How's this for disappointing

[HazNpho]

One of my guildies left shortly before EoF and was used to seeing my name parse 1 zone wide doing an XP grind or an instance. So he came back after EoF, hasn't grouped with me much as he's only a lvl 60 wiz and I have since made 68. He respeced his AA and is dominating the board and essentially laughing at me. I told him to create an assassin and see how hard I gotta work for DPS, he did, got him to lvl 40, and he's done with it, deleted the toon and [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed for 4 hours on TS about how much BS it is having to jump around and run behind mobs chasing down the best location in combat to get off his attacks. So he goes back to his wizzy and is sitting at a safe range dropping nukes on the mobs and laughing at me once again.Its not bad enough the Dev's slap us in the face, now anybody who has a Wizzy/Necro/Warlock/Conj/Swash/Brig are pretty much laughing cause of how hard we gotta work for 3rd spot on the parse <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I hate you SOE!<div></div>

[Kaiser Sigma]

<P><FONT face=Verdana size=2>What the revamp did was boost most (not all) of the other dps classes and leave us pretty much on the same spot. If you are now parsing like a Tier 3 dps it can only mean one thing: you always sucked as an assassin, now it's just made obvious. </FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana size=2>We no longer are the king of parses but we didn't lose our T1 dps either. We just have to work for it. Personally, I'm cool with that even though I believe our Assassin tree still needs some work.</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Kaiser Sigma on <span class=date_text>01-02-2007</span> <span class=time_text>03:16 PM</span>

[Nathdorl]

i totally agree to sigma... finally someone says it...its the same with monks by the way: most of the monks in these forums are complaining about their post-eof state because its easier to complain about stuff then to stick with it...monks are still overpowered concerning farming but now they gotta work for it... same with us...<p>Message Edited by Nathdorl on <span class=date_text>01-02-2007</span> <span class=time_text>07:51 PM</span>

[HazNpho]

<div></div>I actually found where my drop in DPS was, and it was in the jewelery not being of my tier, so thats going to be fixed, and I don't have my 60+ spells just yet as I went broke. But I'm saying he comes in as an assassin and quits because of how hard has to work to even hit the parse. Where as playing the Wizard he could just sit there and hit every nuke untill the mob was dead or he was out of power. Thats what erks me. He has Utility and DPS, and we have what... DPS and we gotta work our [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] off to keep up with them?<div></div><p>Message Edited by HazNpho on <span class=date_text>01-02-2007</span> <span class=time_text>11:01 AM</span>

[khufure]

<div><blockquote><hr>HazNpho wrote:<div></div>I actually found where my drop in DPS was, and it was in the jewelery not being of my tier, so thats going to be fixed, and I don't have my 60+ spells just yet as I went broke. But I'm saying he comes in as an assassin and quits because of how hard has to work to even hit the parse. Where as playing the Wizard he could just sit there and hit every nuke untill the mob was dead or he was out of power. Thats what erks me. He has Utility and DPS, and we have what... DPS and we gotta work our [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] off to keep up with them?<div></div><p>Message Edited by HazNpho on <span class="date_text">01-02-2007</span> <span class="time_text">11:01 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Assassins should crush wizards in instances.  If you have a tank with great aggro (e.g. amends on wizard or troubador) it may be close.  Chances are this won't happen though.  You need to look a a parser and figure out what you're doing wrong.Little hint: top 5 damageautoattack - crits, long delay weapon, long range weaponmarkcloaked assault (cloaked AE + damage over time)puncture (10s reuse cloak backstab)GM caustic poison</div>

[Mordacion]

<div></div>I don't see what the problem is with dps post-EoF. I'm still rocking pretty much any parse I'm no regardless of who else is in the group/raid. I've broken 3k a few fights and avgroughly 2k since my illusionist buddy got his double attack AA as well. DPSing isn't any harder if you know what you're doing. I can still break 1500 on auto pilot while in tells or watching the tv<div></div><p>Message Edited by Mordacion on <span class=date_text>01-02-2007</span> <span class=time_text>01:05 PM</span>

[HazNpho]

[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] give me your gear <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I'm not a heavy raider nor is my friend, so our gear is basic and such. But I can't pull 1.5k on auto, and still I have to work so a necro or wizard doesn't beat me out on DPS. Seems like pretty much every fight they uses fusion or LB or MB. How do you match that? I don't have decap yet and still probably wouldn't match them with the recast on that stupid thing.<div></div>

[HellRaiserXX]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nathdorl wrote:<BR>i totally agree to sigma... finally someone says it...<BR><BR>its the same with monks by the way: most of the monks in these forums are complaining about their post-eof state because its easier to complain about stuff then to stick with it...<BR><BR>monks are still overpowered concerning farming but now they gotta work for it... same with us... <P>Message Edited by Nathdorl on <SPAN class=date_text>01-02-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:51 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>lol Ive been saying this for forever. Definately nice to here it from other people. [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] Kaiser [Removed for Content] have you been, ive been waiting for you to add something to all this discussion about assassin AA and DPS. Finally omg.<p>Message Edited by HellRaiserXX on <span class=date_text>01-02-2007</span> <span class=time_text>04:27 PM</span>

[snack-machine]

While I would have loved to have seen better things come along in EOF for assassins (such as more useful AAs, etc), I parsed in the top 3 before EoF and I still parse in the top 3. If I'm in a group with a chanter I'm always #1 (unless it's a mob with like 3 creatures than I go to about 3rd or 4th). I am almost mastered out, but have mostly legandary gear (only 2 peices of fabled). Just from where I'm sitting......assassins are pretty fine where we are (course I guess it's always possible that all the other DPS my raids just suck...but I don't think so).

[Outerspace]

<div></div>Don't get me wrong, I am top of the parser all the time.My only issue is that our AA's dont actually do very much useful at all when compared with our competing classes that are not gear reliant (wiz/necro) but still got HUGE DPS boosts via AA. And ranger has the potential to have an insane DPS increase with the right bow and the double attack AA. Two classes got a 75k+ nuke on a 5 minute recast for christ's sake <span>:smileymad:</span>If you don't have relatively top end gear you'll get beaten on the parser by summoners all the time. I don't have exceptional gear but then I'm not competing with exceptional summoners.But I have flogged this one enough in other threads  <span>:smileyhappy:Group scenarios don't tell you much about the class. On a single target a wizzy can hit a 25k Ice Nova and the mob is basically dead so he beats you on the parser. Remember in many cases the numbers quoted on here are in perfect raid situations on heavily debuffed mobs with maxed DPS mod and Haste, as well as high critical hit chance.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Outerspace on <span class=date_text>01-02-2007</span> <span class=time_text>05:11 PM</span>

[Unwise]

