Bight the bullet and make the changes necessary to make this game TRULY solo friendly!

[GraymaneGravitic]

<DIV> <DIV> <DIV>I spend all night running all around antonica looking for the few solo mobs interspersed between the plethora of group only mobs, only to find duo groups taking them all out so the soloers are left with nothing. If SOE is so intent on mainyaining this idiotic disticnction between group and solo mobs, they need to make it impossible for groups to attack solo mobs! But, ya know, the duoers are in a fix as well. Thier group isn't large enough to take on the groups of 4-8 mobs that will ALWAYS come in a group of 4-8, so they are left with robbing the soloers of the only solo mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>DAoC, a game with an absolutely horrid pve system actually did a far better job of setting up mob camps for BOTH soloers and groupers. IN DAoC there is no such thing as a predetermined groups of mobs. When you approach a mob camp as a soloer and pull a mob you get one to two mobs in response to your pull. When a group of 3 pulls from the same camp they get 4-6 mobs in response to the pull. When a group of 8 pulls a mob from the camp they get 10-14 mobs in response. The camps respond dynamically to the size of the group pulling. The very idea of setting up predetermined mob groups sizes absolutely precludes faciliting differing player group sizes. The entire group/solo designation of mob camps is where SOE went so very wrong.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nothing turns a soloer off more than encountering one mob camp after another with a huge billborad above stating "soloers not welcome here".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After three years in DAoC I finally became fed up enough with Mythic's refusal to ever make the paladin a viable class in pvp that I left in disgust. I decided to try this game before trying WoW. Most of my friends form DAoC went to WoW, but the cartoonish graphics turned me off. I immediatiely fell in love with the graphics in this game. I immediately fell in love with the depth of game mechanics, the detail fo player statistics and the diversity of races and classes. I absolutely fell in love with the interactive crafting, especially after enduring the absymal crafting in DAoC. However, after playing a few levels and discovering how many things couldn't be done unless I tied myself to the apron strings of others, my new found enamorment began to wain. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I finally decided to bite the bullet and give WoW a try. At first the graphics turned my stomach. The crafting system, while not as interactive as EQ2, is still worlds above what I endured for 3 years in DAoC. The combat is far simpler and far less interactive than either EQ2 or DAoC, but I am actually enjoying playing it. There is no task that can't eventually be soloed simply by waiting until your character is a couple levels above what would be needed to do it in a group. There are NO BILLBOARDS anywhere stating soloers not welcome here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know many of you sarcastic types will simply reply :"have fun playing wow" in a snide tone of voice if such was possible here. My point is that I really DON'T WANT to be forced to play the simpler, uglier game. I simply have this love/hate relationship with EQ2 that is driving me away to play WoW instead. Frankly, my story should be a wake up call to the devs at SOE. I am sure there are plenty of others out there like me, who want a deeply complex, challenging game that facilitates soloing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sometimes I have to think that MMORG design is either a big part of a liberal conspiracy to perpetuate the welfare state or a symptom of the welfare state. Look at the facts. Instead of encouraging and rewarding self reliance and personal achievment, they promote group dependency. I can't remember how many times fellow guildmate in DAoC lamented the inability to level their toon because they couldn't find a group. Those poor, unsuspecting fools got a good dressing down from thier GM (me) about thier lack of personal initiative and dependency on others (I soloed my paladin to 50). They were told flat out to stop whining and go level thier own [Removed for Content]!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Games shouldn't FORCE people to group. They should provide benefits and incentives to group, but NOT require it. Far too much of EQ2 REQUIRES grouping!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>DEVS........Please, Please, Please rework this mess you have created and make this game FUN for soloers. I REALLY, REALLY DON'T want to be forced to turn to your competitor for a gaming experinece I can enjoy!!!!!!!</DIV></DIV></DIV>

[Bleusong]

there's plenty of solo lvl 25+<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> nownow~go group<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> plenty of solo games out there..why force a 'community' to change because you want to solo?<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[GraymaneGravitic]

<DIV>maybe for the same reason you want to force some one who prefers self reliance to become a part of your little dependent community!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the point you so obviously missed is that there is NO reason whatsoever that the game can't be structured to accommodate BOTH play styles!!!!</DIV> <P>Message Edited by GraymaneGraviticus on <SPAN class=date_text>02-18-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:24 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by GraymaneGraviticus on <span class=date_text>02-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:25 AM</span>

[Bleusong]

