I guess it must be me?

[HazNpho]

I don't get zonewide vs single mob... Not in the sense of what are they, but in why you think zonewide should be more important, the only reason our zonewide comes close to these other T1 DPS classes is because of our 10-15 minute Assassinate/Decapitate and our 2-3 minute Killing blade.To me, we should be top... single mob, thats what most people say at least, and I agree. So that means single mob hits should outparse anything else. Meaning our zonewide will obviously be better if the zone isn't filled with trash group encounters. Thats where I see a wizard or warlock dominating, they have their AoE nukes, thats what they are good at. A swash should not in any count come close to us single mob/zonewide but maybe in group they can. Though highly unlikely as they have the same amount of AoE's as we do.Yet that isn't the case, a single necro with lifeburn can torch us single mob, now I don't know the recast on that so I don't know how it compares, but I seem to remember the mention that its 5 minutes? so that means 2:1 they beat us vs assassinate/decap, yet this spell can ultimatly do more damage then those two skills. Manaburn is the same way.Now a swash has all this extra utility and debuffs to him, so he is good to a group there, top the fact that he's now the new T1 DPS, so where does that leave us? In the gutter rotting... and before you say hate transfer... correct me if I am wrong but doesn't a swash/brig (one or the other, or both) have FD? So they can instantly drop the agro gain there. And there's always rescue, (going to be flamed for this) but for the few times they lose agro, they have some skills to decrease, they have access to poisons that decrease, and there are items with distraction to help, and if all that doesn't work, tank uses rescue... big deal. So with all of this they rule T1 DPS, offer utility, and can take more hits then we can.So your saying that a good Assassin with equal equipment or better to a Swashy should be able to be outparsed by a mediocre Swashy, and this is considered ok? And you don't think this makes us second rate now? So basically what your saying is because a swashy is doing so much better then us, and offering so much more then us, it would be OK for sony to give them hate transfer along with apply poison? Our only 2 unique buffs? And that if a mage is outparsing us but drawing agro, they should be complimented with a hate transfer as well? I mean its only fair, how else do they make use of all this Uber DPS they can cause without getting agro. So in a perfect world, I should have a million dollars and you should all be poor, but thats OK, cause I bring more to the table then you anyways... Give me a break!There is no way that we should sit back and be content that a mediocre or less T2 DPS class has raised the T1 bar and we no longer meet it. Those of you that go on flaming people cause you are able to beat out all these other classes must be missing something here, or your not paying attention, I'll admit, I'm not the best assassin, I knew this before EoF, but I was on my way to perfecting my class. Now... I can't even do that. With nowhere to go how do we tie up with the new T1 classes? We can't. I'd honestly like to see how many of you really are beating these other classes, and I'd like a true list of who your beating, with what gear on both you and them, as well as your spells vs theirs, then let those that are better then me, and are having a problem with being beat out like this post and tare apart your stories of fame and glory.In all honesty I could say right now that I have rarely been beat out, but with no facts to prove it... its hard to say I'm telling the truth. You want facts? I'm 3 times better equiped then those I am beating out. Thats the cold truth of it. And when I beat them out, unless Assassinate or killing blade is up, its not by much. And even then, thats without LB/MB/DH or any of the new AA's they got. Hell some of them don't even have full AA's in KoS yet.<div></div>

[-Steppenwolf-]

I too don't think zone wide parses are really relevant. Who cares about trash mobs? To me the dps that matters is the one needed on difficult fights, because that's where it will make a difference between success or failure. Trash mobs will die fast no matter what, the only difference being the time it will take.Zone wide dps only shows how much you're contributing to the speed at which your raid is going through an instance. It doesn't show who is the most useful to <b>win </b>the difficult fights...<div></div>

[Computer MAn]

Zone wide parses are used because anyone can slack on a few mobs or have some really good parses when everything is up. Zone wides estimate how much damage you can consistently do throughout a zone. When a wizard Manaburns they have no power and won't have that again for a few fights down the road. I personally don't see why everyone is complaining about losing a parse here and there. If you want to rule out fights where we use KB and Decap than rule out fights where other classes use Inspiration, Ice Nova etc. That is why zone parses are good imo because you don't have just one fight where every special is up its a whole zone worth of parses where you won't have your big hits every mob.<div></div>

[Gerdos]

<DIV>/agreed with Cochy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(said it already), a great assassin will now only top dps on about 30% of encounters.  About the same as a great ranger, while the remaing 40% is shared between the other classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's the zonewide parses that reflect what's really happening .. and predators generally share the top2 spots on most zones.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Nathdorl]

you are not serious about the ranger part are ya?

