquote><hr>Kwoung wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Melampus wrote:<BR>Interesting...<BR><BR>Tonight a friend of mine got Spikeshot of Doom<BR>nice bow...level 30 requirement...<BR><BR>stats are<BR><BR>9int<BR>8agi<BR>10str<BR>10wis<BR>58health<BR>50power<BR><BR>Slot: Ranged<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Whats so interesting about it? Are we all supposed to look at that and suddenly get jealous and agreee.. Oh oh.. I want that item, its so unfair someone else can use it and I can't... Waaaaa. Get a clue, some classes were balanced with having such an item equiped in mind, others weren't. Get over it.</P><hr></blockquote>Kwoung the classes aren't balanced yet...that's why they are still fixing spells..abilities...mitiagtion...ppl like you ruin the boards...you sit on them proclaiming you know so much about the game, even the ends and outs of every class..on any post you don't like you put your two cents in.Why don't you go play your character..get him past lvl 25 or so and out of the peat bog...then come back and post something informative...and before posting about what other classes do/need...play those classes, don't assume you know jack [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] about them

[CerraWhisperwind]

<blockquote><hr>Melampus wrote:<blockquote><hr>Kwoung wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Melampus wrote:<BR>Interesting...<BR><BR>Tonight a friend of mine got Spikeshot of Doom<BR>nice bow...level 30 requirement...<BR><BR>stats are<BR><BR>9int<BR>8agi<BR>10str<BR>10wis<BR>58health<BR>50power<BR><BR>Slot: Ranged<BR><HR></blockquote><DIV></div><P>Whats so interesting about it? Are we all supposed to look at that and suddenly get jealous and agreee.. Oh oh.. I want that item, its so unfair someone else can use it and I can't... Waaaaa. Get a clue, some classes were balanced with having such an item equiped in mind, others weren't. Get over it.</p><hr></blockquote>Kwoung the classes aren't balanced yet...that's why they are still fixing spells..abilities...mitiagtion...ppl like you ruin the boards...you sit on them proclaiming you know so much about the game, even the ends and outs of every class..on any post you don't like you put your two cents in.Why don't you go play your character..get him past lvl 25 or so and out of the peat bog...then come back and post something informative...and before posting about what other classes do/need...play those classes, don't assume you know jack [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] about them<hr></blockquote>Actually I thought it was all the whiners that ruined the boards. All the ME ME ME people that don't care about game balance they just want a cookie for themselves. Its especially bad because new people come to these forums and see all the other people whining for their cookie so they think they have to as well.If everyone got what they wanted on these forums the game would be so boring nobody would play. This is the reality that the developers know and why they don't give in to everyone. The people that quit because they didn't get their cookie are a fraction of the people that would quit if the game was reduced to one class and easy soloable mobs that raise no challenge but drop uber loot. People need to get over the class envy, classes are different for a reason. If you don't like yours, reroll.

[SunT]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CerraWhisperwind wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Melampus wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kwoung wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Melampus wrote:<BR>Interesting...<BR><BR>Tonight a friend of mine got Spikeshot of Doom<BR>nice bow...level 30 requirement...<BR><BR>stats are<BR><BR>9int<BR>8agi<BR>10str<BR>10wis<BR>58health<BR>50power<BR><BR>Slot: Ranged<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Whats so interesting about it? Are we all supposed to look at that and suddenly get jealous and agreee.. Oh oh.. I want that item, its so unfair someone else can use it and I can't... Waaaaa. Get a clue, some classes were balanced with having such an item equiped in mind, others weren't. Get over it.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>Kwoung the classes aren't balanced yet...that's why they are still fixing spells..abilities...mitiagtion...<BR><BR>ppl like you ruin the boards...you sit on them proclaiming you know so much about the game, even the ends and outs of every class..on any post you don't like you put your two cents in.<BR><BR>Why don't you go play your character..get him past lvl 25 or so and out of the peat bog...then come back and post something informative...and before posting about what other classes do/need...play those classes, don't assume you know jack [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] about them<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>Actually I thought it was all the whiners that ruined the boards. All the ME ME ME people that don't care about game balance they just want a cookie for themselves. Its especially bad because new people come to these forums and see all the other people whining for their cookie so they think they have to as well.<BR><BR>If everyone got what they wanted on these forums the game would be so boring nobody would play. This is the reality that the developers know and why they don't give in to everyone. The people that quit because they didn't get their cookie are a fraction of the people that would quit if the game was reduced to one class and easy soloable mobs that raise no challenge but drop uber loot. People need to get over the class envy, classes are different for a reason. If you don't like yours, reroll.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Or it is those who come to the boards and make a counter argument that has no merit just to keep an imbalance in the game as long as it is in thier favor...</P> <P>What class are you again CerraWhisperwind?</P> <P>The above posted Bow stats will turn the stat table on any class.  If you cannot see that then you are blind or a liar.  It is blatently obvious that the stat difference is already vrey large in the forties and will continue to be more of an issue as this game progresses.</P> <P>So the real point is exactly what I posted in the beginning of the string.  </P> <P>What do the developers think regarding the dif number of equippable item slots?  What if anything is planned to fix this imbalance if it is in fact percieved as this?  If it is not, will there be a cap on the stat bonus given to other classes or will they go Uber like in EQ1?  I would like to know this now becasue it will dramatically affect late game play.  The stats on highend play items as demonstrated above are far to significant to be overlooked.  </P> <P>The rest of the drivel on this string is fast becoming a flame string.  If you cannot make a coherent point then please keep your opinions to yourself.  The post is directed at developers not whiners.</P>

[CerraWhisperwind]

What class am I? Hmm, I thought I was human. What class do I PLAY? Let me list:DirgeWardenDefilerIllusionistSo in that list I have 3 that don't have ranged items and one that does. Hmm, guess I am biased, huh?Sure the bow is nice for any class that can use it. My Dirge would snap it up in an instant. My other characters can't use it so I could care less about it when I play them. My other characters don't NEED it. My warden solos SO much better than my Dirge, my defiler solos well as well, and my Illusionist has enough mana regen and hardly ever is in melee to loose many hp so doesn't need it either. In a non solo situation that bow will make almost nill difference. Stats don't matter nearly so much as your class and level. 100 power? Oh, thats 1 maybe 2 more spells... Stats don't matter nearly enough to worry about it.

[SunT]

<DIV>"Stats don't matter nearly enough to worry about it. "</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>9int<BR>8agi<BR>10str<BR>10wis<BR>58health<BR>50power</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>These stats do not matter?  These stats would not improve the playability of all of the listed classes?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This whole game is based around stats.  You need to read more.  Stats change power pools avoidance, saves, improve attacks, add HP.   If you can do something with less stats it stands to reason you can do more with more.  You chose a race based on the base stats it gave you in the first place.  Your class has certain inate abilities...stats are everything else.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The stats listed here are better than any of my two best slots added together.  This is an imbalance.  And will be a huge and insurmountable imbalance if this game gets legs like EQ1.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All classes should be able to equip the same number of items.  I am not saying that all classes should be able to use a bow.  But all should have somethign equipable.  This is how EQ1 was and for five years it did not create a problem.  I cannot see how it will create a problem here.  But I can see how the lack of available stats will create a large difference in some classes in late game.</DIV>

[CerraWhisperwind]

Yes, those stats do not matter. Percentage wise those stats add very very little. Having experimented with different stats, I noticed zero difference in my hunting ability.How much is less than 100 health or power going to save you at 30+ when mobs hit you for 100s and spells cost 50+ mana each? I have a song that raises my str dex and stamina by 19 each and I do not notice when I don't have it up. It makes very little difference.

[Melamp]

individually no stats matter enough to notice but collectively they all do.to the lvl 50 priest class that slot item, just looking at power, alone is 2.5% +/- of their TOTAL powerconsidering they lvled up to lvl 50 getting power along the way...plus they have 16 other slots giving them power.that one item makes a huge difference...10 wis...that's probably 6-7% of a lvl 50's wisdom....with 16 pieces of other gear,(hopefully some of it with wisdome) and putting training points into wisdom as wellthat one item makes a huge difference.

[SunT]

</FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CerraWhisperwind wrote:<BR>Yes, those stats do not matter. Percentage wise those stats add very very little. Having experimented with different stats, I noticed zero difference in my hunting ability.<BR><BR>How much is less than 100 health or power going to save you at 30+ when mobs hit you for 100s and spells cost 50+ mana each? I have a song that raises my str dex and stamina by 19 each and I do not notice when I don't have it up. It makes very little difference.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Man I wish I were you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You will save a TON of money letting your equipment grey out.  After all stats do not matter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In fact why don't you leave all of your slots empty.  That is a great idea.  You don't need no [Removed for Content] stats.  They are completely irrelevent to the game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am going to tank naked from now on.  I am sure the healer will not need any power.  They will be naked too so they can heal me twice a fight before oop.  But I won't need healed anyway because stats don't matter.  So the Mob can't hit me naked any better than if I have 5000 ac.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Man i feel totally liberated.  This is wonderful.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dev, can I have no equippable slots please.  I dont need any stats to perform.  So take all my gear.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In fact I don't even need to adventure.  Adventuring is done to aquire loot to buy or quest for better equipment, but since stats don't matter, I guess I can just hang out at the bar in Qeynos and drink Ale instead.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't need to craft jewelry anymore either.  It has no graphic and the stats don't matter so what is the point.  I am throwing away my work bench..woooot!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Man what a great game.  So much stress is lifted now that stats don't matter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No reason to get keyed, or to raid hard targets.   I don't need that loot.  It is irrelevant.  It only had better stats and stats don't matter!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well I am off to the Alehouse to drink some statfree Ale.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Stop on by, we can sit naked together and I will buy you an Ale...at the same time perhaps you can buy yourself 'a Clue.'</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[CerraWhisperwind]

AC matters, but str dex etc do not until you get a lot of it. Did I ever say empty slots? How silly can you be.The stats we were discussing did not include AC.

