Not quite sure where to post this, but here I go anyway

[Warhawk85]

<DIV> <P>I have a few things to talk about regarding the changes on 2/17/05.</P> <P> </P> <P>1) Horse speed nerf:</P> <P><SPAN>           </SPAN>Rank 1 horse was 32% is now 24%<SPAN>  </SPAN>;<SPAN>   </SPAN>price was 2.5 pp now is 2.5pp</P> <P><SPAN>           </SPAN>Rank 2 horse was 40% is now 32%<SPAN>  </SPAN>;<SPAN>   </SPAN>price was 3.9?pp now is 5pp</P> <P><SPAN>           </SPAN>Rank 3 horse was 48% is now 40%<SPAN>  </SPAN>;<SPAN>   </SPAN>price was 9.5?pp now is 8pp</P> <P> </P> <P>If your sole reason (so I have read) for slowing horse movement is because they were being used to escape combat situations, not for true travel (so you have stated as the reason for the blanket speed reduction), you really messed up on this one. A smart step, if the aforementioned is true, would be to penalize horse movement speed in combat situations, just like you do players…it cannot be that hard. Or, if this is not acceptable, have horses dispelled (like when they go thru water), for lack of a better word, whenever fighting is initiated. By changing it the way you have, you have contradicted your reason for having horses around…faster easier travel.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>2) Attunement of almost all items/equipment:</P> <P> </P> <P>I have read two different “official” reasons from SOE for this:</P> <P><SPAN>           </SPAN>a) Too many player made equipment in the market (dev chat I think)</P> <P><SPAN>           </SPAN>b) Too many dropped items in the market (SOE chat done by Casters Realm)</P> <P>Well, which one is it? Both reasons aside, this is a horrible move. Moorgard posted this change on test server at appx 1030pm on February 15…it went live, unannounced, late morning/noonish(1030am where I live) on February 17. I say unannounced because it was not a posted patch on the MB. I had been on the MB looking for any update info one hour before that, and there was nothing posted about anything. Then, I check again before I have to leave for the day, and bam! There it is live as can be. If I wanted to play on a trivial loot game, my primary EQ1 server would have been FV. I know, attunement is not TRUE trivial loot play, but it is close enough. I have several characters, and cannot afford to keep up more than one. You have made it too cost prohibitive, what with needing to start all over every few lvls. As of the 17th, I have not attuned anything, nor do I plan on it. Unless blanket attunement is removed, my playtime, and money, will be with my long term EQ1 acct, and City Of Heroes.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>3) Entertainment spells:</P> <P> </P> <P>Get rid of them. They are worthless, and serve no purpose but to suck 15odd silver out of players’ pockets. If you get rid of them, no one can complain about them.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>4) Paladin/Shadow Knight horse:</P> <P> </P> <P>Get rid of them as an entertainment spell. You stated you reduced the speed from 32%(I think it was) to 10%. All other classes are still going to scream and shout that is still has worth, that all the other entertainment spells are just eye candy. I am not saying get rid of the Paladin/Shadow Knight mounts altogether, just make them gained differently. A Paladin is a Holy Knight; a Shadow Knight is an Unholy Knight. In fantasy, the knight has a magnificent steed, Glorious and Shining for the Holy Warrior, Terrible and Dark for the Unholy Warrior. If I recall correctly from my pencil and paper gaming days, the Paladin, upon reaching a certain lvl, could call to him, a holy mount. My game master required us to undertake a quest to gain our Holy mount. Once gained, this mount stayed with the Paladin for 10 years, at which time it’s service was done, and it would leave (perhaps that was just the way my game master ran things, I cannot remember). If the Paladin desired another Holy Mount, he must repeat the process. This could be an interesting addition, or replacement, to the current system. Make the first mount quest available at lvl 20, when you first become a knight, again at lvl 30, lvl 40, lvl 50. Make each mount noticeably faster, and better looking, than the last, give us a goal to attain. At the current 10% speed boost our entertainment spell grants, all we have is a broken winded, swaybacked, bowlegged, broken down old nag.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>5) Insulting sellback for Attuned items:</P> <P> </P> <P>Most of the posts I have read on this report an average of 4-8% sellback price. This is just insulting. This goes back to subject #2. I read a post on one of the EQ2 message boards on this subject, and remember one part in particular: comparing the pitiful sellback price to tipping a waitress…it is more insulting to tip her a few pennies (attuneables that you can sell to npc venders) then to tip her nothing at all (true trivial loot code). We the players are the waitresses that have been tipped a few pennies by SOE.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>6) Latest change for tradeskill item sellback:</P> <P> </P> <P>Your have played around with this several times. You do not want “New Money” coming into the Economy thru npc merchants. You claim too much “New Money” is being created this way. On a lvl 10 chemistry combine (taking this info from my lvl 15 sage in the making), which used to cost 6copper for a candle, 6 copper for liquid<SPAN> </SPAN>, and the main component, which runs 2-6 copper off broker (for our example, we will use the average of this, 4 copper), for a pristine combine of 4 sellable items, I would make 20 copper (5 copper vender buyback each). We have 16 copper in cost, 20 copper sales, for a grand profit of 4 copper per pristine combine. No one is going to crush the EQ2 economy on that poor profit margin. With 6 bags, with 6 slots each (what I have), doing the max number of combines (180), everything ending up pristine (720 units), multiply that by 5 copper (vender buyback price), makes 14,400 copper from vender. You have 2520 average cost. This leaves you 11880 copper profit (1 gold, 18 silver, 80 copper). Looks like a big pretty big number for just sitting around pressing buttons you say. Well, let us get into more mechanics. Say it takes 1 minute to do each pristine combine…you have now been there for 180 minutes…3 hours. Lets say it takes 2 min per pristine combine…6 hours for 1 gold, 18 silver, 80 copper. Remember, this is average profit…it could be 50% either way depending on what I can get raw for. At this rate, I am well on my way to untold riches…well, that or brain damage from unparalleled boredom! Now, to keep me from this bonanza of copper, you have made it so I get NO profit at all, no matter how small. You need to permit for some small amount of profit. Adventurers go out, kill stuff, and they can profit by loot….that is their reward. Tradeskillers put in the same amount of time, at times with the same, or greater amount of risk at certain workstations (forge, chemistry table, sewing machine are grand damage dealers), with no group support, and we gain nothing. You have not lived until you have hit the proper counter at the forge and STILL take 521 damage…with a health pool of 761.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>7) Insult bone thrown to Tradeskillers (weekend xp bonus)</P> <P> </P> <P>A blatant attempt to divert our attention from the recent changes. “Hmmmm, look at the Tradeskillers scream….I KNOW! Double their xp’s for the weekend, but give no advance notice!!! That should shut them up for a while!” Pass. You will not placate me with that lame bone. I refuse to jump thru that hoop.</P> <P> </P> <P><img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Nonexistent sales/food changes:</P> <P> </P> <P>I have a lvl 25 provisioner. I spend a good deal of time selling my tasty treats. Now, before you start screaming “PRICE GOUGING COOK!!!”,<SPAN>  </SPAN>read on. I do not price gouge. I am routinely one of the lowest pricers in Freeport. What little T1 supplies I still have, usually sells for 1 silver, regardless of what it is. T2 usually goes for 2 silver, T3 for 3 silver. Occasionally I will up the price for a T2 very high duration item to 3 silver, and T3 very high duration to 4 silver. The T3 increase is mostly due to a 50 or 52 copper increase in fuel. The other part is due to the 25% increase in regen (food or drink) output). I do not think that is an unreasonable markup. In 36 hours of selling, I have made 77 silver…all of that was on the first 8 hour day (2/17/05). I have sold nothing since. I asked around in the Freeport crafters chat if I was the only one having a hard time moving anything, and no, I was not. The general feedback I got was the same…poor to non-existent sales. You may say I am getting what I deserve, being a meal ol price gouging cook, and I direct you to the previous text. You want to see price gouging? Take a look at the 12 silver white tea…THAT is price gouging. Raws are going higher every day. Take into account what I have to go thru just to get one product made. We either factor in higher raw prices, or take the time to gather it ourselves. I agree price gouging makes the game less enjoyable. I agree food prices have gone thru the roof; this applies to finished as well as raw items. Before the 2/17/05 patch, I would routinely sell out of my food/drink…but now? Nothing. Being a provisioner is how I supply my other<SPAN>  </SPAN>characters with funds for equipment upgrades. I do not do bad, but I am far from rich. Since starting play in the beginning of December, I have made 18 gold profit. I currently have 5 gold left after supplying my lvl 23 Fury and my lvl 21 Paladin. I cannot afford to spend that 5 gold on my other characters. There is simply not enough money. I now have to choose one character, and hope I can make the money somewhere to replace the degrading gear ever 5 or so lvls.</P> <P> </P> <P>I greatly dislike the npc sold/ summoned food nerf. It was a very bad idea. This punishes those new to the game, and those who have little. In essence, SOE is saying, “Let them eat cake!!”. We know what happened when the peasants were told that. They revolted, and put Marie Antoinette down! I can only guess from the lack of sales, that no one is buying anything, or just plain not playing.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Many folks will agree with me, many will not. A lot of you will say, if you do not like the game, quit, go away, shut up. At the end of my current subscription, if changes are not made for the better, I will, but as the money is currently spent, I will stay, wait and see. I gain nothing from leaving at this time. Lastly, for those of you who think you are witty and will ask, “Can I have your stuff?”…do yourself a favor and don’t, it just makes you look stupid.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Washu Lvl 11 Summoner, lvl 25 Provisioner</P> <P>Keeshah Silverfang, lvl 23 Fury, lvl 15 Scholar (dreams of Sage)</P> <P>Bjornen, lvl 21 Paladin, lvl 15 Outfitter (dreams of Armorsmith)</P> <P>At the moment, my other characters do not matter…</P> <P></P> <P></P> <P></P> <P></P> <P> </P></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Warhawk85 on <SPAN class=date_text>02-21-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:13 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Warhawk85 on <span class=date_text>02-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:40 PM</span>

