Study on Assassin DPS post EoF using zonewide parses [Archive]

Malaqai

12-31-2006, 05:59 AM

<div></div><div></div>Emm... numbers bore me...And to be honest, I'm not putting much into my zone parse cos it's skewed since EoF zones bring so much death. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I'm usually in the off tank group, if we have one... Zerker, illusionits main buffs mostly... Or rarely in mage grp with illu, troub buffing....Pre-EoF I was 1st on parse... 300-400 DPS ahead of anyone else, we were sorta melee oriantated DPS wise, for a long time casters didn't have a troub. Post-EoF, hasn't changed much yet, though everyone's creeping closer. (only recently got a necro though, not as geared out as most are) Rangers, swashies getting closer...Mages especially. (on single targets I topped like 95% of the parses... now dropped a bit, but still at least 70-80% - numbers are a bit random, but think they're pretty much correct). Most notably, wizzy's coming up, she usually parsed top-3, but definately closing the gap.Zone wide, let's say I don't die... Anywhere from 1.5 k in harder zones (lots of AOEs to be jousted etc) to 2k in the starter KoS ones - though again, mobs like Corsolander and that silly eyeball bring it down even in Labs.... Villucidae's something else, stances bring me down to like 1k... Killing Blade 13 K one sec, then next sec Decap parried. Annoying.That's pretty much it, in a nutshell... I can post some zone parses later to like...verify and stuff.And to say something nice except whining about our [Removed for Content] AAs and broken Surveillance.. My DPS DID get highet cos I leech haste and double attack of the illu alone. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Adorments and stuff help a bit, proc earrings instead of resist ones etc... But I pretty much depend on the illu being in my grp if I wanna see any significant change to my DPS pre-EOF.EDIT: I know most people favour Zone Wide Parse and that's cool.. And I rarely slack off anyway, so I don't have an issue with it. But thrash's going down anyway, the real deal are the nameds, especially the hard ones... IMO anyway...<div></div><p>Message Edited by Malaqai on <span class="date_text">12-30-2006</span> <span class="time_text">05:07 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Malaqai on <span class=date_text>12-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:18 PM</span>

Skratttt

12-31-2006, 06:11 AM

<DIV>Lol i notice the same...in pre EoF raid zones i can max out arround 1700 zonewide/1600 zonewide (either trouby-caster grouped...or illusionist/fighter group)....in EoF zones Like Freethinkers i was running round 2300 ZW (173% haste!) till we hit the 2nd namer (yah the fun starts there hehe)...this without using god spells....why the diference...no idea maybe more single target in Freethinkers VS most KoS raid zones (HoS another zone where AW parse is awesome)...</DIV>

HellRaiserXX

12-31-2006, 06:34 AM

<P>What I am hoping is that it will alleviate some of the frustration I keep hearing concerning our AAs. Yes other classes got better AAs and stuff, but I think it isnt near as bad as it is being made out to be. Right now we are experiencing the same frustration that Rangers experienced when the proc changes went into effect. We are used to be undeniably #1 and now all of a sudden we have to really work to keep that position if at all. Everyone talks about class balance or lack thereof and I think the way things went in EoF were done to balance things. Warlocks received a big to make them more competitive for top spot on the parse. Rangers also got a boost to make them even more of a match to us. Wizards got a decent boost to bring them up a bit higher as well. Now that obviously doesnt explain why swashys and necros and even enchanters are going so high when according to the tier system from LU13 they should not be, which I personally think is the real problem. </P> <P>In a balanced system the tier 1 DPS classes should always be in the top positions. In a raid consisting of all 24 classes it should follow the DPS tier system introduced in LU13 with Predators and Sorcerors in the top 4 positions and so on down. Other classes are getting up into that tier which technically shouldnt happen, but it does. The point is in KoS assassins did DPS that was quite a bit above all the other classes. Now as I watch the parses all the "tier 1" DPS classes are doing roughly the same and there is a lot more competition for top spot on the parse. Assassins should not be solely #1, they should always be at or near the top, but not always #1 if the tier system holds true. It is skewed somewhat with necros and swashys especially being able to parse tier 1 DPS and that needs to be addressed by SOE, but as far as the actual tier 1 DPS classes go it seems pretty even from my own guilds parses and Im curious to see if it holds true for others. If it does than what SOE did may have actually brought the classes into closer balance than everyone thinks. I don't feel I am no longer doing Tier 1 DPS, but that now more classes are actually doing Tier 1 DPS. If it is fairly even across the original Tier 1 classes, than if SOE gives us the 400 or so DPS increase people are calling for than it will unbalance things again. As long as we are still doing Tier 1 DPS than not parsing #1 all the time isn't that big a deal, but if it turns out we are in fact doing tier 2 or less than it is a big problem and definately needs to be addressed.</P>

t0gar

12-31-2006, 02:11 PM

<div></div>Don't have any numbers but I can tell you a little story that might shed some light.After playing this game for so long and doing the same boring labs runs over and over and over and over and... well you get the point... the guild swashy and I switched characters. We're about equally geared and he has slightly more masters. My first time ever touching a swashy btw so I had to take the few hints he gave me(basically button mash while keeping on debuffs) and we set off to raid labs. Besides the strangeness of seeing my character from another perspective... the experience was quite enlightening about class balance for me. In the group I normally have on my assassin I'd parse on average 1.2-1.6k(ish) spiking over 2k sometimes when I got off decap on a short fight. Now before you say that's insanely low I'm in a casual raiding guild with usually only 3-4 people parsing over 1k at a given encounter. And pre-EoF usually the swashy or I was on top in melee friendly zones. Put in the same group while playing the swashy I was easily parsing 1.4-2.2k on average(yes that's a bit of a spike but like i said first time touching the class). Besides the fact that it tells you how much easier it is to be a swashy, it also displays the potential to parse much higher. His weapons were slightly better and he had more masters then me, but does that justify a T2 DPS character being able to outparse a T1? Especially when the T2 picked up the character 5 minutes before the raid with no experience and the T1 was played for a good number of months.Same group setup I usually had with same overall raid setup so that factoring in was minimal. On normal raids he will be put in the MT group for hate while i get put in the mage/fury/illus group and he still ends up parsing only 1-200 under me. He's a good swashy, but apparently so am I after 10 minutes of practice.<b><u>My conclusion:</u></b> DPS class tiers are a joke.<div></div>

Jvaloth

12-31-2006, 07:45 PM

<P> </P> <P>Raina, no other class in this game works harder for their DPS than an assasin.. no one. Yet, with all of the Assassin's limitations (lack of buffs, lack of debuffs, lack of utility, inability to solo) etc etc, we are now Tier 2 dps...</P> <P> </P> <P>You have a swashy that gets 40-50% of their dps by standing there autoattacking with their uber auto AE stance, poisons, inspiration, 200% haste and a ton of short buffs on fast recast timers.... add in their ability to debuff the crap out of mobs and solo and something doesnt make sense. Swashies are perceived as an AE scout, yet they can parse 2k+ on single target mobs consistantly..... Its freaking ridiculous.</P> <P> </P> <P>Before EoF came out I was basically tied with the Swashy in my guild. We would go back and forth as #1 by 50-100 DPS or so raid wide. Now I'm losing every raid wide parse by 200-500. I'm winning maybe 3-5 fights the entire raid. I'm going all out and getting completely destroyed on parses when before we were equals. Its very frustrating... Its made me want to switch to my Illusionist full time to be honest. Atleast I can do decent DPS with him and have a ton of utility/versatility with ALOT less work.</P> <P> </P> <P>And I just spend about 30 minutes compiling all my raid wide parses Pre EoF and Post EoF and when I went to submit post I got some error message from server and came back to a blank message! haha God I'm [Removed for Content]!!:smileymad:</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

Satie

12-31-2006, 08:38 PM

Thats the precise reason why i like being an assassin. You get the rush out of button mashing like the other melee classes, but you are also forced to make a choice depending on lenght of fight, rate of pulls, recast timers etc. and well, how many classes do you see out there chasing the mob all over and circling around like a clueless chicken lol? /raises handOnce upon a time all this was 'justified' by having assassinate, killing blade, good auto attack damage. . . remember the times when people would uncheck it on parsers becuase it was 'unfair'? or someone would say that your parse doesnt count because you used assassinate? Now days you can hardly notice the diff with decap exept on trash. . . all our back stabs in general have scaled really bad while retaining longest recasts in game. . . and still waiting on an answer why swipe sucks so bad. At the same time you see everyone else getting improvements in one form or another like procs, double attack, upgrades to primary abilities and what not.Not really trying to make a point lol, just thinking out loud early in the morning <span>:smileyvery-happy:Satinah/Salinah</span><div></div>

HellRaiserXX

01-01-2007, 03:18 AM

<DIV>I dont know about swashy DPS since we dont have a swashy in my guild atm that really competes, the good one is on extended leave, but as for the other classes Im not seeing to much of a difference between me and them. Assassin DPS is all technique, to parse high as an assassin you really have to understand the class and work hard at it, which is why I love this class so much. I completely disagree that assassins are now tier 2 DPS, we are still Tier 1 and always were Tier 1, just now there are a lot more classes up in our Tier. That is why I want to do these parse tests to really try to see what the real picture is. What the new AAs did for other classes is make it much easier for them to achieve our level of DPS and possibly even higher, but I still am very unconvinced that its as bad as people are saying. If anything it means that we have to become even better and thats never a bad thing. In DoF I had no respect for rangers because even though they parsed high many had really no skill and when KoS hit it brought all that into the open. The good rangers who knew what they were doing could still compete fairly well. So if you are getting creamed now its probably a sign you need to change some things up and if not than this parse data will show it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes we have no utility but that is how it has always been. Before EoF I was being sat for brigs and swashys on key fights all the time because they needed the utility of the classes more than my DPS and those classes could still do decent DPS. I see no danger of us being replaced anytime soon unless it is for something needed. I dont think the game has changed that much to warrant such drastic changes to raid makeup. We still have our place and it will always be tentative when faced with needing some extra utility, but for the most part encounters in this game are not overly challenging once you get the hang of them and rarely is there need for a very specific raid makeup. </DIV> <P>So even if you dont agree or dont care or whatever, Id still like it if you could try to post those parses. If anything it will do the testing for SOE and if there is a problem they have numbers to go by, since thats generally how they operate--very little happens without the playerbase discovering it and reporting it first.</P><p>Message Edited by HellRaiserXX on <span class=date_text>12-31-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:22 PM</span>

Gerdos

01-01-2007, 05:16 AM

<DIV>How many players/assassins have enough understanding on how DPS mechanics can be affected by group setups, weapon combinations, buffs ... to make a balanced judgement call on DPS? Knowing with certainity what kind of effect to DPS having class ABC or XYZ will have on you and what 1 weapon has over another . Not many, but, lets take an optimistic view, and say 10% of players/assassins have that kind of knowledge.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, from that 10%, how many can honestly make a fair comparison against other DPS classes, based on an equal playing field. That is, that the other players in your guild who play the different DPS classes are excellent players and are equally matched for CA upgrades, equipment upgrades. Not many again, even taking an optimistic view, its maybe only half. So, at best, there might only be 5% of assassins who are in a position to know and understand the breakdown of DPS between the various DPS classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm fortunate to be in a strong raiding guild, that has excellent players for their classes, all playing at an optimal level, min. 90% fully mastered. and all kitted out with great equipment. The 1 class i cant comment on is Conjurer's. We also have a (90k) manaburn and (75k) lifeburn specced wizard/necro alongside the pure dps specced wizard/necro. In addition, we have a large membership base in guild, who aren't as good as our core raiders, who aren't as well equiped as our core raiders and who's skill base range from good to poor, so i can also see firsthand how normal players compare. However, for this discussion, i'm focused on classes played by the best players, and equiped at the highest level and from my personal experience, i can reguarly and accurately see firsthand the breakdown of dps between the DPS classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Assassins, were the undisputed leading DPS class in KoS. FotM. Not to the same level rangers were back in DoF, but enough to unbalance DPS class balancing. Hard to pinpoint an exact % how much better they were, but i would say somewhere between 15-20% better. What made them stand out more, was just how easily and quickly their high DPS was achieved over rangers. Regardless, assassins were the DPS title holders in KoS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, with EOF .. things have changed. The new AA trees have had an impact .. the question is, by how much?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think assassins who think they have a mandate to dominate DPS reguarly are kidding themselves. Assassins who think they should have their new AA trees setup to improve their DPS in equal proportion to the new AA trees that other DPS classes recieved aren't taking a realistic view. Assassins were not nerfed with EoF, they are improved. The key difference being, other classes have improved more ... and so they should have been.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What i'm now reguarly seeing, is that no 1 dps class dominates DPS now. Rangers, are now on par with assassins for dps. Pure specced wizards are as strong as ever and at the same level. Manaburn and lifeburn wizards/nencro's are having an impact on certain encounters throwing up huge dps numbers .. but these are situational, once every few minutes, every 2nd or 3rd fight. On loooooong fights, they are limited ... and there are many long fights in EoF now .. so there at a slight disadvantage over the pure dps specced wizard/necro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rogues, (swashies in particular) got a lot of love, and they parse great, but there not at the same level as predators. Nor are they capable of sustaining high dps every fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Over all the zones, when all our core raiders are on, and all going hard ... the results i'm seeing is this:</DIV> <DIV>Rangers, assassins are topping DPS on ~30% each over all encounters. That's ~60% of all encounters.</DIV> <DIV>The remaining 40% of all encounters is broken down between the other classes, lifeburn necro, manaburn wizard, dps wizard, warlocks and pet based summoners. Zerkers and swashies, although parsing great, wont top dps except on very rare occassions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some zones are more friendly to certain classes over others .. and there will be set encounters that will shift favouritism from 1 class to another.</DIV> <DIV>FTH is assassin friendly. MMIS and EH is ranger friendly. Labs, DT and Clockwork/Chel'Drak is mage friendly (although not to any significant advantage). Lyceum and HoS is a free for all, but the classes that are AE strong, will always do well (warlocks, rangers, zerkers, swashies, summoners with mage pets).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, on zonewides, i see assassins and rangers finishing top 2 in almost all situations. The pure dps wizard coming 3rd .. and occassionaly mixed in with top 2. Lifeburn Necro's are next. Summoners next. Manaburn Wizards after that. Rogues and zerkers next.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's an unrealistic expectation from assassins to think they should top parses almost all the time, like they were in KOS. Other classes needed some love, which they now have got. A great assassin, is still a great assassin, and are parsing better now then ever before .. and can still hold their heads high. Like (some) rangers did, they need to learn to adapt to the changes from 1 expansion to the next. Assassins can no longer think they just need to show up to top the parse .. they have to work as hard as rangers now to earn their place as joint dps title holders.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally, i think SOE have finally got the balance right. I love the competition between the dps classes .. its fierce, and if you pride yourself on your dps, then you'll need to reguarly work to maintain it . Just dont expect things to be like they were in KoS. The game is better for the new changes. It will also sort out the great players from the good players .. which i'm all for.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Gerdos on <span class=date_text>01-01-2007</span> <span class=time_text>10:27 AM</span>

Computer MAn

01-01-2007, 05:28 AM

<div><blockquote><hr>Gerdos wrote:<div></div> <div></div><div>Personally, i think SOE have finally got the balance right. I love the competition between the dps classes .. its fierce, and if you pride yourself on your dps, then you'll need to reguarly work to maintain it . Just dont expect things to be like they were in KoS. The game is better for the new changes. It will also sort out the great players from the good players .. which i'm all for.</div> <hr>Those lines right there pretty much covered exactly what I feel about our EOF DPS. I could win a zone parse without even trying in KOS I could slack on a lot of mobs and still win out. Now I actually have to try if I want to win a zone parse and I pride myself on being able to win parses even with underpowered AA's. I was never big into the whole manaburn/lifeburn thing as if you think about it 75k damage is very minimal on a zone parse. Sure they will throw up some huge parses every 5-10 mins but after a wizard manaburns they have no power and more often than not a necro will end up dieing from their lifeburn if the mob has any sort of AE or damage shield. Rangers can compete now (they could before but had to have the perfect gear) which is fine we are afterall the same subclass. I lose some parses I win a lot of parses and for once it seems that their isn't one clear cut DPS champion.</blockquote></div>

t0gar

01-01-2007, 07:06 AM

<div></div>I agree we were probably too powerful with KoS. Once I got a decent understanding of how to raid with my class I'd never zone-wide parse under the top 3 unless it was a caster/AoE biased zone. Or I spent half the raid ninja'd.<span>:smileywink:</span>My point made was that a swashy with no combat experience but decent gear can go toe to toe with an atleast decent assassin with slightly less masters and equivalent(sp?) gear. Same group setup so like previously stated that was minimal obviously classes play different so I can't say it was non-existant. If you consider that class balance then surely us parsing on the top constantly was class balance as well. Throw in the swashy debuffs and the balance is shifted even a little more. They have a bit of positional attacks as well so positioning doesn't upset anything. This just isn't what I'd call balance. DPS should be based off time, practice, gear, and knowledge... not gear and CA spamming, inspirationg clicking ability.I don't have any wizard or summoner competition so I can't comment on the balance with them. It's too early into EoF for me to comment on the balance with Rangers, though I do think it's a step forward for them. Warlocks is too early as well.Anyways...I'll just shutup till we some actual parses out there.<div></div>

Jvaloth

01-01-2007, 07:09 AM

<DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>"It's an unrealistic expectation from assassins to think they should top parses almost all the time, like they were in KOS. Other classes needed some love, which they now have got. A great assassin, is still a great assassin, and are parsing better now then ever before .. and can still hold their heads high. Like (some) rangers did, they need to learn to adapt to the changes from 1 expansion to the next. Assassins can no longer think they just need to show up to top the parse .. they have to work as hard as rangers now to earn their place as joint dps title holders.</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM>Personally, i think SOE have finally got the balance right. I love the competition between the dps classes .. its fierce, and if you pride yourself on your dps, then you'll need to reguarly work to maintain it . Just dont expect things to be like they were in KoS. The game is better for the new changes. It will also sort out the great players from the good players .. which i'm all for."</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM>First, let me say that I am both the guild leader and raid leader of my guild. I know all about group makes ups to maximize DPS and the importance of gear and spell quality. My assassin is fully fabled, fully mastered (100%). I've got 90 AA's at the moment. I've been playing this game since day one and have seen the ebb and flow of the classes. To me, we had finally reached our rightful place in the DPS hierchy... </EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM> I'm curious...</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM>Why is it unrealistic to expect assassins to be top melee dps in the game? We do nothing but DPS. We have nothing else to offer at all. No debuffs that swashies/brigands have, zero utility, and the amount of work that goes into generating DPS as an assassin is unmatched by any other class. You cannot possibly tell me its "fair" that rogues w/ their utility and their debuffs are capable of consistantly beating out all other classes in the game, by their own admission with 40-50% auto attack + short buffs, a permanent AE stance, and can maintain 200% haste cap.... </EM></DIV> <DIV><EM> </EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM>Theres a phrase from EQ 1 the devs used to throw around alot... "Risk versus Reward". </EM></DIV> <DIV><EM>Well I say that this same phrase could be slightly modified to relate to EQ 2 DPS. "Effort versus Reward". </EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM>The amount of effort (positional requirements, stealth requirements, long recast timers on big hits etc. etc.) that the assassin must put forth is no longer justifying the reward when compared to the "Effort versus Reward" of other classes.</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM>Sure, when an assassin holds their own on a parse now, that means you are extremely skilled, the elite, and the stars must be aligned. Because there are now 5-6 other classes that can and SHOULD be beating assassins with minimal effort. If you are parsing #1 on every fight post EoF, I bid you to take a hard look at your competition and ask them what they are doing wrong because I've seen a MASSIVE spike in rogue DPS and other classes aswell where as my own numbers have not gone up in any substantial way with 90 AA's spent.</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM>I don't go from #1 to #5 on parses overnight because I forgot how to play my class... Nor did 4-5 other people in my guild instantly wake up and have learned how to play their class. The common denominator coincides with the release of EoF.</EM> As they gained AA's, I lost positions in the nightly parse. People I was beating by 200-400 are now beating me by 200-400. People I was going back and forth parsing against every night are now beating me by 400-1000 dps on any given fight...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I too take pride in my DPS and my skill as a player. But that is no longer enough to keep me at the top of the parses and that is what I'm upset about. That we got completely screwed in EoF.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV>

