having to attune every piece of gear is garbage.

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<DIV>New patch is a crokc of [FAAR-NERFED!]!!!! SoE you made EVERY item attuenable? what is the point of that!  do you people not use your brains? If I find a armor chest plate at 45 and I want to give mine old one away to a lower lvl or sell it..since i bought the [FAAR-NERFED!] thing , im not allowed to? how ridiculous is that concept! you people kill me. </DIV>

[SwiftLegend]

<DIV>I agree. What the [FAAR-NERFED!] are you [FAAR-NERFED!] heads thinking? Now you can buy stuff from the broker at outragous prices to only be able to sell them back for a lousy 12-80 silver even if you paid 3-4 gold and outgrew it? What the [FAAR-NERFED!] is that? </DIV>

[OgreKnig]

I thought you can sell to an NPC? So all (verus the occasional lore item) NPC drops are set to attunable? I thought only player crafted stuff was going to be attunable?

[SwiftLegend]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> OgreKnight wrote:<BR>I thought you can sell to an NPC? So all (verus the occasional lore item) NPC drops are set to attunable? I thought only player crafted stuff was going to be attunable?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Everything is. Say good buy to guild vaults, say good bye to giving you friend gear you no longer use. Say good bye to it all because of crafters [FAAR-NERFED!]ing and whining!

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<DIV>This is pure and utter garbage SoE! My gear, that I bought with my gold I should be able to sell whenever I want! what planet are you from!!</DIV>

[aeio]

<blockquote><hr>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<DIV>New patch is a crokc of [FAAR-NERFED!]!!!! SoE you made EVERY item attuenable? what is the point of that! do you people not use your brains? If I find a armor chest plate at 45 and I want to give mine old one away to a lower lvl or sell it..since i bought the [FAAR-NERFED!] thing , im not allowed to? how ridiculous is that concept! you people kill me. </DIV><hr></blockquote>You can sell it to an NPC. Apparently your lack of hygiene has made the chest plate infectious and not usuable by another player. If you want to give something to a lower level, give them the money to buy another chest plate. You will be helping them, and you will be helping the economy.

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<DIV>You must be a fool, must be..the only way higher lvl players make money is by selling, if we dont want to be artisans. why FORCE us.  I dont want to give them money. If I quest IN everfrost and i find better gear I should be able to sell mine back.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Erronn]

<DIV>This has to be done to create an economy for new gear and weapons! It should have been this way from the start! I cheer SOE for finally getting it right!</DIV>

[aeio]

<blockquote><hr>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<DIV>You must be a fool, must be..the only way higher lvl players make money is by selling, if we dont want to be artisans. why FORCE us. I dont want to give them money. If I quest IN everfrost and i find better gear I should be able to sell mine back. </DIV><DIV> </DIV><hr></blockquote>You never sold an item on the market that you didn't wear first? Funny I sell stuff all the time I never used. Adventurers benefit from this too.So you are not really concerned about items being way too common, and nothing holding value, including adventurer drops. You are just worried about your very myopic and self-centered game experience, and how re-selling your loot now makes you feel better... Regardless of your feelings, you will be better off in the long run because of these changes.By the way I don't craft at all, and I sell lots of stuff, and have made a not insignificant amount of money... Only a tiny fraction of that has come from re-selling items I have used.

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<DIV>Why should we be forced to buy from an artisan? If you're an artisan and your making no profit you should be out of business, charge less and then maybe people will buy from you. Penalizing us for artisans greed is crass.</DIV>

[aeio]

<blockquote><hr>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<DIV>Why should we be forced to buy from an artisan? If you're an artisan and your making no profit you should be out of business, charge less and then maybe people will buy from you. Penalizing us for artisans greed is crass.</DIV><hr></blockquote>You apparently don't get it. You don't have to buy from an artisan. You get the items the same way you got them before. From mob drops, from quests, from pc merchants selling mob drop and quest items, or from crafters selling items on the marketplace.Most of my items now are not even crafted on my troubador.. Attunement doesn't change that at all.Take a deep breath and relax.. I think you need some time to absorb and understand these changes.

[theplayer0670]

<DIV>A NON flooded market is a good thing</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>it is what works so well in Worlds of Warcraft/Diablo III and it will work great in this game</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is a great step up and will put tradeskillers in much demand</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you dont like it, you know where the cancel button is. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but guess what, its the same in that "other game"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Only you get it better here, because crafting is more in depth, and Sony adds great content all the time</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[digitalblasphemy]

<blockquote><hr>OgreKnight wrote:I thought you can sell to an NPC? So all (verus the occasional lore item) NPC drops are set to attunable? I thought only player crafted stuff was going to be attunable?<hr></blockquote>No ALL items seem to be attune. Quested, looted, crafted. Everything.

[Rikini]

Actually, decided a re-word.The way I see things working, generally, now, at least in our guild, is this: We have say 12 full-time adventurers, 1 full-time crafsperson, and 5 people who do both equally. (for example) the way it is now, the adventurers are the money-makers. We go out adventuring. We get drops and components gathering. We come back, and sell, and give our craftsperson money and components. We're basically "footing the bill" for the artisans.Now, with the cost increases and attune changes coming, I see a 180 degree change coming. The artisans are going to be the ones giving stuff to their guild-mates for free, selling to outsiders, and actually even giving money to the adventurers which they'll use to purchase the consumables they need (food water and arrows, poisons, etc.) so they can go out and hunt drops and gather. It's the artisans who will "foot the bill" as it were.<p>Message Edited by Rikini on <span class=date_text>02-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:20 AM</span>

[CoolHandLuke]

<DIV>Well I think it is an excellent idea.  Good job Sony.</DIV>

[Aegori]

<DIV>I'll explain this in terms of simple economics.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Previously, we had an economy with an unlimited supply and limited demand. In this scenario, all demand will be met except for the rarest of items. Only these items will have value.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Currently, we have limited supply and limited demand. Since items are now forced out of the economy, it places value on ALL items as opposed to just the rare. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for trading items, the only items you wont be able to trade are items you used yourself. This, for me, constitutes maybe 10-15% of the items that ever go thru my inventory. The other 85-90% can be traded or sold via broker, just like before. What makes up for the 10-15% of the items i'm losing tho? i'll tell you... the new market now creates new demand for the 85-90% of items i'm going to be selling. Perhaps this will even inflate the market slightly so that we can sell our wares at slightly higher prices.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It all seems fair to me. Suggest you all try it out before calling BS. None of you could've been in game for more than an hour post-patch and you're already cancelling due to something you haven't even tried.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Aeg</DIV>

[Stjohnph]

Well for one the market sucks to start with, next they do this #2 and now you are going to lose another 50%-80% of the people left playing to wow, for not doing things right. If I have a friend that is a lower lvl then me, and i have stuff that would work for him/her well he is #2 out of luck cause i have to attune it so i could use it when i was his/her lvl. And yes I understand that the merchents in this game aren't happy because of the selling feature, and that is because of that fact I WILL NOT PAY 25$ each month to SIT IN MY ROOM AND PICK MY BACKSIDE to sell stuff. But dont make it harder than it is to have friends in this game and to have any sort of guild that helps each other out. I personaly know 30 people that would play this game if the selling thing was fixed ( they wont play till that is fixed, and that the only reason they dont play this and play WOW), and now I know about 25 more friends that will quit this game cause of this "ATTUNE PATCH". Now that is about $16000 a year that they will be out, and that is JUST ME. I'm sorry but Im tired of losing good friends to WOW cause SOE can get their heads out of their #2 holes.

[Yennik]

<DIV>If you step back and look at the big picture, long term effect of this, it is actually a good move by SOE.  WoW added something like this back in beta and everyone went nutz just like some are doing here now.  It helped their economy, and I'm sure it will do the same for us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Items need to leave the game from time to time, not just allways enter.  This is a better methode than having them decay like in SWG.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Yennik on <span class=date_text>02-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:34 AM</span>

[Yennik]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stjohnph wrote:<BR>Well for one the market sucks to start with, next they do this #2 and now you are going to lose another 50%-80% of the people left playing to wow, for not doing things right. If I have a friend that is a lower lvl then me, and i have stuff that would work for him/her well he is #2 out of luck cause i have to attune it so i could use it when i was his/her lvl. And yes I understand that the merchents in this game aren't happy because of the selling feature, and that is because of that fact I WILL NOT PAY 25$ each month to SIT IN MY ROOM AND PICK MY BACKSIDE to sell stuff. But dont make it harder than it is to have friends in this game and to have any sort of guild that helps each other out. I personaly know 30 people that would play this game if the selling thing was fixed ( they wont play till that is fixed, and that the only reason they dont play this and play WOW), and now I know about 25 more friends that will quit this game cause of this "ATTUNE PATCH". Now that is about $16000 a year that they will be out, and that is JUST ME. I'm sorry but Im tired of losing good friends to WOW cause SOE can get their heads out of their #2 holes.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Got news for ya... WoW hasd had 90%+ of their gear attune and can never be passed down sence late beta.  That might even be were SOE got the idea.