[Vergin]

<DIV>Great post, I agree 110%</DIV>

[cheungc]

<DIV>I agree with most of your post. The last patch was a bit hard to swallow. I think changes should be made slowly rather then doing a over haul. The problem is soe is trying to hard too satisfy everyone. Now they have to deal with the unhappy ones. Guess you cant make everyone happy. My advice OP,take a few days off. Your stressing over a game which you obviously play too much. These games have that effect on ppl. Its only been 4 months, give the Devs a chance. They deserve that much!   Its still a good game which would have been alot better(I think) if the Devs were given more time instead of being rushed to launch the game.  </DIV>

[cheungc]

<DIV>I agree with most of your post. The last patch was a bit hard to swallow. I think changes should be made slowly rather then doing a over haul. The problem is soe is trying to hard too satisfy everyone. Now they have to deal with the unhappy ones. Guess you cant make everyone happy. My advice OP,take a few days off. Your stressing over a game which you obviously play too much. These games have that effect on ppl. Its only been 4 months, give the Devs a chance. They deserve that much!   Its still a good game which would have been alot better(I think) if the Devs were given more time instead of being rushed to launch the game.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>errrr double the peaching?  </DIV><p>Message Edited by cheungcdh on <span class=date_text>02-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:21 AM</span>

[Maldian]

<DIV>I agree 110% as well. The tradeskilling nerf really screwed alot of people over. Now you have no way of making money. Think about this... you spend half of your money buying "Specific" candles due to your level. Once you make 40 you jump from 2s and some change to NINE SILVER and some change. Then you expect the tradeskillers to turn around and sell the stuff at their cost?!?! Has SOE lost their mind? I am not suprised if the tradeskillers stop working. What is the point in it if they can't make money?</DIV>

[Kasandria]

Here here! Excellant post. I agree with everything.

[VampiressAnn]

<DIV> <DIV>well, i still feel that we should be entitled to some kind of compensation from the vendor, even if its only 10% sellback, due to all the massive amount of time we spend to craft a finish product,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>this break even sellback is horrible, it is really discouraging to a crafter to spend hours making a product, only to be rewarded with a break even buy back.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>now, of course our dream is to be able to put it up on our merchant and sell it to another player for a profit, but if it does not sell , in the limited amount of time that you can have it on your broker system, due to there being no online or off line selling in this game,</DIV> <DIV>to wind up having to sell it back to a vendor for break even , after all that work you put into it, is heartbreaking, </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>again, even a 10% profit would be nice, and 10% would not generate alot of "new money" into the economy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>also the workshop task rewards need to be approved, as it stands right now, that is alot time, money and running around, you spend in doing one of those, for the reward you get.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>on the horse nerf issue, again, I dont agree with that change either, people work really hard to save up that kind of money to buy a horse, and the main purpose of them is for faster travel,</DIV> <DIV>so they should be fast, so you can gallop wildly over the mountain tops, etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if folks were using them to get out of combat situations, maybe they could implement something to were as if they tried to run from battle on a horse, the prey could use stun on them , therefore slowing the person down, then people would not be running from battles on them as often if they new they were going to get stunned.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>things i do like about the changes:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. having everyone be able to level up the interims and make them theirselves, was a fantastic change !!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. the vitality bonus is awesome !!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV>