HellRaiserXX

01-01-2007, 08:28 AM

<DIV>OMG Gerdos where the hell have you been all my life!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We cant expect to be #1 for one simple reason: SOE has declared that there is different Tiers of DPS and there are several classes within those tiers. They are a little skewed, but they are far closer now than they have ever been. Rangers, Wizards, and Warlocks should be competing with assassins for top spot, we should lose to them on occassion and on any given night there should be different players in the topspot. Jvaloth I feel your frustration man, but all I can say is that there is always room for improvement and it sounds like there may be some work ahead of you. Just think how good you will feel when you retake your top spot. I dont want any changes that make it easier for me to parse high, I love the challenge of having to work to get to the top and when I am the top it is way more satisfying. Once the parses start coming in we will be able to see this even more. There is going to be a big variety and it will be painfully obvious if you have some catching up to do, but there are plenty of people willing to help and I hope that doesnt deter anyone. It is a mark of the good players to be able to adapt new changes and this is what we are going to have to do. Now where does this leave our AAs? Unfortunately, like I have been saying, too much extra DPS is going to unbalance the Tiers again. It would be cool if they could somehow work more utility in, but since we have very few abilities that are utility there isnt too much more to give. With the fix to Surveillance it may be cool to get back an ability similar to the Silence ability that would allow us to pull without getting social. I don't want to get into too much discussion about AAs on this thread though since that isnt its purpose.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Happy New Year!!!!!</DIV>

prochu

01-01-2007, 08:54 AM

<DIV>as u have tol raina :We cant expect to be #1 for one simple reason: SOE has declared that there is different Tiers of DPS and there are several classes within those tiers</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>agree we cant be first on all parses but neither we can loose to tier 2 dps as necros and atm necros with lifeburn and with healer healing him are top zonewide dps .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and about aa i think as u that we cant get more dps with it because soe wont give us more dps but we could get uber utility aa as pet with dispatch ( necro get it ) or other thing.the fact is that all assassin have given 45 euros or so to SOE for useless aa and for nothing more because assa/ranger equipment isnt in game still neither</DIV>

HellRaiserXX

01-01-2007, 09:32 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> prochuvi wrote:<BR> <DIV>as u have tol raina :We cant expect to be #1 for one simple reason: SOE has declared that there is different Tiers of DPS and there are several classes within those tiers</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>agree we cant be first on all parses but neither we can loose to tier 2 dps as necros and atm necros with lifeburn and with healer healing him are top zonewide dps .</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and about aa i think as u that we cant get more dps with it because soe wont give us more dps but we could get uber utility aa as pet with dispatch ( necro get it ) or other thing.the fact is that all assassin have given 45 euros or so to SOE for useless aa and for nothing more because assa/ranger equipment isnt in game still neither</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>And that right there is the real problem. I think that SOE has finally managed to lock down Tier 1 DPS, all the classes initially stated in the LU13 as Tier 1 are now there, but there are other classes that are supposed to be Tier 2 and are tier 1. Will it get changed? who knows, but that really should have no bearing on us. We are Tier 1 and doing what we are supposed to be doing as we have always done. Assassins in my oppinion have been and are the most stable and reliable DPS class ever. People say we get no love, which we dont, but it is often the case that we dont really need it.

Jvaloth

01-01-2007, 10:24 AM

<P>I keep saying this... I keep beating a dead horse I guess...</P> <P>I know how to play my class. I've been parsing #1 forever. I'm a guild leader and raid leader, we parse and post every fight and watch everyones performances so we have a better visual of how we are doing and where we need to improve. Since EoF I'm parsing #3-#5, primarily behind 2 Swashbucklers with equal gear and the same group configurations pre-EoF. </P> <P>How can I possibly improve when I have no AA's to do so?</P> <P>EoF comes out and multiple people pass me in 2 weeks time. They didnt learn how to play their class better, I didn't forget how to play mine, they just got better AA's and the raising of the stat/haste caps benefitted them more so than it benefits assassins. (haste proc/stance with str/agi)</P> <P>If you don't have any swashies in your guild, this doesnt apply to you because you can't see what I'm talking about. </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

t0gar

01-01-2007, 10:30 AM

<div></div>Say we do get a little better with more work... So will the other classes. They have new AA's to get used to. As much as we work on our old abilities, they haven't really changed except a little extra dot damage or a little more haste/dps from the buff, or w/e AA's you decided to choose. We can work our [Removed for Content] off on our old abilities that have very minimal boosts and end up with maybe an extra 100 or 200 DPS in a couple months that we squeezed out of nothing. Now take the classes with new abilities and even greater boosts to their current ones. They can only get better as they get more and more used to, comfortable with, practiced with, etc.. their new/improved abilities. We might have some room for improvement, but the way I see it if they're half as motivated they have room for even more.While there's room for us to improve on our old abilities, they have just as much and maybe more room to improve both their new and old.But I've said it before and I'll say it again, it does help boost some of the T1 DPS classes that clearly weren't. Now just fix the T2 DPS and balance out the T1's a little more refinely and we're gtg.Warlocks were never unbalanced IMO. I'd constantly get beat by my guilds on encounter mobs. Unless I'm missing something that's how it's suppose to be? They have slightly more utility then us so you can't expect them to be toe to toe with us all the time. Same with wizards. And rouges. Though a good sorcerer should give us a run for our money and keep us from slacking a ranger should be doing that constantly. Some might argue that we should be above rangers constantly for our lack of AoE immunity, but I think that's a conscious choice you should be making when selecting between the 2 classes. If you can't take a bruise go grab a bow.<div></div><p>Message Edited by t0gar on <span class=date_text>12-31-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:39 PM</span>

HellRaiserXX

01-01-2007, 11:22 AM

<P>and thats exactly why I want to see your parses since my guild doesnt have a high parsing swashy, but it would stand to reason to me that if they sorcs and necros arent parsing that much higher than me the swashies wont be either. I could very well be wrong on that which is why I am curious to see other guilds parsers. Its not a problem with us, its a problem with swashies and instead of giving us a boost SOE needs to fix the swashies. That is really the whole point behind every argument Ive been making since EoF came out. There is really nothing fundamentally wrong with the Assassin class, we are right where we should be. If you are still parsing high and being beat by swashies than you have nothing to be frustrated about except that SOEs mechanics are [Removed for Content] and what else is new. If it is as people say than we will have solid evidence and will be able to make a better case of it. </P> <P>I apologize Jvaloth, I believe I may have misunderstood what you were saying as a reason why we should get a boost and not that there is something wrong with swashys parsing so high. /bow</P>

Jvaloth

01-01-2007, 12:41 PM

<P>Well... thats a taboo of mine. </P> <P>I don't want to get my guildies nerfed...</P> <P>However, I also dont want a supposed Tier 2 class with alot more versatility/debuffs etc easily out parsing me in all situations either.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

Malaqai

01-01-2007, 01:41 PM

<div></div><div></div>I agree with JValoth on this...Sorry but I don't see a reason in swashies and necros outparsing predators and wizards/warlocks. No logic there at all. Illusionists got a massive boost too (though can't complain there, illu's my best friend, haste and their AA double attack).I'm glad the other classes got cool AA... That's all very nice. But mine AA are [Removed for Content] and give me absolutely nothing to look forward to. As far as the parse goes, I've mentioned this already..... I still top mine, rest of our DPS (and the entire raid) is still figuring out new AA stuff for all classes. But, an assassin buddy of mine, whom I absolutely trust to play the class right (been at it pretty much since launch, like myself) went down on his parse from #1 to #4 - #6.Did he suddenly forget how to play? Em, nope. DId the rest of the DPS suddenly become so much better at it? Don't think so.I have a few issues with this and people defending SOE can defend them all they want but....:- we got VERY little to look forward to in EoF, the AAs turned from a race to "I don't care, playing my alt out of raids"... disappointing, no improvement at all (well, very little). Outside of raids and helping people here and there, I'm not fussed. Did most quests in EoF on my alt, cos the AA he got is actually useful to him.- classes with utility should NOT be outparsing preds and sorcerers....- absolute lack of communication from SOE (on all of this, our AA, Surveillance, etc.. We didnt't get a single reply... And the brigand forum is even worse, they had the Ancient Bloody Teaching Amazing Reflexes nerfed from an awesome ability - maybe overpowered okay - but nerfed into absolute uselesness... not one reply)- and worst of all... the total lack of effort and knowledge put into our EoF AAs... Now say anything you want, but the abilty to cut down on timer for Constriction is hilarious. Malignant Mark increase in proc percentage is silly, and gets ridiculous when you know it's in your bleeding line. Enhanced Sprint, points in Adroit Defence? Please. Poison line is horrible, Gateway useless, Repeated Stabbing a joke. This is NOT about the other classes and what they got. I couldn't care less. But WE got very little and to me, at least, it is so very obvious that these AAs were designed by people who: a) didn't know b) didn't care c) didn't bother to test or find out.And that last thing is what really is discouraging.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Malaqai on <span class="date_text">01-01-2007</span> <span class="time_text">12:55 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Malaqai on <span class=date_text>01-01-2007</span> <span class=time_text>12:57 AM</span>

t0gar

01-01-2007, 01:59 PM

<div></div>I recently got a new computer and the only raid I've done on it was with the swashy so inc parses of me being a swashy in labs. I didn't stick around for end-zone merge so I can't parse that, but i think these individual parses do show something. First off a quick runthrough of who these names are that you'll be seeing:Helspeth - me under swashyPawkeo - my character played by swashyBlood - brigKrill/Hask - rangersNethis - wizSlippy - warlockAnyone else not named their class probably isn't important. I dont think parsing non-nameds is important since any skill used on named was also up on almost every non-named encounter, but i'll throw in a few randoms i come across, no promises since /log files are crazy. Different for the assassin however as you'll notice in the spiking. Helspeth and Pawkeo are the only ones decently raid geared except Slippy(of DPS classes), but I have no idea what he was doing all raid.<u><b>Vyemm:</b></u>"Allies: (02:09) 1686267 | 13071.84 [Faeth-Incinerate-28320]""Helspeth 230439|1786.35""Bloodscorn 179454|1391.12""Pawkeo 159925|1239.73""Krill 144580|1120.78""Nethis 129080|1000.62"***Dont think I've ever parsed this high on Vyemm on my Assassin***<u><b>Alzid:</b></u>"Allies: (02:05) 1236464 | 9891.71 [Pawkeo-Decapitate-17970]""Pawkeo 184663|1477.30""Krill 155530|1244.24""Helspeth 139239|1113.91""Nethis 120185|961.48""Slippihippy 118514|948.11"***Think half the guild was poking Vyemm's body still. Alzid shouldn't last half that time might have been a faulty parse I really don't know. He's fought as a seperate encounter than Vyemm.***<u><b>Ugly eye before Vyemm:</b></u>"Allies: (00:43) 828365 | 19264.30 [Pawkeo-Decapitate-20958]""Pawkeo 106285|2471.74""Helspeth 88573|2059.84""Slippihippy 88228|2051.81""Bloodscorn 83242|1935.86""Krill 69158|1608.33""Shangortu 56554|1315.21""Hask 48864|1136.37"<b><u>Doomsworn Zatrakh:</u></b>"Allies: (01:42) 1470856 | 14420.16 [Pawkeo-Decapitate-20051]""Helspeth 186344|1826.90""Pawkeo 180115|1765.83""Slippihippy 155221|1521.78""Bloodscorn 151871|1488.93""Hask 123323|1209.05""Krill 101564|995.73"<u><i>Trash</i></u>"Allies: (01:03) 718279 | 11401.25 [Pawkeo-Finishing Blow-7381]""Helspeth 111589|1771.25""Slippihippy 93152|1478.60""Bloodscorn 62721|995.57""Hask 60721|963.83""Zailam 57632|914.79""Timius 45759|726.33""Krill 42152|669.08""Pawkeo 41124|65"***First trash parse I came by, a group right before Doom mob***"Allies: (00:24) 307880 | 12828.33 [Pawkeo-Finishing Blow-5570]""Pawkeo 41998|1749.92""Hask 41575|1732.29""Slippihippy 40346|1681.08""Helspeth 36829|1534.54""Bloodscorn 25772|1073.83""Bronchitis 22419|934.13"***First solo mob come by, obviously a drake***Pretty much ignore everyone but Pawkeo and Helspeth's parses. Everyone else was just to show ranking. Though I do find it funny that I playing a swashy that I've never touched can come out #1 + 2 so often along with a mostly unexperienced Assassin. Then again it's not really funny at all and shows how unbalanced class skill can be. The swashy playing my assassin did a lot of spike dmg so for the most part he'll have a better parse on nameds than most trash, but certainly not all.For further explainatory purposes, the swashy had roughly 75 AA. Most other guildies(including Pawkeo) had 60ish. So the swashy had about half his EoF AA's done this raid while most had more around 1/3. As shown already with our AA's though they wont effect DPS by much. Another thing to note is that Pawkeo was using GM caustic while Helspeth was only using non-rare. How much would have changed if helspeth was using GM i can't be sure of, but probably not too much.So here we have an unexperienced swashy keeping an average DPS of 1.3-1.6k? something like that. I wont parse the start mobs because I sucked complete [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] on them until i learned how to play lol. Neither of us died any of these fights as well, another reason i picked later fights but mostly the previously stated.It's late and i can't think of anything I haven't covered so I'm just ganna post w/e crap I have. If you something more thoroughly explained or w/e lemme know.<div></div>

Salat

01-01-2007, 09:57 PM

<P>Once again, if your necros arent parsing number one raid wide by 100,000+ damage or more every raid. Then either your necros have no clue what they are doing, or your raid does not know how to max DPS. </P> <P>Bolster cast on Necro before Lifeburn is activated. HoTs cast on Necro before Lifeburn is casted. All debuffs possibly, and tank using long recast taunt. On most named mobs with large amounts of HP, 50K+ damage will be LIfeburn. 5 min recast timer. Our Guild necro has LB hits on certain names for 75K damage.</P> <P>Unlike manaburn, the necros health is healed up quickly, with a few heals. He can continue casting spells since his mana was unaffected. His pets continue doing damage while LB is firing off.</P> <P>Sorry, but if I had utlilty like limted healing abils, pets, attacking out of AoE range, Ability to give power hearts to other classes, Rez abils, and such, this wouldn't be an issue.</P> <P>I could care less if rangers parse higher then me, or mages, or warlocks. Zonewide, its very rare one of those classes do. Even when we decided to raid with one of the other raid guilds on our server for fun last night and something different. Doesnt change the fact, the necros blew everyone away on DPS. </P>

Gerdos

01-01-2007, 10:54 PM

<P>The problem with parses from other sources, you just dont know enough about them to make an accurate impression of what's going on.</P> <P>Parses dont show group setups or group changes, player buffs, equipment used or the CA lvls of players, nor adornments or AA points, nor AFK's ... nor a persons skill level (something that needs to be taken into consideration). Outside my own zonewide parses, i can't relly on other peoples zonewides parses (including those from my own guild), since i dont know if they have been adjusted to look a certain way. There's just too many unknown variables that affects dps. The only parses i'm concerned with are my own parses from my own guild b/c i know most of the variables .. so can make an accurate assessment on what's going on. </P> <P>Using other peoples parses is fraught with risk, and a sure way of getting upset/confused .. and open to manipulation or missinterpretation.</P> <P>So, where does that leave the discussion? It comes down to people voicing their opinions based on their own experiences. However, by recognising those who have repeatedly proven themselves over time to provide consistent and accurate information, their opinions should carry alot of influence. Hellraiser and Graton, are great examples to me. However, in this situation, my own personal experiences show me what's happening and i know that those in my guild are some of the best players for their class and are evenly equiped/setup, so i use that sample base to form my own conclusions/opinions (which i stated earlier). </P> <P>Lifeburn necro's, manaburn wizards, warlocks, summoners, rogues, zerkers, bruisers ... just make up the numbers on zonewide parsings. Don't make the mistake of seeing these classes winning dps every few encounters (in some cases, with a huge dps number) to reflect what's going on in zonewide parsings. </P> <P><STRONG><U>When everything is even, assassins are still the main DPS class. However, they now share it with rangers and dps specced wizards</U></STRONG>. Assassins now have real competition and need to consistenly work hard to hold that lead. Don't worry about not topping a lot of parses, it's simply impossible now, given how balanced it is b/w those 3 classes, and how some other classes function. Being able to consistently parse high in every fight, is what gives the predator and dps wizard classes an advantage over the others and why i love the predator (my ranger) classes.</P> <P>Assassins can no longer hide behind an imbalanced class that did not reflect a players true ability . This change, really is going to sort out the great players from the pack. Sadly, a lot of players might be shocked by the results. While for those who do step up to the new challenges ... they'll find the game more enjoyable then ever. </P> <P>Those who fall short, now have something to work towards. Just don't blame the classes.</P> <P><EM>(note: although i do think assassins, rangers and dps wizards are the top 3 dps classes .. i do concede that lifeburn necro's need to be looked at. Not because they are the top dps class, but because its too easy for them to reach high dps figures. They would be the main class in game atm, where players can hide behind their "easy mode" Lifeburn. Yes, i know manaburn wizards also fit this category, but they are far more limited given how mana pools works, compared to health pools.)</EM></P> <P> </P>

Mr. Dawki

01-01-2007, 11:33 PM

<P>Assassins can no longer hide behind an imbalanced class that did not reflect a players true ability . This change, really is going to sort out the great players from the pack. Sadly, a lot of players might be shocked by the results. While for those who do step up to the new challenges ... they'll find the game more enjoyable then ever. </P> <HR> i agree with this statement <P>the changes or lack there of have truly brought out the players who know how to play their class well, while some classes can mearly click a few spells and match us we now have to use every short and dirty trick available to use to hold our heads above the water</P> <P>however it does not change the fact that our class has gone unchanged since the begining of the game, other than the few anchient skills we got through DOF, we realy have just fallen to the back of the line when it came to aa's, i do believe that the other t1 dps have been brought up so they could match our dps, but a lot of the other t2-3 dps classes are now matching us, which seems a bit unfair.</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Mr. Dawkins on <span class=date_text>01-01-2007</span> <span class=time_text>10:34 AM</span>

LoreLady

01-01-2007, 11:45 PM

You have really taken the words out of my mouth and then some gerdos, I agree with you 100%. In KoS it was easier for me to outparse myself (ranger) only missing 4 or so masters with a completely adept 3'd assassin. Now that things have changed its fairly ballanced between myself and an assassin.. Sony has really ballanced out most of the classes out there and the classes that are out there are more or less are where they should be. The only class I havent seen any kind of numbers for or have an indication of skill is warlock..While I agree that lifeburn shouldent be an "easy button" for dps, there should be some form of limitation on the ability. The wizards manaburn is great where it is simply because of the way mana works over health.. But lifeburn should stun the caster for X amount of seconds, or kill the pet or something like that.. Every class should have to work its hardest to hit the parse, no class should have an easy button.For those of you who are being outparsed frequently by swashbucklers, brigands, rangers,rangers.. Ask yourself what you can do to better your dps, there are thousands of other assassins out there.. Many of them have a better understanding of there class and how to hit there highest dps better than you do.. There is always ways to boost dps or nice little tricks, its up to you to find them out and do what you can to be the best that you can be.While assassins do minor class problems (as with every other class out there) - I firmly believe that they are where they should be.

