Did they really have to touch surveillence

[UberC]

Causes social aggro now as it places you incombat, oddly enough not in the patch notes <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Sad assassin now, yes, I used it ALOT due to having better single target dps, but I guess we all know that. Saw in asn channel, that it doesn't always create adds... /shrug, not as it use to be anyways.<div></div>

[Salat]

I havent been in game today, so will go play around with it shortly.  I know after EoF there is now proc buffs from certain classes that can make it proc.  Ones that say, "percant to proc on any offensive action or abil"  or something like that.  BUt, if you was soloing and it was, then maybe they changed it.

[Jayad]

I'll test it tonight, if nobody gets to it before.  If they broke surveillance.. I'm going to blow a gasket.

[UberC]

My test was limited to droags on the the isle of awakening, could not pull them single (the SK type mobs that are bunched together) I logged shortly afterwards, one grumpy, hungry assassin...<div></div>

[Balrok]

<DIV>Confirmed..  surveillence will social agro other mobs!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can hear it now... "<EM>It was not working as designed, (see text description</EM>)"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then don't take a <A href="mailto:!@$%#@!$" target=_blank>!@$%#@!$</A> a year to fix it!  .. just plain [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and your [Removed for Content] off the assassins/rangers that aren't out the door already.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>... oh wait!  I have 1-70 brand new zones with EoF to level a new toon!  yah!  :smileymad:</DIV>

[evilpants]

What a load of crap! Just when I was seeing some action other than, "Kill that" in Raids. Way to go SOE, way to go. Not a game breaker but it still sucks.

[UberC]

Guess we can always hope it is just a bug with what ever they did to getaway (big hope I guess, but its still the stealth mechanic I suppose) The reason it gets me so bad, is we have no out of stealth AE, I always assumed surveillence was a nice touch from the Devs to give us a chance to get single mobs... hope it still is...<div></div>

[Jvaloth]

<DIV>Heh, I am so <A href="mailto:!@#$$%!@#$" target=_blank>!@#$$%!@#$</A> sick of SOE. Truely.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That was one perk that assassins and rangers had.  One sense of "utility".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Back to whining about the piece of <A href="mailto:!@#$#%@#$" target=_blank>!@#$#%@#$</A> AA's we got and the total lack of DPS we have in comparison to 10 other classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Zheni]

sucks<div></div>

[HellRaiserXX]

Obviously you guys dont know that it was a fix. Albeit a ninja fix.  I cant remember exactly when the change went in, but awhile ago the changed Surveil so that it might pull social aggro, but the update didnt affect Surveillance for whatever reason, but it affected everything prior to surveil.  So, its apparently been fixed so that that update affects the whole surveil line like it was supposed to.  SOE fixes or doesn't fix things based on it being reported.  I doubt many people would have reported this as being broken and if no one does SOE doesnt know about it. Somehow it was finally brought to their attention, probably from random discussion on these boards.<p>Message Edited by HellRaiserXX on <span class=date_text>12-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:01 PM</span>

[Jayad]

<P>I guess people, you know, talking about it on the forums for <STRONG>over a year</STRONG> doesn't make it available to SOE.   Just like the freaking proc thing.  It's like it's some new bug they never knew about, when we had talked about it over and over.</P> <P>Now Rangers & Assassins are (even more so) just weak utility scouts with mediocre DPS.  Awesome.  Thanks.</P>

[t0gar]

Kick the pred's when they're down. Smart thinking.<div></div>

[Nathdorl]

i gotta question for ya... (surveillance thing suxx, thats not the point)whydya all complaining bout ur dps? as of the last several raids (including HoS, undoubtful a caster-zone) did always show up the same top-dps dude: me. 2nd/3rd is usually warlocks n then ele/necro/wizzi, rest is way below (guardian mt has some good dps sometimes, buckler ftw)what are you all complaining about necros n wizards n <insert_class_to_complain_about_here> they are ALL outparsed by an assassin which doesn slack around... so you pro'ly stop watching TV or reading newspapers while raiding and ull be no1 gain...alright... you may now start flaming me(group setup doesn really matter, im also no1 at MT-grp without dirge...)