[SunT]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CerraWhisperwind wrote:<BR>AC matters, but str dex etc do not until you get a lot of it. Did I ever say empty slots? How silly can you be.<BR><BR>The stats we were discussing did not include AC.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I was illustrating the absurdity of your argument.</P><BR> <P>It is my understanding, and I am sure you will correct me if I am wrong, but Dex affects AC.  It helps you avoid getting hit and factors into your overall defense number.</P> <P>Str affects your attack.  And is a mulitiplier in many combat arts.  So it ultimately affects your DPS which is key to killing.</P> <P>Face it we need all the stats.  Your arguement does not hold water.</P> <P>It is an imbalance.  My guess is an oversight by SOE.  I offered a simple solution in another string.  I hope they address it.</P>

[Melamp]

<blockquote><hr>CerraWhisperwind wrote:AC matters, but str dex etc do not until you get a lot of it. <hr></blockquote>Not sure about everyone else but I try to get alot of stats by upgrading my gear...is there another way to do this, as these posts are making me wonder

[Bootstwadd]

<DIV>CerraWhisperwind wrote:  "AC matters, but str dex etc do not until <FONT color=#ff0000>you get a lot of it</FONT>. Did I ever say empty slots? How silly can you be.  The stats we were discussing did not include AC."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I believe THAT is exactly the point.  Tell me, would you EVER consider wearing accessories with no stats at all?  No?  Well, try it...take away all your accessories and all your bonus stats, then try and say stats don't matter.  How do you get a lot of these stats?  By equipping items with the bonuses that will most benefit your class...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BUT certain classes are being denied a slot which can add to their health pool, power pool, strength, int, wis...etc.,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not going to pretend or imagine that you don't realize there is a reason in this game certain people choose a certain race to play a certain class...the initial stat bonuses.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So for those of us who prefer to play what we want in the class we want...how can you make up areas where you are deficient?  Stat bonuses from gear.  The stats simply aren't random numbers, they affect your gameplay based on what class you choose to play...It's in the manual.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For me, as an SK it's Strength and Wisdom.</DIV> <DIV>For an Assassin It's Agility and Strength I believe (THIS is why the Scouts cried FOUL on the agility nerf).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So if you don't want or feel the need to equip anything in that range slot...that's fine!  That just means a player with the same armor, same spells, and same skill will more than likely (I haven't tested this theory) perform better than your toon...because they DID equip something in that slot...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just thought I'd throw that out there....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[CerraWhisperwind]

But one slot out of 15 or so is hardly worth worrying so much about. You still get 6 armor slots 6 jewelry slots and 2 weapon slots for stats. One more slot does not make much difference. I often use grey jewelry slot items because I don't bother to upgrade them as the upgrades are not better enough to be worth the expense or trouble. I also don't always use the +19 stat buff I have available for the same reason. One slot less is not hamstringing your effectiveness and there are MUCH more important issues to be delt with even assuming the developers agree that the classes are not balanced because of this.Take off your blinders and see the whole picture for once. The game does not revolve around you and what you want.EDIT - I do use jewelry I find with no stats if the AC is better. I have done this several times.<p>Message Edited by CerraWhisperwind on <span class=date_text>03-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:12 PM</span>

[Melamp]

[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]?You don't upgrade gear because of the trouble/expense...yet you chastise others for wanting to upgrade.claiming a few hp/stats/power doesn't matterclaiming one slot doesn't matter..when does it matterIf i had 8 slots more than you...would it matter?not buffing yourself, and getting lvl appropriate gear shows me how much you know about this game

[JarredDarque]

<DIV>Ok,  that ranged slot  right now I am a 36 pally,  with a natural 98 STR,  that bow,  or even a Tier 2 bow,  would give me a 25%-50% increase in DPS....nope,  dont matter,   it would also increase my HP and Power by over 200 points each,  that may not seem like alot,  but that 200 power points,  is either 1k damage I can do with my big nuke,  or almost 1200 hit points I can heal of my own.  but it doesnt matter does it?   Oh,  and in 60% xp,  that 200 power would equel over 2k hps as I have an opal to upgrade the new healing spell I am almost at.   I do believe that SOME form of item needs to be able to be placed into that slot.</DIV>

[CerraWhisperwind]

Not buffing myself and not getting level appropriate gear when I don't have to shows how much I do know about this game. Its people that think they absolutly must have the best gear that need to stop and try it with and without and see what little difference it makes. Do you just assume it makes a huge difference? Have you ever actually experimented with it? I have.

[CerraWhisperwind]

<blockquote><hr>JarredDarque wrote:<DIV>Ok, that ranged slot right now I am a 36 pally, with a natural 98 STR, that bow, or even a Tier 2 bow, would give me a 25%-50% increase in DPS....nope, dont matter, it would also increase my HP and Power by over 200 points each, that may not seem like alot, but that 200 power points, is either 1k damage I can do with my big nuke, or almost 1200 hit points I can heal of my own. but it doesnt matter does it? Oh, and in 60% xp, that 200 power would equel over 2k hps as I have an opal to upgrade the new healing spell I am almost at. I do believe that SOME form of item needs to be able to be placed into that slot.</div><hr></blockquote>25-50% increase in DPS for 10 strength? lol. 50 power plus 10 in your power stat = over 200 power? lol. Why not dream up even bigger numbers?<p>Message Edited by CerraWhisperwind on <span class=date_text>03-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:52 PM</span>

[Melamp]

<blockquote><hr>CerraWhisperwind wrote:Not buffing myself and not getting level appropriate gear when I don't have to shows how much I do know about this game. Its people that think they absolutly must have the best gear that need to stop and try it with and without and see what little difference it makes. Do you just assume it makes a huge difference? Have you ever actually experimented with it? I have.<hr></blockquote>What do you know about this game?You maybe know how to horde your money since you don't spend it.Why do I upgrade my gear..Pride for one...I don't want to be walking around lvl 50 looking like a hobo fresh of the boat from the isle of refuge.So when you fight and kill a mob, do you take of an item at a time and fight again and see if you win...then rinse and repeat till you're naked? then when you fight a harder mob to you put the gear back on one at a time...that's one hell of an experiment if you do....its [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] but if the shoe fits...

[JarredDarque]

<DIV>ok  I am at 98 STR  add ten  and I am over 100   you did KNOW that you get a melee DPS bonus at 100, 150 and 200 STR right?  [Removed for Content]</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>lemme see, ath shield,  plus 50 power and 50 health,   also adds ALOT of STR and WIS,  which each siginifigantly increase my power as STR and WIS are a crusaders main stats,  or are you unaware that increasing your two main stats increases power and health pools?   [Removed for Content]</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And you said that stats dont matter?   ALOT, as in over 20% of your power is based SOLELY off of your primary stats.  for me,  agian  STR and WIS.   [Removed for Content]</DIV>

[CerraWhisperwind]

<blockquote><hr>JarredDarque wrote:<DIV>ok I am at 98 STR add ten and I am over 100 you did KNOW that you get a melee DPS bonus at 100, 150 and 200 STR right? [Removed for Content]</div><DIV> </div><DIV>lemme see, ath shield, plus 50 power and 50 health, also adds ALOT of STR and WIS, which each siginifigantly increase my power as STR and WIS are a crusaders main stats, or are you unaware that increasing your two main stats increases power and health pools? [Removed for Content]</div><DIV> </div><DIV>And you said that stats dont matter? ALOT, as in over 20% of your power is based SOLELY off of your primary stats. for me, agian STR and WIS. [Removed for Content]</div><hr></blockquote>First off its a bow not a shield, shields don't go in the range slot last I knew. As far as it adding a lot (thats two words, not one, look it up) of strength and wisdom, I don't consider 10 each a lot when it is only 10% of your total. To give you the 200 power you were claiming before it would have to add 15 power per point of both strength and wisdom (when classes have two stats they each add half normal). As for your strength bonus at 100, its not like you suddenly get a huge increase for 1 point of strength from 99 to 100, its a gradual thing. Sure, 20% of your power is based on your stats, but 10 points of power stats is a drop in the bucket. If another class had oh say 5 more slots than you then it might be a cause for concern.As it is Paladins do very well and have no real need for more stats to operate as intended. Sure it would be nice, sure it would make a miniscule (that means small) difference, but you get along just fine without it.

[Melamp]

OUCH...breaking out grammar to point out flaws in an arguement."As it is Paladins do very well and have no real need for more stats to operate as intended. Sure it would be nice, sure it would make a miniscule (that means small) difference, but you get along just fine without it."Stupid...just plain stupid.I can solo any solo mob in the game..hands down.now, in your opinion...should I give my gear away? I must be terribly overpowered if I can take down a mob with gear and do it with out the use of stats from the range slot. These poor scouts must be humbled in my presence since they HAVE to get stats from that slot and I can solo without them...no matter how miniscule they may be.

[CerraWhisperwind]

The point, which some people are missing, is that the range slot does not make enough difference to get in a tizzy about. There are more important things to be fixed, and doing something like adding new items or changing the way old items work just so some people will stop feeling deprived over not having the same candy that everyone else has (trust me, every class has different candy) is a waste of time for the development team.If you have to have a range slot so badly, just make a character with one. The other classes don't have range weapons because they have other means to damage targets at range. The stats are superfluous.

[Melamp]

You just don't get the point...The rest of the ppl in this forum can't spell it out to you any more1) STATS MATTER...FOR ALL CLASSES2) EVERY STAT YOU GET ADDS UP3) HALF THE CLASSES DON'T GET A CHANCE TO ADD STATS BECAUSE THEY CAN'T EQUIPT RANGE ITEMSI agree devs have better things to do than this..this is important..but much less important than an adventure pack..much less important than adding holiday candles in the game.Maybe it takes ppl pointing out how thier oversight on the range items to get some attention to it.If a dev comes in and says that other classes can't function without the chance to get more stats in that slot while the other classes can function without those I think most of this board's readers will give a sharp "DOH!!!" and get over it...but until a dev says it's intentional and permanent then it's a cause of concern for many players.