[Shade]

<DIV>Your 1st post here ??? Good for you !!! 6 stars for you, uhm well 5 at least. Very well written post, actually makes sense amongst the angry and knee jerk threads popping up on this board. I agree 110 % but the problem is, finding a better solution.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Scratch that... problem is getting SOE to actually attention to "feedback", unfortunately no matter how well written your post will largely be ignored or be flammed by less open minded players to come. Hope things turn out better but it's not lookinig good for now. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Shae. </DIV>

[Encantador]

<DIV>I disagree with so much of this post....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Horses are still the easiest, most convenient, way to travel around. Why the fiddling around with pricing I do not know, but this is hardly something to complain about. If you think they are too expensive don't use them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Attunement is necessary OR another way to remove items from the game is needed. If you don't like attunement, how about Item decay? or losing one item at random every time you die? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why take 'fun' things out of the game? Okay I have not bought my 'fun' spells because they are not very fun. I will not demand SOE take them out of the game though, those do think they are fun are welcome to buy them. Only the horses were out of wack.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have no argument with your suggestion that horses be a reward for a quest. Why not? but add other quests which give equal transport rewards for other classes. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Attuned item sellback prices are bad. I do agree they could do with a boost.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Your figures for producing the WORTs are very wrong. Even if I accept your costs and sale prices, the prices for the lowest quality item was exactly the same as for a pristine and they take about 10 seconds to make not 2 minutes. So 30 minutes to do all the combines.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yeah it was dumb of them to double TS exp for 2 days without any notice. But at least it got people crafting again. The crafting statiosn were very busy at peak time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ah the meat of your post. I thought you were going to say you are an alchemist. Provisioners have some valid complaints perhaps you should add your comments to theirs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV>

[Dracl]

<DIV>I don't agree with either the "fun" spell removal suggestion or the [FAAR-NERFED!] about horse speed.  I have a paladin and HATE that the speed was reduced...but...it's a fun spell...not a speed spell.  I recommend you help players figure out that "fun" does not mean "dd", "dot", "buff", "heal", "debuff", or any other type of offense or defense related spell.  It's the opposite of those.  It's supposed to do nothing but add some flavor to the game.</DIV>

[Warhawk85]

<DIV>My figures for producing Eolith Temper are wrong? I do not think so. Perhaps you did not understand. This is a lvl 10 recipie. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You need raw iron/electrum/turquoise(primary componant)...this goes for a minimum of 2 copper on the broker...i will not pay more than 6 copper for it...there is where i get 4 copper average price. Liquid is 6 copper, candle is 6 copper. Mind you, this was before 2/17/5.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Adding up those figures, we have a average cost for one combine of Eolith Temper is 16 copper. A pristine combine gets you a return of 4 Eolith Tempers. So far we have spent 16 copper. Each Temper sells back to the npc vender for 5 copper. 4 Tempers at 5 copper each is 20 copper. 16 copper for cost, 20 copper sellback, equals 4 copper profit per combine. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To get pristine takes more than 10 seconds. Yes, the crude version sells for just as much as the pristine, but you only get ONE crude as opposed to FOUR pristine. If you go the crude route, you loose 11 copper per combine. In my original post, I gave the figgure of 1 minute per Pristine combine. This may or may not be accurate time for a pristine combine, I cannot remember. 180 pristine combines may take 30 seconds each, they may take 1 minute each, or 2 minutes each. Even if it is 30 seconds each, and not my origial posted number of 1 minute each, you still would have 90 minutes of effort for your 180 possible pristine combines.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My entire idea of a Mount Quest for the Knight classes, is that they are Knights. Knights and mounts go together. They went together in EQ1, they go together in EQ2, so apparently the folks in charge agree.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Encantador]

<DIV>You did not say which combine you were doing. Since you were talking about making money I presumed you would use an example which was really profitable. Try redoing your example using Sycamore Wash or Trinoid. Both level 10 recipes. The first is similar to temper but sold back for 50cp. The second, cost 5 fuel ,1 liquid, 4 electrums and 1 tuber .... say 56cp ... and allowed you to sell the 4 loams at 33cp each ... 132cp ... and still left you with the 4 Trinoids to use for ink or sell. [Does anyone remember the sell back for trinoid?]. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is all moot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Alchemists have had their money spinner taken away. All tradeskillers who produced sub-components have  effectively had a cap put on the price they can charge for their output. Tradeskillers who relied on others can be self-sufficient. The net effect should be to reduce the cost of producing final combines by quite a bit. I estimate these changes will at least halve the cost of buying the sub-components. Of course this leaves a lot of questions, like 'will anyone produce sub-components at the price others will buy?'. This sort of question can only be answered one way, by the market.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Whether this will reduce the price of the final products is another question we will have to wait for the market to answer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Bewk]

<DIV>I disagree with nearly this entire post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you create increased sell back then the tradeskiller would also be able to sell it back to the merchant.  Then we have the same issue they just fixed.  Why would a tradeskiller sell to a PC for a marginally higher price and maybe not sell when you can chain make a ton of the stuff and sell to the vendor for a little less? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Using the EQ 1 model for horses was a bad idea.  When a SK or a Palladin had a horse in EQ1 they earned it. It was not given to them as in EQ2.  Its a freebie it should suck.  Want a good one earn it like everyone else.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Food still sells as a matter of fact there is a lot mor of it for sale now. I am a teir 5 provisioner tasks where wrong and needed taken away.  Prices will not lower by much except in unusaul circumstances though because the time it takes to make the stuff remains the same. Until multiple combines are available this will not change.  </DIV>