<blockquote><hr>GraymaneGraviticus wrote:<DIV>maybe for the same reason you want to force some one who prefers self reliance to become a part of your little dependent community!</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>the point you so obviously missed is that there is NO reason whatsoever that the game can't be structured to accommodate BOTH play styles!!!!</DIV><P>Message Edited by GraymaneGraviticus on <SPAN class=date_text>02-18-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:24 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by GraymaneGraviticus on <span class=date_text>02-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:25 AM</span><hr></blockquote>havn't heard? there's no dependency now<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> been removed<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> again, there's plenty of solo content imo, and there are much more important content/bugs to be fixed first<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[SavinDwa]

<DIV>I don't know what level or class you are ... but ... there is always tons of stuff for a solo player to do.  Especially now with the extra levels of green.   In my opinion they have at least doubled the speed at which a solo player can get experience.  In fact, as a level 20 guardian I could really level faster by myself than in a group.... it boring and so I don't really want to do that.  But my friends had gooten a bit ahead of me and I wanted to catch up.  I went from 20.5 to 22.0 in a little under 2 hours soloing groups of 3-5 greens.  It wasn't my plan, I was just trying to get a quest done, but I was amazed at how fast I leveled.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Basically, look for the lowest level green groups.  Find a place where there are 4-5 spawns near each other and just keep repeatedly taking them out.  There are lots of places like this in Antonica.</DIV>

[Bleusong]

<blockquote><hr>SavinDwarf wrote:<DIV>I don't know what level or class you are ... but ... there is always tons of stuff for a solo player to do. Especially now with the extra levels of green. In my opinion they have at least doubled the speed at which a solo player can get experience. In fact, as a level 20 guardian I could really level faster by myself than in a group.... it boring and so I don't really want to do that. But my friends had gooten a bit ahead of me and I wanted to catch up. I went from 20.5 to 22.0 in a little under 2 hours soloing groups of 3-5 greens. It wasn't my plan, I was just trying to get a quest done, but I was amazed at how fast I leveled.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Basically, look for the lowest level green groups. Find a place where there are 4-5 spawns near each other and just keep repeatedly taking them out. There are lots of places like this in Antonica.</DIV><hr></blockquote>and more<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> folks are just never happy><

[GraymaneGravitic]

<DIV>You guys just don't get it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am not one of those people who has to level to the top in two weeks or I become frustrated and quit. I spent SIX MONTHS leveling to 50 in DAoC where it is possibly to reach 50 in a week with powerleveling.  I really couldn't care how much xp I get from a mob or how many I have to kill to see advancement on the progress bar.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I want is to be able to complete quests. I currently have at least 20 of them that con green to me and are impossible for me to complete UNLESS I relent and ask others to become a cruch for me. One of my quests requires me to kill a gnoll runecaster. So far, I have yet to find a runecaster who is not a memeber of a group of 4-8. Another requires me to kill a certain number of gnolls in the forest. Every last gnoll in the forest is a group mob!!!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I want is to be able to explore. I came upon an entrance to Firemyst Gully and it has a big billboard ovver the entrance that states: "soloers not welcome here". I went to the lighthouse in Antonica and the cellar has a big billborad that states: "soloers not welcome here".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Are you beginning to get the picture yet? As a soloer, I pay the same subscription rate as you groupers do yet I am denied access to game content that is open to you! Shouldn't they be charging me less or maybe charging you more!</DIV>

[Bleusong]

simple solution, group and meet friends<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />come on<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> stop being so anti-social<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> we good people here<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[GraymaneGravitic]