HellRaiserXX

01-02-2007, 12:43 AM

<P>I definately agree that you cannot compare parses from different guilds because of those variables, the same as I cannot compare myself to any other assassin because we will have different play styles etc. I think though with enough data we should be able to get a kind of weighted average parse that will eliminate much of the variables because that will also be an average of all the different variables included. It cant be a perfect study, but I think its going to show a lot. Keep in my mind that this isnt for comparison, we wont be comparing the different guilds and players to see who is best. This data will be used to create a large avg parse that should give an indication of where the DPS classes are sitting worldwide. The numbers are not important, whats important is which classes are consistantly making the top spots. </P> <P>Interesting experiment Pawkeo. I could definately tell where the skill of someone who has played an assassin for a long time comes into play vs an inexperienced player like Helspeth playing you. That would be on the trash, an experienced assassin can parse way way higher on the trash. It takes a good deal of skill to be able to parse fairly high a multiple mob encounters. I found it interesting that the wizard was absent on most of those parses, either dead or not trying lol. You should be able to get higher on Vyemm, I usually do around 1700 on him. A big key to that is getting him settled in one place, so even when hes mem wiping hes just spinning in place and not bouncing around. </P>

t0gar

01-02-2007, 01:10 AM

My guild is on the more relaxed side of raiding. Though we do like to raid and win, we usually dont have the classes we want or the numbers to go slaughter everything. Often we'll have people 2-box a needed class during a raid or logged into someone else so we have a better chance at completion. Nethis was a new recruit that was probably on his 3rd-4th raid with us and he has no raid-fabled gear. I think that more than explains any parses he didn't make. That parse was a poor representation parse I'll admit since we had switched characters and no one pays attention much in labs. But I think this parse does show that we now have to earn our parses to beat swashy's who should be relatively easy to beat being T2 classes.<div></div>

LoreLady

01-02-2007, 06:26 AM

Right now getting the highs and low of all the class is quite difficult simply because of AA's, however getting an average parse is something that is very valuble and gives you an idea where you sit on the benchmark...The only way to directly compare the two classes is directly compare there abilities with all posibilities of AA's, and the more you get into that the harder it is to be clear about what you are trying to do. Also, with procs, double attack, mark etc this task becomes even harder.. You can only show much on papper and keep it clear unfortunatly.

khufure

01-03-2007, 06:57 AM

Let's rethink some of what's going on.1.) Parses from each named is useless.2.) Especially without buffs/STR listed.3.) Arguing about which class is better is useless. I'm an assassin, if you wanna play a swashy or necro go play one. We're still badass and if we improved with other classes we'd be nerfed. Would you rather be nerfed or not improved. (I'll take the latter option).What can this post do that's useful to help people? We can list where our dps is in % of damage done along with the buffs and weapons. The pie charts can be done graphically in pie charts by ACT. The buffs and weapons have to be done by you.DPS tips:- STR needs to be ~750. If you can get it to 900+ that's even better.- Crits are really important. You want to be in a bard group with dont kill the messenger.- The holy trio of weapons is grinning dirk of horror (#1), the piercing rapier from inner sanctum (#2), and dirk of negativity from HOS (#3). GDOH is significantly better than the rest as you get your crit % up. If you crit % is low you are a bad assassin and those weapons aren't helping you, especially GDOH (with ~57 DR). If your crit % is low just go with the highest DR weapon.- Get the league quests done for those 2% crit jewelry.Best buffs, in order of best to worst:- Dirge (DKTM, melee proc, power regen, STR)- Troubador (DKTM, spell proc, power regen, STR, deaggro)- Illusionist (haste buff, awesome power regen, INT)- Coercer (DPS proc, awesome power regen, INT)- Zerker (awesome STR proc, berserk haste/dps)- Fury (agitate STR+haste/dps)- Wizard (STR/INT, phoenix blade)I suspect:- DPS 10% adornments aren't as good as 1% crit adornments.<div></div>

Merkad

01-03-2007, 01:24 PM

Quite an interesting thread. Anyways I am just chiming in with one substantial missed buff by Khufure. The double attack aa by an Illusionist (25% double attack melee/ranged) probably deserves mention. I don't know if it is as awesome a buff for you guys as it is for me, but I cannot imagine it being low enough to not mention. Imo, Illusionist is now my favorite buff class.Merkades, 70th Ranger.Siege, Najena.<div></div>

Kaiser Sigma

01-03-2007, 04:15 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> khufure wrote:<BR><BR>Best buffs, in order of best to worst:<BR>- Dirge (DKTM, melee proc, power regen, STR)<BR>- Troubador (DKTM, spell proc, power regen, STR, deaggro)<BR>- Illusionist (haste buff, awesome power regen, INT)<BR>- Coercer (DPS proc, awesome power regen, INT)<BR>- Zerker (awesome STR proc, berserk haste/dps)<BR>- Fury (agitate STR+haste/dps)<BR>- Wizard (STR/INT, phoenix blade)<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><FONT size=2><FONT face=Verdana>With the inclusion of Illusory Arm in EoF I'd put Illusionists above Troubadors.</FONT></FONT>

snack-machine

01-03-2007, 05:50 PM

<DIV>To the poaster that stated that no one works harder for their DPS than an assassin....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Having betrayed from being a ranger I'd have to say that with their need to joust back and forth as well as having the positional and sneak attacks, they may work pretty darn hard as well (harder I think to really max out their DPS).</DIV>

HazNpho

01-03-2007, 10:01 PM

<div><blockquote><hr>t0gar wrote:<div></div>Say we do get a little better with more work... So will the other classes. They have new AA's to get used to. As much as we work on our old abilities, they haven't really changed except a little extra dot damage or a little more haste/dps from the buff, or w/e AA's you decided to choose. We can work our [Removed for Content] off on our old abilities that have very minimal boosts and end up with maybe an extra 100 or 200 DPS in a couple months that we squeezed out of nothing. Now take the classes with new abilities and even greater boosts to their current ones. They can only get better as they get more and more used to, comfortable with, practiced with, etc.. their new/improved abilities. We might have some room for improvement, but the way I see it if they're half as motivated they have room for even more.While there's room for us to improve on our old abilities, they have just as much and maybe more room to improve both their new and old.But I've said it before and I'll say it again, it does help boost some of the T1 DPS classes that clearly weren't. Now just fix the T2 DPS and balance out the T1's a little more refinely and we're gtg.Warlocks were never unbalanced IMO. I'd constantly get beat by my guilds on encounter mobs. Unless I'm missing something that's how it's suppose to be? They have slightly more utility then us so you can't expect them to be toe to toe with us all the time. Same with wizards. And rouges. Though a good sorcerer should give us a run for our money and keep us from slacking a ranger should be doing that constantly. Some might argue that we should be above rangers constantly for our lack of AoE immunity, but I think that's a conscious choice you should be making when selecting between the 2 classes. If you can't take a bruise go grab a bow.<div></div><p>Message Edited by t0gar on <span class="date_text">12-31-2006</span> <span class="time_text">09:39 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>So I took your idea and did the same thing, except I used a Conj friend of mine, he would parse roughly 1.5k as well as me. I took up his character shared a few things with him and he shared a few with me, told me what to hit and what not, so we sit down beside eachother, me on my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ty graphic slow peice of junk laptop and him on the desktop. I parsed 1.2k and he parsed 900 for most of the night, as we closed in on the end I was parsing 1.5k and he was just hitting 1.1k. I'd say that things are getting pretty unbalanced, fine we gotta work for our DPS, but when a Conj can equal DPS on us and be a simple class to use... I mean sending his pet in casting plane and away he goes, I'd say things are a little un even, oh... lets not forget his proc buff and countless others he had to do for me cause I couldn't find them fast enough. I'd say we need a little love somewhere. We should not be having to work that hard to match a class that can sit back and barely do anything, yet still parse with us.</div>

khufure

01-03-2007, 11:22 PM

<div><blockquote><hr>Merkades wrote:Quite an interesting thread. Anyways I am just chiming in with one substantial missed buff by Khufure. The double attack aa by an Illusionist (25% double attack melee/ranged) probably deserves mention. I don't know if it is as awesome a buff for you guys as it is for me, but I cannot imagine it being low enough to not mention. Imo, Illusionist is now my favorite buff class.Merkades, 70th Ranger.Siege, Najena.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Hmmm.. We have been missing an illusionist for quite some time in our guild. Recently picked one up. I have not heard of this buff till now. I will definately ask about this! 25% double attack for us is also huge. I am not sure how huge, but ~25-30% normal autoattack dps indicates substantial...Thnx</div>

khufure

01-03-2007, 11:40 PM

<div><blockquote><hr>HazNpho wrote:<div>So I took your idea and did the same thing, except I used a Conj friend of mine, he would parse roughly 1.5k as well as me. I took up his character shared a few things with him and he shared a few with me, told me what to hit and what not, so we sit down beside eachother, me on my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ty graphic slow peice of junk laptop and him on the desktop. I parsed 1.2k and he parsed 900 for most of the night, as we closed in on the end I was parsing 1.5k and he was just hitting 1.1k. I'd say that things are getting pretty unbalanced, fine we gotta work for our DPS, but when a Conj can equal DPS on us and be a simple class to use... I mean sending his pet in casting plane and away he goes, I'd say things are a little un even, oh... lets not forget his proc buff and countless others he had to do for me cause I couldn't find them fast enough. I'd say we need a little love somewhere. We should not be having to work that hard to match a class that can sit back and barely do anything, yet still parse with us.</div><hr></blockquote>Having raided fairly extensively with a conjuror - was my main before assassin - I can tell you its not as simple as that. Conjuror is constantly giving out shards and the pet dies quite a bit. When the pet dies this drops dps by substantial amounts. It takes quite a bit of time to resummon & buff a pet. Also the conjuror is far more gear dependant than the assassin. With the conjuror fast casting you dps comes from proc and (since conj has no self-int buff), int gear.The DOT pets and buffs on the conjuror are actually quite similar. You have to time when to cast : elemental vestment, two DOT spells, and when to cast your two death prevent spells on your pet. Similarly with assassins you ahve to time your temp buffs and auto-attacks and position properly.Also for me the biggest problem; does your raid has multiple conjurors to prevent shard giving? In my guild we chain pull and I constantly have to dole out shards, which lowered my attention and caused my pet to die constantly. Pretty frustrating!</div>

judged_one

01-04-2007, 03:34 AM

<DIV>Sorry to break it to most assassin. But Swashy is capable of 3k group parse and 2k+ single parse.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So until you post something above that as assassin, I just have to disagree with most of the comment.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Group Trash Mob</DIV> <DIV>Allies: (00:51) 1064461 | 20871.79<BR>Swashy | 2878.06<BR>Wizard | 2673.31<BR>Necro | 2340.78<BR>Hearth | 2000.96<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Single Trash Mob</DIV> <DIV>Allies: (00:4<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 905616 </DIV> <DIV>Swashy | 2398.63<BR>Hearth | 2315.19<BR>Wizard | 1809.31<BR>Ranger 1622.10<BR></DIV> <DIV>Named mob</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Allies: (03:34) 3251306 <BR>Hearth | 2111.78<BR>Swashy | 2027.26<BR>Wizard | 1729.28<BR></DIV> <DIV>These are 3 consecutive fight. I only won the third one cause I have all my CA up.</DIV> <DIV>And you all think swashy should be parsing this high with all their utilities, you guys are out of your mind.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by judged_one on <span class=date_text>01-03-2007</span> <span class=time_text>02:34 PM</span>

khufure

01-04-2007, 04:10 AM

When did this discussion turn into Swashy selected trash mob parsing? Doesn't the thread say 'assassin dps'?<div></div>

Jayad

01-04-2007, 04:11 AM

<P>I was a raiding ranger before betraying to assassin (because my new guild had too many rangers already). From my point of view, the assassin requires more work, but it's not a huge difference. The main thing about the assassin is you have strict positional requirements and you have to joust OUT. The ranger's positional requirements are a lot simpler (if the MT turns the mobs properly) and you joust IN. However, nobody should be saying they're easy. The amount of work is not hugely different. You definately pay a lot more attention to AOEs as an assassin. The idea that rangers worry a lot about them is just not true. In fact, if the mob has an AOE, you just don't need to joust in at all. Rangers actually have less utility than assassins, though. At least assassins get the hate transfer.</P> <P>Individual parses are pretty worthless, whether they're named or not. When discussing DPS you need properly set up groups and ZONE parses.</P>

Computer MAn

01-04-2007, 04:14 AM

Considering those 3k parses are under 1 min fights thats pretty weak. If you want to parse singles the fight actually has to be decently long as anything under 1.5 mins or so has some pretty inflated numbers.<div></div>

Computer MAn

01-04-2007, 07:05 AM

judged_one

01-04-2007, 09:34 AM

<DIV>Considering those 3k parses are under 1 min fights thats pretty weak. If you want to parse singles the fight actually has to be decently long as anything under 1.5 mins or so has some pretty inflated numbers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>hmm hence trash, I don't think there is trash mob parse over 1 min, except for these stupid armour in IS.</DIV> <DIV>And fyi I got a new computer, so I dont have tons of old parse.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here is ZW for our swashy. I was healing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Swashy | 1981.08<BR></DIV> <DIV>I will post more once I get these parse.</DIV><p>Message Edited by judged_one on <span class=date_text>01-03-2007</span> <span class=time_text>08:38 PM</span>

HellRaiserXX

01-04-2007, 10:43 AM

<P>what zone is that from Hearth?</P> <P>The goal of this thread is to try and determine for sure where assassins sit on the DPS tiers. Swashy DPS is not that important and really not the topic of discussion, but I will say this--Soe didnt just decide to make swashys god, I believe their high parses post EoF is mostly just a side effect of the stat cap increases. Good Swashies have always parsed high, but they were being limited by the stat caps and no one really noticed it, now those limitations are gone and their abilities are working to their fullest effect.</P> <DIV>"<EM>And you all think swashy should be parsing this high with all their utilities, you guys are out of your mind</EM>."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I highly doubt anybody thinks that. We all realize there is an imbalance there, we are just not so preoccupied and worried about it. I personally would rather focus on my own class and obtaining the highest possible DPS I can then worrying about what other classes are doing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ill try to get some of my own parses up here in the next few days, our necro has been away for the holidays and I dont feel it would be an accurate representation without him. Try to limit it to zonewide parses only since that is what we are looking for.</DIV><p>Message Edited by HellRaiserXX on <span class=date_text>01-03-2007</span> <span class=time_text>09:44 PM</span>

Mr. Dawki

01-04-2007, 11:26 AM

<P>lore lady i agree with you to a point</P> <P>assassins are getting beaten by swashys and brigs that have the same understanding of each others class</P> <P>but when you study how each buff works best with what abilitys and you are using every little trick you can find to boost your dps and yet you are still being beaten by a novice swashy its disheartening</P> <P>i logged onto my brothers swashy and with about 10 min of looking over his skills and swapping them into hotbars to myliking i was beating my assassins dps</P> <P>a 10 min old swashy user was able to beat the dps of a 2 year old assassin use essentialy, </P> <P>its not right</P>

LoreLady

01-04-2007, 08:53 PM

<div><blockquote><hr>Mr. Dawkins wrote:<div></div> <p>lore lady i agree with you to a point</p> <p>assassins are getting beaten by swashys and brigs that have the same understanding of each others class</p> <p>but when you study how each buff works best with what abilitys and you are using every little trick you can find to boost your dps and yet you are still being beaten by a novice swashy its disheartening</p> <p>i logged onto my brothers swashy and with about 10 min of looking over his skills and swapping them into hotbars to myliking i was beating my assassins dps</p> <p>a 10 min old swashy user was able to beat the dps of a 2 year old assassin use essentialy, </p> <p>its not right</p><hr></blockquote>While the swashbuckler is high on the dps chain (agreed on possibly alittle too high), you cant discount your own buffs, debuffs, and mods.. The swashbuckler does get debuffs - yes, and the swashbuckler has a hate transfer lesser to your own, the swash has a greater ability to tank, yes.. However, there are two things about a swashbuckler.. There utility (imo) is comparable to an assassin, and if they wait a long time they get high dps, if they are fighting constantly its going to be lower.. They also only have one AE..The main problem I think is with rouges - is simply double attack... I dont think any class should have a 50% chance to double attack.</div>

LoreLady

01-04-2007, 09:15 PM

<div><blockquote><div><blockquote></blockquote>So I took your idea and did the same thing, except I used a Conj friend of mine, he would parse roughly 1.5k as well as me. I took up his character shared a few things with him and he shared a few with me, told me what to hit and what not, so we sit down beside eachother, me on my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ty graphic slow peice of junk laptop and him on the desktop. I parsed 1.2k and he parsed 900 for most of the night, as we closed in on the end I was parsing 1.5k and he was just hitting 1.1k. I'd say that things are getting pretty unbalanced, fine we gotta work for our DPS, but when a Conj can equal DPS on us and be a simple class to use... I mean sending his pet in casting plane and away he goes, I'd say things are a little un even, oh... lets not forget his proc buff and countless others he had to do for me cause I couldn't find them fast enough. I'd say we need a little love somewhere. We should not be having to work that hard to match a class that can sit back and barely do anything, yet still parse with us.</div><hr></blockquote>I havent raided as a conj or necro, but I have wizard.. And let me tell ya, that even with ranger/assassin skills the combination of arts matters but not to that extent.. A wizard is the hardest dps class ive played to date simply because a certain order will get you killed but high dps, a certain cast order will do moderate dps but keep your mana -your on the low end of the parse. Getting to the high end of the parses as a wizard is intense - and I would assume it is for a conj/necro as well.. I know they have lots of problems with controll of there pet (apparently it doesnt obey well <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)..Anyways, the point above to someone who made about other classes having it "easier" (not the person I highlighted, but was on the first page)- dont ever underestimate the challenge of another class just because you see them standing there.. Knowing what goes on behind the scenes can be quite something.</div>

judged_one

01-05-2007, 12:41 AM

There utility (imo) is comparable to an assassinHmmm no. 57 Dazzling Steel (Scribed)A quick attack that lowers the target's combat attack damage.57 Razor Point (Scribed)An attack from the side or front that deals medium damage. If it hits, it cripples target's ability to parry.58 Devious Blade (Scribed)An attack that enrages the target, causing the next person it attacks to generate much more hate for a short duration.59Gaudy Strike (Scribed)An offensive attack that cripples the target's intelligence.58 Lung Puncture (Scribed)A melee attack from behind that punctures the target's lungs, causing severe impairment to their offensive melee and casting skills.61 Guile (Scribed)An attack made from the side that deals moderate damage and decreases trauma (crushing, slashing, and piercing) mitigation on the target.64 Double-Cross (Scribed)Decreases target's defense and wisdom.66 Plunder (Scribed)An attack from behind that deals great damage and decreases the target's agility.68 Disarming Sneer (Scribed)Mesmerizes a single target and removes them from being affected by area of effect spells for a short duration.Whirl of Blades (Scribed)Three quick attacks. If one of these attacks misses, the successive ones will miss automatically. If all attacks hit, target's physical damage resistance is decreased.THESE are all the debuff from Swashy. Now lets look at Assassin debuff.58 Crippling Strike (Scribed)An attack that severely lowers target's defense on a successful hit from behind.64 Constrict (Assassin) (Scribed)Decreases target's defense and trauma resistance.65 Enmesh (Scribed)Severely decreases target's resistance to poison and slows target's movement speed for a short time. The slow effect has a chance to break each time the target is attacked.Thanks for your comment.