[Jayad]

You need to play with better necros, wizards, warlocks, swashies and rangers then.  The ones in my guild are passing me one by one with similar buffs or good group setups. :/

[Nathdorl]

well... actually i think they not slacking round...i just did a reparse from last HoS visit..resulting in:1) me: 6.85mio dmg2) warlock: 5.11mio3) warlock: 4.80mio4) another asn: 4.28mio (he had a cold the day, usually outparse him anyways <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)5) monk: 3.85miothe next spots: monk, ele, mt(guardian), bers, necro, coercer (nec&coercer almost parsed same dmg) (in that order)if i remember correct my grp was: bers, monk, myst, ele, warlock (we tried the swashy@mt-grp thing: first time i got aggro since guardian changed to stam-AA-line)oh i forgot, if im already into these numbers.. my dmg was split up this way:24% autoattack piercing11% mark proc6% hemo6% killing blade5% scraping blow5% deadly wound4% decap4% eviscerate n so on..(4% flowing wound, 2% untreated bleeding)<p>Message Edited by Nathdorl on <span class=date_text>12-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:23 AM</span>

[judged_one]

<P>yawn</P> <P>Get a real parser post ur parse. (Advance Combat Tracker)</P> <P> </P> <P>I can tell U if your are parsing higher, then </P> <P>a) none of your raid force have more than 75aa</P> <P>b) none of your swashy wizard or necro are doing their job.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Nathdorl]

- im using ACT- one warlock has round 92 AA, most others round 80- had no wiz with us- i agree that the necro seemed to be slacking from the parse- i kinda missed the swashy, he had the same damage as the other asn (round 3.8mio)<p>Message Edited by Nathdorl on <span class=date_text>12-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:26 AM</span>

[K'aldar]

swash and necro can now consistantly outdps us, wizards can match, warlocks can match zone wide due to very high ae's, and rangers can get pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] close.  anyway back on topic, yea i liked having somethign else to do in groups and such besides dps.. yay for the nerfage!<div></div>

[Nelyia]

Nooo, not Surveillance. That skill was more or less the only reason I could duo green heroics in dungeons with a bard friend of mine... one third of the "utility" gone... *sigh*That's not a nice Frostfell present, SOE.<div></div>

[K'aldar]

On an unrelated matter, Account closed as of December 21, 2006.  It wasn't due to this patch, but it certainly didn't help.  Going to let a guildie play my toon for the rest of its lifetime, so R.I.P. Kaldarr, lvl 70 assassin on Crushbone, Leader in the guild of Archon.  With his 28 masters, 4 adept III's, full fabled, full adornments, he served me well.  Lets all have a moment of silence for this event.<div></div>

[de lori]

<DIV>Re: Did they really have to touch surveillence?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ummmmmm.ya they did.....and while they are at it fix the nonaggro aggro from conj stoneskin.....</DIV> <DIV>what not gonna fix that aswell?.......</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>sorry to hear this has happened to pred class.....was a valuable skill that has been removed without looking at the other issues it causes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>define yourself SOE and stick too it....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>making people aquire understanding of a skill and then "fixing" it  what ( 1year? ) later is just lazy and shows poor understanding of your product.</DIV>

[Outerspace]

Actually the surveil line worked with no social aggro since launch. <span>:smileysad:</span><div></div>

[Shik4m4ru]

cry for an ability bug...let me laughIf you play Assassin just for this, go reroll<div></div>

[Zin`Car]

<DIV>As mentioned earlier, this happened once before... the Surviel line was "nerfed" so that it pulled social agro but it got reverted a couple of days later.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This does suck for you assassins though...  such a shame that SOE has put their crosshairs on you and just can't stop firing headshots at you.  I shudder to think what is next coming down the pipeline for you...  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Good luck with that.</DIV>

[Kimira]

Mind showing your actual zonewide dps number nath? <div></div>

[Judist]

<P>Templars (specifically) have an EoF AA line reward that reduces/eliminates social aggro. Sometimes it prevents social aggro, sometimes is dosent. So they want a class to be able to do this, but not with 100% accuracy. This is probably the biggest reason they finally got around to fixing surveil.</P> <P>The devs didnt mind the pred's having a pull like this. However now that they have "officially" put in a non-social spell mechanic (which a healer got, grrr) they had to fix surveil.</P> <P>Why make it a Templar AA? No idea...</P> <P> </P>