<DIV>Why do people prepossesd of the "grouper" mentality automatically assume that people who prefer to solo "must" be antisocial?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>During 4 years in Ultima Online I led one of the guilds most involved in creating role played scenarios for wars between the guilds who roleplayed the good guys and the guilds who roleplayed tha bad guys. I was elected to the position of Field Marsal of the Loyaist Alliance Army. A force consisting of the all of the guild of the light. I designed a day long raid by the forces of darkness against a caravan of supplies led by the forces of the light. Over 400 people participated in the even I created.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>During the course of 3 years in Dark Age of Camelot I was a co-GM of one of the lergest guils in the game. The Forgotten Heroes of Lancelot. I roleplayed the irascible loner who scoffed at the very idea of needing help to accomplish anything.  I strived to set an example for the noobies who thought they couldn't accomplish anything without a group. I particiapted in Relic Raids with forces number in the hundreds. Although I prefer to solo, that doesn't mean I am incapable of or completely opposed to grouping. In fact, even though most of my experience in DAoC as a paladin was solo, I was well sought after by groups because I was capable of playing my paladin effectively in his group support role, while many wo grouped all the time never actually caught on to the methods of playing a paladin well in a group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The main reaosn I avoid grouping are multifold. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First : and foremost is the loss of the sense of personal accomplishment for completing a task unaided. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Second: dealing with people is often more of a pain in the [FAAR-NERFED!] than it's worth. Idiots getting the group killed for stupid reasons. Sitting around twiddling my thumbs while some goes afk for a smoke or to deal with a child.  Sacrificing the freedom to go where I want, when I want. Losing the freedom to act impulsively.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Third: The guilt factor. Feeling guilty about making other sit around twiddling thier thumbs while I go afk. Or the guilt that comes with having to leave the group at the height of the adventuring.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fourth: I have the patience of a three year old and start wriggling and squirming and whining whenever I am made to wait for more than five minutes for something to happen. I can't remember how many times I responded to an invitation to group in DAoC only to give my groupmates a warning that if the group wasn't on the move to the adventure spot in five minutes I would be on my way top find something more engaging and entertaining to do than stand around with my thumb up my rear end waiting endlessly for the perfect group to be assembled.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just because I prefer to solo doesn't mean I am completely antisocial. It just means that I know myself and what to expect from most others well enough to know the best path to avoid agravation on all our parts!</DIV>

[Synd]

<DIV>This is a Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game -- MMORPG.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Key words - Massive Multiplayer</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I doesn't say Massive Singleplayer. You will have to group with other people to complete some of your quests becuase <deep breath>, this is a Massive Multiplayer game. However, you can do tons of stuff alone, you will just have to explore some more.</DIV>

[GraymaneGravitic]

<DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by GraymaneGraviticus on <span class=date_text>02-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:48 AM</span>

[GraymaneGravitic]

<DIV>You just have to love the cluelessness of those who delude themsleves into beleiveing that just because amny other people are accessing the same interface as you that you shoulld be forced to join up with them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have a little clue for you: LIFE is a Massively Multi-player game as well, but it is STILL perfectly soloable!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Get a clue. But one if you have to!</DIV>

[Bleusong]

there are solo content there are group/raid content..<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> it's in place and works fine..why fix it??

[GraymaneGravitic]

<DIV>The simple fact that soloers are dissatisfied with it in it's present form should be a pretty clear indication that it is NOT working fine!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That it appears to be working fine from the perspective of a grouper does NOT mean it IS  woking fine!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It only means that groupers who have little sympathy for the plight of soloers have succeeded in convincing themsleves everything is fine.</DIV>

[Sulas]

Graymane,I'm with you on this. There's no reason SoE shouldn't allow dynamic pulls, unless its a programming issue.As for the simpletons who don't get your point... they need to group. Don't hold it against them.I hope you stick with EQ2. I can't stand the grfx or simple play in WoW either.cheersedit: typo<p>Message Edited by Sulas on <span class=date_text>02-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:33 PM</span>

[Omnikain]

<DIV>I solo frequently.  I have solo'd effectively in Antonica, Commonlands, Nektulos Forest, Wailing Caves, Thundering Steppes, Enchanted Lands, Rivervale, and the solo instance that I did last night.  The only time I found the xp unacceptable was in the solo instance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>------------</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"As for the simpletons who don't get your point... they need to group. Don't hold it against them."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>------------</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for this comment, I'll venture that grouping can be potentially more dangerous than soloing.  Grouping puts variables into the mix that I don't have to deal with if I solo.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So saying someone "needs" to group, really doesn't further your argument.</DIV>

[Sorenias]

<DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I completely understand what you are saying.  I also have issues with being dependant on others.  When I first began EQ1 it was the grouping that got me hooked.  It wasn't long though before the issues you describe became a problem.  Soon I was off solo'ing and I had rid myself of the need for others.  I took pride in my ability to deal with a given situation on my own.  No one was there to see it but me and that was fine.  I solo'ed from level 26 to 65 and 412 alternate advancement points.  I occupied myself during the extensive downtime by chatting with fellow wizards through /tells, or talking to the guild, or doing household chores.  This is how I played and it's what I loved.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One day I logged in and discovered that I was bored to death with solo'ing.  So I could kill 16 mobs in a swarm kite, 10,000 other people could too.  Solo'ing has it's merits and I agree that no one should be forced to group, but grouping should be encouraged.  What I think you want to see is too extreme.  I think you would prefer that the ^^ and ^ mobs be tuned down, and the game take on the flavor and feel that WoW has with regard to solo'ability.  I do not want that and I think it's the only thing that will truly satisfy you soloists.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So let me be blunt.  If you want a single player experience, then go play one of those.  Designing a game to enable rampant solo'ability is going to lead to the exact same pitfalls faced in EQ1 for certain classes and everyone in WoW.  The sense of community is the secret sauce.  If you do not wish to be a part of that, then don't play MMOG's.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What's the most equitable solution?  There isn't one really.  You either go too far with solo'ing or you go too far with grouping.  EQ2 does the best job of balancing the two play styles and that's not saying a lot, admittedly, but its the best we have.  Creating the kind of solo friendly atmosphere that you really want would require a sweeping and catastrophic change to the games basic play mechanic.  It isn't going to happen.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So then, you need to decide which is best for you - EQ2 or WoW.  That, as they say, is that.</DIV>

[Miral]

<DIV>The ONLY problem with solong I see right now is that any quest worth doing requires a group or being so high in level the reward will be useless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And of course solo balance... my druid can solo blue groups or orange solo mobs, but my rogue can barely solo some grey groups... Berzerker is kind of in the middle, able to solo green groups or yellow solos.</DIV>

[Sulas]

Sorenias,I can't speak for Greymane, but the core idea I took from his post was the idea of NPC group scaling. For example, if a group of 6 attacked a group of NPCs, then a number of NPCs (i.e 4-<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> would attack the group. But if a group of 2 tried the same thing, a smaller number of NPCs would respond. Same goes for a single player.I would love the ability to sneak near a group of NPCs and pull out one for the times I have 45 minutes to solo, and come back the next night with a full group and hit the same NPCs.That's Graymanes idea, and I like it. All he seems to be saying, is if Sony is committed to making solo play a reality, maybe they should take a look at going all the way. Instead of segregating content, they could allow content to scale.

[GraymaneGravitic]

<DIV>Bingo! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sulas wins the prize!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some one finally understands what I am asking for!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Segregated content failed to be sociallly acceptable a long, long time ago! Integration is the only way to promote AND facilitate diversity.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Diversity in this context meaning ANY size group can be accommodated by any mob camp!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It wasn't too difficult for Mythic to program dynamic responses to group size into thier mob coding. A company with the resources of Sony should scoff at the ease of something a small fry like Mythic was able to achieve.  We shouldn't take the "it's too difficult to code and represents too great a rework of our game mechanics as an excuse. If, and this is the BIG IF, they are truly committed to making the game solo friendly as they have so vociferously proclaimed, then they really have little choice but to do this.</DIV>

[Jinsou]

As someone who collects books for his apartment, I find it frustrating that in order to solo the quest required to complete them I have be insanely higher level than the target mobs in order to solo them. I COULD in theory get a group or get help to do them, but realistically they rarely task you with killing a mob that is frequently hunted for EXP. Furthermore, since the quests are so tedius, most people find them not worth the effort, so I always end up soloing. It's always after I'm 10 levels too high for the zone that I'm trying to finish a book in, so that all the ^^ mobs are greyed out (read: killable). It's bad enough that hardly anyone else shares my passion for collecting in-game books for my meaningless shelves, but to not even be able to persue my interest 80% of the time solo is a real pain.I don't fully agree with the tone of the original poster, but I do think that from the onset quests needed to be much better balanced between soloers and full groups.

[LadyEternity]

<DIV>My husband and I played EQ 2's beta. We also purchased the game in the hopes that things would improve for our style of play (duoing). We cancelled long before our free trial was up and went and played WoW. Now, I like WoW for the most part, but at level 57 I was bored and the outlook bleak..as the content was mainly focused on raids and grouping in epic instanced dungeons. We returned to DAoC, and played for a spell. Then we read about all the changes SOE was making to EQ2, that would make our duo experience more fun. So here we are...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Right now we are level 17, Shaman and Brawler. Soon to be Monk/Mystic. Our duo experience has been -ok- so far. But as we level if it gets bad again...like it was before...at launch, I will cancel and wait. But I am optimistic that SOE will continue to address solo/duo and small group content, and provide ways for these players to succeed and see the story and content that makes EQ2 more then WoW ever will be. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV>If not then...</DIV> <DIV>Well..</DIV> <DIV>Time will tell..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Asharia</DIV>