Jvaloth

01-05-2007, 04:22 AM

<P>I was just about to post that Cochy.</P> <P> </P> <P>Without a doubt we're totally overlooked as far as buffs/debuffs go. There is no way a swashy should be anywhere close to our dps considering everything else they bring to the table.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Jvaloth on <span class=date_text>01-04-2007</span> <span class=time_text>03:24 PM</span>

khufure

01-05-2007, 04:27 AM

<div><blockquote><hr>Jvaloth wrote:<p>I was just about to post that Cochy.</p> <p> Without a doubt we're totally overlooked as far as buffs/debuffs go. There is no way a swashy should be anywhere close to our dps considering everything else they bring to the table.</p> <p>Message Edited by Jvaloth on <span class="date_text">01-04-2007</span> <span class="time_text">03:24 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I would agree with that! Equally geared swashy wih spells & buffs should beat an assassin now. And debuff a lot more. And be able to tank better. And not work as hard. But..So what? Are we assassins or swashbucklers? If you want to go play a swashbuckler go do it.</div>

HellRaiserXX

01-05-2007, 05:35 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> khufure wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>So what? Are we assassins or swashbucklers? If you want to go play a swashbuckler go do it.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>amen

Jvaloth

01-05-2007, 06:32 AM

<P>See thats the kind of attitude that won't get us anywhere. You guys are perfectly content being 2nd class citizens. </P> <P>Why should I have to roll a swashbuckler and level him to 70 to do the job my assassin should be doing?</P> <P>Assassins should be parsing significantly higher than swashies and they arent. Thats the bottom line. </P> <P>I'm not goign to play one, I don't want to be a swashy. </P> <P>But I'm not going to stop complaining until there are changes made that address our Tier 1.5 DPS w/ zero utility or Swashies Tier 1 dps. Its called class balance and its a travesty that rogues are equalling or surpassing assassin parses on top of the debuffs they bring to the table.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

LoreLady

01-05-2007, 06:53 AM

The point I was trying to make earlier was not to under estimate your own utility, apply poison, hate transfer, was more what I was getting at..While there is a diffrence in utility, they are comparable.. The question stands is how much is 1 point of debuffing worth to one point of dps? How much should both be weighed in? While a swashbuckler should not damage an assassin classwide, a highend swash should outdamage a low end assassin.. The question is where does one become better than the other in terms of dps, and how much??I am not about to give out numbers on where swashbucklers are at as a whole - to much data to many people, nor can I make a large spreadsheet on them due to factors like double attack. What I can give is my own experiances of where our swashbuckler is at, and assassin but even that isent evidence enough to bring to the table. What I would like to know is the direct effect of debuffs against a mob, how much does 1 point of mitigation decrease effect 1 point of 1 persons dps? what about 6 people? 12 people? If we can factor this in, then we have a greater understanding of where t2 dps should sit to t1 dps.. Or have a greater understanding of why t2 dps is so close to t1..Personally, if I were to design EQ2 I would strip all t1 of all forms of utility accept for root and stun.. And give every other class debuffs that suited that down the scale of dps..

t0gar

01-05-2007, 10:00 AM

We have far less buffs then swashies. Far less debuffs. DPS I'll let you decide, but they are atleast toe-to-toe. They do have 2 AoE's not 1 like you stated Lore. And on top of that they dont really need sneak where our's can take extra time to cast and break very easily. Our utility isn't comparable with theirs, it's comparable with rangers. Our buffs aren't comparable with theirs, it's comparable with rangers. Our dps IS comparable with theirs however.If I wanted to play a swashy I wouldn't bother posting I'd just go level one. As someone stated earlier, we dont want to sit contently with less DPS and utility. We want to make changes to better the balance so we can feel like there's a point to our class. If you wanna sit there feel free, but don't rag on anyone trying to better the situation. I deeply doubt this thread or any other will even be looked at by sony anyways, but if nothing else it can be a vent for frustration and we can still pray/pretend that sony cares about their EQ2 players.<div></div>

HellRaiserXX

01-05-2007, 10:14 AM

<DIV>How you define Tier 1 DPS? how do you define any of the tiers? Someone starts parsing higher and now that is the new Tier 1 and everyone else is kicked back into the lower tiers? I disagree. Just because assassins may not be #1 all the time absolutely does not mean we are not still doing Tier 1 DPS. If the level cap was raised and all of a sudden we were getting owned by everyone maybe, but that is not the case here. I dont think Im a 2nd class citizen as you say, I still think I am first class, but I am no longer the only person sitting there. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>OMG please dont vent your frustration here, do that on the thread on achievement boards or start a new thread. We are trying to do something constructive here and Id rather not listen to people complain about swashy DPS here, thats not the topic. </DIV><p>Message Edited by HellRaiserXX on <span class=date_text>01-04-2007</span> <span class=time_text>09:19 PM</span>

Jvaloth

01-05-2007, 10:45 AM

<DIV>Trying to do somethign constructive? You are saying that we should be parsing in the top 6 instead of top 2.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You are saying we are right where were should be. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A class that does one thing and one thing only is now mixed together with 5+ other classes that do everything we can and more (better buffs, better debuffs, better utility, better soloability) and you think its perfectly fine... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well news flash, they aren't going to nerf those 5-6 other classes that are on par or surpassing us now. The only option they have is to beef assassins.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

judged_one

01-05-2007, 10:52 AM

<DIV>How you define Tier 1 DPS? how do you define any of the tiers? Someone starts parsing higher and now that is the new Tier 1 and everyone else is kicked back into the lower tiers? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Didnt you just answered your own question. Yes when someone start parsing higher then they are the new Tier 1.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Just because assassins may not be #1 all the time absolutely does not mean we are not still doing Tier 1 DPS.</DIV> <DIV>Hmm, If assassin are not parsing #1 on single target, then yes assassin are no longer close to tier 1.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>OMG please dont vent your frustration here, do that on the thread on achievement boards or start a new thread. We are trying to do something constructive here and Id rather not listen to people complain about swashy DPS here, thats not the topic. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So is the topic about how you are still tier 1 and #1 uber assassin.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please give me a break. Everyone here pretty much raided since t5, so stop this non-sense self ego inflating crap.</DIV> <DIV>I can go pull like a dozen parse about how I am uber assassin number 1.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fact is, something is wrong about class balance when a class have the least utilities, and second class DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is nothing egotistic about it.</DIV>

Gerdos

01-05-2007, 12:03 PM

<P>:smileyhappy:</P> <DIV>Nah, fact is, some people just suck. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They'd rather find excuses then face facts that they just may not be as good as they once thought they were. EoF is going to sort out the great players from the good, and the good from the average or bad, and some people just aren't going to be comfortable with what they see. That's what happens when class imbalance (like assassins were for KoS) hides a players real skill level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I count, 1, 2 .. 3, on this page alone that are in denial. Rather then attacking people who know what their talking about .. you'd achieve more by learning what those in the know do differently to you and begin to really learn group dynamics and what that does to the dps slippery pole. If i played any class, especially a dps class where perfomance can be easily measured ... i'd be paying attention to the opinions and advice of those with proven track records or players who consistently set the benchmark. I'd want to learn where i can improve and why my results aren't as good as the established players.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ignorance is no excuse for stupidity and shifting blame wont hide mediocrity.</DIV>

t0gar

01-05-2007, 12:33 PM

<div></div>I may have been a bit excessive when I said this thread is for venting. Only do it if you have the facts to back it up.<span>:smileywink:I'm sorry, but I really dont see anything constructive being done by showing our relation to other classes. We know where we stand individually with our own guilds. Farther than that it doesn't matter what others are doing as long as you can maximize your own potential. Pretty much everyone who raids with a swashy knows they can out dps us or match our dps. If you don't raid with a swashy why would you care? If your swashy's suck and they dont get anywhere near your parse then it doesn't matter. Same goes for other classes. However much I hate to say it this thread is just a bunch of whinning. The goal of it isn't, but the way I think it will turn out in the end is. This is different then I had thought when originally posting on this thread, but I pretty much was venting. I'm over the fact that I'm no longer the top parser and I have to work twice as hard to remain in the top 3 parse slots on a given fight and stand no chance on group fights and little on heavy AoE mobs. The classes are completely unbalanced, but look how long it took to improve rangers. I don't see anything happening for us anytime soon. And although I hate to see unbalanced classes I wouldn't wish a nerf bat on any guildy.This could be the sleep deprivation talking though. My mind completely changed after the first 2 sentences.</span><div></div>

t0gar

01-05-2007, 12:45 PM

I really hate when some of you say that because we get outparsed we suck(or w/e your reason for saying we suck is). I don't have a GDoH or DoN or Rapier of Darkness any other extremely powerful weapon. Because I can't do 1k on auto-attack isn't because I suck, it's because I dont have the resources. Everyone says the same exact thing for maximizing DPS 20,000x over. Give the best assassin decent gear and he'll still get his [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] kicked by a decent swashy with just above decent gear. So you can call other people whinners... pat yourself on the back and go back to playing EQ all day I doubt anyone cares.But please explain your godly wisdom. Wait lemme guess.1) Get the best weapons2) Go Str + Int AA's with maxing the crits3) Put GDoH in your main-hand4) Get the best gear and adorn it5) Get all your masters6) Get a good groupWas I close?<span>:smileyvery-happy:</span><div></div>

CycoZ

01-05-2007, 04:43 PM

<P>Lyceum raid a couple of nights ago.</P> <P>1,441 Me - assassin</P> <P>1,422 Swash</P> <P>1,349 Assassin</P> <P>1,287 Necro</P> <P>1,127 Ranger</P> <P>I was behind on the parse until the final named when I used Zek's rending.</P> <P>Swash typically parsed between 10 - 20% less than me in the past.</P> <P>Looks like we are pretty even in terms of dps at the moment although this might change when he gets more AA.</P> <P>I was happy with the 10-20% difference. Being more or less equal in terms of dps with all the swash utility is ridiculous.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

Outerspace

01-05-2007, 05:34 PM

<div><blockquote><hr>LoreLady wrote:The point I was trying to make earlier was not to under estimate your own utility, apply poison, hate transfer, was more what I was getting at..While there is a diffrence in utility, they are comparable.. What I would like to know is the direct effect of debuffs against a mob, how much does 1 point of mitigation decrease effect 1 point of 1 persons dps? what about 6 people? 12 people? If we can factor this in, then we have a greater understanding of where t2 dps should sit to t1 dps.. Or have a greater understanding of why t2 dps is so close to t1..<hr></blockquote>Assassin and Swashbuckler are not comparable in terms of utility, and the debuffs applied to a mob affect all people attacking it not just the person that applied the debuff. However much mitigation the swashbuckler debuffs it affects both the assassin, the swashbuckler and everyone else. In addition the assassin debuffs affect the swashbuckler, and everyone else. Therefore the DPS numbers can be compared directly.Swashy debuffs/utility:Group InvisPathfindingSwarthy Disorder - hate transferDazzling Steel - reduce DPS modRazor Point - reduce ParryGaudy Strike - reduce INTLung Puncture - melee and casting skill debuffGuile - reduce mitigationDouble-Cross - reduce defence and WISConstrain - reduce magic and divinePlunder - reduce AGIWhirl of Blades - reduce mitigationAssasin debuffs/utility:PathfindingApply Poison - give a poison proc to non poison userMurderous Design - hate transferConstriction - reduce defence and mitigationCrippling Strike - reduce defenceEnmesh - reduce poisonHow are these utilities possibly comparable?And don't forget, Swashbucklers get a 30% proc rate on their offensive stance which also interrupts, as well as self buff STR by 130!</div>

Historios

01-05-2007, 07:02 PM

<DIV>Here's zonewide merge for DT from this week.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was a bit rusty after being on vacation for a week</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Group makeup:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Me</DIV> <DIV>Zerker</DIV> <DIV>Dirge</DIV> <DIV>Coercer</DIV> <DIV>Temp</DIV> <DIV>Defiler</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Name DPS <BR>Wizard 1,579.88 <BR>Wizard 1,468.47 </DIV> <DIV>Histo(Me) 1,447.94 </DIV> <DIV>Brigand 1,327.67 </DIV> <DIV>Warlock 1,291.03 </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Both wizzies have MB and had a fury and troubie in their group</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've got 72 aa's currently (all EoF in bleed line, and max melee and spell crit with perfectionist)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Buffed str was about 800ish for most of the raid, and I did get bounced around a bit in the raid to a few different groups, but most of the raid I was in the group I mentioned above.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Using DoN and absolution<BR></DIV>

Malaqai

01-05-2007, 07:57 PM

Some people aren't whining; they're purely stating they're getting outparsed by swashies, which WAS NOT the case pre-EoF. Telling them "this will separate the good assassins from the bad ones" is a joke. They're the same players, and the DPS has turned.(from my PoV, I'm still top of the DPS on my parser... one wizzie definately closing down, significant increase in ranger's and swashie's DPS.... But I still top the parse, and most of the time by like 500-600 DPS; that's not my issue at all... My issue is people digarding other's people's opinion's - one of the best assassins i know fell down from #1 on parse to #4-#5 in his own raid guild for example - and saying... You suck. That's BS. They're saying, the SAME players, that they no longer top parse)My real problem with this class is the complete lack of effort put into the AA. Looks like something someone put together on a lunchbreak while working on Vanguard.WIll get you some parses soon, but yeah... Depends on raid setup, overall DPS, possible wipes in the zone, etc.<div></div>

LoreLady

01-05-2007, 08:53 PM

Outerspace, they are comparable not identical.. In terms of what swashys have to offer is comparable to an assassin not identical.. In what I have seen in my own guild and others (currently looking for a new guild for various reasons) the swashbuckler doesnt beat t1 dps in raids..If you look at the swashbuckler class to the brigand class, the brigand class has much more in debuffs (IE dispatch), the swashbuckler class in comparison has much more in damage.. So where "should" this leave swashbucklers? Well, by the looks of zonewide parsings swash bucklers are between t1 dps and brigands.. They arent past t1 dps..The thing that keeps t1 dps from skyrocketting far ahead from every other class is simply its utility, every t1 dps class gets some form of it. Currently t1 dps is pretty much in the same ballpark in terms of utility and dps..As stated many many times in this fourm, this new expansion is about skill now.. Getting wrapped up in the old ways isent going to get you far, I have seen a wide range of classes and parsings come through and so has everyone else.. I can honestly say that swashbucklers are high on the dps chain, but are not over the top.. The only thing I have a problem with is the necromancer easy button.. If you are being outdamaged by a swash - its time you looked at A - more zonewide parsings, B - looked at yourself with respect to the other classes around you.. The only diffrence now, is assassins now have to struggle to be the top dps, rather than slack.

Outerspace

01-05-2007, 09:28 PM

<div></div><div></div><div></div>As I have said on another thread, I'm always top on the parser in my guild by several hundred DPS. But we are not a raid guild, just a casual guild that does some raids. We don't have a perfect setup. I am not being out-DPS'd by Swashbucklers, Rangers or Wizards.I was simply saying that comparing Swashy utility to Assassin utility is silly because they quite clearly get more debuffs and utility: we get more nukes. Brigands get Dispatch but other than that they have the same number of debuffs as a Swashbuckler does (albeit they debuff different things). The only thing you can say is that Swashys get the hate transfer like assassins do (our only real utility discounting Apply Poison).The issue, again, is not that all assassins now suddenly suck as some people have said. It's that other classes have received AA lines that give them "free" DPS, including your own class that received the AA's we hoped we would get, giving you extra DPS that you don't have to do anything extra for! <span>:smileyhappy:How about this, then. If you were a raid leader (maybe you are, I don't know), and there were say 5 spots left in your raid and your had 8 people in your guild that wanted to come. You had 1 ranger, 2 assassins, 2 swashbucklers and 3 LB necromancers.Who would you take?</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Outerspace on <span class=date_text>01-05-2007</span> <span class=time_text>08:34 AM</span>

Satie

01-06-2007, 02:17 AM

<div><blockquote><hr>LoreLady wrote:Outerspace, they are comparable not identical.. In terms of what swashys have to offer is comparable to an assassin not identical.. In what I have seen in my own guild and others (currently looking for a new guild for various reasons) the swashbuckler doesnt beat t1 dps in raids..If you look at the swashbuckler class to the brigand class, the brigand class has much more in debuffs (IE dispatch), the swashbuckler class in comparison has much more in damage.. So where "should" this leave swashbucklers? Well, by the looks of zonewide parsings swash bucklers are between t1 dps and brigands.. They arent past t1 dps..The thing that keeps t1 dps from skyrocketting far ahead from every other class is simply its utility, every t1 dps class gets some form of it. Currently t1 dps is pretty much in the same ballpark in terms of utility and dps..As stated many many times in this fourm, this new expansion is about skill now.. Getting wrapped up in the old ways isent going to get you far, I have seen a wide range of classes and parsings come through and so has everyone else.. I can honestly say that swashbucklers are high on the dps chain, but are not over the top.. The only thing I have a problem with is the necromancer easy button.. If you are being outdamaged by a swash - its time you looked at A - more zonewide parsings, B - looked at yourself with respect to the other classes around you.. The only diffrence now, is assassins now have to struggle to be the top dps, rather than slack.<hr></blockquote>Lol, are you [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]? Stick to the ranger forums pls. This is the biggest bowl of crap i have heard in a long time.If swashies are ok now then i guess their numbers trippled durring kos because they were a 'crappy' class before? Those 'comparable' debuffs will have a spot for the swashy in a raid even if they were doing dirge dps, get your facts straight. You could argue during kos that they were overpowered and now that they are even better we have mis lorelady barking here trying to make a 'point' otherwise?I dont even wanna get into the last paragraph, just WOW, can you say skewed perseption?I am sorry but you have said absolutly nothing in this tread that would hint you have the slightest idea what you are talking about. I would suggest you try to put atlest 10% truth into a post when trying to make a point.Satinah/Salinah</div>

