EOF Assassin AAs - Why bother? Is it a bug if they're just awful?

[Jayad]

<DIV> <P>Am I the only one who feels this way?</P> <P>What is up with Assassin AAs?  I seriously doubt whoever created the EOF AAs raided as an assassin at all.  Or maybe even played an assassin, I can't really tell.</P> <P>Can we trade in all these crappy AA options for one decent one?  I don't care about wasting 25 points if I can put 5 into something I like.  Right now I don't see any point in going above like 25 in EOF.  (That's being generous)  The difference between an Assassin with 75 AA and 100 AA is nada.  I bet it won't even change a raid zone DPS parse by any significant amount, and there's no other abilities or utility you get.</P> <P>That's not to say those 25-30 are particularly good.  In comparing parses, going from 50 to 70 AA has resulted in almost no change.  I attribute almost all of the change to adornments and EOF gear.   It's obvious why this is true.  In the bleeding line, everything affects the DOTs damage.  The DOT portion is always the least important portion because a lot of it goes to waste, and it was only a partial amount of the CA damage to begin with.  What's sad is the bleeding line is the least bad option.</P> <P>I have a warlock alt and their AAs are quite good.  Why would it be so hard to come up with good AAs for assassins?  I mean -- come up with good AAs, and then not remove them.  (You have to add this point here in EQ2 from SOE)  If the EOF AAs are designed to help with secondary type functions, then why do sorcerors get such good AAs <STRONG>which improve their dps</STRONG>?   Seriously, going through every EOF warlock AA ability, they are <STRONG>all</STRONG> useful.  You can augment some dps, debuffs, utility, etc. and not in game-breaking ways.  They're very well thought out, although I'm sure they've been revised a bunch to get here.   A warlock isn't going to become a DPS machine by getting them if they weren't before, but each AA will help a bit, like adding bricks to a wall.  If you put 30 points into the bleeding line in EOF, so what? </P> <P>Our cousins the Rangers don't have great AAs either, by any means, but theirs certainly look a bit better.  (Would you rather have a debuff, or double attacks?  Hemotoxin decrease or caustic improvement?)  I'm forced to conclude that either a) the AAs were not designed by somebody who understood assassins, b) the person designing them didn't really want to improve assassins, or c) the decision was to make assassins a bit worse off compared to other dps classes, purely based on the EOF AAs.  Maybe all three.</P> <P>I'm hoping SOE will just take an axe to the Assassin EOF tree (and probably the Ranger tree should go with it).  Just start over.  Don't save anything from the current ones - it's not worth it.   Our job on raids is DPS.  Help with that.  At least one or two lines should help with DPS in a noticable way.  Not game-breaking or anything, but help me feel it's worth it.  I want to feel like I have only have 50 AAs to spend when I wish it were 80.</P></DIV>

[-Steppenwolf-]

It seems to me that assassins EoF achievements were designed for soloing / PvP assassins (the only Getaway use I can think of is PvP, and it probably sucks even for that).I mean, defensive stance upgrade? Decreasing reuse timers on skills that don't work on epics? Anti-AoE that do not allow to attack ? SPRINT UPGRADE !??!?It looks like the designer plays a level 30 assassin on a PvP server, and he likes to solo a lot too.<div></div>

[steelbadger]

Dude, don't diss the sprint upgrade, it roxxors!<span>:smileyvery-happy:</span><div></div>

[-Steppenwolf-]

I could understand if they thought "Hey, everybody uses the same skills and the same poisons all the time, let's upgrade the weaker/least used ones to provide more options". Only there are 2 problems:1 - They failed at that, because either they weren't upgraded enough to make them an actual option, either they're not usable in raids / not useful in groups.2 - This is not the case for other classes, who actually got improvements on important skills.Because of that, EoF AAs actually bring nothing new, and most importantly, nothing to look forward to...<div></div>

[GerOcrana]

<DIV>i said the same in an other Assassin Thread...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The EoF Archievement is like a fist in the toilet ^^ </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Created by Guys there playing the Class maybe with Level Buff and 1h and walking around and thinking... hey PvP is cool eh ? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>dammit, no Tree is very helpfully on Raids... useless nothing more. 30% on 100er Melee DoT Ticks, no helpful stuff to increase our DPS, thats so ROFL. </DIV> <DIV>No Dev comments anything in our Boards, its not interesting enough, would whine here 3k Players "maybe" SOE takte a change.</DIV> <DIV>But the EoF Tree is boring, woohoo i get 30 dmg more dot ticks, amazing LOL. Or i get a one Trigger AE Immune with stealth and have to wait 30 secs for one AE and the recast is over 1 Min and xx Secs on the next AE i have to joust or get down. I cannot attack when the spell is active oh yessss, my dps goes down during that time, thats a joke really ? im so unhappy about the EoF AA Theme <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </DIV> <DIV>All others get amazing updates and what get we ? Boring useless stuff... PvE uninteresting things... SOE nerfed us over the time since release to do NOTHING Solo, and now we can upgrade durations with stiffle or root... oh lol <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please cut the Tree, and make a better one that help us in Raids and DPS... not in PvP. The Maingame is PvE not PvP sorry i dont understand that stuff <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Computer MAn]

I am currently sitting at 97 AA's and have almost all the AA's that are even semi decent and I agree our AA's are messed up. I would love +5% increase to our big attacks per rank or recast reductions on some of our attacks. Just looking at my monks tree they have many reuse reductions and increased damage to spells which I feel would be a lot more beneficial than 30% extra on our dots. If they won't redo the tree I would like to see the ability to use points in the KOS trees (I know it won't happen) as I can see more use in 16% chance to attack mulitple targets with auto attack or even ranged crit percentage as far as DPS goes.<div></div>

[Jayad]

<P>I think what happened is they wanted to give different kinds of assassins options with their points through the different trees.  The problem is, the trees which increase damage potential are awful.  No, wait.  Awful is better than they are.  They're <STRONG>horrible</STRONG>.  You stick 25 points in the bleeding tree and it does very little.  This has to be fixed. </P> <P>Given the assassin's role in raiding and grouping, there should be two trees that provide significant upgrades for our main role.  Let the other trees help solo, utility, or pvp.  My warlock gets three trees that help with damage either through increasers, reduceres, or effect improvement.  (The other one helps debuffs and utility in good ways)</P> <P>I have the feeling by 100 AAs & geared out we're going to be behind the dps of top rangers, warlocks, wizards, conjurers, necros, and swashies.   Is there any reason to not think so?</P>

[Jvaloth]

<DIV>Well I've already fallen from #1 dps to #3-4 in my guild.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have to go absolutely balls out every fight to keep my head above the water now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Because alot of classes got legit upgrades to their AA's and we got absolute crap.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its disheartening.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Friend of mine keeps asking me "Well do you enjoy playing your assassin when you don't compare yourself to all the classes that are now beating you on parses?"  and I replied yes.. somewhat reluctantly.      </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you look at the other classes that got stronger, virtually all of them have better soloability, have better debuffs, have more versatility and yet they are doing equal to OR more dps than I am.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm an assassin, I've got pathfinding and DPS.    Yet now 5-6 other classes can DPS almost as good, if not better than me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Total BS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fix our AA's.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Kingphillywilly]

<P>not to mention the 1 AA on our main debuff - contriction - has no benefit whatsoever. Reduced recast on something that last twice as long as its recast already?</P> <P> </P> <P>thanks</P>

[CycoZ]

<P>The assassin AAs are very poor.</P> <P>I have went down the bleed line but cannot even bear to chose what line to go down next as they are just so useless.</P> <P>I like the sound of frontload but does it justify spending 20 AA points on completely useless achievements?</P> <P>I still come top of the parse over a raid but it is a lot closer than it used to be. Rangers, necros and conjurers all seem to have got decent upgrades from their AA's. Will need to see how the parses compare once we are all at 100 AA points to see how badly affected we are.</P> <P>Can't help but feel these AAs are a stealth nerf of the class.</P> <P>I also cannot solo even half as well as I used to be able to. All green and some blue heroics used to be decent fights but now even lower level green heroics regularly beat me. I am tempted by the tricks line because of this but wouldn't want to sacrifice any raid/group dps for this.</P> <P>To me it doesn't make sense that classes that can solo a lot better than us and don't have to work even half as hard during a fight can now pretty much achieve the same dps as us.</P> <P>Feels a bit like t6 all over again.</P> <P>Would love to be able to stick a far higher percentage (75%) of AA points into the predator achievements.</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by CycoZ on <span class=date_text>12-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:57 PM</span>

[Jvaloth]