[t0gar]

You forgot that swashy actually have better deaggro. They have hate transfer like us and a deaggro buff proc. Even with their extra DPS/utility hate they dont even need to use elude. Our hate transfer isn't unique at all. But honestly no DPS suited rouge would go for FD. We still have 2x the chance of grabbing aggro then they though.<div></div>

[Merkad]

<div></div>This may be an anomaly, or it may not. But to me and my guild, Rangers are not some second class dps. Typically, in my guild either our Conjuror or myself tops the parse. Perhaps we just play harder, but that is the way it is. This here is a screenshot I posted for our Conjuror because he was out of town for most of the month (we have a friendly rivalry). I have erased the other names and will instead just list their class.As a preempt on future assertions and questions, Yes I know that those classes I listed can do more than they did this fight. Why the difference is that high, I cannot say. With that...http://xs511.xs.to/xs511/07023/Parse2.pngImo, 2422dps over 5 full minutes is not shabby. I actually think this was an anomally, it is a bit high for a longer duration fight, I probably got lucky with a few good double attacks/crits. That said, I do hit 2ks alot (my overall for this zone sans Mayong was 1570, well ahead of everyone else). I am mostly mastered (sans precise shot for damage CAs) 80 AAs (plenty to go for increased damage) with a Bazkul for ammo and an ASWB as my main bow. I generally have about 80haste and 90dps and ~700ish str, what I would give for an illusionist. Finally, I sincerely doubt that I am the best Ranger.Classes were...Ranger2 blood collosiNecroWizardWarlockAssassinWarlockMonkZerker BrigandNecroAs a side note, if they upped their dps (because I agree some classes are too low), chances are the shortened duration would have uppped mine as well. (also I am not the only parser, I just always keep mine running for missed postings).Make of it what you will. Ah yeah, just copy the link and paste it in an address bar...I have no clue why the forums are so resistant to my posting an image.Merkades, 70th Ranger.Siege, Najena.<div></div>

[Ryugu]

At least you aren't the only one noticing us assassin's have it bad.I am a 69 assassin, 60% away from 70. I raid every now and then, mainly pickup raids. Many , MANY raid guilds, do not want assassins, any more. We have no utility, that's alright , we aren't supposed to. We are supposed to do only damage. And we do that. But see, It becomes unfair when other classes have 'utility' AND damage. Damage that can surpass ours. "Oh yea just lrn2play ur class omg n00b!" I'm really considering once hitting 70 im going to quest, a lot, make a  lot of plat to fund a new scout. Probably a swashbuckler. Or brigand, they can do everything we can, and more! D:. I wouldn't say exactly everything, I really haven't played one to a full extent. I have seen and played long enough to know a lot about these classes though.  This is unfair. SOE need's to fix the assassin class.<div></div>

[HellRaiserXX]

<P>The assassin class is not broken in any way shape or form, might be lacking in places (AAs?). For as long as I have played this game, no guild has wanted an assassin unless they didnt already have one.  Assassins have never been in high demand and we have always been in danger of losing out to utility classes.  In my guild when we were at a big important fight what did they do? Sit the assassins and bring in either more healers or some utility classes. Very few encounters in this game actually need tons of DPS, you can afford to sacrifice some raid DPS for more utility in most if not all cases.  </P> <P>Just because assassins arent top of the parse all the time really doesn't mean that much in all honesty.  All it means is that we now have more competition in the upper echelons of the parse than we did and if you arent on your game your gonna get your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] kicked.  TBH I was getting bored in KoS, I liked DoF cause it was fun to try to beat the ranger, rarely did that happen mind you, but it was a challenge.  KoS offered no challenge when it came to assassins DPSing now there is tons of challenge.</P> <P>Swashys parsing T1 DPS is an unbalanced thing, but honestly what can be done about it? Spend hours and hours and pages and pages complaining and whining and hoping SOE throws us a bone? [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] that, SOE doesn't intentionally throw bones.  You guys are unintentionally asking for one of two things: 1) Nerf Swashys so assassins can be #1 again or 2) Make assassins godlike so we can be #1 again.  Do you see where this is going? We aren't the only pure DPS class out there and in fact any changes done to assassins should mirrored in some form to rangers since they are our counterpart and rightfully deserve to be equal with us in DPS, since they are also without utility and to an even greater extent at that.  If you took out all other DPS classes except predators, assassins should still only parse #1 50% of the time. Like it or not we will not be the sole owner of the #1 spot anymore and shouldnt have ever been. Do your best to get it as often as possible, but as the system attempts to become more and more balanced a clear #1 should disappear. </P> <P>What I see so much is that people are unable to look beyong their class or if they do its only because someone else has something better. What about the other DPS classes who are getting owned by swashys? I wonder if they feel the same way, I doubt you will find too many threads on other class boards about this.  What I see is a bunch of players who think they deserve to be #1 for no better reason than that they play an assassin. Who cares about the other DPS classes, I play an assassin and therefore I should do the most dmg.  Wake up people, sure things still arent completely balanced, but its a helluva lot closer. Assassins being #1 in KoS is just as big of an imbalancement as Swashys and necros parsing Tier 1 DPS in EoF. I bet most of you don't see it that way though do ya?  </P> <P>Nope HazNpho its not just you, but you were close.</P><p>Message Edited by HellRaiserXX on <span class=date_text>01-09-2007</span> <span class=time_text>10:43 PM</span>

[Jayad]

<P>The reason zone-wide matters is because it reflects what the raid actually has to do - clear a whole zone. </P> <P>Consider this: would it be ok to do really good DPS (like 3k) on the named but do nothing else the rest of the time?  Of course not.  zone-wide parses show your contribution over the entire raid.  A lot of people parse better on certain fights than on a zone because they try really hard with all their good skills on those fights they like, but then they slack on everything else.  It also gives you a bad idea about DPS potential when you just look at best-case scenarios instead of how they perform overall.</P> <P>Now, if you have raiders who are working really hard, there's nothing wrong with looking at named fight parses, especially long ones.  It's useful information, but I don't think it's the most important information.</P><p>Message Edited by Xney on <span class=date_text>01-09-2007</span> <span class=time_text>11:18 PM</span>