Gerdos

01-06-2007, 06:14 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Outerspace wrote:<BR> As I have said on another thread, I'm always top on the parser in my guild by several hundred DPS. But we are not a raid guild, just a casual guild that does some raids. We don't have a perfect setup. I am not being out-DPS'd by Swashbucklers, Rangers or Wizards.<BR><BR>I was simply saying that comparing Swashy utility to Assassin utility is silly because they quite clearly get more debuffs and utility: we get more nukes. Brigands get Dispatch but other than that they have the same number of debuffs as a Swashbuckler does (albeit they debuff different things). The only thing you can say is that Swashys get the hate transfer like assassins do (our only real utility discounting Apply Poison).<BR><BR>The issue, again, is not that all assassins now suddenly suck as some people have said. It's that other classes have received AA lines that give them "free" DPS, including your own class that received the AA's we hoped we would get, giving you extra DPS that you don't have to do anything extra for! <SPAN>:smileyhappy:<BR><BR>How about this, then. If you were a raid leader (maybe you are, I don't know), and there were say 5 spots left in your raid and your had 8 people in your guild that wanted to come. You had 1 ranger, 2 assassins, 2 swashbucklers and 3 LB necromancers.<BR><BR>Who would you take?<BR></SPAN> <P>Message Edited by Outerspace on <SPAN class=date_text>01-05-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:34 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Good question, I'd take the best 5 players, regardless of class. If evenly matched, I'd want 1 of each, and than 5th spot goes to whoever was the best player available with a leaning towards a 2nd LB necro.</P> <P>Re: Assassins AA trees (not something i really want to go into in this thread), but i agree they need to be looked at. Not so much in providing equivalent DPS upgrades as other classes recieved, but more functionality and usefullness to a raiding assassin.</P> <P> </P> <P>Sati, you've attacked lorelady without providing 1 scrap of detail to support anything contrary to his views or support your views. Who's the bigger fool??</P> <DIV>Lorelady is spot on in almost every area except utility comparisons, but even there he recognises that class utility is the determing factor to dps limits.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would suggest, next time you want to attack someone, consider what your contributing to the discussion ... because frankly, you look like an idiot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P><BR> </P>

judged_one

01-06-2007, 07:12 AM

<DIV> <DIV>Nah, fact is, some people just suck. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They'd rather find excuses then face facts that they just may not be as good as they once thought they were. EoF is going to sort out the great players from the good, and the good from the average or bad, and some people just aren't going to be comfortable with what they see. That's what happens when class imbalance (like assassins were for KoS) hides a players real skill level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I count, 1, 2 .. 3, on this page alone that are in denial. Rather then attacking people who know what their talking about .. you'd achieve more by learning what those in the know do differently to you and begin to really learn group dynamics and what that does to the dps slippery pole. If i played any class, especially a dps class where perfomance can be easily measured ... i'd be paying attention to the opinions and advice of those with proven track records or players who consistently set the benchmark. I'd want to learn where i can improve and why my results aren't as good as the established players.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ignorance is no excuse for stupidity and shifting blame wont hide mediocrity.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will love to see you post some parse before making bold statement like that.</DIV></DIV>

HellRaiserXX

01-06-2007, 07:49 AM

<DIV>You know I had this really long and thought out post going and then I just decided to say screw it. If you still think that assassins are underpowered now after all the discussion thats happened than there is no convincing you. You obviously just dont understand and cant look at the big picture. Assassins are not underpowered, some other classes are overpowered atm. Assassins are still a Tier 1 DPS class. If you arent at least keeping up with the other Tier 1 classes than you probably do indeed suck. Tier 1 classes (Assassins, Wiz, Locks, and Rangers) are more balanced now than they have ever been and in perfect conditions any one of them could be #1 at any given time and calling for a boost to assassins in order to keep up with an overpowered class is just asking to make us overpowered as well and that is really rediculous to me. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If I had to choose Outerspace assuming they are all of fairly equal ability and gear I would take one of each and then the 5th would probably be a swashy simply because an extra traumatic swipe and 1 more AE immunity couldnt hurt, but it really would have nothing to do with their DPS unless one was a lot better player than the other and it could very well come down to who I liked more or even random. You really dont ever need more than 1 of each class. Good question btw. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You havent really shown anything substantial yourself Hearth, just a few encounters and a zonewide with only one name on it and you didnt tell us the zone so it couldve very well been Courts for all we know. </DIV>

Jvaloth

01-06-2007, 08:26 AM

<P>I'm sorry Raina but you have no grounds to stand on. By your own admission you do not have a swashbuckler in your raid force so you don't see the bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] every single raid.</P> <P>Like I've said over and over and over, I was #1 on my parse pre EoF. I was outparsing 1 swashy by 300 and another by 600-800.</P> <P>Now I am substantially behind both of them. I'm losing parses to one of the swashy by 300-1000 every fight and the other swashy that I used to own either is tied with me or 200-300 ahead of me.</P> <P>This is with the same group make up and gear. </P> <P>You're telling me that somehow I forgot how to play my class or that I am not skilled is a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing joke. When you have the same gear, same groups and an expansion comes out and almost over night your parsing #3 or #4 soemthing is wrong. </P> <P>When swashies are parsing 2500-2800 on a single target boss mob, there is something wrong. </P> <P>I don't give a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] what you guys say at this point. The parsers doesn't lie.</P> <P>I'm curious tho, how many of you assassins that say we are right where we are supposed to be are in the MT group? I've lost my spot in there because swashy does more damage both single target and AE -=AND=- has a higher agro transfer. Heh. F'n joke.</P>

Outerspace

01-06-2007, 08:34 AM

<div><blockquote><hr>HellRaiserXX wrote:<div>Assassins are not underpowered, some other classes are overpowered atm. </div><hr></blockquote>I agree, but look at the cause. These other classes became overpowered because of the AA lines they were given by SOE. There are two choices for SOE: buff our AA lines or nerf everyone else.</div>

prochu

01-06-2007, 09:05 AM

<P>ok i will give my situation before speak.</P> <P>i have the best equipment that u can get of kos,of eof i have band of darkness,rapier of darkness and dark bangle.</P> <P>i have been everytime in MT goup(that many assassin tell that it is uber when it sucx because u only get 50 dps from coercer when we haveenought selfbufed).even now i am at MT group still</P> <P>in eof i was parsing around 400-700 more dps that second on parser on everymob.</P> <P>now with eof i only can win 30 % or so of parses and zonewide i cant tell nothing because my guild dont get zonewide parses.really i got very ungry with assa dps so one day i forced to the swas to be in MT group and i moved me to caster group with the illusionist(i am officer and RL sometimes)and i was doing easy 500-700 more dps than before,my conclusion have been that assassins cant be tier 1 dps if we havent haste but if we have haste we can be tier 1 dps</P> <P>but the fact is that some clases as necros or swas are doing the same dps than me when they have utility that i havent and yes i dont mind tell it,i want that soe nerf them because soe never will boost to all tier 1 dps class.</P> <P>moreover not only soe have given more dps to tier 2 class as necros,they have got also utility aa, so i dont know why we cant get utility aas or aa that boost our dps</P>

judged_one

01-06-2007, 12:41 PM

<DIV>I love it when some assassin have this illusion of I am the best assassin, and the rest of you should go learn how to play...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For these people, show me a 2.5k+ single named parse before you are qualify to say that stuff. FYI I can hit 3on single fight, but guess what Swashy is hitting 3k+. Simple fact is we are no longer t1 single DPS. And it is even worst with 3+ mobs. People are hitting 3-4k while I will be doing great wiht 2k+. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fact is we got nothin, NOTHIN in out EoF AA. While most class picked up 500-1000 DPS easy. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So be angry, post and make your dissapointment known. It is not right when I don't even care for AA.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also For our class armour the 7 bonus is such bs. Rangers get 10% Double Attack as their bonus.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So I am sick of this sorry [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] discrimination against assassin. And this is obvious a ninja nerf to assassin, with this dirty AA, stinky Class bonus.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So shuffle it up the rear end soe.</DIV><p>Message Edited by judged_one on <span class=date_text>01-05-2007</span> <span class=time_text>11:44 PM</span>

prochu

01-06-2007, 04:23 PM

<P>i am the first that posted saying that assassins aa was useless that it was a joke but it is useless,moderator deleted my post and GMs dont read those forums and if they read it they dont mind.</P> <P>so really we cant post saying that our aa are the worst of all everquests and SOE is killing to the everquest2 because they are a noobs that cant read and do changes that assassin that know our class have been posting neither pay with our money to some noob that dont know nothing about assassin and i dont think if abot everquest2 also to do our aa tree</P> <P>also i posted too saying that our set is the worst of all because while we get 60 or so mroe damage with finishing blow ranger get 10 % (our % on that spell)more prok change on ofensive prok and with all set 10 % double attack when w get 10 % more poison (uber moreover it is very logical seeing that they have given us hemotoxin aa and not caustic)</P>

Kimira

01-06-2007, 04:31 PM

<DIV>It's a broken record but i have to wonder what some of you are doing, last deathtoll i parsed over 2k zonewide and as for any named 2.5k plus, eof off the top of my head i can think of a parse i did 2.6k+ on othysis in freethinkers but that was a few weeks ago.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We are far from nerfed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>do we need tweaks? subjectional</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>do other classes need to be looked into? hell yes</DIV>

Malaqai

01-06-2007, 05:05 PM

<div></div><div></div>Essence of FearAllies: (04:00) 2995711 | 12482.13 [Fury 1-Incinerate-25662]Assassin (me) 352269 | 1467.79Wizard 1 342177 | 1425.74Brigand 1 304217 | 1267.57Ranger 1 296778 | 1236.58Wizard 2 248693 | 1036.22Swashbuckler 236223 | 984.26SK 1 221270 | 921.96Illusionist 202556 | 843.98SK 2 188943 | 787.26Berserker 129430 | 539.29GnillawAllies: (04:51) 3346606 | 11500.36 [Wizard 1-Ice Nova-19616]Assassin (me) 509184 | 1749.77Wizard 1 449564 | 1544.89Brigand 1 365021 | 1254.37Wizard 2 320865 | 1102.63Swashbuckler 300285 | 1031.91SK 1 263404 | 905.17Illusionist 241084 | 828.47SK 2 199244 | 684.69Berserker 186188 | 639.82Ranger 1 163813 | 562.93(last named really no good for showing dps... as mages arent allowed to nuke etc.)LabsDoomwright VakritztAllies: (01:05 1140573 | 16773.13 [Wizard 1-Fusion-16527]Conjuror 130794 | 1923.44Swashbuckler 118176 | 1737.88Ranger 1 111663 | 1642.10Wizard 1 108115 | 1589.93Assassin (me) 99920 | 1469.41Bruiser 194984 | 1396.82Warlock 1 94374 | 1387.85SK 2 72689 | 1068.96Brigand 2 69367 | 1020.10Brigand 1 62694 | 921.97Pardas PreddAllies: (01:15) 1068730 | 14249.73 [Wizard 1-Ice Nova-17723]Wizard 1 132895 | 1771.93Assassin (me) 117442 | 1565.89 (mob was annoying, jumping around the room cos we only had MT grab adds)Ranger 1 93272 | 1243.63Bruiser 183712 | 1116.16Swashbuckler 78156 | 1042.08Conjuror 77363 | 1031.51Bruiser 274202 | 989.36Brigand 1 67270 | 896.93SK 2 62092 | 827.89Warlock 1 57691 | 769.21Slavering AlzidAllies: (01:52) 1746105 | 15590.22 [Assassin (me)-Decapitate-17186]Assassin (me) 246158 | 2197.84Ranger 1 161111 | 1438.49Brigand 2 146946 | 1312.02Wizard 1 142306 | 1270.59Conjuror 130725 | 1167.19Bruiser 1128235 | 1144.96Brigand 1 118299 | 1056.24Swashbuckler 102192 | 912.43SK 2 96851 | 864.74Bruiser 295229 | 850.26Berserker 83568 | 746.14triple namedAllies: (01:52) 1247817 | 11141.22 [Assassin (me)-Decapitate-19537]Assassin (me) 176242 | 1573.59Wizard 1 147150 | 1313.84Brigand 2 117466 | 1048.80Ranger 1 111573 | 996.19Swashbuckler 108873 | 972.08Conjuror 108543 | 969.13Bruiser 299449 | 887.94Brigand 1 97453 | 870.12Berserker 58300 | 520.54Bruiser 152651 | 470.10Uncaged AlzidAllies: (01:35) 1509479 | 15889.25 [Assassin (me)-Decapitate-18537]Assassin (me) 199305 | 2097.95Wizard 1 164692 | 1733.60Ranger 1 149001 | 1568.43Brigand 2 148044 | 1558.36Swashbuckler 123922 | 1304.44Bruiser 1105880 | 1114.53Brigand 1 97477 | 1026.07Bruiser 285222 | 897.07SK 2 80459 | 846.94Warlock 1 73613 | 774.87eye guyAllies: (02:04) 864535 | 6972.06 [Wizard 1-Ice Nova-10961]Wizard 1 163184 | 1316.00Conjuror 126087 | 1016.83SK 2 85015 | 685.60Warlock 1 76555 | 617.38Coercer 67831 | 547.02Assassin (me) 63257 | 510.14 (melee resistant mob, til it gets to like 5%.. annoying.. wasnt really trying :O )Paladin-jay :O 51602 | 416.15Ranger 1 38923 | 313.90Brigand 2 36957 | 298.04Bruiser 132748 | 264.10Doomsworn ZatrachAllies: (02:22) 1487624 | 10476.23 [Assassin (me)-Decapitate-22752]Wizard 1 217930 | 1534.72Assassin (me) 211751 | 1491.20Bruiser 1165916 | 1168.42Ranger 1 137174 | 966.01Swashbuckler 134390 | 946.41Brigand 1 122085 | 859.75Warlock 1 112607 | 793.01SK 2 93061 | 655.36Berserker 92816 | 653.63Conjuror 51729 | 364.29CoroslanderAllies: (01:47) 1155451 | 10798.61 [Wizard 1-Ice Nova-14396]Assassin (me) 153974 | 1439.01 - mostly ranged this fight, few CAs, didn't feel like finding „the spot“ for CAs and not getting hit back with his armour shield... actually tried here, difference of about 1k dps as apposed to the eye ball mob before <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)Bruiser 1144703 | 1352.37Ranger 1 132993 | 1242.93Wizard 1 122801 | 1147.67Warlock 1 103685 | 969.02SK 2 83762 | 782.82Brigand 2 71023 | 663.77Swashbuckler 58031 | 542.35Brigand 1 57292 | 535.44Conjuror 53646 | 501.36eye guy 2Allies: (00:47) 791896 | 16848.85 [Assassin (me)-Decapitate-23046]Assassin (me) 118703 | 2525.60 – test your might mob, usually break 3k easily on this, no haste this timeWizard 1 94934 | 2019.87Bruiser 176063 | 1618.36Ranger 1 57595 | 1225.43Swashbuckler 51199 | 1089.34Conjuror 50736 | 1079.49SK 2 49263 | 1048.15Brigand 1 44516 | 947.15Brigand 2 44163 | 939.64Bruiser 243757 | 931.00Vyemm (i was dead most of fight , had trouble with mob in wall and frontaled half the raid when MT was turning it)Allies: (02:39) 913869 | 5747.60 [Wizard 1-Fusion-12839]Brigand 2 114965 | 723.05Swashbuckler 92718 | 583.13Assassin (me) 90594 | 569.77SK 2 86843 | 546.18Warlock 1 82057 | 516.08Bruiser 280872 | 508.63Wizard 1 80176 | 504.25Ranger 1 64041 | 402.77Berserker 51851 | 326.11Fury 2 42027 | 264.32Alzid PrimeAllies: (01:13) 1174623 | 16090.73 [Wizard 1-Ice Nova-17609]Assassin (me) 146104 | 2001.43Wizard 1 120279 | 1647.66Bruiser 1103932 | 1423.73Brigand 2 98656 | 1351.45Swashbuckler 90329 | 1237.38Ranger 1 85425 | 1170.21Bruiser 277062 | 1055.64SK 2 75132 | 1029.21Berserker 57284 | 784.71Bruiser 2 - templar two-boxing 53986 | 739.53labs zone parse (all encounters my parser showed as complete)Allies: (57:31) 40438278 | 11717.84 [Assassin (me)-Decapitate-25200]Assassin (me) 4987824 | 1445.33Wizard 1 4022335 | 1165.56Ranger 1 3527405 | 1022.14Bruiser 13438377 | 996.34Swashbuckler 3233801 | 937.06Brigand 2 2613421 | 757.29SK 2 2491472 | 721.96Brigand 1 2436873 | 706.14Warlock 1 2365599 | 685.48Conjuror 2229076 | 645.92lyceum zone parse (same as above)Allies: (40:20 29831661 | 12286.52 [Fury 1-Incinerate-25662]Assassin (me) 4208339 | 1733.25Wizard 1 3046311 | 1254.66Swashbuckler 2386350 | 1182.85Brigand 1 2772894 | 1142.05Ranger 1 2520946 | 1038.28Wizard 2 2482341 | 1022.38SK 1 2230471 | 918.65SK 2 2042146 | 841.08Illusionist 2024859 | 833.96Berserker 1558598 | 641.93cut off the top 10 in each one. if id have known i was being posted on the assassin forums maybe id have tried harder :OThat's the parse our wizzie sent me, the last couple of raids.It's all a bit skewed, we basically did our backup zones and three-grouped Labs and Lyceum as people are still on holidays, families etc. And Vanguard BETA <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.On both raids, we had 2 buffers and like 6 DPS people. When some died (3 of us on Vyemm) it took forever. Wizzie didn't sent lyceum boss parse, but that took like 7-8 minutes at least.Some guys were two-boxing and warlock and conj had to AFK a bit etc.Labs zone parse is especially almost not even worthy to look at, since half the raid is jumping around the zone like when you're doing Nest with a group of 70s. Til we wiped on the guy with two adds cos of the trauma debuff, noone took it seriously.I was also leading that raid, and I gotta tell you it's hard to play properly replying to tells about this and that every 30 seconds. >Wiped on the Doomsworn guy before Corsolander once and on Vyemm on first pull, tank got KBed (somehow) too far.My grp was:MT (zerker)TemplarMysticCoercer (who was AFK for half the zone  )ConjurorMeAs I had only my DT bracelet haste, I was switching between Vyemm's Fang and Grinning Dirk of Horror, GDOH with Honed Reflexes etc.... Was doing some tests too, how useful it is when you're low on haste.Lyceum we were 3 grouping with only two buffers (illu, troub) and like 6 t1/t2 DPS.Wizzie didn't post Villucidae parse, since casters are forced to run around the room kicking flowers half the fight. I died twice on that fight before the mob went down, was in MT grp for hate, used hate reducers etc, still got aggro 2x, second time after i revived. My parse on that was 1.1 k IIRC, with two deaths, but you're free to backstab the thing, no AOEs etc. Wizard and swashy both died a couple of times too. Wiped on last named a couple of times before getting him, wiped on Gnorbl twice, only had one enchanter, was hard to keep the stuff mezzed.My grp was:ZerkerWardenTemplarSKIllusionist (doesn't have double attack AA for me yet  )MeMy gear is:Head – Crown of Cynosure (the Brain helmet one )Cloak – War Mantle of Rallos ZekShoulders – Nemesis ShoulderpadsChest – Nightfall CoatBracers – Hurricane Forged BracersGloves – Reinforced Bloodsoaked GauntletsLegs – Nightfall LeggingsFeet – Nightfall Boots (never bid on nemesis chest, feet and legs, upgrade was to marginal to bid DKP for it <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )Neck – MOAEarring – depends... Planar Orb of the Wanderer , Fitz's Earcog, Kaladim Diamond, Tunare Orb for sh*ts and giggles, etc... Depends on resistsRing – Ring of Relkentinnar, Band of Songs... some others for resistsBracelet – Amulet of the Forsworn, Silver Bracelet of Rage.... some other for resists, Dragonscale one for soloingWeapons – Grinning Dirk of Horror, Dirk of Negativity.. on 99% of the time, Vyemm's fang and Q Cutlass as backupBow -  Rain Caller or bow of Firanvious Fury <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_profile.vm?characterId=179339111Most of the stuff is adrorned, haste 23%, DPS 89% solo. STR 550 (with God Pet), AGI 650, STA 350, INT 150, WIS 100.. Around those numbers, solo buffed in D stance... Take away Adroit Defence (ad3) AGI buff for offensive stats.Missing only a couple of t6 masters, one t7.Anyway, hopefully I can get you a proper parse with a normal, full raid in a bit, with the buffers there, more DPS etc.Not really sure of how much use this is since we only had 3 grps, were low on buffs and DPS.. But yeah,, get you a proper one soon.One more thing... For people thinking swashy/brig utility is comparable to assassin ones??? Stop kidding yourselves. My alt is a t7 brigand, betrayed from swashy in the 50s.... I cannot tell how much more fun it is playing him atm instead of my assassin. Asn's AA are at 87 and are only moving cos of raid mobs, brig's getting all kinds of quests done cos I got something to look forward to after I get an AA point to distribute. Half their CAs are debuffs, etc. Soloing and grp-wise it's not even close (stuns, interrupts, grp stealth etc)... Raid-wise? Puhlease. Rogues are debuff-dps (with some added utility like swashy hate transfer)... I'm DPS, hate transfer... And that's it.DPS aside, rogue utility is miles ahead of pred utility. Not even close.<p>Message Edited by Malaqai on <span class=date_text>01-06-2007</span> <span class=time_text>04:15 AM</span>