<DIV> <P>"To me it doesn't make sense that classes that can solo a lot better than us and don't have to work even half as hard during a fight can now pretty much achieve the same dps as us."</P> <P> </P> <P>I've said it before and I'll say it again... No other class in this game works harder for their DPS than an assassin.  The sheer number of positional or stealth requirements for our skills make it alot of work to put down top notch DPS.</P> <P>For this reason alone, I've always argued that assassin's should be #1 dps in the game.  We have no utility, no ability to solo, nothing but DPS.</P> <P>Yes now 6-7 other classes can burn our DPS , can solo, can debuff, can do all that we can do and much more.</P> <P>Its simply not acceptable for us to get reamed like this when it comes to AA's.     Its pretty clear that none of the people making these decisions actually plays an assassin or they wouldnt be so [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] clueless.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P></DIV>

[Outerspace]

<div></div><div></div>I agree with all that's been said, however I don't see anyone suggesting anything that they would like to see included in the AA lines. Maybe if we put some ideas into the developers' heads they might consider them. I'm not really that fussed about the AE immunity thing, it's just a shame SOE introduced it and it was sort of useful and now its 100% pointless. It's unfortunate that they seem to think all assassins play on the PvP servers or spend their EQ2 time soloing green solo mobs.Here are my PvE motivated ideas to improve our completely hopeless current AA selection:- some kind of double attack- new passive ability "serial killer" which acts like a berserk proc to increase haste by a large amount for a very short time- option to enhance Deadly Focus with some % melee crit as well- option to enhance caustic poison (make it proc and add a small residual "burning tissue" DoT or something, like Adestes. Or just more damage, or more average procs per minute.)- option to add a small "perfect slice" debuff proc (physical mit, or poison mit, or debuff that enhances bleed abilities in some way) to weapons- option to enhance proc rate of my offensive stance up to 30%, instead of some stupid defensive stance thing that nobody uses- option to enhance hemotoxin and increase both its tick rate and its damage- option to modify Exacting to include 1 minute recast abilities- toggleable ability to proc a small "bleeding" DoT on every hit, or a short term buff that does something similar- enchance Scraping Blow and other DoT's by having the initial few ticks be up to 30% of the DD component, for more burst damage, i.e. 400 DD, 150 tick, 130 tick, 75, 75- enchance Slaughtersault by giving it a 100% chance to proc poison, or give it a 1s stun proc on all mobsOr how about this. I'd settle for this alone..- option to have both weapons proc poison (or have a chance to proc poison) independently, like it used to be <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span>Just give us the chance to improve the stuff we USE instead of the stuff we don't. I know some of the above are "zomg they'll never change that" and the names you might think are stupid, but they're just ideas.<div></div><p>Edit: hadn't read the other thread with the list of (different) suggestions in it<span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by Outerspace on <span class=date_text>12-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:43 PM</span>

[HellRaiserXX]

<P>Heres the thing with suggestions from the public.  Everyone just puts a wish list of the best things they think they should get that other classes are getting or the things will make them uberer. I have yet to see anyone post something that may be feasible.  Some are good ideas, but most are usually not really appropriate for this progression in the game.</P> <P>What needs to be done is not just throw out the current Assassin tree and start over, but redesign it along the same lines, but with more direction.  There needs to be lines that work well for PvP, PvE group/raid, and PvE solo that way everyone has something.  EoF AAs were supposed to define each class and hone each classes strengths and improve on their weaknesses.  In this respect, SOE failed across the board.  It is easy to see which classes got more work, which are more favored, and which classes aren't. If our AAs don't improve our DPS they need to improve our utility, an area where predators are completely lacking. If I had the power I would take everyones AAs back to square one and redesign them all using feedback from the people who play them.  No one knows assassins better than the people who play them, same with every other class. If Soe brought teams of the more knowledgable players from each class into beta and let them test and design AAs, everyone would get what they wanted while holding true to SOEs design.  The way SOE does testing is why everything gets so screwy and it often isnt till Live comes out that the real testing starts.</P><p>Message Edited by HellRaiserXX on <span class=date_text>12-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:16 PM</span>

[DresdenMalicaster]

<DIV>EoF AAs are horrible.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd rather stick my face into some acid than spend my time grinding for those.</DIV>

[Skratttt]

<P>I say that repeated stabbing needs to be changed......maybe give us a 10% to double atack that would fit in perfectly with how rangers get theirs</P> <P>Instead of that crapy Getaway...maybe give us an increased % to crit when mobs are bellow 20% hp...maybe 20% higher when mobs are in the red <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> that would be fun..</P> <P>Swipe needs to be changed on its own ...no aa....enhance apply poison??how bout we change frontload to a straight up...10% higher change to proc permanent (bards get this! why not us <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )</P>

[Outerspace]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>HellRaiserXX wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <p>Heres the thing with suggestions from the public.  Everyone just puts a wish list of the best things they think they should get that other classes are getting or the things will make them uberer. I have yet to see anyone post something that may be feasible.  Some are good ideas, but most are usually not really appropriate for this progression in the game.</p><hr></blockquote>You might be right about the feasibility of some of the things that have been suggested, and you're certainly right about wanting some of the things other classes get. However, I'd like to see what your suggestions are since you didn't post any <span>:smileyhappy:</span>Honestly, I don't see any reason why Repeated Stabbing couldn't be a double attack instead of something that doesn't do anything. It makes more sense for a melee class to be double attacking than a class that shoots arrows. I don't see any reason why they can't give us some melee crit options on Deadly Focus or on Honed Reflexes. I don't see any reason why they can't give us an improved Caustic poison. I have no idea what gave them the idea that people actually used Hemotoxin before EoF. I don't see any reason why our offensive stance can't be improved to 30% proc rate (like all other scout classes).They seem to have given other EASY MODE classes some nice upgrades causing them to gain DPS through no extra effort. There needs to be a reason to be a certain class. Something to define them. Assassin was defined by being the top single target DPS class bar none. The changes SOE have made with regards the EoF AA lines have caused other classes to have the tools to question our dominance of the parser, and most of them only have to stand in one spot at max range spamming their hotbars.</div><p>Message Edited by Outerspace on <span class=date_text>12-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:10 AM</span>

[judged_one]

<blockquote><hr>Jvaloth wrote:<DIV>Well I've already fallen from #1 dps to #3-4 in my guild.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I have to go absolutely balls out every fight to keep my head above the water now.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Because alot of classes got legit upgrades to their AA's and we got absolute crap.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Its disheartening.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Friend of mine keeps asking me "Well do you enjoy playing your assassin when you don't compare yourself to all the classes that are now beating you on parses?"  and I replied yes.. somewhat reluctantly.      </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>If you look at the other classes that got stronger, virtually all of them have better soloability, have better debuffs, have more versatility and yet they are doing equal to OR more dps than I am.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I'm an assassin, I've got pathfinding and DPS.    Yet now 5-6 other classes can DPS almost as good, if not better than me.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Total BS.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Fix our AA's.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><hr></blockquote>Well, a while back I made a similar comment in the assassin channel, but I guess no one really cared at that point. Something is wrong when a class have to risk the most vs Rangers, Caster, hell even Swashy due to aoe etc just to do similar or subpar aoe. SOE need to realize the meaning of class balance. CLASS BALANCE ASSASSIN - Worst range attack out of all the so call T1 DPSASSASSIN + RANGER - Worst debuff class out of all the scoutASSASSIN - DPSSo what the hell do you guys do... give us bunch of craptastic AA.Now fix it.

[Satie]

<div></div><div></div>I agree with everything above.  We are just a space filler in a raid is all we are right now.  We dont bring anything to a raid that other classes with utility dont.  I think we are 300-500dps or so less from where we should be and we need to be able to do dps regardless of fight, not just on trash mobs seeing how every mob in eof is a ranged fight now.Heres some thoughts on what i think it should be done. . .- Swipe should NOT BE LESS THEN 1% of my tottal dps lol, get a grip please. . . should be 5-10% MINIMUM.- We should do more melee damage, dualwield is inferior to 1handler/bow classes with double attack. . . make it not so.  It only makes sence for the class thats supposed to be best melee dps.- If i am to lose auto attack damage for having to stealth for my cas, make them more worth so.- Decapitate on 3-5min, Killing blade on 1min- We are already paying a price for getting secondary skills upgraded in the bleeding line, make it 30% on initial AND dots.  Add more procs to Mark in bleeding line.- Dont just try to make an inferior poison not so inferior in the poisons AA line. . . we want DPS.  I like the idea of adding a dot to caustic that got mentioned somewhere above, something like caustic + hemotoxin in one.- Frontload. . . Passive:  assassins primary AND secondary weapons will trigger procs (i dont feel like theres a benefit from dualwielding at all right now, sorry)- Ok, you make pretty much every EoF mob aoe heavy, what is an assassin supposed to do?  chew their nails with ranged on?  Sounds like a wasted spot in the raid.Basically, make me feel like an Assassin again and not so a burden.Satinah/Salinah<div></div><p>Message Edited by Satie on <span class="date_text">12-14-2006</span> <span class="time_text">10:43 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Satie on <span class=date_text>12-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:46 AM</span>