[Balrok]

<P>I'll live without the pulling skill.... was VERY nice and I will miss it!  please just post cries about the the loss of this ability, whining about our dps is just wrong.  My assassin is just an alt and he's still #1 on raid parses.. except for when our main assassin is on.  A good wizard will come close, but they are streaky.  A bruiser in the right group is close as well.  Long battles, necros will come close too, but with mental breach posion...we can just continue the on-slaught of attacks. AoE encounters.. I'll conseed to the warlock, that's their specialty!    If your not one of the top dps on raids... seriously look at your group setup and talk to your raid leader... cause your not in the right dps groups.  Or look into your aa's....  Or make sure you know how to link all your attacks.  On a good encounter.. there is never an attack I don't have refreshing.... that is including ranged attacks.</P> <P>enjoy</P>

[Kimira]

<div></div><div></div>If you are using mental breach and beating other classes on parses your other dps is TERRIBLE <div></div><p>Message Edited by Kimirahi on <span class="date_text">12-21-2006</span> <span class="time_text">07:30 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Kimirahi on <span class=date_text>12-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:30 AM</span>

[Balrok]

<DIV>lets just take the lab cake walk as an example.  What is considered good/bad dps?  not the all out on names.. just average. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On average I'm only about 1.4k-1.6k dps.  I'm not proud of this, cause yes I get beat sometimes.. and only have falbed gear I've earned threw questing (ie wurmy, dt access).  our main assassin will blow me away.  I'm just curious what I should aim for if my dps is terrible with mental breach.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks</DIV>

[Bhronn]

As a brig, I feel for you guys. Altho Ive not been nerfed as much as you, I do know how it feels to have a skill that I relied upon to be yanked out from under me. InnocentFoH<div></div>

[Kimira]

<div></div>What do you mean by average, the dps you typically do on trash or your zonewide as a whole? Labs also isnt the best example because of how fast mobs get annihilated in there anyway <div></div><p>Message Edited by Kimirahi on <span class=date_text>12-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:39 AM</span>

[Judist]

<P>Not trying to butt in here guys, but I've seen every DPS class achieve about every DPS number.</P> <P>I've seen full fabled wizzies that could only do 1k DPS, and full fabled wizzies that do 2k DPS consistently. Same with Assasins, Necros, Conjs, pretty much every true DPS class. Heck I've seen a DPS/buckler spec'd zerker MT do 1.4k consistently. Why? Skill and Situation.</P> <P>No one class will ever claim the #1 spot because there are <STRONG>sooo</STRONG> many factors. Mobs resists, mob mitigation, group setup. It's neverending guys. Threads on DPS claims are honestlly not worth it. The only DPS threads worth reading are ones sharing ideas and thoughts on how to <STRONG>improve</STRONG> DPS.  Because no matter what amount you achieve, there's a situation where another class can or has done better. This goes both ways.</P> <P>DPS relies on skill and gear, but often moreso on situation/setup. Stick an assasin in the wrong group and you'll kill his numbers. Stick him with a zerk, dirge, brawler, ect... </P> <P>...and he'll show you the meaning of inflicting pain.</P> <P> </P>

[Zin`Car]

<DIV>BTW if any of you want to use my sig, you're welcome to.  i wont mind  =)</DIV>

[Jodah]

<DIV>Where are they headed with our class?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/quit</DIV>

[HazNpho]

The only thing I can say is I'm getting close to turfing this [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] game, I've been through nerf's in Horizons that made us useless, I played an Elemental Archer/Cleric/Spiritist that couldn't solo for a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] because the mobs could hit me at the max range distance of my bow, I couldn't heal myself fast enough to prevent death and they were 10 levels lower then me. Here, I'm seeing the same thing, mobs have gotten harder and we've been given the shaft, with the loss of our non agro pull, I'm starting to really hate seeing my assassin now. Why is it they pick one class every update to nerf beyond use, we had a ranger that betrayed to assassin due to the nerf they gave rangers, now... he's deleted his account and moved to WoW, at least they listen to the players instead of dropping the nerf bomb on a class without notice. Lets face it, sony is just looking for a major loss in their player base, anyone who started assassin and isn't lvl 70 is going to have a hell of a time getting there now, I'm currently only 65 and thats cause of a sony bug where my vitality isn't working anymore and I actually lost a level. So for me to find a group is near to impossible now cause we bring nothing to a group anymore that they can't get and then some from another class. I see these calls out for DPS for a group, I reply and they laugh at me cause they would rather have a mage or Swash/Brig in the group for DPS.<div></div>

