Let the EverCamp begin. Attune = camp hell.

[digitalblasphemy]

I believe people are complaing in droves having to spend hours camping mobs. I myself spent a caffeine induced 20hrs straight of camping the billies. But this new change from SOE is the death of any civility in this game. Now not only do you have to be in the right group to kill the right mob to get that lucky chance the mob will actually drop the item you are after and after rolling your lucky dice and winning the item woot woot!! lots of gratz from your groups members and you now have a nice new weapon, armor, jewelery item. That's what happens in a perfect world. We are not in that world. We are in a spiraling doomsday existence where SOE on a frequent basis are making some very drastic changes to this game. The next genius idea to come from the think tank at SOE is to make all weapons and armor attuneable. In a perfect world this wouldn't be a problem as we would all kill out mobs and each get the gear we desire. Or we would buy it from the brokers from a person who has no desire to fleece (ie. Beriks, High Quality Pelts, Ebon etc.) their fellow players. Again in a perfect world this wouldn't be a problem. We would pay market price and receive the item we desire. But this is far from being a perfect world.Who exactly is happy with this change apart from the armor/jewelers? Anyone? You in the back?... no!? Didn't think so.There is only one direction this will go and that's EverCamp. If people were complaing about camping mobs and spawns rates of those mobs, then what do you think will happen when groups and even guilds are lining up to kill a mob for a piece of armor? You'll get situations of people pulling 8hr shifts while their group mates sleep so they can secure the mob with the drop. Then god forbid if one of these items did appear on the brokers you're life savings would not cover the cost to purchase it.Currently the system is that nice armor,gear,weapons are sold for current market price on the brokers. The nicer stuff costs more. But this stuff is not the stuff flooding the marketplace and putting the tradeskillers out of business. It's the mediocre kill 10 mobs for a choice of armor,weapon,gear quests that are flooding the marketplace. Since there is soo much of it and no demand for it, people can hardly give it away. As far as the good gear goes, people keep that to use themselves.I do not know the answer to this problem of tradeskillers not being able to sell their stuff as there is too much looted gear on the brokers. But making everything attune is not the solution. You will have situations like in EQ1 where people will camp for days a mob for it's drop. As it is, you can try to get the item you are after as a drop or get it from the brokers or purchase it from friends when they upgrade. I know there are others out there who do not wish for this change to occur. If you are one of them please voice your concerns as well. This is afterall a "Feedback" forum. Despite what others post or flame in their reponses, our thoughts are valid as well. We pay for this game. We have helped evolve this game. We have every right to voice our disapproval at such changes.

[Kit_Oturea]

<DIV>I believe they mean all crafted weapons and armor become attunable, not ALL weapons and armor in the game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Ash]

I'm having trouble following the logic at all here.Which mobs are you talking about that are suddenly going to be camped all the time with this change. Have you experienced this on test already or is it just a prediction? Can you think of any specific armour or weapon drops this will have a negative effect on?

[Fireci]

<DIV>CRAFTED weapons and Armor will be attunable, not Quest or Mob-Dropped armor.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think this is an excellent change and will help create a consumable market for armor and weapon crafters.  Otherwise, 2 years down the road, no one would ever take up these professions since the market will be glutted with used armor and weapons from toons past.  And letting us sell Attuned weapon is a nice bonus too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well done SoE!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fireci - Najena</DIV><p>Message Edited by Fireci on <span class=date_text>02-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:21 AM</span>

[Thesp]

<DIV>Isn't the change only affecting <STRONG>crafted </STRONG>items? I think its a good move because you already see alot of the same lvl 20-30 crafted armor and weapons on the broker selling for rediculously low cost. An example: I purchased a set of crafted feyiron chainmail at level 29 so that I could wear it at 30, 2 weeks later I got to 35 and had quested/looted upgrades to most of those slots I had just purchased. When I went to sell them the feyiron pieces on the broker, I had to sell them for about 30% of the price I bought them for because there were already 10 copies of each piece selling for lower than that. A 70% drop in price in 2 weeks is not good for the economy. At that rate, items will be selling for less than the cost of production in a month or two. Armorers who make these for xp will have no option other than to sell it to the vendor because the market for the items is completely saturated, yet the market for food and drink thrives because items are constantly consumed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I believe you are mistaken in the assumption that they are changing every single item in the game to attuneable. Please reread MG's post and you'll see that it specifies crafted items only.</DIV>

[Dashofpepp]

<DIV>Is there an actual SoE statement somewhere...patch notes for Test or something that says they are going to do this?  I can't find it.  Link the thread or whatever you have from the Devs saying this is going to happen.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'll hold out on my two cents until an official word. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Retribution - Befallen</DIV>

[digitalblasphemy]

<blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<DIV>Some additional changes coming to Test:</DIV><UL><LI>Provisioners will use a new kind of fuel that costs significantly less (like around a tenth) of fuels for other professions. Other types of frequent consumables (such as arrows) will follow a similar formula.</LI><LI>Artisans of all types will be able to sell their goods back to a vendor at their cost.</LI><LI>Almost all armor and weapons will become attunable.</LI></UL><P>One of the imbalances in the tradeskill system is that there are some goods that always leave the economy (food, ammo, potions, scrolls) and others that don't (armor, weapons, shields). After a certain amount of time, there would be no need for armorers to make low-level breastplates, yet there would always be a market for food. Making armor and weapons attunable essentially turns them into consumables.</P><P>Attuned items will be sellable to merchants, so adventurers who use the weapons and armor will be able to recoup some of their costs. Adventurers will still have plenty of opportunities to make money.</P><P>The new fuel for frequent consumables will help keep costs more in line for those who need to buy food. Again, we want tradeskill food to be the standard that people buy rather than summoned or store-bought nourishment.</P><P>Artisans will be able to break even by selling to vendors. Artisans can make a profit by doing society tasks, guild-based tasks (in the form of status), and by selling to players. Selling to vendors will not be a way for artisans to earn cash.</P><P>We realize this is a big change, especially considering the level of profit some players have been making by selling to vendors. Unfortunately this has set an inflated value on items like food. Why would a provisioner be motivated to sell a piece of high-level food for less than a gold if a vendor would pay that much, even if it only cost a handful of copper to make it?</P><P>When all the provisioner changes are combined with the new sell-back prices, it should make food much more affordable. The inflated levels of profit should go away, but we want that to happen for the overall good of the game.</P><hr></blockquote>Ok this is MG's original post. When I first read it it seemed like he was referring to crafted items only as far as weapons and armor goes. I have purchased many sets of crafted armor and rings,bracelets and whatnots in my adventuring. If they were now attuneable, I think that's actually a good idea. It means the crafters are able to continue making their items, and like food are consumed to a certain degree. But looted/quested items are an entirely different game. Crafted items if you are the correct lvl take a certain amout of time to produce and that's it. You've made it. Looted/quested gear can take days, weeks or hours to get.Am I jumping the gun here or can someone say for certain this applies to crafted items only? Will quest and looted armor remain the way it is? Do you guys know this for sure or was that your interpretation? Because in other threads people were saying just about all items would be attune.EDIT: All the 1 star ratings in the world will not deter me from voicing my feedback to a game I have loved playing so far.<p>Message Edited by digitalblasphemy on <span class=date_text>02-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:40 AM</span>

