Make Armor Re-attunable (Just a suggestion)

[jlscos]

How about making equipment re-attunable by:a) Paying money to an npc or an appropriate outfitter, by doing so, they can charge for the service but, for an outfitter, not use any material so it would cost a bit cheaper than making a new set but still give an armorer some income. Also, it when crafting, crude= 60% of the original stats, shaped = 75%, normal = 90% and pristine = 100%b) Make equipment re-attunable for free, but every time it's re-attuned, it would lose 20% of its stats (without lowering the requirements), so those people who really lack money can get a second hand item with 80% of the stats or even lower, depending on how much it's been passed around. So when they do have enough money, they'll buy a brand new one and probably sell the old one...What do you guys think?

[Lars]

<DIV>I think its a good idea if we are to have attuneable armour and weapons at all. Im against having attuneable gear at all because i think it makes the whole idea of buying and selling items worthless in my eyes and more or less forces people to go artisan. If you make armour and other gear attuneable to accomodate the artisans that are moaning that alchemists and provisioners products are spent and lost after they are bought while their stuff is sold over and over again. Im very much against attuneable gear since this will deinately destroy a huge part of the realism of the game, i mean its insanely silly to think that a ring and so on will not be able to be resold or refitted for someone else but instead its gonna be destroyed after use too make some artisans happy (jeweler myself and like the system as it is). I say NO to attuneable gear because it makes the game worse and not better which should be the goal of any changes to it. How are you going to compensate the carpenters if this goes live ??? attunable beds that would be the silliest thing ive ever heard if that happens.... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Ive had this bed and its all mine and no one else can ever have it!!!"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While im on about bed my last words in this post is: Put this idea of attuneable gear to bed or bury it deep because its the worst idea ive seen for EQ2 so far. What ever happened to the idea of a free market?? This will only mess the game up so please dont let this go live but if you do, do it as suggested in the author of the threads post.</DIV>

[Blackdog183]

<DIV>The intent of making armor etc. attunable is to prevent adventurers from reselling the armor back on the economy at a fraction of the cost.  Your suggestions circumvent that intent.  Nice post tho, very well worded.</DIV>

[Grumpy_Warrior_01]

<DIV>The problem I see with re-attuned item degradation is that now you're going to have to examine each and every one of the 40 or so pristine forged carbonite vanguard cuirasses on the broker to see which ones still have all their stats, talk about a nightmare for both buyer and seller.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And to the other player posting against attuning, those 40 or so chestplates (using them as an example) on the broker are the very reason why attuning is so necessary.  The artisans pump out dozens of the items, which makes them price very competitively to get rid of them.  Right now I'm seeing a couple dozen of those carbonite chestpieces on the broker, being sold by the artisan who made them, for 75sp each.  75sp!!  Now just below that, I'm seeing several more of the same chestplates being sold, one by one, on other players for 70sp, 50sp, 45sp... which were <STRONG>also </STRONG>originally made by that same artisan!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The players are buying the items from the maker, using them for a few levels, then once they are done with the item they put it back on the broker for pennies, dramatically undercutting the artisan who made the item to begin with!  If the artisan ever wants to sell another chestplate, he's going to have to mark down his stock (at a heavy loss) to match or beat the prices of the non-artisans who are just trying to get a few silvers out of an unwanted item, or hope the other traders get booted offline during the night.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Lars]

<DIV>I dont think its that they are re-selling it at a fraction of the cost that seems to offend the armourers etc but its the fact that they are reselling them at all. I think the discussion that it will lead to a point where the market is full and no one will buy from the original makers is kind of twisted to suit the artisans. Why shouldnt the armour be re-sellable ? The market will not be "full" anytime soon and the ones selling the armour they have outgrown are not likely to sell it at a fraction of the price, why would they ? I get the feeling this whole idea about attuneable gear is mostly about greed and has very little to do about actual gameplay.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can tell you what this will lead to though and my guild has already started it for our own good if this comes live. We are sorting it so we got cover for any class in the guild so we wont be forced to buy anything from other artisans when we need gear. Simply because its attuneable it becomes useless in about 5 levels but i doubt anyone making the stuff will even consider lowering the price for what they make with much. So we are either looking to be selfsufficient because i refuse to pay 5-15g for armour that gets little or no value for me after ive outgrown it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dont fix it unless its broken....and its not, EQ2 needs less attuneable stuff not more!</DIV><p>Message Edited by Lars-T on <span class=date_text>02-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:56 PM</span>