<P>HazNpho, please let me get this straight, you have T6 jewelery and T6 spells and complaining that a low T7 tier 1 DPS class is outdamaging you? Are we to assume that the rest of your gear is less than stellar if you are too poor to afford spells? That would not bug me if it were not for the fact that you are blaming SOE for it. Take a look at yourself man.</P> <P>If Assassin's could do all their damage with range auto-attack so they never had to move or hit buttons, do you think you would stick with the class or get bored?</P> <P>Last I looked, Wizards were not exactly a utility class either.</P>

[khufure]

This thread is a bunch of people complaining.  If you are serious about improving post:1.) Your dps breakdown in a zone.  I don't care what zone it is, but if its 20m+ of combat it should be enough.  Actually just the pie chart graph that ACT has and total dps would be enough.2.) Your str3.) Group buffs3.) Your gear, including weapons and poisons.  If you don't wanna list it all just list the crit/proc/dps/haste gear.4.) Crit % of zone.Post it in a new thread and I will post a response detailing how you can improve.<div></div>

[HazNpho]

<div><blockquote><hr>Unwise wrote:<p>HazNpho, please let me get this straight, you have T6 jewelery and T6 spells and complaining that a low T7 tier 1 DPS class is outdamaging you? Are we to assume that the rest of your gear is less than stellar if you are too poor to afford spells? That would not bug me if it were not for the fact that you are blaming SOE for it. Take a look at yourself man.</p> <p>If Assassin's could do all their damage with range auto-attack so they never had to move or hit buttons, do you think you would stick with the class or get bored?</p> <p>Last I looked, Wizards were not exactly a utility class either.</p><hr></blockquote>I have half my gear as T7 legendary, other half is T7 player crafted. Jewelery is T7 player crafted and half T7 Legendary (only real end game I have ATM is the Cowl of the Villians). I have adept 1's up to lvl 68, adept 3's up to lvl 62 and 1 master. My friend has all his T6 spells like me but some are still adept 1, he has no masters, no legendary unless you count 2 T5 and 1 T6 peice of jewelery. He has all T6 mastercrafted for most of his gear aside from those 3 legendaries. And with his new AA's yes, he beats me zone wide. Mainly from manaburn. So no, I never said T6, if I did it was a typo, I just said that I don't have end game gear (aside from the cowl).</div>

[Gerdos]

<DIV>Lifeburn and Manaburn players relly on their AA to get this skill.   Not their CA's for damage, as such, its less important to them what rank their CAs are at.   Their focus is on building up their health or mana pools to omptimise their damage, anyway they can and timing their use.   On long fights, lifeburn necros are able to use lifeburn twice.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Assassins and rangers relly on their CA's and auto attacks for damage.   CA's making up the main portion of their damage base, while auto-attacks making up the single biggest damage contribution.   If you get a chance, study and compare the difference in dmg from Adept1, Adept3, and  Master1.   The increase in dmg for each version is big, especially for your big nuke CAs.   So, in a sense, just to compete against a lifeburn/manaburn player, predators (and other melee based classes) relly on improving most of their CAs and 2 great weapons.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Once most of your CAs are at master and you have 2 great weapons, you'll notice a significant difference in your dps.   Unfortunately, the way Lifeburn/Manburn functions, and their ease of use and quick availability .. <EM>will see all but the best equiped and skilled predators compete and beat</EM>.  I don't consider lifeburn necro's a true T1 dps class, even if their damage output reaches T1, even when capable of showing insanely high dps.  <EM><U>Lifeburn/manaburn damage is situational, and on zonewides it shows</U>.</EM>   A great predator and sorcerer (wizard) will always finish ahead on zonewide parsing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At least thats my experience, and i trust the people around me for their skill and twinked characters to reflect whats really happening.   I try not to let perceptions get in the way of facts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Gerdos on <span class=date_text>01-04-2007</span> <span class=time_text>07:09 AM</span>

[LoreLady]

Even adept 3 to master1 is ~15% CA dps boost.. Getting new weapons and understanding how high/low damages effect crits also help.. There is a reason that people consider the dirk of negetivity, or the grinning dirk of horror are some of the best weapons.. Is because of there really low damage, to the really high damage, the likelyhood that you are going to crit high is outweighed.. There is a long post in this stickied in the combat discussion..When it comes to mana/lifeburn I laugh soo many times because the necro/wizard in my guild usually time them wrong or do something wrong.. The necro is always the first naked on raids due to simple AE's lol <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Recca[BK]]

do we have a speadsheet that can confirm this 15% increase lorelady. go back to thr ranger forums.

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>Recca[BK] wrote:do we have a speadsheet that can confirm this 15% increase lorelady. go back to thr ranger forums.<hr></blockquote>Lol, this kind of attitude is more suited for a diffrent game.. I call it WoW, please leave the insaults elseware.. If you want to talk to me, talk to me in a manner that is non offensive and non aggresive. I dont recall throwing any insaults towards you in my post Recca, this kind of attitude is nothing more than trolling. If you wish to be in your own little world where no one disagree's with you I suggest you find yourself a diffrent reality because you will not find it in this one.Recca, everything I have said in the past I stand by it.. And I have checked out the increase between many assassin/ranger abilitys back when I was doing those spreadsheets to find out if there was a diffrent scaling system.. I did not use this figure as a hard number, just a rough average.. And in KoS days of upgrading CA's thats what it was, and in theroy, thats what it still is.One last thing - Recca, have you ever in your posting life said anything "constructive".</div>

[Recca[BK]]

pretty much everything youve ever posted with regards to dps has been a complete joke. you can crunch numbers all day long and whip out these amazing conclusions but they are always way off mark. just look at the other thread you recently posted. assassin utitly is "in your opinion" equal to swashie. that right there makes me discount 95% of anything you post. but i am glad you are back so i can have laughs when i get bored and read your wonderful new posts.