[Nathdorl]

@kimirahi>Mind showing your actual zonewide dps number nath?for the stated HoS raid it was round 980and before you start lol'ing: we dont have any brigand.......

[Judist]

<P><FONT color=#ff3300>So for me to find a group is near to impossible now cause we bring nothing to a group anymore that they can't get and then some from another class. I see these calls out for DPS for a group, I reply and they laugh at me cause they would rather have a mage or Swash/Brig in the group for DPS.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>Calling BS on that one...</FONT></P> <P>I have a [Removed for Content] Ranger. No hate transfer, no utility, and most of all no ability to DPS in tight areas (alot of MM Castle) and I've never been denied a DPS role when advertized. If anything, your getting denied because your not lvl70. These days capped players are easy to find. Why pick a 65 when you can get a 70 with a tad more effort/time. </P> <P>T7 groups are just plain harder for <70's to get in. I'll admit, when I start an instance group even if its for Nest(easy), I'm bringing all 70's.</P> <P>Yea it sucks to be level bias (on the recieving end) but no one in their right mind denies a lvl70 Assasin for a DPS role unless they are known for being a poor player. Anyone who starts a group and denies an assasin needs to re-examine their views on the class, cuz good Assasins DPS great. Maybe, the assasins on your server built a poor image of themselves leading to serverwide bias. I <STRONG>do</STRONG> know the good one's here on Oasis are highly sought after.</P> <P>As for this nerf, yea it sucks too. We all agree we're gonna miss it. But the comments about leaving the game because they changed a skill from doing something it wasnt meant to do in the first place? Geeze... The predators role did not revolve around a pull method. If thats all you think you had to bring to the table I feel abit sad, cuz thats an inkling of what you can do.</P> <P>And yes I know its not just surveil, alot of things have been changed. But the games still fun. The JOB still gets done. Nothing has been made impossible here. So instead of all the /quit threats, how bout everyone just makes a name for themselves as being the best Assasin in town. Learn the class better than any other, and be the class people beg to have in their groups and raids.</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by BeatinGuts on <span class=date_text>12-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:33 AM</span>

[khufure]

<div><blockquote><hr>Balrok wrote:<div></div> <div>lets just take the lab cake walk as an example.  What is considered good/bad dps?  not the all out on names.. just average. </div> <div> </div> <div>On average I'm only about 1.4k-1.6k dps.  I'm not proud of this, cause yes I get beat sometimes.. and only have falbed gear I've earned threw questing (ie wurmy, dt access).  our main assassin will blow me away.  I'm just curious what I should aim for if my dps is terrible with mental breach.</div> <div> </div> <div>Thanks</div><hr></blockquote>You should be doing about 9-10% of your raids dps.  With mental breach it will be 7-8%.  There is no reason to use mental breach with fabled weapons and any kind of haste/dps buff.  Just stop mashing and let autoattack go off more.  Use a beholder totem, drink, manastone, power items and you'll be fine.</div>

[Nathdorl]

FULL ACK to beatinguts' posting...(at least the center part bout standing up and start working for ur dps)

[HazNpho]