[Bleusong]

i agree with post completely<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> thanks<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Blindrage]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Warhawk85 wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P>I have a few things to talk about regarding the changes on 2/17/05.</P> <P> </P> <P>1) Horse speed nerf:</P> <P><SPAN>           </SPAN>Rank 1 horse was 32% is now 24%<SPAN>  </SPAN>;<SPAN>   </SPAN>price was 2.5 pp now is 2.5pp</P> <P><SPAN>           </SPAN>Rank 2 horse was 40% is now 32%<SPAN>  </SPAN>;<SPAN>   </SPAN>price was 3.9?pp now is 5pp</P> <P><SPAN>           </SPAN>Rank 3 horse was 48% is now 40%<SPAN>  </SPAN>;<SPAN>   </SPAN>price was 9.5?pp now is 8pp</P> <P> </P> <P>If your sole reason (so I have read) for slowing horse movement is because they were being used to escape combat situations, not for true travel (so you have stated as the reason for the blanket speed reduction), you really messed up on this one. A smart step, if the aforementioned is true, would be to penalize horse movement speed in combat situations, just like you do players…it cannot be that hard. Or, if this is not acceptable, have horses dispelled (like when they go thru water), for lack of a better word, whenever fighting is initiated. By changing it the way you have, you have contradicted your reason for having horses around…faster easier travel.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>2) Attunement of almost all items/equipment:</P> <P> </P> <P>I have read two different “official” reasons from SOE for this:</P> <P><SPAN>           </SPAN>a) Too many player made equipment in the market (dev chat I think)</P> <P><SPAN>           </SPAN>b) Too many dropped items in the market (SOE chat done by Casters Realm)</P> <P>Well, which one is it? Both reasons aside, this is a horrible move. Moorgard posted this change on test server at appx 1030pm on February 15…it went live, unannounced, late morning/noonish(1030am where I live) on February 17. I say unannounced because it was not a posted patch on the MB. I had been on the MB looking for any update info one hour before that, and there was nothing posted about anything. Then, I check again before I have to leave for the day, and bam! There it is live as can be. If I wanted to play on a trivial loot game, my primary EQ1 server would have been FV. I know, attunement is not TRUE trivial loot play, but it is close enough. I have several characters, and cannot afford to keep up more than one. You have made it too cost prohibitive, what with needing to start all over every few lvls. As of the 17th, I have not attuned anything, nor do I plan on it. Unless blanket attunement is removed, my playtime, and money, will be with my long term EQ1 acct, and City Of Heroes.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>3) Entertainment spells:</P> <P> </P> <P>Get rid of them. They are worthless, and serve no purpose but to suck 15odd silver out of players’ pockets. If you get rid of them, no one can complain about them.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>4) Paladin/Shadow Knight horse:</P> <P> </P> <P>Get rid of them as an entertainment spell. You stated you reduced the speed from 32%(I think it was) to 10%. All other classes are still going to scream and shout that is still has worth, that all the other entertainment spells are just eye candy. I am not saying get rid of the Paladin/Shadow Knight mounts altogether, just make them gained differently. A Paladin is a Holy Knight; a Shadow Knight is an Unholy Knight. In fantasy, the knight has a magnificent steed, Glorious and Shining for the Holy Warrior, Terrible and Dark for the Unholy Warrior. If I recall correctly from my pencil and paper gaming days, the Paladin, upon reaching a certain lvl, could call to him, a holy mount. My game master required us to undertake a quest to gain our Holy mount. Once gained, this mount stayed with the Paladin for 10 years, at which time it’s service was done, and it would leave (perhaps that was just the way my game master ran things, I cannot remember). If the Paladin desired another Holy Mount, he must repeat the process. This could be an interesting addition, or replacement, to the current system. Make the first mount quest available at lvl 20, when you first become a knight, again at lvl 30, lvl 40, lvl 50. Make each mount noticeably faster, and better looking, than the last, give us a goal to attain. At the current 10% speed boost our entertainment spell grants, all we have is a broken winded, swaybacked, bowlegged, broken down old nag.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>5) Insulting sellback for Attuned items:</P> <P> </P> <P>Most of the posts I have read on this report an average of 4-8% sellback price. This is just insulting. This goes back to subject #2. I read a post on one of the EQ2 message boards on this subject, and remember one part in particular: comparing the pitiful sellback price to tipping a waitress…it is more insulting to tip her a few pennies (attuneables that you can sell to npc venders) then to tip her nothing at all (true trivial loot code). We the players are the waitresses that have been tipped a few pennies by SOE.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>6) Latest change for tradeskill item sellback:</P> <P> </P> <P>Your have played around with this several times. You do not want “New Money” coming into the Economy thru npc merchants. You claim too much “New Money” is being created this way. On a lvl 10 chemistry combine (taking this info from my lvl 15 sage in the making), which used to cost 6copper for a candle, 6 copper for liquid<SPAN> </SPAN>, and the main component, which runs 2-6 copper off broker (for our example, we will use the average of this, 4 copper), for a pristine combine of 4 sellable items, I would make 20 copper (5 copper vender buyback each). We have 16 copper in cost, 20 copper sales, for a grand profit of 4 copper per pristine combine. No one is going to crush the EQ2 economy on that poor profit margin. With 6 bags, with 6 slots each (what I have), doing the max number of combines (180), everything ending up pristine (720 units), multiply that by 5 copper (vender buyback price), makes 14,400 copper from vender. You have 2520 average cost. This leaves you 11880 copper profit (1 gold, 18 silver, 80 copper). Looks like a big pretty big number for just sitting around pressing buttons you say. Well, let us get into more mechanics. Say it takes 1 minute to do each pristine combine…you have now been there for 180 minutes…3 hours. Lets say it takes 2 min per pristine combine…6 hours for 1 gold, 18 silver, 80 copper. Remember, this is average profit…it could be 50% either way depending on what I can get raw for. At this rate, I am well on my way to untold riches…well, that or brain damage from unparalleled boredom! Now, to keep me from this bonanza of copper, you have made it so I get NO profit at all, no matter how small. You need to permit for some small amount of profit. Adventurers go out, kill stuff, and they can profit by loot….that is their reward. Tradeskillers put in the same amount of time, at times with the same, or greater amount of risk at certain workstations (forge, chemistry table, sewing machine are grand damage dealers), with no group support, and we gain nothing. You have not lived until you have hit the proper counter at the forge and STILL take 521 damage…with a health pool of 761.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>7) Insult bone thrown to Tradeskillers (weekend xp bonus)</P> <P> </P> <P>A blatant attempt to divert our attention from the recent changes. “Hmmmm, look at the Tradeskillers scream….I KNOW! Double their xp’s for the weekend, but give no advance notice!!! That should shut them up for a while!” Pass. You will not placate me with that lame bone. I refuse to jump thru that hoop.</P> <P> </P> <P><img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Nonexistent sales/food changes:</P> <P> </P> <P>I have a lvl 25 provisioner. I spend a good deal of time selling my tasty treats. Now, before you start screaming “PRICE GOUGING COOK!!!”,<SPAN>  </SPAN>read on. I do not price gouge. I am routinely one of the lowest pricers in Freeport. What little T1 supplies I still have, usually sells for 1 silver, regardless of what it is. T2 usually goes for 2 silver, T3 for 3 silver. Occasionally I will up the price for a T2 very high duration item to 3 silver, and T3 very high duration to 4 silver. The T3 increase is mostly due to a 50 or 52 copper increase in fuel. The other part is due to the 25% increase in regen (food or drink) output). I do not think that is an unreasonable markup. In 36 hours of selling, I have made 77 silver…all of that was on the first 8 hour day (2/17/05). I have sold nothing since. I asked around in the Freeport crafters chat if I was the only one having a hard time moving anything, and no, I was not. The general feedback I got was the same…poor to non-existent sales. You may say I am getting what I deserve, being a meal ol price gouging cook, and I direct you to the previous text. You want to see price gouging? Take a look at the 12 silver white tea…THAT is price gouging. Raws are going higher every day. Take into account what I have to go thru just to get one product made. We either factor in higher raw prices, or take the time to gather it ourselves. I agree price gouging makes the game less enjoyable. I agree food prices have gone thru the roof; this applies to finished as well as raw items. Before the 2/17/05 patch, I would routinely sell out of my food/drink…but now? Nothing. Being a provisioner is how I supply my other<SPAN>  </SPAN>characters with funds for equipment upgrades. I do not do bad, but I am far from rich. Since starting play in the beginning of December, I have made 18 gold profit. I currently have 5 gold left after supplying my lvl 23 Fury and my lvl 21 Paladin. I cannot afford to spend that 5 gold on my other characters. There is simply not enough money. I now have to choose one character, and hope I can make the money somewhere to replace the degrading gear ever 5 or so lvls.</P> <P> </P> <P>I greatly dislike the npc sold/ summoned food nerf. It was a very bad idea. This punishes those new to the game, and those who have little. In essence, SOE is saying, “Let them eat cake!!”. We know what happened when the peasants were told that. They revolted, and put Marie Antoinette down! I can only guess from the lack of sales, that no one is buying anything, or just plain not playing.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Many folks will agree with me, many will not. A lot of you will say, if you do not like the game, quit, go away, shut up. At the end of my current subscription, if changes are not made for the better, I will, but as the money is currently spent, I will stay, wait and see.</FONT> I gain nothing from leaving at this time. Lastly, for those of you who think you are witty and will ask, “Can I have your stuff?”…do yourself a favor and don’t, it just makes you look stupid.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Washu Lvl 11 Summoner, lvl 25 Provisioner</P> <P>Keeshah Silverfang, lvl 23 Fury, lvl 15 Scholar (dreams of Sage)</P> <P>Bjornen, lvl 21 Paladin, lvl 15 Outfitter (dreams of Armorsmith)</P> <P>At the moment, my other characters do not matter…</P> <P></P> <P></P> <P></P> <P></P> <P> </P></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Warhawk85 on <SPAN class=date_text>02-21-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:13 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Warhawk85 on <SPAN class=date_text>02-21-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:40 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Amen to the OP and mainly the red section.</P> <P> </P> <P>Blindrage 25 guardian - Guk<BR></P>