[stfields]

<DIV>Consider the following:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Every day mobs drop gear that is better than player crafted.  Every day the supply of these items increases until there are near enough for every player.  Players that grow out of these items because they level and better is available will put these items back up on the market to sell.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Eventually there will be no market for Outfitters/Jewelers/Woodworkers - whether crafted items are attuneable or not.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Absorb that.  Then accept that when MG says "Almost all armor and weapons will become attunable" in all probability, he means exactly what he says.  He did not say "Upcoming Tradeskill Changes on Test" nor did he say "Almost all player crafted armor and weapons will become attunable."  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Making items attuneable will only have an impact if it covers the greater majority of items available.  I don't think adventurers will be very upset either.  It really is a win-win for everyone.  Yes, it does mean that the armor you get from mob drops if you equip them or from artisans can only be sold to vendor.  However, it also means that when you are grinding out some exp and you luck out and get a nice mob drop item, it is valued much higher than it currently is.  Why?  Because the supply on all mob dropped items will dwindle.  Mob dropped items will still be better than most player crafted.  Therefore, those items will have greater value and will be more "rare" on the market.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It also means that artisans will have a way to make coin to buy that nice stuff you adventurers got from exp-ing.  If artisans can't turn a profit to put that money back into the market by buying stuff for their own adventurers, then nothing has any value at all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's a good change if it makes it live <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Thesp]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dashofpepper wrote:<BR> <DIV>Is there an actual SoE statement somewhere...patch notes for Test or something that says they are going to do this?  I can't find it.  Link the thread or whatever you have from the Devs saying this is going to happen.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'll hold out on my two cents until an official word. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Retribution - Befallen</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Dev tracker is your friend. Pls to set your homepage to it immediately.

[digitalblasphemy]

Just as I had originally thought. There are two possible things happening here either:1) ALL gear/weapons in game become attuneable.2) Player crafted gear/weapons become attuneable and thus consumeables with an option to sell back to a special npc vendor.Now is it option 1 or 2? Some people say for sure option 1 and others say for sure option 2.

[skinandbones]

<DIV>Inturn does this still help the armor/weapon crafters?  No! Why is that?  Simple many them now dont make the lower tier armor/weapons they are currently on.  I made 2 alt's and couldnt hardly find any crafter stated armor on the broker.  I sent a tell to known crafter and was clearly told "I am not makin low level armor thats below the tier im on now" .  Now I even stated I would gather the resources to make and still pay.  I was refused and told to find a low level armor crafter.  My repsponse from all of them were the same.    </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now I cant see why a crafter would refuse a sale for low level armor.  I know because it doesnt give xp or enough XP.   So before all you crafters rejoice on this new I call a nerf you all better be open to making lowlevel armor/weapons even if no XP is gained.  This is the nerf you wanted so people can turn to you for armor/weapons.  </DIV>

[Lancealittle]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> digitalblasphemy wrote:<BR><BR>EDIT: All the 1 star ratings in the world will not deter me from voicing my feedback to a game I have loved playing so far.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>It's not your opinion that gives you a one star. It's how you express it. You seem to think that no one would see this as a good change. Also note that several replies already show that you don't speak for everyone in your post.</P> <P>Try using things like "I feel.." or "In my opinion...".  </P> <P>As far as the subject. I think that this would be a positive step. You can't use an item for 10 levels and then sell it to another player for the same amount you purchased it for. Items need to leave the game if crafting is going to be viable. The other option is introducing decay to items, but I'd preffer to have an item for as long as it's usefull for me. This will become more important to those who are nearing level 50 and have items they will want to use till next expansion. </P> <P>By the way, people will still one star you simply because they don't agree with your opinion, but those one star people usually don't even post a reply to say why.<BR></P>

[Ceruline]

As long as the drops are not notrade in addition there will still be some secondary market in these items. Yes they will be scarcer, and hence more valuable. As there's currently no mechanism for removing drops from in game use, without a change like this eventually craft item prices will deflate to the point where in order to sell at a more attractive price than a drop being resold for the nth time the item will have to be priced at a loss.The decision is predicated on crafted items being perfectly serviceable substitutes for drops. The expectation will be that crafted equipment will be a relatively easily obtainable baseline, and that they will be good enough so that a character doesn't feel that he or she needs to obtain x specific item to be effective. As long as the discrepency isn't too big, I wouldn't think that it would increase camping. The crafted items may need a bump in effectiveness to make this so, though.Of course, if it only applies to crafted items, it's still a good change, but I foresee future trouble due to drop based item value deflation.