<div><blockquote><hr>BeatinGuts wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <p><font color="#ff3300">So for me to find a group is near to impossible now cause we bring nothing to a group anymore that they can't get and then some from another class. I see these calls out for DPS for a group, I reply and they laugh at me cause they would rather have a mage or Swash/Brig in the group for DPS.</font></p> <p><font color="#ffffff">Calling BS on that one...</font></p> <p>I have a [Removed for Content] Ranger. No hate transfer, no utility, and most of all no ability to DPS in tight areas (alot of MM Castle) and I've never been denied a DPS role when advertized. If anything, your getting denied because your not lvl70. These days capped players are easy to find. Why pick a 65 when you can get a 70 with a tad more effort/time. </p> <p>T7 groups are just plain harder for <70's to get in. I'll admit, when I start an instance group even if its for Nest(easy), I'm bringing all 70's.</p> <p>Yea it sucks to be level bias (on the recieving end) but no one in their right mind denies a lvl70 Assasin for a DPS role unless they are known for being a poor player. Anyone who starts a group and denies an assasin needs to re-examine their views on the class, cuz good Assasins DPS great. Maybe, the assasins on your server built a poor image of themselves leading to serverwide bias. I <strong>do</strong> know the good one's here on Oasis are highly sought after.</p> <p>As for this nerf, yea it sucks too. We all agree we're gonna miss it. But the comments about leaving the game because they changed a skill from doing something it wasnt meant to do in the first place? Geeze... The predators role did not revolve around a pull method. If thats all you think you had to bring to the table I feel abit sad, cuz thats an inkling of what you can do.</p> <p>And yes I know its not just surveil, alot of things have been changed. But the games still fun. The JOB still gets done. Nothing has been made impossible here. So instead of all the /quit threats, how bout everyone just makes a name for themselves as being the best Assasin in town. Learn the class better than any other, and be the class people beg to have in their groups and raids.</p> <p>Message Edited by BeatinGuts on <span class="date_text">12-21-2006</span> <span class="time_text">11:33 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>One problem with that, I was kicked from one group for a lvl 61 necro, and another for a lvl 63 warlock... It had nothing to do with my level. The things I would have been fighting were blue to me anyways. So level Bias exists, but it was not always the case for me.</div>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> K'aldar wrote:<BR>swash and necro can now consistantly outdps us, wizards can match, warlocks can match zone wide due to very high ae's, and rangers can get pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] close.  <BR><BR>anyway back on topic, yea i liked having somethign else to do in groups and such besides dps.. yay for the nerfage!<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Not to sure on swashy consistently beating assasins. I would say wizard assassins and swashies are about on par w each other DPS wise. It really depends on the zoen and encounters as zone wide parses vary from zoen to zone. caster friendly zones and thw wizard out dps's, melee friendly and the assasin out dps's. The one constant is necros are above and beyond.</P> <P>Warlocks can match zone wide (depending how fast you rezz them). rangers a tiny bit below imho. </P>

[Judist]

<P>If the group leader "kicked" ya for a lower caster, then your probably better of not being in that group. Sounds like he's biased against assasins. Coulda been a bad experience with another assasin also. Either way, not yer fault and a crappy experience.</P> <P> </P>

[HazNpho]

All I know is my friend and I both use ACT, and for the time I was in the group I out DPS'd and easily showed more value then the necro or warlock, but with our surveil line now pulling agro, I'd have a hard time convincing anyone of that. Especially when the MT is a pally and has ammends.<div></div>

[t0gar]

I rarely get a chance to use surviellance on anything except when soloing.(and man was it handy there...) We still rock in groups, usually beating most classes. If someone denies an assassin a group for lack of DPS, well they're stupid plain and simple.<div></div>

[HazNpho]

Yeah, it really did work well for solo, even surveil did from time to time, if it didn't evac helped cause it normally meant 7 or 8 comming my way.<div></div>

[Salat]

<DIV>If your necros arent parsing number 1 on raids, then its your guild not knowing how to use them, or your necros didnt get lifeburn AA.  With bolster on the necro from a healer not in mt group, HoT on them, and group healer direct heals them.  Your necros can do 75K damage on certain named mobs from just LB alone.  Its a 5 min recast timer.  The more HP the mob has, and the amount of HP the necro has, will determine the amount of damage by LB.  On raids, LB should be 14% to 20% of all the necros damage on raids.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, if your mt cant keep aggro when the LB goes off, then the necro dies.  And we all know how much death hurts your parse. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As the mages play with manaburn some are now posting 65K damage from the spell and also on a 5 min timer.  The only reason Necros can do more then mages, is mages have to wait to get some power back to continue casting.  Necros, just need a few heals, but they still have all their mana to keep casting offensive spells.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like I said, if your guild necros arent parsing above you, its simply that your mt isnt holding aggro off them when they use LB and they die.  Or your raid force hasnt been working on ways to allow the necros to get full benefit off LB.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If your guild needs pointers how to maximize LB, put them in of course a hate decreasing group.  Have the necro use a macro to let people know he is going to LB.  Have a ranger in the group pull out the hate reducing bird they have now, and if assassin in mt group and decap up, use it to give the tank 26% hate from decap.  Make sure group healer knows to pump a few heals into him during the process.  Main Guardian tank uses that 14 sec taunt abil or what ever its called.  ((sorry forget name of it at the moment.))  He should hold aggro until LB is done.</DIV>