[Lancealittle]

<P>The only items you can't sell are the ones that you decide to use. If you would rather just get money for it, then sell it instead of attuning it. </P> <P>I don't see the problem here. If you're buddy wants to get the items you had at his levels, tell him where you got it and let him go do the work for himself.<BR></P>

[Rilia]

<DIV>Here is the basic gist of this.  No longer can I help out a friend or noob with a piece of equipment that has turned green/grey for me.  To have to attune every single piece of equipment is, in a word, stupid.  Why is my question.  What good can come out of it? Ok. So you can sell crap that you win in groups through lotto, etc and u can still sell stuff that you get from quests that you don't use.  All this will do is drive prices up, costing more for that item that used to sell for 20s.  Because once it's bought and attuned, that's it.  You have removed that item from the market forever.  So, more and more items become "rare" as more and more people purchase them and attune them.  So hurrah for higher selling prices, but boo because it will cost more to buy "upgrades" for your own equipment.  So a crafter will get more for his/her crafted item because it's more in demand, but it will also cost them more for fuels, etc to create them AND will cost them more to purchase their own upgrades for themselves.  So, you eliminate mob and quest items being resold more than once to create a demand for crafted items, but then you make it cost more for that crafted item than it cost before.  In doing so, you eliminate the ability of some people to afford to even buy that upgraded armour/spell/skill.  So if you sell 10 @ 20s each or you sell 3 @ 50s each, which one do you think benefits the community and the crafter as a whole?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Stack this on top of the entire mount speed reduction AND the cost of crafting increase, etc, you wind up with a nerf/patch that is going to drive more people to other games.  The nerf bat has done more to cripple/destroy EQ/EQ2 than anything else I know.  I for one, have had enough and will no longer play EQ2.  Who needs the headache, wondering when the nerf bat will fly next and what it will cripple next.  I am not alone, as just in my immediate circle of friends, I know of 4 other accounts which are being closed today and will not be coming back to SoE.  Add that up in a year x the amount of people leaving = alot of $$$ going to SoE's competitors (not just Blizzard, there's more out there than just WoW).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Great job there, Sony!  /wonders when they will make bags/boxes attunable as well.....</DIV>

[RioR]

<DIV>SOE took the easy way out to try and solve the problem. This is a big mistake.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[wishpishh]

If all the kids are quitting for WoW (which has the same feature, which will be fun for them to discover) before even trying this out, then I guess it's just good for this game. Be my guest.

[Aegori]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RioRio wrote:<BR> <DIV>SOE took the easy way out to try and solve the problem. This is a big mistake.</DIV> <DIV><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Explain please or stop the bandwagon mentality.</P> <P>-Aeg<BR></P> <DIV></FONT></DIV>

[Miral]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Yennik wrote:<BR> <DIV>If you step back and look at the big picture, long term effect of this, it is actually a good move by SOE.  WoW added something like this back in beta and everyone went nutz just like some are doing here now.  It helped their economy, and I'm sure it will do the same for us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Items need to leave the game from time to time, not just allways enter.  This is a better methode than having them decay like in SWG.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Yennik on <SPAN class=date_text>02-17-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:34 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Key word there is BETA. When you are still in beta, you don't have a currently existing living, breathing economy to take into account, you jsut have a test server that will be wiped at the end of testing. If this were implemented in beta, it mught be a good thing. But you don't put something this big on live servers with so little testing and expect the player base to accept it. nuh-uh, ain't happening

[aeio]

<blockquote><hr>Miral wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Yennik wrote:<BR><DIV>If you step back and look at the big picture, long term effect of this, it is actually a good move by SOE. WoW added something like this back in beta and everyone went nutz just like some are doing here now. It helped their economy, and I'm sure it will do the same for us.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Items need to leave the game from time to time, not just allways enter. This is a better methode than having them decay like in SWG.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><P>Message Edited by Yennik on <SPAN class=date_text>02-17-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:34 AM</SPAN><BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Key word there is BETA. When you are still in beta, you don't have a currently existing living, breathing economy to take into account, you jsut have a test server that will be wiped at the end of testing. If this were implemented in beta, it mught be a good thing. But you don't put something this big on live servers with so little testing and expect the player base to accept it. nuh-uh, ain't happening<hr></blockquote>Why? What difference does it make? The patch didn't attune any items for you. When you log in your items are not attuned or ruined from resale. So you have the choice as to how you wish to proceed.Sorry, but your argument doesn't hold water. This improves the economy, so it is a good thing to do. I like when people want MMOG developers don't want them to implement changes that are good for the long-term of the game because it might create a minor and tempoary inconveience.

[Miral]

<DIV>I'm mostly talking about the economy in general now... WoW took time to fix stuff in beta. EQ2 ignored most of its testers' comments, then rushed to beat WoW to teh shelves. This led to the game being released with many bugs in it, several of which were exploitable to gain fast amounts of money fast. Then the collector's edition item that sold for several platinum once the exploiters had that money... Basically as the economy sits now, those who exploited sit on top and get richer while the honest building blocks of the economy get punished and go broke. Weapons and armor have already traded hands so many times... I've seen so much twinking done by people who outgrow their armor... This damage is done, it cannot be reversed without a server wipe. This patch just ensures that they stay on top of the game while those newer to the experience, or unwilling to exploit something that is obviously a bug, struggle to even stay out of the basement...</DIV>

[MaximumCarna]

<DIV>What's not to understand?</DIV> <DIV>If items never leave the game it won't be long before you can't sell them for anything. Sooner rather than later I would bet they are going to allow people some way to sell outside their room. The only reason you are getting money for your drops now is a. selling to pcs is a hassle and b. the game is still young.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So in fact because of this change you will be making better money. You understand that unless you attune the item it is useable by anyone? Any drop you get that you decide not to use can be sold for some nice change, since their won't be 2000 copies of it being sold. You can still give money to crafters, but maybe you won't have to since they will actually be able to sell their wares for more than a few coppers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Giving green/gray to your alts or friends, while this is nice, its not doing much for the game. Try giving them some coin instead. Can you understand the damage done to the game when guilds will have huge vaults of recycled items so members never need to quest or buy or work to get them. BtW you can still have guild vaults with items from quests for other members, but they will only be used once. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Items must be removed from the game.</DIV>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<DIV>I just did all the attunement and guess what? I decided that its no use attuning those old boots and gloves so I immediately visited the broker for better stuff. Nothing there so I went on crafting some which I can now thanks to be able crafting patterns myself.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In my case the changes did a lot for motivation.</DIV>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<BR> <DIV>This is pure and utter garbage SoE! My gear, that I bought with my gold I should be able to sell whenever I want! what planet are you from!!</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> As this must come from someone who neiter crafts nor quests but just grinds and pays new stuff every 2-3 levels.....I couldnt care less about your problem.

[Dashofpepp]

<DIV>THREAD-HIJACK!!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Y'all are too funny.  Personally, I know 1,038 people who would play this game if everything worked exactly the way that I wanted it to!!!!  Their gaming decisions hinge on my every word!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know another 748.5 (.5 is 10 and under children) who are quitting this game because they all agree with me that the game isn't tailored to let me make piles of money to roll around in and impishly show off to my internet friends!!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Gah.  Convert all your money into copper pieces and you'll feel rich again.  You can even tell people that you have SO MUCH MONEY that it makes you walk slowly.  Or tell them that it is your natural [Removed for Content] strut.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Retribution - Befallen</DIV>

[WayOfTheSto]

<DIV>Hmmm.... most people who don't like this seem confused- let me give you a crash course in economics-</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) prices are determined by: the availability of an item versus it's demand. For example, Car prices are based on A) how many were made that year, and B) how many cars people bought last year.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) So, If, in the above example, production continued at it's normal rate, but cars never break down, or get too old  to run properly, then once everyone has a car, no one will ever need to buy one again. Moreover, no one will ever be able to resell their car if they want a new one, because everyone already has a car that is never going to get "used up."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3) Now lets apply this to the world of EQ2: Take Forged carbonite vangaurd armor, for example, a staple of the 20 something fighter. Once a server reaches it's "peak" (ie, the ratio of new players to players leaving EQ stabilizes), and they all will eventually, there will only be "x" number of carbonite armor needed to supply ALL the lvl 20 something characters.  SInce, as it was previously, The armor would never be sold to a vendor, but almost ALWAYS resold via the merchant, <FONT color=#ff6600>The supply would only increase as tradeskillers crafted more, but demand would go no where. hence, all armor,  weapons, furniture, even rare crafted and looted items, would eventually become WORTHLESS.</FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>  If this is a difficult concept for you, imagine this: If No one ever needed to eat food, how long do you think the agriculture industry would last? If goods are never "consumed," eventually no new goods will be required. Attuning is a way of "consuming" items.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lastly, this is a huge step in the direction of stopping twinking.  If your guildies want to help you or their friends, let them lend a hand in combat, or buy you some new stuff.   I have seen enough fresh lvl 30's with full sets of Feyiron and Velium  and good mounts to make my head spin, and it's about time that your low level alts have to play on the same feild as our low level mains. (not that 30 is particularly low, just an example <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One last thing: the OP was right about heritage items: make them no-sell.  Those items are made for you to use, or sell immediately.  There is no market for them,  so, theres on reason to make them sellable.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>This Message courtesy of the great McBoneshaft Clan<BR>"I TOLD them Stormhold was a bad idea...."<BR>-Bloodfist McBoneshaft, Patriarch for the last 207 years</DIV>

[aeio]

<blockquote><hr>WayOfTheStone wrote:<DIV>Hmmm.... most people who don't like this seem confused- let me give you a crash course in economics-</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>1) prices are determined by: the availability of an item versus it's demand. For example, Car prices are based on A) how many were made that year, and B) how many cars people bought last year.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>2) So, If, in the above example, production continued at it's normal rate, but cars never break down, or get too old to run properly, then once everyone has a car, no one will ever need to buy one again. Moreover, no one will ever be able to resell their car if they want a new one, because everyone already has a car that is never going to get "used up."</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>3) Now lets apply this to the world of EQ2: Take Forged carbonite vangaurd armor, for example, a staple of the 20 something fighter. Once a server reaches it's "peak" (ie, the ratio of new players to players leaving EQ stabilizes), and they all will eventually, there will only be "x" number of carbonite armor needed to supply ALL the lvl 20 something characters. SInce, as it was previously, The armor would never be sold to a vendor, but almost ALWAYS resold via the merchant, <FONT color=#ff6600>The supply would only increase as tradeskillers crafted more, but demand would go no where. hence, all armor, weapons, furniture, even rare crafted and looted items, would eventually become WORTHLESS.</FONT><FONT color=#ffffff> If this is a difficult concept for you, imagine this: If No one ever needed to eat food, how long do you think the agriculture industry would last? If goods are never "consumed," eventually no new goods will be required. Attuning is a way of "consuming" items.</FONT></DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Lastly, this is a huge step in the direction of stopping twinking. If your guildies want to help you or their friends, let them lend a hand in combat, or buy you some new stuff. I have seen enough fresh lvl 30's with full sets of Feyiron and Velium and good mounts to make my head spin, and it's about time that your low level alts have to play on the same feild as our low level mains. (not that 30 is particularly low, just an example <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>One last thing: the OP was right about heritage items: make them no-sell. Those items are made for you to use, or sell immediately. There is no market for them, so, theres on reason to make them sellable.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>This Message courtesy of the great McBoneshaft Clan<BR>"I TOLD them Stormhold was a bad idea...."<BR>-Bloodfist McBoneshaft, Patriarch for the last 207 years</DIV><hr></blockquote>This makes an excellent point that those complaining they can't resell items on the market have missed. Ultimately almost every item in the game will be worth what it sells to merchants for... With no way of items leaving the economy they will NOT be able to sell their used armor for anything more than the merchant would give them. On top of that any loot they got from a quest or off a mob would be equally as worthless. Fact is the marketplace would be devoid of activity because almost all items in the game would reach vendor trash worthlessness.