[prochu]

<DIV>i dont like zonewide parses  because even if the best swas/assa/ranger/wizar of all serves if afk he wont be the first on parse when really he is the best dps.zonewide parses are usefull for guilds to see who is slaking but it isnt accurate to see dps of class .only if 24 members of the raid be 100 % and witouth afk will be acurate</DIV> <DIV>personally i dont mind parse of trash because u zone to instances to get loot of nameds not to killing trash so i want do dps with nameds not with trash and with nameds it is very very very hard and dont think that any assassin can do more dps that necros doing 100k with lifeburn or wizards doing 100k with manaburn(but wizards got oom so i dont mind if it is named but long fight)</DIV> <DIV>and about dps i dont know why cant we get better aas that upgrade our dps as 300 (now our aa give us around 100 dps)when other class have got upgrade as 1k dps with their aa or if soe wont want give us dps why cant we get utility aa so we can do the same dps that other class as swas or necro(only zonewide never single target) and have the sme utility that they</DIV> <DIV>the fact is that now we are tier 1 dps on zonewide but there are some class as swas or necros that are tie1 dps but have tier2 utility so i want have more utility or that soe nerf to necros or swas </DIV>

[Jvaloth]

<DIV>"Very few encounters in this game actually need tons of DPS"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is the most inaccurate statement you've ever made, and you've made many, Raina.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In the absolute perfect group assassins can "hold their own" aka  stay just ahead or equal to swashies, necros, rangers etc. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The whole complaint that continues to be repeated is that with zero utility, zero buffs,  zero debuffs, zero ability to solo, coupled with the absolute amount of work required to generate dps ( mob positioning/stealth requirements)  assassins should be upper echelon Tier 1 DPS.  Right now we are lower Tier1  or Tier 1.5 with zero utlity.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is unacceptable.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We have to wait 10 minutes to do a 14-27k dmg hit  (average 20k)  and necros can do  60-80k every 5 minutes...??</DIV> <DIV>Swashies turn offensive stance on, turn their hurricane buff on, then stand there with auto attack while spamming short buffs (which they got AA's to reduce their recast timers) and they absolutely own mobs.  They can do 2300-2500 every fight without breaking a sweat.  I've seen swashy do 3000 dps on a single target named...   You'd think swashies would be awesome at AE fights and assassins would be top dogs on single target mobs  ... wrong.  Swashy are top dogs on everything in every situation. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Again, this is unacceptable.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And again, I'm not asking SOE to nerf Swashies.  I don't want my guildies nerfed.   But assassins should be able to put up bigger numbers... or at the very least equal dps numbers and get some legitimate utility/buffs/debuffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(Group Noxious resists) ?</DIV> <DIV>(Group Apply Poison) ?</DIV> <DIV>(Group In Combat Run Speed) ?</DIV> <DIV>(Higher Agro Transfer %) ?</DIV> <DIV>(Higher Melee/Poison Crit %) ?</DIV> <DIV>(Increased proc % on offensive stance) ?</DIV> <DIV>(Poison proc on both weapons) ?</DIV> <DIV>(Reduced recast on Honed Reflexes/Deadly Focus and Increase duration) ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The list goes on of things they could improve to make us viable again.  I won't hold my breath but what they did with our AA's is a shame.  I played this character for 2 years, waited for this expansion only to have all my gear get nerfed and have nothing to look forward to between 50 and 100 AA's (essentially the entire expansion with no progression).   That bullsh!t. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Jvaloth on <span class=date_text>01-10-2007</span> <span class=time_text>06:19 AM</span>

[Outerspace]

<div><blockquote><hr>HellRaiserXX wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <p>Swashys parsing T1 DPS is an unbalanced thing, but honestly what can be done about it? Spend hours and hours and pages and pages complaining and whining and hoping SOE throws us a bone? [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] that, SOE doesn't intentionally throw bones.  You guys are unintentionally asking for one of two things: 1) Nerf Swashys so assassins can be #1 again or 2) Make assassins godlike so we can be #1 again.  </p><hr></blockquote>I don't follow that. If we need to be "godlike" to surpass a swashbuckler, then surely that makes the swashbuckler "godlike" already.Moorgard set out the DPS tiers. Swashbucklers and Necromancers are TIER 2 DPS and Assassins are TIER 1 DPS. However both of those T2 classes are out-DPS'ing ALL of the T1 classes with their I WIN buttons.Something there is not right and needs to be looked at.</div>

[HellRaiserXX]

