our concerns

[Solarax]

<DIV>ok over the past few days a lot of us ( crafters) have been having a discussion and every time it allways comes down to the same thing and we all agree pretty much.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>we feel crafting should be a viable way to play the game ( eq2) and not be penalized for it.</DIV> <DIV>with the recent nerf soe is blatantly going against what the marketed the game under" tradeskillers will be a viable class in which they can earn THIER xp and <STRONG>COIN</STRONG> without the need to slay monsters"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>well a lot of us feel that with the new fuel the nerfing of sellback prices and general loss of income associated with the lack of ability to sell items to players , that we are no longer able to make tradeskilling a Viable way to play the game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>some will say " stop your whining" and so on but if you have as many unhappy people complaining as you do , then there is a possible problem that needs looking into.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>for example i will use T4 inks. sellback is 6.53 silver for a pristine ( which are not only a pita to make but increadably time consuming) NOW here is the shocker . not only do you need 1 oil and 2 washes which use a 3silver average ingredient if you are lucky but you have to do 3 combines to make the ink so thats 3 fuels which are 2.30 sp each . thats 6.90 sp for those fuels plus the fuel for making your oils and washes (2.30 x 75% ) plus the raw material (3sp average) plus the arated mineral waters (not worth mentioning price as it is negligable)</DIV> <DIV>so total if you are lucky each ink costs you 11.50 sp but sells for 6.53 or roughly half which means you loose 5sp per ink .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so loosing 5sp or 1gp per stack of ink when we are T4 and trying to MAKE money in the game just does not sit right.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>you may argue that i should sell the ink to players . well i am literaly the cheepest ink producer for T4 on the server and always undercut anyone else and guess what . since the nerf i have sold 0 inks offering them at 20% of the next guys price which a week ago i could have taken an order for a 1000 inks or more if anyone knew i would sell them that low.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>this doesnt take into account the fact that i would like to not have to sit in my room all day hoping someone will buy something.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i literaly have made more money buying moths and beetles at the black market and selling them for more in qeynos than i have anything else since the nerf.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>keep in mind that im not the only one seeing this problem.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and now for the big statement that really matters.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=7>Tradeskilling IS NOT FUN ANYMORE.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=7></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=7>NOT FUN.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=7></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>so why am i paying for a game that niether my wife nor i are enjoying anymore . we hope that someone will have some common sense and realize that tradeskillers are leaving the game because its not fun, and do something to rectify the situation.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>i literaly can go group and get an advanced book and sell it for 2+gp much quicker than i can make a stack of inks that wont sell .</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Warhawk85]

<DIV>I agree. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is no enjoyment anymore, the time vs reward is pitiful. No one is buying anything, regardless of pricing. Folks do not want to pay even cost for something, if you try to get a little profit, you are treated like foot scrapings.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I like tradeskilling. I liked it in EQ1, and i liked it here, but now, here is no fun.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Miral]

<DIV>imo tradeskills never were fun... first they were a money tree, then they became a money sink....</DIV>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<DIV>This is gonna be a flamefest for me I am sure but </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>- neither did the attune patch ruin my adventuring *career*</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>- nor does the fuel patch ruin my crafting *career*</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am fully aware this is provoking but </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>- either there is something wrong with me because i stull enjoy the game as much as on the first day 6 weeks ago....</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>.....or something is wrong with a lot of others.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>any reaction tolerated :smileyhappy:</DIV>

[Suraklin]

<DIV>I feel your pain. I'm 32 provisioner and it takes forever to make a stack of food/drink. I sell cheaper than anyone on my server for tier 3 and 4 food/drink. Since the tradeskill patch it's been very difficult to move my products. I didn't do writs for a lot of coin. I always have sold on my merchant. Since everyone can do any type of crafting now I think some people have tried provisioning to see if they can stand it to make their own food/drink. In my opinion tradeskills were fine but the time sink involved needed to be adjusted. I am hoping the Devs eventually wake up and change the way crafting works in a good way. I hope they implement making multiple items per combine. If I can make 4-5 drinks per combine I can make a stack 4-5 times faster. If I can do that I can sell my product cheaper because I'll have so much food/drink I'll want to clear out my inventory. I can't see how the Devs don't understand something this simple. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You're right about going out and adventuring and being able to make more money. I went out harvesting to raise skills and got bones that I sold for 1-10g in about an hours time. I made 20 gold in 8 hours from those in merchant mode. Got a steel cluster that sells for an average of 15-20g. My fiance who plays the game found a pelt in Zek that someone bought for 75g today. She has two rhuthenium (sp?) clusters that she's trying to sell for 65g each. Crafting is a hard way to try to make money. I like crafting though and this patch was a big slap in the face to every crafter who plays the game and a lot of people quit because of the crafting patch. I'm not joking either. One guild on my server went from having 120 members down to about a dozen. Badly thought out decisions pisses people off. There's no economy on the test server hardly at all so the Devs really dropped the ball on changing crafting this way.</DIV>

[Solarax]

what makes me sad is im 40.42 alchie and i have not done a single combine from any skills over 39 because i cant even afford a stack of fuel (about 2gp for T5 fuel) because none will buy my product and sellback to merchants looses a lot of money . im just gonna have to get money from adventuring and use it to fund TS for 1.58 more lvls till i get EF access . then hopefully by then at least i will be able to get the raws to sell to others to make enough money for the fueli know a lot of people quit as i know 3 people IRL that have and it has not only stopped my wife and i from getting a second account ( only 3$ more since we have multiple EQ accounts) but has us considering ending not only our EQ2 account but just giving up altogether on EQ1 also ( i have been playing EQ1 since beta 6 years ago on various accounts)

[Shazzbott_Feldercarb]

Just curious, how much are you all paying for the harvestables, not the rares, the common stuff. I ask, because that sets the price for the final item. If the costs for getting raw material is so high, that the price you sell the final product for make it unsellable, don't purchase the raw material. T3 harvestables are based only on the wholesaler quest price. 3 silver I believe is still the going rate. So, how many of you actually go out and harvest your own resources? You do know that this is the cause of most of your problems right?Tradeskillers are paying other players for items they have ZERO reason not to get themselves. At level 8 adventurer/26 tailor, I'm regularly out in Nek forrest gathering my resouces. Because of this, my costs/prices are so far below what you have, that I can't keep items in stock. An adventurer can go from 1 to 50 without ever having to harvest a single item. Yes, there is the odd quest or 2 that require them to harvest, but even then, its not required unless you really really want that item. You can skip it and continue to 50. Tradeskillers need to harvest, just as adventureres need to hunt. I have 8 tradeskillers I'm leveling up on test. I'm able to make and sell items there for a profit, more then enough to keep my tradeskilling up and keep money in the bank. This is even more amazing when you consider that most test players don't like to buy items. By minimizing my costs, I'm abla to sell at a lower price and still make a profit. Interdependent items that I need, I purchase at the same price I would sell them to another player. Don't blame the cost of items on fuels, blame them on the outragous prices you pay for items you can get for free.Shazz

[Gladesto]

<DIV>     As a alchemist ive not yet sold one potions.Its rediculas.Went into the field thaught it be like eq one with some fun potions like sow.I mean some of my potions are cool an all, though nothing like i expected them to be.Its rediculas i sell maybe some washes some resins an loams thats about the extent of it.</DIV> <DIV>     At least people who make food can make some cash.People are not even buying my crap.Since the nurf even people are not buying my other resins an such.This is getting rediculas.Why not fix this problem before you fix horses an such.That was a waste of a patch.There are way to many bugs yet to be bothered fixing a horses speed.When horses should run faster than humans an mobs any how.</DIV> <DIV>    Soe wake up will ya.Fix the stuff that need addressing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Fix bug</DIV> <DIV>2) Fix crafting so people buy things an understand things a little better.</DIV> <DIV>3) Get us some in game guides, its been over what 4 months an ive yet to see a gm in game.What kind of customer service crap is this?</DIV> <DIV>4) Stop wasting time on fixing areas that dont need it.</DIV> <DIV>5) Fix the guild exp.Its stupid.A guild should not suffer for one person leaving.Maybe get the guild some debt for a person leaving aka Patron.Dont let them loose a whole lvl.</DIV> <DIV>6) Add some better potions for alchemists.</DIV> <DIV>7) Add some more zones. An instances.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All the things above need to be corrected before the nurfing of a d a m n horse.<BR></DIV>

[Shazzbott_Feldercarb]