[CerraWhisperwind]

"The rest of the people on these boards"? Since when did 2 or 3 people become "the rest"?I am not the only one who feels this way and has posted about it. Me and others like me are here to show the developers who read these forums that not every poster is a greedy ME ME ME person, and some of us like class diversity and challenge in our games. Some people would have us all playing the same class with different names, how boring that would be.

[Melamp]

<blockquote><hr>CerraWhisperwind wrote:"The rest of the people on these boards"? Since when did 2 or 3 people become "the rest"?I am not the only one who feels this way and has posted about it. Me and others like me are here to show the developers who read these forums that not every poster is a greedy ME ME ME person, and some of us like class diversity and challenge in our games. Some people would have us all playing the same class with different names, how boring that would be.<hr></blockquote>Some ppl don't get to lvl 20 and think they know everything about a game...those are the ones I would listen when it comes to balance.Maybe when you get done with AQ 6 you're be happy with your stats and stay with that gear till you're not so green in mmorpgs you should come back an express your views again

[CerraWhisperwind]

lol you have no idea what I have or have not done, what games I have played or for how long. Of course since anyone can make any claim on these boards I won't talk about how long ago I finished my armor quests. The point is not everyone agrees with your whine. I will leave it at that.

[Melamp]

<blockquote><hr>CerraWhisperwind wrote:lol you have no idea what I have or have not done, what games I have played or for how long. Of course since anyone can make any claim on these boards I won't talk about how long ago I finished my armor quests. The point is not everyone agrees with your whine. I will leave it at that.<hr></blockquote>It's not a whine..it's a statement of fact.Other games you've played don't matter this is eq2...you should have to earn your right to an oppinion here..not just give it on things you have no idea about

[CerraWhisperwind]

<blockquote><hr>Melampus wrote:<blockquote><hr>CerraWhisperwind wrote:lol you have no idea what I have or have not done, what games I have played or for how long. Of course since anyone can make any claim on these boards I won't talk about how long ago I finished my armor quests. The point is not everyone agrees with your whine. I will leave it at that.<hr></blockquote>It's not a whine..it's a statement of fact.Other games you've played don't matter this is eq2...you should have to earn your right to an oppinion here..not just give it on things you have no idea about<hr></blockquote>Exactly! So why don't you go earn your right to speak here? Perhaps by actually going out, like I did, and testing the effect of stats on characters? Try removing one piece of jewelry and seeing how much it affects your combat ability. You might be surprised.

[Melamp]

<blockquote><hr>CerraWhisperwind wrote:<blockquote>Exactly! So why don't you go earn your right to speak here? Perhaps by actually going out, like I did, and testing the effect of stats on characters? Try removing one piece of jewelry and seeing how much it affects your combat ability. You might be surprised.<hr></blockquote>you're a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] idiot...stop killing beetles all day and go to a real zone...maybe your lvl will give some indication of how good of a player you are without all the fancy gear others have

[SunT]

<DIV>Arguing with Cerrawhisperwind is like arguing with my 6 year old about the relevance of Pi to mathmatics.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My six year old has little of No understanding of math beyond the most basic issues.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Perhaps when she gets a little older, has a little more experience she will begin to understand.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Until then there is no point in arguing with her.</DIV>

[CerraWhisperwind]

<blockquote><hr>SunTsu wrote:<DIV>Arguing with Cerrawhisperwind is like arguing with my 6 year old about the relevance of Pi to mathmatics.</div><DIV> </div><DIV>My six year old has little of No understanding of math beyond the most basic issues.</div><DIV> </div><DIV>Perhaps when she gets a little older, has a little more experience she will begin to understand.</div><DIV> </div><DIV>Until then there is no point in arguing with her.</div><hr></blockquote>You understand how I feel when trying to get a simple point across. Why don't you actually go try what I said? Afraid I will be right?

[Melamp]

I did...when i started the game..I was given a shirt and a club...apparently they didn't want me to use hand to hand combat which I should have tried. I was out killing goblins and spiders that were white..even some yellow.Seeing that I could kill white and yellows in a shirt and club almost 4 months ago..imagine what I could do now with the gear I have..they need to put in lvl 70 mobs so I can test your theory out..I can kill white yellows with a club..but silly me earned gear which must completely unbalance the game since it can be done naked.

[slard2]

Anyone who is saying that one class is or is not balaned due to one slot, obviously is confused. While it is true that one slot may not add a lot to a character (although depending on the item, this is not guaranteed) the collection of all items obviously makes an immense difference.I went down my guild roster and looked at every character who had station.com set up so I could look at their items. This is what I found:Keep in mind that we're a high-level raiding guild. So just look at the profiles and make the judgment for yourself.---Level 50 Guardian:Off-HandShort Sword of the Ykesha+5 int, +10 agi, +5 str, +35 health, +35powerRangedPristined Conditioned Cedar Short Bow+5 int, +11 agi, +8 str, +6 wis, +52 health, +50 power---Level 50 Ranger:Off-handDarkcoil Fang Stiletto+13 agi, +17 str, +46 health, +45powerRangedCedarwood Long Bow+5 int, +6 agi, +7 str, +42 health, +6 wis, +48 power---Level 50 TemplarOff-handPristined Conditioned Cedar Buckler+8 int, +34 health, +12 wis, +34 powerRangedNONE USABLE---Level 50 FuryOff-handPristined Conditioned Cedar Buckler+8 int, +34 health, +12 wis, +34 powerRangedNONE USABLE---Level 50 InquisitorOff-handPristined Conditioned Cedar Buckler+8 int, +34 health, +12 wis, +34 powerRangedNONE USABLE---Level 50 AssassinOff-handSharpened Fossil Dagger+6 agi, +10 str, +29 health, +31 powerRangedPristine Conditioned Cedar Long Bow+6 int, +8 agi, +7 str, +57 health, +9 wis, +46 power---Level 50 Wizard (ME)Off-handStein of Mogguk+14 int, +8 agi, +36 health, +36 powerRangedNONE USABLE---So explain to me again how the off-hand slots balance the range slots? Oh. They don't. It seems that people who can use both, have pretty nice items in BOTH. Some people can't have an item in one of those slots. So you're also telling me that during some raid, a bada$$ range slot item isn't going to drop? And that those Bada$$ range slot items should only ever be available to one set of classes? C'mon.Look at the profiles. Look at the items that people have in each slot. Just as for every other slot, there are items that each class can have that are good for that class. Except for the ranged slot. Only certain people can have those. If they weren't statted, it wouldn't be a huge deal... obviously a wizard shouldn't be able to use a bow. But should a wizard be able to use some weird, magic, item that has some stats? Seems reasonable.Just to make it painfully clear: I'm not saying that range slot items for melee classes shouldn't be statted. I'm saying that some should be available for the other classes as well even if they aren't weapons.-rastaoun50 wizAscendance - www.ascendanceguild.comNeriak Server<p>Message Edited by slard271 on <span class=date_text>03-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:45 AM</span>

[Melamp]

Woot, someone with some sense...and he happens to be from the same server <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[SunT]

<DIV>Great info Thanks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now amplify that by five expansions over the next three years.  It will be an insurmountable stat deviation.</DIV>

[CerraWhisperwind]

You keep focusing on the one slot you do not have (out of 15). The fact that some classes have the potential to have 7% more bonus stats than other classes (which equates to maybe 1% more combat effectiveness) is nothing. The fact is you don't need that 1% to be effective. Are those with the ranged slots performing better in terms of combat than those without? No, as a matter of fact most of those without the slot perform better than the ones with the slot, because of other aspects of their class. If anything, the clerics and mages and paladins are overpowered compared to the rest.Get real, who is going to buff these classes when they don't need it? Only those with tunnel vision think they need buffing.IF, down the road with the expansions, the gap becomes big enough that the non-ranged slot classes start consistantly performing under the ranged slot classes because of the ranged slot, then it might be addressed. Even so, it might not be addressed in the way you want.One thing I do know is this thread has degenerated to the point that I highly doubt any developers are reading it. THATS the way you get your point accross, with insults instead of reason. Bravo! /sarcasm

[Melamp]

<blockquote><hr>CerraWhisperwind wrote:You keep focusing on the one slot you do not have (out of 15). The fact that some classes have the potential to have 7% more bonus stats than other classes (which equates to maybe 1% more combat effectiveness) is nothing. The fact is you don't need that 1% to be effective. Are those with the ranged slots performing better in terms of combat than those without? No, as a matter of fact most of those without the slot perform better than the ones with the slot, because of other aspects of their class. If anything, the clerics and mages and paladins are overpowered compared to the rest.Get real, who is going to buff these classes when they don't need it? Only those with tunnel vision think they need buffing.IF, down the road with the expansions, the gap becomes big enough that the non-ranged slot classes start consistantly performing under the ranged slot classes because of the ranged slot, then it might be addressed. Even so, it might not be addressed in the way you want.One thing I do know is this thread has degenerated to the point that I highly doubt any developers are reading it. THATS the way you get your point accross, with insults instead of reason. Bravo! /sarcasm<hr></blockquote>I really don't know what experience you have with mmorpgs to be saying this.7% more stats only equals 1% better in combat!!! thats crazy...player skill as alot to do with it...but you put a decent player that has had crappy gear for 2 years in the seat of the same class that has top of the line and you will see that player being twices as good.EQ1 example again..some 65 cleric have about 5000 mana..they do a really good job at what they do...the really really high end clerics have about 9000 mana...is that only a 12% better increase...no...it's an incredible increase in what that person can do over the other.Who is going to buff??If I had a tank on a raid that had superb gear and hat 10000hp...you know what..I'd still give him HP buffs...cause you never know when a heal might be late...a mob does a big special move or something

[CerraWhisperwind]

Once again, go out and test it. Stats do not make much difference in combat effectiveness. I have tried it just to see. As far as my 1% for 7% goes, you don't get a 1 to 1 ratio of calculated characteristics to base characteristics. It takes several points of agility for instance to raise your AC one point. This is on top of your base AC for your class level and armor, so the majority of your AC does not come from stats, only a fraction. This means that adding 10% more agility will not add 10% more AC, but a fraction of that 10%.