[HellRaiserXX]

Im working on a complete revision of our AA tree, will post my suggestions eventually. Just cant decide on the type of background I want for each line, once I do that Ill start working on some ideas <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><p>Message Edited by HellRaiserXX on <span class=date_text>12-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:53 AM</span>

[DresdenMalicaster]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jvaloth wrote:<BR> <DIV>Well I've already fallen from #1 dps to #3-4 in my guild.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have to go absolutely balls out every fight to keep my head above the water now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Because alot of classes got legit upgrades to their AA's and we got absolute crap.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its disheartening.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Friend of mine keeps asking me "Well do you enjoy playing your assassin when you don't compare yourself to all the classes that are now beating you on parses?"  and I replied yes.. somewhat reluctantly.      </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you look at the other classes that got stronger, virtually all of them have better soloability, have better debuffs, have more versatility and yet they are doing equal to OR more dps than I am.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm an assassin, I've got pathfinding and DPS.    Yet now 5-6 other classes can DPS almost as good, if not better than me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Total BS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fix our AA's.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Perhaps you just aren't playing your character as well?</P> <P>I'm still pulling 2k-2.2k on average in raids with only about 70 AAs...</P>

[Brizlyn]

<HR> <P>I'm still pulling 2k-2.2k on average in raids with only about 70 AAs...</P> <P></P> <HR> <P>Could you paste a zonewide parse screenshot of an EOF raid zone (freethinkers, inner sanctum, EH)  that you are averaging 2.2k dps in?</P> <P>Pls provide zone totals for damage as well.  Thx.</P>

[Skratttt]

<DIV>Oh yah add a 1 aditional effect per level of the mark line....maxing out at 10 triggers FTW <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </DIV>

[Computer MAn]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Brizlyn wrote:<div></div> <hr> <p>I'm still pulling 2k-2.2k on average in raids with only about 70 AAs...</p> <p></p> <hr> <p>Could you paste a zonewide parse screenshot of an EOF raid zone (freethinkers, inner sanctum, EH)  that you are averaging 2.2k dps in?</p> <p>Pls provide zone totals for damage as well.  Thx.</p><hr></blockquote>I think I parsed 1600 or so in Inner sanctum last night granted I died quite a few times and was afk for about 10 mins (couple fights) so I think 2k is definately doable. I will parse this weeks EOF run and see how I do.PS: Try and get an Illusionist in your group. Illusionary Arm and Time Compression ftw!</div><p>Message Edited by Computer MAn on <span class=date_text>12-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:25 AM</span>

[Mr. Dawki]

<DIV>Well I've already fallen from #1 dps to #3-4 in my guild.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have to go absolutely balls out every fight to keep my head above the water now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Because alot of classes got legit upgrades to their AA's and we got absolute crap.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its disheartening. <HR> </DIV> <P>same im being beaten al the time now, when i used to be 400-500 dps above everyone</P> <P>im not mad about being beaten, not so much as how much its by about 400-500 and by classes that should not be doing it</P> <P>a warlock now can own me on a single target</P> <P>AN ILLUSIONIST CAN DO THE SAME</P> <P>now i think its great that every class has a way to dps now, but when a support class starts doing dps class #'s then the dps classess need some love</P> <P>i am againsed nerfs 100% i dont want to see a nerf i want to see an improvement in the assassin dps</P> <P>dont nerf everyone to make us better by comparison just make us better</P> <P>less work on your parts <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P>now time for sugestions</P> <P>i think something that would be nice is some sort of timer reduction, not more short ability buffs we got 3 already we dont need more, or adding more ticks to malignant mark, like 3 more</P> <P>i like the dot % increase but like everyone said its minimal</P> <P>maby another reuse timer reduc....like make decap a 5min timer rather than 15-10 min.  </P> <P>or a swarm pet (a bunch or freeking ninjas pop out and backstab the enemy, can only be from stealth and behind target)</P> <P>a poison based ae attack (that would rock) we get some of the largest poison based debuffs and the fewest poison based attacks to use with them so more poison based dmg would be nice</P> <P>A DPS DEBUFF, so we can have some support debuffs that are sought after, so we wont just be mindless sword swingers anymore</P><p>Message Edited by Mr. Dawkins on <span class=date_text>12-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:42 AM</span>

[Armill]

Let's move this topic to the achievement forum or to another one besides are assassin boards. Dev's dont really care about us and almost hardly ever visit are boards, so lets take this to another one...and lets make ourselves heard...NVM i guess there already is a post there but theres only like 7 or 8 replies. We need to kick it up another notch people, lets make that [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] post 100's of replies long...make the dev's hear us.<p>Message Edited by Armill on <span class=date_text>12-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:19 AM</span>

[Mr. Dawki]

<P>moving to </P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=achievements&message.id=5969" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=achievements&message.id=5969</A></P>

[Armill]

You heard him BOYS....LETS MOVE OUT!!!!!

[Jayad]

<P>I've added my thoughts to it. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>our good guild ranger btw is creeping closer.. he will soon pass me on zone parses. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Armill]

If your an assassin and you are dissatisfied with are aa's and are knockdown from a t1 dps to t2 than go over to the achievement forums now and post your ideas and thoughts on how we can make are class better. We keep it up long enough SoE has to hear us.

[LoreLady]

Heres what it boils down to - Class ballance, soloability, weakspots in the class.. Assassins were kinda overpowering in KoS - and rangers/warlocks/rangers have AA's to compinsate for that, you have quicker reuse timers and aa's that turn dots into near DD's. If you look at KoS dps on assassins vs rangers, and then look at EoF aa's on assassins vs rangers - you will see that the type of aa's scale with the damage.. And dont knock the ones you have - a 20% chance to proc is a great thing for an assassin, and a large boost to dps, getaway a nother nice boost to have, double duration stun - another nice thing to have.. Quicker recasts on heavy assassin abilitys (I believe one is 40s) - an amazing thing to have. The AA's you were given were ment to help the assassin solo - do consistant damage in groups - and doing consistant damage on a longterm basis..Assassins who were once rangers claim that once they rolled an assassin - there dps skyrocketed (xney your one of them).. You have to take a step back and ask yourself "ok whats going on here" sometimes.

[Jayad]

<P>Uhm do more consistent damage long-term?? What are you smoking?  There are maybe two good AA abilities for assassin plus some minor DPS boosting from the bleeding line.  That's it.   Frontload is a POS, getaway is useless now.  Repeated stabbing does nothing useful.  Have you even used any?  Other dps classes have a lot more than a wimpy AA line and 1 or 2 good abilities.  That's without even getting into the absurd gear itemization in EOF, like all this caster gear which directly increases damage or procs, versus melee gear which doesn't.</P> <P>My DPS did go up as an assassin, and with better gear, it's true, but I also have seen better rangers now as well.  Having a good bow plus t8 legendary ammo makes an absurd difference.  Our best ranger now has zone parses about the same as mine.</P> <P>I respect the effort you put into analyzing ranger vs. assassin but really I don't think you have any idea about the current AA situation.  The ranger ones are by no means great or anything, but they do have more decent ones.  Some of the DPS classes have a lot of good ones.</P>

[Outerspace]

If we are comparing classes, in my opinion assassin DPS should always exceed that of a ranger simply because of the play style. Assassin has to work hard for DPS - less so for a ranger (or any other ranged DPS).<div></div>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>Outerspace wrote:If we are comparing classes, in my opinion assassin DPS should always exceed that of a ranger simply because of the play style. Assassin has to work hard for DPS - less so for a ranger (or any other ranged DPS).<div></div><hr></blockquote>Please dont say statements like this again, you CLEARLY dont know rangers OR assassins in this statement - and frankly.. It really irritates me..Lets put it this way outerspace - no one that has played my character can get the positioning right on a ranger, I can play an assassin - rearrange some of the hotbars and do similar DPS.. An assassin that swaps to a ranger, cant get the positioning right (with afew exceptions).. Rangers require as much to more effort than most classes out there due to positioning of the sweetspot. And thinking that we can maintain dps ranged really shows your ignorance.</div>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>Xney wrote:<div></div> <p>Uhm do more consistent damage long-term?? What are you smoking?  There are maybe two good AA abilities for assassin plus some minor DPS boosting from the bleeding line.  That's it.   Frontload is a POS, getaway is useless now.  Repeated stabbing does nothing useful.  Have you even used any?  Other dps classes have a lot more than a wimpy AA line and 1 or 2 good abilities.  That's without even getting into the absurd gear itemization in EOF, like all this caster gear which directly increases damage or procs, versus melee gear which doesn't.</p> <p>My DPS did go up as an assassin, and with better gear, it's true, but I also have seen better rangers now as well.  Having a good bow plus t8 legendary ammo makes an absurd difference.  Our best ranger now has zone parses about the same as mine.</p> <p>I respect the effort you put into analyzing ranger vs. assassin but really I don't think you have any idea about the current AA situation.  The ranger ones are by no means great or anything, but they do have more decent ones.  Some of the DPS classes have a lot of good ones.</p><hr></blockquote>Well lets take a look where assassins are currently weak in.. - Soloing, Fast fights, and heavy recasts on heavier arts.. Where are assassins strong in? Putting out high damage..Now if we assume that in KoS there was a 20-30% diffrence in CA dps without t8 ammo, we can assume that the AA's were reworked to makeup this diffrence.. We can also assume that that there is a "average damage" between all t1 classes, and its a question of where it is in EoF - this I cant answer.. But I susepct that the average damage between t1 classes are going to be very similar now..Dont look at it as "I dident get any good aa's" - Look at it as "ok, this is helping filling out where I am weak".. This is what the expansion is - is nothing but class ballance. Also - keep in mind one last thing, when comparing ranger/assassin aa's - keep in mind we dont get "usefull" ranged adornments, or a "usefull" diety - assassins get a +45 dmg per hit with duel weilds to makeup the auto attack diffrence iwth t8 ammo/duel wields..</div>