[LoreLady]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Recca[BK] wrote:pretty much everything youve ever posted with regards to dps has been a complete joke. you can crunch numbers all day long and whip out these amazing conclusions but they are always way off mark. just look at the other thread you recently posted. assassin utitly is "in your opinion" equal to swashie. that right there makes me discount 95% of anything you post. but i am glad you are back so i can have laughs when i get bored and read your wonderful new posts.<hr></blockquote>I said comparable.. - And if you want to discuss that post, put it on the same fourm.. I am not jumping fourms for the same post.And my data was conclusive, it accuratly showed the dps diffrence between rangers and assassins.. And in EoF it was corrected - why do you think rangers got alot in terms of damage and cast time in this expansion? And assassins got quicker dots? Its to correct that imballance.<b>And if your going to post like that, perhaps you may want to evaluate yourself alittle more before you go judging others.</b></div><p>Message Edited by LoreLady on <span class=date_text>01-05-2007</span> <span class=time_text>07:55 AM</span>

[Jayad]

<P>I refuse to take anybody who thinks assassin and swashy utility is comparable seriously. </P> <P><STRONG>com·pa·ra·ble</STRONG>   (kŏm'pər-ə-bəl)  <A href="http://cache.lexico.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html" target=_blank><FONT color=#568c1e size=2>Pronunciation Key</FONT></A>   <A href="https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fbrowse%2 FComparable" target=_blank><IMG src="http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif" border=0></A>  <IMG src="http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif" border=0><BR><!-- BOF_HEAD -->adj.  <!-- EOF_HEAD --><!-- BOF_DEF --></P> <OL> <LI>Admitting of comparison with another or others: <I>"The satellite revolution is comparable to Gutenberg's invention of movable type"</I> <I>(Irvin Molotsky).</I></LI> <LI>Similar or equivalent: <I>pianists of comparable ability.</I></LI></OL>

[Outerspace]

We didn't get quicker DoTs either.<div></div>

[Recca[BK]]

now i could be wrong but i didnt think rangers got anything changed according to cast times either. its been beta since i checked out the ranger AAs. but if you didnt get anything changed according to to cast times your entire last post was filled with misinfomation. (not terribly shocked though)

[Gerdos]

<P>My sig's comparable to Xney, non existant.  Recca's sig has no comparison, it just ownz.</P> <P>Rangers are now comparable to assassins, for dps.  Swashies are not comparable to assassins, for utility.</P> <P>Loreladys KoS CA % upgrade path are comparable to EoF CA upgrade path.  New Elysium is not comparable to old Elysium. </P> <P>... and Rangers did get improvements to cast timers for a few of their best CA's.</P> <P> </P>

[Mr. Dawki]

yup we work the hardest for our dps and we are not the top as we should be <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[HazNpho]

Here here!, Mr. Dawkins, for how much we work, we are not comparable to anything, no T1 class works this hard or forks out this much money, And if you say rangers... I'll slap SoE, they have a skill that creates arrows, and last time I spoke with my friend they were not limited to having one stack of said arrows. He just kept casting that spell in his free chances before, during and after groups/raids to make sure he never ran out. So they pay for poisons... I don't see us with a skill that makes poisons like they can do arrows... All in all, I completely refuse to say we are comparable to anything, and if you can come up with some class that is comparable to us, I'm sure myself or half this forum could point out holes in your argument.<div></div>

[Gerdos]

<DIV>*cough*  bullshizen  *cough*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let me enlighten you.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For a ranger to be comparable to an assassin for dps, we're required to use our melee CAs between our ranged CA/auto attacks, while trying to ensure ranged auto attack is constantly up (not easy when 30% of your attacks are melee based)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like assassins and rogues, we also require positioning (flank and rear) to use 4 CAs (2 big hitters, 1 medium hitter, 1 low hitter that stealths (required for other big hitters)) ... to optimise our dps</DIV> <DIV>Like assassins and rogues, we also require poisons and potions to optimise our dps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Unlike assassins and rogues, rangers main dps comes from ranged attacks, which requires arrows .. thousands and thousands of arrows per raid.</DIV> <DIV>Yes, rangers have a CA that produces arrows, Adept1=30. Adept3=45, Master1=60.   Recast timer = 10mins.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Arrow consumption per raid zone roughly amounts to the following:</DIV> <DIV>Chel'Drak and Clockwork Menace = 500-1000 arrows</DIV> <DIV>Lyceum, Labs and FTH =  2000-3000 arrows</DIV> <DIV>HoS, DT, MMIS =  3000-4000 arrows</DIV> <DIV>EH =  +5000 arrows</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rangers consume far more arrows then they can summon, so we're required to resupply from merchants, at almost 7g per stack.  Basically, that amounts to ~2-4p cost per highend raiding ranger, per week  .. 1-2p per week for casual raiding rangers.  These are costs, no other class in game endures and a reason why some rangers have left the game.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This cost can be be offset by the (rare) DT bows, which summon 99x legendary T8 arrows every 5mins which removes the arrow consumption problem.   However, to even compete with assassins dps, rangers still "require" T8 arrows for the bonus dmg, (a full tier ahead) and another T7 fabled LONGbow.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I agree, assassins are not comparable to rangers ... assassins are an easier class to play for skill and costs, somewhere between rangers and rogues.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>(remember, over 500 rangers gamewide betrayed to assassins during KoS ... i wonder why?)  :smileywink:</EM><BR></DIV>

[R2Chie]

    i would consider in a raid guild that we have talented players, our raid parses #1 spot generally switches betweenRanger / Assassin / Necro / Swashy - depending on group setup ofcoursemore often than not apart from when necro is life burning the top spot is between me and a talented ranger who plays his class well. So we have to work for top spot?? I would rather i had to do that than sit back and bash buttons, i like that i have to move around and find the right position in which i can make myself far more effective damage wise.Wizzie in short encounters can come out on top while mana burning ofcourse but i have been happy with the improvement in wizard dps since eof raid wise, i always felt bad that they're raid parsing was below average wise before eof which i feel is a bit more balanced now, they dont parse top but dish out enough to make it onto the top half of the parser atleast..ranting at this stage so will just stop, im happy none the less with our class and im in no way dissapointed. <div></div>

[Jayad]

I'm sorry, but the idea that Rangers require more skill or effort than an Assassin is untrue.  I raided for a year with a Ranger before the last 3 months after betraying to an Assassin.   I'd say the Ranger's need for arrows, rare bows, jousting in, and longer cast times is offset by the Assassin's higher requirements for positioning, stealth attacks, and AOE problems.  In my mind and experiences they are about the same overall.  Consider this: jousting IN is a lot different than jousting OUT.  In fact I think Rangers & Assassins are pretty well balanced, but there needs more arrow bows available in zones other than DT for them, and maybe a few other fabled somewhere.