HellRaiserXX

01-06-2007, 11:52 PM

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jvaloth wrote:<BR> <P>I'm sorry Raina but you have no grounds to stand on. By your own admission you do not have a swashbuckler in your raid force so you don't see the bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] every single raid.</P> <P>Like I've said over and over and over, I was #1 on my parse pre EoF. I was outparsing 1 swashy by 300 and another by 600-800.</P> <P>Now I am substantially behind both of them. I'm losing parses to one of the swashy by 300-1000 every fight and the other swashy that I used to own either is tied with me or 200-300 ahead of me.</P> <P>This is with the same group make up and gear. </P> <P><FONT color=#ff9933>You're telling me that somehow I forgot how to play my class or that I am not skilled is a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing joke. When you have the same gear, same groups and an expansion comes out and almost over night your parsing #3 or #4 soemthing is wrong. </FONT></P> <P>When swashies are parsing 2500-2800 on a single target boss mob, there is something wrong. </P> <P>I don't give a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] what you guys say at this point. The parsers doesn't lie.</P> <P>I'm curious tho, how many of you assassins that say we are right where we are supposed to be are in the MT group? I've lost my spot in there because swashy does more damage both single target and AE -=AND=- has a higher agro transfer. Heh. F'n joke.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>That isnt at all what I am saying, you are misunderstanding. Like others have said and I agree, a swashy with equal gear should outparse an assassin because of their superior buffs and add in grp buffs and the gap widens further. That doesnt mean you suddenly suck and that doesnt mean you are no longer are Tier 1 class. Jvaloth you are getting beat by just swashys? or other classes as well. This is the thing, swashy high parsing is an anomoly, they made out huge with the stat cap increases and in some part AAs. Swashy AAs are not that great in all honesty DPSwise, they buff utility more than anything, lower reuse on Inspiration by over a minute is pretty huge tho. Basically, there is nothing you can do about being outparced by a swashy except hope something gets changed. Take swashys out of the equation, how well are you parsing? if you are still parsing #1 most of the time and if you are beat its only by T1 classes than you are doing the best you can and have nothing to be ashamed about. If you are suddenly being beat by everyone than something is wrong with how you play and you have some work to do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lol I would say let the swashy have the spot in the MT grp, have them put you in a real DPS grp, you will probably parse higher. I dont know how you set up your raids, but in my guild when Im in MT grp I drop like 200+DPS zonewide just cause I have hardly any buffs. Theres only two reasons in my mind for an assassin to be in the MT grp. #1 your tank sucks and cant hold aggro with just a coercer and some raids use a dirge as well or on the other side your DPS doesnt know how to control its aggro and still parse high. #2 Your MT is not the usual MT, we tank Labs with an SK sometimes just to mix it up and they would need the extra hate. If you are stuck in the MT grp than you are definately going to have problems in EoF staying on top. It was possible in KoS because even in MT grp you could still hit the stat caps, now with EoF the MT grp just doesnt offer a lot of buffs to an assassin because all their useful buffs are on the MT. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Assassins probably are not going to be #1 on single target mobs anymore and here is why. Burst DPS. Up until EoF assassins were really the only class with any kind of burst DPS capabilities. Concealment lets us ring off 5-6 high dmg attacks in just a few seconds and since most trash encounters generally die in under a minute that burst DPS is going to shoot the parse way up. In EoF a lot of other classes now have burst DPS capabilities and with greater dmg capabilities. Wizards and Necros cast 1 ability and they do more dmg than all of our stealth attacks but together. Swashys are also now more of a burst DPS class and they dont have to take the time to stealth. You can still parse 2500 on single target boss mobs. Talked to an assassin the other day who did 2500 on Vyemm and 2400 on Alzid right after. Ive gone over 2000 on Vyemm before and getting over 2k on Alzid is really easy. <BR></DIV> <P>Message Edited by HellRaiserXX on <SPAN class=date_text>01-06-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:53 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by HellRaiserXX on <SPAN class=date_text>01-06-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:05 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by HellRaiserXX on <span class=date_text>01-06-2007</span> <span class=time_text>11:06 AM</span>

Gerdos

01-07-2007, 12:12 AM

<P>/agreed 100%</P> <P> </P>

Armill

01-07-2007, 04:34 AM

Unless your in a mt group with a zerker, dirge, defiler, fury/warden, templar, and you, thats not bad and thats what i usually get put into.

judged_one

01-08-2007, 11:49 AM

<DIV>Outerspace, they are comparable not identical.. In terms of what swashys have to offer is comparable to an assassin not identical.. In what I have seen in my own guild and others (currently looking for a new guild for various reasons) the swashbuckler doesnt beat t1 dps in raids..<BR><BR>If you look at the swashbuckler class to the brigand class, the brigand class has much more in debuffs (IE dispatch), the swashbuckler class in comparison has much more in damage.. So where "should" this leave swashbucklers? Well, by the looks of zonewide parsings swash bucklers are between t1 dps and brigands.. They arent past t1 dps..<BR><BR>The thing that keeps t1 dps from skyrocketting far ahead from every other class is simply its utility, every t1 dps class gets some form of it. Currently t1 dps is pretty much in the same ballpark in terms of utility and dps..<BR><BR>As stated many many times in this fourm, this new expansion is about skill now.. Getting wrapped up in the old ways isent going to get you far, I have seen a wide range of classes and parsings come through and so has everyone else.. I can honestly say that swashbucklers are high on the dps chain, but are not over the top.. The only thing I have a problem with is the necromancer easy button.. If you are being outdamaged by a swash - its time you looked at A - more zonewide parsings, B - looked at yourself with respect to the other classes around you.. The only diffrence now, is assassins now have to struggle to be the top dps, rather than slack</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please crawl back to whatever class forum you belong. How do you make fun of Necro, when 60%+ of you Damage is off A: Melee and B:Caustic. While 10% From CoB.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please MR swashy explain to me how LB is so much harder than Hurrican + REach and Inspiration is up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So if you think Swashy should remotely come close to T1 DPS such as Assassin, Ranger, WArlock and Wizard, you are a fool.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Swashy will be nerf next tier, and SOE need to look at Hurricane and Reach and proc. I don't think they realize the extend of damage, when they stacked up with inspiration CoB Dirge Extra Proc percentage, 15 sec aoe group immunity. Swashy is easily the EASY MODE OF EQ2 now. Oh did I mention that Reach means no close range aoe for swashy anymore.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>gg, but nice try.</DIV>

Jvaloth

01-08-2007, 09:27 PM

<P>All I know is I work my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] off to get 1800-2000 on a parse and I'm blown away by 500-800 dps by a swashy every fight. Single target, group targets, it doesnt even matter. Its a joke... and a bad one at that.</P> <P> </P> <P>That above parse showing the swashy doing 900... haha thats a crappy Swashy, I'm telling you that right now. Every swashy in my guild doesnt parse lower than 1600 on any fight and generally hover around 1900-2300 on average. (Sometimes peaking at around 3k).</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Jvaloth on <span class=date_text>01-08-2007</span> <span class=time_text>08:29 AM</span>

HazNpho

01-10-2007, 12:45 AM

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>LoreLady wrote:The point I was trying to make earlier was not to under estimate your own utility, apply poison, hate transfer, was more what I was getting at..While there is a diffrence in utility, they are comparable.. The question stands is how much is 1 point of debuffing worth to one point of dps? How much should both be weighed in? While a swashbuckler should not damage an assassin classwide, a highend swash should outdamage a low end assassin.. The question is where does one become better than the other in terms of dps, and how much??I am not about to give out numbers on where swashbucklers are at as a whole - to much data to many people, nor can I make a large spreadsheet on them due to factors like double attack. What I can give is my own experiances of where our swashbuckler is at, and assassin but even that isent evidence enough to bring to the table. What I would like to know is the direct effect of debuffs against a mob, how much does 1 point of mitigation decrease effect 1 point of 1 persons dps? what about 6 people? 12 people? If we can factor this in, then we have a greater understanding of where t2 dps should sit to t1 dps.. Or have a greater understanding of why t2 dps is so close to t1..Personally, if I were to design EQ2 I would strip all t1 of all forms of utility accept for root and stun.. And give every other class debuffs that suited that down the scale of dps.. <hr></blockquote>Um... think you just nailed it on the head, 1 point of DPS to 1 point buff... well, now swashie can match or beat us 1 point of DPS to 1 point of DPS, but they also have buffs, so what alot are saying is that we are severely under equiped when it comes to groups/raids and even solo. I don't know if this still stands but they went and put Assassin in the Rogue sub class? So are they saying we should be equal DPS to a Swashy/Brig, Equal Debuff/Buff to them as well as equal quality to solo/tank?This is where all the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing comes in, we are second rate now due to the changes, I'd hardly consider this being balanced. And if you do... well its no wonder you get flamed when you post. Yeah, I too have said stupid things, we all do, but the majority holds the floor like in everything here. And the majority including myself, do not think its right that a swashy has soo much more to bring to the table and now they can even out DPS us. We are the one class that I'm aware of that is soley DPS, we don't have anything other then that, the reason we have the few buffs we have, Hate Transfer/Apply Poison is to help the MT keep agro off us. Those skills are useless if a swash out DPS's us, if they are going to hand everything over to the other T1 classes (which in my honest opinion shouldn't be T1), they may as well give them our buffs so they can do their job since we can't anymore.And saying that a wizard/necro/conj needs to be carefull not to pull agro just puncuates my point. They should not be gimping their attacks so they don't get agro, so why give them such strong attacks? The next thing Sony is likely to do is give them hate transfer so they can go balls out without getting agro, and knowing sony, it'll likely be some godly number like 50%.</div><p>Message Edited by HazNpho on <span class=date_text>01-09-2007</span> <span class=time_text>11:46 AM</span>

HazNpho

01-10-2007, 01:03 AM

<blockquote><hr>Gerdos wrote:<div></div> <p>:smileyhappy:</p> <div>Nah, fact is, some people just suck. </div> <div> </div> <div>They'd rather find excuses then face facts that they just may not be as good as they once thought they were. EoF is going to sort out the great players from the good, and the good from the average or bad, and some people just aren't going to be comfortable with what they see. That's what happens when class imbalance (like assassins were for KoS) hides a players real skill level.</div> <div> </div> <div>I count, 1, 2 .. 3, on this page alone that are in denial. Rather then attacking people who know what their talking about .. you'd achieve more by learning what those in the know do differently to you and begin to really learn group dynamics and what that does to the dps slippery pole. If i played any class, especially a dps class where perfomance can be easily measured ... i'd be paying attention to the opinions and advice of those with proven track records or players who consistently set the benchmark. I'd want to learn where i can improve and why my results aren't as good as the established players.</div> <div> </div> <div>Ignorance is no excuse for stupidity and shifting blame wont hide mediocrity.</div><hr></blockquote>That still doesn't explain how a new swashy can out parse a rather good assassin. Take YoYo's example, he goes 10 minutes on a swashie and is outparsing his 2 years played assassin, I hardly consider this to be balanced, weeding the good from the bad was something that existed before this big slap in the face. Now its weeding the good assassins vs the mediocre swashies.<div></div>

LoreLady

01-10-2007, 08:00 PM

<div><blockquote><hr>HazNpho wrote:<blockquote><hr>Gerdos wrote:<div></div> <p>:smileyhappy:</p> <div>Nah, fact is, some people just suck. </div> <div> </div> <div>They'd rather find excuses then face facts that they just may not be as good as they once thought they were. EoF is going to sort out the great players from the good, and the good from the average or bad, and some people just aren't going to be comfortable with what they see. That's what happens when class imbalance (like assassins were for KoS) hides a players real skill level.</div> <div> </div> <div>I count, 1, 2 .. 3, on this page alone that are in denial. Rather then attacking people who know what their talking about .. you'd achieve more by learning what those in the know do differently to you and begin to really learn group dynamics and what that does to the dps slippery pole. If i played any class, especially a dps class where perfomance can be easily measured ... i'd be paying attention to the opinions and advice of those with proven track records or players who consistently set the benchmark. I'd want to learn where i can improve and why my results aren't as good as the established players.</div> <div> </div> <div>Ignorance is no excuse for stupidity and shifting blame wont hide mediocrity.</div><hr></blockquote>That still doesn't explain how a new swashy can out parse a rather good assassin. Take YoYo's example, he goes 10 minutes on a swashie and is outparsing his 2 years played assassin, I hardly consider this to be balanced, weeding the good from the bad was something that existed before this big slap in the face. Now its weeding the good assassins vs the mediocre swashies.<div></div><hr></blockquote>How longs your downtime between fights??A swashy's dps comes the highest once every 3-5 mins, because that is the refresh on many of there heavier CA's.. A swash cant sustain continual dps like a pred can, however if you have alot of downtime your going to find yourself blown out of the water due to going too slow.. I just finished getting into a new guild on myserver, and I raided with <b>many</b> other raiding guilds and I can honestly tell you that on zonewide parsings and I can honestly tell you that out of those guilds, not one swash made it to the top parse ont he zonewide parse.. The onlytime a t2 made it to the top parse was in DT, and 1 t2 dps comming ontop out of 7 guilds tells me things are where they should be...<i>Note - the necro who made it topparse was later blown away by the guild I joined last weekend.. Not even comming close to the top, the assassin in that raid outdid his dps by ~400 dps averaging at 1.9k dps zonewide.</i>And my post above, it still a question of where one point of debuffing is to 1 point of dps.. Remember, brigs are behind swashy's in terms of dps because of debilitate.. There is a reason why theres a diffrence between the two - and the above question is why.. Just as theres a diffrence in dps from assassins and swashbucklers when you look at the zonewides.<b>Seriously, you guys are on the burden of proof right now.. I have not seen one zonewide parse that shows a swashbuckler so high on the parse that no one can touch them.. And that is what this post is all about is if t2 dps can actually go above t1 dps where many cannot keep up. A single parse will not show sufficient data due to the way the swashbuckler class works, only zonewide parsings will show enough data to prove or disprove what is being said up here.. Many of us are saying that the ballance is fine, those of you with a problem with that opinion please prove us wrong.</b></div>

Jvaloth

01-10-2007, 09:23 PM

<DIV>Not my problem that you are in a guild where your swashies suck. <shrug></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You saying that swashys cant sustain DPS is rubbish aswell. They can sustain 1800-2000 every fight and spike to 2800-3000 every 3 minutes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pretty funny, soon as all these posts started coming out saying that Swashies were over powered, the swashy in our guild stopped posting the zone wide parses for fear of getting nerfed. I don't blame her.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also when people post zone wide parses, they need to stick to one format. Either DPS or EXT DPS. Some people are posting EXT DPS and some people are posing DPS. DPS will always be higher than EXT DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

HellRaiserXX

01-10-2007, 10:04 PM

<P>Prove it Jvaloth. Im sick of hearing all the superficial evidence, lets see some actual parses. If your swashy is afraid of being nerfed than that is probably what needs to happen as much as that sucks and I dont wish that on anyone either that or all the Tier 1 classes need a boost to put them above, not just assassins. I would still say that swashys and necros are a bit overpowered to reply to Lore below me, but I doubt its to as great an extent as some are claiming.</P> <P>It doesnt really matter if you use ext DPS or DPS really, I think most use extDPS, my guild does anyway. The numbers for DPS will be inflated, but you will still see who is doing what. For purposes here, everyone should try to use extDPS since that what I am using, if you are using DPS please state that you are when posting. Also only use completed encounters in your data, if you wipe on anything pull that out before creating the zonewide. </P> <P>Message Edited by HellRaiserXX on <SPAN class=date_text>01-10-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:15 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by HellRaiserXX on <span class=date_text>01-10-2007</span> <span class=time_text>09:21 AM</span>

LoreLady

01-10-2007, 10:07 PM

<div><blockquote><hr>Jvaloth wrote:<div>Not my problem that you are in a guild where your swashies suck. <shrug></div> <div> </div> <div>You saying that swashys cant sustain DPS is rubbish aswell. They can sustain 1800-2000 every fight and spike to 2800-3000 every 3 minutes.</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>Pretty funny, soon as all these posts started coming out saying that Swashies were over powered, the swashy in our guild stopped posting the zone wide parses for fear of getting nerfed. I don't blame her.</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>Also when people post zone wide parses, they need to stick to one format. Either DPS or EXT DPS. Some people are posting EXT DPS and some people are posing DPS. DPS will always be higher than EXT DPS.</div> <div> </div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>Your the one with the burden of proof right now, I currently dont need to prove that swashy's are overpowered.. Because currently all the data on here proves otherwise.. So please, lets see your uber swashy's then.. I want to see a zonewide parse where a swashbuckler is averaging 2.8k or whatever you claim.Id love to be proven wrong, and say that my views are skewed.. But unfortunatly, as things are currently there is no reason to.</div>