[CycoZ]

<P>Another stealth nerf of assassins...</P>

[Jodah]

Wasn't there a skill called Vanish a long time ago?

[K'aldar]

<div><blockquote><hr>Gungo wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> K'aldar wrote:swash and necro can now consistantly outdps us, wizards can match, warlocks can match zone wide due to very high ae's, and rangers can get pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] close.  anyway back on topic, yea i liked having somethign else to do in groups and such besides dps.. yay for the nerfage! <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Not to sure on swashy consistently beating assasins. I would say wizard assassins and swashies are about on par w each other DPS wise. It really depends on the zoen and encounters as zone wide parses vary from zoen to zone. caster friendly zones and thw wizard out dps's, melee friendly and the assasin out dps's. The one constant is necros are above and beyond.</p> <p>Warlocks can match zone wide (depending how fast you rezz them). rangers a tiny bit below imho. </p><hr></blockquote>equally geared and well played they can.  since i've not grouped with you you wouldnt' know my dps really, but ask anyone in archon and they'd tell you i kicked [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], as an [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  but as soon as symbolic got a comparable number of masters he could consistantly outdps me, and nomatter what raid zone do about 200 more raidwide dps than me.   to be perfectly honest its because of their quicker refreshes.  nowadays raid dps is so high that you can burn through trash and named like nothing, and nomatter what assassins do their recasts on the good stuff are still gonna be 1min-2min-10min, while swash maintains a much quicker refresh, being able to pull off a nice number every fight instead of a high one every other fight.  even when i can pull out spiked dmg he could still win just with inspiration + his double attack aa(something else they didn't give assassins)i don't mind when swash can outdps sometimes, but i feel really bad when i can crit decapitate, killing blade, and finishing blow in one fight and still not win.on the other side of things, symbolic is the ONLY swash on the server that can do that, and even most other assassins can't compete with me like he does.  so i'm not just saying its a complete class imbalance thing, just that with certain aa's that they're getting they have a much higher potential, with the right person mashing the keys.</div>

[Kimira]

So basically our troubador did more dps than nath in our last HoS run... <div></div>

[Narlix]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Salat wrote:<BR> <DIV>If your necros arent parsing number 1 on raids, then its your guild not knowing how to use them, or your necros didnt get lifeburn AA.  With bolster on the necro from a healer not in mt group, HoT on them, and group healer direct heals them.  Your necros can do 75K damage on certain named mobs from just LB alone.  Its a 5 min recast timer.  The more HP the mob has, and the amount of HP the necro has, will determine the amount of damage by LB.  On raids, LB should be 14% to 20% of all the necros damage on raids.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, if your mt cant keep aggro when the LB goes off, then the necro dies.  And we all know how much death hurts your parse. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As the mages play with manaburn some are now posting 65K damage from the spell and also on a 5 min timer.  The only reason Necros can do more then mages, is mages have to wait to get some power back to continue casting.  Necros, just need a few heals, but they still have all their mana to keep casting offensive spells.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like I said, if your guild necros arent parsing above you, its simply that your mt isnt holding aggro off them when they use LB and they die.  Or your raid force hasnt been working on ways to allow the necros to get full benefit off LB.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If your guild needs pointers how to maximize LB, put them in of course a hate decreasing group.  Have the necro use a macro to let people know he is going to LB.  Have a ranger in the group pull out the hate reducing bird they have now, and if assassin in mt group and decap up, use it to give the tank 26% hate from decap.  Make sure group healer knows to pump a few heals into him during the process.  Main Guardian tank uses that 14 sec taunt abil or what ever its called.  ((sorry forget name of it at the moment.))  He should hold aggro until LB is done.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I would also like to point out That Jester's Cap works on Life burn and Manaburn makeing there recast 2.5 to 3 mins not 5min. troubs really are a mages best friend. Jesters cap normally went to the assassin  for decap ( took the timer down to 6 mins from 10 mins) now with life burn necros always get it.