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>Xney wrote:<div></div>I'm sorry, but the idea that Rangers require more skill or effort than an Assassin is untrue.  I raided for a year with a Ranger before the last 3 months after betraying to an Assassin.   I'd say the Ranger's need for arrows, rare bows, jousting in, and longer cast times is offset by the Assassin's higher requirements for positioning, stealth attacks, and AOE problems.  In my mind and experiences they are about the same overall.  Consider this: jousting IN is a lot different than jousting OUT.  In fact I think Rangers & Assassins are pretty well balanced, but there needs more arrow bows available in zones other than DT for them, and maybe a few other fabled somewhere.<hr></blockquote>Its all in opinion, although I have less playtime on an assassin than you Xney.. I am under the impression that the skill level required between the two classes is fairly equal.. The hardest thing someone who has never played a ranger to do is get the positioning right on the size of the mob. The only real diffrence in skill level, is its harder for an assassin to get an effective AE out than a ranger.. Getting lost in a mash of mobs is a good thing when your AEing, getting hit from a mob you dont know who your getting hit from (and neither does the tank) - makes life alot harder if theres a single mob in the group after you - other than the one your on.. But rangers need to time there CA's to keep there ranged auto attack going...And this is exactly why im glad that there are diffrent situations on the two classes that dont make our two classes cookie cutters in skill.</div>

[Outerspace]

But at the end of the day it's just pressing buttons on a keyboard and mouse.<div></div>

[LoreLady]

Push buttons? I just palm bash, makes things more fun <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Or better yet.. Turning the keyboard into a WII controller and bashing it over the desk thinking im play baseball <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Jayad]

<P>Yes, I agree they require very similar amounts of skill.  IMO, the assassin requires slightly more because of the positioning factor and the jousting is a little more challenging.  It's offset, though, by the Rangers long casting times & the rare bow/arrow issue, in my mind.  I think assassins & rangers are actually balanced well at this point.  The assassins need some AA tweaks and the Rangers need their arrow/bow problem solved.</P> <P>Actually the biggest factor with Rangers is the tanks need to position mobs well.  If your raid MT doesn't turn the mob it's a huge PITA.  Not as big of a deal with assassins, but on the other hand assassins need to be directly behind and in melee range which is a small amount of space.  On a fight with a lot of mobs dying fast it always feels like you're spending the whole time running around. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[HellRaiserXX]

Assassins have only 2 CAs that require rear arc. Spitting Asp (ranged) and Crippling Strike, all other positional abilities can be flanking. Its pretty easy to find the flank. I think the hardest part about playing an assassin is figuring out an order of CAs that will maximize DPS on any fight.  You cant just mash your CAs as a predator and hope to do good DPS. Positioning only becomes hard for me when someone takes aggro or the tank is being bounced a lot and the mob is constantly changing positions. 

[DresdenMalicaster]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> HazNpho wrote:<BR>One of my guildies left shortly before EoF and was used to seeing my name parse 1 zone wide doing an XP grind or an instance. So he came back after EoF, hasn't grouped with me much as he's only a lvl 60 wiz and I have since made 68. He respeced his AA and is dominating the board and essentially laughing at me. I told him to create an assassin and see how hard I gotta work for DPS, he did, got him to lvl 40, and he's done with it, deleted the toon and [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed for 4 hours on TS about how much BS it is having to jump around and run behind mobs chasing down the best location in combat to get off his attacks. So he goes back to his wizzy and is sitting at a safe range dropping nukes on the mobs and laughing at me once again.<BR><BR>Its not bad enough the Dev's slap us in the face, now anybody who has a Wizzy/Necro/Warlock/Conj/Swash/Brig are pretty much laughing cause of how hard we gotta work for 3rd spot on the parse <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I hate you SOE!<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Sorry, but the only caster I've EVER seen beat me on the parse is a Necro when he's used Lifeburn.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Someone said it already, but I think it's nigh-time you looked at how well you play your class.</DIV>

[Kimira]

assassin wii would be AMAZING that's all i really saw in this thread :

[HazNpho]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>DresdenMalicaster wrote:<div> <blockquote> <hr> HazNpho wrote:One of my guildies left shortly before EoF and was used to seeing my name parse 1 zone wide doing an XP grind or an instance. So he came back after EoF, hasn't grouped with me much as he's only a lvl 60 wiz and I have since made 68. He respeced his AA and is dominating the board and essentially laughing at me. I told him to create an assassin and see how hard I gotta work for DPS, he did, got him to lvl 40, and he's done with it, deleted the toon and [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed for 4 hours on TS about how much BS it is having to jump around and run behind mobs chasing down the best location in combat to get off his attacks. So he goes back to his wizzy and is sitting at a safe range dropping nukes on the mobs and laughing at me once again.Its not bad enough the Dev's slap us in the face, now anybody who has a Wizzy/Necro/Warlock/Conj/Swash/Brig are pretty much laughing cause of how hard we gotta work for 3rd spot on the parse <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I hate you SOE! <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>Sorry, but the only caster I've EVER seen beat me on the parse is a Necro when he's used Lifeburn.</div> <div> </div> <div>Someone said it already, but I think it's nigh-time you looked at how well you play your class.</div><hr></blockquote>Thats just it, he is using LB, and as for how I play my class. If I up my DPS anymore I'm toast cause the mob jumps me, yeah I get to drop hate transfer on the MT, but we have a pally with amends on the Necro so he can go full out and beat my parse without thought of agro to him. If he hits to hard the mob jumps to the pally and its no big problem for the group. But now I bring less to the table then these other so called T1 DPS with their T1/2 Utility.I guess the simplest way to put it, our tank sucks cause he can't keep agro very well, and due to it, I suck. So I bring nothing else to the group to compare with the other classes that have our DPS or better and better utility.<div></div><p>Message Edited by HazNpho on <span class=date_text>01-12-2007</span> <span class=time_text>01:19 PM</span>

[DresdenMalicaster]

<DIV>lol since when do necros need aggro reducers</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Check your role son~</DIV>

[HazNpho]

If you mean agro anchor... thats once again the problem of my tank, because I can't do alot of damage without agro switching on me the necro needs the amends. I've tried to get amends on me but it really destorys the group. And even still it makes the agro so unstable with bouncing from MT to pally to me that the necro dies once or twice and DPS is still borked, we never had this problem before EoF, but since he got his new AA's we have really had to change out our style.Maybe its time I find a new MT that actually can keep agro. But still, a necro shouldn't be hitting so hard that the style needed to change that much.I don't know, maybe I'll just stop grouping with these guys and go with the other groups I have.<div></div>

[HazNpho]

I gotta stop posting after a night at the bar, its our necro beating me out most of the time. I don't even think we have a wizard.<div></div>

[DresdenMalicaster]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> HazNpho wrote:<BR>If you mean agro anchor... thats once again the problem of my tank, because I can't do alot of damage without agro switching on me the necro needs the amends. I've tried to get amends on me but it really destorys the group. And even still it makes the agro so unstable with bouncing from MT to pally to me that the necro dies once or twice and DPS is still borked, we never had this problem before EoF, but since he got his new AA's we have really had to change out our style.<BR><BR>Maybe its time I find a new MT that actually can keep agro. But still, a necro shouldn't be hitting so hard that the style needed to change that much.<BR><BR>I don't know, maybe I'll just stop grouping with these guys and go with the other groups I have.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Necros beat you every three minutes or what ever the Lifeburn timer is.</P> <P>Big deal~</P>

[Mr. Dawki]