Illyakuran

01-10-2007, 10:28 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jvaloth wrote:<BR> <DIV>Not my problem that you are in a guild where your swashies suck. <shrug></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You saying that swashys cant sustain DPS is rubbish aswell. They can sustain 1800-2000 every fight and spike to 2800-3000 every 3 minutes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pretty funny, soon as all these posts started coming out saying that Swashies were over powered, the swashy in our guild stopped posting the zone wide parses for fear of getting nerfed. I don't blame her.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also when people post zone wide parses, they need to stick to one format. Either DPS or EXT DPS. Some people are posting EXT DPS and some people are posing DPS. DPS will always be higher than EXT DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Dude, your guild has one level 70 swashbuckler, and that toon has not logged in since September.</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Illyakuran on <span class=date_text>01-10-2007</span> <span class=time_text>11:30 AM</span>

Malaqai

01-10-2007, 11:12 PM

Ouch. That last post hurt. <span>:smileywink:</span><div></div>

khufure

01-11-2007, 12:02 AM

So this post ended up being a bunch of whiners talking about swashy vs assassin. And nobody else even trying to help Assassin dps or study how assassin dps as the op wanted.When did we turn into rangers? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

Jvaloth

01-11-2007, 01:00 AM

<P>You're looking at the wrong guild, sorry to tell ya. I've got level 70's in two different guilds.</P> <P>Anyone could easily tweak the #'s in a cut n paste parse post so I don't read too much into this burden of proof crap.</P> <P>The parse posted in raid channel after every fight does not lie, however. </P> <P>If your swashies arent parsing 1st or 2nd place on every fight, someone in your guild needs to crack the whip on them.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>As far as the direction of this thread, there are many posts in Achievements and Assassin area that have already listed off 30 different AA's or new abilities, skills, or ideas that could improve our classes dps and/or its utility.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Jvaloth on <span class=date_text>01-10-2007</span> <span class=time_text>12:02 PM</span>

HellRaiserXX

01-11-2007, 01:02 AM

<P>Ya Im very disappointed right now. I hope people still post parses, thanks to those that did, but anything we do from now on will be tainted by the discussion that followed my original post and will only serve to prove or disprove if swashies are indeed parsing off the charts.</P> <P>Why would someone doctor a parse unless they had something to hide? Doing so would just further exascerbate the issue. I highly doubt anyone is going to doctor a parse to make assassins look better because there isn't anything wrong with us. Let the numbers tell the truth.</P><p>Message Edited by HellRaiserXX on <span class=date_text>01-10-2007</span> <span class=time_text>12:12 PM</span>

Illyakuran

01-11-2007, 01:36 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jvaloth wrote:<BR> <P>You're looking at the wrong guild, sorry to tell ya. I've got level 70's in two different guilds.</P> <P>Anyone could easily tweak the #'s in a cut n paste parse post so I don't read too much into this burden of proof crap.</P> <P>The parse posted in raid channel after every fight does not lie, however. </P> <P>If your swashies arent parsing 1st or 2nd place on every fight, someone in your guild needs to crack the whip on them.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>As far as the direction of this thread, there are many posts in Achievements and Assassin area that have already listed off 30 different AA's or new abilities, skills, or ideas that could improve our classes dps and/or its utility.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by Jvaloth on <SPAN class=date_text>01-10-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:02 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>My apologies then.</P> <P>So 2 active swashies?</P> <P> </P>

Jvaloth

01-11-2007, 02:10 AM

<P>Yup, 2 active swashies. Same as your guild. </P> <P><img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P>And again, I'm not asking for Swashies to get nerfed but come on... if they arent going to get nerfed assassins need some love, it really is that simple. Both swashies in my guild have already agreed that they are over powered and joke about it. When I was like... man you guys have 7 debuffs they were like 7?!?!? Way more than that!! Every single attack they have has some sort of debuff, stun, knockdown, etc attached to it. Every single one. I mean is really is crazy if you were to put the classes side by side and just go over each skill, what it does, what its recast is, etc etc... For a class with that much that it brings to the table, theres no way they should be anywhere close to assassin. </P> <P> </P> <P>But anyway, I'm pretty much done yapping on these forums regarding teh assassin AA/Swashy issue. I've said my peace. No matter of complaining/whining or suggestions will change anything. And when the assassin community has Raina and Lorelady who just love how the assassins are and think we are just right where we should be.... dumbing down the devs, we're doomed to a life time of 1.5 dps w/ zero utility and zero progression via AAs in this entire expansion. </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

LoreLady

01-11-2007, 02:45 AM

Riana was the person who started this post, I dont see how you see Riana against assassins at all.. We just want something to look at to prove your claims are valid.

Illyakuran

01-11-2007, 02:50 AM

<P>Well congrats on the Taranix kill.</P> <P>I do agree that assassin's need some loving and that the swashbuckler class is easier to play then the assassin class. I know I don't pull 2k+ dps, usually more like 1.4k, zone wide but then I'm usually in the mt group and not getting the nice illusionist, inquisitor, and coercer buffs. Yeah maybe I suck at playing my class but I think it's more about how buffs from other classes stack so well with rogues and a couple of other classes.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

LoreLady

01-11-2007, 03:00 AM

<div><blockquote><hr>Illyakuran wrote:<div></div> <p>Well congrats on the Taranix kill.</p> <p>I do agree that assassin's need some loving and that the swashbuckler class is easier to play then the assassin class. I know I don't pull 2k+ dps, usually more like 1.4k, zone wide but then I'm usually in the mt group and not getting the nice illusionist, inquisitor, and coercer buffs. Yeah maybe I suck at playing my class but I think it's more about how buffs from other classes stack so well with rogues and a couple of other classes.</p> <hr></blockquote>With this situation, a swashbuckler is likely to outdamage an assassin simply because of group setup.. The assassin is going to play a MUCH more important role than sheer dps in that kind of group, but the assassin isent going to be #1 on the parser..Look at it this way, your getting 1.4k now - where would you be in the proper group setup? 1.8k? 2k?? Who knows but you <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. I dont think you suck at playing your class as a previous poster has mentioned, I just think your being put in a diffrent role than DPS on that raid..And dont swashy's also have a hate transfer as well as a straight hate reduction.. Ask that your swash be placed up in the tank group and you down so you can see the diffrence in DPS due to groups.. You may be pleasently surprised on what your capable of.</div>

HellRaiserXX

01-11-2007, 05:51 AM

<DIV>"And when the assassin community has Raina and Lorelady who just love how the assassins are and think we are just right where we should be.... dumbing down the devs, we're doomed to a life time of 1.5 dps w/ zero utility and zero progression via AAs in this entire expansion."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Whatever dude, you keep challenging me on stuff and everyone else keeps confirming what I say. Lore and I are not the only people saying this stuff, anyone who understands this game will tell you the exact same things.</DIV>

LoreLady

01-11-2007, 08:07 AM

<div><blockquote><hr>HellRaiserXX wrote:<div>"And when the assassin community has Raina and Lorelady who just love how the assassins are and think we are just right where we should be.... dumbing down the devs, we're doomed to a life time of 1.5 dps w/ zero utility and zero progression via AAs in this entire expansion."</div> <div> </div> <div>Whatever dude, you keep challenging me on stuff and everyone else keeps confirming what I say. Lore and I are not the only people saying this stuff, anyone who understands this game will tell you the exact same things.</div><hr></blockquote>Tomarrow i'll give out a quick zonewide parse of my raid - a nice and quick labs raid and something everyone should be able to compare to.. There are 3 assassins in my new guild, and two swashbucklers.. I have seen two assassins in action, and one swash in this new guild..</div>

t0gar

01-11-2007, 09:08 AM

<div></div><div></div><div></div>LOL!!! Parsing any parses is pointless. Anyone who doesn't already believe swashy's are overpowered would blame it on lack of skill/group setup/equipment or something else stupid. Like I said, this thread turned into a whine fest hehe.*Edit: This is true for anyone posting an assassin beating a swashy as well including myself probably.*My run down of playing a swashy:With 100% haste I was hitting for an easy 600-1k dmg + any double-attack + any AoE attacks. I could spam CA's non-stop(and by spam i mean SPAM!) and get a hit in inbetween without ever running out of another CA to use. Inspiration was a pure slaughterfest. The biggest annoyance was to flank to get off one of their CA's, can't remember the name. So 600-800 spiking to 1k DPS on auto-attack + CA dmg which most are around 1k inbetween every hit... so that's another 500-1k DPS(this is deflated but I can't remember avg. #'s)... plus the odd chance of a double attack or an AoE proc which can't be factored in mathmatically effective.To sum it up:600+500 = 1.1k1k+1k = 2kThat's on average 1-2k DPS without double attack and AoE attack. Throw in the fact that the mob is debuffed and the DPS goes up farther. Throw in the 2 procs and it's even higher. Throw in a fight that they use inspiration and it's crazy. Dont forget about crits and poisons. Now if you add in the group buffs it's just wrong. And the fact that they have more utility... /sigh. Their DPS will obviously differ with the raid, but I really don't want to see what a swashy can do with a dirge, inspiration, and an illusionist with dbl attack AA. Can you say slaughter? <span>:smileyindifferent:</span>***Note: The majority of the swashy gear i used was from labs, so obviously a better equiped swashy will have a higher base average.***PS: So true Khufure, we completely strayed from the original purpose of this thread. IMO most of the classes seemed balanced though except the "T2 DPS". I won't whine over a necro having 1-2 decent abilities nor will I whine about conj's beating me on some group mobs since i suck on them anyways, but swashy is something we can legitly focus on. T1 is more balanced then I ever remember seeing it.(started raiding in KoS)<div></div><p>Message Edited by t0gar on <span class="date_text">01-10-2007</span> <span class="time_text">08:20 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by t0gar on <span class=date_text>01-10-2007</span> <span class=time_text>08:28 PM</span>

godofwar19

01-11-2007, 08:45 PM

<DIV> i dont see why so many assassins are complaining about our new aa there is 2 lines that i think are awsome and that is the bleeding line witch will up our dps in raids and the excessive bleeding at the end decress the max hp of a mod i think that awsome and i will work on epics think about it if we have 4 bleeds on an epic mob with that aa we can reduce it by 20% and getting 4 bleed on a mob isnt hard think of this if as mob had 1 mill hp and then we reduce it by 20% than 200k hp gone i think that is extremly good and i know i will be maxing out the enhanvced hemotoxin and the atrubuit poision. IF i understand the deails of the enhanced hemotoxian it will make the poision proc more offten meaning more dps for us so i think these two of our new aa totaly rock..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Soulstealer 70 assassin</DIV> <DIV>"The Assassin of BlackBurrow"</DIV>

Historios

01-11-2007, 10:33 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> godofwar1980 wrote:<BR> <DIV> i dont see why so many assassins are complaining about our new aa there is 2 lines that i think are awsome and that is the bleeding line witch will up our dps in raids and the excessive bleeding at the end decress the max hp of a mod i think that awsome and i will work on epics think about it if we have 4 bleeds on an epic mob with that aa we can reduce it by 20% and getting 4 bleed on a mob isnt hard think of this if as mob had 1 mill hp and then we reduce it by 20% than 200k hp gone i think that is extremly good and i know i will be maxing out the enhanvced hemotoxin and the atrubuit poision. IF i understand the deails of the enhanced hemotoxian it will make the poision proc more offten meaning more dps for us so i think these two of our new aa totaly rock..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Soulstealer 70 assassin</DIV> <DIV>"The Assassin of BlackBurrow"</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>you realize that bleeding only works for 1% on epics, so its a total of 4% possible (since mark goes off immediately in a raid you cant really count that) and I still havent seen anybody prove that it actually works anyway.

Jayad

01-11-2007, 11:56 PM

Maybe you should actually use them in a raid before you get excited about them...

khufure

01-12-2007, 12:28 AM

Without doubt our EOF aa are among the worst in the game. But this is by design. I don't mind them. As I said before better [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ty AAs than a nerf.<div></div>

Jvaloth

01-12-2007, 01:16 AM

<DIV>"The assassin is going to play a MUCH more important role than sheer dps in that kind of group, but the assassin isent going to be #1 on the parser.."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>HUH? hahaha Uninstall EQ 2. Seriously.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ah yes, the assassin will play a MUCH more important role.. HOW? Agro transfer is less. DPS is less. Pathfinding buff UBER, Apply poison on 1 person... OMGZ!!!! What else? Whats this important role? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tier 1.5 dps. Thats it. Thats our role. Enjoy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hellraiser/Raina, no one is supporting your position save for the delusional Lorelady. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Jvaloth on <span class=date_text>01-11-2007</span> <span class=time_text>12:17 PM</span>

Jayad

01-12-2007, 02:37 AM

I know I'm in the raid for my apply poison ability.

LoreLady

01-12-2007, 04:22 AM

<div><blockquote><hr>Jvaloth wrote:<div></div> <div>"The assassin is going to play a MUCH more important role than sheer dps in that kind of group, but the assassin isent going to be #1 on the parser.."</div> <div> </div> <div>HUH? hahaha Uninstall EQ 2. Seriously.</div> <div> </div> <div>Ah yes, the assassin will play a MUCH more important role.. HOW? Agro transfer is less. DPS is less. Pathfinding buff UBER, Apply poison on 1 person... OMGZ!!!! What else? Whats this important role? </div> <div> </div> <div>Tier 1.5 dps. Thats it. Thats our role. Enjoy.</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>Hellraiser/Raina, no one is supporting your position save for the delusional Lorelady. </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div><p>Message Edited by Jvaloth on <span class="date_text">01-11-2007</span> <span class="time_text">12:17 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>So far the parsings that are being putup are supporting us, I PM'd you earlier asking for some zonewide parsings - and you said you would bring some to me.. So please, if you wish to debate bring something behind your debate. This kind of tactic gets you nowhere, except show your maturity level.</div>

t0gar

01-12-2007, 04:53 AM

There have been just as many parses showing swashys doing better as there have been assassins... We bring something behind our debate and you find a reason to disregard it.To clear one thing up, their hate transfer is not better than ours. They can have more hate(if they take off deaggro proc) and thus it'll be more effective, but we do have a 1% higher transfer I think might be a little more.Bleeding line hardly boosts DPS and the other posts describe the end ability rather well... After using hemo 5/5 for a while i've concluded... it sucks! On grouped mobs it's pathetic since they die so fast and on single targets it usually overwrites itself before the 3rd hit. Any fights less than 1 min caustic is better hands down.<div></div>

Jvaloth

01-12-2007, 04:56 AM

<DIV>They can take the Master 2 version of their hate transfer as one of their options, atleast thats what one of the swashies said he did... which is higher % than ours since we cannot get Master 2.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

t0gar

01-12-2007, 06:07 AM

M2 version is 28%, our M1 is 29%. Comfirmed with my guild's swashy.<div></div>

Remma

01-12-2007, 06:57 AM

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>godofwar1980 wrote:<div> i dont see why so many assassins are complaining about our new aa there is 2 lines that i think are awsome and that is the bleeding line witch will up our dps in raids and the excessive bleeding at the end decress the max hp of a mod i think that awsome and i will work on epics think about it if we have 4 bleeds on an epic mob with that aa we can reduce it by 20% and getting 4 bleed on a mob isnt hard think of this if as mob had 1 mill hp and then we reduce it by 20% than 200k hp gone i think that is extremly good and i know i will be maxing out the enhanvced hemotoxin and the atrubuit poision. IF i understand the deails of the enhanced hemotoxian it will make the poision proc more offten meaning more dps for us so i think these two of our new aa totaly rock..</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>Soulstealer 70 assassin</div> <div>"The Assassin of BlackBurrow"</div><hr></blockquote>Bro, try it. Look at your before and after parse see the difference of about maybe 40dps on a good night and ask SOE why they stuck us so good this time.I'm a hardcore player (read no-lifer =p) I went from 50 to 60 in a matter of days, same with 60 to 70. 50 aa's pfft, ate em fer breakfast and well ya get the picture. I have 64 aa's, these I have gotten while raiding and generally plodding around, in other words I've put no effort into attaining em whatsoever cos, well what's the freaking point? They add more or less NOTHING to our class so why make the effort? seriously!edit cos I hate typos =p</div><p>Message Edited by Remmagell on <span class=date_text>01-11-2007</span> <span class=time_text>06:00 PM</span>

simpwrx02

01-20-2007, 12:20 AM

<P>Sorry about this random post and yes I am trolling the boards since i am bored at work. First off i was disappointed on the amount of actual parsers in this topic, the one in the wizzy board has an insane amount. Second i just want to say assassin's put out some real nice dps, in fact the only class that comes close to and rarely beats me is an assassin.. i use to dominate since the assassin had no support in her group. Guild made a change to the main dps group and it went from a caster group to a hybrid cast/melee dps group basic set up is wizzy/fury/brig/ill/assassin/troub... with this set up a majority of the group buffs compliment each other, and the assassin went up around 300+ dps if not more, since she gets haste from ill, the fist from the fury, double attack from the ill, melee proc from the wizzy str/int buff from wizzy and another int buff that stacks from fury so lots of posion procing going on. Needless to say this group is normally top 4 dps on raids and sometimes top 5 on low healing fights when the fury can nuke to his hearts content... the fury is getting around 1500 dps on some fights. I group mostly with guild memebers when i am not raiding, I am sure there are assassins out there that can tear me apart dps wise, but i have not grouped with them. How ever i do feel that top dps on single targets shold either be a wizzy or assassin anyhting else just seems wrong from reading part of this topic i see that the swashy is your biggest compliant where as on the wizzy boards the necro and thier lifeburn is our biggest complaint.</P> <P>Basically this group was set up to see exactly how much dps a group could put out and all out ona fight this one group is close to 50% of the raids dps. I think i posted this here since it is a new group we came up with and it seems to work extremely well and i wanted to share it... :smileyhappy: take it for what you will and have a nice day.</P>

ruperick

04-01-2007, 11:05 PM

<cite>Jvaloth wrote:</cite><blockquote> <p>You have a swashy that gets 40-50% of their dps by standing there autoattacking with their uber auto AE stance, poisons, inspiration, 200% haste and a ton of short buffs on fast recast timers.... add in their ability to debuff the crap out of mobs and solo and something doesnt make sense. Swashies are perceived as an AE scout, yet they can parse 2k+ on single target mobs consistantly..... Its freaking ridiculous.</p> <p>Before EoF came out I was basically tied with the Swashy in my guild. We would go back and forth as #1 by 50-100 DPS or so raid wide. Now I'm losing every raid wide parse by 200-500. I'm winning maybe 3-5 fights the entire raid. I'm going all out and getting completely destroyed on parses when before we were equals. Its very frustrating... Its made me want to switch to my Illusionist full time to be honest. Atleast I can do decent DPS with him and have a ton of utility/versatility with ALOT less work. </p><p>And I just spend about 30 minutes compiling all my raid wide parses Pre EoF and Post EoF and when I went to submit post I got some error message from server and came back to a blank message! haha God I'm [Removed for Content]!!:smileymad:</p> <p>Amen to that, swashy's have gotton super powers man, same thing with me, before eof I could stand toe to toe with swashy. Not anymore they are so frigging overpowered it is insane. They can hit 2-4k on trash or named, depending on the player. As a pretty dam good assassin im lucky to hit 1500-2k per fight these day's. I have done my homework, I know about poision, crit, proc, aa lines, have spoken with some of the worldwide best assassins in this game and they said pretty much the same thing. It really doesnt help if you get in the [Removed for Content] group in a raid as well, no haste buff no dps buff. Assassins either need to be powered up, or swashy's need a MAJOR nerf. This is out of hand and really quite unfair. Let the flames fly, I think they tickle.</p> </blockquote>

Graton

04-02-2007, 12:36 AM

Thaydrian@Kithicor wrote: <blockquote><cite>Jvaloth wrote:</cite><blockquote> <p>You have a swashy that gets 40-50% of their dps by standing there autoattacking with their uber auto AE stance, poisons, inspiration, 200% haste and a ton of short buffs on fast recast timers.... add in their ability to debuff the crap out of mobs and solo and something doesnt make sense. Swashies are perceived as an AE scout, yet they can parse 2k+ on single target mobs consistantly..... Its freaking ridiculous.</p> <p>Before EoF came out I was basically tied with the Swashy in my guild. We would go back and forth as #1 by 50-100 DPS or so raid wide. Now I'm losing every raid wide parse by 200-500. I'm winning maybe 3-5 fights the entire raid. I'm going all out and getting completely destroyed on parses when before we were equals. Its very frustrating... Its made me want to switch to my Illusionist full time to be honest. Atleast I can do decent DPS with him and have a ton of utility/versatility with ALOT less work. </p><p>And I just spend about 30 minutes compiling all my raid wide parses Pre EoF and Post EoF and when I went to submit post I got some error message from server and came back to a blank message! haha God I'm [Removed for Content]!!:smileymad:</p> <p>Amen to that, swashy's have gotton super powers man, same thing with me, before eof I could stand toe to toe with swashy. Not anymore they are so frigging overpowered it is insane. They can hit 2-4k on trash or named, depending on the player. As a pretty dam good assassin im lucky to hit 1500-2k per fight these day's. I have done my homework, I know about poision, crit, proc, aa lines, have spoken with some of the worldwide best assassins in this game and they said pretty much the same thing. It really doesnt help if you get in the [Removed for Content] group in a raid as well, no haste buff no dps buff. Assassins either need to be powered up, or swashy's need a MAJOR nerf. This is out of hand and really quite unfair. Let the flames fly, I think they tickle.</p> </blockquote> </blockquote>aren't there some other posts crying about swashbucklers you could have used rather than resurrecting a 3 month dead thread ?

ruperick

04-02-2007, 01:21 AM

Sound's to me like your the one crying, if you dont like what I had to add to the convo fine. I could care less. I just stated the obvious, you decided to cry about it. So stow it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Cheer's!