[Kaiser Sigma]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BeatinGuts wrote:<BR> <P>And yes I know its not just surveil, alot of things have been changed. But the games still fun. The JOB still gets done. Nothing has been made impossible here. So instead of all the /quit threats, how bout everyone just makes a name for themselves as being the best Assasin in town. Learn the class better than any other, and be the class people beg to have in their groups and raids.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT face=Verdana size=2>I think most people are mistakingly addressing the issue here. The problem doesn't lie in losing a method of pulling on raids, the issue is that predators lost an ability that allowed them to solo / duo effectively. I mean, seriously..I've been farming pages in Forsaken City last night. The only way in which you will be able to kill stuff there now is to build negative faction and body pull because any other way is borked.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Meanwhile, mages, summoners and enchanters solo perfectly. And they still are t1 - t2 dps respectively. So as I see it, predators are t1 dps on raids but outside of them they have a huge number of issues to solo / duo stuff. The previously mentioned archetypes, however, do not. They are solid dps'ers and also excellent solo'ers. It's true that by now few believe in balance but it's not too far off the mark to complain about the lack of it.</FONT></P>

[Remann]

<DIV> <HR> </DIV> <P>whydya all complaining bout ur dps? as of the last several raids (including HoS, undoubtful a caster-zone) did always show up the same top-dps dude: me. 2nd/3rd is usually warlocks n then ele/necro/wizzi, rest is way below (guardian mt has some good dps sometimes, buckler ftw)<BR><BR>what are you all complaining about necros n wizards n <insert_class_to_complain_about_here> they are ALL outparsed by an assassin which doesn slack around... so you pro'ly stop watching TV or reading newspapers while raiding and ull be no1 gain...</P> <P></P> <HR> <P>I agree with ya here Nathdorl.  I don't see the complaint on dps.  When dps is needed by the guild, the first thing out of their mouth is, can you bring Noneya your assassin.  We need the heavy dps.  Last Labs Raid, my dps was so high our tanks couldn't keep aggro.  That was even when I disengaged from combat and / or just melee.  To quote a guild mate of mine.   "Noneya your demoted to a finger waggler" </P>

[Lariu]

<DIV>As a raid leading assassin.... I'm not pleased.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ah god.. I'm actually so depressed about this I can't even be bothered to vent.. FFS devs please change this back.</DIV>

[sgbarber]

Can the Master 1 version of Surviellance be changed to 0% chance of social aggro?What templar is going to blow thier AA on a surviel skill over heals?please stop "fixing" things after letting them be for forever (like "amazing reflexes"  I was perfectly fine and happy with my debuffing brigand's having that)<div></div>

[t0gar]

Stealing aggro in labs from tank? You're just not doing your job then... Hate transfer the MT or healer if you're not in MT group. If you're still having aggro issues use ignorant bliss or hit that button on your hotbar labeled Elude. If you're grabbing aggro it's not because of your awesome DPS, but lack of trying to keep it off. Why am I even explaining this... rack up the repairs. And why does every thread turn into how screwed we are on DPS now?/rantSurviellance was my pride and joy. I can't really say there was an ability I liked better on my hotbars. Guess my days of soloing are over. Can't bait mobs to us from a distance safely anymore. I suppose I can body pull, but I'm an assassin... might as well put on a dress and call it dirty nameds. Look at him, sneaking in full sight just waiting for you to attack him first. I'snt it terrifying!? Atleast with surviellance I could open with an AoE. I'm not a tank... or a rouge that practically can.... And i sure as hell dont carry a harp in my strongboxes. An Assassin(and rangers) should be able to single out targets. It's only our proffesion..../rant<div></div>

[Mabes]

As someone who has a templar main, assassin alt, I'm not happy about this.  If I have to respec my templar AA's to get that stupid ability, not gonna be happy, because that would mean giving up either reactive cures, or my blessings buff/debuffs lines.<div></div>

[HellRaiserXX]

I highly doubt that would happen.  Surveillance wasnt a must have ability, just more convenient and made pulling easier.  I doubt your raid leaders would ask you to give up better healing in exchange for easier pulling.  Zone may take just a bit longer, but its not like they have become undoable because surveillance got fixed.