[chto]

<DIV>That's odd behavior for a crafter. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would - and have - made armor below my tier on request; I think it's part of doing business.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I wouldn't want to grind out a hundred pieces of it, mind you - but if I have a buyer I'll cheerfully make a set or two to order, in hopes that I might see them again when they need the next set of armor.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Kwoung]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> skinandbones wrote:<BR> <DIV>Now I cant see why a crafter would refuse a sale for low level armor.  I know because it doesnt give xp or enough XP.   So before all you crafters rejoice on this new I call a nerf you all better be open to making lowlevel armor/weapons even if no XP is gained.  This is the nerf you wanted so people can turn to you for armor/weapons.  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I can tell you why I rarely do.... Bank Space. Stocking the components for multiple tiers of items can get very space intensive, so I would think many crafters are much like myself.. and only stock the level that they are currently working on. On the flip side, if someone wants to bring me the components required to make their lower level item instead of me having to go search/create them, I am more than happy to do the combine for them.</DIV>

[Yeev]

<DIV>Thats what I'm thinking, <STRONG><U>BANK SPACE!</U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U></U></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>How can they expect someone to be able to have all the materials ready at the drop of a hat to make all the various levels of items? I think stacks of harvested material should be increased a long way beyond 20. Unless that causes database problems. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U></U></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U></U></STRONG> </DIV>

[aeio]

attune doesn't mean that. People can still sell items before they are used. It just means ALL items will be much less common than now.Actually the more I think about it, the more this will benefit the game in the long-term.So now you might see 5 of item x on the market. 2 of them were from people who looted them and can't use them and are selling them, and 3 of them are from people who used them and upgraded. Now you will just have the two of them. But it doesn't make the item disappear from the marketplace.

[aeio]

<blockquote><hr>Kit_Oturea wrote:<DIV>I believe they mean all crafted weapons and armor become attunable, not ALL weapons and armor in the game.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><hr></blockquote>Actually moorgard said almost all weapons and armor would become attunable. When I first read it, I thought it was only crafted as well, but that doesn't really make sense. So I am assuming at this point he means almost all weapons and armor.

[Kwoung]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> aeiouy wrote:<BR>Actually the more I think about it, the more this will benefit the game in the long-term.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I agree as well. Although I do not think it will actually "fix" many of the problems. This change will put armour / weapon crafters on the same footing basically as sages... who have always just sold "attunable" items.. but at the same time had to compete with superior mob drops and each other for business.</DIV>

[Oghi]

<DIV>I think this is a good change.  Keep in mind that attuneable does not mean "no-drop," unless you attune it.  You'll still be able to sell drops you win or most gear you quest, but you will not be able to use it first.  There will be no more hand-me-downs.  If they do not make this change, how will a smith who starts the game next month survive?  There will be a glut of perfectly good, permanently reseallble gear on the market already.</DIV>

[Bruge]

<DIV>IMO i think dropped armor/weapons should be NO DROP, and crafted items should be attuneable. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Of course the campers that make profit selling the dropped gear are going to complain. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But anyone that isnt being inspired by greed will see the benefits in doing this. As long as dropped gear outshines crafted gear, they should make it so if you want it, you have to actually go and get it. Not just camp the broker.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Crafted items being attuneable as stated previously will still allow them to be handed around and sold until someone uses it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One of the big reasons crafted items are so hard to move isnt completely due to the fact that dropped gear is better, its because dropped gear can be sold, traded, handed down indefinately. So just making crafted items attuneable isnt going to solve anything, because the circulation of better dropped gear will still be available. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And any complaints about adventurers not being able to make money this way are also void, since the NO DROP items will still be able to be sold to NPCs. So while you might not be able to charge 15g for a BP from EL for example, you can still get 5-6g from an NPC. In addition to the stacks of common mob drops.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And yes, making dropped gear NO DROP will result in people having to actually go and get the item themselves, resulting in people killing certain mobs more frequently. But that can easily be solved by adding the same item to multiple mob loot tables. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is in no way ever going to be perfect in everyones eyes. But as of now, the circulation of superior dropped gear, the ease IMO of obtaining that dropped gear, and the fact that gear never leaves the economy. Is hurting crafters far more than making these changes would hurt adventurers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyone that complains that crafters already make more money than adventurers is correct..... until the NPC buyback prices are altered. At that point the only way for crafters to make money will be the player market, and Adventurers will far far outdistance crafters in money at that point if nothing is done to control dropped gear. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S. Any change right now is going to be painful. But im more concerned with the health of the game in the long run. Constructive feedback is appreciated =) Posts driven from nothing more than personal greed well, theres a few things i can say about that but they will all be faarnerfed.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Brugeor on <span class=date_text>02-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:50 AM</span>

[Dalchar]

Only problem I forsee is the crafted items with rare harvested components are already extremely rare...

[ReilenBlaeyze]

<blockquote><hr>aeiouy wrote:<blockquote><hr>Kit_Oturea wrote:<DIV>I believe they mean all crafted weapons and armor become attunable, not ALL weapons and armor in the game.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><hr></blockquote>Actually moorgard said almost all weapons and armor would become attunable. When I first read it, I thought it was only crafted as well, but that doesn't really make sense. So I am assuming at this point he means almost all weapons and armor.<hr></blockquote>This is because you are reading moorgards post out of context...This post is from the tradeskill forums.

[Thesp]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Brugeor wrote:<BR> <DIV>IMO i think dropped armor/weapons should be NO DROP, and crafted items should be attuneable. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>That would basically destroy the economy altogether. Things would rot on a regular basis that someone out there could use but because theres no one in the immediate group who can use it, the item goes to waste. This is how eqlive was at the start and it flubbed up the economy for the life of the game. No Drop = bad, attunable = good. There needs to be a thriving economy for an MMO.</DIV>

[TorakAig]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dalcharis wrote:<BR>Only problem I forsee is the crafted items with rare harvested components are already extremely rare...<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Yes but crafted items made with rare harvested components are already attunable, so there isn't any change on that part of things.

[Grinda]

It already is Evercamp.well, for the ebayers anyway, drop by the tower of Vul in the Feerrott on steamfont sometime.theres the usual two ebayers sat there 23/7 (and i mean that very litteraly) killing The Fetid Ralosian Bouncer over and over every 15 minutes and fighting over him, and also camping the Devout Thule Satar. Lgwmoon and his army of bots, and Ekosjie or however its name is spelt, along with his army of bots also.Im sick of these [FAAR-NERFED!]s being there and lagging everyone who gets within 10ft of them, and im tired of not being able to kill certain mobs in zones because these morons are sat on them all day every day.<b>I want PVP</b>. Id spend my time harvesting Ebayer corpses then.