[Kingphillywilly]

<DIV>or howabout look at it like - oo this [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]e doesnt benefit me or my raid a fookin bit</DIV>

[LoreLady]

40s reduction in exacting - sounds good to me..50% to trigger a poison - again sounds good to meAn extra 5% to proc ur apply poison - again sounds good to me, increased util.20% increase in ur defense debuff - again sounds good to me, improved raid dps right there10s reuse reduction in your debuff - again increases everyones dps.20% increase to dmg with bleed30% increase to dmg with impale5% increase to proc mark20% increase to your AE - hidden assaultAnd not to mention having 0.25s recovery time over everyone else's 0.5s recovery time..Seriously, the doom and gloom is unessassary.. Your dps is great as it is, as well as ballanced.. Yes your dps doesnt progress "as much" as some other classes with AA's - but those other classes were in much more need of aa's than assassins.

[UberC]

<div><blockquote><hr>LoreLady wrote:40s reduction in exacting -<font color="#ff0033"> sounds good to me..</font>50% to trigger a poison - again <font color="#ff3333">sounds good to me</font>An extra 5% to proc<font color="#ff0000"> ur</font> apply poison - again <font color="#ff0000">sounds good to me</font>, increased util.20% increase in <font color="#ff0000">ur</font> defense debuff - <font color="#ff0000">again sounds good to me</font>, improved raid dps right there<font color="#ff0000">10s reuse reduction in your debuff - again increases everyones dps.</font>20% increase to dmg with bleed30% increase to dmg with impale<font color="#ff0000">5% increase to proc mark</font>20% increase to <font color="#ff0000">your </font>AE - hidden assault<font color="#ff3300">And not to mention having 0.25s recovery time over everyone else's 0.5s recovery time..</font>Seriously, the doom and gloom is unessassary.. <font color="#ff0000">Your dps is great as it is, </font>as well as ballanced.. Yes your dps doesnt progress "as much" as some other classes with AA's - but those other classes were in much more need of aa's than assassins.<hr></blockquote>Bits in red make me think you dont play a raiding assassin - sorry if you do - but I think you are missing why there is all this doom and gloom. Thing is, with DPS is fine as it is, if all other classes are getting better and we are fine as we are, they are soon much better than us whilst we are stuck with KoS damage +52dps (or what ever someone better at math than me worked it out as) plus what ever EoF gear has to offer - which everyone gets, so moot point <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Kingphillywilly]

<P>exacting sure thats alrite, still very rarely going to get it off more than once per fight</P> <P> </P> <P>50% trigger to poison, ROFLMAO debuff poisons last for 1min18 sec - great</P> <P>dethreat poison, well lets face it who cares we dont pull agro transferring</P> <P>hemotoxin with 5AAs is still worse than caustic on someone with no int (tested myself)</P> <P>so really it procs cautic twice the amount for 15seconds, well casutic procs 5times per min average, so for those 15seconds you might get 3 procs if you are lucky.</P> <P> </P> <P>proc to apply poison? that lasts for almost half a min and procs 15% of the time, so that overlaps as it is</P> <P>increase defence debuff - i already hit 95% of the time, and the increase it gives wont change that, maybe to 96% - woot</P> <P>10sec reuse reduction to debuff - which already lasts twice as long as its reuse - yeh thanks for noticing that one</P> <P>20% dmg and 30%dmg is to the dot ticks which are small % of the combat art damage, woop tee doo basil - still for what AAs we been given these are the best atm</P> <P>5% increase proc to mark - im still laughing now, because that procs within 1second on raids - im surprised it lasts for 1second the couple of times it does</P> <P>20%increase is to the dot dmg which is small again</P> <P> </P> <P>0.25sec recovery requires 20 completely wasted AAs to get, so woot thanks for that, truely, thanks - never going to get it</P> <P> </P> <P>thanks for your input lorelady but really only one of those that you listed is what i would consider good - exacting reuse</P> <P>dot increases and the adds to exacting/honed reflexes are the best we have been offered</P> <P>deadly focus is waste too because in MT grp with coercer STR acrylia ring proc takes me to 195% dps for 45seconds</P>

[Outerspace]

Yay for rangers coming in here telling us our AA's are fine.I can't believe you actually quoted the Constriction AA as an upgrade.<div></div>

[Armill]

<DIV>Is "dps progess" supposed to mean that classes with more utility, more debuffs, should out dps us. Hell no it doesn't, thats just stupid, im fine with a wizard or warlock outdpsing me if they work for it. In my personal opinon assassins should be the highest dps class in the game since we have to do the most work for are dps and we sacrifice any inkling of group utility and debuffs for this but when other classes that have those things can out dps than there is a huge huge problem. The best way they can fix us is by getting rid of are PvP aa bullcrap and put some AA's in the game that are decent and going to actually help us out. Or maybe put in dozens of items with like Pierce IV or II or something which deals an additonal 20 piercing damage, cause god knows just about every piece of caster gear in EoF is getting that [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] bolt ability.<BR></DIV>

[Rian18]