[Malack]

<DIV>Hmm, the "who dunnit" pool for those who one-starred the OP and his supporters is pretty small <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for me, I agree completely with the the OP. Well thought out, well said.</DIV>

[TorakAig]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Warhawk85 wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P>I have a few things to talk about regarding the changes on 2/17/05.</P> <P> </P> <P>1) Horse speed nerf:</P> <P><SPAN>           </SPAN>Rank 1 horse was 32% is now 24%<SPAN>  </SPAN>;<SPAN>   </SPAN>price was 2.5 pp now is 2.5pp</P> <P><SPAN>           </SPAN>Rank 2 horse was 40% is now 32%<SPAN>  </SPAN>;<SPAN>   </SPAN>price was 3.9?pp now is 5pp</P> <P><SPAN>           </SPAN>Rank 3 horse was 48% is now 40%<SPAN>  </SPAN>;<SPAN>   </SPAN>price was 9.5?pp now is 8pp</P> <P> </P> <P>If your sole reason (so I have read) for slowing horse movement is because they were being used to escape combat situations, not for true travel (so you have stated as the reason for the blanket speed reduction), you really messed up on this one. A smart step, if the aforementioned is true, would be to penalize horse movement speed in combat situations, just like you do players…it cannot be that hard. Or, if this is not acceptable, have horses dispelled (like when they go thru water), for lack of a better word, whenever fighting is initiated. By changing it the way you have, you have contradicted your reason for having horses around…faster easier travel.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>No argument with your points here.  Perhaps I would have worded it differently than pointing out that they messed up on this one and what should have been done if they used the smart step.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>2) Attunement of almost all items/equipment:</P> <P> </P> <P>I have read two different “official” reasons from SOE for this:</P> <P><SPAN>           </SPAN>a) Too many player made equipment in the market (dev chat I think)</P> <P><SPAN>           </SPAN>b) Too many dropped items in the market (SOE chat done by Casters Realm)</P> <P>Well, which one is it? Both reasons aside, this is a horrible move. Moorgard posted this change on test server at appx 1030pm on February 15…it went live, unannounced, late morning/noonish(1030am where I live) on February 17. I say unannounced because it was not a posted patch on the MB. I had been on the MB looking for any update info one hour before that, and there was nothing posted about anything. Then, I check again before I have to leave for the day, and bam! There it is live as can be. If I wanted to play on a trivial loot game, my primary EQ1 server would have been FV. I know, attunement is not TRUE trivial loot play, but it is close enough. I have several characters, and cannot afford to keep up more than one. You have made it too cost prohibitive, what with needing to start all over every few lvls. As of the 17th, I have not attuned anything, nor do I plan on it. Unless blanket attunement is removed, my playtime, and money, will be with my long term EQ1 acct, and City Of Heroes.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>The answer is "both".  There are also many of us who feel that this is not a horrible move.  A rare drop with very nice stats becomes less rare when there have been 50,000 of the same item already for sale on the verious brokers.  It then becomes very easy to obtain a "rare drop", just go buy it.  And since the seller has to compete with a few thousand other people selling the same item, what do you think happens to the value of it?  As for a newer crafter, how is he supposed to survive when he has to compete with every other version of that very same item that everyone else of that class ever made?  No one would ever need to equip alts because everything is already stored in the bank.  This kills the economy by flooding the market with tons of used, but still pristine items, but very little demand for these items because most of the people already have them from characters on their same accounts who already used them and simply outgrew them.  With that said, I'm sorry but the "I wanna use the heck out of my uber loot/crafted stuff then sell it so I can make money for new stuff" excuse for why this is bad wont float with me.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>3) Entertainment spells:</P> <P> </P> <P>Get rid of them. They are worthless, and serve no purpose but to suck 15odd silver out of players’ pockets. If you get rid of them, no one can complain about them.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>If you don't like them, then don't buy them.  Easy as that.  I use mine on all my characters, as do other people I know.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>4) Paladin/Shadow Knight horse:</P> <P> </P> <P>Get rid of them as an entertainment spell. You stated you reduced the speed from 32%(I think it was) to 10%. All other classes are still going to scream and shout that is still has worth, that all the other entertainment spells are just eye candy. I am not saying get rid of the Paladin/Shadow Knight mounts altogether, just make them gained differently. A Paladin is a Holy Knight; a Shadow Knight is an Unholy Knight. In fantasy, the knight has a magnificent steed, Glorious and Shining for the Holy Warrior, Terrible and Dark for the Unholy Warrior. If I recall correctly from my pencil and paper gaming days, the Paladin, upon reaching a certain lvl, could call to him, a holy mount. My game master required us to undertake a quest to gain our Holy mount. Once gained, this mount stayed with the Paladin for 10 years, at which time it’s service was done, and it would leave (perhaps that was just the way my game master ran things, I cannot remember). If the Paladin desired another Holy Mount, he must repeat the process. This could be an interesting addition, or replacement, to the current system. Make the first mount quest available at lvl 20, when you first become a knight, again at lvl 30, lvl 40, lvl 50. Make each mount noticeably faster, and better looking, than the last, give us a goal to attain. At the current 10% speed boost our entertainment spell grants, all we have is a broken winded, swaybacked, bowlegged, broken down old nag.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>As of the time of this post, my main is a lvl 32 paladin.  I have no problem with the speed reduction.  I would also have no problem if it was reduced to 0%.  The holy steed spell is for fun and looks only.  I enjoy having the look of a real knight, horse and all.  So what if it doesn't run as fast as a purchased horse?  If I want a real horse, I will buy one just like everyone else has to.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>5) Insulting sellback for Attuned items:</P> <P> </P> <P>Most of the posts I have read on this report an average of 4-8% sellback price. This is just insulting. This goes back to subject #2. I read a post on one of the EQ2 message boards on this subject, and remember one part in particular: comparing the pitiful sellback price to tipping a waitress…it is more insulting to tip her a few pennies (attuneables that you can sell to npc venders) then to tip her nothing at all (true trivial loot code). We the players are the waitresses that have been tipped a few pennies by SOE.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>If you buy a pair of jeans, wear them for 10 years, by that time they are pretty well worn down.  Will you be able to sell them for anywhere near what you paid for them?  No, at most you can hope to sell it at a yard sale, or donate them for the needy and get a tax break.  In either case you wont get anywhere close to what was paid for them, a mere penies on the dollar.  If you were really wearing armor, using it for the amount of fights that you do to make 10 levels, it'd be pretty well beat up, and close to worthless.