[Bruge]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Thespar wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Brugeor wrote:<BR> <DIV>IMO i think dropped armor/weapons should be NO DROP, and crafted items should be attuneable. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>That would basically destroy the economy altogether. Things would rot on a regular basis that someone out there could use but because theres no one in the immediate group who can use it, the item goes to waste. This is how eqlive was at the start and it flubbed up the economy for the life of the game. No Drop = bad, attunable = good. There needs to be a thriving economy for an MMO.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>In EQLives economy yes. The crafting side of EQlive wasnt anywhere near what the capabilities of the crafting side of this game are. The thriving economy in this game is supposed to be majorly attuned to the player made items. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Having gear rot because no one can use it isnt as bad as having multiple crafters rot because the items they can make cant compete with the dropped items that are abundant on the market, and over time will only become more so.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In EQLive the market was run by dropped gear, player made gear was pretty ridiculous. So of course you had to have access to the dropped gear some way other than getting it yourself. In this game the standard is supposed to be the player crafted gear, and any dropped gear that is better than player made gear is supposed to be a reward not a requirement.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So in a game like this one is set up, where crafting is a profession in and of itself, you have to let the crafting community shine and thrive, and make those nice dropped items something that you have to work to obtain. Not go search for on the broker.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Brugeor on <span class=date_text>02-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:20 PM</span>

[digitalblasphemy]

<blockquote><hr>Brugeor wrote:<DIV>IMO i think dropped armor/weapons should be NO DROP, and crafted items should be attuneable. </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Of course the campers that make profit selling the dropped gear are going to complain. </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>But anyone that isnt being inspired by greed will see the benefits in doing this. As long as dropped gear outshines crafted gear, they should make it so if you want it, you have to actually go and get it. Not just camp the broker.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Crafted items being attuneable as stated previously will still allow them to be handed around and sold until someone uses it. </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>One of the big reasons crafted items are so hard to move isnt completely due to the fact that dropped gear is better, its because dropped gear can be sold, traded, handed down indefinately. So just making crafted items attuneable isnt going to solve anything, because the circulation of better dropped gear will still be available. </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>And any complaints about adventurers not being able to make money this way are also void, since the NO DROP items will still be able to be sold to NPCs. So while you might not be able to charge 15g for a BP from EL for example, you can still get 5-6g from an NPC. In addition to the stacks of common mob drops.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>And yes, making dropped gear NO DROP will result in people having to actually go and get the item themselves, resulting in people killing certain mobs more frequently. But that can easily be solved by adding the same item to multiple mob loot tables. </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>It is in no way ever going to be perfect in everyones eyes. But as of now, the circulation of superior dropped gear, the ease IMO of obtaining that dropped gear, and the fact that gear never leaves the economy. Is hurting crafters far more than making these changes would hurt adventurers.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Anyone that complains that crafters already make more money than adventurers is correct..... until the NPC buyback prices are altered. At that point the only way for crafters to make money will be the player market, and Adventurers will far far outdistance crafters in money at that point if nothing is done to control dropped gear. </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>P.S. Any change right now is going to be painful. But im more concerned with the health of the game in the long run. Constructive feedback is appreciated =) Posts driven from nothing more than personal greed well, theres a few things i can say about that but they will all be faarnerfed.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Brugeor on <span class=date_text>02-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:50 AM</span><hr></blockquote>A few interesting things here. First making dropped armor/weapons no drop to begin with is simply not gonna happen. They may make everything attuneable but make it no drop is something entirely different.To even claim that anyone not agreeing with this update is a camper/farmer is a bit naive of you. You don't know me any better than I know you, so don't assume you know the reasons why this update doesn't sit well with me. I posted in depth in the same thread Mooreguard posted in. I'm not gonna rehash constantly the same postings.Now if your sig picture is uptodate you are a lvl 30 Guardian with 30k status points correct? Ok well I'm a lvl 49 Guard with 711k sp. I do know how to play this game. I've done the grinds and paid for it many times over in debt. To assume one has not tried to get all their armor and gear from drops is again naive on your part. Hence the word EverCamp. Unless you camp a mob for eternity and kill it more than a plat farmer is going to farm it, to get an entire set of dropped armor is very very difficult without purchasing some items from the broker. Throw in now making these items attuneable and how is gonna help the economy? It won't. If Beriks is selling for 10pp currently, then a piece of attune rubite that sold between 1-2pp will not sell for 10. Wonderfull. So the alternative is to grind it out for weeks on a mob until you get your desired drop or if after trying for 4 weeks like I had done with my exp turned off so I would not grey out the mob you finally sucumb to the crazy house, borrow the money to go with what you have and purchase the item from the broker. Attune = higher prices. How does that help me? It helps the crafters. It doesn't help me in the slightest. What this also forces you do to is join a high member guild so you can pretty much get a group when you want to go kill these mobs.To say purchasing something from a broker is the easy way out implies to me that you think it's a freebie without having to earn it in either coin or exping for it. The way things are now, peeps are reluctant to even give "mates rates" or a reduction on the price they would normally sell it for on the broker as they know these items are in high demand. Again you're a lvl 30 Guard if your sig is correct. What do you know about drops and mobs in EF, PF, LS or SE. Not a stroll in the park I can tell you that. No high lvl player did it the easy way. There is no easy way to lvl in adventuring unless you made a twink. If you were a first generation player you earned what you had with debt and hard work. There was no macroing like the tradeskills guys discovered. Again to assume mine or others disagreements are based on greed is perposterous. I don't like this proposed change and I'm voicing my oppinion. I'm entitled to that without you accusing me of being a greed driven plat farmer.