<blockquote><hr>Gladestone wrote:<DIV> Wrote some stuff that I don't need to repeat here. </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>1) Fix bug</DIV><DIV>2) Fix crafting so people buy things an understand things a little better.</DIV><DIV>3) Get us some in game guides, its been over what 4 months an ive yet to see a gm in game.What kind of customer service crap is this?</DIV><DIV>4) Stop wasting time on fixing areas that dont need it.</DIV><DIV>5) Fix the guild exp.Its stupid.A guild should not suffer for one person leaving.Maybe get the guild some debt for a person leaving aka Patron.Dont let them loose a whole lvl.</DIV><DIV>6) Add some better potions for alchemists.</DIV><DIV>7) Add some more zones. An instances.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>All the things above need to be corrected before the nurfing of a d a m n horse.<BR></DIV><hr></blockquote>Here are some answers for you:1) They are fixing bugs. 2) When I look at the description of potions, I've a pretty good idea what it does. The description is right there. Now getting players to take a second to look at it, that is another story.3) Was there an in-game issue that you needed a gm/guide for (you petitioned), or is it that you just didnt' see any around? Heck, I got a petition answered on test and we have ZERO gm/guide support. They are there, even if you don't see them in game.4) I could say a bunch here but it would only be my opinion and no more valid then your statement.5) Haven't had anyone leave the guild so I can't offer anything here. I will make it a point to test this.6) Like what? The potions seem to cover a lot already, what else would you suggest?7) Wow, you've been everywhere? You've explored every zone?Shazz

[Speak]

<DIV>The market for harvest  resources has collasped.  Use to you could spend an evening harvesting T-4  food and Alchem stuff, put up on the broker and sell out in a hour or two.  For a hunter it was a good source of income, used to buy armor, spells, weapons, food, and crafted items such as furniture from the people who purchased the raw resources.  Now since the patch very few crafters are buying, you look on the broker and see vast amounts of inventory, with prices dropping to pennies in some cases.  It is no longer worth the time  harvesting raw products.   It seems SOE has taken making gold out of both sides of the equation.  Crafters are having a hard time making money and buying resources.  Hunters are making less form selling drops and harvest goods, so they buy less items from the crafters.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The game is becoming less and less fun to play, </DIV>

[MasterMerl]

Oh I thought everyone would be happy with a balanced economy? I thought everyone would be happy with making hardly any money? I laughed at people when the complained about that people were making too much money as crafters in beta and the live servers. I laughed on the live servers when people were complaining about selling their t5 recources to make money, and then the crafters complaining everyone is charging to much. Now everyone's combined complaining has brought everyone to this! I said it once I'll say it again: You brought it on to yourself.Good luck on making Sony change it. Now as a level 50 I can't really make any money, my crafters in my the guild can make hardly any money. People are forced to adventuer now. Oh yeah this was a perfecet idea.

[Gladesto]

<DIV>   No ive not explored every zone, im not saying the game is all bad.Im working on quests an having fun with that.Though some things need to be fixed.You no it an i no this.Well where a a guild with about 60 members.Some go find role play guilds or to be with there friends.Ive not lost many in our guild.Where currently lvl 11 on the guild system.An thats thanks to the heritages an people in my guild working hard on them.Its better than doing small writs.This was one of the greater ideas i think soe has had.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>   There are a few issues how ever.If one patron leaves a guild looses a ton of exp.Its kind of crapy for a guild to loose a whole lvl if one person leaves.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>   Plus there are a lot of issues to be fixed.Soe has stated there will be no camping in games.Yet they are making people camp for heritages.Like killing bill for the guise.We had to wait in nek 2 hours for him to spawn.Waste of my time.When i can be helping others out as a gm in my guild.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>   I enjoy crafting dont get me wrong just some things need to be fixed.Players dont buy my stuff cause they have poisons on the merchants.Maybe if they was not on merchants i can actually make some cash for them.Not a gold mind you maybe 40 silver per.They have some value to them.You can use them a few times.Maybe less than 40 silver ok maybe 15 or im just saying.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>   When you do petition you get the same responce.Soe will not address this issue at this time thanks, Have a nice day.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>    There are many things wrong with the game.Like the bug in nek.Where it keeps you in battle mode once in awhile.Have to wait for it to wear off but its a known bug.Should be fixed.Im sure there are other things that i can vent on the top of my head.</DIV> <DIV>    Dont get me wrong my guildies an i love this game but there are still issues to be fixed rather than wasting time on a horse that should be able to out run a person an mobs.Since it costs so much any how you think it be worth the cost of it.</DIV>

[inshiningarmor]

<DIV>The problem is, SOE in their infinate wisdom decidesd that INSTEAD  of <U>banning</U> a few exploiters, they would instead make it tough for them to make money to sell on Ebay.  I am sorry but if ANY account has made 50 plat they have been exploiting... BAN THEM but do not punish the rest of us.   On my server  AB EVERY crafter knows of the lvl 50 provisioner and that accounts OTHER 4 45+ crafters is an exploiter and yet SOE only suspended for a week... Boo hoo that really hurt.  Ban the account and all the money it caused   Get rid of the few not anger the majority!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Lig]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MasterMerlin wrote:<BR>Oh I thought everyone would be happy with a balanced economy? I thought everyone would be happy with making hardly any money? I laughed at people when the complained about that people were making too much money as crafters in beta and the live servers. I laughed on the live servers when people were complaining about selling their t5 recources to make money, and then the crafters complaining everyone is charging to much. Now everyone's combined complaining has brought everyone to this! I said it once I'll say it again: You brought it on to yourself.<BR><BR>Good luck on making Sony change it. Now as a level 50 I can't really make any money, my crafters in my the guild can make hardly any money. People are forced to adventuer now. Oh yeah this was a perfecet idea.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Look.... I understand you said that they would nerf things if people kept crying but don't you think it needed to be done?</P> <P>There was a ton of money coming in and none leaving the game. This makes inflation rampant. Where was there a true money sink huh? Nowhere... I repeat NO WHERE. There was no money sink at all. Provisioners (and I'm a lvl 37 one myself) were making money hand over fist and so were the Alchs. 23 gold for a T5 task? ARE YOU CRAZY. Do the math man. That's a plat coming in every 4 tasks. There are people out there with 300 - 600 plat. That's not crazy for you? And there was nowhere for the money to go. It was hanging around forever. No money sinks at all to speak of... at least not for that kind of money.</P> <P>Economics 101 is.... there has to be a flow of money... you know a flow? like a river... it has to be made somewhere and flow out somewhere.... if it doesn't flow out of the economy then eventually the dam will break and the town wil be swept away in a flood of platinum.</P> <P>What is it that we spend money on even right now? Fuel for crafting, that's it pretty much. Where else is there a money sink? Mending? Give me a break that costs nothing. Housing? Yeah everyone is housing at the outskirts cause that is where all the high lvl societies are and that is the most convenient.</P> <P>How was money leaving the economy before this patch?</P> <P>Something needed to be done and fast. I agree that a flow of money does need to happen. But 23 gold of "NEW MONEY" for 1 writ? and selling back to vendor at ungodly gains? No I don't think so. They will tweak it so that the income of the TSer is more in line with what is reasonable for an economy and I hope they make even more moeny sinks.</P> <P>I'd like to see a fee for entering an apposing city to get the quests in there... Something like 5 gold an hour would be ok I think.</P> <P>How about making the higher priced housing more desirable... like decreasing the % a broker charges for your goods if you have the higher housing so people can buy your goods at only a 15% mark up or something? (I know people are going to say not fair but these are just ideas, I'm not saying they are the best ideas I'm just throwing them out there)</P> <P>Anyways that's what I think.</P>

[Shazzbott_Feldercarb]

Ok, the patron leaving causing a loss of guild xp is not a bad thing. The guild xp is a reflection of how the guild is viewed by the city. The higher the guild, the more work that you have done in the betterment of the city. Lose a major player, and you lose respect in the city. In politics, look what happens when a major party member leaves. Same with business when a company officer leaves. The approval of the group drops. Even if it is only for a little, it drops.Ah, camping. Is there camping in EQ2, yes and no. For *most* items, no I don't have to camp to get them. Take bootstrutters guide. I've had it drop from several different mobs throughout the zone. This is true for most items. Now, heritage quests, that is something different. Yes, you have to camp a particular mob, mostly because it is a very effeciant way to limit how many of a particular item is coming into the world. Now, as long as the item is the reward, you are talking about 6 people getting the quest advancement at one time. That seems like a fair trade. As for having to wait for him to show up... Always having him up whenever someone wanted him would trivialize the encounter. Some quests will require more effort, everything from more people to more time.I agree with your point on poison. I would like something a little better, maybe keep the merchant selling, but make the player made work better over the level range. Right now poison is a little limited in effectiveness. The second half of the tier it is all but useless.I think you might want to explain a little more about what you are petitioning. I petition for things like, unrecoverable shards, stuck in the world, abuse, harassment, that sort of thing. Issues with mechanics, I use /feedback /bug and the message boards. SOE does not discuss in-game information in petition, unless it is something they have specifically setup in advance.When I move my characters full time into Nek, I'll try and re-create the combat problem. As for the horses change, I don't have one *yet* so I won't comment.Shazz