[Melamp]

But what you are saying is stats by them selves right....okI understand that.Look at that cedar bow for example..look just at hp/mana....now as a priest I can get a cedar sheild...but the stats are the same.it's not like that slot is constantly being filled with an item that resembles crafted jewelry..it's being field with items that have better stats/hp/mana than most breastplates/legs/arms or any other piece of gear.if all bows in the game gave only 1-3 stats and 5-10 hp mana...it wouldn't cause MUCH of a stir as you would be corect that those miniscule amount of extra stats that slot gives doesn't add much to the overall picture.but these high end bows add better stats than most ppl can find in anyother piece of gear in the game..the ones they can equipt

[JarredDarque]

<DIV>It does not take several poinmts of agility to raise defense (AC) one number,  or at least not for a paladin,  1 AGI will raise AC a few points.   WHY?  becuase your a mage,  you dont need agility,  just like if I increase me intelegence,  I will see virtually NO increase in HP, Power, AC, or Attack rating, why  because THAT is the one stat I dont need.   the otehrs,  STA, STR, WIS, AGI, are all very important to my class,  and by lowering them even slightly, there is a big differance.   again, as  a caster,  if you lower you Agi to -50 where you purposely MOVe to intercept an attack,  you will see virtually no differance.  but try dropping your INT down a a dozen points,  if you say that you dont see a differance, then go fight a real mob and try it again.  They differance is there,  and it is signifigant.</DIV>

[CerraWhisperwind]

How common are these uber bows? One thing that also comes to mind is perhaps there are better jewelery and armor stats in the works for the future. The high end is still being worked on. Perhaps the ranged items need to have their stats lowered as well to be in line with other stat items. I agree if the ranged slot items have consistantly higher stats than any other slot then it might need looking at, but with an eye to bringing it back down to the rest of the items in the world.I have a feeling that there will also be very good mage/priest only icons/books etc that outstrip any other stat item, as you are giving up AC or weapon damage to wield it. If they did this then allowing someone to use two of them would be unfair in the other direction.

[CerraWhisperwind]

<blockquote><hr>JarredDarque wrote:<DIV>It does not take several poinmts of agility to raise defense (AC) one number, or at least not for a paladin, 1 AGI will raise AC a few points. WHY? becuase your a mage, you dont need agility, just like if I increase me intelegence, I will see virtually NO increase in HP, Power, AC, or Attack rating, why because THAT is the one stat I dont need. the otehrs, STA, STR, WIS, AGI, are all very important to my class, and by lowering them even slightly, there is a big differance. again, as a caster, if you lower you Agi to -50 where you purposely MOVe to intercept an attack, you will see virtually no differance. but try dropping your INT down a a dozen points, if you say that you dont see a differance, then go fight a real mob and try it again. They differance is there, and it is signifigant.</div><hr></blockquote>As a scout, raising my agility by 26 points netted me +16 AC, about a 2 to 1 ratio. It also gave me 44 more power. As you can see, this is my 'primary' stat. It does not give a 1:1 ratio for AC and not even a 2:1 ratio for power. I did this test using a buff that only added agi str and stamina. Would you post your numbers for comparison? Be carefull to account for jewelry AC if you are changing jewelry around.

[Melamp]

As rastoun was pointing out...most of the high enough ppl in his guild have them...most of the ppl in my guild have them, I myself have 2 extra cedar in the bank incase anyone in my guild needed them.those do not drop...those are player made..

[CerraWhisperwind]

Aren't they a rare wood bow though? Can you compare them to a rare Gem/metal jewelery?

[slard2]

<DIV>It doesn't matter if they're player made.  Similar bows drop from mobs that are of similar stats.  It also doesn't matter if you compare them to jewelery made from rare stones.  If you make a rare ring (necklace, whatever) out of a ruby, everyone can wear it who meets the level requirement.  Even if the stats on those rare rings (necklaces, whatever) are geared more towards casters, everyone can still wear it and some melee classes would still benefit highly from it (bards come to mind).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also don't see, Cerra, how you seem to imply that the stats on other gear from other slots seems to make up for the lack of a ranged item.  I honestly don't see a consistent pattern of caster/healer gear being better and thus balancing the lack of a statted range item.  (Personally, and you can say I'm biased, I think there is a serious lack of caster gear in the game in general, at least at high levels.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Caster / healer secondaries just don't make up for the stats that others can get in their ranged slot.  My secondary is the Stein of Mogguk.  You can see the stats up there.  +14 int, +8 agi, +36 power, +36 health.  No doubt, it's a nice item.  It is clear that all other classes have comparable secondary items.  You can also see, however, that the ranged items of those that can use them are not trivial.  An item that gives +46 power (plus other stats!) is simply not trivial.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You also keep bringing up an argument that a single item (and its stats) has little if any effect in combat.  I disagree entirely.  A single item with 10str, for example, can mean a boatload of extra damage over time in a single battle.  Just as the +14 int on my Stein gives me a total of 65 more power (+36 power, for a total of 101).  That's a lot of power for one item.  Can you not imagine a battle where a healer having one more heal left in their power pool turns the tide of the whole situation?  I certainly can.  Or where one more taunt from a drained fighter saves everyone?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The fact of the matter is that every item does make a difference.  And although while individually they may not always be noticeable (and certainly, sometimes they are) the collective makes a big difference.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Classes who are unable to equip a statted range-slot item are at a disadvantage in that regard.  Plain and simple.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-rastaoun</DIV> <DIV>50 wiz</DIV> <DIV>Ascendance - <A href="http://www.ascendanceguild.com" target=_blank>www.ascendanceguild.com</A></DIV> <DIV>Neriak Server</DIV>

[Radulank]

<blockquote><hr>CerraWhisperwind wrote:<blockquote><hr>JarredDarque wrote:<DIV>It does not take several poinmts of agility to raise defense (AC) one number, or at least not for a paladin, 1 AGI will raise AC a few points. WHY? becuase your a mage, you dont need agility, just like if I increase me intelegence, I will see virtually NO increase in HP, Power, AC, or Attack rating, why because THAT is the one stat I dont need. the otehrs, STA, STR, WIS, AGI, are all very important to my class, and by lowering them even slightly, there is a big differance. again, as a caster, if you lower you Agi to -50 where you purposely MOVe to intercept an attack, you will see virtually no differance. but try dropping your INT down a a dozen points, if you say that you dont see a differance, then go fight a real mob and try it again. They differance is there, and it is signifigant.</div><hr></blockquote>As a scout, raising my agility by 26 points netted me +16 AC, about a 2 to 1 ratio. It also gave me 44 more power. As you can see, this is my 'primary' stat. It does not give a 1:1 ratio for AC and not even a 2:1 ratio for power. I did this test using a buff that only added agi str and stamina. Would you post your numbers for comparison? Be carefull to account for jewelry AC if you are changing jewelry around.<hr></blockquote>26 Agility gave you 16AC? man, you are getting screwed. My 28 SK got +4 Agi and it upped my ac by over 100. But hey stats don't matter, that is why we get bonus stats when we lvl. Or have you not pushed the "+" in the bottom right....Really i shouldn't have bothered. After all Shadowknights and Pallys are balanced. The whole game is ballanced according to you, so why are we having a patch next week?

[CerraWhisperwind]

100 AC from 4 agility? Who are you trying to kid? If you are going to lie, at least make them believable. Or did you level up and get 4 agility and 100 AC and think the AC was just from the agility? lol. Perhaps you put on a 98 AC jewelery item with 4 agility and said WOW 100 more AC!Relatively low stat changes do not matter. I bet people who don't believe me still havn't tested it. They just look at the numbers and insist it HAS to matter, when in actual gameplay it does not.In a level based system, stats cannot have much of an effect because if they did people with too much would be killing things too far above their level. Look at how they had to change the way high amounts of strength work? It takes 100s of points of stats to seriously impact your gameplay. 10 will make a difference so small you won't even notice it. 100 points of power will give you enough to do 1 or 2 spells. While this would sometimes make a difference, most of the time it will not.Once again, if you don't beleive me, go try it. Fight some monsters, take off one piece of jewelery, and fight the same monsters again. Better yet, because jewelery has AC and range weapons do not, remove a stat buff between fights with around 10 points of stats. Heck, I notice very little difference when I drop my 26 point multi stat buff. I can still kill the same mobs I could before in the same amount of time.

[CerraWhisperwind]

<blockquote><hr>slard271 wrote:<DIV>It doesn't matter if they're player made. Similar bows drop from mobs that are of similar stats. It also doesn't matter if you compare them to jewelery made from rare stones. </div><hr></blockquote>I was addressing this concern: "it's not like that slot is constantly being filled with an item that resembles crafted jewelry..it's being field with items that have better stats/hp/mana than most breastplates/legs/arms or any other piece of gear."I was asking if other player crafted rare items had similar stats. He was implying that they did not.If bows are so much better than any other item, it sounds like they need to be nerfed. Good Idea.