<DIV><STRONG></STRONG><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LoreLady wrote:<BR>40s reduction in exacting - sounds good to me..<BR>50% to trigger a poison - again sounds good to me<BR>An extra 5% to proc ur apply poison - again sounds good to me, increased util.<BR>20% increase in ur defense debuff - again sounds good to me, improved raid dps right there<BR>10s reuse reduction in your debuff - again increases everyones dps.<BR>20% increase to dmg with bleed<BR>30% increase to dmg with impale<BR>5% increase to proc mark<BR>20% increase to your AE - hidden assault<BR><BR>And not to mention having 0.25s recovery time over everyone else's 0.5s recovery time..<BR><BR>Seriously, the doom and gloom is unessassary.. Your dps is great as it is, as well as ballanced.. Yes your dps doesnt progress "as much" as some other classes with AA's - but those other classes were in much more need of aa's than assassins.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Wow.  Their have been some pretty ridiculous things written in these forums but that might take the cake.  If you do not play an Assassin then please refrain from making inane comments.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let me break down for you these "Sounds good to me" abilities you like, since you are probably a Necro or Wizard.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>40s reduction in exacting</STRONG>- Is an ok ability it may allow it to be up twice on certain fights.  Key word <STRONG>May.  </STRONG>How poor are things when we are getting excited over an AA that may possibly allow us to use an ability a bit more on certain fights.  I mean could we add more stipulations?  Sadly, this is perhaps our best overall AA.  Not quite, Manaburn, Lifeburn, Double attack etc etc is it?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>50% to trigger a poison - </STRONG>You win for twisting words.  Making it seem like its a permanent 50% increase to poisons.  So for a few seconds every 5 minutes we have twice the chance to proc effects.</DIV> <DIV><BR>Ok lets break this one down into detail shall we:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Debuff poisons- Lasts over 1 minute already.   Without "increasing" the trigger chance their already proccing over themselves.  End result means the ability is Useless for these types of poisons.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dethreat poisons- Ok so for a few seconds I may proc a poison to lower my aggro.  Wonderful.  With our Hate transfer Assassins rarely have aggro problems as is, and I assure you that having a few extra seconds where it may proc once or twice more means nothing.  Nothing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hemotoxin-  [Removed for Content].  Great so I may proc a poison more which is a DOT effect.  Wonderful.  How about this, parses have shown that Frontload actually <STRONG>lessens</STRONG> the amount of damage that Hemotoxin poisons do while active.  How's that grab you.  You actually DO less dps with Frontload then you do without it.  Why? Hemotoxin is a DOT effect.  Since it does not <STRONG>stack</STRONG> and it already (sine to get this ridiculous AA you have to take the more ridiculous 5/5 Hemotoxin AA) lasts 19 seconds, this means you are actually Proccing the poison before it runs out!  The value of Hemo poisons is in getting near their full duration.  If you are proccing it before the poison runs its course it <STRONG>overwrites</STRONG> itself and you lose the remaining ticks.</DIV> <DIV><BR>Ex: </DIV> <DIV> Hemo hits</DIV> <DIV>Tick 1 (dmg)</DIV> <DIV>Tick 2 (dmg)</DIV> <DIV>Hemo hits again (Tick 3/Tick 4 dmg LOST).  Great so I have an AA which actually lessens the damage that one of my poisons does.  Great call.  This point alone proves you do not play an Assassin or a scout of any class.</DIV> <DIV><BR>The kicker is that parses have also shown that even with 5/5 Hemotoxin, Caustic poisons <STRONG>still </STRONG>win in total damage.  I'll refer you to this posts by Kingphillywilly and his screenshots.  You can see it here:  <A href="http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o109/kingphillywilly/hemo.jpg" target=_blank>http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o109/kingphillywilly/hemo.jpg</A> and here <A href="http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o109/kingphillywilly/causticcopy.jpg" target=_blank>http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o109/kingphillywilly/causticcopy.jpg</A>.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Looks pretty close doesn't it?  Until you realize that  the Assassin using Caustic had an intel of only 96 and the one using Hemo (5/5) was at 360 Int!  So even with a discrep[ancy of 260+ intel in the favor of Hemo, Caustic still won.  Yes an amazing talent Frontload is.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>An extra 5% to proc ur apply poison</STRONG> -  Great! So a poison which already overwrites itself (Apply poison is a Hemotoxin poison) can be increased to proc more.  See my point on hemotoxin above to see what a great ability this is.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>10s reuse reduction in your debuff - again increases everyones dps-  </STRONG>AWESOME! So you are reducing the duration of an ability that already last <STRONG>LONGER</STRONG> then the cool down.  Wonderful.  So now, the ability can stay on my hotbar not used for a slightly longer time while I wait for its effects to end in the first place.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>20% increase to dmg with bleed/30% increase to dmg with impale- </STRONG>Wrong again.  Posts like this really bother me, because its obvious you are only trying to twist words to fit your logic.  If the increase was 20% and 30% as you claim <STRONG>no one</STRONG> would be complaining.  Its not.  Its an increase <STRONG>only</STRONG> to the <STRONG>DOT</STRONG> portion of the effect which is a <STRONG>minute</STRONG> portion of the damage.  Someone was nice enough to do the DPS calculation for us about how much damage this added.  I believe the exact amount was less then 10 total DPS.  SO for 20 points we can gain 10 DPS.  Wonderful.  What makes this even more ridiculous is this is considered our <STRONG>best</STRONG> AA line.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>30% increase to dmg with impale- </STRONG>Great so an ability which is already gone within 1 or 2 seconds of being put up can proc more.  Hey, now just remove the cooldown and cast time completely and we may actually be able to spam the button fast enough on raids to make sure its always up.  Maybe.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>20% increase to your AE - hidden assault- </STRONG>Twist, twist, twist.  Incorrect again.  The 20% increase is to the<STRONG> DOT</STRONG> damage not to the actuall <STRONG>Ability</STRONG>.  Do I need to explain this again?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>And not to mention having 0.25s recovery time over everyone else's 0.5s recovery time- </STRONG>This one takes the cake.  The recovery time decrease is so insignficant its impossible to explain.  We, can already chain our abilities fast enough.  The kicker is, that with ever usual zone lag .25s or .50s means nothing.  Its always about .50s regardless.  Also the amount of auto attack gained is nothing.  Even if zone lag were zero and you chained all your Ca's together rapid fire, your talking about gaining an extra <STRONG>1 or 2 seconds</STRONG> of auto attack time.  Thats it.  That for the <STRONG>Final </STRONG>ability in the line.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its very obvious, that you do not play an Assassin.  In fact, with what you said about poisons i'd say you do not play a Swashie, Brigand or Ranger either.  If you do happen to play one, then your understanding of the class is obviously not up to par and flawed.  The points other Assassins have raised are valid points, and deserve to be addressed.  Furthermore, the points in many cases apply not only to Assassins but to all the Scout classes.  I think its rather obvious that SOE has swung the balance <STRONG>drastically</STRONG> in favor of Wizards/Locks/Necro's/Conjurers while forgetting about the melee classes.  As a whole Rogue/Predator AA's aren't very good.  Assassin AA's are even another level worse then those.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I still want an explanation of why Manburn has a 5 minute cool down.  How does an ability that has Wizards routinely hitting for 80k in one burst function every 5 minutes, when abilities like Decapitate are on a 15 minute timer?  I could see manaburn on 5 minutes if you didn't allow any castint for a duration there after (say 30 seconds).  But the mana lost when using Manburn becomes meaningless when you factor in the increases to their Power Regen abilities in that same line and maybe the presence of a Bard or Chanter in the group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The EOF AA's for Rogues/Predators are bad.  The EOF AA's for Assassins are a whole other level below bad.  Their just terrible.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Once again, I state that if given a choice every single Assassin (this has been asked and agreed too in the serverwide channel) would rather have 25 more points to put into the Predator tree then the Assassin tree.  Increasing base stats like Intel, Stamina and Wisdom are worth more then the meanginless nonesense given to us here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I mean come on people.  One of our AA's is <STRONG>Enchanced Sprint.  </STRONG>Sprint!  Thats not even on the hotbar of most players anymore.  Good God.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR><BR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Jayad]

<P>Hang on guys, I think I feel a need to go post in the bard forums about how great their AAs are.  Even though I don't understand the class, it shouldn't stop me right?</P> <P>Rian already said everything I could about the actual abilities.  The devil is in the details and all.</P>

