A Beautiful Patch That Brings Both Concerns and Relief: A Thread for constructive thinkers

[Darken_St]

<DIV>Usually I am not one of the poeple to lay out a huge and segmented post, but in the case of such huge changes to an existing game market and economy I feel compelled to speak my peace, and voice my mind.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First off I would like to applaud the dev team for the bold move of pushing the attunement changes forward, such a huge change brings with it the threat of waves and tumultous times. That took caring and commitment to your game to do. Attunement in my eyes is best for both adventurers and crafters in the long run and I shall explain why.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff33>1)</FONT> With the removal of interdependance subcomponent makers will have to adapt or die off as a breed. Why? Because I can now make my own subs for cheaper that I could purchase them prior. Thus the greedy inflation of subs will no longer dictate the cost of my end products. Today I lowered my Tier 5 wares by an astounding 2g per, so that now I sell crudes for 2g (about 15s profit actually) and up to 5g for pristine (a nice profit indeed) in 1g increments. Very affordable to any adventurer. <FONT color=#ffff33>(The crafters benefit)</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff66>2)</FONT> Loot is also now attuneable which will lower the trivialization of its value overall. No longer will that be "oh just another feysteel dagger, theres like 40 on the broker. I might be able to geta gold out of it"    It'll be "Ooo a feysteel dagger that should go for about 5g, not too bad havent seen too many on of late" Why? Because items are now leaving the game. Loot will become sellable again and the adventurer will reach a near if not larger per item profit, where the crafter will make slightly less per item but has a larger supply of any given item. In the aforementioned Dagger's case it is a Tier 4 uncommon drop (ie non merchant trash) and if it sold for 5g itd be selling for 250% of what my pristine Tier 4 Briarwood goes for, 2g per pristine.  <FONT color=#ccff33>(The adventurers benefit)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff33></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff33></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>Now to move away from the atunement issue and address other concerns and applaudings brought forward in this patch,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>The question of sellback prices to the merchant is a touchy one and one integral to such radiacal changes to the existing market structure. If Artisans can get too much from merchant they gain access to a method of farming coin. If subs sell for to much botters get another way to cheat to the top. If the artisan community gets too little they are incensed at the thought they should lose coin to lvl. Any changes are going to be both viewed with skeptisism and doubt.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>The current sellback values are incorrect. If I harvest all the materials I need fore a T5 shield and it requires 2 subs the total cost is around 1.6g if it requires 3 subs 1.9ish. That is assuming I put in the time to do everything myself. Harvest, make chems, makes subs, make item. These same items merchant for between 52s and 74s varying. This nets a loss and as such I urge Sony to carefully evaluate all the items recipes individually and do the math based on total fuels used throughout entire creation process.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>Game Breaking? No, but that is cause I always expect Sony to tighten the cash and then work it up to a acceptable lvl, once the waves calm down and our expectations drop, when they bring it aright they can do it to a degree on their math not on the math based on what we got used to.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>Again I applaud Sony for trying to create a stable viable economy instead of just another broken mmo economy, not easy business, that.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc>And on we move to other concerns and issues ^_^ Lovely list she is and many an applaud included.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc><FONT color=#ccff00>Buffs!</FONT> Oh my goodness development team let me thank you from the bottom of my aching wrists. As any enchanter tank scout, well anyone, knows, buffs were too short, the new timers are incredible.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>Thank you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Dmg Mitigation</FONT>, wow another topic of much debate. And one that raises a concern for me that I am guessing is a byproduct of the fight to balance scouts/fighters in melee.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mitigation is increased on Heavy and Light. It is the increase to light that concerns me. The urge to balance monks and bruisers is applauded, needed, overdue, deserved. But, what of the ramifications to the healer classes. Let me explain. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Templars get heavy armor and reactive heals, reactive heals of the 3 durationed ones have the least bang in numerics but have great mana efficiency and are applied after the recipients mitigation mitigates the dmg and the Templar gets to wear mighty heavy armor.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Shamans get medium armor and wards, medium armor in the effort to balance rogues was left as is. No changes there, and herein lies the issue. Wards have the highest numerics, BUT, are applied to the dmg BEFORE mitigation of the recipient. In other words my tanks ward may absorb 500 pts of dmg, without the ward same fighter may have only taken 120 dmg off the same attack due to dmg mit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Druids get light armor and regens which are the middling in numerics but are also applied after the recipients mitigation. Meaning with the beef to light armor, and the fact regens get Mit, Druid now has a leg up on Shaman, not too mention single target regens stack.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>By nemerics I mean that around the same lvl a ward will have about 700pts a regen 350ishpts and a reactive 200 or so.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Was this the main concern when the balance issues were thought out, I doubt it, it just happened to come to mind.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Mage Wizard and Warlock Dmg incrase and Fighter Dmg Decrease </FONT><FONT color=#ffffcc>This topic is thouroughly discusse din other places, my concern is after the changes to taunts come weeks back, and lowered dps, a tank may have issues with a wiz or war in group. And aggro drawn by over dps'ing is hard to peel. As I do not group with a Wizard or a Warlock I cannot in good conciounce speak too much on this issue, need only say it does concern me.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>I have many many many more opinions on the changes made to the game today. But let me say only that I overall give the patch 2 thumbs up and a high five. Devs you have taken a step in th right direction for the Long Term Lifespan of your game. Do not back down, do not falter. These changes will bring the inevitable whiner out of hiding. But in the end once they filter out, more people will stay due to the long term effects and ramifications this will have.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff99ff>Kudos to you DEVS,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff99ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff99ff>Alexis  <3</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Darken_St]