[Lars]

<DIV>You state that the artisan is forced to undercut their price at a heavy loss....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Making a Carbonite chestplate cost what ? If the artisan buys everything he/she cant make themselves i think you end up with a price making it on about what ? 10s ? 20s ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Selling it at 75s is a choise he makes himself, letting others re-sell makes for a healthy market where overpricing can be sorted. Overpricing is the biggest problem with the whole artisan community id say.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3 out of my 4 characters are artisans (4th will be in due time) and i think this is a bad idea attuning all items and again i ask you:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How will carpenters be compensated if this goes live?? Attuneable beds and chandeliers??</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No kill this idea before it ruins a excellent game where a free market rules the economy!</DIV>

[jlscos]

For b) with the 20% degradation rate, we can can add new, secondhand etc. to the item's name, something like:Forged iron chainmail cuirass (New)100% statsForged iron chainmail cuirass (Secondhand) 80%Forged iron chainmail cuirass (Used) 60%Forged iron chainmail cuirass (Worn out)40%Forged iron chainmail cuirass (Tattered) 20%or if you want something more straight forward: New, secondhand, thirdhand (don't know if that's a real word though lol), etc.I admit the Item names can get a bit long, but we can do away with "forged" and "tailored" as they seem useless...With this system, you''l probably see people exchange armor to only about 80% and rarely 60% and the most cash strapped adventurers will wear the 40%. So you'll see armor only change hands once or twice before they're "retired" and replaced with new armor

[Grumpy_Warrior_01]

<DIV>Actually the item degradation idea in the original post would be the better solution, if it were not for the fact that this is a game.  Item degradation and value based on how much you've used it and maintained it would be the perfect approach.  You can liken it to the new/used car market.  There's jillions of them out there, but when you go out searching for a car you look at how many miles it's been, what kind of shape the body and interior are in, maintenance records, etc.  The unique history of the item determines its worth, along with how prestigious that particular model is, how powerful it is, etc.  Obviously a new item is going to be considerably more desirable on a lot of those traits, as long as you can afford the difference in price.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But that system is just too complicated for a game, where you have 17 items of equipment that you keep for maybe a week or two each, not just a single big item that you keep for four years.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[aeio]

Items will be re-attunable. Just go to the broker and buy an EXACT duplicate of the same item, and voila, it is attunable all over again.

[VengeanceRo]

<DIV>I do not see why they do not put in a "salvage" option like in DAOC.  That way the purchaser of the armor say made by Mister A could then, once the armor is outleveled, find Mister A and say "Hey Mister A!  I have the armor you sold me a few levels back and was interested in getting it salvaged."  Mister A could then salvage the armor, get the parts back (or perhaps a tool would be needed to salvage that got used, and depending on the Item used would depend on the salvage).  Mister A pays player x amount on the armor based on what he can salvage from it, and both go on about thier buisiness.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a consumer I am distressed over the fact that the armor/weapon I bought for a good portion of my gold, will essentialy be useless once i outlevel it.   You know NPC merchants are not going to pay crap for it.  I know something has to be done because an armorer will eventually have no buisiness left, but again they could do as they do in DAOC where each item has durability.  As its repaired/gets used the durability goes down.  Once that durability reaches 0 its no longer useable.  That stops the retrading over and over again forever.  At most a piece of armor would last a few trades and be done. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The problem is its alot easier for them to just make all things attunable since that system is in place than take the time and expense to recode a better, more fair for all approach.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After seeing the prices on my server for feysteel stuff, and knowing i'd never be able to resell it,  I can safely say once im in my 30's I probably will not be buying crafted stuff anyway as its so far out of a pure adventurers pricerange as to be ludicris.  I will be forced to quest for my items, and though they may not be as good as the best crafted stuff, at least i will not be destitute afterwords.</DIV>