Executi

04-02-2007, 06:41 PM

I'm not too sure about most guilds but some of these zonewides seem very poor... Here's a Freethinker's Parse...all inclusive from Strike.. Allies: (21:05) 36519585 | 28869.24 [Execution-Decapitate-29687] Azleya 3254615 | 2572.82 (Ranger) Heidegger 2977559 | 2353.80 (Necro) Axumi 2855511 | 2257.32 (Swashy) Execution 2411151 | 1906.05 (Assassin) Summona 2408857 | 1904.24 (Conjuror) Sadius 2308687 | 1825.05 (Necro) Morb 2273401 | 1797.16 (Warlock) Weva 2106945 | 1665.57 (Ranger) Ociadia 1957058 | 1547.08 (Brigand) Silwene 1576929 | 1246.58 (Illusionist) Without Treloth and Malkonis Allies: (13:15) 27149833 | 34150.73 [Execution-Decapitate-29687] Azleya 2359588 | 2968.04 Heidegger 2169001 | 2728.30 Axumi 2117543 | 2663.58 Morb 1919643 | 2414.65 Execution 1794128 | 2256.77 Sadius 1777652 | 2236.04 Weva 1723422 | 2167.83 Summona 1705739 | 2145.58 Ociadia 1633792 | 2055.08 Aralas 1226136 | 1542.31 (Zerker) Silwene 1187018 | 1493.10 Treloth Allies: (03:26) 3823586 | 18561.10 [Heidegger-Incinerate-27183] Weva 383523 | 1861.76 Azleya 363581 | 1764.96 Axumi 353023 | 1713.70 Summona 341490 | 1657.72 Heidegger 321994 | 1563.08 Execution 225320 | 1093.79 Silwene 218711 | 1061.70 Malkonis Allies: (04:24) 4677958 | 17719.54 [Execution-Decapitate-18225] Azleya 531446 | 2013.05 Heidegger 486564 | 1843.05 Execution 391703 | 1483.72 Axumi 384945 | 1458.13 Summona 361628 | 1369.80 Sadius 351327 | 1330.78 Daxon 314088 | 1189.73 (Brigand) Look at those parses and decide... Assassins can do good dps...it's just other classes can do dps, too. Execution does have one piece of EoF gear...using mostlykos stuff.. Cochy don't u have Ancient Robe of Battle? Oh you guys probably want group setups. G1 - Guardian, Defiler, Templar, Dirge, Swashy, Coercer G2 - Zerker, Inquis, Defiler, Dirge, Ranger, Ranger G3 - Illusionist, Assassin(Execution), Brigand, Necro, Warden, Troub G4 - Conjuror, Necro, Fury, Troub, Warlock, Shadow Knight

HellRaiserXX

04-02-2007, 07:33 PM

<p>The thing that immediately jumps out at me from those parses is the lack of a dirge in your group. Dirges atm give the largest DPS boost of any support class out there to melee DPS classes. I would take a Dirge over an Illusionist 100% of the time if I couldnt have both and a dirge gives pretty much all the same type of buffs as a troub with the added bonus of Cacophony of Blades which with their set gear and AA lines addes a very significant amount to anyones parse. I would stake money on the fact that if you were in Grp 2, you wouldve beat out that swashy and theres a good chance maybe even parsed #1.</p><p>Because the classes are very balanced right now, that means that given the right group setup ANY one of the top DPS classes atm could potentially parse #1 given equal skill. </p>

Computer MAn

04-02-2007, 07:36 PM

I'll get zonewides as they show up. <u>Inner Sanctum</u> Allies: (56:37) 77351898 | 22770.65 [Dogmae-Stake Through the Heart-181948] Shaix | 2199.97 | Cr:3583(Assassin w/2stakes) Cochy | 2057.51 | Cr:5035 Nilloda | 1913.58 | Cr:1795(Conjuror) Legacystar | 1877.92 | Cr:741(Wizard) Mallard | 1668.95 | Cr:1550(Ranger) Sinnach | 1643.09 | Cr:946(Swashy) Distress | 1507.16 | Cr:1804(Conjuror) Omido | 1369.50 | Cr:1636(Brigand) Foemas | 1346.03 | Cr:1600(Warlock) Skel | 1206.96 | Cr:1503(Berserker) <u>Inner Sanctum </u>Allies: (54:01) 76563266 | 23623.35 [Dogmae-Stake Through the Heart-194177] Shaix | 2338.49 | Cr:3928(Assassin w/2stakes) Cochy | 2254.12 | Cr:5133 Nilloda | 2061.86 | Cr:1662(Conjuror) Distress | 1911.37 | Cr:2093(Conjuror) Libnok | 1850.83 | Cr:2062(Necro) Foemas | 1767.25 | Cr:1878(Warlock) Mallard | 1713.06 | Cr:1902(Ranger) Omido | 1506.22 | Cr:1629(Brigand) Skel | 1374.59 | Cr:1576(Zerker) Erazamus | 1123.97 | Cr:771(Coercer) Not the greatest but I will throw them out there, usually tank group (Assassin, Zerker, Defiler, Templar, Dirge, Warden)

HellRaiserXX

04-02-2007, 07:46 PM

<p>See how different those parses are? Most likely its that in Cochys guild the assassin have the optimal grp compared to the other DPS classes. Why is the swashy way down towards the end? Does he suck? Could be, but I think it is far more likely that he is not in an optimal grp or it could be something entirely different. I could post parses that should something else and I bet each guild could do the same. </p><p>That was the original intent of this post because I had a feeling it would be like that, but we needed many parses from many different guilds from many different zones to really see it. Im not sad this thread died and would have preferred it stay buried, but if people want to throw up parses and stuff, by all means; have at it!</p>

Executi

04-02-2007, 07:52 PM

Inner Sanctum is not the greatest zone for posting...Courtesans are pretty crazy encounters...and the roamers take like 5 seconds to kill... We skip as many mobs as possible in Inner-sanctum and are only fighting for like 40 minutes or so the entire zone... but here's a parse. I was playing a healer. Allies: (39:31) 64547240 | 27223.63 [Jaraxx-Stake Through the Heart-146060] Heidegger 6248278 | 2635.29 Azleya 6219331 | 2623.08 Axumi 5610376 | 2366.25 Sadius 4515596 | 1904.51 Ociadia 4217754 | 1778.89 Summona 4028701 | 1699.16 Hanable 3907282 | 1647.95 Morb 3793605 | 1600.00 Our necros, ranger, and swash's are still pwning the parse...and parsing higher than any assassin post I've seen so far... Execution And none of our DPS classes get the stakes...lol... our MT keeps it...for aggro, etc.

Computer MAn

04-02-2007, 08:36 PM

It also depends on how you parse and what parses you edit out etc. Do you wait 2 minutes between pulls or are you chain pulling. Its little things that like that can make parses change from guild to guild.

Executi

04-02-2007, 09:18 PM

Truly... We usually plow through zones as fast as possible.. Instances are just farm zones anyway. The thing about assassins vs. swashbuckler is you could put a swash in the MT group; they can maximize their DPS and be in the best position to benefit the raid. While to maximize an assassins dps, they need to be in a group that accents the assassin only... I mean how many dps classes need haste over dps mod? assassins...

Computer MAn

04-02-2007, 11:39 PM

Inner Sanctum from Tonight Allies: (43:26) 74687184 | 28659.70 [Dogmae-Stake Through the Heart-174327] Cochy | 2535.37 | Cr:4431(Assassin) Shaix | 2470.55 | Cr:2965(Assassin) Nilloda | 2325.78 | Cr:1611(Conjuror) Sinnach | 1969.98 | Cr:1373(Swashy) Legacystar | 1964.39 | Cr:1676(Wizzie) Mallard | 1940.44 | Cr:1509(Ranger) Foemas | 1884.42 | Cr:1678(Warlock) Gisellen | 1824.38 | Cr:1463(Necro) Distress | 1607.98 | Cr:1542(Conjuror -AFK for awhile) Omido | 1538.32 | Cr:1218(Brigand)

HellRaiserXX

04-02-2007, 11:45 PM

steelbadger

04-03-2007, 05:42 AM

This is all from the lower end of raiding, casual, 3 groups of 70s in Lyceum. Brig and Assassin where in a group with a zerker and Fury, I got agitate (assassin), but the mage group got the mana regen (which meant no Caustic for me <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) Buffs I had where Agitate and Coercer dps buff. STR was lame, INT was 380-ish (not that I could use any poisons mind) Warlock 5049291 | 1047.57 Assassin 4654795 | 965.73 Necromancer 3874866 | 803.91 Conjuror 3302667 | 685.20 Wizard 3280946 | 680.69 Zerker 3190293 | 661.89 Wizard 2992309 | 620.81 Brigand 2657314 | 551.31 Guardian 1485305 | 308.15 Coercer 1337063 | 277.40 Yep it is very low, but those are basically all of the level 70's in the raid (excepting healers) For kit... check out Algazeed on EQ2 players (assassin) and Astornoth (Warlock) OMG nerf Warlocks! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Kaiser Sigma

04-03-2007, 08:01 AM

<cite>Execution wrote:</cite><blockquote>Truly... We usually plow through zones as fast as possible.. Instances are just farm zones anyway. The thing about assassins vs. swashbuckler is you could put a swash in the MT group; they can maximize their DPS and be in the best position to benefit the raid. While to maximize an assassins dps, they need to be in a group that accents the assassin only... I mean how many dps classes need haste over dps mod? assassins... </blockquote> Actually, that's not true. An assassin in the MT group will maximize his DPS and be an awesome hate generator. You are getting a Dirge (caco + proc modifiers), Templar (more proc modifiers), Warden (+to hit bonuses) and a shaman (lots of str / proc modifiers if the shaman is a mystic). On AoE fights Hemotoxin DoTs the [Removed for Content] out of mobs. The amount of str allows for you to swap gear for pieces with melee crit bonuses without losing stats since technically you should be way past the cap (850+ str). Basically, with a MT group you are looking at 800 str, Cacophony of Blades, about 31% to critical hits (without Elixir of Tactics) and a considerable increase to your procs.

HellRaiserXX

04-03-2007, 11:40 AM

<p>Looking at the parses he posted it looks like his guild doesnt use a warden in their MT grp and a Coercer doesnt help an assassin that much. So the way they run their MT grp I think the swashy is better for that position. </p><p>From my experiences being in the MT grp, I dont get Buffs. Every buff goes to the MT it seems and so as far as good DPS buffs go, when in MT grp I get the shaft. Thats just been my experience and we dont use either an assassin or swashy in MT grp usually. </p>

Siclone

04-03-2007, 12:30 PM

<p>I got a questoin on these zone wide parse.</p><p>I never have done this haveing trouble with the program. However</p><p>I am guessing this takes damage done from the entire raid.</p><p>How does deaths and afks effect the parse? I mean as so far as, I am an assassin I die 5 times during the raid so in 5 encounters I am doing zero or almost zero damage, while as some one in the back like the wizard that does not get hit with the AE does not die at all. </p><p>I am guessing my zone wide just drops, in comparsion? </p><p>I know in golf for example when one figures out handicap, you toss out the really bad holes there are formulas that take bad holes and bad days into account to give you your index which you apply to a slope rating ect. I am guessing this zone wide programe is not that Sophisticated ? that it is just raw numbers?</p>

Graton

04-03-2007, 12:42 PM

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I got a questoin on these zone wide parse.</p><p>I never have done this haveing trouble with the program. However</p><p>I am guessing this takes damage done from the entire raid.</p><p>How does deaths and afks effect the parse? I mean as so far as, I am an assassin I die 5 times during the raid so in 5 encounters I am doing zero or almost zero damage, while as some one in the back like the wizard that does not get hit with the AE does not die at all. </p><p>I am guessing my zone wide just drops, in comparsion? </p><p>I know in golf for example when one figures out handicap, you toss out the really bad holes there are formulas that take bad holes and bad days into account to give you your index which you apply to a slope rating ect. I am guessing this zone wide programe is not that Sophisticated ? that it is just raw numbers?</p></blockquote> obviously if you die your zone-wide dps goes down, yes. the program is awfully [Removed for Content] sophisticated actually and you can glean a ton of information from it about how we deal dmg as well as what mobs are doing. it does not however drop the "bad fights". why are you dieing 5 times to ae's ? they aren't that many ae's even in the eof instances that are really that devastating.

HellRaiserXX

04-03-2007, 01:10 PM

<p>My guild hasnt played with the Avatars much from all the other encounters the only one in EoF I can think of where the AE cant necesarrily be avoided that could potentially kill you outright would be PHH, all the others are completely joustable/avoidable. Well and any of the AEs from the vamps in IS and Malkonis if you actually let them AE you at the end.</p><p>If you are dying to AEs than you need to do something differently probably. The only time dying will affect your parse is if you die and no one else does, if the raid dies than ACT will flag that encounter and it can be edited out. AFKs will hurt your parse too, but if you are running it yourself you can remove the parses you didnt participate in just to see how you did on the encounters you were involved in.</p>

Siclone

04-03-2007, 01:48 PM

<p>Yea I get it, that is the way I figured it was, just making sure I was not missing something. Thanks for confirming. </p><p>I just feel parse are fun to play with and look at I just don't think they are worth allot.</p><p>Considering they only show what 1/3? of what is really going on</p><p>They don't show the dps utility classes add by increasing others DPS</p><p>They don't show the effects and the added damage of de buff classes.</p><p>Even if you die once or twice in a raid from ae or agro, or even wife argo during a fight, you miss out on an encounter as we all know from school one zero on a test is Huge. Add a zero to an average and it changes allot. </p><p>At the end of the day you got a bunch of numbers that show total gross damage, shrugs. </p><p>Its fun, but it really don't mean much. </p>

Graton

04-03-2007, 02:47 PM

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Yea I get it, that is the way I figured it was, just making sure I was not missing something. Thanks for confirming. </p><p>I just feel parse are fun to play with and look at I just don't think they are worth allot.</p><p>Considering they only show what 1/3? of what is really going on</p><p>They don't show the dps utility classes add by increasing others DPS</p><p>They don't show the effects and the added damage of de buff classes.</p><p>Even if you die once or twice in a raid from ae or agro, or even wife argo during a fight, you miss out on an encounter as we all know from school one zero on a test is Huge. Add a zero to an average and it changes allot. </p><p>At the end of the day you got a bunch of numbers that show total gross damage, shrugs. </p><p>Its fun, but it really don't mean much. </p></blockquote>if you parse overtime with a consistent raiding group, parses tell alot. sure you die now and then but so does everybody so that sort of thing tends to even out. if you keep historical parses you actually can see the affect that having debuffs has. compare a run through freethinker's hideout without a brigand and with a brigand. the difference in dmg is noticeable. you can also see the different affects group makeup has on a class' damage not just based on total but also based on dmg distribution. in addition you can see what types of dmg mobs do and adjust main tank groups to better survive certain mobs. in short, there's no end to the amount of use that can be gotten out of advanced combat tracker. saying that they "aren't worth a lot" is just ignorant. sure if you just use it to post dmg after every fight, it doesn't help you, but if you want to maximize your skill at your class, parses are an invaluable tool.

grish

04-03-2007, 03:22 PM

Well, Ill throw in my 2 cents, as far as my AA i have standard str/int lines, and bleeding and poisons for my EOF aa. Generally use caustic, still dont trust hemo quite yet. Mastered out, less 3-4 t6 masters. I am top parse zonewide in all our KOS zones, as we are still farming before we move to EOF. We dont have a reliable necro, or wizard, and our conj just hit 70 finally. As far as placement goes on the parse I am 90% of the time on top regardless of the encounter, even in AOE situations I use my CA's differently and still am number 1, if not number 2 behind the warlock. Bringing up the rear is one of our longtime raiding rangers, often parsing from 200 behind, to within 50 of me. Average raid parsing 12000-15000, my personal parses ranging from 1300-2300, with zonewides running about 1400 average. I was going to past last nights LOA parses, but I didnt have the time. I had top on every single name, zonewide raid average 12000, my personal 1450 or so. Warlock in second with about 1300, and ranger about the same. As far as groups I prefer the MA group. Our MA group consists of Zerker, Dirge, Assassin, then most the time we have an illusionist, warden or templar, and the last spot often has defiler. I Can clear 1k str, 420ish pierce, I am self geared for crits so a warden adds to that, and the illusionist double attack and sometimes prismatic spell she casts. Often I am in MT group for memwipe mobs, or sometimes if we run tripple threat in an easy zone. Its not that I dont like the group, it makes me feel important, but I just prefer the MA group. I would love to see our guild score a couple of the classes which we lack and see how I stack up, but based on what we have I am king of the mountain, and everyone knows it. Its cute when our bruiser thinks he will catch me on the parse. Once in awhile I get in tell hell as an officer of the guild, and he will beat me on a parse and boy he lets me know it! I havent got to see myself stack against a swash either, but I think the outcome would be the same. I think assassins are great, and fairly balanced based on my experience, I do agree with many that some of our eof aa could use a little tweaking though. Thats my 2 cents, I may post some parses of upcoming raids, but I work so hard whuppin the parse by the end of the raid im pretty tired =).