<DIV>As you can see the one star ninjas, have visited, sad that an opposing viewpoint instead of stimultaing intellectual discussion is instead one starred and ignored for the avid flame wars ensuent on these boards.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let me give you a little light on this my friends.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The developers did what they did knowing full well a crapstorm of moans groans flames quitting threats complaints and attacks on them would ensue. They are not answering on these boards nor will til they post a formal statement about the good of the game. So, one star away. Continue your inane bantering, and know, that alot of people both adventurer and crafter have the foresight to see that this will in the end make the game a more enjoyable and viable economic atmosphere, and that we learned long ago to turn a deaf ear to your intellectual peaks of "t15 i5 t3h 5ux04"  or something such. If you will pardon me my leet isnot fluent as I lack the intellectual shallowness encumbant to successfully grasp your dialect, I did however attempt my best translation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sincerely,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Alexis</DIV> <DIV>fan of this patch, but in no way a fangirl</DIV>

[Elda]

<DIV>please view the priest forums for more accurate information regarding wards 'numerics'. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>wards generally have total mitigation amounts which are <FONT color=#ffcc00>equal to or lower </FONT>than HoT and reactives, not above, even when measured in terms of pure HP, and not taking AC into consideration. this is the center of much controversy on the shaman section of the forums, and the reason why many shamans feel that wards are not working as intended.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Eldarn on <span class=date_text>02-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:11 PM</span>

[Daeanor]

Tradeskill interdependance is far from gone. Personally, I couldn't be bothered to make all my own inks, papers, and quills, and I will buy them when I can. What this change does is give me an option if none are available and I would otherwise be stuck - <i>or</i> if the only ones available are being price gouged. I saw pristine sepia ink on the broker three weeks ago at 20 sp each - and <i>any</i> crafter can make sepia ink, it's a tier one recipe! It costs, at most, a silver to make. Now I have a choice - if the only subcombines out there are priced stupidly, I just make my own..albeit at twice the hassle and cost the proper class could make it. It's a reasonable compromise in my view. Price your stuff right; absolutely make a profit, but don't feel every sale must be a killing. I'll buy it, and so will many others.I don't think the attune change is anywhere near as sweeping as people seem to think it is. First of all, 90% of what is on the brokers is not gear people outgrew, it's gear they looted and never used. All that will still be out there. Same goes for twinking - I'm always passing things my wizard loots down to my 10-levels-behind ranger for when he grows into them. I've never worn the stuff on the wizard, so attuning doesn't affect that at all. All the really most desireable stuff was already attuneable, no change there. This does, however, take things out of the economy and will promote sales in the future; in the long term, it will help. Besides all that, back when I <i>could</i> sell my used gear, nine times out of ten I found no one wanted it anyway and the merchant got it. Much ado about nothing, IMO.

[Thunndar6]

<DIV> The last 2 patches hosed alot of people, feel lucky yer not one of them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> All those changes to agility and such, gimped my dirge so bad I am thinking of deleting him, his debuffs are now worthless due to the change and his DPS is incredably low now, where 3 patches ago I was doing fine.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> They also increased fuels , even on my provisioner ( which they announced that they lowered fuel costs for them, not increased ) so now  I charge more. This also hurt the new player starting out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Attunement changes, now I can't sell my handmedowns to other players, that takes away money from my pocket, not happy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I canceled today, won't [FAAR-NERFED!] cry moan or anything, it's SoE's game, they can do what they want at this point, but I will not pay to login every week , gain lvls , yet somehow get weaker and weaker as I grow in lvl.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> This game needed 3 months more of beta testing, and releasing the game before WoW could didn't help considering the state of the game was/is in when they did so.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> And we wonder why WoW has x3 the population?</DIV>