[Ethi]

<DIV>I've been [Removed for Content] for all armor & weapons other than that sold in NPC shops to be attunable since before the game was released!!  So all I can say at this point is "It's about time!!"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like others have said any market where stuff goes in and never goes out will self destruct.  I don't like the idea of my treasured items exploding in a poof of iron dust when I'm using them or if I die.  So attuniing is a perfect solution.  Afterall who would really want to buy and old dented up piece of someone smelly cast off armor?!!  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Good Job!! So far this patch is stacking up to be a 5 gold star patch!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Zasarix]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fireci wrote:<BR> <DIV>CRAFTED weapons and Armor will be attunable, not Quest or Mob-Dropped armor.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think this is an excellent change and will help create a consumable market for armor and weapon crafters.  Otherwise, 2 years down the road, no one would ever take up these professions since the market will be glutted with used armor and weapons from toons past.  And letting us sell Attuned weapon is a nice bonus too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well done SoE!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fireci - Najena</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Fireci on <SPAN class=date_text>02-15-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:21 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>WELL DONE SOE, I had not known about this, I give them /applaud  </P> <P>This will let us sell our wares consistently!  Instead of me passing down my armor to m-  Err.. HURRAH.</P> <P>lol, this will honestly be a good change, and like any change, there is going to be alot of whining, give it up people, nothing is paradise for everyone, besides, you'll be able to sell it *shrug*</P>

[Bravnik]

<DIV>I say we just scrap the Artisian classes all together and everyone get their drops from mobs. This way we can all just have fun and all the greedy people can go find another game to play <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>J/K Of Course (Except for the Greedy Part - Everyone knows crafters (Most Anyway) are in it just for the money).</DIV>

[Aegori]

<DIV>Personally, i applaud this step in the crafting evolution. It will make a market for well into the future instead of seeing our wares tossed from one character to the next. Well done SOE. This is tandem with the upcoming crafting vs. dropped loot balance pass and recipe additions you talked about (see dev tracker) should make for a very profitable and useful crafting community <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Aeg</DIV>

[Jan It]

Yet another step I appreciate a lot in making the game better. Those permanent improvements easily make up for the nerfs I´ve experienced by now. I think people will be much happier now when they get some great loot. Until now, when I didn´t get anything I told myself, what the heck, i´ll sell all those vendor fodder that I earned and get it on the broker later. With items much more scarce the loot will have much more excitement again, yay. And finally, because of this, NBG in pickup groups will be dieing out. AWESOME! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Only thing I second is that rare crafted items should be tradeable as before, they are really scarce already.

[Drtydog]

<DIV>"Almost all armor and weapons will become attunable."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't know what this means.  I kinda have to agree with the guy who started this thread.  The game is called Everquest not Evercraft and don't get me wrong, i'm a crafter as well.  I use to make potions and resins etc, well that is until they nerfed the alchemist to where now everyone can make them. LOL.  Oh and i use to have a horse......whoever heard of a horse that can only run as fast as a gnome....nerfed that as well...but they introduced a flying carpet... now let me ask you...do you have the balls to buy one knwoing that in 2 months they'll nerf it? only Xp!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! of which you probably got from selling. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't know what this will do except make me camp the same mob for every char which, i'm sorry, leads to evercamping.  The solution here is missed yet again by SOE.  Make the crafted items harder to make but better quality than what drops...give the adventurers money to buy them....but that's not what they did.  They made it harder on the adventurers.  I mean after 8 hours and three days of playing i got teh shiney freakin halberd for the guild exp and got my ASSASSIN got the shiney waste of a weapon.  Delete.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I like the game.  I play it daily however we all plan on the future based on the rules, then spend our time and money to achieve goals jsut to have SOE pull the rug out from under us.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At least they are putting a merchant into the game to buy back those 5p horses....mighty nice of them. of course whatching those horses run over the commonlands was cool too...../sigh</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Zagur]

<DIV>If they make items attunable, rest assured it will be both crafted and dropped, not just crafted. If they made it just crafted it would make the situation worse, not better. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What you would rather buy, a dropped item that you can resell to others when you are done with it, or a crafted item that gets permanently attuned and has to be sold to the NPC vendor for a fraction of its value? </DIV>

[WAPCE]

So all of us that ridiculously overpaid for high-level armor on the presumption that we'd be able to resell for a significant but reasonable loss when there are more armorers making it will instead get to trade it in to a merchant for the crafting cost? Lovely. <img src="http://home.comcast.net/~axp696/forumimages/smiley/rolleyes.gif">

[Bhagpuss]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bravnik wrote:<BR> <DIV>I say we just scrap the Artisian classes all together and everyone get their drops from mobs. This way we can all just have fun and all the greedy people can go find another game to play <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>J/K Of Course (Except for the Greedy Part - Everyone knows crafters (Most Anyway) are in it just for the money).</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>That's not a joke to me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The first half-decent MMORPG that dares to do away with the idea of an economy completely and concentrates entirely on providing interesting, intriguing and challenging adventure is going to clean up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Harking back to my old pen and paper RPG days, we didn't need another entirely separate group of players sitting in the kitchen roleplaying blacksmiths, tailors and brewers so that we could go out dragon-slaying. Nor did we spend half our time rooting through donkey-cart sales and haggling with other groups of adventurers over the treasure they got in the campaign before last that they'd grown out of.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How and why MMORPGs got locked into this doomed cycle of attempting to simulate a working economy is beyond me, but surely it can't be that long before some developer finally says "the heck with it" and designs a game for people who want to build up characters and adventure, not replicate their normal shopping habits in a high medieaval marketplace.</DIV>

[Bruge]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bhagpuss wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bravnik wrote:<BR> <DIV>I say we just scrap the Artisian classes all together and everyone get their drops from mobs. This way we can all just have fun and all the greedy people can go find another game to play <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>J/K Of Course (Except for the Greedy Part - Everyone knows crafters (Most Anyway) are in it just for the money).</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>That's not a joke to me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The first half-decent MMORPG that dares to do away with the idea of an economy completely and concentrates entirely on providing interesting, intriguing and challenging adventure is going to clean up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Harking back to my old pen and paper RPG days, we didn't need another entirely separate group of players sitting in the kitchen roleplaying blacksmiths, tailors and brewers so that we could go out dragon-slaying. Nor did we spend half our time rooting through donkey-cart sales and haggling with other groups of adventurers over the treasure they got in the campaign before last that they'd grown out of.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How and why MMORPGs got locked into this doomed cycle of attempting to simulate a working economy is beyond me, but surely it can't be that long before some developer finally says "the heck with it" and designs a game for people who want to build up characters and adventure, not replicate their normal shopping habits in a high medieaval marketplace.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>As appealing as that may sound to some people, no company in there right mind in todays trends would do that just because of the customer base that actually enjoys crafting type gameplay over adventuring. It would mean a loss of a playerbase which means a loss of profit.</P> <P>I mean even the Matrix Online is going to have a crafting type class just because of that.</P>