<P>i shall correct myself</P> <P>i dont play a ranger and never will</P> <P>but i do hear you when you say that you rangers also work hard for your dps</P> <P>so i will say this</P> <P>PRDITORS ( the original subclass of rangers and assassins) work the hardest for our dps and we are getting the shaft</P> <P>if a ranger should beat me in a parse then i need to work harder, if a swashy brig, or enchanter does something is realy wrong</P> <P>no other class must cordinate when to be invis while flanking/behind a mob where the smallest ae will lay ruin to our whole dps strat that will then have to be compinsated by quickly switching to a different strat</P> <P>as a caster or rouge you only have to mindlessly click buttons in a certain order, if you are interupted your spell casts over again if your a rouge you have TWO backstabs ONE of which is from invis</P> <P>preditors main dps comes from a VERY FRAGILE state of invis, thus it would make sence that we should be top of the parse </P> <P>HANDS DOWN!</P>

[HazNpho]

Thanks yoyo, that came out better then I was able to put it.The problem I have is that we simply don't get it that easy, assassins have to work hard for our DPS no matter what, and if we get beat by a necro with his easy button, or swashies with their improved DPS/Buffs/Debuffs, people say we are slacking... Then there is something wrong here, if we have to work harder to beat a class that hits the 'Staples Easy Button' (yeah I think of that commercial each time I see LifeBurn go off) just to match par with them, something needs to be fixed. I'm not saying to make us gods, but for [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] sake, give us a little more in terms of DPS, 60 points on front load? My grandmother [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]s more damage then that.<div></div>

[Hadanelith]

<DIV>I dont' see what all the fuss is about...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's really not that hard to do what you're supposed to do as an Assassin. The only totally uncontrollable things that goof me up are lag and "ability failure," e.g. Concealment issues. And honestly, when lag is present, who ISN'T affected?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The single largest thing that affects my DPS - mind you this is on raids - is whether or not I'm grouped with the right people, and have the right buffs. Our raid's DPS tends to fall a little low due to missing classes (and thus missing debuffs), but most of the time I'm 1st or 2nd on the overall parse for the night even if some particular battles put me at or under 3rd-place. Usually I'm in the top 3 of any given named battle as well; same goes for trash with rare exceptions, like those super-easy Deathtoll Heroic groups. The AoE's have them dead before I can even get in position =p I've stopped trying altogether on those encounters.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is going to seem really harsh, but if EoF lowered your POSITION on the parse (not your damage numbers, that's an entirely different thing), one of three things is probably true:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <OL> <LI>Your group sucks... for an Assassin. Your Haste is barely above self-buffed values (read: 50 Haste or less), you're getting little-to-no Hate Control or Procs from the group, or there's so many melee in the group that the buffs are given to others and you're left out in the rain. (Yes, this happens - it's called Poor Group Planning >_&lt<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></LI> <LI>Your tank sucks. You have to hold back because they can't hold aggro worth a crap (this may be related to no Hate Control from your group, or not), and/or the tank doesn't "swing" / "turn" mobs and you have to play Find the Backside like a doctor trying to give a prostate exam to a half-ton man.</LI> <LI>The debuffs suck. The group or raid you're in has Magic Resistance debuffs out the yin-yang but nary a Physical debuff to be had.</LI> <LI>Barring all else... you suck. Sorry.</LI></OL> <P>Immediately after EoF everyone saw drops in their DPS numbers due to the combat revamp, the global nerfing of abilities and stats, etc... but most anyone who really knew how to play their class stayed in the same parse-position or swapped with someone who was already a close contestant with them. After a week or two things pretty much evened out. If you havent' adjusted to the changes... well. You've got a long road ahead of you.</P> <P> </P> <P>-Hadanelith Raswrolski of Kithicor</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>EDIT: I see a lot about this Necro you're with and his Lifeburn. A Necro in our Guild has Lifeburn (heck, probly every Necro in existance with enough AA's has Lifeburn), and if he's throwing it around like nothing then frankly your Raid Leaders need to be slapped, the Necro needs to be slapped, and everyone else allowing this to go on needs to be slapped. It's a high-damage, high-aggro ability much like Decapitate with the added "benefit" that it sucks the life out of the caster, making him VERY susceptible to death. Depending on the encounter, the Necro will or won't beat my DPS using Lifeburn (mostly has to do with how many pets he got from Undead Tide and how long his pets are staying up), but regardless, he has to be far more careful with that ability than we or almost any other class has to be with any other ability. If the Necro ISN'T being careful with it and the raid's saying that's A-OK... ewwe. You need some restructuring.</P><p>Message Edited by Hadanelith on <span class=date_text>01-15-2007</span> <span class=time_text>04:37 PM</span>

[Jayad]

<P>Or..</P> <P>5.  Your swashies, necros, wizards, and warlocks suck so you're confused.</P> <P>There was nothing to relearn for assassins for EOF, or hardly any classes, just new AAs coming out.  If assassins are so great, why do we buff AGI and swashies buff STR?  Why would haste going over 100 be good?  Like uncorking a bottle for the right classes.</P><p>Message Edited by Xney on <span class=date_text>01-15-2007</span> <span class=time_text>04:20 PM</span>

[Hadanelith]

<P>In case you hadn't caught on to this, Xney, Haste and DPS are no longer directly percentage-based in EoF.</P> <P>From 0-100 Haste/DPS Score, it pretty much relates to a % one-for-one. (I've actually found cases where 1 in score gives more than 1% effective haste, ie, a 5 Haste Score = 6% Attack Speed increase. Found that on my low-level Monk.) However, from there on out, you're on a Diminishing Returns Curve... which, if you linearize it, is 1% per 4 Haste / DPS Points. (A 200 Score = 125% increase; this was posted by devs and in patch notes some time ago.) If you're at 50 or less Haste, chance are you're barely buffed for Haste at all, as there are plenty of Haste items out there that give 18-25 on their own - you should have more than 50 in an Assassin-friendly group.</P> <P>Given this, your GOAL in any group is to shoot for 100 Haste, 100 DPS - this is no different than pre-EoF. Now,however, there is an added bonus for going over 100 Haste/DPS score although it is, in relativity, marginal.</P> <P>Warlocks face even worse hate-control issues than we Assassins, so while they definately CAN outparse Assassins (and often do on trash encounters of 4+ mobs, on 3 mobs it goes back and forth), they often opt to play it a bit safer on named encounters where one bad aggro can get the raid wiped. This changes if they are given EXTREME aggro control, ie put in-group with a Troub AND getting Amends. I can't speak much for Swashies. In two different guilds with entirely different raid configurations and raid philosophies, I haven't met a single person that can outparse me on a consistant basis. The Necros, Wiz, Warl, Swash, Ranger... whatever... they'll overshoot me now and then when certain abilities are down, or when I die, or when Concealment screws up, but the rest of the time they either 100-200 DPS behind me, or all of the Top 5 parsers (myself included) fall within a 150 DPS range. IE, #1 is 1600 and #5 is 1450.</P> <P>I maintain the point that if you're getting the right buffs, the tank is good, the physical debuffs are there, and you know how to play your Assassin as well as other classes in the raid... You'll be in the top 3 consistantly, if not #1, and any differences will be marginal. Just because you parse #3 doesn't mean you're T3 DPS - if all 3 Top Parsers are in the 1400-1600 range <EM>in your raid</EM>, and the next few are 1100-1300, and it goes down from there... you're still Tier1 in your raid.</P> <P> </P> <P>-Hadanelith Raswrolski of Kithicor</P><p>Message Edited by Hadanelith on <span class=date_text>01-15-2007</span> <span class=time_text>04:55 PM</span>