[reef]

<DIV>to the OP:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>while im not gonna comment on all your points i want to on the attunable/economy one.  I only played EQ2 for the first month, but in that first month I saw some TERRIBLE price gouging. As a nec, my level 20 pet adept 1 was going for 5G, with 5 copies available ALL from the same person(along with numerous other class defiuning spells). I was fortunate enough to get a copy off a guildmate, but im sure not everyone was as lucky as myself and had to cough up the 5G if they really wanted it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With these new changes the whorde and gouge technique will be MUCH easier to accomplish.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While I do see some of the logic behind this decision, I believe it will open a pandora's box of problems such as I desribed above.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"oh just another feysteel dagger, theres like 40 on the broker. I might be able to geta gold out of it"    It'll be "Ooo a feysteel dagger that should go for about 5g, not too bad havent seen too many on of late" Why? Because items are now leaving the game. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I see it as:</DIV> <DIV>greedy jerk"ohhh feysteel dagger for 5G, I could buy it any any others and resell the for 10G since there is so few of them around"</DIV> <DIV>then you craft one, sell it for 5G, and he just buys it and puts it right back up for sale with the 1 or 2 others.</DIV>

[Encantador]

<DIV>Well said Darken.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>I don't think this patch has been the answer to all the economic problems, but it is a good start.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <DIV>Reefus you forgot to continue the scenario....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Wow says the tradeskiller that dagger sold fast, I will make another...."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The new dagger goes on sale at 5g perhaps 6g, again the hoarder must either buy this or be left with unsellable stock. At some point the guy hoarding will run out of money or will have to undercut the tradeskiller to get some income. So prices will come down. Only if the supply of Feyiron is small will the hoarder have sufficient time with the market to himself to get some sales.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In any large market there will be attempts to corner a part of it. Where the flow of items into the market is not restricted such attempts can only be short term.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do share your concern if there are items in the game that are a 'must have' and the supply of them is limited. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Bewk]

<DIV>I 100% agree with the OP.  Very excellent post.  I am glad more people see this patch as a god send rather then a game killer.  For those that argue that the prices are not coming down I do not see the same broker as you then. For instance I am a provisioner just started teir 5 to be exact and I have cut my prices much lower since the scalpers no longer have unlimited funds to buy my stuff and resell.  I sell Gnoll bites for 70 silver.  That is still high but I don't want to sell all of my stuff in 20 minutes I need the time to restock and what not.  The going price of the gnoll bites before patch where 1.5 gold.  That is insane.  I can make a stack from pure raws to refreshing in hour and a half. I don't think my time is worth 30 gold at lvl 41.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Before the patch tradeskillers set the market price for what stuff was worth.  Not really by what they charged but by how much they bought stuff for.  Since they had all the money they could pay a lot so they bought it for a lot.  They left the adventurer no say in the market since their business wasn't needed.  Now though they are needed since tradeskillers aren't making the same kind of cash we now have to sell to adventurers who don't have an endless pocket book and the prices are dropping in chunks.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just yesterday I made Fayberry Margaritas a 3 hour teir 3 drink.  I charge 35 silver each for them because they use a lot of resources and  they are a PITA to make as refreshing.  I had my trader on for a whole night and never sold any.  That was unsual so I looked on the broker and a young lady was selling them for 20 silver. I smiled and thought well good I don't have to make those suckers anymore and if she makes them and is happ to sell them for 20 silver I won't fight her. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is not a bad thing. Adventurers are going to set the markets now and since they are the biggest market they should.  Now we just hve to wait to see where the 2 meet. For the young lady I mentioned earlier they it is  </DIV>

[Drtydog]