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<DIV>you people crack me up. If I wish to grind and I have just as much say as you greedy artisans. I pay my 14.99 a month juts like you do, you [FAAR-NERFED!]. You think you got more rights than I because I want to sit in you little box and craft? be my guest. At lvl 43 most artisan stuff is worthless to me. Its about handing down stuff to our lower lvls and being able to sell my stuff at a decent price, but no matter. We'll see how much this helps the economy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>People make money by selling stuff, right? and they turn around and use it buy your trash. Now this " help the economy out" will only jack up prices..so how is this helping the economy? Well see. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This patch only forces people to become artisans.  Its trash, whether you agree or not, because unless you're an artisan U are losing out.</DIV>

[Lars]

<DIV>Im working artisan on 3 out of 4 characters....and i think this attune thing is absolute rubbish.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its all about greed and has very little to do about gameplay....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im fixing it so those interested in artisan in my guild are all going in all different ways so the guild will support itself with gear because i refuse to hand my hard earned coins to a greedy armourer who overprices his goods to oblivion. Instead im making my own armourer and i will trade my goods with people for what they make with their artisans. This is not a better economy than we have now which is a free market where you can buy and sell whatever you wish its actually a huge step back to old times barter system. Money will become secondary and items will become primary. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How are SoE planning to compensate carpenters ?? Attuneable beds and chandeliers ?? YAY!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I thought patches were supposed to make the game better....how foolish of me</DIV>

[Aegori]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lars-T wrote:<BR> <DIV>Im working artisan on 3 out of 4 characters....and i think this attune thing is absolute rubbish.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its all about greed and has very little to do about gameplay....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im fixing it so those interested in artisan in my guild are all going in all different ways so the guild will support itself with gear because i refuse to hand my hard earned coins to a greedy armourer who overprices his goods to oblivion. Instead im making my own armourer and i will trade my goods with people for what they make with their artisans. This is not a better economy than we have now which is a free market where you can buy and sell whatever you wish its actually a huge step back to old times barter system. Money will become secondary and items will become primary. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How are SoE planning to compensate carpenters ?? Attuneable beds and chandeliers ?? YAY!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I thought patches were supposed to make the game better....how foolish of me</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Not understanding this opinion tho... just hear me out. You're speaking as if this change makes us rely on artisans for our equipment now. All this change has done is given them a place in the market. Dropped/quested items will still be prevalent in the marketplace, they just won't be as common as they used to be. This gives room for crafters to make money while adventurers can make money off their goods as well. You'll still have plenty of option as far as equipment goes, whether it be from artisan or adventurer. The only items adventurers cannot sell to other players are the ones they equip. i would say 85-90% of items aren't equipped and are sold or traded to others. The change places value on everyone's goods and creates a fair and stable market.</P> <P>-Aeg</FONT></P>

[Lancealittle]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lars-T wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I thought patches were supposed to make the game better....how foolish of me</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Some think this is better and others do not. </P> <P>It's hard for us normal people to see why every change get's made, but SOE obviously think this idea will be good for the game. They don't do things to 'try' and chase off customers after all.</FONT></P> <P>Any change they make will upset someone. They may decide to remove a rock that sits outside of Freeport and there would be some player that get's so mad he cancels his account. We may not understand why it would upset him so much, but in his mind it was justified.</P> <P>This is obviously much bigger than a rock, but some of us understand these changes, and others don't.<BR></P>

[Lars]

<DIV>Id put it like this:"a few might like the changes, most does not".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think its a shame not allowing a free market and i can say that when this goes live ive bought my last crafted item on broker and im only gonna barter with friends for items and guildies, thats my way of protesting this stupidity. A self providing guild and exchanging items with friends will make it even harder for other artisans if all do this. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thats the way im gonna play this, the coins i make will be in my pocket and not in some moaning other artisans...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Result will be that my guild will have its own "mini-economy" where a few freinds outside the guild will have access.</DIV>

[SwiftLegend]

<DIV align=left>LMFAO what a joke! A vanguard helm which cost 2gp to buy sells back to a vendor after attuned for a lousy [FAAR-NERFED!]ing 3 silver. What a good idea sony... haha yea right [FAAR-NERFED!] you!</DIV>

[Aegori]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SwiftLegend wrote:<BR> <DIV align=left>LMFAO what a joke! A vanguard helm which cost 2gp to buy sells back to a vendor after attuned for a lousy [FAAR-NERFED!]ing 3 silver. What a good idea sony... haha yea right [FAAR-NERFED!] you!</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>player made or merchant bought? player made prolly took 10sp to make and this price is appropriate. I know for a fact, unless it's changed significantly with this patch, that merchant bought vanguard armor sells back for quite a bit more than that. </P> <P>btw... there's something to be said for the art of communication. Have purpose and meaning behind what you say if you expect results to come from it. If you dont, then just be quiet and let people who do talk.</P> <P>-Aeg</P>

[Verdyn]

<DIV>My problem doesn't come from the idea to remove items in the market.  Over time, in EQ1, the market for crafted goods died because the market was flooded with quested drops that everyone knew were better.  This all-atune policy is just a preventative measure to stop that from happening.  While it's a bit strange to see <STRONG>everything</STRONG> I own attuned, I can understand the "logic" behind it.  What doesn't make sense to me is the sellback price for some of the items.  The devs must have some blind clue of what items are worth in this game, especially the Heritage quests and other time-consuming quest items.  When it comes time to upgrade, it's going to kill me to see an item I quested hours upon hours for sell for a couple gold pieces.  The sellback of attuned items should be reflected in the difficulty of acquisition.  I know they want to take money out of the economy, but come on...  The giant difference in buy/sell values makes consistent upgrades in equip impossible.  It's going to get to the point that people put off necessary item upgrades for levels at a time because of the huge hit they'll take when they actually do upgrade.  Give us money for our rare items, please.</DIV>

[Aegori]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Verdyn wrote:<BR> <DIV>My problem doesn't come from the idea to remove items in the market.  Over time, in EQ1, the market for crafted goods died because the market was flooded with quested drops that everyone knew were better.  This all-atune policy is just a preventative measure to stop that from happening.  While it's a bit strange to see <STRONG>everything</STRONG> I own attuned, I can understand the "logic" behind it.  What doesn't make sense to me is the sellback price for some of the items.  The devs must have some blind clue of what items are worth in this game, especially the Heritage quests and other time-consuming quest items.  When it comes time to upgrade, it's going to kill me to see an item I quested hours upon hours for sell for a couple gold pieces.  The sellback of attuned items should be reflected in the difficulty of acquisition.  I know they want to take money out of the economy, but come on...  The giant difference in buy/sell values makes consistent upgrades in equip impossible.  It's going to get to the point that people put off necessary item upgrades for levels at a time because of the huge hit they'll take when they actually do upgrade.  Give us money for our rare items, please.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> this is a good direction to take the argument. This perhaps does need some looking into. While you can still make good money selling stuff you dont attune, the attuned stuff should retain a value according to its level IMHO. There have been a few items i've been disappointed in seeing their sellback price. This, atm, may just be a preventative measure so that too much money doesn't make its way into the economy. The stance taken by devs, as seen in a post by the lead designer, is that they need to evaluate before relaxing certain aspects of the game. This may be the case in this situation, but i wont speculate too much.

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lars-T wrote:<BR> <DIV>Im fixing it so those interested in artisan in my guild are all going in all different ways so the guild will support itself with gear because i refuse to hand my hard earned coins to a greedy armourer who overprices his goods to oblivion. <BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#66ff66>Actually armorers will have to DROP prices </FONT>since the resell value of their goods is near to zero - think about it for a moment.</P> <P>You just said you wont buy overpriced and your not alone I'd say...but being a (lousy tier2) armorer myself I allready know I cant sell my stuff tommorow for the same price as yesterday.</P> <P>PS: Funny enough though that i pay 50 silver for appIV without complaining although i know i will need better. Did no one realize so far that <FONT color=#66ff66>spells and runes</FONT> have always been worse than attunable because they were actually consumed?</P>

[Malifest]

<DIV>This doesn't completely fix the problem with getting items out of the system, immediately.  Sure people will loot an item and then sell it to Player who will attune it and then later it leaves the economy.  But, no longer will people say 'cool this item has 1 more wisdom and 30 more resist I will wear that instead'.  People will say, "it ONLY has 1 more wisdom and 30 more resist, I'll just sell it".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know this might hurt in the long run.  I do think people will understand the whole need for items to leave the economy, but there will be side effects.  The one above is just one of them.  I know I won't be upgrading my items until it is really worth it.  Otherwise I bet I will need the money.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We'll see.</DIV>

[Khale]