[Lo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Brugeor wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bhagpuss wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bravnik wrote:<BR> <DIV>I say we just scrap the Artisian classes all together and everyone get their drops from mobs. This way we can all just have fun and all the greedy people can go find another game to play <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>J/K Of Course (Except for the Greedy Part - Everyone knows crafters (Most Anyway) are in it just for the money).</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>That's not a joke to me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The first half-decent MMORPG that dares to do away with the idea of an economy completely and concentrates entirely on providing interesting, intriguing and challenging adventure is going to clean up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Harking back to my old pen and paper RPG days, we didn't need another entirely separate group of players sitting in the kitchen roleplaying blacksmiths, tailors and brewers so that we could go out dragon-slaying. Nor did we spend half our time rooting through donkey-cart sales and haggling with other groups of adventurers over the treasure they got in the campaign before last that they'd grown out of.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How and why MMORPGs got locked into this doomed cycle of attempting to simulate a working economy is beyond me, but surely it can't be that long before some developer finally says "the heck with it" and designs a game for people who want to build up characters and adventure, not replicate their normal shopping habits in a high medieaval marketplace.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>As appealing as that may sound to some people, no company in there right mind in todays trends would do that just because of the customer base that actually enjoys crafting type gameplay over adventuring. It would mean a loss of a playerbase which means a loss of profit.</P> <P>I mean even the Matrix Online is going to have a crafting type class just because of that.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Come on. Crafting is no fun. It never was. We are in it for the money. nothing else. </P> <P>(at least for me and approximatetly 80% of all crafters)</P>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> </P> <P>digitalblasphemy wrote:<BR> .......It's the mediocre kill 10 mobs for a choice of armor,weapon,gear quests that are flooding the marketplace.......</P> <P>..... But making everything attune is not the solution. ......</P> <P> <HR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE>On the contrary - making each and every quested item attunable would give jewelers, armorers and weaponsmiths a chance to sell their crafted wares without having to compete against this stuff that everyone sells for 2 silver just to clear his inventory.<BR>

[Jeridor]

Actually, it's not clear whether they mean crafted items only or drops too. I hope it's both. However, this issue is moot. Attunable items can be traded or sold on the market just fine unless you actually attune them. So there's no reason for these items to be any less available than they were before. The only thing future players will lose out on are hand-me-down gifts and sales, which is mostly irrelevant to specific mobs and camping. People will still camp something if the loot can be sold well and in turn it will be on the market for sale as it has been.I'm not pro-camping by any means, but this attunable items change has very little effect on the issue of camps.

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Load wrote:<BR><BR> <P>Come on. Crafting is no fun. It never was. We are in it for the money. nothing else. </P> <P>(at least for me and approximatetly 80% of all crafters)</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>count me on the other 20% - i loved artisan to lvl 9, doing my own spell upgrades, crafting my own armor&backpacks and cocking my own food.</P> <P>the first 9 levels where the ones i had most fun as a crafter but now at 17 am allready looking forward to craft some blackiron chainmail stuff for the spots I couldnt get a real good quested or dropped item so far. </P> <P>you can do both for fun or profit - crafting or adventure. and a greedy player will always be a greedy player, no matter what he's spending his time with.</P>

[Nuvi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Brugeor wrote:<BR> <DIV>IMO i think dropped armor/weapons should be NO DROP, and crafted items should be attuneable. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Of course the campers that make profit selling the dropped gear are going to complain. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Brugeor on <SPAN class=date_text>02-15-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:50 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>so adventurers arent supposed 2 make any money eh?</DIV> <DIV>i bet your a crafter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[aeio]

<blockquote><hr>ReilenBlaeyze wrote:<blockquote><hr>aeiouy wrote:<blockquote><hr>Kit_Oturea wrote:<DIV>I believe they mean all crafted weapons and armor become attunable, not ALL weapons and armor in the game.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><hr></blockquote>Actually moorgard said almost all weapons and armor would become attunable. When I first read it, I thought it was only crafted as well, but that doesn't really make sense. So I am assuming at this point he means almost all weapons and armor.<hr></blockquote>This is because you are reading moorgards post out of context...This post is from the tradeskill forums.<hr></blockquote>Moorgard doesn't write like that... If he meant tradeskill items he would have said so...As you can see from the latest patch notes on the test server, this did mean most equipment, dropped, quested or tradeskilled.

[prisoner]

I notice that we'll be able to sell old armor back to npc merchants at least. I just hope they give a decent buyback. If we only get a few silvers for what most of us paid 2gp+ for (general price on t4 armors/jewelry, on my server at least) its gonna suck <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Zagur]

<DIV>I hate to say it prisoner17 because I agree with you, but my guess is the NPC buyback values will be significantly below what you paid for them. SOE is looking at a lot of changes to slow down the economy and low buyback values would certainly fit the bill.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hopefully I'm a bad guesser!:smileytongue:</DIV>

[Shade]

<blockquote><hr>Ethion wrote:<DIV>I've been [Removed for Content] for all armor & weapons other than that sold in NPC shops to be attunable since before the game was released!! So all I can say at this point is "It's about time!!"</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Like others have said any market where stuff goes in and never goes out will self destruct. I don't like the idea of my treasured items exploding in a poof of iron dust when I'm using them or if I die. So attuniing is a perfect solution. Afterall who would really want to buy and old dented up piece of someone smelly cast off armor?!! </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Good Job!! So far this patch is stacking up to be a 5 gold star patch!!</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><hr></blockquote>Who would want to buy old dented up peices of armor ?? How about someone who can't afford to pay 5 to 7 gold for a new set every time armor goes blue (or white even), how about someone who on top of that can't afford to buy a shield and a weapon with that, or how about someone that doesn't play 8+ hours every day to be able to start a successfull crafting class and sell what they can to make coin, what about someone who doesn't have an interest in crafting period ?? So who buys them now and who will be left out to dry one more F*&%^$% time, none hardcore players who actually want to "play" a "game" and have "fun". Simpl fact is, anyone who doesn't have a problem with this is a player that has ton's of coin now and doesn't neeed to worry about it, and IS a hardcore player. Great job SOE, their who you wanted playing your game, it's all your going to have soon.