<DIV>Lol so tell me why its inaccurate instead of just saying so. Its actually not.  For the majority of encounters in this game you dont need extreme amounts of DPS.  High DPS makes the fights a lot less hairy, but most are completely doable with less DPS.  This is actual DPS numbers not DPS classes. The biggest reason a guild cant beat an encounter is 90% of time they are not cohesive enough or do not have the necesary gear. Rarely is it a case of, if we had more DPS.  DPS makes encounters go smoother because its less time fighting, the longer an encounter takes the more chance there is of something bad happening.  Most encounters are about stability and raid cohesiveness. If you can achieve stability than pretty much any encounter can be won, regardless of the amount of DPS your raid is doing unless its obscenely low. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Zonewide parses are used to measure class strength.  If your guild is made up of good players with fairly equal gear who try hard on every fight than at the end of the zone you will a clear representation of which classes are strong and which need help and which are too strong.  KoS is a prime example.  Assassins were strong in KoS, other classes were not.  On a zonewide parse an assassin could be 3-400 DPS above the rest of the pack. That clearly shows some kind of imbalance. Assassins were not overpowered, but the other classes were underpowered, mainly the other 3 Tier 1 classes. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If any of you are as good as you say you are than you will not be "lower Tier 1". There is no upper or lower Tier 1 imo. The Tiers do not contain numbers, they contain classes. Tier 1 classes should always out perform Tier 2 classes and in turn Tier 2 out perform Tier 3.  Obviously that hasnt been the case in the past and still isnt, but its getting closer. Assassins are not the only Tier 1 class and therefore do not deserve anything that would place them above those other classes.  Swashys and Necros may be parsing at or above Tier 1 classes, but they are not Tier 1 classes.  The Tier 1 classes are pretty well balanced now and any change to one should also affect the others.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Id really like to see some parses put up showing assassins as being barely able to keep their head above water.  I havent seen one parse that says swashys are owning the world, Im just giving the people saying it the benefit of the doubt since I cant see it in my own guild, but I have seen nothing from anyone else that supports it. I have though seen lots that show assassins as being a competitive class and being able to perform strongly in the parse. I have been the most vocal in these debates and so people are going to take shots at me.  Prove me wrong.  Prove to me that assassins are in need of more than just more interesting AAs. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by HellRaiserXX on <span class=date_text>01-10-2007</span> <span class=time_text>08:55 AM</span>

[Jayad]

<P>If people are going AFK during raids, then they should be penalized for it.  There's no way 1 AFK is going to hurt your zone-wide parse on a long zone significantly.  People who are doing it a lot will be penalized, and of course, those who aren't trying hard all the time also get penalized.  It's another reason to like zone-wide parses: people who are going 100% all the time and always there are rewarded for their effort.  You can't just sleepwalk through a zone and get a high named parse and look uber.</P> <P>I guarantee you from my personal experience, the people who are actually trying hard show up a lot better on the zone parse.  The slackers, sleepwalkers, and AFKers are very obvious in it.  This is why it's good.  The difference between a 15k raid dps and a 20k raid dps on a large zone could be 20, 30 minutes.  That's valuable time you could raid other things, if you add them all up.</P> <P>Now, as far as not needing more dps in most fights, it's probably true.  Only a few encounters really require DPS to accomplish.  However, consider how many fights you wiped at where the mob was at 10% or 20%.  If you had 25% more dps, there's a good chance the mob would be dead instead of you being dead.  More dps = less dying, less time spent in raids to do the same thing.  Which is very good.</P>

[khufure]

1.)Zone = many data points1 fight or a few nameds = not many data points2.)When talking about statistics sample size is what matters.   Any kid in a 101 statistics class can tell you that.  That's why pools have ~5000 people.3.)Zone parses should show the raid dps over the zone and how the person is relative to that. An assassin doing 1500 dps with the rest of the raid doing 10k is doing a great job.  An assassin doing 1500 dps with the rest of the raid doing 22k zone is mediocre.4.)Don't kid yourself on single targets.  A lifeburn or manaburn caster will crush us on one fight.  How can you compete with an 80k+ hit in a 20s fight?<div></div>

[HellRaiserXX]

Right Xney.  The point I am trying to bring out by saying that is that even though a swashy may parse higher than an assassin, the extra DPS is just bonus in comparison to the utility they give. A raid is going to replace an assassin not because someone else is parsing higher unless its obvious that player isnt very good, but because they need the extra utility.  If the raid doesn't need the extra utility than trading a swashy for an assassin is really pointless, that added DPS isnt going to make a fight win or lose. A well set up raid should already have all the utility it needs for most fights and so the decision between a swashy and an assassin is just a toss up.  One is just as good as the other, the little bit of extra DPS isn't going to matter much in the long run.<p>Message Edited by HellRaiserXX on <span class=date_text>01-10-2007</span> <span class=time_text>11:59 AM</span>

[Gerdos]

<P>A couple of points need clearing up.</P> <P>Merkades parse/list is based on blood colusses from MMIS.  Remember, these guys have damage shields, so all ranged dps classes will have an advantage over melee dps based classes.   Dont use these encounters to reflect what's really happening.  This is 1 of the situational encounters favouring rangers/wizards/summoners and why rangers do very well in MMIS.  It's like comparing a fight against a mob with memwipe, requiring rangers to stay in melee range.  It limits their real dps potential, and why you cant use these encounters to reflect class dps breakdowns.  Its a situational thing. Vyemm, Tarinax are good examples ... or Venekor (not for the memwipe, but confined space), these fights are basically melee based and rangers are at a significant disadvantage over other dps classes.</P> <P>Moorgard NEVER outlined DPS tiers.  It was a forum poster that made that post/thread breaking down classes into different tiers based on the OP perception of dps.  Moorguard did respond to it but never confirmed the dps tiers, and people for the most part, took the OP tier class breakdown as gospal.   Moorgard later posted, regretting NOT clarrifying/denouncing  the tier dps breakdown from that thread, and stated that their were NO tier dps categories broken between classes.  To this day, it hasn't changed.  Their are NO DPS tiers.  All classes have a funtion/role and provide dps, just some classes are more dps heavy then others.</P> <P>Raina is right, there are very few encounters in game, requiring huge dps.   Strong dps helps for all encounters, but very few that require it to succeed.</P> <P>Group dynamics plays a signifant part to dps.  Group setups can affect up to 400-500 dps on a dps class on zonewide parses alone.   If swashies are beating assassins reguarly, it's not because of class unbalancing.   I suggest look into the group setups, CA/equipment setup or players skills.</P> <P>Zonewide parsings are very important.  They provide a very good guide on overall dps, balancing out encounters that favour 1 class over another.  They balance out classes that provide massive dps on some encounters while go missing on other encounters.   They also show players who are slacking, (could be from various reasons, from being AFK, to just not being very good).  Assassins and rangers, are the 2 classes that should end up on top on almost all zonewide parses.  The only real challenges come from a dps wizard (not manaburn) or a pet focused summoner (not lifeburn necro's).</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Outerspace]