[Jayad]

Uhm.  I don't know where to begin, but how about that haste items don't stack?

[Hadanelith]

<DIV>Let me spell it out then.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a Raiding T7 Assassin, you best <A href="mailto:d@mn" target=_blank>d@mn</A> well have a 20% or better Haste item. Now even a Monk or Troub, alone, will put you very near 50%, but unless you're getting an ILU's Haste (which will take you from 23% to 90% or better), you really need to have at least 2 Haste buffs to have a respectable percent.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That's why I said "in an <EM>Assassin-friendly group</EM>."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm just gonna stop there before this turns into a flame. Forums are for reading - please read.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Hadanelith Raswrolski of Kithicor</DIV>

[Jayad]

<P>lol.  You act like I don't already know all this.   I believe it's more important to have STR buffs (up to about 850) and a dirge than getting to 50% haste.  If you are in a troubie group then I really worry for you.  25% more haste isn't going to do very much compared to +250 str.  I'd take +250 str over 100 haste any day of the week, especially if it meant also having a dirge.  It was true back when STR cap was so easy to hit that haste was uber, but until we're all sitting at 850 raid-buffed, it's not the case now.  Auto-attack, including procs, is probably less than 30% of any assassin's DPS.  So, in order for haste to be more important, it has to be 3x better than a STR improvement, because it only affects 1/3 of our dps.  I don't think this happens until the 800s.  (Same is true with INT vs STR)  Crits are also better because they affect most of our dps as well.  </P> <P>Now, you can talk about an assassin-friendly group, but like many I'm stuck in the MT group.  Just don't have that 5th utility class being a coercer on most of the time.  Since I get a dirge that way, it's alright, certainly not the best case, but how many people have the optimum group most of the time?   </P>

[Salat]

<DIV>Hadanelith says <EM>"I see a lot about this Necro you're with and his Lifeburn. A Necro in our Guild has Lifeburn (heck, probly every Necro in existance with enough AA's has Lifeburn), and if he's throwing it around like nothing then frankly your Raid Leaders need to be slapped, the Necro needs to be slapped, and everyone else allowing this to go on needs to be slapped. It's a high-damage, high-aggro ability much like Decapitate with the added "benefit" that it sucks the life out of the caster, making him VERY susceptible to death. Depending on the encounter, the Necro will or won't beat my DPS using Lifeburn (mostly has to do with how many pets he got from Undead Tide and how long his pets are staying up), but regardless, he has to be far more careful with that ability than we or almost any other class has to be with any other ability. If the Necro ISN'T being careful with it and the raid's saying that's A-OK... ewwe. You need some restructuring</EM>."  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please, if your going to talk about LB, please research it, instead of just assuming something off a necro in a guild that doesnt know how to optimize LB.  On the normal trash mobs it hits for around 3K to 10K.  On debuffed names with loads of HP, Necro buffed with Bolster, sta buffs, and HoT there is necros after the 5 ticks go off, doing 100K damage.  Now keep in mind, that LB and FD have the same reuse timer.  So FD is always up when LB is.  So, while it sucks the life out of them.  Gee, the HoT on them and one direct heal, has them back at full in seconds after FD.  As long as you position the necro when LB goes off, in a spot that isnt pulling the mob out of the melees range when it goes off, then he can go LB happy.  He FDs, and its right back on tank.  Add in two Necros to your raid force, they have to wait 30 seconds after the other uses LB before they can.  With 3 necros in the raid force, all 3 coordinating with each other for when to use each LB, and its almost gets comical.   </DIV>

[HazNpho]

Once again another abuse of a skill, FD to kill agro and they easily out DPS us. Once again, this is that easy button I was refering to. How do we compare to something like that? We need to be in melee range so we can't just wait for the agro to switch and hope to god the tank gets it off. No, we take to much agro and it turns on us and in 1-4 shots from a mob and we are kissing our [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good bye, along with our DPS.The dev's really overpowered the Necro's this time. And once again, we get no response from them saying they are going to change it or anything. They just ignore it. This rant has been going on since EoF launched, and it'll probably continue on till the next expansion, we will be lucky if we see it fixed then. This is why people are leaving. They boast that they had all these new people come in, but alot of those people won't stick around long if their older player base starts leaving. On my server I know about 5 guilds that can no longer raid because so many members have left and they can't get a full force to do a raid anymore. Its a trend that will likely continue till there is nothing left to play.They are happy that most of the new T7 content has yet to be touched raid wise... I wonder why when most T7 raid guilds are losing members like flies.<div></div>

[whytakemine]

<DIV>Working for your dps = good.  Do you really want to play a class that takes no skill?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have never played a wizard, warlock, necro, or swashie (well I played a swashie up to level 25ish), so I have no idea if they have to work more or less than I do to do good dps.  I THINK they are a little easier to play than a predator, but I can't say that without firsthand knowledge now can I?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can say for a fact that no class has an easy button, unless the vast majority of that class for some reason can't find said easy button.  Go on a pickup raid and check out the variation in dps between people of the same class (MOA4 raids are great for this).  Why is necro#1 doing 700 dps and necro#2 doing 2k if they have an easy button?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And if you are having aggro issues as an assassin, something is seriously wrong.  Are your detaunts/aggro transfer/concealment all at least adept 3?  Maybe it is your tank, but I'd start looking at your spells and the order you use them if you're really having that much of a problem.  </DIV>

[jumpmaster12]

I am a raid tank and fully fabled but lack what most consider the best weapon for us GDOH and still I own most parse lists. It's all about timing

[HazNpho]