[pixychelle]

<DIV>Well, I don't have an armorer, so I can't tell you exactly how much it costs them to make a carbonite breastplate.  I do have a sage, however, and I know that one of the items they use to make that breastplate is a canvas pattern that I make.  In order to make that pattern, I need thread from a tailor and paper from a woodworker.  On my server, thread averages at 20 to 25 silver a pop on the broker.  Paper is 6-8 silver.  So, if I made and sold patterns at a break even cost, I'd have to charge between 26 and 33 silver.  The armorer will also have to buy tempers for the parts they can make themselves (approx 2s per temper), plus I think they have to buy another couple of subcomponents from other classes.  So no, 10-20s is hardly a good estimate.  That 75s is probably a slim profit margin for many armorers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Miral]

<DIV>I'm all for it... kinda lame to go to the market adn see  20 people selling 20 forged breastplates with the same stats... we need some variety in our crafted gear! Personally I wil the crafting was mor elike eqoa tradeskills where you have a basic reciple like armor fitting + metal plates + harvested item = forged brestplate... where armor fitting and metal plates would be filled with items of various materials, and harvested items would be filled with any of a variety of harvested jewels and such that each add their own stats... But no, in eq2 you have cookie cutter recipes that cannot be modified. AT ALL. sure you can choose to use roots instead of wood or metal isntead of roots in certain recipes, but it doesnt change the end-item in any way.</DIV>

[Lars]

<DIV>I do have an armourer and i can tell you it does cost about 10-20 silver to make a carbonite plate....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Again i say we need a free market if the artisans cant adjust their prices they wont have customers simple as that. Do we reallly want a market where a few people can set prices how high they feel like without facing any competition ? I say no let it be a free market where you dont have to be an artisan to make a few coins. I personally have a Woodworker, Jeweler and an Armourer so i would probably benefit from having all items attuneable but it ruins the whole point of a broker and a free market!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And again how would carpenters be compensated ?!?!?!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If other artisans are allowed to have monopoly on selling gear you must compensate carpenters but that makes the whole thing silly and strange.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dont give in to some peoples greed let the market be free and dont force people to artisan if they dont want too...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Grumpy_Warrior_01]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Miral wrote:<BR> <DIV>I'm all for it... kinda lame to go to the market adn see  20 people selling 20 forged breastplates with the same stats... we need some variety in our crafted gear! Personally I wil the crafting was mor elike eqoa tradeskills where you have a basic reciple like armor fitting + metal plates + harvested item = forged brestplate... where armor fitting and metal plates would be filled with items of various materials, and harvested items would be filled with any of a variety of harvested jewels and such that each add their own stats... But no, in eq2 you have cookie cutter recipes that cannot be modified. AT ALL. sure you can choose to use roots instead of wood or metal isntead of roots in certain recipes, but it doesnt change the end-item in any way.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>I think the quality levels (pristine, normal, shaped, crude) are intended to give the variety that you're referring to, but unfortunately (or fortunately) nobody wants anything but pristine, and pristine is way too easy and way too cheap to make.  I wish this were not the case, for the sake of the artisans.  We should all be running around with shaped and normal quality gear, and pristine quality should be rare, difficult and expensive, but it's not.  And you really can't blame the players for wanting to make, wear and sell the best quality available.  (I realize the AC values on shields don't follow this pattern exactly, but everybody still seems to want pristine quality on those too.)</P> <P>Just for the sake of sanity, I think any copy of an item in this system should have the same stats as any other copy with the same name.</P> <P>PS I like your idea of the gem sockets for added stats.  It took us about 5 years to get socketed gear and stat gems in EQ1, and it really injected new life into that aging system, something this newer EQ2 system doesn't need yet.</P> <P> </P>

[Ebeta]

<DIV>Not that this would ever happen, but what about only letting the person who crafted the armor sell it on the broker.  People woudl still be able to trade the stuff to others, but could not list it on the broker as the broker would only be available to those in the Armor's "union" etc.  You could sell other dropped stuff on broker just not crafted stuff unless you made it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just my opinion on what would be a compromise.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>