[Greggthegrmreapr]

<DIV>I myself hate crafting...  my Shadowknight is a level 10 outfitter, and i can't do much more than that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The fact that i am basicly forced to do it to make any kind of money to afford the stuff you make is kinda crappy...  I love the game, but i hate being "forced" to do things just to continue playing...  without getting gilled in 5 hits that is</DIV>

[guillero]

<DIV>They have changed this for one GOOD reason!   Fadly enrichement of crafters!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The problem was that crafters where crafting their [Removed for Content] of and where only busy with crafting and selling it back to NPC merchant with quite some profit!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>RESULT:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. There many crafters walking around with 100+ platinum on their account by grinding only!</DIV> <DIV>2. As it was easier to sell back to NPC merchants with good profit, not much TradeSkill items where sold on the broker! Meaning you had to pay redicilous prices for several goods as it was only looted stuff!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And that you cant sell it back for cost price or even for profit now is a VERY GOOD thing!</DIV> <DIV>For I shall tell you a SECRET <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> .......adventurers can't sell their stuff back with profit either! If I had to sell back my stuff I will lose 66% at least of the cost price!  So now what SOE only did is draw a straight line for ALL classes!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And I know sellling is a pain in the [FAAR-NERFED!]...so we just have to wait till they come up with a better sell system!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>greetz</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(and yes I am a crafter too...but just started a week before the patch)</DIV>

[Shazzbott_Feldercarb]

<blockquote><hr>Greggthegrmreapr wrote:<DIV>I myself hate crafting... my Shadowknight is a level 10 outfitter, and i can't do much more than that.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>The fact that i am basicly forced to do it to make any kind of money to afford the stuff you make is kinda crappy... I love the game, but i hate being "forced" to do things just to continue playing... without getting gilled in 5 hits that is</DIV><hr></blockquote>You don't make any money from the stuff you kill and collect when adventuring? No meats/bones/useless weapons to sell. No books/spells/armors from chests? No 'glowy ?' pickups and sells. No quests completed? All of these things would generate revenue without having to set foot in a tradeskill zone. Or if worse came to worse, you could just do a wholesaler task, at level 10 you should be able to get T2 harvest quest, thats 12 silver. Shazz

[It]

<DIV><FONT color=#6666cc>shazz, even before the patch i took up harvesting to make enough money to get by as an adventurer. you simply do not make enough coin off of lotto'd drops in groups to pay for your expenses, unless you go for farmer-style green mob slaughter</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6666cc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6666cc>there are not enough drops to cover costs and what there is almost always has a very low sell price</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6666cc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6666cc>at level 43, i have 77 gold to my name and no horse (not enough to buy a full set of armor for my level, never mind weapons, spell scrolls, supply of drinks, or any frivolous stuff like furniture)... and prospects just got a whole lot bleaker now that crafters are not buying resources</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6666cc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6666cc>it needed a fix because there was a subgroup of crafters making waaayyyy too much, and they could buy brokered items for such high prices that the whole market was elevated above the average player... however, as often happens in mmorpg's, they fixed it not with a tweak but with a sledgehammer, and it urgently needs some realignment</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6666cc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6666cc>at present, adventuring will not cover your shortfall as a crafter (unless you're willing to spend hours speed-killing greens), crafting will not cover your shortfall as an adventurer (unless you're a t4 or t5 provisioner)... and either playstyle should be standalone anyway, as promised</FONT></DIV>

[Blindrage]

<DIV>The only thing I see is an issue is the sellback on attuned items, I paid 1g for a 1handed club on my guardian 3 weeks ago or so..I was going to use Starfall that I quested, went to sell club to merchant because I had to attune it, offered me 4 silver.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That is just insane lol.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is a lot of high lvl crafters with bank out there from making 23g at T5 every 20mins or so from guild writs.  I have a 25 guardian, 24 monk, 21 wizard, and 19 shaman.  I came from Butcherblock server about a month ago...and I have around 45gold saved all my chars have yellow+ gear and all app4+ in the important spells/abilites that I use.  I have a lvl 14 Craftsman that I have made some lvl 10 food with..  I do not see how people say money can not be made, maybe I am just lucky but in a month I have made as stated above and I am a casual player.  maybe 2 hours per night every other night 3-4hours on weekend.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I guess it would be a bit harder to do stricly crafting, maybe that is the issue and I just mis-understood the other posts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Blindrage</DIV>

[Platfing]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shazzbott_Feldercarb wrote:<BR><BR>Tradeskillers are paying other players for items they have ZERO reason not to get themselves. At level 8 adventurer/26 tailor, I'm regularly out in Nek forrest gathering my resouces. Because of this, my costs/prices are so far below what you have, that I can't keep items in stock. An adventurer can go from 1 to 50 without ever having to harvest a single item. Yes, there is the odd quest or 2 that require them to harvest, but even then, its not required unless you really really want that item. You can skip it and continue to 50. Tradeskillers need to harvest, just as adventureres need to hunt. <BR><BR><BR>Shazz<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Ok, good luck taking that level 8 adventurer to Tier 5 zones and harvesting then.  That's not even feasible.  </P> <P>Nobody should have to level their adventurer in order to level (or make a profit from) their Artisan.  That was a fundamental design of EQ-2 Artisan class. </P> <P>Fenra Fairheart (Butcherblock)<BR></P> <DIV>  </DIV>

[Shazzbott_Feldercarb]

Perhaps not, but we will need to give it time to take effect. While I can see that not everything is as good as it should be, these changes are making it better. There are still issues to be worked out, /feedback and debates of issues that we are having here will be how they are changed.Shazz

[Lig]

<FONT size=3></FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Itte wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT color=#6666cc>shazz, even before the patch i took up harvesting to make enough money to get by as an adventurer. you simply do not make enough coin off of lotto'd drops in groups to pay for your expenses, unless you go for farmer-style green mob slaughter</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6666cc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6666cc>there are not enough drops to cover costs and what there is almost always has a very low sell price</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6666cc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6666cc>at level 43, i have 77 gold to my name and no horse (not enough to buy a full set of armor for my level, never mind weapons, spell scrolls, supply of drinks, or any frivolous stuff like furniture)... and prospects just got a whole lot bleaker now that crafters are not buying resources</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6666cc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6666cc>it needed a fix because there was a subgroup of crafters making waaayyyy too much, and they could buy brokered items for such high prices that the whole market was elevated above the average player... however, as often happens in mmorpg's, they fixed it not with a tweak but with a sledgehammer, and it urgently needs some realignment</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6666cc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6666cc>at present, adventuring will not cover your shortfall as a crafter (unless you're willing to spend hours speed-killing greens), crafting will not cover your shortfall as an adventurer (unless you're a t4 or t5 provisioner)... and either playstyle should be standalone anyway, as promised</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Give me a break... you know it's like people are willing to lie for their own good or something. What lvl adventurer are you 43? and you only have 77 gold to your name? How much do you play? I am a 37 lvl Prov and a 34 lvl Inquisitor. I get invited to lvl 38+ groups all the time and let me tell you something people... </P> <P><FONT size=5>You make a ton of money adventuring.</FONT></P> <DIV>I have no clue where you are hunting but if you go to somewhere like Rivervale or the Citedel of lost souls you can get books that sell for 2+ gold each to the vendor, you can get items that sell for 5+ gold each to the vendor. I mean give me a break... you know some of us crafters adventure too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So stop feeding me this line of crap about "I'm such a poor adventurer I can't afford to pay 30sp for a drink... boohoo"... or I can't afford a piece of armor for 30 gold that will last me till I'm lvl 45. Come on people you can make that in one night of good high lvl adventuring.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you are below 30... yes it is true that is a hard range to make money adventuring... but you know what? You armor should be quested anyways. Or good drops with a piece or 2 to supliment while you hunt for better.</DIV>

[Shazzbott_Feldercarb]

<blockquote><hr>Platfinger wrote: A lot of stuff you can go read yourself. </P><P>Fenra Fairheart (Butcherblock)<BR></P><DIV> </DIV><hr></blockquote>Ok, when I am high enough, I'll go there. I doesn't bother me at all.Shazz

[Bewk]