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>6) Latest change for tradeskill item sellback:</P> <P> </P> <P>Your have played around with this several times. You do not want “New Money” coming into the Economy thru npc merchants. You claim too much “New Money” is being created this way. On a lvl 10 chemistry combine (taking this info from my lvl 15 sage in the making), which used to cost 6copper for a candle, 6 copper for liquid<SPAN> </SPAN>, and the main component, which runs 2-6 copper off broker (for our example, we will use the average of this, 4 copper), for a pristine combine of 4 sellable items, I would make 20 copper (5 copper vender buyback each). We have 16 copper in cost, 20 copper sales, for a grand profit of 4 copper per pristine combine. No one is going to crush the EQ2 economy on that poor profit margin. With 6 bags, with 6 slots each (what I have), doing the max number of combines (180), everything ending up pristine (720 units), multiply that by 5 copper (vender buyback price), makes 14,400 copper from vender. You have 2520 average cost. This leaves you 11880 copper profit (1 gold, 18 silver, 80 copper). Looks like a big pretty big number for just sitting around pressing buttons you say. Well, let us get into more mechanics. Say it takes 1 minute to do each pristine combine…you have now been there for 180 minutes…3 hours. Lets say it takes 2 min per pristine combine…6 hours for 1 gold, 18 silver, 80 copper. Remember, this is average profit…it could be 50% either way depending on what I can get raw for. At this rate, I am well on my way to untold riches…well, that or brain damage from unparalleled boredom! Now, to keep me from this bonanza of copper, you have made it so I get NO profit at all, no matter how small. You need to permit for some small amount of profit. Adventurers go out, kill stuff, and they can profit by loot….that is their reward. Tradeskillers put in the same amount of time, at times with the same, or greater amount of risk at certain workstations (forge, chemistry table, sewing machine are grand damage dealers), with no group support, and we gain nothing. You have not lived until you have hit the proper counter at the forge and STILL take 521 damage…with a health pool of 761.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Tradeskills are designed so that people may craft what the community needs and wants.  They set prices for these items based on basic economic laws of supply and demand.  If you own a company that produces a product, you can't simply go to a magic vendor and get free money for it.  You have to produce what will sell on your server in your city.  Tradeskiller's awards are the profits they make by successfully producing a demanded product at a reasonable price.  It's up to you to figure out what is needed and what a good price to charge for it is.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>7) Insult bone thrown to Tradeskillers (weekend xp bonus)</P> <P> </P> <P>A blatant attempt to divert our attention from the recent changes. “Hmmmm, look at the Tradeskillers scream….I KNOW! Double their xp’s for the weekend, but give no advance notice!!! That should shut them up for a while!” Pass. You will not placate me with that lame bone. I refuse to jump thru that hoop.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I can't believe you are actually complaining about something that is given for free in order to benefit your character, and get used to the new changes.  I've seen a good rise in crafting this weekend, and the general comments made in the crafting channels in the servers I play on are usually something along the lines of "Hey, these changes aren't so bad".  Sounds like the XP bump worked to me.</FONT></P> <P><img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Nonexistent sales/food changes:</P> <P> </P> <P>I have a lvl 25 provisioner. I spend a good deal of time selling my tasty treats. Now, before you start screaming “PRICE GOUGING COOK!!!”,<SPAN>  </SPAN>read on. I do not price gouge. I am routinely one of the lowest pricers in Freeport. What little T1 supplies I still have, usually sells for 1 silver, regardless of what it is. T2 usually goes for 2 silver, T3 for 3 silver. Occasionally I will up the price for a T2 very high duration item to 3 silver, and T3 very high duration to 4 silver. The T3 increase is mostly due to a 50 or 52 copper increase in fuel. The other part is due to the 25% increase in regen (food or drink) output). I do not think that is an unreasonable markup. In 36 hours of selling, I have made 77 silver…all of that was on the first 8 hour day (2/17/05). I have sold nothing since. I asked around in the Freeport crafters chat if I was the only one having a hard time moving anything, and no, I was not. The general feedback I got was the same…poor to non-existent sales. You may say I am getting what I deserve, being a meal ol price gouging cook, and I direct you to the previous text. You want to see price gouging? Take a look at the 12 silver white tea…THAT is price gouging. Raws are going higher every day. Take into account what I have to go thru just to get one product made. We either factor in higher raw prices, or take the time to gather it ourselves. I agree price gouging makes the game less enjoyable. I agree food prices have gone thru the roof; this applies to finished as well as raw items. Before the 2/17/05 patch, I would routinely sell out of my food/drink…but now? Nothing. Being a provisioner is how I supply my other<SPAN>  </SPAN>characters with funds for equipment upgrades. I do not do bad, but I am far from rich. Since starting play in the beginning of December, I have made 18 gold profit. I currently have 5 gold left after supplying my lvl 23 Fury and my lvl 21 Paladin. I cannot afford to spend that 5 gold on my other characters. There is simply not enough money. I now have to choose one character, and hope I can make the money somewhere to replace the degrading gear ever 5 or so lvls.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I will agree that there are some issues with provisioner, but at your prices, you should have sold out.  If it took you 36 hours to make 77 silver on your products there may be a problem with the products you were trying to sell (I never really bother trying to sell T1 food because most people level 10 and under can't afford it.  But anyone can make T1 food.  Now many people, including me, have suggested that having multiple products come out of a single combine would definately help the compensation for time and money invested issue.</FONT></P> <P>I greatly dislike the npc sold/ summoned food nerf. It was a very bad idea. This punishes those new to the game, and those who have little. In essence, SOE is saying, “Let them eat cake!!”. We know what happened when the peasants were told that. They revolted, and put Marie Antoinette down! I can only guess from the lack of sales, that no one is buying anything, or just plain not playing.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>My stuff started selling more since this changed.  Various changes made allowed me to have the things I needed to make my products.  And it also increased demand for these products.  Adventuring didn't change for me, because everything that dropped still sold at the same prices that they did pre-patch(via vendor for some items and sales of certain drops to other players).  SOE isn't saying "Let them eat cake!!", they are saying, "These are the changes we made to try to improve the market, economy, and game in the long term.  Here's some bonus XP so you can try them out and get an even better benefit."  Where is this big revolt you are talking about?</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>Many folks will agree with me, many will not. A lot of you will say, if you do not like the game, quit, go away, shut up. At the end of my current subscription, if changes are not made for the better, I will, but as the money is currently spent, I will stay, wait and see. I gain nothing from leaving at this time. Lastly, for those of you who think you are witty and will ask, “Can I have your stuff?”…do yourself a favor and don’t, it just makes you look stupid.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>And here is the meat of your message.  All these "problems" you posted above and the final message with "If this isn't changed, I quit".  Instead of staying, doing nothing to experiment with the changes, waiting to see if it gets changed back, why don't you play the game as it is right now and then form an opinion.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Washu Lvl 11 Summoner, lvl 25 Provisioner</P> <P>Keeshah Silverfang, lvl 23 Fury, lvl 15 Scholar (dreams of Sage)</P> <P>Bjornen, lvl 21 Paladin, lvl 15 Outfitter (dreams of Armorsmith)</P> <P>At the moment, my other characters do not matter…</P> <P></P> <P></P> <P></P> <P></P> <P> </P></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Warhawk85 on <SPAN class=date_text>02-21-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:13 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Warhawk85 on <SPAN class=date_text>02-21-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:40 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Bleusong]