[JarredDarque]

<DIV>ok  you can go check out my char inventory on eq2players.com    but let me give you some examples</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>NORMAL STATS all euipped:</DIV> <DIV>HP 2453</DIV> <DIV>mana 1408</DIV> <DIV>att  563</DIV> <DIV>AC  4787</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Glowing Balck Stone</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>+8 int   +8 wis    +16 health   +40 power, +168 vs disease   +336 vs magic,  AC  48</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if removed</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ac drops to 4739 (as is obvious)   power to 1359   (1408-40 power = 1368...so where did I get that 9 power?  oh..  +8 wis = +9 power for me)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>fishbone earring</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>+8 STA, +8 AGI  +31 health  +25 power,  +202 disease   +134 divine   +168 magic, AC 48</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if removed</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AC drops to 4687  (100 POINTS!?!?!  OMG!  but it says only 48 AC,  guess that other 52 came from   +8 AGI or +8 STA, or both)   power to 1382  (gues I am getting an extra power point from somewhere.)   helath goes to 2364  (2453-2364 = 89-31 = 58 extra health...amazing...from +8 STA or +8 AGI)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I could go on,  but I am gong to bed,  regardless  the large AC change,  is ALL from the agility, wheras the HP change is from the stamina.   (I have peices that are say  STA and STR,   or AGI and WIS,  and I am able to use DEDUCTIVE REASONING to figure out which stat does what to what amount,  regardless to say,  it adds up.....alot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BTW also I only have 2 STR jewelry peices,  and they add to my attack rating at a 2:1  (1 attack rating for every two STR,   but that is before I hit 100 STR,  which as the devs HAVE STATED is a bonus!  even after the STR nerf,  or do you not read the patch notes for [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] that GOES ONTO THE SERVER YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO BE TESTING????)</DIV>

[CerraWhisperwind]

You obviously have no idea how to read patch notes."- The damage bonus given by extremely high amounts of strength has been reduced. For example, having a strength of 400 previously gave a 200% damage bonus; after this change, the damage bonus is 155%. There is no change to the damage bonus at a STR of 100, and only a slight reduction at 200 STR."This does not mean you get some super bonus for reaching 100 or 200. This means that you get a bonus per point of strength up to 100 and then slightly reduced one as it reaches 200 getting smaller per point until it reaches the cap (if any). Previously 400 str gave 200% damage bonus, now its 155%. This does not mean you needed 400 str exactly to get any bonus, 399 would have been 199% or so damage bonus. Strength bonus used to be linear, now it starts growing at a slower rate as it gets higher.As far as the fish bone earring it sounds bugged to me if it is giving you 100 AC with 48 ac and 8 agility. Have you tested other agility items or buffs? 52 AC for 8 agility at level 35 is a bit much, it is probably misreporting the stats which has happened before.

[Iseabeil]

<DIV>as a templar my Protectorate spell at adept1 atm gives a plus of 22 on strength and wisdom.</DIV> <DIV>my power without it on is 855, with it i get 909. Caulria's Symbol of Vitae costs me 74 power and will heal target for a total of 588 as well as increase AC. have ye any idea how many times that little extra power has saved my group from total wipe? any small extras of power can mean the difference between success and failure.</DIV>

[Ibis]

the AC given by shields is pure avoidance. you already have an edge on shamans and druids in mitigation from plate armor, it doesnt need to be compounded with greater avoidance. i agree clerics would look cooler with round shields, and perhaps that should be factored into the class. but as it is now if they ever decide to split up the stats given by different shield types, you'd be better suited to stick with the priest shield type. i dont know if I, as a guardian, will be able to stand getting my +12wis / +12int on shields into the future. its simply not a potent addition to my character. the 806 avoidance ac is nice.

[SunT]

<DIV>My level 30 training gives me a 15 Agi buf for a short duration.  When I got it at 30 it gave me roughly 80ac.  Now at 36 it gives me 107.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So the agil improves the AC and how much AC it gives per 1 agil point scales per level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Eneg]

When good threads go bad... <img src="/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />The extra slot at THIS point in time does not make the the game unplayable. It would be nice to have, but it isn't a [Removed for Content].The problem, and I think people who have not had eq1 experience dont realize, is that this handicap will exponentially increase with each expansion.I'm sorry.. stats do matter in this game, a solid argument could be made that stats are ALL that matter. Perhaps this is not evident to some people, but it will become evident as you near endgame. That's why we kill and loot and kill some more.. to get items.. better items.. with better STATS. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />It would be nice for some feeback from someone "in the know", but I doubt a dev will touch this thread with a 10 foot pole now.

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<DIV>I just hope that the (obviously) long lost art of crafting a sling will be rediscovered.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Because i take a lot - but I havent choosen to play a Fantasy RPG with a pseudeo-mediavel setting  to have a dev explaining to me: <FONT color=#99ff00>"Slings ARE both a waepon used for ages AND a fantasy cliche for priests - we KNOW...... BUT for BALANCES SAKE there will be none in EQ2!"</FONT></DIV>

[Kwoung]

<DIV>So let me see if I have this right so far....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pro Ranged slot item folks are arguing that all classes that have access to range slot items are balanced and all classes that do not, aren't. That by allowing the classes that are currently restricted from using this slot to have items to use there, they will be come balanced.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Con Ranged slot folks say this isn't true, that some classes that do have access to this slot are not necessarilly working corrctly, and some classes that do not have access to this slot are working as advertised.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Does that about sum it up?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also read here (a lot), that many folks feel that if a range slot item drops while on a raid, that everyone should have a shot at it. This left me wondering, what about all the other items that drop that not everyone can us? As a wizard, I have seen some pretty nice swords, shields, light and above armour, etc... drop, by the arguement that all characters should be able to use the range slot drops equally, shouldn't that carry across the entire range of equipment and allow anyone to use anything that drops? I know my Wizard could definately make good use of some heavy armour, I get my backside handed to me when a mob starts hitting me and if everyone can use the ranged items that drop, I see no reason why we shouldn't all be able to have equal access to all items, why limit it just to just the ranged items?</DIV>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kwoung wrote:<BR> <DIV>So let me see if I have this right so far....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pro Ranged slot item folks are arguing that all classes that have access to range slot items are balanced and all classes that do not, aren't. That by allowing the classes that are currently restricted from using this slot to have items to use there, they will be come balanced.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Con Ranged slot folks say this isn't true, that some classes that do have access to this slot are not necessarilly working corrctly, and some classes that do not have access to this slot are working as advertised.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Does that about sum it up?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also read here (a lot), that many folks feel that if a range slot item drops while on a raid, that everyone should have a shot at it. This left me wondering, what about all the other items that drop that not everyone can us? As a wizard, I have seen some pretty nice swords, shields, light and above armour, etc... drop, by the arguement that all characters should be able to use the range slot drops equally, shouldn't that carry across the entire range of equipment and allow anyone to use anything that drops? I know my Wizard could definately make good use of some heavy armour, I get my backside handed to me when a mob starts hitting me and if everyone can use the ranged items that drop, I see no reason why we shouldn't all be able to have equal access to all items, why limit it just to just the ranged items?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Regarding balance i cant argue with you (or a dev) but i feel cheated (especially as I am playing on an RPG server) that my hammer wielding templar has to watch others throwing hammers.</P> <P>When I realized that  thrown weopons where going to be coverd in much more detail than in EQ1 i allready had the picture of my hammer throwing priest in mind and even dreamed about some d&d style returning magical hammer.....it took me 6 weeks to realize I will NEVER be throwing hammers....not to mention there are no slings in EQ2</P> <P>/sighs clearly dissapointed<BR></P>

[SunT]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kwoung wrote:<BR> <DIV>So let me see if I have this right so far....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pro Ranged slot item folks are arguing that all classes that have access to range slot items are balanced and all classes that do not, aren't. That by allowing the classes that are currently restricted from using this slot to have items to use there, they will be come balanced.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Con Ranged slot folks say this isn't true, that some classes that do have access to this slot are not necessarilly working corrctly, and some classes that do not have access to this slot are working as advertised.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Does that about sum it up?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also read here (a lot), that many folks feel that if a range slot item drops while on a raid, that everyone should have a shot at it. This left me wondering, what about all the other items that drop that not everyone can us? As a wizard, I have seen some pretty nice swords, shields, light and above armour, etc... drop, by the arguement that all characters should be able to use the range slot drops equally, shouldn't that carry across the entire range of equipment and allow anyone to use anything that drops? I know my Wizard could definately make good use of some heavy armour, I get my backside handed to me when a mob starts hitting me and if everyone can use the ranged items that drop, I see no reason why we shouldn't all be able to have equal access to all items, why limit it just to just the ranged items?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>No one is asking for any New or Altered ability.  I as a Crusader am not asking to use a bow.  Nor is my illusionist asking to use Heavy armor.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We just want access to the same number of slots to fill as the other half of the classes for stat purposes only.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That is all.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Equal number of equippable items.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This could be solved by simply allowing the 'Symbol' classified items to be RANGE equippable and usable by ALL classes.  Bingo we are done.  Add more later if you wish but that one simple code change would fix this issue.</DIV>

[Iseabeil]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SunTsu wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kwoung wrote:<BR> <DIV>So let me see if I have this right so far....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pro Ranged slot item folks are arguing that all classes that have access to range slot items are balanced and all classes that do not, aren't. That by allowing the classes that are currently restricted from using this slot to have items to use there, they will be come balanced.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Con Ranged slot folks say this isn't true, that some classes that do have access to this slot are not necessarilly working corrctly, and some classes that do not have access to this slot are working as advertised.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Does that about sum it up?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also read here (a lot), that many folks feel that if a range slot item drops while on a raid, that everyone should have a shot at it. This left me wondering, what about all the other items that drop that not everyone can us? As a wizard, I have seen some pretty nice swords, shields, light and above armour, etc... drop, by the arguement that all characters should be able to use the range slot drops equally, shouldn't that carry across the entire range of equipment and allow anyone to use anything that drops? I know my Wizard could definately make good use of some heavy armour, I get my backside handed to me when a mob starts hitting me and if everyone can use the ranged items that drop, I see no reason why we shouldn't all be able to have equal access to all items, why limit it just to just the ranged items?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>No one is asking for any New or Altered ability.  I as a Crusader am not asking to use a bow.  Nor is my illusionist asking to use Heavy armor.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We just want access to the same number of slots to fill as the other half of the classes for stat purposes only.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That is all.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Equal number of equippable items.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This could be solved by simply allowing the 'Symbol' classified items to be RANGE equippable and usable by ALL classes.  Bingo we are done.  Add more later if you wish but that one simple code change would fix this issue.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>could add a nice holy symbol for crusaders that increases the range of their spells for some ridiculous low amount. tada, its now a ranged item <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Kwoung]