<DIV>This was a great change.  I t had to be done.  I am sorry that the money pit has ended.  I must admitt change is hard especially when you could log in for a couple of hours and guarntee yourself a Plat in that time.  I am a teir 5 provisioner it was too easy to make money.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sure it was fun being able to buy what ever I wanted with no concern of the cost, but think about what that does to adventurers.  I was able to afford to buy 9 adept 3s for my cleric and all the best gear available.  You say adventurers make better money then us?  Not a chance I have 2 brothers that are adventure only and when they where 10 levels higher then my crafter I had to buy all their gear upgrades.  Does that sound fair?  Not only did we have more money then them but because the value of a gold piece was minimal we would buy stuff at very high rates that no adventurer could aford.  What this did is drive prices up to where only crafters could afford anything of any real value. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If people are having a hard time selling anything that should tell you there was a problem. Now that crafters don't have an endless money pit they aren't buying any longer. Well if the crafters aren't buying and all sales have stopped that should tell you how much of a part adventurers where taking part in the economy...none because there income have not changed so they should still be buying at the same rate.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I must admit I wasn't hit as hard with this change because even though I am a provisioner I never did writs or tasks on any consistant lvl.  I always made food and drink and sold to the public and that market is still there as long as your prices arent rediculas.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>These changes where a good move.  Sure we will have a lot less alchemists then before.  Good there was only one reason so many people made alchemists and it wasn't because they likes helping their freinds with subcombines ..  It was because of the straight up cash cow they were. The true tradeskillers will still be there the cash farmers will not and I think that is a good thing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[It]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ligur1 wrote:<BR><FONT size=3></FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Itte wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT color=#6666cc>shazz, even before the patch i took up harvesting to make enough money to get by as an adventurer. you simply do not make enough coin off of lotto'd drops in groups to pay for your expenses, unless you go for farmer-style green mob slaughter</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6666cc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6666cc>there are not enough drops to cover costs and what there is almost always has a very low sell price</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6666cc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6666cc>at level 43, i have 77 gold to my name and no horse (not enough to buy a full set of armor for my level, never mind weapons, spell scrolls, supply of drinks, or any frivolous stuff like furniture)... and prospects just got a whole lot bleaker now that crafters are not buying resources</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6666cc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6666cc>it needed a fix because there was a subgroup of crafters making waaayyyy too much, and they could buy brokered items for such high prices that the whole market was elevated above the average player... however, as often happens in mmorpg's, they fixed it not with a tweak but with a sledgehammer, and it urgently needs some realignment</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6666cc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6666cc>at present, adventuring will not cover your shortfall as a crafter (unless you're willing to spend hours speed-killing greens), crafting will not cover your shortfall as an adventurer (unless you're a t4 or t5 provisioner)... and either playstyle should be standalone anyway, as promised</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Give me a break... you know it's like people are willing to lie for their own good or something. What lvl adventurer are you 43? and you only have 77 gold to your name? How much do you play? I am a 37 lvl Prov and a 34 lvl Inquisitor. I get invited to lvl 38+ groups all the time and let me tell you something people... </P> <P><FONT size=5>You make a ton of money adventuring.</FONT></P> <DIV>I have no clue where you are hunting but if you go to somewhere like Rivervale or the Citedel of lost souls you can get books that sell for 2+ gold each to the vendor, you can get items that sell for 5+ gold each to the vendor. I mean give me a break... you know some of us crafters adventure too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So stop feeding me this line of crap about "I'm such a poor adventurer I can't afford to pay 30sp for a drink... boohoo"... or I can't afford a piece of armor for 30 gold that will last me till I'm lvl 45. <FONT color=#9933cc>Come on people you can make that in one night of good high lvl adventuring.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you are below 30... yes it is true that is a hard range to make money adventuring... but you know what? You armor should be quested anyways. Or good drops with a piece or 2 to supliment while you hunt for better.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#6666cc>No. You can't. Say I hunt Rivervale in a full group of 6 with lotto running for 2 hours. Each of those six people *might* come away from there with 6 - 8 gold. Drinks for 2 hours can cost 2 gold easy, assuming you died one time. That leaves 4 - 6 gold to put into your Armor/Weapons/Spell Scrolls/Etc pile from the night's hunting. You'll have the odd night where you do better than that, you'll have the odd night where you do worse. Feerrott/LS/EF get a little better (but costs go up too).</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#6666cc>I'm a really experienced gamer, an honest person, and I'm telling you... I took up harvesting because I needed to. Adventurers who are not crafting will all tell you they have been getting by by playing the broker or harvesting... or that they regularly go and speed-kill greens for next to no xp to get some cash.</FONT><BR></FONT></P>

[Lig]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Itte wrote:<BR><BR> <P><FONT color=#6666cc>No. You can't. Say I hunt Rivervale in a full group of 6 with lotto running for 2 hours. Each of those six people *might* come away from there with 6 - 8 gold. Drinks for 2 hours can cost 2 gold easy, assuming you died one time. That leaves 4 - 6 gold to put into your Armor/Weapons/Spell Scrolls/Etc pile from the night's hunting. You'll have the odd night where you do better than that, you'll have the odd night where you do worse. Feerrott/LS/EF get a little better (but costs go up too).</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#6666cc>I'm a really experienced gamer, an honest person, and I'm telling you... I took up harvesting because I needed to. Adventurers who are not crafting will all tell you they have been getting by by playing the broker or harvesting... or that they regularly go and speed-kill greens for next to no xp to get some cash.</FONT><BR></FONT></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I don't know how you can't make money. I seriously don't. I go to the Obelisk and I make TONS of cash each hour.. and I do it in a full group. You are lvl 43... if you wanted to go pharm cash there with 2 other people you would get 20 gold an hour each I bet. I am not a rich person in game... I never did the crazy writ thing (although I wish I had, I figure if there is a way to make money that SOE has not nerfed do it till they do). I have 1.7pp to my name from selling drink and adventuring. I can tell you that per hour I make much more adventuring in zones like the Obelisk since the writ nerf. Hell I made over 15 gold a few nights ago for 2 hours of hunting in a full group and that was just selling to vendor. And I didn't even get any of the big drops.</P> <P>One way or the other writs had to be nerfed. I mean it was too much money coming in and none going out. There have to be money sinks so the economy doesn't explode.</P> <P>Personally I feel that if you find the right spots you can make a lot of cash per hour adventuring and paying 30+sp per hour drink is not too much for your investment. It takes long enough to make the [FAAR-NERFED!] stack... it's worth at least 6 gold... really it's worth more like 15 gold... that is 20 hours of play time and if you say you make 6-8 gold for 2 hours that's 60 - 80 gold for that stack. Fine, you die a few times make it 50 - 70 gold you can make on that stack of drink. I think my time is as valuable as yours >shrug<. (like I said I think that you can make more if you hunt in the right places)<BR></P>

[It]

<DIV><FONT color=#6666cc>For clarity, I agree that 30 s is a reasonable price for T4 drink, considering the work that goes into making it. That was never my point at all. </FONT></DIV>

[SunT]

<DIV>This string represents TWO craft classes.  Alch and Prov.  You used to have a money machine and NOT have to interact in order to make money, but now you have to work for it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BOOO HOOO.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All the other classes have been scratching it out from the beginning trying to make a co-dependent system work, even though the Alch did not participate.  THe cornerstone of Crafting was too busy lining thier pockets in thier little rooms to make what the rest of the society needed.  Now you have lost your exploits and your Midas touch and all you guys do is whine about it.  You brought it upon yourselves.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Give me a break.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can sell to players and other crafters.  I have NO intention of making anything outside my class unless I cannot find anyone to make it for me.  If you get out there and TRY to make this work you will find that it does.  Get over your 5000% markups and make it for a reasonable fee and you will make money.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can try to fool others with your whining and discontent, but I am not fooled.  I know how much you made off your exploits and how hard it was for me to level without your willingness to supply me what I needed.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Don't speak for me or my class who has been at your mercy since game inception.  I for one am happy that you have to sell to players.  That is how the game was designed.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Get over yourself.  Go out and work for it like the rest of us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV>