[DMIstar]

<DIV>Generally I Like the Idea, and no im not an hardcore player... But do know weaponsmiths/armorsmiths need some sort of help, cause all that will happen is armor will be flooded into the market fast and cheap, its currently happening now on my server.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I Can see draw backs to this though, they are there and present.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One, there are those who like to take old gear and move it to thier alts when outgrown in it.. Which this will prevent from happening on some gear.. Maybe have a smith merchant that ye pay some coin to unattune, Keep at a less cost and that way ye already have the armor and can pay to switch it over.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Alot of ppl here are suggesting that they are intending to nerf the mob armor with this, but i highly doubt it, if SOE didnt want that armor in the market place they would of just placed No Trade on Item to begin with, or have it attunable to start, There is attunable items already out there, this is nothing New. I believe they only have the intentions realy to attune Crafters items for this change.</DIV>

[Squallaby]

<blockquote><hr>Bhagpuss wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Bravnik wrote:<BR><DIV>I say we just scrap the Artisian classes all together and everyone get their drops from mobs. This way we can all just have fun and all the greedy people can go find another game to play <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>J/K Of Course (Except for the Greedy Part - Everyone knows crafters (Most Anyway) are in it just for the money).</DIV><BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><DIV>That's not a joke to me.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>The first half-decent MMORPG that dares to do away with the idea of an economy completely and concentrates entirely on providing interesting, intriguing and challenging adventure is going to clean up.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Harking back to my old pen and paper RPG days, we didn't need another entirely separate group of players sitting in the kitchen roleplaying blacksmiths, tailors and brewers so that we could go out dragon-slaying. Nor did we spend half our time rooting through donkey-cart sales and haggling with other groups of adventurers over the treasure they got in the campaign before last that they'd grown out of.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>How and why MMORPGs got locked into this doomed cycle of attempting to simulate a working economy is beyond me, but surely it can't be that long before some developer finally says "the heck with it" and designs a game for people who want to build up characters and adventure, not replicate their normal shopping habits in a high medieaval marketplace.</DIV><hr></blockquote>It already exists.Its Called "City of Heros"It does.. ok <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />No crafting.. just combat.. and some of it very interesting combat.

[Sacha]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> aeiouy wrote:<BR><BR><BR>Moorgard doesn't write like that... If he meant tradeskill items he would have said so...<BR><BR>As you can see from the latest patch notes on the test server, this did mean most equipment, dropped, quested or tradeskilled.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I can confirm this is correct. I've logged into four of my eight characters on test and they had to attune everything except some shop-bought armour on one of the newbies. <STRONG>All</STRONG> quested, looted and crafted armour had to be attuned.</DIV>

[Bruge]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sacha wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> aeiouy wrote:<BR><BR><BR>Moorgard doesn't write like that... If he meant tradeskill items he would have said so...<BR><BR>As you can see from the latest patch notes on the test server, this did mean most equipment, dropped, quested or tradeskilled.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I can confirm this is correct. I've logged into four of my eight characters on test and they had to attune everything except some shop-bought armour on one of the newbies. <U><FONT color=#ffff00>All quested, looted and crafted armour had to be attuned.</FONT></U></DIV> <P><BR></P> <P> <HR> </P> <P> </P> <P>That is wonderful. And i not being sarcastic. I honestly feel this will be a positive change in the long run. </P> <P>And alot of people seem to be under the assumption that once you attune an item that the value of that item is done. But its already been stated that you will be able to sell attuned armor back to NPCs for a decent price. So adventurers will have a choice, do not attune dropped items and sell them to other players, or actually use it and sell it to an NPC for at least some coin in addition to the value the armor provided while you were using it.</P> <P>The choices as far as i can see are either what they are doing now and making everything attuneable, or add in item decay. And we can all guess what kind of posts would start popping up if item decay was implemented.</P> <P>So well done SOE, wonderful step to attempt to prevent the market from completely stagnating in a few months.</P> <P>Keep up the good work.</P> <P>P.S. still /grumbling about the crafting dependancy changes..... :smileysad: </P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[bmcd]

<DIV>Yes so I will be able to sell my armor, that I  spent several gold apiece for, for a coulple of silver since Sony does not want crafters to make a killing selling their stuff to merchants.  Hmmmm, guess I am missing something here, how is this helping me?  Can anybody please tell me how this helps my gaming experiance, because I can not see how people who adventure get any benefit out of this change. Time to start up my druid again, he can get by on green/grey gear unlike my Monk who needs to keep up with the upgrades.</DIV>

[TorakAig]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bmcdsm wrote:<BR> <DIV>Yes so I will be able to sell my armor, that I  spent several gold apiece for, for a coulple of silver since Sony does not want crafters to make a killing selling their stuff to merchants.  Hmmmm, guess I am missing something here, how is this helping me?  Can anybody please tell me how this helps my gaming experiance, because I can not see how people who adventure get any benefit out of this change. Time to start up my druid again, he can get by on green/grey gear unlike my Monk who needs to keep up with the upgrades.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>So basically what you want is to be able to buy armor, use the heck out of it, then resell it and capture back all or most of the cost?  Sounds to me like you want a handout.  In the real world, when you buy something it loses value the moment you take possession.  People don't generally run around in full suits of armor these days, so I will use a car as an example:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You buy a car for say $30,000.00.  You drive it for a few years, then later in life you decide to get a new car.  Can you trade in that car for the same $30k that you paid for it?  No, at most you will get a mere fraction of that as a trade in value.  That little amount of money gets applied towards the price of a new car, then you are paying the rest of the price out of your pocket.  Even if you do sell it to someone else you wont get anywhere near the price you paid for it.  (Note:  I am not talking about classic restored cars that increase in value as antiques, I'm referring to normal, everyday cars.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The difference here is that cars ware down, their parts get old and eventually, the car gets junked.  Armor and weapons in this game do not, so steps had to be taken in order for crafters to be able to sell their wares without having to worry about how flooded the market is with already used, but still pristine items.</DIV>