[Jayad]

By the same reasoning, if they took away half your dps, it wouldn't be a problem because things would just take a bit longer.

[HellRaiserXX]

no they would just replace me with someone who could DPS lol

[HazNpho]

Either way you look at it, sony's new and improved looks like they did it in a board room with a couple thousand dollars worth of alchohol available. How is it they justify a plate healer being able to single pull when a ranger and assassin should be better geared to it by class. If you think about it an assassin could throw a rock at his intended target to get his attention and intrest without the target allerting all his freinds untill he knew for sure that he was going into a fight. A templar doing the same thing??? Maybe they should start doing drug tests on a more frequent basis at SoE, cause someone is surely on crack!Then to take away the one thing that defines who we are... our DPS... well, I say this again, sony has it out for assassins and want to see us go. LU13 pretty much got rid of Coercers and the 3 that I knew then... have quit.<div></div>

[Hisvet]

<DIV>Guys please read my post below this one.  Since nobody seems to be testing this out I asked to start trying to do so on my guilds raids and I will continue to do so in each instance.  Surveillance lvl 70 is borked but we're doing successful pulls with high levels of Improved Surveil and Surveil (you know the ones that used to pull aggro?) in its place on Heroic ^^^s)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Start figuring out what works because the line is not consistant and does seem borked.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hisvet, Ranger</DIV>

[Malaqai]

So.... Surveillance is now Socialveillance....?But Improved Surveil is non-social? Haven't thought of testing the lower level ones, I'll try it out in game. If it's true, I'll just hotbar both of them and all's back to normal. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[HazNpho]

Well, a run in SoS last night trying to work on the Claymore line, we tried it about 50-60 times, and rough guess I'd say it worked about 75% of the time. The one mob you need in Trading Information, Exarch Trulnariz, pulled right through the 2 mobs on his left and 2 in front of him without bringing them. Then as we were trying to do wraiths, we got maybe 1 or 2 successfull pulls. Throughout the night we pulled pretty much every fight that way, the named mob in the Armory ended up pulling the entire room on us. So I'd say, don't rely on it, but if you can afford the consequences and would like to chance a quick completion, by all means go for it.<div></div>

[Jabbso]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=Verdana size=2>I think most people are mistakingly addressing the issue here. The problem doesn't lie in losing a method of pulling on raids, the issue is that predators lost an ability that allowed them to solo / duo effectively. I mean, seriously..I've been farming pages in Forsaken City last night. The only way in which you will be able to kill stuff there now is to build negative faction and body pull because any other way is borked.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Meanwhile, mages, summoners and enchanters solo perfectly. And they still are t1 - t2 dps respectively. So as I see it, predators are t1 dps on raids but outside of them they have a huge number of issues to solo / duo stuff. The previously mentioned archetypes, however, do not. They are solid dps'ers and also excellent solo'ers. It's true that by now few believe in balance but it's not too far off the mark to complain about the lack of it.</FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>For me this is it in a nutshell.</P> <P>I'm only Lvl 40 but I have a 70 conjuror. Its clearly obvious that I can pull anything I wish a conjuror but an assassin cant do the same. </P> <P>It must be incredibly frustrating to all you guys who rely on this skill in 'heavy zones' such as Nizara, SoS etc. I just hope it gets fixed soon (preferably before the end of the January as I'll be 70 by then)</P>

[HazNpho]

Call it a bug, but the other night our Conj had better luck getting single mobs then I did, to the point that I could hit something in the closest corner of the room and it would grab the whole room. Anyone know if it was a bug or has sony attempted to 'fix' our Pre-T7 skills in that line?BTW this was in SoS, which is where I first tested Imp. Surviel to see if it worked, and as I had stated we averaged about 75% success. Now it seems like its become Improved Suicide.<div></div>