<DIV>The only problem I have with having to attune all items is that in the end it's actually going to cost me more for the items I want for my characters. If the market is flooded with items that's good for me. That means I can wait a little bit and pick up the item I want cheap and then continually be saving money for a skeletal horse or other things I want to buy. Now, I can always count on having to pay top coin for an item because there won't really be any competition in the market. I forsee that items will sell for sky high prices now because once it's attuned its gone and you have to wait for someone else to want to sell one. When dmeand outgrows the supply prices skyrocket. This is never good for an economy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Aegori]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Khaleel wrote:<BR> <DIV>The only problem I have with having to attune all items is that in the end it's actually going to cost me more for the items I want for my characters. If the market is flooded with items that's good for me. That means I can wait a little bit and pick up the item I want cheap and then continually be saving money for a skeletal horse or other things I want to buy. Now, I can always count on having to pay top coin for an item because there won't really be any competition in the market. I forsee that items will sell for sky high prices now because once it's attuned its gone and you have to wait for someone else to want to sell one. When dmeand outgrows the supply prices skyrocket. This is never good for an economy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>while i agree, i believe this will only be short term for 2 reasons. 1) a limited, spread out supply within an economy creates more competition. This alone will drive prices back down. 2) Crafters will be supplying many more of the items they viewed as worthless in the past, including armor/weapons/etc. These items simply had no value because they could be easily replaced by a quested/dropped item via the broker. The dropped/quested items option hasn't disappeared, but it has diminished making a crafter market much more viable. This along with the crafted item balance upcoming (as stated by a dev) should make for a lot more crafted items seen on the market, which will drive prices down.</P> <P>Hopefully this theory hold true neway <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> been awhile since my economics days.</P> <P>-Aeg<BR></P>

[SwiftLegend]

<DIV>The only way to fight back is to oversell harvested resources <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Malifest]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aegorian wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Khaleel wrote:<BR> <DIV>The only problem I have with having to attune all items is that in the end it's actually going to cost me more for the items I want for my characters. If the market is flooded with items that's good for me. That means I can wait a little bit and pick up the item I want cheap and then continually be saving money for a skeletal horse or other things I want to buy. Now, I can always count on having to pay top coin for an item because there won't really be any competition in the market. I forsee that items will sell for sky high prices now because once it's attuned its gone and you have to wait for someone else to want to sell one. When dmeand outgrows the supply prices skyrocket. This is never good for an economy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>while i agree, i believe this will only be short term for 2 reasons. 1) a limited, spread out supply within an economy creates more competition. This alone will drive prices back down. 2) Crafters will be supplying many more of the items they viewed as worthless in the past, including armor/weapons/etc. These items simply had no value because they could be easily replaced by a quested/dropped item via the broker. The dropped/quested items option hasn't disappeared, but it has diminished making a crafter market much more viable. This along with the crafted item balance upcoming (as stated by a dev) should make for a lot more crafted items seen on the market, which will drive prices down.</P> <P>Hopefully this theory hold true neway <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> been awhile since my economics days.</P> <P>-Aeg<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>I don't see it that way, not completely anyways.  The prices for crafted items now is supply and demand, since usually a person is buying the item because they - want, need, can't find a different item to loot/quest for.  However the looted items are still supply side economics.  If the player base doesn't keep getting refreshed I could see how a lvl 35-40 loot would be cheaper then a lvl 20 loot because there just isn't people on to loot and sell lvl 20 items at the same volume as the average level of that server's players.</P> <P> </P>

[Pheeb]

What does Attune give you anyway? is it a fluff action? I mean, I've read that NOT attuning some armor will make the armor absolutely useless like if you did not have it - so again, what's the point of equipping some armor and not attuning it? it's either you attune or you sell - no in-between...would appreciate some clarification(s) in the EQ2 in-game effect to attune something?

[aeio]

<blockquote><hr>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<DIV>you people crack me up. If I wish to grind and I have just as much say as you greedy artisans. I pay my 14.99 a month juts like you do, you [FAAR-NERFED!]. You think you got more rights than I because I want to sit in you little box and craft? be my guest. At lvl 43 most artisan stuff is worthless to me. Its about handing down stuff to our lower lvls and being able to sell my stuff at a decent price, but no matter. We'll see how much this helps the economy.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>People make money by selling stuff, right? and they turn around and use it buy your trash. Now this " help the economy out" will only jack up prices..so how is this helping the economy? Well see. </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>This patch only forces people to become artisans. Its trash, whether you agree or not, because unless you're an artisan U are losing out.</DIV><hr></blockquote>Take a basic economy class it might open your eyes a bit... MMOG economies are very primitive in nature... But you not understanding why price increases, stability and value can be a good thing for an economy means you need to do a little studying.

[UrkBloodA]

<DIV>Did SoE ax the entire QA staff?  I mean was it play tested?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-- response to 1-stars --</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>QA is defined as Quality Assurance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just in case you didn't know.  Some items still have old sell back prices.  Also, in direct relation to this thread there are crafted wearable items which do not require attunement.  Personally I don't know if I like or dislike attunement - I only question the way in which it brought from concept to live.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you don't like my sig - sorry - but it is a real quote.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by UrkBloodAxe on <span class=date_text>02-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:44 PM</span>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<DIV>Let me put it to you this way. If artisan X puts up a BP for 10 gold, and IM getting 3 silver when I sell my stuff back..umm..where that that other gold come from? Since I'm not an artisan I have no other means of income other than selling on broker. SO in 3 weeks Artisan X has 50 gold and I have 10 gold in the bank..yeah, thats sounds real fair to me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Because he has to sell at a certain price..its now more expensive to craft. Am I wrong?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>only player-made gear should be attuenable</DIV><p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class=date_text>02-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:34 PM</span>

[Razie Ber]

Agreed. Reselling our gear is the only means for us to make money above the mediocre offers of NPC merchants... Crafters already dominate the economy.. now I'll never afford anything without crafting.. which I thought was supposed to be optional, not mandatory.

[einar4]

<DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It will be nice if this results in improved stats for the attunable (crafted) pieces.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Valta]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<BR> <DIV>New patch is a crokc of [FAAR-NERFED!]!!!! SoE you made EVERY item attuenable? what is the point of that!  do you people not use your brains? If I find a armor chest plate at 45 and I want to give mine old one away to a lower lvl or sell it..since i bought the [FAAR-NERFED!] thing , im not allowed to? how ridiculous is that concept! you people kill me. </DIV> <P><BR> <HR> </P> <P> </P> <P>you are a [Removed for Content] sir, as far as all the others whining. this crap you are talking about is why the economy were always broken for all crafters. I know you little adventurers dont like to spend cash but you HAVE TO or remove crafting from the game since its useless.</P> <P>I am an adventurer too and I know the feeling, I hate spending cash for equipment, once I got something nice I want to use it as long as possible and when Im done I want to pass it to someone else and still make lot of cash on it.</P> <P>You all think you spent the cash for equipment and once you outgrove it you have to sell it, or it does not make up for the cost. You are totaly wrong. You have used the equipment to level and to earn cash, during this time your equipment made it all up worth what you spend. That you want to still make great profit is understandable but not possible.</P> <P>I am a tailor for 40 levels now and I can tell you, in all this time I sold only 3 sets of leather armor, 2 robes, no sets of clothing and like 100 bagpacks. Thats not the point why I am a crafter. With the old system there is just no market for crafted items. </P> <P>Be happy the items are only attunable, so when you use them, you use them as long as possible and still can sell it for litthe cash!</P> <P>All crafters here would prefer a decay item system. There anything you would use would go "poof" when you use it enough and you would a) have to spend new cash for new equipment and b) you would never get anything back, doesnt matter how few it was!</P> <P>Be happy and stop whining.</P> <P>There is a lot of nerfs in this patch when it goes life BUT the stuff with the attunable items is a very good thing and the most of us "crafters" would love it to have decay of items in game, it would be even better.</P> <P>You make four cash with NPCs that are there for free and have only to be killed, I make my cash with crafting. Since I cant sell to NPC, I have to sell to players and the only players needing my stuff are those who go out and kill bad beasts. Heck people, use your common human sense!!!</P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Razie Berry wrote:<BR>Crafters already dominate the economy.. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I cant argue about that - but i always thought adventurers dominate the other 90% of the gaming world AND win the uberdrops no artisan will ever get close to.</P> <P>Of course if everybody thinks this game *wins* who has the most money at the end of the day....than crafters are in an advantage...<BR></P>

[Valta]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Razie Berry wrote:<BR>Crafters already dominate the economy.. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I cant argue about that - but i always thought adventurers dominate the other 90% of the gaming world AND win the uberdrops no artisan will ever get close to.</P> <P>Of course if everybody thinks this game *wins* who has the most money at the end of the day....than crafters are in an advantage...<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Hm I have a crafter and I have no money at all, maybe its because Im not abusing the system and produce only I can use myseslf or sell to others instaed to npcs... so thats why the upcoming tradeskill changes will not affect me at all, except I can make my own patterns and dont have to pay ridicuouls prices.</P> <P>The only people rich are the bot crafets or power crafters who just make crude stuff since T4 and sell it to npc. And of course they are affected now the most, they cant make cash that easily anymore. (btw I tried it, I need about 7 minutes to make one stack of interim which I sell for 3g profit).</P>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Valtaya wrote:<BR><BR> <P>Hm I have a crafter and I have no money at all, maybe its because Im not abusing the system and produce only I can use myseslf or sell to others instaed to npcs... so thats why the upcoming tradeskill changes will not affect me at all, except I can make my own patterns and dont have to pay ridicuouls prices.</P> <P>The only people rich are the bot crafets or power crafters who just make crude stuff since T4 and sell it to npc. And of course they are affected now the most, they cant make cash that easily anymore. (btw I tried it, I need about 7 minutes to make one stack of interim which I sell for 3g profit).<BR> <HR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE>exactly my own situation - apart from this interim that makes 3g profit <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> but no headaches here, i sold my /claim statue for 15g and havent had any use for the extra money so far, questing and crafting keeps me well geared and fed :smileyhappy:<BR>

[Miral]