[LoreLady]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Rian18 wrote:<div><strong></strong> <blockquote> <hr> LoreLady wrote:snip <hr> </blockquote>Wow.  Their have been some pretty ridiculous things written in these forums but that might take the cake.  If you do not play an Assassin then please refrain from making inane comments.<font color="#ff0000">No - my mains a ranger, however I have swapped several times and know the mechanics, stats, abilities, and workings of an assassin.. My guilds an open guild with our toons.</font></div> <div> </div> <div>Let me break down for you these "Sounds good to me" abilities you like, since you are probably a Necro or Wizard.</div> <div> </div> <div><strong>40s reduction in exacting</strong>- Is an ok ability it may allow it to be up twice on certain fights.  Key word <strong>May.  </strong>How poor are things when we are getting excited over an AA that may possibly allow us to use an ability a bit more on certain fights.  I mean could we add more stipulations?  Sadly, this is perhaps our best overall AA.  Not quite, Manaburn, Lifeburn, Double attack etc etc is it?<font color="#ff0000">The key point is using once per fight, rather than using once every other fight.. If you get the choice of using everyone of your abilitys everyfight, rather than using the same ability once every onceand awhile - wouldent you pick everyfight??</font></div> <div> </div> <div><strong>50% to trigger a poison - </strong>You win for twisting words.  Making it seem like its a permanent 50% increase to poisons.  So for a few seconds every 5 minutes we have twice the chance to proc effects.<font color="#ff0000">50% to proc caustic poison for 15 seconds on a 3 min recast is a 200 dps boost for those 15 seconds.. I</font></div> <div>Ok lets break this one down into detail shall we:</div> <div> </div> <div>Debuff poisons- Lasts over 1 minute already.   Without "increasing" the trigger chance their already proccing over themselves.  End result means the ability is Useless for these types of poisons.<font color="#ff0000">Rangers get the same line in poisons (or a very similar one), debuff poisons are a nice PVP thing - but raidwide no.. debuff poisons are things I dient add to my list.</font></div> <div> </div> <div>Dethreat poisons- Ok so for a few seconds I may proc a poison to lower my aggro.  Wonderful.  With our Hate transfer Assassins rarely have aggro problems as is, and I assure you that having a few extra seconds where it may proc once or twice more means nothing.  Nothing.<font color="#ff0000">Less agro = more dps.</font></div> <div> </div> <div>Hemotoxin-  [Removed for Content].  Great so I may proc a poison more which is a DOT effect.  Wonderful.  How about this, parses have shown that Frontload actually <strong>lessens</strong> the amount of damage that Hemotoxin poisons do while active.  How's that grab you.  You actually DO less dps with Frontload then you do without it.  Why? Hemotoxin is a DOT effect.  Since it does not <strong>stack</strong> and it already (sine to get this ridiculous AA you have to take the more ridiculous 5/5 Hemotoxin AA) lasts 19 seconds, this means you are actually Proccing the poison before it runs out!  The value of Hemo poisons is in getting near their full duration.  If you are proccing it before the poison runs its course it <strong>overwrites</strong> itself and you lose the remaining ticks.</div> <div>Ex: </div> <div> Hemo hits</div> <div>Tick 1 (dmg)</div> <div>Tick 2 (dmg)</div> <div>Hemo hits again (Tick 3/Tick 4 dmg LOST).  Great so I have an AA which actually lessens the damage that one of my poisons does.  Great call.  This point alone proves you do not play an Assassin or a scout of any class.</div> <div>The kicker is that parses have also shown that even with 5/5 Hemotoxin, Caustic poisons <strong>still </strong>win in total damage.  I'll refer you to this posts by Kingphillywilly and his screenshots.  You can see it here:  <a href="http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o109/kingphillywilly/hemo.jpg" target="_blank">http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o109/kingphillywilly/hemo.jpg</a> and here <a href="http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o109/kingphillywilly/causticcopy.jpg" target="_blank">http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o109/kingphillywilly/causticcopy.jpg</a>. <font color="#ff0000">Valid point.</font> </div> <div> </div> <div>Looks pretty close doesn't it?  Until you realize that  the Assassin using Caustic had an intel of only 96 and the one using Hemo (5/5) was at 360 Int!  So even with a discrep[ancy of 260+ intel in the favor of Hemo, Caustic still won.  Yes an amazing talent Frontload is.</div> <div> </div> <div><strong>An extra 5% to proc ur apply poison</strong> -  Great! So a poison which already overwrites itself (Apply poison is a Hemotoxin poison) can be increased to proc more.  See my point on hemotoxin above to see what a great ability this is.<font color="#ff0000">Point valid.</font></div> <div> </div> <div><strong>10s reuse reduction in your debuff - again increases everyones dps-  </strong>AWESOME! So you are reducing the duration of an ability that already last <strong>LONGER</strong> then the cool down.  Wonderful.  So now, the ability can stay on my hotbar not used for a slightly longer time while I wait for its effects to end in the first place. <font color="#ff0000">Id like a reduction on my debuff, it means on those AE fights on alot of mobs - I can debuff on every mob. Its still a nice to have.</font> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div><strong>20% increase to dmg with bleed/30% increase to dmg with impale- </strong>Wrong again.  Posts like this really bother me, because its obvious you are only trying to twist words to fit your logic.  If the increase was 20% and 30% as you claim <strong>no one</strong> would be complaining.  Its not.  Its an increase <strong>only</strong> to the <strong>DOT</strong> portion of the effect which is a <strong>minute</strong> portion of the damage.  Someone was nice enough to do the DPS calculation for us about how much damage this added.  I believe the exact amount was less then 10 total DPS.  SO for 20 points we can gain 10 DPS.  Wonderful.  What makes this even more ridiculous is this is considered our <strong>best</strong> AA line.<font color="#ff0000">Yes it is the dot portion - but most dots assassins get are 1/2 or over 1/2 of the dps, so its still a substancial change in that ability.</font></div> <div> </div> <div><strong>30% increase to dmg with impale- </strong>Great so an ability which is already gone within 1 or 2 seconds of being put up can proc more.  Hey, now just remove the cooldown and cast time completely and we may actually be able to spam the button fast enough on raids to make sure its always up.  Maybe.<font color="#ff0000">It does damage, thats all that matters..</font></div> <div> </div> <div><strong>20% increase to your AE - hidden assault- </strong>Twist, twist, twist.  Incorrect again.  The 20% increase is to the<strong> DOT</strong> damage not to the actuall <strong>Ability</strong>.  Do I need to explain this again?<font color="#ff0000">Not twisting, your dot dmg is over 1/2 on hidden assault -I believe its 700 for the first tick, and 200-300 for the rest for 10s every 2s.. thats still a large increase.</font></div> <div> </div> <div><strong>And not to mention having 0.25s recovery time over everyone else's 0.5s recovery time- </strong>This one takes the cake.  The recovery time decrease is so insignficant its impossible to explain.  We, can already chain our abilities fast enough.  The kicker is, that with ever usual zone lag .25s or .50s means nothing.  Its always about .50s regardless.  Also the amount of auto attack gained is nothing.  Even if zone lag were zero and you chained all your Ca's together rapid fire, your talking about gaining an extra <strong>1 or 2 seconds</strong> of auto attack time.  Thats it.  That for the <strong>Final </strong>ability in the line.<font color="#ff0000">Its still a change in DPS, if you have a 1.0, and lower the  total cast time to 0.75 (recovery time included) - dps from a 3,000 ability, is now 3750.. </font></div> <div> </div> <div>Its very obvious, that you do not play an Assassin.  In fact, with what you said about poisons i'd say you do not play a Swashie, Brigand or Ranger either.  If you do happen to play one, then your understanding of the class is obviously not up to par and flawed.  The points other Assassins have raised are valid points, and deserve to be addressed.  Furthermore, the points in many cases apply not only to Assassins but to all the Scout classes.  I think its rather obvious that SOE has swung the balance <strong>drastically</strong> in favor of Wizards/Locks/Necro's/Conjurers while forgetting about the melee classes.  As a whole Rogue/Predator AA's aren't very good.  Assassin AA's are even another level worse then those. <font color="#ff0000">Yes and No to the above statement, I have raided with friends assassins and held 1.7k dps zonewide in raids like (labs,dt,lyceum), and if you look at the necro's/conj's AA tree it is MUCH more focused on utility than DPS, yours is split 3 ways, dps, debuff, solo..  Wizards and warlocks, and rangers needed a boost during KoS and now they have it.. The fact of the matter is, assassins had the top damage for KoS - now things are being rounded out and equalized I am sorry if you feel discouraged on being beaten by wizards/warlocks/rangers now when your abilities and aa's are scaled with everyone else.</font> </div> <div> </div> <div>I still want an explanation of why Manburn has a 5 minute cool down.  How does an ability that has Wizards routinely hitting for 80k in one burst function every 5 minutes, when abilities like Decapitate are on a 15 minute timer?  I could see manaburn on 5 minutes if you didn't allow any castint for a duration there after (say 30 seconds).  But the mana lost when using Manburn becomes meaningless when you factor in the increases to their Power Regen abilities in that same line and maybe the presence of a Bard or Chanter in the group.<font color="#ff0000">Manaburn - burns all mana.. That wizards dps is gone for the rest of the fight, the damage/mana ratio is far better for say icecnova/fusion.</font></div> <div> </div> <div>The EOF AA's for Rogues/Predators are bad.  The EOF AA's for Assassins are a whole other level below bad.  Their just terrible.<font color="#ff0000">In that kinda statement "everyones" aa's are bad.. As my main (ranger) - I love my AA lines because it puts alot of ballance into the system to where we should be at instead of being the underdog... I was right when I made my statements of damage/cast timers - although I doubt lockeye would admit it <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font></div> <div> </div> <div>Once again, I state that if given a choice every single Assassin (this has been asked and agreed too in the serverwide channel) would rather have 25 more points to put into the Predator tree then the Assassin tree.  Increasing base stats like Intel, Stamina and Wisdom are worth more then the meanginless nonesense given to us here.<font color="#ff0000">Thats because that tree is in your favor, the KoS tree was almost entirely designed for assassins and left out rangers.. Poison only debuff, melee only hits, melee only AE factors,  you get the picture.. Theres a reason you can only get 50 aa's - and theres a reason that the ranger tree is diffrent from say the assassin tree or wizard tree.. Its all going into the weakpoints of the class, and frankly in KoS - assassins had little to none, and now your seeing otheres tree's advance because you cant be overballancing.</font></div> <div> </div> <div>I mean come on people.  One of our AA's is <strong>Enchanced Sprint.  </strong>Sprint!  Thats not even on the hotbar of most players anymore.  Good God.<font color="#ff0000">I get the same thing, with a quicker evac... It would actually be kinda nice in a PVP server..</font></div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote></div><p>Message Edited by LoreLady on <span class=date_text>12-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:40 AM</span>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>Armill wrote:<div></div> <div>Is "dps progess" supposed to mean that classes with more utility, more debuffs, should out dps us. Hell no it doesn't, thats just stupid, im fine with a wizard or warlock outdpsing me if they work for it. <b>In my personal opinon assassins should be the highest dps class in the game since we have to do the most work for are dps and we sacrifice any inkling of group utility and debuffs for this but when other classes that have those things can out dps than there is a huge huge problem</b>. The best way they can fix us is by getting rid of are PvP aa bullcrap and put some AA's in the game that are decent and going to actually help us out. Or maybe put in dozens of items with like Pierce IV or II or something which deals an additonal 20 piercing damage, cause god knows just about every piece of caster gear in EoF is getting that [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] bolt ability.</div><hr></blockquote>Perhaps you dont know the mechanics of say a wizard or warlock.. Or dont get the arguement of chain/vs alil extra group buffs (this one drags on and on).. Or perhaps you have never tried to look outside your own class.. I have raided with two diffrent level 70 assassin characters, a wizard, and my main - ranger (havent touched warlock though).. And for staying ontop of dps and not dieing, wizard is easilly the hardest one, I can do just as well as the player playing the assassin, but I cannot come close to the wizard.. I die to quick and when I hold back my dps is too low - its a very hard one to learn..If you think your positioning is hard?? Try playing ranger - we have to be 3-5m away from the mob - and this distance chances with each mob - as well as being behind the mob.. It takes an assassin half as much time to find there target then a ranger to find his...It also costs the ranger 100x money as any other class with the cost of arrows..  As for your last part at the bottom - get your poison augment to do more poison dmg per hit - as well as getting your + hit to your melee weapons.. I believe thers a +45 augment that does 45 more damage per melee attack.. I will admit my knowledge on augments is shakey, but look at the system as a whole before going on about it.</div>