[digitalblasphemy]

That's not what he said Torak. If you buy a car for 30k you don't expect to be paid $30 from a buy back car merchant now do you. But you do expect if you've had that car for 1 year let's say, to get in the late teens to low 20k range for that car. Everyone knows you lose money on anything you buy brand new in the real world and that's the same in this game, unless the item in question is so rare it's able to to keep it's price regardless of how many times sold.I'm not fooled in the slightest by the supposed benefit of being able to sell attuned gear to npc merchants. The buy back rate is gonna be the same that current merchants offer for items. A rubicite bp get's 6g40s from a merchant. What person in this entire game would sell it for that. It's worth 1pp currently and that's the cheap rate. It sells for 2pp on a regular basis. So I'm supposed to be all happy and do the jiggle dance cause now I can get 6g40s for my attuned rubicite bp from a buy back npc merchant. Total rubbish. I'd rather destroy it and hand out free drinks in my group for a time well had with my old bp. Being able to sell old gear is part of this game and has always been. The only people grumbling are the crafters and the very real problems they have been experiencing. But now us adventurers are gonna get the smackdown with this change. Buying old armor is not a handmedown unless it's your own alt your putting it on. I still had to earn my coin to purchase this item.Adventurers are gonna eat it bad on this change. Crafters will now have an almost unlimited source of income. Adventurers make their income from 3 ways. Selling no stat items to npc merchants. Selling stat gear on the merchants for current market value. And selling their older gear to fund being able to buy new gear. The first 2 options for most of us do not alone make very much money. Quite often the most valuable things we have are the things we have equiped.The only times I've seen said rubicite bp on the merchants is when someone had upgrade to the pristine ebon vanguard stuff made by yes you guys, the crafters. Then that person puts their rubicite bp on the market. These items are rare at best. Now they will never appear on the brokers at all and if so will be 10-20x more expensive.Apart from the easy quested kill 10 of these and get some armor quests, there is not a glut of looted armor that anyone actually desires on the merchants. Go lookup how many rubicite items are on your servers brokers. On mine there is currently 3 rubicite (all forearms) item total from both Q and FP brokers.Do you guys really think the npc merchants are gonna give anywhere near decent prices for armor? Of course not. If a current merchant will give only 6g40s for the rubicite bp, why would that merchant now give 50-75g for it? It won't. It's gonna give you the same rate of 6g40s. I sense very few crafters here can even relate to what I'm describing. You use all your own gear you make. You are not the ones plunking down 1-2pp for armor items. With this potential change, my return is gonna be 5-6gp for that item, instead of the current market value at the time I want to sell that item. For the aforementioned item, the rubicite bp, it will always be in the 40-75g range for many months to come.<p>Message Edited by digitalblasphemy on <span class=date_text>02-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:23 PM</span>

[Talbot]

<DIV>THis is personally why I self police myself.  I do not sell any player crafted items on the broker save the things I create.  Once I am done using them i sell them to the NPC vendor.  As a craftsman, I want to see other craftsman succeed.  The only thing I sell on the broker are spells, TS books and food.  That is it.  EVerything else, guess what if you need a piece of armor you are going to have to find your local artisan.  Sure I may make less selling it back to the NPC vendor but, I know I did my part in ensuring some items are removed from the game.  </DIV>

[celdar]

<DIV>The simplest solution will be for adventurers to take up crafting and make their own gear, except what they manage to loot. I see several problems with attuning things that some of you are apparently overlooking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) What adventurer in his right mind is going to buy any item that cons less than orange? Nobody. If you can't resell gear, then only buying orange con gear is the only way to get maximum value for your cash. If you craft an item that's for a level 35, you can be sure no one 36+ will buy it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) So, a player has a green con item on, levels and it goes gray. So, he sees a questable item that he can use next level. Does he go out and buy an item that must be attuned, just for that one level? I certainly would not, I would deal with having a gray item in that slot for one level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If keeping tradeskills viable is important to SoE, making nearly everything attunable may help, but it's not going to help as much as some of you seem to think.</DIV>

[Lo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Talbot wrote:<BR> <DIV>THis is personally why I self police myself.  I do not sell any player crafted items on the broker save the things I create.  Once I am done using them i sell them to the NPC vendor.  As a craftsman, I want to see other craftsman succeed.  The only thing I sell on the broker are spells, TS books and food.  That is it.  EVerything else, guess what if you need a piece of armor you are going to have to find your local artisan.  Sure I may make less selling it back to the NPC vendor but, I know I did my part in ensuring some items are removed from the game.  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>How about destroying all your stuff ? Wouldnt help that the community even more ?</P> <P>Why are you selling spells at the broker ? Are you a sage-hater ? Food at the broker ? Oh my god, all provisioners will suffer from your selfish actions.</P> <P>I am ensuring the economy too by selling crude ink to the NPC all day long. I dont bother with selling to other players <STRONG>because</STRONG> i will help them!</P>

[Lancealittle]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TorakAigia wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bmcdsm wrote:<BR> <DIV>Yes so I will be able to sell my armor, that I  spent several gold apiece for, for a coulple of silver since Sony does not want crafters to make a killing selling their stuff to merchants.  Hmmmm, guess I am missing something here, how is this helping me?  Can anybody please tell me how this helps my gaming experiance, because I can not see how people who adventure get any benefit out of this change. Time to start up my druid again, he can get by on green/grey gear unlike my Monk who needs to keep up with the upgrades.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>So basically what you want is to be able to buy armor, use the heck out of it, then resell it and capture back all or most of the cost? </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Hi there TorakAigia,</P> <P>One important thing I've learned from this board is to not try to bring logic to an emotional argument. </P> <P>No amount of talking will make people understand that this is a good change if they were people who made a lot of cash from selling their hand-me-downs for huge profits.</P> <P>I'll just say that in my oppinion (and that of the game developers) this change will be good for the game and leave it at that.<BR></P>