<DIV>I still say giving more variety in tradeskilling would fix everything much better than attunerizing everything...</DIV> <DIV>give options and variables so that chances are no 2 pieces of crafted armor on the broker will be the same. People will be able to choose between many more crafted items... Have different components that offer different stats. Also have armor and weps with magical effects (like say, a silver tipped longsword that does extra damage against zombies, or a mirror plated breastplate that gives attackers a negative modifier to hit success)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But if SOE is too busy (read: lazy) to do an intricate system like that, at least let armorers refit armor and weaponsmiths regrip/sharpen weapons... Make it take the pre-made item in the primary component slot and have the finished item have the stats of that armor piece upon a 3bar combine (with percentages or lower or higher stats determined for pristine, crude, or shaped)</DIV><p>Message Edited by Miral on <span class=date_text>02-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:30 PM</span>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Miral wrote:<BR> <DIV>I still say giving more variety in tradeskilling would fix everything much better than attunerizing everything...</DIV> <DIV>give options and variables so that chances are no 2 pieces of crafted armor on the broker will be the same. People will be able to choose between many more crafted items... Have different components that offer different stats. Also have armor and weps with magical effects (like say, a silver tipped longsword that does extra damage against zombies, or a mirror plated breastplate that gives attackers a negative modifier to hit success)</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I cant argue about that - even such a *meaningless* thing as colouring would skyrocket sales..</FONT>

[aeio]

<blockquote><hr>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<DIV>Let me put it to you this way. If artisan X puts up a BP for 10 gold, and IM getting 3 silver when I sell my stuff back..umm..where that that other gold come from? Since I'm not an artisan I have no other means of income other than selling on broker. SO in 3 weeks Artisan X has 50 gold and I have 10 gold in the bank..yeah, thats sounds real fair to me.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Because he has to sell at a certain price..its now more expensive to craft. Am I wrong?</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>only player-made gear should be attuenable</DIV><p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class=date_text>02-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:34 PM</span><hr></blockquote>You might need to learn how to loot mobs... I don't remember if this is covered in the IOR tutorial, but you may want to go back and check... Because I can get 10 gold in a couple hours of play time at level 37 just from garbage I sell to vendors... So certainly you can find ways to earn cash as an adventurer.

[Miral]

<DIV>actually its covered on The Far Journey, which a lot of people skip... But regardless, until you have tier 3 zone access money is much harder to come by for a pure adventurer</DIV>

[skr]

<DIV>So, basically, the full set of armor that I spent 8 gold to update, 4 levels ago, and will outgrow in 2-3 levels, is worth absolute [Removed for Content] crap to a merchant.... THANX SoE, way to screw the Adventurer over! Approximate selling price, per piece, for the armor I had just bought, was about 1gold 50 silver per piece, and now they sell to a merchant, for, get ready for this one! 4 SILVER!!!!!! WooHoo!!!!!! Wow, we're REALLY gonna make some cash on that deal!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And, for all you crafters out there, think about this.... Us adventurers are spending this amount of cash, buying items that YOU craft... Therefore, YOU are making a profit from them... What happens, when the adventurer runs outta cash, and cant make any of it back from selling to a lower level player, that can actually USE the item? Hint: YOU ALL GET SCREWED, and can't sell jack crap, after this patch flattens the economy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Real Life application, of this screwed over new economy system:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>        </DIV> <DIV>        Wal-Mart (Tradeskillers) makes Item X, it costs them 1 gold to make. Consumer(Adventurer), would LOVE to buy this item, for 1 gold 50 silver, yet the government has taken away ALL jobs, except for the ones at Wal-Mart (Becoming a Tradeskiller).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Basically, tradeskillers can make ALL the items they want to... But if there is NO WAY for Adventurers to make cash, besides becoming a tradeskiller themselves, there isnt going to be anyone to buy them!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And, I cant even begin to imagine how the tradeskillers feel, about half this patch either... "Hello, my name is (insert tradeskillers name here), and I am a 40th level Alchemist... The only problem is, (insert another tradeskillers name here), the 40th level Jeweler over there, can make the SAME ITEMS that I can, and no longer needs to purchase them from me, so I get screwed just about as hard as Adventurers!"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its called, "Economy Flow".... If the prices to make an item increase, the price of the sellable item is going to increase, therefore the consumer is going to need more access to forms of cash making, to afford such item. Not, "Hey, we're gonna increase the price it takes, to make a craftable item, then take away all the resources the consumer has to afford the item"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In my opinion, SoE needs to seriously rethink this last patch, change it in some other way, where it benefits ALL that play EQ2, not screw each and everyone of us over, Adventurers and Tradeskillers alike, or they will be losing ALOT of their player-base real soon.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Forgive me, if I missed anything on the tradeskillers end, that has made it harder for them to make items, but I have only gotten the general idea of it from my roomate, who is a tradeskiller... We all got screwed over on this patch, whether we are a Tradeskiller, or an Adventurer.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by skrik on <SPAN class=date_text>02-17-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:46 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by skrik on <span class=date_text>02-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:47 PM</span>

[Sinuvil]

<DIV>I post very little, but this last patch I really liked basically nothing in it. Making everthing attunted is garbage. I know you want to fix the economy and stop inflation, but there must be a better way than this. Basically its saying if you want anything good especially dropped items you have to quest or get a rare drop yourself, or if you ever choose to use it you may never sell it for any value. My total equipment at level 37 SK was worth at least 3 plat before the patch, now worth about 5 gold to a vendor. Sixty silver pieces for an Ancient Slayer ring??? I believe I got almost 50 just for a turtle shell! Thats a value based economy? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I try to see the reasons behind all the nerfs and not complain, I understand why my Shadowknight horse was nerfed and Im fine*though I may not agree*, I even understand and agree its a good idea to attune crafted items, but this attuning all items just makes the game less fun to me. Part of the fun is handing down items to my lower guildmates as a guild leader or using them on my alts, or selling someone a cool item they were looking for that I dont need anymore. I really think there would be a better way to do this than this seemingly quick fix. I'm very disappointed.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Sinuvil on <span class=date_text>02-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:04 PM</span>

[Severi]

The only question that I have to ask the people who disagree with the attuning of the items is.. How do you make it so craftsman are useful forever? If you stop and think about it for a second and go ahead in the future 2 years there will be so much armor, weapons, everything in the game that craftsman would probably be required to make nothing. Do we want to see 50 of the same breast plates on the broker and none of it selling? If SOE decided to put in item decay that was only repairable so many times (SWG) would you like that better? You may say to yourself, "I am not an artisan why should I suffer", my answer to a question like that is this game is designed around artisans and adventurers not just one or the other. Please I encourage you to suggest a better way to keep new items flowing through the market. Personally I think we got off easy cause I would rather see items decay into nothingness!Sev

[Kasandria]

simple Severity. You make it so that craftsmen can repair what they make better than the current menders.There are probably other ways as well to remove equipment. Say.. you can trash equipment for status points. That way the players feel that they get something for cleaning up the economy. That way if an item gets too low in value because too many are in the game then it becomes better for people to trash that particular item. Those things that are hard to get won't get trashed. shrugs Also, it would be OK with me to set up so that there are certain classes of items that can't be repaired more then 2000 times or something (just picking a number don't get over stuck on that point). You don't have to remove EVERY item from the economy NOW to keep the economy healthy. TSers shouldn't be made valuable at the cost of the adventurers time.

[Aegori]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sinuvil wrote:<BR> <DIV>I post very little, but this last patch I really liked basically nothing in it. Making everthing attunted is garbage. I know you want to fix the economy and stop inflation, but there must be a better way than this. Basically its saying if you want anything good especially dropped items you have to quest or get a rare drop yourself, or if you ever choose to use it you may never sell it for any value. My total equipment at level 37 SK was worth at least 3 plat before the patch, now worth about 5 gold to a vendor. Sixty silver pieces for an Ancient Slayer ring??? I believe I got almost 50 just for a turtle shell! Thats a value based economy? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I try to see the reasons behind all the nerfs and not complain, I understand why my Shadowknight horse was nerfed and Im fine*though I may not agree*, I even understand and agree its a good idea to attune crafted items, but this attuning all items just makes the game less fun to me. Part of the fun is handing down items to my lower guildmates as a guild leader or using them on my alts, or selling someone a cool item they were looking for that I dont need anymore. I really think there would be a better way to do this than this seemingly quick fix. I'm very disappointed.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Sinuvil on <SPAN class=date_text>02-17-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:04 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Well here's the situation as i see it. Looking at the evolution of MMO economies, you see the following. Starting with EQ1, you have a shambles of an economy because there's no mechanism to remove items from the economy besides destroying them. This makes every item, except extraordinarily rare items worthless. Move to next generation MMOs and the concept of decay. This didnt work because everyone hated it. They didn't want to have to worrry about equipment failure over time and eventual destruction. This put so much of a burden on players, that the idea was basically a detriment to the games that had it. Come this generation of MMO... WoW and EQ2 both have attuning. This is their effort to maintain an economy by keeping as many items they can in the economy while taking out all the utilized items. It's a concept that, in theory, can work, but is new and will take some time to see how the interactions between various play types (artisan vs adventurer) will play out. There's a delicate balance between how fast items leave the economy and how fast money will enter the economy. I'm sure there's going to be a lot more tuning on this feature for months to come.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I see it this way... we can either sit here and complain about it until we're blue in the face, or we can accept it and try to work with it. This mechanism is the now of MMOs and i would venture to say it's here to stay. Everyone has admittedly given a good amount of effort in developing their characters, and it would be a shame to waste all of that without giving the concept a fair shake. Honestly, in WoW beta, this same reaction was had, but now in the live version, there aren't really many arguements to be found over the issue. It seems to work, and all we can do is hope it works as well with EQ2. I know i'm always an optimist, but hey... what've you got to lose by giving it a shot? Even if someone cancels now, they still have the rest of your month to try it, and i think they should at least that chance it and give it a try just based on the amount of effort some people have put heir charcters. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Aeg </DIV>

[Kasandria]

what've you got to lose by giving it a shot?More money and time the fruits of which will be ripped from us just like this one ripped so much from us.