[BWShellShocked]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SunTsu wrote:<BR> <DIV>This string represents TWO craft classes.  Alch and Prov.  You used to have a money machine and NOT have to interact in order to make money, but now you have to work for it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BOOO HOOO.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All the other classes have been scratching it out from the beginning trying to make a co-dependent system work, even though the Alch did not participate.  THe cornerstone of Crafting was too busy lining thier pockets in thier little rooms to make what the rest of the society needed.  Now you have lost your exploits and your Midas touch and all you guys do is whine about it.  You brought it upon yourselves.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Give me a break.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can sell to players and other crafters.  I have NO intention of making anything outside my class unless I cannot find anyone to make it for me.  If you get out there and TRY to make this work you will find that it does.  Get over your 5000% markups and make it for a reasonable fee and you will make money.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can try to fool others with your whining and discontent, but I am not fooled.  I know how much you made off your exploits and how hard it was for me to level without your willingness to supply me what I needed.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Don't speak for me or my class who has been at your mercy since game inception.  I for one am happy that you have to sell to players.  That is how the game was designed.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Get over yourself.  Go out and work for it like the rest of us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Why is it that all threads always end like this, no matter who is saying what?</P> <P>The OP posts about THEIR class.  Another class says BOO HOO, we've had it hard, blah blah blah.</P> <P>The OP is posting concerns about their OWN class, which is what they know about.</P> <P>Everyone knows that ALL tradeskill classes have issues.  Can't we at least agree on that?</P> <P>Isn't it up to each class to champion their own cause?  Why is it that when an Alch or Prov complain, it suddenly turns into a bash the OP type of thread?</P> <P>The way I see it, is tradeskillers should be sticking together, not fighting amongst themselves.  Adventurers too, for that matter.  What is happening, is the community is being divided and pitted against each other.  If we ever have any hopes of SOE fixing things in the short term, we need to stop these pointless bashes, and chime in with our own perceived issues, about OUR OWN classes.  Not bash the other classes to make ourselves feel better.</P> <P><U><FONT color=#ffffff><STRONG>Bottom Line:</STRONG></FONT></U></P> <P>Tradeskills and the advertised expectation that an artisan would be equally able to play the game as an adventurer is now no longer true.  The recent patch pretty much killed that ability for ALL classes.  Harvesters (adventurers) are now having a difficult time selling what they harvest, and the economy is severely suffering for many players, crafters and adventurers alike.  Many crafters can't afford to buy from harvesters, and as a result, harvesters (adventurers) cannot afford to buy from crafters.  Artisans that do buy from them, can't price their stuff at an affordable level. Pure artisans want to craft, they don't want to waste time harvesting.  The prior situation was great for us.  We didn't have to harvest, the adventurers did it, and we paid them well for their time and efforts.  They in turn were able to pay our prices.  It wasn't a bad arrangement, IMHO.</P> <P>BUT, There are a great many things that needed fixing before they should have hosed economy entirely, as they did.  Make the game significantly less fun, and ultimately you will have signifcantly less players.  Just take a look at the various MMORPG popularity rating sites.  EQ2 isn't #1 on a single one of them, and it continues to slide downward.  Just why do you think that is?  I think its pretty obvious why.</P> <P>First they should have put in the vendor system that they've been saying they plan on implementing, to allow everyone to actually play the game they are paying to play, while they sell their wares, rather than be a prisoner in their room.  As it is now, a far less percentage of players are able to use it in any meaningful way, than those that can.  Most can only use it while they are sleeping (surprise, most people are sleeping then too, so they aren't buying from you.. PST folks have it the hardest, not only are they sleeping, so are all the later timezones).  Morning server reboots, DHCP resets, dialup accounts, and other factors prevent many tradeskillers from using the existing system to actually make a decent living.</P> <P>Fix the dozens of broken recipes that plague ALL crafters.</P> <P>Add significant and easily visible benefits to crafters stuff (except provisioners, of course, they already have this in a BIG way) that makes their wares something people feel they NEED (like provisioners currently enjoy).  Armor made by a crafter should be MUCH better than anything found while adventuring, to justify the cost of purchasing it, just as an example.</P> <P>Fix the enormous timesink that provisioners suffer from both in the form of their raws being far rarer than others, and the incredible amount of time it takes to make minimal amounts of wares to sell.  This would go a long way towards lowering the prices, and increasing availability.</P> <P>Fix the tons of other issues that players have been screaming about since beta.</P> <P>THEN worry about the economy and things that significantly affect the fun factor of the game.</P> <P>For every "nerf" that is as enormous as this one, there should be an equal amount of "fix" that goes towards improving the "fun factor" which would go a long way to taking the sting out of such extreme actions.  Yes, the economy was beginning to spin out of control, but there was plenty of time left to fix it later and concentrate of fixing the legitimate complaints that so many have been screaming about since beta, and are continuing to scream about.  nVidia 6800 issues, for instance?  Each significant patch like this one, should ALSO include significant fixes!</P> <P>One Star and Flame me if you must, but I know I'm not wrong here...<BR></P>

[Raven DarkSto]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BWShellShocked wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SunTsu wrote:<BR> <DIV>This string represents TWO craft classes.  Alch and Prov.  You used to have a money machine and NOT have to interact in order to make money, but now you have to work for it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BOOO HOOO.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All the other classes have been scratching it out from the beginning trying to make a co-dependent system work, even though the Alch did not participate.  THe cornerstone of Crafting was too busy lining thier pockets in thier little rooms to make what the rest of the society needed.  Now you have lost your exploits and your Midas touch and all you guys do is whine about it.  You brought it upon yourselves.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Give me a break.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can sell to players and other crafters.  I have NO intention of making anything outside my class unless I cannot find anyone to make it for me.  If you get out there and TRY to make this work you will find that it does.  Get over your 5000% markups and make it for a reasonable fee and you will make money.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can try to fool others with your whining and discontent, but I am not fooled.  I know how much you made off your exploits and how hard it was for me to level without your willingness to supply me what I needed.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Don't speak for me or my class who has been at your mercy since game inception.  I for one am happy that you have to sell to players.  That is how the game was designed.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Get over yourself.  Go out and work for it like the rest of us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Why is it that all threads always end like this, no matter who is saying what?</P> <P>The OP posts about THEIR class.  Another class says BOO HOO, we've had it hard, blah blah blah.</P> <P>The OP is posting concerns about their OWN class, which is what they know about.</P> <P>Everyone knows that ALL tradeskill classes have issues.  Can't we at least agree on that?</P> <P>Isn't it up to each class to champion their own cause?  Why is it that when an Alch or Prov complain, it suddenly turns into a bash the OP type of thread?</P> <P>The way I see it, is tradeskillers should be sticking together, not fighting amongst themselves.  Adventurers too, for that matter.  What is happening, is the community is being divided and pitted against each other.  If we ever have any hopes of SOE fixing things in the short term, we need to stop these pointless bashes, and chime in with our own perceived issues, about OUR OWN classes.  Not bash the other classes to make ourselves feel better.</P> <P><U><FONT color=#ffffff><STRONG>Bottom Line:</STRONG></FONT></U></P> <P>Tradeskills and the advertised expectation that an artisan would be equally able to play the game as an adventurer is now no longer true.  The recent patch pretty much killed that ability for ALL classes.  Harvesters (adventurers) are now having a difficult time selling what they harvest, and the economy is severely suffering for many players, crafters and adventurers alike.  Many crafters can't afford to buy from harvesters, and as a result, harvesters (adventurers) cannot afford to buy from crafters.  Artisans that do buy from them, can't price their stuff at an affordable level. Pure artisans want to craft, they don't want to waste time harvesting.  The prior situation was great for us.  We didn't have to harvest, the adventurers did it, and we paid them well for their time and efforts.  They in turn were able to pay our prices.  It wasn't a bad arrangement, IMHO.</P> <P>BUT, There are a great many things that needed fixing before they should have hosed economy entirely, as they did.  Make the game significantly less fun, and ultimately you will have signifcantly less players.  Just take a look at the various MMORPG popularity rating sites.  EQ2 isn't #1 on a single one of them, and it continues to slide downward.  Just why do you think that is?  I think its pretty obvious why.</P> <P>First they should have put in the vendor system that they've been saying they plan on implementing, to allow everyone to actually play the game they are paying to play, while they sell their wares, rather than be a prisoner in their room.  As it is now, a far less percentage of players are able to use it in any meaningful way, than those that can.  Most can only use it while they are sleeping (surprise, most people are sleeping then too, so they aren't buying from you.. PST folks have it the hardest, not only are they sleeping, so are all the later timezones).  Morning server reboots, DHCP resets, dialup accounts, and other factors prevent many tradeskillers from using the existing system to actually make a decent living.</P> <P>Fix the dozens of broken recipes that plague ALL crafters.</P> <P>Add significant and easily visible benefits to crafters stuff (except provisioners, of course, they already have this in a BIG way) that makes their wares something people feel they NEED (like provisioners currently enjoy).  Armor made by a crafter should be MUCH better than anything found while adventuring, to justify the cost of purchasing it, just as an example.</P> <P>Fix the enormous timesink that provisioners suffer from both in the form of their raws being far rarer than others, and the incredible amount of time it takes to make minimal amounts of wares to sell.  This would go a long way towards lowering the prices, and increasing availability.</P> <P>Fix the tons of other issues that players have been screaming about since beta.</P> <P>THEN worry about the economy and things that significantly affect the fun factor of the game.</P> <P>For every "nerf" that is as enormous as this one, there should be an equal amount of "fix" that goes towards improving the "fun factor" which would go a long way to taking the sting out of such extreme actions.  Yes, the economy was beginning to spin out of control, but there was plenty of time left to fix it later and concentrate of fixing the legitimate complaints that so many have been screaming about since beta, and are continuing to scream about.  nVidia 6800 issues, for instance?  Each significant patch like this one, should ALSO include significant fixes!</P> <P>One Star and Flame me if you must, but I know I'm not wrong here...<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Amen!!!</DIV>