i thought 10 years old levi's were pricier than new jeans..

[Warhawk85]

<DIV> <P>Many folks will agree with me, many will not. A lot of you will say, if you do not like the game, quit, go away, shut up. At the end of my current subscription, if changes are not made for the better, I will, but as the money is currently spent, I will stay, wait and see. I gain nothing from leaving at this time. Lastly, for those of you who think you are witty and will ask, “Can I have your stuff?”…do yourself a favor and don’t, it just makes you look stupid.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>And here is the meat of your message.  All these "problems" you posted above and the final message with "If this isn't changed, I quit".  Instead of staying, doing nothing to experiment with the changes, waiting to see if it gets changed back, why don't you play the game as it is right now and then form an opinion.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </P> <P>You did read this , did you not?</P> <P>"At the end of my current subscription, if changes are not made for the better, I will, but as the money is currently spent, I will stay, wait and see. I gain nothing from leaving at this time."</P> <P>I have played on a Trivial Loot server, and I do not like it. Near blanket attunement is not much different.This is not the game I started playing, it is a Radical Change. So, tho I did not say "If this isn't changed, I quit", it is my right to stop playing something I do not enjoy anymore. I gave intellegent, constructive feedback, not a screaming hissy fit.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>I greatly dislike the npc sold/ summoned food nerf. It was a very bad idea. This punishes those new to the game, and those who have little. In essence, SOE is saying, “Let them eat cake!!”. We know what happened when the peasants were told that. They revolted, and put Marie Antoinette down! I can only guess from the lack of sales, that no one is buying anything, or just plain not playing.</P><FONT color=#ffff00> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>My stuff started selling more since this changed.  Various changes made allowed me to have the things I needed to make my products.  And it also increased demand for these products.  Adventuring didn't change for me, because everything that dropped still sold at the same prices that they did pre-patch(via vendor for some items and sales of certain drops to other players).  SOE isn't saying "Let them eat cake!!", they are saying, "These are the changes we made to try to improve the market, economy, and game in the long term.  Here's some bonus XP so you can try them out and get an even better benefit."  Where is this big revolt you are talking about?</FONT></P> <P> </P></FONT> <P>If you read the text, "let them eat cake" follows the npc/summoned food nerf...punishing those new to the game, and those who have little. The big revolt? I am not selling, no one is buying. Proven, documented by folks other than just me.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P></DIV>