<DIV> <DIV>First off</DIV> <DIV>- I understand the need to keep inflation down...EQ1 was crazy and SOE is trying to not recreate the plat problem</DIV> <DIV>- I understand the need to keep tradeskillers happy by having them sell stuff and make money</DIV> <DIV>- I undertand the basics behind attunable items and generally have no problem with this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Background on me</DIV> <DIV>I have three char</DIV> <DIV>31 assassin 24 woodworker </DIV> <DIV>23 Defiler 25 alchemist</DIV> <DIV>22 Guardian </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regarding armor - </DIV> <DIV>the prices increased because of this patch.  You cannot take supply away and  have prices go down.  I have no problem with this except that it takes 45-55 gold, depending on the day, to upgrade to level 30 armor and accessories X the number of char i play.   between three players i have about 90 G.  I play about 35 hours a week.  Sure, i will be able to afford going into the 30s but the casual player cannot.  I won't get into the "you can sell your drops to teh merchant" trust me you can't make a lot of money, especially if you play in groups.   ie lotto.  Bottom line is the adventurer will not make enough money relative to what you TS is willing to sell to recoup costs and make a little money..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tradeskilling - </DIV> <DIV>so i became an alch to sell to every other player the WORTs they need to make the items.  Thought i'd make a lil money and help others.  I never sold to the merchant.  Now, the alchemist is oob.....which is why I see post all over the place indicating there is not ink to buy....because it's too time consumign to make and 75% of you will learn to make it yourself.....bottom line taking out the interdependencies after we've made some decisions on what we are and why was a bad move IMO.  I won't make any inks to sell and i won't make any WORTs to sell...it's a complete time pit and it's boring now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Combat / playability - </DIV> <DIV>Agility is completely useless now.  Defilers are only secondary healers in grp.  I can only comment on what i play.  Purchased horses are nerfed...i mean i out ran a horse yesterday....come on SOE....</DIV> <DIV>Instnced solo zones........never seen one.  </DIV> <DIV>It seems at every turn we are hit with restrictions of what you can and cna't do.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>there was a comment by a producer for this game that they tried to have this game restriction free.   all i see is that SOE continues to police everything about this game.  It's come to the point where the policing is so much that many feel that the game is no longer fun.  That is very sad.  I think the game is still playable but I think SOE needs to figure out a way to stop sitting the cookie jar on the table and then shooting us for trying to get a cookie.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What is fun is achieving something whether it's TS or adventuring....making progress to that next level so you can see what's over the mountain or being able to make a really cool ring etc....that's fun and with all role playign games the rewards are.....FAME AND MONEY.  the sooner SOE learns to quit making it unpleasant to achieve this the better off they will be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV>

[quetzaqotl]

<DIV>Just a comment regarding the druids having a leg up on shamans our regens DO NOT STACK i wish they would stack i dont know if this in test or something as i play live but to my knowledge and Im following the patch notes in the hope theyre gonna make regens stack they dont atm.</DIV> <DIV>(or you mean the bloom/regen/mossybalm combo which makes a regen for 20 secs do 210 hp per tick or something is that so much?)</DIV> <DIV>So pls. backoff on that subject cause we as  furies dont get a special treatment being carried on velvet cushions etc. we have a lot of issues with broken spells and subpar heals i know this is off topic but i dont like to read lies/mistakes about my class. </DIV> <P>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <SPAN class=date_text>02-25-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:45 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>02-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:17 AM</span>

[Bhagpuss]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> quetzaqotl wrote:<BR> <DIV>Just a comment regarding the druids having a leg up on shamans our regens DO NOT STACK i wish they would stack i dont know if this in test or something as i play live but to my knowledge and Im following the patch notes in the hope theyre gonna make regens stack they dont atm.</DIV> <DIV>(or you mean the bloom/regen/mossybalm combo which makes a regen for 20 secs do 210 hp per tick or something is that so much?)</DIV> <DIV>So pls. backoff on that subject cause we as  furies dont get a special treatment being carried on velvet cushions etc. we have a lot of issues with broken spells and subpar heals i know this is off topic but i dont like to read lies/mistakes about my class. </DIV> <P>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <SPAN class=date_text>02-25-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:45 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <SPAN class=date_text>02-25-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:17 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>I play a 28th Fury on Steamfont (among others) and my regens appear to stack, in that both icons appear in my buff bar. However, if I cast both Regrowth and Fleshweave together, only the heal effects of the higher spell takes effect. </P> <P>The other odd thing I noticed while testing this is that Regrowth, whichis now a grey-con spell to me, actually heals MORE than Fleshweave, which cons Orange. That would be odd enough, but my Regrowth is App3 and my Fleshweave is Adept 1. And the amounts given for the heals in the new descriptions are wrong- Regrowth is supposed to heal for 88, followed by 4 second ticks of 80, but it actually ticks for 89. Fleshweave, on the other hand, which is supposed to heal for 80, followed by ticks of 67 actually ticks for 80.</P>

[Styk]

buoymarker28 just curious about something? what kind of horse did you outrun? If it was a crusader horse, that was fixed because it was only mean to be a fluff ? Or a bought horse where the slowest one is still faster then SoW? clarify what type because unless you have SoW and bard speed on you , your not going to outrun the 9pp horses even after patch...