[SunT]

<DIV>I agree with most of what you said.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The OP was clearly speaking about ALL crafters.  The love fest that ensued in the following posts was overwhelmingly if not exclusively Alch and Prov point of view.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>These are also overwhelmingly the most vocal whiners about this patch for obvious reasons.  Now they have to work.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is my justification of my point of view.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Other than that I agree with your post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On the economy issue, I do not think it could be delayed.  The Prov and Alch were getting far to wealthy in comparison to the rest of Norrah.  This drove the price of rares etc to astronomical levels in the eyes of the adventurers and casual players.  They would NOT work unless they had Great gains for thier time due to these exploits.  This stifled growth of the rest of the crafters.  If it were to continue any longer it may not have been irreversible.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think they acted hastilly out of need.  I do not agree totaly with the way the 'fixed' the issue.  But I do understand why they made a hasty change.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My reason for responding to this post in the first place was to offer the alternative point fo view.  Those who wished to work could not the way things were prepatch.  Now we can.  The system is still broken but at least everyone can function, not make tons of cash without working for it, but we can function.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I look forward to the next patch, hopefully it will be another improvement.</DIV>

[BWShellShocked]

<DIV>I didn't actually mean to single you out, you were just the last one to post when I got to the end.  I do apologize for that, I should have stated that in my post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And yes, I do agree that something should have been done, but the most significant thing that came out of it, is now there is next to zero money coming into the game, and that has had dire consequences.  My biggest complaint of all, is that this game is still a BETA.  There is no arguing that point.  They add stuff, they take it out, they change it, and so on.  There isn't just one test server, there are 50, and we are paying for the "honor" of beta testing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This isn't something that no one could see coming.  Anyone could see that the economy would get hosed with such enormous payouts.  AND, I might add, those writs that paid so well?  They weren't even in the game when it was released.  They were added in January!  Tasks paid squat when it first came out as well.  Those values were also adjusted upwards in January.  My point is, it is quickly becoming obvious that they haven't a clue what they are doing.  They have changed their "vision" of what EQ2 would be many times in short time the game has been out.  Granted, they have huge competition out there, and I understand they had to rush to market, to a certain extent.  However, if they continue to treat us the way they have, and continue to constantly pull the rug out from under our feet, they only increase the threat of their competitors gaining marketshare.  That's the reality they need to focus on.  Make the game fun again, and we'll stay.  We chose EQ2 for a reason, keep that reason valid, and we'll stay, simple as that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyways, just for the record, I'm a 42 Prov, and 24 Warden.  I'm a dedicated full time crafter.  I am far from rich (1.7pp after 4 months.. saved to buy a horse to make harvesting T4/5 safer/easier.. now I don't want to spend it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.   Basically, the majority of what I've earned, went right back out buying harvests or towards guild dues, and the many other "debts" I have, which incidentally, aren't any different than adventurer's debts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Originally, I chose not to state my class for obvious reasons.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do I think writs/tasks paid too much?  Absolutely.  I just didn't exploit them like others obviously did.  In hind sight, I wish I had :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But, I think only one tier was over priced.  The 4g and 5g rewards were not too much.  They reflected the sheer amount of time that goes into making a single stack of anything.  The 30 min delay between tasks and writs also helped keep it in check.  I honestly figured the 12g and 17g rewards were mistakes, and that they would be adjusted downwards, to a reasonable lvl.  Something like 7-8g.  Now that they are in the order of 10-30s profit, I can no longer afford to even buy fuel.  I can no longer buy from harvesters either.  My 1.7pp will be gone in a week or two at most, if I continue doing writs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Very very few want to pay a fair value for the time invested in making my food/drink.. make that drink, no one ever buys food, its totally worthless except to the solo adventurer, and they don't even want it.  And, when I am actually able to use the vendor?  That's 11pm to 3-4am EST (when my DHCP reset kicks me out of vendor mode).  I get up, put myself back into vendor mode in the morning before work, and then the server reset kicks me back out before I've sold a single thing.. so I don't bother anymore.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Give me a vendor system I can use, make it take a reasonable amount of time to make enough food/drink to be able to support myself via sales, and increase my harvestable nodes to the same level that all others are.  Those are my gripes about my class.  Fix those 3 things, and I'll be happy enough for a little while.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fix the 6800 graphics card issues so that I can actually adventure in full groups and raids, indoors, and I'll be happy for years.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Continue wholesale nerfing and remove my ability to actually enjoy the game, and I'll be gone.  I have patience, and have been practicing it for 4 months now.  My patience is not limitless, and I'll wager most players feel the same way, when it comes right down to it.</DIV>

[Tenafly Vip]

<DIV> <DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT size=2>A few of my observations and perceived facts....</FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT size=2>Facts:</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT size=2> - Interdependency worked brilliantly within Guilds, where all sorts of items are made everyday for FREE. Go it alone in this </FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT size=2>game, and you will miss out on a ton, there is no way to avoid it completely. The only people doing any crying in it's<FONT color=#ffffff> <SPAN>Entirety </SPAN></FONT>are the soloists, if it was the Jewelers & Sages first, then it's the Alchemist and Provisioners now, and to be perfectly honest they have far MORE of a reason to complain then Jewelers & Sages ever did. If you choose to go it alone and you're on your own, you can't have your cake and eat it too. With that said again, changes to help both were warranted, and are still warranted in my opinion, they aren't any better off now, then before, not really. An offline vendor system would've gone along way to ensuring health in supply and demand. Nobody can really say "this componet wasn't being made by these people" 100% truthfully, it was all determined by chance, did any given crafter log in luckly, or unluckly, during the ever fluxuating window of opportunity? The game mechanics got in the way and still do. I keep saying it over, and over, and over, don't blame the symptoms for the disease itself. POOR design from day ONE.</FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT size=2>      </FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT size=2> - Economic changes were definitely in order..... a balanced middle ground definitely needed to be found. </FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT size=2>What we in turn received was a deconstruction, and return to beta, and we are still just as functionally broken. It doesn't matter if it's one, two or ten classes gimped, and it doesn't matter if they constantly change roles, broken is broken and no class should be gutted or useless, ever.... any opinion to the contrary is unabashed stupidity. As the before condition is still present in game, I'll still point out deficiencies and not think twice about it. Crafting/economy is worse off today then a week ago, we have swung from one exterme to the other the latest unforgiving, time will show this to be true. </FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT size=2> - The current system can't support itself, it is unhealthy, because the current "new money" being brought into the </FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT size=2>environment isn't enough to support the Crafting public at the new inflated overhead. If you base your change assumptions on the premise of a player to player only driven market, then I'd ask... "How much money needs to be in the market, and changing hands to ensure the health of all players? How does that money enter the market and at what rate does new money need to enter to ensure a health environment for all? How did you effectively judge this, and thus create a system that is flexible enough to withstand implementation across multiservers, with their contrasts, and different numbers of players? Did you factor this in?" There seems to be alot of things unconsidered by this Dev team.... they work primarily in theory and that is why most of these fixes are totatlly impractical. You can't increase cost and drive down prices, and then expect players, (because this is a game and not the real world) to stare at ingame walls for hours on end. There is a funfactor involved..... which leads me to the next. </FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT size=2>         </FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT size=2>         </FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT size=2>- And so the newer players are suffering the most as they walk into a crafting system, which is punishing without a bankroll to derive </FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT size=2>from, so this current climate is only meant in my opinion to bleed money out of the game for the time being, and will change yet again, </FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT size=2>not balance, or tweak, but change. Once it's realized only the poor will truely suffer from all this..... they wanted to stop the minority, so they punished the whole... they now want to drain the bank of the minority, so they again punish the whole.... philosophically stupid really. Less is more, a concept that should be applied more in dealing with EQ2s economy. 90% of the problems could've been addressed simply and without raising the overall ire of so many paying customers... Taking the real world economics into account when theorizing is a good thing, but only if you remember you are applying them to a completely artificial enviroment, and thus so very controllable in ways the real world is not, yet another example I can give is this, they want to stop wholesale </FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT size=2>acquisition of massive wealth, which I might add is pure speculation (100PP - 600PP) not saying it's impossible just not the overwhelming majority </FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT size=2>based. Cap the bank/inventory at 10 or 25 or 50 or whatever number of predetermined PP per player, that would be a much better way of </FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT size=2>controlling the entire economy, by controlling and being able to calculate the exact number of currency within, ALL of them. </FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT size=2>- If you're going to offer high end opulent items for purchase to a player base or course many will become driven in their desire to attain such items.... 3PP, 10 PP, 50PP mounts.... multi-PP dwellings...sometime the mule actually want to eat that carrot being dangled in front of it. </FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>