<blockquote><hr>whytakemine wrote:<div>Working for your dps = good.  Do you really want to play a class that takes no skill?</div> <div> </div> <div>I have never played a wizard, warlock, necro, or swashie (well I played a swashie up to level 25ish), so I have no idea if they have to work more or less than I do to do good dps.  I THINK they are a little easier to play than a predator, but I can't say that without firsthand knowledge now can I?</div> <div> </div> <div>I can say for a fact that no class has an easy button, unless the vast majority of that class for some reason can't find said easy button.  Go on a pickup raid and check out the variation in dps between people of the same class (MOA4 raids are great for this).  Why is necro#1 doing 700 dps and necro#2 doing 2k if they have an easy button?</div> <div> </div> <div>And if you are having aggro issues as an assassin, something is seriously wrong.  Are your detaunts/aggro transfer/concealment all at least adept 3?  Maybe it is your tank, but I'd start looking at your spells and the order you use them if you're really having that much of a problem.  </div><hr></blockquote>Yes, all of mine are at Adept 3 or greater, and it is the tank that holds me back in agro, I am able to get better DPS with some of the other groups I run along, but that still doesn't change the fact that a T2 DPS class with some utilty and buffs and more debuffs then us, can match us for DPS, and with the last group I did where I didn't have to worry about agro, he does equal or better DPS then me, and I'm doing about 500 more DPS then I was a few levels ago, at least he is when he uses LB, and with 2 healers in the group he uses it alot.No matter what you say, a T2 DPS, which is what a necro is and should be, should not have a 80k CA thats on a lower timer then our best hitting CA, which is only 20k.<div></div>

[HazNpho]

Once again, dev's prove my point, they don't like us. http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=achievements&message.id=6213&jump=trueThe outcome of our problems with AA ends up with a nerf threat. And I'm not the only one that saw it that way. Guess they really do want us to just shut up and die quietly.<div></div>

[DresdenMalicaster]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> HazNpho wrote:<BR>Once again, dev's prove my point, they don't like us. http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=achievements&message.id=6213&jump=true<BR>The outcome of our problems with AA ends up with a nerf threat. And I'm not the only one that saw it that way. Guess they really do want us to just shut up and die quietly.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Shut up and play a different class.</P> <P>You give a bad name to all the people that define themselves by playing an assassin.</P>

[LoreLady]

Inotherwords - hes saying your dps is fine.

[HazNpho]

<div></div>Except for the fact that the thread wasn't really about DPS, though I'm sure alot of people would disagree that its not fine. It was about our "Craptastic AA's" (As was so lovely stated by others.) Read a bit more and you'll see alot of people saying it was not about DPS, but AA's and just kinda led there.Personally I can't say much as my DPS just jumped significantly since I changed to a different MT. So I still gotta relearn the best ways of timing attacks now that  I  can finally go full bore on damage from the start of the fight without being laid to rest.<div></div><p>Message Edited by HazNpho on <span class=date_text>01-19-2007</span> <span class=time_text>02:42 PM</span>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>HazNpho wrote:<div></div>Except for the fact that the thread wasn't really about DPS, though I'm sure alot of people would disagree that its not fine. It was about our "Craptastic AA's" (As was so lovely stated by others.) Read a bit more and you'll see alot of people saying it was not about DPS, but AA's and just kinda led there.Personally I can't say much as my DPS just jumped significantly since I changed to a different MT. So I still gotta relearn the best ways of timing attacks now that  I  can finally go full bore on damage from the start of the fight without being laid to rest.<div></div><p>Message Edited by HazNpho on <span class="date_text">01-19-2007</span> <span class="time_text">02:42 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Which I understand, but if your dps is fine the way it is... You cant add more dps aa's.. You cant add utility, otherwise that takes away from your dps if you look at a util vs dps perspective.. And thats why people get all fired up, they dont understand those concepts, or refuse to understand.</div>

[HazNpho]

<div></div>My DPS isn't fine, per say... I'm averaging about 1.5-1.7k the swashie is still doing better (at least untill I learn to make use of the new leeway I have in damage output with a new tank), but our AA's still suck. The one that I'd really like to see is allowing us to get a non agro pull, it makes no sense that a templar can get it while us... The 'Kings' of solo, can't.And with our limited to no utility and swashies still parsing even close to us, thats where the DPS complaint came in.<div></div><p>Message Edited by HazNpho on <span class=date_text>01-19-2007</span> <span class=time_text>04:06 PM</span>

[Jayad]

<P>Obviously you can't have more utility with our dps, but a swashy can have our dps with their utility.  Makes perfect sense to me!</P>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>Xney wrote:<div></div> <p>Obviously you can't have more utility with our dps, but a swashy can have our dps with their utility.  Makes perfect sense to me!</p><hr></blockquote>Show me some zonewides please.</div>

[Jayad]

<P>Ranger1 1872.99</P> <P>Me(assassin) 1771.06</P> <P>Swashy1 1750.79</P> <P>Ranger2 1332.51</P> <P>Wiz1 1324.54</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Xney on <span class=date_text>01-20-2007</span> <span class=time_text>10:31 AM</span>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>Xney wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <p>Ranger1 1872.99</p> <p>Me(assassin) 1771.06</p> <p>Swashy1 1750.79</p> <p>Ranger2 1332.51</p> <p>Wiz1 1324.54</p> <p>Message Edited by Xney on <span class="date_text">01-20-2007</span> <span class="time_text">10:31 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Could I please get the zone??</div>

[Jayad]

I believe it was MMIS.  There's also a bunch of parses posted in the AA thread.  FYI we were missing our top warlock and wizard and I think had no troubie for this one, but decent melee buffs.  Also missing our 2nd best ranger and other good assassin.  They would have been about the same as the top 3.<p>Message Edited by Xney on <span class=date_text>01-21-2007</span> <span class=time_text>09:57 AM</span>