[Armill]

Paaalease....the chain vs group buff arguement is moot because wizards/warlocks aren't gonna be hit anyways if there doing there job right and not trying to melee a mob. Hell, even have the time if a big AE goes off most melee classes are gonna be either dead or knocking at heavens door. And it is easy as pie for a wizard or warlock to watch agro, the only time there gonna be getting agro is when there being stupid and like hey....lets cast fusion and ice nova on a mob at the start of the fight. Give the tank enough time to establish agro and its not gonna be changing. And I call Bs on your ranger positioning that isn't hard at all, assassins have ranged positonal attacks as well. We also have to be 3-5m away from a mob and i know this isn't hard at all, you back up a few feet and bam look my ca's light up and are usuable now...nothing hard about that. Running around and trying to get to a mobs back is just as difficult if not more than running backwards and unleashing your bow.

[t0gar]

About your comment on repeated stabbing... it does nothing for our DPS. It is absolutely useless unless you want to spam CA's, which is a DPS no no. For more DPS you have to wait for your off-hand to hit before spamming the next combat art(proven in parses), and it's not ganna happen in .25 seconds. We're not mad that everyone has better AA's. We're mad that ours are next to useless. The increase to DoT dmg for bleeding line is a joke, we get an extra 20/30% of 10% of our abilities dmg... At the end of a raid this will add a whopping 10 DPS to our raid-wide.(haven't tried it may be exaggerated) We have 0 trouble keeping aggro off of us, I dont even need to use deaggro poison and i can go all out. Usually dont even need to hit a single deaggro spell either... You're a ranger, keep your comments out of our AA's. I don't care if the guild assassin lets you raid him sometimes, you clearly dont know enough about our class. These AA's are all PvP oriented. The only noticable effect the extra DoT dmg will have is against short fights, which are usually player fights. The soloing line works for soloing or PvP. The hemotoxin has no benefit to raids so it's clearly for PvP. Getaway is definately no use for anything but PvP. Frontload has PvP written all over it, extra procs for the small amount of time that you'll be fighting someone then go back into hiding. Repeated Stabbing, once again it's only use is spamming CA's, and the only point to that is if you're trying to kill someone fast. Less of a defensive stance penelty, I don't even need to comment there. Increase chance to proc Mark line, as stated already it procs in the instant it's casted on raids. Increase to stifle and root effects that dont work on epics... you'll never guess what that's meant to benefit! The fact is the entire tree benefits PvP more than anything else. I honestly can't see anything that has more raid benefit than PvP benefit. Assassins do play PvE Sony... wake up! <div></div>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>Armill wrote:<div></div>Paaalease....the chain vs group buff arguement is moot because wizards/warlocks aren't gonna be hit anyways if there doing there job right and not trying to melee a mob. Hell, even have the time if a big AE goes off most melee classes are gonna be either dead or knocking at heavens door<b>. And it is easy as pie for a wizard or warlock to watch agro,</b> the only time there gonna be getting agro is when there being stupid and like hey....lets cast fusion and ice nova on a mob at the start of the fight. Give the tank enough time to establish agro and its not gonna be changing. And I call Bs on your ranger positioning that isn't hard at all, assassins have ranged positonal attacks as well.<b> We also have to be 3-5m away </b>from a mob and i know this isn't hard at all, you back up a few feet and bam look my ca's light up and are usuable now...nothing hard about that. Running around and trying to get to a mobs back is just as difficult if not more <b>than running backwards and unleashing your bow.</b><hr></blockquote>In raids - its not easy for a wizard to hold 1.8k dps without taking agro - even with an optimal setup..Uhh - no ya dont - your melee recasts keep ya going without the need for ranged..Uhh - I cant shoot while moving.. Yes I can use culling of the weak (1 min recast - must be behind mob) - and selection (must be stealthed) while moving - but thats it..Please dont make false statements.</div>

[Armill]

That wizzy statement is obviously either bs or you raid with crappy wizards, I can see wizzies push more than 2k often. And you must not be a very at playing an assassin either, cause I know, i will go threw my bow attacks more than a couple times in a raid fight (depending on the mob, some mobs just die like they were a cheese cake thats delciously eaten for christmas, than you've got your raid mobs who are like fruit cake and take forever to eat through.) Please don't talk about assassins if you don't know how to play one.

[Rian18]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LoreLady wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Armill wrote:<BR> Paaalease....the chain vs group buff arguement is moot because wizards/warlocks aren't gonna be hit anyways if there doing there job right and not trying to melee a mob. Hell, even have the time if a big AE goes off most melee classes are gonna be either dead or knocking at heavens door<B>. And it is easy as pie for a wizard or warlock to watch agro,</B> the only time there gonna be getting agro is when there being stupid and like hey....lets cast fusion and ice nova on a mob at the start of the fight. Give the tank enough time to establish agro and its not gonna be changing. And I call Bs on your ranger positioning that isn't hard at all, assassins have ranged positonal attacks as well.<B> We also have to be 3-5m away </B>from a mob and i know this isn't hard at all, you back up a few feet and bam look my ca's light up and are usuable now...nothing hard about that. Running around and trying to get to a mobs back is just as difficult if not more <B>than running backwards and unleashing your bow.</B><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>In raids - its not easy for a wizard to hold 1.8k dps without taking agro - even with an optimal setup..<BR><BR>Uhh - no ya dont - your melee recasts keep ya going without the need for ranged..<BR><BR>Uhh - I cant shoot while moving.. Yes I can use culling of the weak (1 min recast - must be behind mob) - and selection (must be stealthed) while moving - but thats it..<BR><BR>Please dont make false statements.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Lorelady, stay out of our this discussion because you obviously have no clue what you are talking about.  I do not care they let you "raid' with the Assassin from time to time.  Let me give you some background on myself, and why I know you have no clue what you are talking about.  I've actually played a Ranger to 50, back when the game was brand new.  In fact, I refer you to this thread I wrote a long time ago <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=39&message.id=7881" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=39&message.id=7881</A>.  Its a guide on how to kite.  It was written when I was in my high 30's as a Ranger on Antonia Bayle.  I played that Ranger to 50 until every noob on the planet became a Ranger post September 2005 when they did away with Kiting and introduced Stream of Arrows and AFK Ranger DPS.<BR><BR>At that point I leveled a Warlock to 60, got bored of him too and moved to Lucan D' Lere and rolled up my Assassin.  I still occasionaly break out my Warlock from time to time and my Ranger.  I could parse pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] high with my Ranger.  In fact Rangers were the hidden secret of KOS.  In a good players hands a Ranger was every bit the DPS an Assassin was.  You just have to do the little things to get there.  You need to move and use your Backstabs and melee attacks, learn to time things after an auto attack etc etc.  Small differences that skilled players pulled out that allowed them to be clear TIer 1 DPS.  </P> <P>The problem was, the hordes of noobs playing Rangers who wanted to do nothing more then sit at bow range shooting CA"s off and using auto attack and wanting to maintain top tier DPS.  Yet, the Ranger forums have always had more then their share of whining and cryng and as such the horde of noobs complained to the point that Rangers got nice boosts to their DPS when it was really not needed.  Any good player could still put out top notch damage, the nerfs just effected the ability of the poor player to put out top notch damage.  Now, your damage is improving again to the point where any Ranger can begin to beat Assassins without having to do all the things their class is suppose to do to maximize their damage.  That is inherently <STRONG>wrong.</STRONG></P> <P>Assassins have to work for their DPS.  Much moreso then I ever did as a Ranger.  As an Assassin it requires careful planning ahead, to maximize the true effectiveness of all our abilities.  We can't just spam Arts.  That costs us DPS.  We have to be in melee range and thus at risk more then Rangers who get to sit back.</P> <P>You don't think it makes a difference? Well it does.  We accidently pull aggro (admitedly not something that happens often) and we get hit.  As a Ranger you pull aggro and you have that window of 1 or 2 seconds to evade/surveil to get it off you w/o getting hit.  As a Ranger its <STRONG>much</STRONG> easier to stay behind a target.  You can Strafe in a circle always having a clear view.  As an Assassin and especially on raids our view is normally obscured by a dozen other people trying to do the same thing we are.  Take into account lag, and very often it takes a second or two to realize your now at the side of the mob instead of behind it.  As a Ranger I never had that problem.</P> <P>So please, spare us your thoughts and meaningless drivel on what you think we need or don't need, because you have limited or zero experience in playing our class outside of an "occasiaonal" raid here or there.  I on the other hand have years of experience playing a Ranger so yes, I know<STRONG> what i'm talking about.</STRONG></P>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>t0gar wrote:About your comment on repeated stabbing... it does nothing for our DPS. It is absolutely useless unless you want to spam CA's, which is a DPS no no. For more DPS you have to wait for your off-hand to hit before spamming the next combat art(proven in parses), and it's not ganna happen in .25 seconds. We're not mad that everyone has better AA's. We're mad that ours are next to useless. The increase to DoT dmg for bleeding line is a joke, we get an extra 20/30% of 10% of our abilities dmg... At the end of a raid this will add a whopping 10 DPS to our raid-wide.(haven't tried it may be exaggerated) We have 0 trouble keeping aggro off of us, I dont even need to use deaggro poison and i can go all out. Usually dont even need to hit a single deaggro spell either... You're a ranger, keep your comments out of our AA's. I don't care if the guild assassin lets you raid him sometimes, you clearly dont know enough about our class. These AA's are all PvP oriented. The only noticable effect the extra DoT dmg will have is against short fights, which are usually player fights. The soloing line works for soloing or PvP. The hemotoxin has no benefit to raids so it's clearly for PvP. Getaway is definately no use for anything but PvP. Frontload has PvP written all over it, extra procs for the small amount of time that you'll be fighting someone then go back into hiding. Repeated Stabbing, once again it's only use is spamming CA's, and the only point to that is if you're trying to kill someone fast. Less of a defensive stance penelty, I don't even need to comment there. Increase chance to proc Mark line, as stated already it procs in the instant it's casted on raids. Increase to stifle and root effects that dont work on epics... you'll never guess what that's meant to benefit! The fact is the entire tree benefits PvP more than anything else. I honestly can't see anything that has more raid benefit than PvP benefit. Assassins do play PvE Sony... wake up! <div></div><hr></blockquote>All I am saying is that things are fine, that its still a boost - just a minor boost to put you and other classes at the same spot. The abilities you have makeup for weakpoints in the assassin structure.. While the class IS strong as a whole theres not alot AA's can do to makeup for.. The AA's you get  are nice AA's - but they arent going to be anything spectacular.. Whats the point of being t0 dps where you arent getting a challenge by any other class? </div>