<DIV>Hmm.. thread bugged</DIV>

[Darqz]

<DIV>Sorry to add fuel to the fire here guys.  I play both a Shadow Knight and an Assassin.  As we all know there are issues with every class and tradeskill in the game.  I hardly ever see one post about people that are happy with the way things are going or with what they have.  The ones that I do I see get flamed or passed over with a "yeah what about skill/spell x that.....".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ranged items are nice to have for my Assassin.  Yes they do add stats and assist me to do damage.  I do wish I had them for my Shadow Knight.  Yes giving people stats is always going to be a nice thing and the added power does assist even if it is just a little.  I can see why some people can look at it as an unbalancing for the classes.  I can also look at it and see why people would want to have it to get that extra skil/spell off or to avoid that extra damage.  I can honestly say that the power does not even cover the cost of using my special attacks for the ranged weapons.  I can also say that the skills they give me help me only marginally if they ever do help.  For example I took a high agility bow.  I still get smacked like a red headed step child (sorry to those red headed step childs out there).  However life is not fair.  We need to look at it not only from a game/roleplay stand point but a players stand point.  In a roleplay/game stand point casters should never be running in there throwing hammers, knives, firing off bows, etc.  If your a healer and your sitting in the back throwing hammers for 10pts of damage instead of doing a nuke for 300 then your other crazy or not playing your class right.  Same thing with a mage class.  If your throwing instead of casting I would wonder what the hell you are doing.  Classes such as shadowknights and paladins.  This concept applies to you just because you fall under the old EQ1 livelyhood of hybrid.  Now this is just from a game/roleplay look.  As a developer you could write in code to allow you to use a totem/book/charm/idol/etc to be placed into the range slot and another one to be placed into the ammo slot.  This way a cleric can have that totem that gives it you that extra 10wis and 30 power.  It would be even better if crafters were allowed to make this for players.  It would be a nice thing for all of us, even those of us that can utilize the ranged slots right now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However what would end up happening?  I say this only as a player that has played EQ since Verant.  Casters will get that extra mana/hp/stats buffs and the classes would all be happy they could have that slot.  Then we would go about our happy way and be happy we got all our slots filled.  Of course you would have the posts of "the Totem of the great Nerf is unbalancing because it has 30 wisdom and mages power pools are out of wack" or "the totem of the great nerf has 30str but soe nerfed the str stat so what good is it?"  Eventually the developers would see this and one of two things would happen.  Other a power increase across the board to compensate or a stat decrease much like the great agility nerf would happen.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not saying that this would happen, but looking at EQ1 history and current EQ2 history it would not take long.  After all when it was found out that scouts could tank the agility was fixed and scouts soloing ability dropped to being the worst solo class in the game.  When people complained about damage Zerkers were reduced in thier dps.  I'm sorry if people don't see eye to eye with me on this.  This is soley my views and based off my experience.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My propose solution is this.  Give people that can't use the range slot at least a shot at using it.  Bows/ranged weapons and such should still remain off limits (Yeah this stinks saying it as an SK but I understand the reasoning for this).  Items such as totems/glyphs/what ever you want to call it should be allowed to be open to all classes.  If you would rather sacrifice your ranged bow/sling/bazooka (bad joke sorry) for a stat buff go right ahead.  As for adding AC to these items.  That should never happen.  If anything opening up a slot range should effect the delay on certain skills/spells.  This would go right along the same lines of as the bow.  Since if I were to use the bow I would have a delay on my damage.  If I wish to use a totem/book/charm in my range slot it would have delay that would effect certain skills.  Such as your range attack spells.  I know this would suck for mages so we could make it along the lines as effecting the mana convergence for mages.  You still get the stat bonuses but you have to give up something in return the same way bow classes have to.  This is just a thought and again I see why the developers did make the game like this to effect what they would consider balance.  However since it seems so many people feel strongly this would be at least my proposed solution.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Kwoung]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SunTsu wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>No one is asking for any New or Altered ability.  I as a Crusader am not asking to use a bow.  Nor is my illusionist asking to use Heavy armor.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We just want access to the same number of slots to fill as the other half of the classes for stat purposes only.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That is all.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Equal number of equippable items.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This could be solved by simply allowing the 'Symbol' classified items to be RANGE equippable and usable by ALL classes.  Bingo we are done.  Add more later if you wish but that one simple code change would fix this issue.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>You see, now you are kinda talking about whether or not it is fair or equal that players not be allowed to use the same number of equipable items.. but that is not what this thread was about. The OP stated that this was a balance issue and that is what folks here have been arguing against. As for equal.. of course it isn't, is it fair.. thats debateable depending on many other variables (combined stats of all other equipped items, how those stats are used in the underlying code, etc..)... but is it a balance issue that some players can equip that slot and others can't... not in the slightest.</DIV>

[Melamp]

Balance issue..yesSince a shaman can wear the same armor and jewerly that a scout can then the balance of stats relies on the stats of the priest weapon/secondary having more stats then that of the weapon/secondary of a scout thus a scout needing an extra slot to compensate....is this the case ..NoOr unbalance in the simpliest terms because 17>16

[Kwoung]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Melampus wrote:<BR>Balance issue..yes<BR><BR>Since a shaman can wear the same armor and jewerly that a scout can then the balance of stats relies on the stats of the priest weapon/secondary having more stats then that of the weapon/secondary of a scout thus a scout needing an extra slot to compensate....is this the case ..No<BR><BR>Or unbalance in the simpliest terms because 17>16<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> That is completely wrong. You are assuming that the stats are used identically for a shaman and a scout... which they are not. There are modifiers in the underlying code as well as the stats being used differently among different classes.<p>Message Edited by Kwoung on <span class=date_text>03-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:06 PM</span>

[Melamp]

<blockquote><hr>Kwoung wrote:<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That is completely wrong. You are assuming that the stats are used identically for a shaman and a scout... which they are not. There are modifiers in the underlying code as well as the stats being used differently among different classes.<p>Message Edited by Kwoung on <span class=date_text>03-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:06 PM</span><hr></blockquote>I'm not assuming the indirect stats...5 wis for a prist will amount to X mana but Y mana for a scoutbut If I put on 14 pieces of gear I get A,B,C,D etc raw stats and so would the scoutthose raw stats are identical.and giving an extra slot only adds more of those raw stats...which inturn will equal more indirect stat boost

[Kwoung]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Melampus wrote:<BR><BR>I'm not assuming the indirect stats...5 wis for a prist will amount to X mana but Y mana for a scout<BR><BR>but If I put on 14 pieces of gear I get A,B,C,D etc raw stats and so would the scout<BR>those raw stats are identical.<BR>and giving an extra slot only adds more of those raw stats...which inturn will equal more indirect stat boost<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yes, the raw stats are identical, but think of it this way (it is considerably more complicated, but this will suffice)...</P> <P>On a priest say, the raw stats recieve a higher overall modifier because they are only coming from 16 slots, but the scout on the other hand, recieves a lower modifier because his total stats are based off of 17 slots.</P> <P>An easy visual way of seeing this in a similar situation that is readilly aparent in game, is the weapon slots. By your argument, a 2 hand weapon is inferior to 2 one hand weapons, a one hand weapon and a shield or a one hand weapon and a symbol... and this is not the case. As a matter of fact, as a wizard, I have almost always found that a two handed staff is better than a one hand weapon and a symbol. Now that was just an easy visual way of seeing my point, but in the case of the ranged weapon slot, the difference is made up in the code where you can not readilly see it, but the end result is:</P> <P>17 Slots = 16 Slots as far as the overall effect of stats are concerned</P> <P>... because it was taken into account in the game code.</P> <P>Now, if they want to give the classes that can not use ranged items the ability to do so, then they will have to change the underlying code that was based on them only having 16 slots worth of items equiped.. and that is most likely a pretty huge task and will open up all sorts of imbalances, depending on how many seperate places it was used. Right now say as an example (this is not the real numbers), 16 INT = 34 Power, the change will need to reflect that now 17 INT = 34 Power.</P>

[Melamp]

What makes you think that the code considers that stats direct and indirect, expecially indirect have any consideration for the amount of slots.Is it more likely that the code thinks that 5 agi for a priest should be 10ac because he can only have x amts of slots?isn't more likely the difference in the indirect stats are a result of archtype differation such as 5agi should be less ac for a cleric than a warrior

[Kwoung]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Melampus wrote:<BR>What makes you think that the code considers that stats direct and indirect, expecially indirect have any consideration for the amount of slots.<BR><BR>Is it more likely that the code thinks that 5 agi for a priest should be 10ac because he can only have x amts of slots?<BR><BR>isn't more likely the difference in the indirect stats are a result of archtype differation such as 5agi should be less ac for a cleric than a warrior<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Well since you brought it up, it is most likely not one or the other, it is a combination of both things working in tandem, which is what would make it so complicated to change and why huge imbalances and bugs crop up whenever they try and do something like add a slot after the fact.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The designers are not stupid, they didn't just *forget* to let a whole set of classes have access to a slot... they choose to do it this way. Granted, it may have been a poor choice, since this sort of objection was bound to come up due to most players not having an inkling on how it all works together and the fact that it just doesn't *seem* fair.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Kwoung on <span class=date_text>03-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:40 PM</span>

[SunT]

<blockquote><hr>Kwoung wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>SunTsu wrote:<BR><BR><DIV>No one is asking for any New or Altered ability. I as a Crusader am not asking to use a bow. Nor is my illusionist asking to use Heavy armor. </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>We just want access to the same number of slots to fill as the other half of the classes for stat purposes only.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>That is all. </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Equal number of equippable items.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>This could be solved by simply allowing the 'Symbol' classified items to be RANGE equippable and usable by ALL classes. Bingo we are done. Add more later if you wish but that one simple code change would fix this issue.</DIV><BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><DIV>You see, now you are kinda talking about whether or not it is fair or equal that players not be allowed to use the same number of equipable items.. but that is not what this thread was about. The OP stated that this was a balance issue and that is what folks here have been arguing against. As for equal.. of course it isn't, is it fair.. thats debateable depending on many other variables (combined stats of all other equipped items, how those stats are used in the underlying code, etc..)... but is it a balance issue that some players can equip that slot and others can't... not in the slightest.</DIV><hr></blockquote>ummmmm...I am the OP?And balance = fair. ??You stated in a follow up post that you didn't think the dev 'forgot' to make a range item equippable. I think that is exactly what they did.If you played EQ1 high end you know what a Huge issue this will become a few expansions from now. It MUST be adressed at some point. What I can't believe is they have not fixed it yet.