[whytakemine]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> HazNpho wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> whytakemine wrote:<BR> <DIV>Working for your dps = good.  Do you really want to play a class that takes no skill?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have never played a wizard, warlock, necro, or swashie (well I played a swashie up to level 25ish), so I have no idea if they have to work more or less than I do to do good dps.  I THINK they are a little easier to play than a predator, but I can't say that without firsthand knowledge now can I?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can say for a fact that no class has an easy button, unless the vast majority of that class for some reason can't find said easy button.  Go on a pickup raid and check out the variation in dps between people of the same class (MOA4 raids are great for this).  Why is necro#1 doing 700 dps and necro#2 doing 2k if they have an easy button?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And if you are having aggro issues as an assassin, something is seriously wrong.  Are your detaunts/aggro transfer/concealment all at least adept 3?  Maybe it is your tank, but I'd start looking at your spells and the order you use them if you're really having that much of a problem.  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, all of mine are at Adept 3 or greater, and it is the tank that holds me back in agro, I am able to get better DPS with some of the other groups I run along, but that still doesn't change the fact that <STRONG>a T2 DPS class with some utilty and buffs and more debuffs then us, can match us for DPS</STRONG>, and with the last group I did where I didn't have to worry about agro, he does equal or better DPS then me, and I'm doing about 500 more DPS then I was a few levels ago, at least he is when he uses LB, and with 2 healers in the group he uses it alot.<BR><BR><STRONG>No matter what you say, a T2 DPS, which is what a necro is and should be, should not have a 80k CA thats on a lower timer then our best hitting CA, which is only 20k.<BR></STRONG><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I have never said T2 classes should be dps'ing as well as us, and I couldn't agree more that they shouldn't.  I even got into an argument about it over on the necro boards before I realized most of the necro's are just as biased and incapable of logical thought as most assassins (and all other forum posters).</P> <P>My post wasn't directed at everything being talked about in this thread, just two things:</P> <P>1.  No class has an easy button, and even if they did playing a class that takes skill is more fun anyway</P> <P>2.  Suggestions on improving your aggro control.</P> <P>The bottom line on the dps issue is that SOE harvests a bunch of data on how the dps classes parse in encounters of various sizes and difficulties.  If they see something they think is a problem, then they re-balance it.  What we say on the boards has such a slight chance of affecting anything I'm really just pretty tired of the whole debate.</P> <P>I mean look at it from their point of view - they have a bunch of hard data they know is accurate.  Would you trust what a bunch of biased players claim about their class or other classes?  </P> <P>The problem as I see it is that necro's do well on long fights (epic's) and swashies do well when pulling fast (because they have faster re-cast timers than us).  So in the kind of fights we are interested in doing well, these two classes have some natural advantages.  However, if you take a random instance group where even the named fights last 20s or less necro's don't parse very high.  If you take a random group where the tank pulls pretty slow, our timers are up more often and we have an edge on the swashies.  BUT if you take a good raid force that pulls fast and is fighting tougher mobs, the necro's and swashies do very well, and these are the fights we focus on because they're important to us.  At the same time SOE is probably seeing that in general swashies and necro's are right where they want them.</P> <P>All my opinion and I reserve the right to be wrong about any or all of it. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[HazNpho]

I honestly think SoE is viewing this as only how they stack in DPS, they aren't considering the fact that these classes have some - alot of utility. I've always had a problem with the way companies 'balance' classes. Horizons was no better, I played an ElAr (Elemental Archer) Which was overpowered because we could root and kill from a distance, 1 hit by the mob spelt death for us. So how did they fix the problem... They made the mobs able to hit you from a further distance then our ranged attacks could hit. So that class was now useless... I see the same thing happening to Assassins. They are slowly moving us out of the line for a class that has more to offer. We are taking a back seat on a raid to Utility classes that do equal to greater DPS then us. Its like sony wants to phase us out. We make a post requesting some better AA's and it ends up with a nerf threat, a 'Hallmonitor' telling us to watch our language and thats it. Not a word since. Sounds like sony just wants us to shut up and crawl into a corner and die alone. 'Balance' is something sony knows nothing about. As others have said, T2 DPS is the class of the expansion, we will see less assassins willing to play their class and more swashies flooding the servers. This is the most I've seen it out of balance since Pre LU13. At least in my opinion.<div></div>

[Salat]

<P>Lorelady posted, "<EM>Inotherwords - hes saying your dps is fine</EM>."<BR><BR></P> <P>Really now?  I would of guessed he was saying to becareful, or they would actually look at server wide parses to determine the damage being done.</P> <P>Which also tells me, that they havent looked at such parses, or else they wouldnt be threatening to look at them.</P><p>Message Edited by Salat on <span class=date_text>01-24-2007</span> <span class=time_text>02:46 AM</span>

[Kokus]

<p>I wish they would look at them.. The problem with those server wide parses is that I don't think they are considering the high ends of each classes.  Just averages.</p><p>If they average every t7 swashy's dps i'd assume it wouldn't be extraordinary, but if they average all the 100 aa swashies I think the results would be staggering compared to other melee classes.</p><p> While with assassins, we don't get such an incredible boost from our AAs, so it makes something like a simple server wide parse somewhat misleading.  The whole reason of that post with that dev was saying,"Hey! look at our AA's, and look at the other classes! what were you thinking?' but instead the dev thinks that since Assassins are on such and such level, everything is fine, which is obviously not the case.</p>

[LordAzure]

i keep seeing assassins post i have no utiliy.... well guess what, i can slow a mob, stun them, lower the wis and resis, i use these small vials with red, blue or purple fluids in them, THIS is my utility. now SOE make better poisons , thank you.

[HellRaiserXX]

<p>most of assassin utility can be equaled or surpassed by another class, some of which can also compete in the DPS department as well. We have utility but no raid is going to bring in an assassin for utility purposes unless you actually need the hate xfer, they want the DPS first. Half of what you listed doesnt affect epics and the other half can be done by other classes like I said.  I think most people who want utility want something unique to assassins.  I personally prefer having little or no utility, less to keep track of.</p>

[Kaiser Sigma]

<cite>LordAzure wrote:</cite><blockquote>i keep seeing assassins post i have no utiliy.... well guess what, i can slow a mob, stun them, lower the wis and resis, i use these small vials with red, blue or purple fluids in them, THIS is my utility. now SOE make better poisons , thank you.</blockquote><p>Lolz...you realize both rogues and predators alike can use those "small vials with red, blue or purple fluids in them, THAT is your utility" right? Predators shouldn't get utility, if you want utility roll a bard. </p>

[Hadanelith]

Krymson@Unrest wrote: <blockquote>i keep seeing assassins post i have no utiliy.... well guess what, i can slow a mob, stun them, lower the wis and resis, i use these small vials with red, blue or purple fluids in them, THIS is my utility. now SOE make better poisons , thank you.</blockquote><p> I know this thread has gotten a bit old now, but I really don't frequent the boards often specifically because of ignorant posts like that above.</p><p>Krymson - Guess what? Swashies get those same Poisons, as do Brigs and Rangers. Which means... you have to look at our CA's, buffs, and AAs to determine utility, in which case Swashies have a hundred times more than us.</p><p>Now one thing that I'd like to point out on the DPS front for Assassins is that ignorant raid leaders hurt us as much or more than Devs and system-wide nerfs. I know of a raidleader who really doesn't care how his DPS'ers are buffed, because his philosophy is that "DPS is easy to do and I expect you to be doing it all the time." He's revered as a great raidleader because he focuses on tactics, yet ignores the most basic mechanics to optimize his raids.</p><p> /sigh.</p><p> That was a digression and sidetrack from the thread but I thought I should point that out while we're throwing snowballs about things that screw us over.</p><p>-Hadanelith Raswrolski of Kithicor</p>