<div><blockquote><hr>Gerdos wrote:<div></div> <p>Moorgard NEVER outlined DPS tiers.  It was a forum poster that made that post/thread breaking down classes into different tiers based on the OP perception of dps.  </p><hr></blockquote>Wrong.Moorgard was interviewed by eq2vault on their Ask SOE section and he said:<strong></strong><blockquote><hr><div></div><strong><font color="#fdf1be">Steve "Moorgard" Danuser:</font></strong> Without giving the precise DPS numbers we intend each class to have, I can list how the classes will relate to one another in damage output. There are basically five groupings that classes fall into, from highest amount of damage output to the lowest. First group: <ul><li>Wizard/Warlock </li><li>Assassin/Ranger</li></ul> Second group: <ul><li>Conjurer/Necromancer (using damage pet) </li><li>Brigand/Swashbuckler</li></ul> Third group: <ul><li>Coercer/Illusionist, Conjurer/Necromancer (using tank pet) </li><li>Troubador/Dirge </li><li>Bruiser/Monk </li></ul> Fourth group: <ul><li>Berserker/Shadowknight </li><li>Paladin/Guardian</li></ul> Fifth group: <ul><li>Fury/Warden </li><li>Defiler/Mystic </li><li>Inquisitor/Templar</li></ul> Keep in mind that these aren't absolutes. A Guardian who concentrates on damage output and upgrades his or her offensive abilities could surpass a Berserker who focuses on defensive capabilities. These are simply the general guidelines we're following where, all things being equal, the classes will be organized. The thing with class balance, though, is that all things are *never* equal. So much of the damage output of a class depends on how that class is played that it simply isn't possible for anyone to guarantee that a given class will always perform at a certain level under every circumstance. However, the above list should at least give players an idea of the direction our numbers will be taking.<hr></blockquote></div>

[t0gar]

IMO Tier DPS no longer holds true. T2 classes moved up to T1. Bruiser/Monk are more T2 instead of T3(usually dont have one in raid so correct me if I'm wrong there) and Pally/Zerker/SK certainly dont do the damage of a gaurdian...We are NOT T1.5 DPS. That's just silly. I get my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] handed to me as much as the next assassin, but I don't think we're anything below T1. The range has broadened a bit, but if you're really trying AND you have the right equipment, you can do fairly well overall.<div></div>

[Merkad]

<div></div>@Gerdos -  For the most part that is a valid arguement, though I am wondering if the Shadowknight spell that removes alot of damage shields affects this one, as we usually have a SK with us, and I have not heard the melee really complaining. I posted that one in particular because it was the one I had screenshotted for our guild conjuror because we have a friendly rivalry. I did give my zonewide dps (which was 1570, about ~3-400 higher than number 2). Honestly, no zone gives me any real trouble for being a Ranger except that annoying roost of the fluttering wing area/immediate zone in of chel'drak. I absolutely always range Vyemm and Tarinax. Most of the time I do melee Venekor rather than range, but not all the time (no one likes fighting the nefarious wonder, so usually I just try and see what I can do melee wise for a fight), I believe Skaer once posted a 2k dps parse on that fight, though some people did cast doubts on  that.Anyways, I apologize to the Assassins of this thread/board. I am not intending to derail your Assassin vs. Swashbuckler thread, just that guy up there with the negative Ranger comment quite annoys me.Merkades, 70th Ranger.Siege, Najena.minor edit. I should mention that the parse was not to compare me to Assassins, or casters (except my guildie), or other melee folk. Rather just showing what is possible for a Ranger. As well as to note that if it can be done there, it can be done most anywhere (baring resistances/room restrictions). Rangers are not quite the proverbial fat kid who gets chosen last.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Merkades on <span class=date_text>01-10-2007</span> <span class=time_text>08:08 PM</span>

[HazNpho]