[Trei]

I have a couple of ideas.1 - Rename Ranged slot as Tertiary, and allow all secondary items and 2hand wpns to be equipable there.Weapons in the slot would be used via the current default key alt-~ ;If bow, then its ranged combat and check for ammo. If great hammer, then its just an alternate auto-attack with a great benefit to tanks: being finally able to switch between sword/board and firepower on the fly. (if one can already do that currently with s/b to ranged... don't see why not this)If symbols etc, it just becomes another wearable slot.Every single class can benefit. Imagine if/when instruments get implemented for bards...2 - (the 'nerf' option)Make it so that weapon stats only apply when weapon is active;If in melee combat, ranged weapon stats dormant.If in ranged combat, melee weapons stats dormant.Of course... they are not my original ideas.DAoC infact uses BOTH of the above implementations and as far as my 3yr experience there went, it works wonderfully.

[CerraWhisperwind]

IF the developers think that mages/priests are underpowered in terms of stats the easiest thing to do would be to raise stats on all off-hand mage/priest items like icons and books. However the mages priests and crusaders have skills and spells that are a cut above scouts and other warriors and this more than makes up for any stats they don't get from the ranged slot. Fast repeatable nukes combined with heals and armor or crowd control (every mage class has crowd control spells) make mages and priests very good, and crusaders get the very best armor available and good weapons and spells better than other warriors. The fact that they don't get the range slot is very likely deliberate as a way to partially balance them.I think the people worried about the effects several expansions from now should just wait and see, as by then the classes will have evolved as well, with bugs fixed and new abilities added. IF there is an imbalance then, THEN raise the issue of the imbalance. The developers are not stupid and are constantly working to balance all the classes.

[rolan]

<DIV>cerra you are mistaking about  cursaders they  do get the same armor as guards and zerkers, but they do not get the best shield in the game that is the tower shield and only guards and zerkers can use that, they do not get the choice of some of the best weapons in game because they can only use swords and some crush weapons, that is a big disadvantage,they do not get duel weild, they also miss more and do less damge per hit than any of the other tank classes.  and as far as spells go, give me a break almost all the sk spells are weak and cost way to much power, gaurds out tank sk and can do the same amount as damge with there abilites as a sk can do with there spells, zerkers tank as well or better than the sk (rember they have the choice of a tower shield) and they out dps the sk by alot. right now the sk is the weakest class in the game. but even more to the point stats on a range item have nothing to do with how the classes are balanced with spells and abilitys and armor and weapons. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> the real issue of this thread was the fact that some classes haveing a range item with stats is a imbalance.  and it is a imbalance that some classes get those stats and others  do not. how any one thinks other wise is well,  just wrong.  a extra 10 str and stam and agl would make a difference on my 44 sk. str would increase my atk wich is dps, and it would increase my power pool which is more spells and again effects dps. stam is hp, what tank can not use more hp? and agl helps me not get hit. again what tank would not like to get hit less? wis would increase my power pool, even int would help my spells land more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> any one that played the old eq will remember that it started out the same way with certain classes not haveing a range slot item or a item with such low stats it meant nothing. it was always a fight on the boards and a complaint by alot of people that is was not fair (just like now). what ended up happening was after a few years soe adds a range slot item for all classes, one that scaled based on how many zones you where flagged for. the first day it was out it was a mad house to even get to the npc that gave the item, and it was  a huge success for soe, they made it look like they were really doing something great for there customers. the truth was it should of been done that way in the first place.(just like now)  any ways you can bet they will pull something like that with this game, all  just to try and make them selfs look good, to try and look like they are doing something speacel  for there customers. the thing is they should of learned from eq one that there should be a range slot item with decent stats for all classes from the very start. if they had done that there would be know need for this dumb thread.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ps. sorry for the bad spelling very tired </DIV>

[CerraWhisperwind]

If you only consider slots then yes its imbalanced. If you consider the classes as a whole then they are not imbalanced. What will you give up to gain the range slot stats? You can't have it all.If things turn out later that having the range slot becomes a bigger advantage than now then things will be balanced again. The devs are constantly balancing.You cannot just focus on one part of a class when dealing with balance issues. You MUST consider the class as a whole. So far every single post agreeing with the original poster has focused solely on the slot issue and totally ignored the fact that the class features form a gestalt that must be balanced against the other classes as gestalts.

[SunT]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CerraWhisperwind wrote:<BR>If you only consider slots then yes its imbalanced. If you consider the classes as a whole then they are not imbalanced. What will you give up to gain the range slot stats? You can't have it all.<BR><BR>If things turn out later that having the range slot becomes a bigger advantage than now then things will be balanced again. The devs are constantly balancing.<BR><BR>You cannot just focus on one part of a class when dealing with balance issues. You MUST consider the class as a whole. So far every single post agreeing with the original poster has focused solely on the slot issue and totally ignored the fact that the class features form a gestalt that must be balanced against the other classes as gestalts.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>I see what you are saying Cerra but I just don't agree.  You feel that 'gear' creates balance.  I think the 'class abilities' themselves create the balance.  Gear levels simply have too many variables to fit into overall class balance as a realistic trackable/tweakable variable.</P> <P>Better gear and spells can offset two identical race/level/class toons to a point where one appears godly while the other appears broken.  One level 40 has all Ebon Armor and all Master1 or adept3 spells/arts and the other has AQ armor from level 20 and app 1 that was granted by the game.  A mob one or two rounds one of them and the other can solo the very same mob.  This is not imbalance, it is simply a matter of economics.  One can afford the upgrades in time and plat.  The other cannot or has not spent the time to find the upgrades or harvest the materials to upgrade or learned a skill that can grant them the plat they need to buy these things from others.  Gear is all about economics not balance.</P> <P>When gear itself crosses the line of imbalance is when a certain gear type grants to much or to little of its intended effect vs the difficulty to attain it.  The recent change in mitigation is one example here.  If a sword were to drop that one rounded white group mobs to the wielder it would have to be nerfed in order to create the balance.  But this has nothing to do with the slot in question.</P> <P>All gear is inately imbalanced by intent.  Some grants much more stats then another for the same slot.  </P> <P>Balance cannot be attained in gear.  Balance is a matter of class abilities.  Imbalance is not having similar gear available to all classes.</P> <P>Having some classes get one extra slot is an imbalance.  They have the ability to load that with stats or leave it as a grey near usless slot.  At least they can make the decision.  </P>

[Kwoung]

<DIV>It would probably be easier and safer to just remove the stat bonuses from any existing range items and go from there, then it would be *fair* for everyone.</DIV>

[SunT]

<DIV>Rather than nerf the other classes who can currently benefit from uber bows etc, I think they should just enable the 'Symbol' classifiaction to be duo range/secondary equippable.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This fixes the issue with very little programming.  Everything is already in the game.  Then all classes can decide whether to equip any symbol item, so no one can cry imbalance.  All current bow clases can still equip thier great items.  Win Win.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Later they can add different class specific types of Range equippable items to further tweak it if need be.</DIV>

[Krugus]

<DIV>Miral wrote: yeah but then again crusaders get horses =P</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Horses that could only be used outside and then got nerfed...... So where is MY range slot +stat adding items!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[CerraWhisperwind]

Gear does create balance. What gear each class can use is an important part of their abilities. They have a baseline of expected gear that you have to have to perform as well as they intend. If you have worse gear, you perform poorly, if you have better gear, you perform better. Gear has to have some value or it would not be a carrot. One of the best ways to balance this however is to factor in average gear in the balance equations.

[Melamp]

Gear does not create balance...Abilities dothat's as crazy as someone reading it and sayingwell I'm sorry Scout ability X is broke and doesn't work...that balances the game bacause scouts have more gear slots that mages so that ability being broke balances everything.besides who was it saying that stats (GEAR) don't matter

[Trei]

hmm I guess it's clear to me now that the 'nerf' option I mentioned would be the most appropriate manner to resolve this issue.self-quote:["... 2 - (the 'nerf' option)Make it so that weapon stats only apply when weapon is active;If in melee combat, ranged weapon stats dormant.If in ranged combat, melee weapons stats dormant. ..."]

[CerraWhisperwind]

<blockquote><hr>Melampus wrote:Gear does not create balance...Abilities dothat's as crazy as someone reading it and sayingwell I'm sorry Scout ability X is broke and doesn't work...that balances the game bacause scouts have more gear slots that mages so that ability being broke balances everything.besides who was it saying that stats (GEAR) don't matter<hr></blockquote>No, that is a straw man arguement. If something is supposed to work and does not, then it needs to be fixed or removed and the class rebalanced. Nothing balances a broken ability that prevents a class from working as intended.How can you say that gear does not create balance when part of mage balancing is the fact they can't wear good armor? A warrior's ability to use most weapons is part of their balance vs a cleric's limited supply. Gear IS an ability all on its own.