[Aegori]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kasandria wrote:<BR>what've you got to lose by giving it a shot?<BR><BR>More money and time the fruits of which will be ripped from us just like this one ripped so much from us.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> then stop. you do have a choice in the matter.

[Runeblade]

<DIV>Let me first preface what I have to say with the fact that Im no great fan of SoE procedures and changes in most cases.  However in this case I am 100% behind their recent changes as much as I am their change of heart in passing along those upcoming changes to let us know whats going on.  You wouldn't believe how many people logged on today and were like "[FAAR-NERFED!]".  Read the forums people, it's an MMORPG.  Stuff changes from the manual.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First of all SoE is a business, and it wants it's game to last a good long time so that it can profit.  Thats the name of the game.  Sony will modify it's game to attract the most people it can, but it has to balance that with the desired lifespan of the game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Attuning your equipment helps everyone.  Hear me out.  Not only does it affect the craftsman it also affects the adventurer, and it very much affects those of us who are a hybrid of the two.  The craftsman gains are obvious, the benefits to the adventurer is that now, for every piece of equipment you get your paws on, the value for the weapon or armor has _increased_.  Instead of selling that attuneable chestplate that just dropped for a pittance (because everyone has one), it is now worth far far more.  Yes your equipment will cost more, but your drops will make up for that in value.  How many items over the life of your char are you going to attune anyway?  Only a fraction of your drops, if you're smart anyway.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What sends me into gales of laughter are the morons who will spend 25g on an unscathed gnoll bone but go into wide eyed terror when you tell them that the price for their weapon is 2g.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Think about spells.  Isn't that an attuneable piece of "equipment"?  Why can't you resell it when it goes grey on you?  The reason is because you have gotten value out of the spell by usage.  This is as true as the value you get from your equipment.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do have to be honest and say that I was initially very angry about the recent changes, when they were first announced.  Over the past couple of weeks I've really put a lot of thought into them though, and for me, the benefits of the changes are obvious.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only people REALLY hurt by this are the botters, and despite their misinformation campaings, they really do exist.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[akaHE]

<DIV>I have read all of the comments here and even though admittedly, I was very upset at the prospect of attuning everything (and still am to a degree) having items 'wear out' will prolong a healthy economy, and is in fact necessary.   I dont like it one bit, but I dont like having to fix my car, or re-shingling my house either, and unless we do those things, mechanics, and roofers would be out of buisiness, starve, and not be able to in turn buy the goodies that I provide.    I am no economist, but I can see the market forces here -- so I'm willing to see how things go.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My biggest concern, however, is the loss of recoverable income.  I dont craft, and I don't want to.   Money is pretty hard as it is to get if you dont craft, and now its going to be worse.   If I can't get something back from my investment -- it will ruin me as I assume it will many others (just like RL except without the bill collectors calling)  Adventurers will have far less income and this is a BAD thing indeed.  In turn sellers will have less income too -- buisinesses go out of buisiness when that happens.   EQ2 may need to keep the supply of items limited, but they MUST keep the ammount of money high, so thing can actually be bought and sold.   This is where I see the problem.  If this has to be, and maybe it does --- there has to be with it a a way or ways of making money so we can afford to REPLACE our gear.   This profit making shout NOT be limited to crafting either...  You just cant have only those affording weapons too busy making them to use them.   Aside from this, its just bad form,and disrespectfull to our wishes, to assume we all want to craft.    </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I believe needs to happen, is either an sharp increase in the prices merchants pay for your used stuff, or the age-old standy of getting a few coins of the critters you kill that have pockets in which to keep thier money, or both.   It makes sense to me to reward killing with a little cash --  us adventuring types could then afford to continue to buy all the neat-o cool gear from the crafters and EVERYBODY would be happy, since we can ALL afford to put food on the table, doing what we WANT to do and have CHOSEN to do.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>These are my thoughts anyway -- what do you all think?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry for any mis-spellings.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Hero</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Tatali]

<blockquote><hr>SwiftLegend wrote:<DIV>I agree. What the [FAAR-NERFED!] are you [FAAR-NERFED!] heads thinking? Now you can buy stuff from the broker at outragous prices to only be able to sell them back for a lousy 12-80 silver even if you paid 3-4 gold and outgrew it? What the [FAAR-NERFED!] is that? </DIV><hr></blockquote>Simple: Players <B>ASKED</B> for this. Remember the old say, "Be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it?" Well, there you have it.Crafters complained that they couldn't sell their items because people would grow out of them resell it at a discount price. Adventures complained they couldn't sell all the gear they hauled home from dungeons becuase people who were higher than them were offloading their own stuff. Together, they screamed with one voice, "Oh please SOE, please make items attunable so that we can sell our items. This is what we really want becuase it will help the game!"A few players said, "What are you thinking? Attunable is not the answer. The right answer would be item decay. Let items wear out over time so they will eventually leave the game. All that gear you bought new can still be sold off as second hand to another player, but by the time they're done with it they might as well sell it to a merchant becuase its will be nearly worn out... but hey, got got it at a discount to start with so they can't complain."To this the overwheming cry was, "Oh no! Not thre dreaded 'decay' word! That's awful! We can not accept that our hard earned gear will eventually become useless! No! We need it all to be attunable, that is the answer! That will make us truly happy because items will leave the game and the market will remain fresh for those to come! Decay is horrible and will mean all we ever do is camp new stuff!"Well, congradulations! You got attunable on all items! More to the point, you got all the drawbacks to attunable gear as well. Now there IS no second hand market for hand-me-down gear. Nope, just vendor it off for a fraction of its value. That bracer you spend 35g on, yep nice 80sp in your pocket when you replace it. Be happy, SOE gave you exactly what you wished for! See, they really do try to please the players... and now we all suffer becuase of it.

[digitalblasphemy]

<blockquote><hr>Tataline wrote:<blockquote><hr>SwiftLegend wrote:<DIV>I agree. What the [FAAR-NERFED!] are you [FAAR-NERFED!] heads thinking? Now you can buy stuff from the broker at outragous prices to only be able to sell them back for a lousy 12-80 silver even if you paid 3-4 gold and outgrew it? What the [FAAR-NERFED!] is that? </DIV><hr></blockquote>Simple: Players <B>ASKED</B> for this. Remember the old say, "Be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it?" Well, there you have it.Crafters complained that they couldn't sell their items because people would grow out of them resell it at a discount price. Adventures complained they couldn't sell all the gear they hauled home from dungeons becuase people who were higher than them were offloading their own stuff. Together, they screamed with one voice, "Oh please SOE, please make items attunable so that we can sell our items. This is what we really want becuase it will help the game!"A few players said, "What are you thinking? Attunable is not the answer. The right answer would be item decay. Let items wear out over time so they will eventually leave the game. All that gear you bought new can still be sold off as second hand to another player, but by the time they're done with it they might as well sell it to a merchant becuase its will be nearly worn out... but hey, got got it at a discount to start with so they can't complain."To this the overwheming cry was, "Oh no! Not thre dreaded 'decay' word! That's awful! We can not accept that our hard earned gear will eventually become useless! No! We need it all to be attunable, that is the answer! That will make us truly happy because items will leave the game and the market will remain fresh for those to come! Decay is horrible and will mean all we ever do is camp new stuff!"Well, congradulations! You got attunable on all items! More to the point, you got all the drawbacks to attunable gear as well. Now there IS no second hand market for hand-me-down gear. Nope, just vendor it off for a fraction of its value. That bracer you spend 35g on, yep nice 80sp in your pocket when you replace it. Be happy, SOE gave you exactly what you wished for! See, they really do try to please the players... and now we all suffer becuase of it.<hr></blockquote>I didnt' wish for this. Others voicing their oppinion didn't wish for this. The only people on record en masse were the crafters who wanted this change. Please show me, the volume of people who were Adventurers asking previously for this patch to occur. Where are they? Come on I want to know? Cause all I see are people so [Removed for Content] off they quiting the game. And I'm seeing these posts in the hundreds. Once topic alone I posted on has been view over a 1000 times in the last few hours. All the content crafters are in game right now. All the [Removed for Content] off, irate Adventurers are in here, not playing and instead posting their frustrations and anger at how we have been ripped off and abused.

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> skrik wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And, for all you crafters out there, think about this.... Us adventurers are spending this amount of cash, buying items that YOU craft... Therefore, YOU are making a profit from them... What happens, when the adventurer runs outta cash, and cant make any of it back from selling to a lower level player, that can actually USE the item? Hint: YOU ALL GET SCREWED, and can't sell jack crap, after this patch flattens the economy. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>since i craft 90% for my own needs and just need to sell my by-products (the non-pristine final stuff or interims I dont need because i managed pristine on the first attempt)  I fail to see how this will affect me in a negative way.<BR>

[cowkiller]

<DIV>people have been screaming for months for sony to fix the game well they did the only way that they could now every one screaming  about how sony fix it  wel how would u fix it </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>take  armors/ jewely  ok after u use it u could sell it or give it a way and they could sell it in trader   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> crafters making armor / jewely   to sell to u  in trader  or give it a way </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>u win some armor/jewely  u use or sell on trader </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>u get some quest armor /jewely  us use it  the then trader it </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>5-7 months passes the markets full of junk armor jewely </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>were does that leave the armorest or jewelerest  who just started out   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>had sony not done this  those 2 classes would have been nerfed  in 5-7 months from flooded market </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>yes i like sonys patch  yes it stings  in some parts  but it sting more in 5-7 months to the classes that got nerfed </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>don't blam sony for doing this patch  im guessing 100% of armors and jewelers are happy from this patch  i do not craft  and im happy  for this patch </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>lvl 30 mystic </DIV>

[Stinkin]