I guess to better explain what I see and what drives me nuts is this 'balanced' a few people keep saying... Yeah if your talking Damage to Damage, but what guild/group/raid looks at damage only? As an example lets say we take buffs, debuffs, and DPS and roll it into a rough table.We give Assassin 1 point in buff, 2 points in debuff and 4 points in DPS.We give Swashy 3 points in buff, 3 points in debuff and 4 or 5 points in DPS.So basically the swashy has more buffs, more debuffs and equal to greater DPS... how's that balanced?I don't give a rats [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] if we get more in DPS, Buffs or Debuffs. I just want to be able to bring equal values to the guild/group/raid in some way or form. Thats what I think is busted, thats what I think needs to be fixed. I'm all for rangers getting what they do, I have nothing against them and I have no clue if they benefited or bombed from EoF AA's. But Assassin needs to be fixed. We are no longer DPS gods which we should be cause thats about all we really offer, we aren't even below bottom feeders for buffs, and debuffs are no better. We got the short end of the stick. Thats that. Sony needs to fix it one way or the other.I'd honestly like to see a list of End Game buffs/debuffs/DPS comparison of the classes and see who really is balanced. Far as I know we fall nowhere near the balance. We can't even solo. Yet they can?<div></div>

[Computer MAn]

<div><blockquote><hr>HazNpho wrote: We can't even solo. Yet they can?<div></div><hr></blockquote>Depends on what you are trying to solo I can solo Poets Palace, all of the lower part of Mistmoore Catacombs, anything solo, most of SOS it all depends on how you gear yourself and what poisons you use.</div>

[HellRaiserXX]

<P>You cant compare buffs/debuffs/or even DPS in most cases from class to class because each class is designed with a different purpose in mind.  Predators have no really useful debuffs, they are pure DPS,  rogues have more "utility" as it were and should do less DPS than predators (not always the case, but bear with me), and bards are the most utility and do the least DPS.  Only the classes in the defined "tiers" should have comparable DPS. From a Roleplaying standpoint it makes sense that a mage would be able to dabble in many things because of their knowledge of arcane arts.  In fantasy books, wizards could throw fireballs, but they could also usually heal wounds, cause disease and weakness (debuffs) and do a plethora of other things. Assassin characters you read about arent able to use spells in most cases.  They survive by their wits and sense of preservation, with some help coming from the magical items they possess. A wizard and assassin are completely different, but each are <U><STRONG>equally</STRONG></U> deadly in their own rights.</P> <P>to be able to solo as an assassin you need pretty good gear, as much miti as you can find and use certain poisons. There have been quite a few named who have beaten me, but I switched around my gear like added resists to mitigate their spells and then I won. Learn your enemies, learn what types of abilities they use, what spells they cast and adjust accordingly.  A melee heavy mob should be kited as much as possible, whereas a caster should be fought straight up to try to keep it stunned and stifled as much as possible.  Problem is most caster mobs also have brutal melee attacks lol. </P><p>Message Edited by HellRaiserXX on <span class=date_text>01-14-2007</span> <span class=time_text>10:42 PM</span>

[Forsaken Falc]

<P>hhhmmm hyprocritical comunity here ftw.</P> <P> </P> <P>ppl hate randomness but assassins raid dps is the most random [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] i'v seen.</P>

[Hadanelith]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Merkades wrote:<BR> <BR>As a side note, if they upped their dps (because I agree some classes are too low), chances are the shortened duration would have uppped mine as well. (also I am not the only parser, I just always keep mine running for missed postings).<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>It may or may not. Keep in mind, if each person on that list below you upped their DPS by a mere 75 points (I'm going to use a single-mob example for simplicity in calculation) over the duration of a 3-minute fight, that's (9 x 75) x 180 = 121,500 damage more being done by the rest of the raid. If their DPS goes up, the duration of the fight goes down... But, the number of hitpoints that YOU get to chip away also goes down! Therefore you wouldn't necessarily go up in DPS - in fact, you'd likely go DOWN in DPS from getting a few less 1-minute-recast CA's off (5-15 seconds left before their recast timers renew), but maintain your top slot.</P> <P>Mob HP is a pie-chart... There's only so much to be had, so if others do more DPS they're doing more damage, which means you're doing less damage-volume in the end.</P> <P> </P> <P>-Hadanelith Raswrolski of Kithicor</P>

[HazNpho]

I believe what Riana says about each is equally deadly, thats what a balance is about, but the Casters have easy buttons with LB, MB and IN, that needs to be changed, or at least give us something to compete with it. After all we can't root and nuke, and we sure as hell have no buffs or debuffs to compare with them.Swashies need to take a bit of a step back, they were stated to be T2, we shouldn't need to be working our [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] off to come to par with a T2 that doesn't need to work so hard. Or if we don't see a change there, give us some buffs and debuffs to bring to the raid.There have been several good ideas for fixing our AA's, but no dev's have said a word. I made a post about proc rate, it got answered by a coder, hell its even on the front page of eq2players.com as being addressed, same goes for Mr. Dawkins, his post about 100% resist has been addressed by the dev's as well. So why won't they look at our post on changing our AA's? Is it simply that sony does not care? EoF saw an increase in playerbase due to new content and new players comming, but they lost a fair amount as well. Some going to Vanguard, some going to WoW, hell I even know a few that went to L2. They need to take a step back on the new content to increase players and work on fixing problems they have existing to keep the players that they do have. It's like turnover at a company, you don't want to have a huge turnover, cause you lose your experience and the new employee's feel less inclined to stay around when the more experienced staff are leaving left, right and center.<div></div>

[Jayad]