[Kylan]

<BLOCKQUOTE>Most of the posts I have read on this report an average of 4-8% sellback price. This is just insulting. This goes back to subject #2. I read a post on one of the EQ2 message boards on this subject, and remember one part in particular: comparing the pitiful sellback price to tipping a waitress…it is more insulting to tip her a few pennies (attuneables that you can sell to npc venders) then to tip her nothing at all (true trivial loot code). We the players are the waitresses that have been tipped a few pennies by SOE.</BLOCKQUOTE>Armor sellback is nothing at all like a tip. It's like buying a car or any other item. You buy it, you use it, it's now worth less than it was brand new. You cannot buy a car, drive it for 10 years, than as long as there's no body damage sell it for full price.Don't think of sell back as an "insult" thing of it as paid for the use of the item. You bought it, you made use of it, there by reducing it's value or transforming cost into benefit, and you sold it to recoup some of your spent money. You shouldn't be able to buy something, use it for however long, then sell it for all your money back. That's just foolish.

[Bleusong]

mm..despite what above fanboi is saying..8silver or less for t4-5 armor sell back is insulting<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> when new it goes 3~18gp depending on server from broker?<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> besides aren't hand mande cars alot more expensive and values go up in time?<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />saying sell back could be adjusted a bit<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Malack]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kylania wrote:<BR><BR>Armor sellback is nothing at all like a tip. It's like buying a car or any other item. You buy it, you use it, it's now worth less than it was brand new. You cannot buy a car, drive it for 10 years, than as long as there's no body damage sell it for full price.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>A car is never pristine again, no matter how the body looks. It depreciates because parts get worn and become less reliable. Equipment is nothing like that - you could be the first or tenth owner of a piece of equipment and get the same benefit.<BR>

[Rijacki]

<blockquote><hr>Malackii wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Kylania wrote:<BR><BR>Armor sellback is nothing at all like a tip. It's like buying a car or any other item. You buy it, you use it, it's now worth less than it was brand new. You cannot buy a car, drive it for 10 years, than as long as there's no body damage sell it for full price.<BR><BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>A car is never pristine again, no matter how the body looks. It depreciates because parts get worn and become less reliable. Equipment is nothing like that - you could be the first or tenth owner of a piece of equipment and get the same benefit.<BR><hr></blockquote>Okay, then how about used CDs or DvDs. Do you really think that when you take them into a store that buys used CDs and DvDs, even if the package is pristine, that you will get full value for them? No. The only time you would get purchased value or more would be for a collector's item many years down the road and we're not discussing collector's item level of stuff.I haven't tried to sell any attuned (used) items, but I would hope the value returned is the same (or nearly so) as it would be for the crafter who made the item or about that for a similar looted item. If it is, then you see what a really really crappy return crafters get from the NPCs no matter the quality of work. Should a non-crafter who has used an item get back more than the crafter would have if he sold the item unused? Heck no!

[TorakAig]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Malackii wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kylania wrote:<BR><BR>Armor sellback is nothing at all like a tip. It's like buying a car or any other item. You buy it, you use it, it's now worth less than it was brand new. You cannot buy a car, drive it for 10 years, than as long as there's no body damage sell it for full price.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>A car is never pristine again, no matter how the body looks. It depreciates because parts get worn and become less reliable. Equipment is nothing like that - you could be the first or tenth owner of a piece of equipment and get the same benefit.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> And how many times do you think a real breastplate could be hit without wearing down to the point of having to be melted down and rebuilt?  And besides that, real armor wasn't just generally produced to fit just anyone, it was made to fit specifically 1 person and very often unwearable by anyone else.

[Bleusong]

why doesn't people get it?...no one...op and others..aren't asking for full value back..even though just cost would be nice..

[Corvax6]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bleusong wrote:<BR>why doesn't people get it?...no one...op and others..aren't asking for full value back..<BR><BR>even though just cost would be nice..<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> </DIV>Why would u get cost back... U used it for a couple of levels, thats where your money went.  Just consider it as an investment instead of a lost.  U bought a new piece of armor, used it to go adventure, level , made money off the loot (this is your return of investment) with it.  Know it's used up and doesn't fulfill your needs anymore.  U sell it for say 1/5 of the price...not that bad for something u used for about 5 levels.  It just makes u think twice before u attune a item.

[Bleusong]

cost of crafter<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> not buyer<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Malack]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TorakAigia wrote:<BR><BR>And how many times do you think a real breastplate could be hit without wearing down to the point of having to be melted down and rebuilt?  And besides that, real armor wasn't just generally produced to fit just anyone, it was made to fit specifically 1 person and very often unwearable by anyone else.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Just like we aren't dealing with real cars, and therefore real depreciation, a piece of armor in the game gives the same protection whether it's the first or tenth owner. </P> <P>For the obtuse among us, what that means is that stating that an item is worth less because it's been "used" and, therefore, is somehow not as good as new, is nonesense. Wanna justify lower sell-back, by all means do, but try using a valid argument.</P>

[Bar]

<DIV>Ok Malackii I'll try to take you up on that.  I just bought a full suit of fulginate chain armor.  My cost on it was 50g (6g/piece +tip).  These pieces sell back to the merchant for 1g3s (I have no clue where people are getting 8s buyback for armor/weapons I havent had buybacks that low since about t2).  Out of the balance I'd guess2-3g was profit to the crafter depending on what her cost was (obviously the npc's should not pay back profit paid to the merchant).  The remainder is about what...2g?  That's my cost of use for the armor for however long I decide to use it.  I don't see how losing 2g/piece is all that earth shattering.  Another example ... Rubicite Gussets are selling on my server for 10-16g...NPC buyback is 4.56g and this is end game armor.  At level 50 if you're worrying about 6-11g you have other problems to worry about.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Frankly, at least in T5 I feel their buyback prices are very fair.  One shouldnt expect to be reimbursed because you chose to pay someone a profit on their merchandise be it playermade, dropped, or quested.  If you overpaid or didnt negotiate or barter with the seller that's your choice not SoE's fault and they should not be berated for your decision.</DIV>

[Malack]

<DIV>And THAT is a valid argument.</DIV>

[Blindrage]

<DIV>I love when people compare how real life is to a game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cracks me up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Blindrage 25 Guardian</DIV>