<DIV>I've been waiting for something like this for a while.  Having all the heritage items and drops available to anybody who had the coin was a ridiculous situation for a game based on questing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is a great idea.  It makes the market place more of an area to get player crafted equipment, rather than an endless cycle of re-used castoff drops.  It would be nice to see the merchants being the main bread winners in a guild (no, I'm not a crafter at all), as it should be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is not a nerf, this is a fix, and a good one at that.</DIV>

[Lars]

<DIV>Im a crafter and i think this patch is absolute rubbish....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Whats wrong with a free market ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How will carpenters be compensated ? every other artisan class has their items beeing perished after use carpenters will have attunable beds ??</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nah SoE youve messed up a great game now its barely a ok game...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just looking on the feedback ive heard from guildies and other friends you on SoE managed to get your whole customerbase question their commitment to the game and/or started to look for optional games.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I personally play games i like for years and before patch i could see myself (to gf:s dispair) playing this for quite a while. Now i feel more like playing this and hope it gets better and if not ill move on (no not to WoW, thats horrible and still after this patch worse than EQ2).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Lig]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<BR> <DIV>Why should we be forced to buy from an artisan? If you're an artisan and your making no profit you should be out of business, charge less and then maybe people will buy from you. Penalizing us for artisans greed is crass.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>That's just a stupid statement. If you buy a shirt and wear it for a year and people beat on you with swords while you are wearing it... shouldn't it wear out? </P> <P>If nothing ever leaves the world the market gets completely flooded.</P> <P>Now I agree that the attunable fix is a band aid to the problem... in reality there should be decay of items not just attunability but till they get that into the game this will have to do so that items do not stick around forever.</P>

[tesarei]

<DIV>I Think this is a good thing as well</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>this is somthing that takes out of the marked the used items. this allows new crafters a chance to sell there goods and a profit so they can continue crafting.   I dont think this hurts the game at all. this change along with the change in dependancies should actualy make the cost of goods go down making it eiser for you to buy the next set of armor.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>yes you will prolly not get the same amount of money as you paid for the armor but you know what thats relistic.  do you get the same amount of money for any used items in real life as what you paid for it?  no (unless its a colecters item then you might get more).  I think most of you need to take a calming breath play it for a while and see how it works.  I find that this works well in other game systems and in the long term of the game is a move that needed to be made. I still wish they would make the common crafted items better then the common droped items and the rare crafted better then the rare droped. but i think soe is leary of doing that and removing the excitment of getting a droped item as then you will just se that item as cash..... dont know a good answer to that.</DIV>

[Flab]

<DIV>Hi </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I like the changes, but I feel like its a job half done. By this I mean that the logic behind having to attune armor to fit a character is sound, but I will not agree to the fact that it turns into scrap metal after the first user. Could they not perhaps add the option to UN-attune an item, but at the cost of permanently lowering the items max condition ? This would indicate that the item is second hand, and not as good as new any more, BUT still useable , and attunable to the next user..</DIV> <DIV>The effect would be that the market would still favor the NEW artisan stuff,as they would provide the full benefits and bonuses of a fitted piece of equipment...On the other hand, the market would also have second hand stuff, which new players can buy at cheaper prices, so they would not all be stuck with the same limited selection due to small market and rising prices ( as they will when demand overtakes supply for made items..)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>An alternative, or additon to - this, could be another element in consideraton to attuning - namely SIZE.</DIV> <DIV>ex: If u devide the races in the game into 3 sizes, Small ( dwarf,ratonga,gnome and Halfling) , Large (Barbarian, Troll and Ogre) and Medium (the rest) - and each time u attune an item, it attunes to you, AND your size. And to change the size of an item later would further affect the max conditon of the item... (as it would if u were to make a piece of armor larger of bigger, its integrity would suffer..).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So for example. A Ratonga has a New helmet attuned himself , a Small character, at 100% condition.</DIV> <DIV>He wants to give it to an ogre, so first he Un-attunes the item at (for example) a 10% permanent damage</DIV> <DIV>The item is now attunable to another SMALL character at 90%</DIV> <DIV>But, as the Ogre would be 2 levels larger, it would suffer another 20% of Max conditon (10% per lvl) if it was to be attuned to him (to simulate weakenig of integrity of original piece..)</DIV> <DIV>So in the end - the Ogre attunes the helmet , now at a max 70% conditon.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>...I dont know..it sounds logical to me, what u all think ?</DIV> <DIV>Imagine in the long run, they could add damage models to the gear, so the knight in new shiny armor would relly stand out from the guy in the [FAAR-NERFED!]ty second hand-twice refitted gear.... adds texture..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-----------------</DIV> <DIV>Aqition Derrinye</DIV> <DIV>Kassander Leonidii</DIV> <DIV>Larrie</DIV> <DIV> - all on Neriak server</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Flabby on <span class=date_text>02-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:21 AM</span>

[SheynaRainbring]

<DIV>I'm 100% behind the sentiment "I'm for a free-market economy." My God! This game just started. If I "just started" a country, it would take time for the economy to get off the ground and balance itself out. The economy in EQ1 after six years was even studied by a professor because of how well it was set up by the players. It's GNP was stronger than several real countries -- and amazingly, that was without all-attuneable items! Sony needs to get their paws out of our economy until it sorts itself out. Roll back this part of the patch please. </DIV>

[Jinsou]

While I wasn't initially happy with this change, I think it will do very good things for the economy. I understand and respect why this change was implemented.The problem that I have now is the gargantuan rift between the cost to make an item and the markup that people charge at the broker. I paid ~25g for my entire set of forged feyiron chain, and each piece sells to an NPC vendor for ~50s. That's unacceptable.

[Lars]

<DIV>To me it feels like this patch was made to accomodate a handful strongvoiced (moaning) crafters with nothing on their mind but personal greed. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>what EQ2 needs is a free economy in some fascist/communist bs economy where a handful of people make alot of money and [Removed for Content] the majority on their hard earned coins.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All 4 of my chars are over 20 but i can imagine how gret it might be for any new player to the gaem noticing that they can use their armours a day or two before they are turned into heaps of junk...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SoE made it assbackwards they didnt fix a broken system...they broke a working one, YAY!! way to go....muppets <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Joos]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<BR> <DIV>Why should we be forced to buy from an artisan? If you're an artisan and your making no profit you should be out of business, charge less and then maybe people will buy from you. Penalizing us for artisans greed is crass.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> If it makes you feel better, this patch did put artisans out off business :smileymad:

[Joos]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rikini wrote:<BR>Actually, decided a re-word.<BR><BR>The way I see things working, generally, now, at least in our guild, is this: We have say 12 full-time adventurers, 1 full-time crafsperson, and 5 people who do both equally. (for example) the way it is now, the adventurers are the money-makers. We go out adventuring. We get drops and components gathering. We come back, and sell, and give our craftsperson money and components. We're basically "footing the bill" for the artisans.<BR><BR>Now, with the cost increases and attune changes coming, I see a 180 degree change coming. The artisans are going to be the ones giving stuff to their guild-mates for free, selling to outsiders, and actually even giving money to the adventurers which they'll use to purchase the consumables they need (food water and arrows, poisons, etc.) so they can go out and hunt drops and gather. It's the artisans who will "foot the bill" as it were. <P>Message Edited by Rikini on <SPAN class=date_text>02-17-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:20 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> You must have a lot of provisioners in your guild :smileyvery-happy:

[Lancealittle]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lars-T wrote:<BR> <DIV>To me it feels like this patch was made to accomodate a handful strongvoiced (moaning) crafters with nothing on their mind but personal greed. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>what EQ2 needs is a free economy in some fascist/communist bs economy where a handful of people make alot of money and [Removed for Content] the majority on their hard earned coins.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All 4 of my chars are over 20 but i can imagine how gret it might be for any new player to the gaem noticing that they can use their armours a day or two before they are turned into heaps of junk...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SoE made it assbackwards they didnt fix a broken system...they broke a working one, YAY!! way to go....muppets <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>What if the end result is lowered prices on Player made gear? The sellback price you get is the same one the crafter gets for selling to an NPC. This will encourage crafters to sell it to a player for anything over that amount to make a profit to keep on crafting. </P> <P>The attune change came in the same patch that changed the NPC sellback price for crafters. They can't earn money without selling to players, so there is not motivation to sell for less to players. The crafters also can make their own items, so the only random factor for them will be what they pay for resources.  Give it a few weeks and see what the market looks like.</P> <P>Also everyone seems to leave out the fact that this attune change only affects things that you 'use'. If it's not worth the price, then don't use it.</P> <P> </P>

[Aegori]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lars-T wrote:<BR> <DIV>Im a crafter and i think this patch is absolute rubbish....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Whats wrong with a free market ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How will carpenters be compensated ? every other artisan class has their items beeing perished after use carpenters will have attunable beds ??</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nah SoE youve messed up a great game now its barely a ok game...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just looking on the feedback ive heard from guildies and other friends you on SoE managed to get your whole customerbase question their commitment to the game and/or started to look for optional games.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I personally play games i like for years and before patch i could see myself (to gf:s dispair) playing this for quite a while. Now i feel more like playing this and hope it gets better and if not ill move on (no not to WoW, thats horrible and still after this patch worse than EQ2).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>dude... first of all your stretching now. Carpenters will be needed well into the future by anyone who wants high status furniture. It lowers the upkeep cost of your house if you have it, therefore making it a highly sought after commodity. Secondly, please follow the dev tracker and stay informed on the issues. They are looking to implement a lot more into crafting including more recipes and more utility items for each crafting class. This will make crafters even more sought after if they have yet another commodity that players want to buy. The problem with most of your arguments in this thread are that they look, at most, 2 days into the future but aren't even accurate in that respect. Chill out and play with it awhile. The patch has been live for 1 day and when i look up, the sky is still there.</P> <P>-Aeg<BR></P> <p>Message Edited by Aegorian on <span class=date_text>02-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:26 AM</span>