<DIV>It's because addressing a bug or problem is one thing, class balance issues are another.  Class issues open a huge black hole of hate every time anything is done to improve or nerf a class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Of course, being that it's such an emotional issue, you'd think they would do a better job of getting it right the first time...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[HazNpho]

<div><blockquote><hr>Xney wrote:<div></div> <div>It's because addressing a bug or problem is one thing, class balance issues are another.  Class issues open a huge black hole of hate every time anything is done to improve or nerf a class.</div> <div> </div> <div>Of course, being that it's such an emotional issue, you'd think they would do a better job of getting it right the first time...</div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>When has sony ever done anything right the first time? Aside from attracting new players and losing old ones. Its an uphill battle for them. They focus purely on getting new players, while they ignore the fact that their turnover rate is through the roof.</div>

[judged_one]

Wow another Einstein moment brought to you by our local assassin.Here Exhibit AFor as long as I have played this game, no guild has wanted an assassin unless they didnt already have one.ery few encounters in this game actually need tons of DPS, you can afford to sacrifice some raid DPS for more utility in most if not all cases. (So DPS is not that important, so Assassin will be sitting on raid to have more utility)Here Exhibit BJust because assassins arent top of the parse all the time really doesn't mean that much in all honesty. (Wait so Assassin is not really DPS even)Here Exhibit CSwashys parsing T1 DPS is an unbalanced thing, but honestly what can be done about it?1) Nerf Swashys so assassins can be #1 again or 2) Make assassins godlike so we can be #1 again.(Ok so if swashy is doing more DPS and it is unbalanced, wouldn't it be logical to increase our DPS.)Here Exhibit DIf you took out all other DPS classes except predators, assassins should still only parse #1 50% of the time.(No beep Sherlock. Did anyone ask to be number 1 all the time. PEOPLE ARE SAYING SOLO MOB, which works out to be 50%. And Caster vs Melee is another discussion thread.)Here Exhibit Ehat I see so much is that people are unable to look beyong their class or if they do its only because someone else has something better. (See Exhibit A and B, Assassin will be replaced by more utility, Assassin currenlty is not the only T1 Class. So I guess you want us to look beyond our class and use out uber pathfinding and apply poison buff)Here Exhibit FWhat I see is a bunch of players who think they deserve to be #1 for no better reason than that they play an assassin.(Hmm didnt you state the reason in Exhibit A. Yea, people want #1 cause they want to be in a raid, not sitting and watch a raid. And unless we are pure #1 with Ranger, you are correct that I rather take a Necro that can do comparable DPS and pass out heart.)Here Exhibit GWake up people, sure things still arent completely balanced, but its a helluva lot closer. Assassins being #1 in KoS is just as big of an imbalancement as Swashys and necros parsing Tier 1 DPS in EoF. (Hmm Wake up, Kos Assassin was parsing as they should be. In a group fight a ranger and conjuror still beat Assassin. Assassin was good on KoS, if they fixed Ranger. And FYI Many Wizard was also doing great in KoS)gg.

[Criesi]

<DIV>Assassins are T1 dps and should be there (with Rangers, Wizzie, Warlock) all of these give up utility or armor protection to be a T1 class.  Assassins/Ranger wear chain but give up on utility options and wizzie/warlock can only wear cloth.  The reason Assassin/Ranger get to use chain is because they in theory have to get up close and personal (I know Ranger uses bow more), wizzie/warlock on the the other hand stay at range.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So if all of these are available to group/raid with - who are you going to invite??   Well Assassin would be 4th choice.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now if we look at T2 Swashie/Brigand - excellent DPS probably equivalent to T1 at the moment, lots of utility, hate transfer, FD, AoE, can use bow, can tank with taunts.  So add this to the group above and Swashie jumps to the top of the que and Assassin now moves to 5th.  I would never group with 2 assassins, no point - but having 2 swashies in group is ok 1 DPS, 1 tank, 2 DPS etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only way I can see us regaining some DPS without becoming to overpowered and unbalanced is just to reduce some of the longer CA's.  So we can trigger them more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes I am only a lvl 50 assassin but I will not be trading her in for a new class of the month, as I have never had so much fun with any of the other classes I have tried (which is all of them).  I also know that if you know how to play your assassin well, people will still look for you and invite you to groups.  I play the game for enjoyment and to feel I am involved and with some classes you dont get the involved part by being outside AoE with auto on and CA when you get back from making a coffee.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes we need a little (just a little) love as a class but not too much.  FD would be nice so you get FD just before a big AoE goes off and then back on your feet to continue your attack.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The problem with the game at the moment is that SOE are (in my opinion) are trying to make every class equal for the PvP players and not how the game was designed for PvE players.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Graton]