[Melamp]

<blockquote><hr>CerraWhisperwind wrote:<blockquote>>No, that is a straw man arguement. If something is supposed to work and does not, then it needs to be fixed or removed and the class rebalanced. Nothing balances a broken ability that prevents a class from working as intended.How can you say that gear does not create balance when part of mage balancing is the fact they can't wear good armor? A warrior's ability to use most weapons is part of their balance vs a cleric's limited supply. Gear IS an ability all on its own.<hr></blockquote>no that's not balance that is design...To put it in perspective...can two of the same class be out of balance? by your argument yes...but i don't think sosay you are a casual player..you get lvl 50 wizard..and you get all player made regular armorThen say i'm a uber guild wizard..I equipt myself in all epic mob drops (granted you can't since it's not really in the game yet)you have 3000 ac and 3000 mana, I have 6500 ac and 4000 mana.Does that show that the game is out of balance? or that the wizards are noit just shows what hard work can do...

[SunT]

The only time you should factor equipment into balance is when all are naked and when all are maxed out with best items in game. Those two times and those two times only, can you make any kind of reasonable comparison of class vs class effectivness.At these two points they should all have the same effectivness in there class given abilities. Which is not to say that a Druid should tank like a Crusader, rather all tanks should tank with equal effectivness in a group situation. Beyond that there is too much deviation in individual equipment stats. Look up AQ and Feysteel armor. What a huge difference. The effectivness of one in one and another in the other is Incomparable. Hence your argument is baseless.Cerra, either you have not looked at individual stats on given items past the 20's or you simply do not have enough game experience to understand the importance of stat gear. As far as I can tell this whole string is represented on the 'con' side by only you. And you can't seem to formulate a decent argument. I think perhaps you should read some of what we wrote and try it out, research it a bit, get into higher end play and see whether we are right or not. Then come back and argue this mute point.This endless circle of incorrect assumptions is growing tiresome.A better thing for you to do is to look at SOE history and look at some stats of those who played to high end. Check out the range slots of those toons and then sit back down. My old toon is still up there, check him out. His range is outrageous. You will see you are wrong. We are right and this is an issue that needs to be addressed. Not later, now. It is already an imbalance for crusader vs all other tanks. It is an indirect imbalance for all priest and caster.

[CerraWhisperwind]

Hmm, I guess the other posters agreeing with me is my imagination. I guess you are the ultimate judge of what a decent arguement is aren't you?I have played these kind of games since EQ was in beta. I have also played role-playing games since I was a kid. I think I know enough game theory to know what I am talking about.Most of the people playing these games that post on the boards are only worried about themselves and their own pet class. They could care less about game balance or consider balance to be when they can do everything better than anyone else. If they see another class with a feature they deem better than their class they cry about it making the whole board seem like a whinefest.This post is an excellent example of this. People playing classes that don't get a ranged weapon all consider it a big injustice because somebody else has it and they don't. They could care less if that is how the game was designed and it was done as part of the greater character class balance. They could care less if the classes that don't have a ranged weapon are already very powerfull compared to the other classes and have many advantages that make up for it. Balance is for the other person, not THEIR class. They get a bunch of people that also play that class to chime in and say YES this is a GREAT idea! Other people playing other classes could care less so they don't even read the post. Only a few people that understand that balance means you cant have everything if you want the game to be challenging contest the idea and generally get booed by the rest. As I said, this thread is a prime example of this.Step back a moment and think. Do you REALLY need that extra slot? Is your gameplay broken right now without it? Are the other classes ripping you to shreds in groups? I thought not. Perhaps, just perhaps, its working as intended. Have you seen any devs posting here saying "we will get right on that!"? Of course that could be because this post broke the forum rules in the first place and was addressed to the devs. I guess people should read a bit before posting.P.S. despite how you think equipment should be factored into the balance between classes, the fact is that equipment is a big part of it. Basic class abilities are the base of each character, and equipment adds on to that base to give the total effectiveness designed by the developers. Each class has different sorts of equipment they can use and the fact that they can't use certain equipment is a built in weakness that helps to limit the character to compensate for other advantages they gain. The classes that don't have ranged weapons are not supposed to. The developers are fully aware that ranged weapons have stats. These stats are part of the advantages that classes that can use ranged weapons have. If you start giving these stats to the non ranged weapon users, you upset the balance. Also, the fact that stats on equipment can vary is also factored in. Stats have to vary or there would not be that carrot of upgrades that drives some players. Stats can't count too much or the upgrades will unbalance the player. Failing to balance this is what can cause mudflation. This is why stats are not as important as some think, otherwise a level 20 in great gear would outpower a level 25 in mediocre gear. As it stands the character level adds a much greater part of the total character effectiveness than stats do just so stats can vary a lot and not have it matter as much. I have varied my gear to test this and my combat effectiveness does not change a great deal. As long as each character has at least basic equipment of around their level, they will perform as intended. Really good equipment will give them a slight boost, but not overpowering.

[Jeridor]

What they should dd is change this from a ranged slot to an accessory or tertiary slot so that a number of things can be used there instead of just ranged weapons.

[SunT]

<DIV>Ok Cerra, one more time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Go and read the FIRST post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is not to you it is to the Dev team.  It is not a whining demand to have something fixed that may or may not be working as intended.  It is an observation that this is now an issue, though not game threatening, and it is a speculation based on years of personal past experiences of SOE high end gaming namely EQ1, that it WILL be a huge issue in the future.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I change the oil in my Tahoe every 3500 miles or so.  I do this because I know that if I don't, eventually the engine will no longer work properly and I will have major issues.  I could wait, hide my head and pretend that at some future point I will not have an issue, but I am both proactive and a realist and hence must face what I percieve will happen in the future today.  Head fully unburied.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is call PM or preventive Maintenance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you read what was originally posted you will see that I am asking for a 'fix' IF it is perceived broken, OR a comment from someone who knows, this excludes you me and everyone else in this string, regarding their line of thinking as to how this will effect high end play.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My experience has taught me it will be a major issue.  If it is never planned to be rectified then I plan to re-roll now.  My Pally will lose a great deal of his effectiveness in latter levels because he will be short on AC/HP and various other stats and effects vs other tanks.  So I will choose, once again with eyes open, to create a toon that will serve me well in the long hall.  I will re-roll a guard.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If it is under consideration, review, or being intentionally delayed due to some programming issue, then I will continue to level my Pally.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is pretty simple really.  I see it will become a major issue and want to know what the intent of SOE is, and if they do not see it as I do I want the ability make a decision whether to re-roll now so I don't have to live with this 'percieved' imbalance or to live with this percieved deficiency.  I already re-rolled once due to a broken class.  I would hate to think I need to go to level 50 or in the future 60 and find out what I had seen in the beginning was now coming to fruition and I have been playing another broken class.  This would drive me to another game and I really like this one.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You and I will have to agree to disagree on one point.  You see stats and number of slots as a minor issue and I see them as a Major issue.  Fine we disagree.  But if you read the first post, my question is not directed at you.  It is directed at developers, asking them what THEY think and intend to do in the future regarding that very disagreement.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So lets move on before this becomes a flame fest and serves neither of us any good.  In the interim we can wait for a developer comment.  After all they are the only one who matters in this thread and they are the only one who can answer the questions I have posed.</DIV>

[Faedor]

Gotta say man. Don't stop, keep the love... No imbalance... Continue reading...I don't think it's a miss SunTsu, keep leveling your pally.I solo 44^^ with my 48 Pally... without some added bonus slot. Trust, the extra slot is nice for a bow if we were supposed to use bows, but hey Master 1 Refusal nukes for 900 and we cast while running.... why do you need a bow?As with all things, if you use the tools they give us, you'll see it's pretty even. Just my 2cp...I think Paladins are still overpowered... and it's my main. Just dinged 49 and in a haste group with my weapon hit ~2.4 speed (guess calculated with ~46% haste) speed avg 200-300 and if the mob is debuffed 350-450... that's regular melee hit... so basically i hit about same with every swing and reposte >= app4 refusal... Toss in our extra Dot, 5 other different attacks, the fact we get same best armor as others and some nice self buffs (tell me you use them)...I self heal at level 49 for 1398 HP, and loh i have the 1/2 time trait refresh timer.... lemme tell ya...Um, until the recent patch I kited 4 Fire Toads at a time in LS... I'd say it's hard to judge "nerf"... i asked why don't pally get bow... i figured it out myself, we don't need it, don't need the extra stats, don't need the bow... it'd be NICE, but hey guess what, so would a CoF.Play your pally, love it, enjoy it."x says to guild, You can heal, tank, kite, nuke, dot, stun... why the hell did I play a ranger?""Faedorne says to guild, Oh yeah, I get FD and Evac in two levels.... j/k"Peace All,Faedorne, Unitas @ Butcherblock

[Melamp]

Hell don't need to even go back to the first post...just go to the titleIt doesn't say...GIVE EVERYONE RANGE SLOT ITEMS..it just says discuss...If a dev...not a [Removed for Content] moderator came to this forum and saidThe range slot is for these classes only..because....then it would be fine.just an acknowledgement of the issue means alot

[CerraWhisperwind]

Yes, aren't we discussing? Oh, you meant you just wanted people that agree with you to post? My bad.

[Melamp]

I actually meant Comment.No, matter of fact I don't care if anyone agrees with me...and matter of fact if no one even responded to the post at all except a dev commenting on the range slot, weather it be in agreement or disagreement with my beliefs than the post would serve the purpose of the subject.as it stand it is a discussion between players and thier thoughts, rather than a comment by a dev about design.

[CerraWhisperwind]

But thats all you can get when you address the post to a dev. They have rules against replying to such posts.