[Aegori]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lars-T wrote:<BR> <DIV>To me it feels like this patch was made to accomodate a handful strongvoiced (moaning) crafters with nothing on their mind but personal greed. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>what EQ2 needs is a free economy in some fascist/communist bs economy where a handful of people make alot of money and [Removed for Content] the majority on their hard earned coins.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All 4 of my chars are over 20 but i can imagine how gret it might be for any new player to the gaem noticing that they can use their armours a day or two before they are turned into heaps of junk...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SoE made it assbackwards they didnt fix a broken system...they broke a working one, YAY!! way to go....muppets <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>How can you possilby say this when it gimped a few artisan classes in terms of profits? the removal of interdependency and increase of fuel costs negates much of a profit that artisans were once making. I'm sure you'll say "but they just jack up the prices to make up for it". Yea... possible... but then we don't buy because we can still buy dropped goods as well. All this does is take artisan classes such as armorers, tailors, weaponsmiths, etc. (anyone who was competing with dropped loot) and makes a market for their items in that dropped aren't as widely available anymore. This change balances the crafting community, just as future updates will balance it even more. Get over it and try it, or stop and become and adventurer or find greener fields. The whole uninformed ranting spree is old and tired.</P> <P>-Aeg</P><p>Message Edited by Aegorian on <span class=date_text>02-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:33 AM</span>

[Lord Eggnopol]

<DIV>The one thing that I dont see people putting down is that people dont realize that it takes time to make these. some items takes forever to get the finished product. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes you can make a lot at the same time but if your an artisan that actually goes out and harvests his own items that time needs to be accoutable. I see lots of people saying "Well in the real world" yes in the real world you are getting charged for the time it cost to make the item also. You cant sit there and tell me that it dont because if we were not getting charged for the man hours it cost to make said clothing, cars, houses, food everything in the real world would be cheap.  Thats why there is a mark up on some items.  If it is going to take me hours to get enough supplies up to make a few items then yes I am going to mark up the price. Mind you im not out there putting an ungodly price on something.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All this patch did is make it more expensive for the artisan who didnt powerlevel thier trade to level 50 and punished those who are still and were still trying to work there way up.   This patch just didnt fix anything.  When you purchase something in the real world and your done with it you dont sell it for ten percent of what you paid for it.  You go buy a shirt at the department store for say $5 ad wear it for a while donate it to the local thrift store and if its in realitive good condition they will put a $2 price tag on it. that at least 40% of its value. If you buy a car for $20,000 and use it for a year your still gonna try and get $10,000 hell thats 50%. RIGHT now you buy a Feyiron BP for 3g and try and sell to a NPC vendor all you get it 28s that is only a littel less then 10% of the "value" of the tunic?  thats just plain wrong with the "fixed" market this way i will be out of money to buy new stuff quickly and then will have to mark up my prices more to make up the fact that i cant get any resale value out of what i have now.<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[cowkiller]

<DIV>in eq1  a elemental mastery crown  +5 hp  was selling for 120kp  if you think  thats was right  then i know some swamp land in qeynos  that be perfict  for u </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the game name changes  the greed doesn't </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>staff of the frozen orb </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1 handed </DIV> <DIV>23-122</DIV> <DIV>1.5 delay </DIV> <DIV>+11 int   +11 wis    +7 str  +9 agi</DIV> <DIV>+200 sv heat  +234 sv desease +500 sv magic +142 sv ice</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>10% Chance to cast vox breath  29-43</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>staff </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>primary</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mage class only</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ok say that staff  resipe was  for weaponsmith  trive lvl  31</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>items to make </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>resin </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2 feyiron </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1 wild apple </FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>tier 3 fuel </FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>the cost to make if u harvested all the items your self  nothing  the demand on market was there  so u sell it for say 10g  but the sell to npc is 10c </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the person who bought it  and used it  for all the time  he used it for   would be happy  he had it  then he tryed to sell it to a npc just to find out its worth  ten copper  he feel jiped   why   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>how meany of u  right now buy items you never sell back  ok every one here eats RL food  do u sell the left overs back to the store  do u feel jiped  about that they will not take your pizza crumbs  the empty boxes   u buy a 6 pack of beer  for 18$$ but the store will only give u 30cents after u return  the items after u use it </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>u do have the option  to ask players  in game to make u items  u can ask them how much does it cost to make that item  if u think its high check out </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eq2.eqtraders.com/articles/news_page.php" target=_blank>http://eq2.eqtraders.com/articles/news_page.php</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>u can find out what in the items u buying  and what the going price to make it is  mabe find the items your self and work a deal with the person who will make one for u </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>cry if u want to  i like this patch </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>lvl 30 mystic </DIV> <DIV>non crafter</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[batter_then]

<DIV>why not just make it so the merchents buy things at a higher price so that is kinda liek the quick sell. it would make sence and get rid of alot of the spare junk that you would normally see on the broker</DIV>

[Ay]

<DIV>Bumping.. because it needs to remain on top.</DIV> <DIV>my jewelery is selling back to npc for 9sp, when i paid 1.5 gp</DIV> <DIV>my armor is just as horrid...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Lipp]

<DIV>I agree this is 110% BS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lovely way to force already poor low-mid level people who DONT WANT TO CRAFT further in the poor house.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SOE - where Winning by Whining isnt just policy, its a Way of Life.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sallow</DIV>

[cowkiller]

<DIV>hate to burst your bobble  i do not craft and i own a 3.7p horse theres other was to make money in game then to craft items </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ps the horse yes was nerfed but  i do not use it for speed i use it for hight dwarfs are to small and a 24 hr sow  is nice mabe sony will make sow last  12 hrs instead of 15 mins  eq1 sow was 27 mins </DIV>

[firezep]

<DIV>I totally agree that having to attune everything is just stupid.  I almost quit the day i saw it in the message, now I just wait to see if it gets reversed.  I'm not by any means a money maker.  I usually pass my things down to guild mates if they can use, if they can't use then I try to sell to players, if it sits there for ever then I sell to merchants if they offer an ok price.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Make an option to take attuned off after you are done or get rid of it.. please.  Me and my guild along with many others I'm sure have started looking at other games as this one is started to get to the point where it isn't fun to play any more do to all these big changes that don't seem worth it and just [Removed for Content] us off.  I don't mind the tradeskill changes,  I hated having to find a tailor all the time, but I haven't acctally tried it, but the attune thing is just stupid.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If the only point to attuning items was to controll the market and the amount of money being brought into the game, then really what's the point?  Players will always find some way to make money then you guys over looked.  Why try to control the market so much, it will eventually even itself out.  </DIV>

[Rock]

<DIV>Too bad people are attempting to make this a Crafter vs. Adventurer issue. Yes this helps Crafters but also Adventurers in the long run. As time goes on without decay or attuning even items that are considered uber will have very little value. As an Adventurer if you aquire a really nice weapon off a named wouldn't you rather be one of 10 people on the server who had so you could equip or sell for multi plat. Or would you rather find that everyone and his uncle had it handed down and be worth a few gold? Without these changes nothing will ever be rare or unique.</DIV>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> firezepyr wrote:<BR> <DIV>I totally agree that having to attune everything is just stupid.  <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>I <FONT color=#ff0000>PRAY </FONT>they will introduce no-drop to EQ2 on a<FONT color=#ff0000> large scale </FONT>- just for you!:smileyvery-happy:<BR> <p>Message Edited by Tradeskill_Addict on <span class=date_text>02-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:34 AM</span>

[Alfred75]

Please post if you have at least half a brain and understand how economics works. Don't post because you think the patch is a great injustice to you. Whether you begin the game as an artisan or adventurer is purely your own decision.Let me try to tackle the issue of crafted items vs mob dropped items/adventurers vs artisansIn the simplest possible explanation, artisans and adventurers will make money by selling off their items, so its definitely not a artisan vs adventurer issue. Adveturers pick up armor pieces when hunting and sell the, while artisans make the armor pieces and sell them. The order of "quality" goes something like this.Highest Quality to Lowest:1. Master chest loot items2. Pieces from extremely hard and long quests3. Armor crafted from rare resources4. Armor drops from mobs and Armor crafted from normal resources5. Simple quest armor6. Merchant itemsBarring the rare stuff (1 to 3), artisans and adventurers have things quite equal. You get loot to sell to other players. Loot from either side of the coin will balance the prices of equipment i.e. no way artisan will sell below cost, and no way adventurer can oversell comparable armor over that of crafted items; vice versa. Granted an artisan can continually produce items for sale, they would have expended some significant amount on bringing up their skills, and also they run the risk of sunk costs in their items as well as the possibility of their items not selling. In a sentence, attuning allows adventurers to continue making money via adventuring, and artisans to continue making money via skills. Otherwise, there will 1001 of the same item in the game, in no time. If these items can be easily bought off the broker, there will be no motivation for adventurers to adventure and get drops off mobs, neither will there be motivation for artisans to make armor to sell. You need goods to move for new goods to come in. You need to have limited supply for an item to have value. This brings me to the cons of the recent patch:1. Allowing each tradeskill class to produce their basic components completely disrupts the inter-dependability of crafters. I love the initial system where I would need to buy chemicals from any friendly alchemist. Now, each class is quite alienated from each other because they are pretty much independent. No doubt I can make my own chemicals ( I am a T4 woodworker), but I don't really appreciate this change becuase it does not make sense economically - unless theres substantial additional costs involved to make these chemicals compared to that of the alchemist which there isn't any right now. Anyway, Alchemists are pretty much out of jobs right now until the prices of merchant sold poisons go up etc.2. Attuning items is a great idea, but its implementation sucks big time. Armor and jewellery can be attuned, but what happens to furniture? Furniture has an infinite lifespan and can be re-sold infinite times. Carpenters are put out of jobs - soon there will be infinite number of furniture and carpenters are basically useless classes.3. Personal dislike, though its good for the economy, is the tiered-fuel thingie. I am poor, and everytime I do my tradeskills, it takes a big chunk of my money away, leaving me quite poor to buy spells and stuff when they are available. You can ignore this point, just some dumb ranting from me haha