[LumpusDaGno]

<DIV>Ink is not a final product, it is an interim product.  As such, you are not expected to make money on them.  They made this pretty clear by allowing all players to make their own inks thus eliminating the need to buy them from anyone else.  You should break even selling them to NPCs (not counting the cost of raw materials) and those sellback values should be adjusted so you're not taking a loss.  But interim products are not meant to be profitable any more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To make money, you must sell to players.  Players do not need your interrim products, only your finished goods. As an alchemist, that means you must sell potions and poisons to players to make money tradeskilling.  The problem with that, at least for alchemists, is that the players have yet to realize the value and potential of potions and poisons.  Not to mention many of them are probably still borked.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I feel bad for anyone who started an alchemist wanting to make potions and poisons but the situation should turn around for them sooner or later.  I don't feel bad for those who did it only to plunder their fellow crafters' wallets, never intending to make a single alchemist finshed product.</DIV>

[Bewk]

<DIV>The people with the most money set the prices in this game.  If you have too much of a gap between them pricing goes crazy.  If you have 50, 000 gold to burn why do you car if the drink you are drinking costs 50silver or 80silver it does not concern you.  If you have 5 gold to your name the differnce between 50 and 80 silver is a huge deal.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am a provisioner if I know I can sell something for 80 silver then that is what I am going to price it.  It does not matter that 90% of the population can't afford it because they didn't decide to be a crafter or more specificly a Alchemist or provisioner.  The people with the most money set the prices and the more they have the less it will matter to them what they pay and the more crafters can raid prices.  Does no one else see a problem with this? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hell I am a provisioner and I can't even lower my prices if I wanted before this change.  If I lowered the prices on my drinks too much some rich fat [FAAR-NERFED!] would buy my stuff and sell it for the going rate and screw over the broke people.  I am glad it changed and prioce will lower because of it.  It already have I have dropped my prices to match the worth I have placed on my time and resources and guess what the Alchemist making 50 plat a day is too scared to by my stuff now and tie up their "hard earned" cash.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>good job Sony.  Now the whiners need to go find their cash cow else where. I mean really are you all trying to compensate for something with these visions of granduer? It's a game.  </DIV>

[Cynfulo]

As an adventurer I find it extremely difficult to make money. I am lvl 35Defiler/17Outfitter and have 3g in the bank. In total I have managed to make 24gold in vendor mode since release and not sold a single crafted item as there is virtually no market for the lower end items or subcomponents. I simply don't bother buying food and drink as I can't afford crafted stuff. At one stage I was earning my money buying books from the broker that were being offered for less than merchants would buy them. I struggle to sell tier 3 or 4 components for anything more than 15coppers although a handful of the food components will sell for 1sp occasionally, most tier 1 or 2 components won't even sell for 1cp. I have no spell above Adept 1 as I can't afford to even buy adept 1 for most spells. And trust me, I play greed before need with any group that will accept it.

[Lig]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SunTsu wrote:<BR> <DIV>I agree with most of what you said.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The OP was clearly speaking about ALL crafters.  The love fest that ensued in the following posts was overwhelmingly if not exclusively Alch and Prov point of view.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>These are also overwhelmingly the most vocal whiners about this patch for obvious reasons.  Now they have to work.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is my justification of my point of view.</DIV> <DIV>__________________________________________________ _____________________________________________</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>You know.. I don't know a single provisioner that is crying about this patch. I am provisioner and I'm not crying. I have always said this patch was a good thing. I know I can't make money like mad but I don't think that we should be able to anyways. Maybe I'm not crying so much because my fuel prices are actually reasonable so I can still do things for a reasonable price.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They had to stop the inflow of so much money. I think any reasonable person can see that. You can't have people with 100's of platinum pieces and some with nothing. In any case the flow of such huge amounts of money into the economy with no where to sink it was rediculous. I'm just sick of people telling me I overprice my drink when all I am trying to do is make a profit for my time. People treat my time as if it should be worth no money at all and that gets my goat. Sorry if I was a bit aggresive in my posts but I am starting to get defensive about it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In any case I think that the patch was a MUST stop gap and now they can work on a system that actually works but at least they stopped the crazy production of "new" money.</DIV>

[Amise]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SunTsu wrote:<BR> <DIV>THe cornerstone of Crafting was too busy lining thier pockets in thier little rooms to make what the rest of the society needed.  <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I can't believe so few people are aware that Chems can be made available on society vendors.  If you had spent more time levelling up your society instead of crying about how evil alchemists are you'd be a lot better off.  The "cornerstone of crafting" was only so because people did not wish to put the work into levelling their crafting societies.</DIV>

[Ottomat]

<DIV>Please see my post and add any constructive criticism.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=7195" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=7195</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[SunT]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cynfulone wrote:<BR>As an adventurer I find it extremely difficult to make money. I am lvl 35Defiler/17Outfitter and have 3g in the bank. In total I have managed to make 24gold in vendor mode since release and not sold a single crafted item as there is virtually no market for the lower end items or subcomponents. I simply don't bother buying food and drink as I can't afford crafted stuff. At one stage I was earning my money buying books from the broker that were being offered for less than merchants would buy them. I struggle to sell tier 3 or 4 components for anything more than 15coppers although a handful of the food components will sell for 1sp occasionally, most tier 1 or 2 components won't even sell for 1cp. I have no spell above Adept 1 as I can't afford to even buy adept 1 for most spells. And trust me, I play greed before need with any group that will accept it.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Case and point.</P> <P>This is the reality of the old system.</P> <P>This is 90% of Norrah.  Make no Mistake.</P> <P>There are rich fat crafters who took advantage of EXPLOITS in pricing and the rest of Norrah scratched to pay for their basic needs.  Those crafters drove prices thru the roof outfitting thier alts and homes.  To add insult ot injury they failed to provide the basic needs they were designed to provide and stifled growth of the dependent classes.</P> <P>The two classes who did this are Alchemists and Provisioners.  The latter to a lesser extent.</P> <P>As for the 'level your society comment,' that is ridiculous.  There were NO societies even close to providing tier four WORTS when I hit tier four.  It is a totally impractical solution and a silly justification for your actions, one I will not accept.  </P> <P>Pigs get Fat, Hogs get Slaughtered.  Unfortunaltely when you were slaughtered we all got messy.  Only difference is you still have a pile of Plat, while the rest of Norrah is still broke and crafting is a near immpossible way to make money while leveling.  And the crafting issues are still here for all classes like drop rates and quested quality vs crafted.</P>

[Tenafly Vip]

<DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>SunTsu wrote:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> <HR> <EM>Cynfulone wrote:<BR>As an adventurer I find it extremely difficult to make money. I am lvl 35Defiler/17Outfitter and have 3g in the bank. In total I have managed to make 24gold in vendor mode since release and not sold a single crafted item as there is virtually no market for the lower end items or subcomponents. I simply don't bother buying food and drink as I can't afford crafted stuff. At one stage I was earning my money buying books from the broker that were being offered for less than merchants would buy them. I struggle to sell tier 3 or 4 components for anything more than 15coppers although a handful of the food components will sell for 1sp occasionally, most tier 1 or 2 components won't even sell for 1cp. I have no spell above Adept 1 as I can't afford to even buy adept 1 for most spells. And trust me, I play greed before need with any group that will accept it.</EM><BR> <HR> </DIV> <P><FONT size=2>Case and point.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>This is the reality of the old system.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>This is 90% of Norrah.  Make no Mistake.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00 size=3><SPAN>The point is the fact this problem still exists in game. This isn't a new / old system issue but a current system issue. At level 35, the above player's needs are still not going to be met. Due to increased Fuel costs.... a Level 35 craftsman of any profession is going to charge Tier appropriate prices, if an pure Adventurer isn't able to afford Tier upgrades (<EM>make no mistake 17 outfitter isn't very much</EM>) then it isn't a trade skill problem, it's a systemic problem where an insufficient amount of "new money" is entering the market via loot, or monetary quest rewards. This hasn't changed, because quest items are inherently better then crafted items at the moment. It's like running thru a hedge maze, though there are many different options open to you with the naked eye, most are in fact dead ends. And this still boils down to playing this game, as intended by SOE.... they may not dictate that you do it one way, but the mechanics of it force you, or at least steer you, in that one direction. You are right that 90% of the player base is finding it hard to earn, that is the key problem unto itself.</SPAN></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>There are rich fat crafters who took advantage of EXPLOITS in pricing and the rest of Norrah scratched to pay for their basic needs.  Those crafters drove prices thru the roof outfitting thier alts and homes.  To add insult ot injury they failed to provide the basic needs they were designed to provide and stifled growth of the dependent classes.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00 size=3><SPAN>A very very common misconception that crafters inflated prices, its supply and demand that accomplishes that (see Broker / Merchant mode problems below). And there was no injury, or insult, done to any player by any player, if some suffered it was due to poor design, just look at all the ALTing the fact remains that the whining soloist engaged in this practice to avoid interdependency, from day one. Again it's a choice to go it alone, and with choice come consequence. It may come as a great surprise to many, to hear but a large number of items and components change hands without money involved. Guilded crafters, do craft for their guilds, and trade goods for the mutual good, the system rewards this kind of player richly. While the broker and merchant mode in this game PUNISHES those players who want to be independents (revisit hedge maze above). You roll the dice when seeking your needs on the open market, it boils down to luck, currently. This system is fundamentally flawed because it is ineffective for player to player transactions, and inflammatory in nature itself.... if yours is the only fuzzywooblestick on the market currently, human nature dictates you raise your price to maximize your profit margin, you did after all make a pristine fuzzywooblestick for the purpose of selling it for monetary gain. Again, don't blame the symptoms for the disease itself, this economy is still horribly busted, due to extremism.... in conclusion the market place does need to be regulated, but there are simple ways of accomplishing that.... this current system isn't one of them, and no one should have to scratch for anything, in a game environment, so we still sit and wait....</SPAN></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>The two classes who did this are Alchemists and Provisioners.  The latter to a lesser extent.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>As for the 'level your society comment,' that is ridiculous.  There were NO societies even close to providing tier four WORTS when I hit tier four.  It is a totally impractical solution and a silly justification for your actions, one I will not accept.  </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00 size=3><SPAN>Where you may be right that NO societies are close to Tier 4, the premise remains that this was how it was meant, and going to be in game at some point.... all these component eventually being unlocked on NPC merchants.... it is neither ridiculous or silly. But as the game was experiencing growing pains, because this hadn't yet come into fruition, then a much simpler fix was there to be explored, simply unlock all WORTs now. If you want to cast blame on perceived exploiters, then that is in some ways understandable, but place it correctly on all the introverted players, because all those Alt-Alchemist are equally to blame, or even more so, then the pure, or guilded Alchemist, and many of those cheering today where exploiting thru Alts yesterday... Buy back needed to be adjusted, no argument there, but what just happened to this games Trade Skill half was entirely uncalled for, and a pure and simply MONEY SINK, and thus an exploitation of a player base. Nothing constructive can come from class infighting, and name calling, focus on the Devs, they hold final say and power over the environment, question their motives and second guess them.... it's not an insult, it's constructive and conducive to a better finished product. </SPAN></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>Pigs get Fat, Hogs get Slaughtered.  Unfortunaltely when you were slaughtered we all got messy.  Only difference is you still have a pile of Plat, while the rest of Norrah is still broke and crafting is a near immpossible way to make money while leveling.  And the crafting issues are still here for all classes like drop rates and quested quality vs crafted.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00 size=3><SPAN><SPAN>This is where it starts to get contradictive, and you lose anyone reading your post. I don't think your view of the situation is dramatically different from anyone else’s, but it gets pushed behind those biased remarks, I can understand being frustrated with the game, but I don't get how bashing other crafters as a whole helps. True some had it better, thru no fault of their own.... symptom.... now everyone suffers when nobody should, because of the true disease. </SPAN></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>

[Suraklin]

<DIV>This change to crafting is basically only going to hurt people who have just decided to start crafting as a way to make extra money for buying things they need in game. Or people who want to level up something like alchemy to make inks for their spells if they can't find any on market. Or don't want to pay what a current alchemist is charging for ink they need. The people who exploited(really wasn't an exploit tho because SOE programmed the writs to pay as much as they did) their way to 50 and got filthy rich don't care now. They're 50 and don't have to level their crafting up anymore. They've bought all the really expensive items they wanted like the 9 plat horse etc. They're not going to buy anything to take a large chunk of their money unless it's something really uber. So they're not being punished at all. Eventhough, I don't think they should've been punished for doing what SOE made available for them to do. SOE screwed up the economy not Alchemist or Provisioners. They made the writs do big payouts. So what does SOE do when they screw up this big? They change crafting in such a way that even people who didn't do writs to make a lot of money have a very difficult time selling what they craft. In my opinion Interdependency should be brought back because everyone other than provisioner really got screwed over by SOE with this change.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only way I see provisioners ever lowering their price is if the recipes for food/drink make multiple items. If you get multiple items and fill up your inventory fast you're going to want to sell them cheap to clear inventory so you have more room so you can craft more food/drink to continue leveling up crafting. The people who are already level 50 won't start lowering their prices though until they have a lot of other level 50 crafters selling food/drink also.</DIV>

[Xanth]

<DIV>I keep hearing in all these posts that my time is worth more than this or how can you put a price on my time.  This is ludacris.  This is a Freakin' game people.  I game.  You are not supposed to be worried about your time.  Have fun.  Do what you want to do.  If you want to craft then craft.  If you want to adventure than do so.  Everyone should not be running around thinking, "Oh, I bet his time cost a lot and he probably won't make what I need since I can't afford his TIME."  Come on.  I guess I am going to have to call Bungie Studios and ask them when they are going to start paying me for my time that I am playing their GAME.  In fact, I am going to have to make a lot of calls since I play a lot of games.  It is about time they start paying me for all my hard work playing their games.  I am glad this was brought up.  I want money for playing other peoples games.  My time is worth too darn much to just sit there, play games, and not get paid.  Whatever, your time is worth squat.  You either want to craft and enjoy it or you don't want to craft because you don't enjoy it.  End of story...</DIV>

[Lig]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xanther wrote:<BR> <DIV>I keep hearing in all these posts that my time is worth more than this or how can you put a price on my time.  This is ludacris.  This is a Freakin' game people.  I game.  You are not supposed to be worried about your time.  Have fun.  Do what you want to do.  If you want to craft then craft.  If you want to adventure than do so.  Everyone should not be running around thinking, "Oh, I bet his time cost a lot and he probably won't make what I need since I can't afford his TIME."  Come on.  I guess I am going to have to call Bungie Studios and ask them when they are going to start paying me for my time that I am playing their GAME.  In fact, I am going to have to make a lot of calls since I play a lot of games.  It is about time they start paying me for all my hard work playing their games.  I am glad this was brought up.  I want money for playing other peoples games.  My time is worth too darn much to just sit there, play games, and not get paid.  Whatever, your time is worth squat.  You either want to craft and enjoy it or you don't want to craft because you don't enjoy it.  End of story...</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>And you can also charge whatever you want for "YOUR TIME" since it's a game and you get to do what you want. The economy is very similer to those in the real world... and although I agree that you should enjoy the game, part of that enjoyment is the interaction with other REAL people. Sometimes those real people want you to do things in game that are not all that fun but you do it anyways because you have developed a relationship. Sometimes you want something in the game (armor) so you need to spend time doing something you don't love (cooking) to get that. It is still time you spent and you can still want game compensation for it. Fine it's not my time you are paying for it is my characters time, and my character thinks her time is valuable.<BR>

[Solarax]

here is a simpler idea.how can i craft at all if my items are not selling even at a loss and selling to merchant looses so much money i cant make enough to buy fuel alone.

[Lanily]

<DIV>Agree with the original post, this change has been the most idiot one.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The attune thing is good - but the removal of interdependancy and the change of margin for NPC sellbacks is idiot. While it was amusing to have tradeskill classes to make money to be able to buy new things at every level, today it takes money to gain tradeskill level (product creation cancelled, fuels components were still consumed anyone?).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sadly, Sony - who pretends to be listening to players - doesnt care about what we are saying. He doesnt care about the fact that 75% of the tradeskillers (based on my guild) have stopped tradeskilling, because its simply not good for anything anymore.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am sad they are such idiots (either idiot, either cruel, I hope they are just idiots). Changing the whole system because there have been some abused recipes is silly. They should have only changed the abusive recipes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Adventuring is still a blast though - and yes I can make money with it. But I need to spend money gained on upgrades, cant finance my tradeskills. Maybe at lvl 50 it will be different - its just sad you have to ding 50 and Then you can spend money on tradeskills.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lani</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>