<div><blockquote><hr>Criesi wrote:<div>Assassins are T1 dps and should be there (with Rangers, Wizzie, Warlock) all of these give up utility or armor protection to be a T1 class.  Assassins/Ranger wear chain but give up on utility options and wizzie/warlock can only wear cloth.  The reason Assassin/Ranger get to use chain is because they in theory have to get up close and personal (I know Ranger uses bow more), wizzie/warlock on the the other hand stay at range.</div> <div> </div> <div>So if all of these are available to group/raid with - who are you going to invite??   Well Assassin would be 4th choice.</div> <div> </div> <div>Now if we look at T2 Swashie/Brigand - excellent DPS probably equivalent to T1 at the moment, lots of utility, hate transfer, FD, AoE, can use bow, can tank with taunts.  So add this to the group above and Swashie jumps to the top of the que and Assassin now moves to 5th.  I would never group with 2 assassins, no point - but having 2 swashies in group is ok 1 DPS, 1 tank, 2 DPS etc.</div> <div> </div> <div>The only way I can see us regaining some DPS without becoming to overpowered and unbalanced is just to reduce some of the longer CA's.  So we can trigger them more.</div> <div> </div> <div>Yes I am only a lvl 50 assassin but I will not be trading her in for a new class of the month, as I have never had so much fun with any of the other classes I have tried (which is all of them).  I also know that if you know how to play your assassin well, people will still look for you and invite you to groups.  I play the game for enjoyment and to feel I am involved and with some classes you dont get the involved part by being outside AoE with auto on and CA when you get back from making a coffee.</div> <div> </div> <div>Yes we need a little (just a little) love as a class but not too much.  FD would be nice so you get FD just before a big AoE goes off and then back on your feet to continue your attack.</div> <div> </div> <div>The problem with the game at the moment is that SOE are (in my opinion) are trying to make every class equal for the PvP players and not how the game was designed for PvE players.</div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>it's a been a long time since i was level 50 so i can't really speak for dmg there. i would imagine we struggle because we don't have concealment or finishing blow. at lvl 70 though warlocks are not superior dps to assassins. of the 4 original T1 dps classes they seem to be the weakest because of their aggro issues. necros in general are better zonewide than a warlock. warlocks have no more utility than rangers or assassins really so i don't see why they would be chosen over an assassin with the possible exception of a really aoe heavy zone like lyceum.the other 3 t1 dps classes, assassin/ranger/wizard are fine.FD doesn't block aoe's. besides we can joust out to avoid them while still using the bow so i don't see what the point would be. brig/swash can not use bows btw. i don't see how 2 assassins in a group is any different than 2 swashbucklers. one tanks the other does dps in both cases. the single taunt that rogues get is hardly life changing. one assassin transfers hate to the other and that one tanks. i've done crypt & obelisk with this setup, it's fine.yes our aa's are largely pointless but we were in a class nearly on our own before KoS and now we're still excellent dps just not as dominating as before.</div>

[Criesi]

<DIV>I do realise the FD doesnt block AoE, what I meant was it would be nice if we could get an AA line that did :smileyhappy:.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway thanks for the reply Graton and makes interesting reading - didnt realise swashie couldnt use bows, just assumed they did only played one to about 20 and didnt like.  They do have range capability though.  As for jousting I havent had the please yet but looking forward to the challenge.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am sure during the next 10 levels I will pick up a couple of new CAs but I wouldnt change my Assassin for any other class.</DIV>

[HazNpho]

I've stated it before and I'll say it again, sony doesn't care what we think or how we feel. They are making it easier for PvP players to own us, and botters to run their Wizzies up and make phat loot cause they don't need to group with people due to the nice root and nuke, which I thought was supposed to be fixed now.The only way we are going to get anything is to force sony to hear us. I've already taken to /bug and /petitioning every time I need to take a new EoF AA, which is a whole of 2 now. And the best response I have ever gotten was that it works fine and if I'm not happy with it to take another AA course... The problem is we are not like the other classes that have, as was said, obvious good choices and bad choices. We have to pick what isn't the worst choice. Thats poor planning on thier part, and they don't care that its poor planning. They don't care about the community as a whole, they just want to see an incline in new players, who cares that the old players are leaving, or the fact that alot of the new players signing up are plat sellers creating accounts to send out massive amounts of spam tells about buying from thier company.<div></div>

[t0gar]

My guild's swashy uses a bow. They don't have any abilities that can be used with one, but with their combat art timers they dont need to use it so it's just for joust/stats. Swashy = x3 better tank than assassin, but I hardly see the point of a scout tanking a zone(though there is 1 raid mob).<div></div>

[DresdenMalicaster]

<DIV>Pick up your game assassins, make them want you, crying on the forums isn't going to accomplish anything!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Show them you are worth that slot in their raid!</DIV>

[Jayad]

By selling our bodies?

[DresdenMalicaster]

That's one way

[khufure]

<div><blockquote><hr>DresdenMalicaster wrote:<div>Pick up your game assassins, make them want you, crying on the forums isn't going to accomplish anything!</div> <div> </div> <div>Show them you are worth that slot in their raid!</div><hr></blockquote>Hooray someone not [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing about swashy dps!The simple fact of the matter is Xney betrayed from a ranger in KOS to an assassin.  Historically, any class he has played is doomed to be nerfed endlessly.  I advise all you swashy wanna-be's to reroll.  We're doomed.P.S. can I have your stuff?</div>

[HazNpho]

Someone care to clearify how this made sticky? It was simply a post I made to try and figure something out, though I worded it wrong, I got my answer and it just went off topic. So how is this a sticky?<div></div>

[Jayad]

They want to avoid the stuff with actual information so nothing happens.

[t0gar]

Ummm, pretty sure this isn't a sticky... Get some sleep i think you need it.<div></div>

[HazNpho]

Yeah, oddly its only showing up as a sticky when I log in. I musta done something there. Any idea's of how to fix that?<div></div>

[HazNpho]

NVM, I figured it out, Disreguard my previous blather.<div></div>