[Jayad]

<DIV>I played and raided a Ranger until 6 weeks before EOF.  Now I've played an assassin raiding daily since then.  I switched because my new guild was full of Rangers, and I wanted a change of pace.  So I actually have played both to a decent extent in raids.  The idea that Rangers are harder is total BS.  They are way, WAY easier than assassins to position, especially when there are many mobs you have to go through.   Jousting IN to do damage is nothing like being in AOE range and having to joust out to avoid it.   Rangers do have positional requirements but they are almost totally negated by a good tank.  With an assassin you have to position exactly behind mobs which is a lot more work - and you are close.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please stop acting like playing an assassin for a few raids will teach you a high degree of expertise.  It took me a month of solid raiding (every day) before I felt I had a good grasp of the class from strengths to weaknesses.  And I'm still learning, even after more than 2 months of it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your comments show a total lack of understanding of exactly what is important.  You're also confusing the idea that something is better means it's OK.  No, it just means it *improves* something.  You take almost no consideration of the *degree* of improvement, or how it is relative to other classes, AAs, and skills.  I guess by your logic having 4 trees which each add 1 damage every 10 minutes would be awesome.</DIV>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>Rian18 wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> LoreLady wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> Armill wrote: <div></div>Paaalease....the chain vs group buff arguement is moot because wizards/warlocks aren't gonna be hit anyways if there doing there job right and not trying to melee a mob. Hell, even have the time if a big AE goes off most melee classes are gonna be either dead or knocking at heavens door<b>. And it is easy as pie for a wizard or warlock to watch agro,</b> the only time there gonna be getting agro is when there being stupid and like hey....lets cast fusion and ice nova on a mob at the start of the fight. Give the tank enough time to establish agro and its not gonna be changing. And I call Bs on your ranger positioning that isn't hard at all, assassins have ranged positonal attacks as well.<b> We also have to be 3-5m away </b>from a mob and i know this isn't hard at all, you back up a few feet and bam look my ca's light up and are usuable now...nothing hard about that. Running around and trying to get to a mobs back is just as difficult if not more <b>than running backwards and unleashing your bow.</b> <hr> </blockquote>In raids - its not easy for a wizard to hold 1.8k dps without taking agro - even with an optimal setup..Uhh - no ya dont - your melee recasts keep ya going without the need for ranged..Uhh - I cant shoot while moving.. Yes I can use culling of the weak (1 min recast - must be behind mob) - and selection (must be stealthed) while moving - but thats it..Please dont make false statements.</div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Lorelady, stay out of our this discussion because you obviously have no clue what you are talking about.  I do not care they let you "raid' with the Assassin from time to time.  Let me give you some background on myself, and why I know you have no clue what you are talking about.  I've actually played a Ranger to 50, back when the game was brand new.  In fact, I refer you to this thread I wrote a long time ago <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=39&message.id=7881" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=39&message.id=7881</a>.  Its a guide on how to kite.  It was written when I was in my high 30's as a Ranger on Antonia Bayle.  I played that Ranger to 50 until every noob on the planet became a Ranger post September 2005 when they did away with Kiting and introduced Stream of Arrows and AFK Ranger DPS.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">A year or so back, we lost our ability to shoot while on the move (say auto attack, culling of the weak, and selection).. We cannot shoot while on the move in any other ability.</font></p><p>At that point I leveled a Warlock to 60, got bored of him too and moved to Lucan D' Lere and rolled up my Assassin.  I still occasionaly break out my Warlock from time to time and my Ranger.  I could parse pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] high with my Ranger.  In fact Rangers were the hidden secret of KOS.  In a good players hands a Ranger was every bit the DPS an Assassin was.  You just have to do the little things to get there.  You need to move and use your Backstabs and melee attacks, learn to time things after an auto attack etc etc.  Small differences that skilled players pulled out that allowed them to be clear TIer 1 DPS. </p><font color="#ff0000">The damage diffrence between ranger and assassin dident show untill you started raiding in KoS - where the "damages" were similar, but the "cast times" were not. I wrote up a thing about it awhile ago  shown here <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=39&message.id=34568" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=39&message.id=34568 </a>A second person confirmed my findings - but did add mark.</font><p></p><p> </p> <p>The problem was, the hordes of noobs playing Rangers who wanted to do nothing more then sit at bow range shooting CA"s off and using auto attack and wanting to maintain top tier DPS.  Yet, the Ranger forums have always had more then their share of whining and cryng and as such the horde of noobs complained to the point that Rangers got nice boosts to their DPS when it was really not needed.  Any good player could still put out top notch damage, the nerfs just effected the ability of the poor player to put out top notch damage.  Now, your damage is improving again to the point where any Ranger can begin to beat Assassins without having to do all the things their class is suppose to do to maximize their damage.  That is inherently <strong>wrong.<font color="#ff0000">Now the class is improved, with the problem is currently - we need t8 ammo to keep up, and the bows that allow you to summon this ammo are the rarest things around to the fabled duel wield. While there were many rangers who did not know how to play there class, there were many who did. And found while when they started raiding they were high, they did not progress. Your arguement is true, to many players but not true to the other half of the players who found that rangers were 20-30% lower in dps than a equal geared assassin..</font></strong></p> <p>Assassins have to work for their DPS.  Much moreso then I ever did as a Ranger.  As an Assassin it requires careful planning ahead, to maximize the true effectiveness of all our abilities.  We can't just spam Arts.  That costs us DPS.  We have to be in melee range and thus at risk more then Rangers who get to sit back.<font color="#ff0000">Every class requires requires carefull planning ahead, no class cna just spam combat arts.. Wizards have to cast a certain way to maximize dps, rangers, assassins,rouges,warlocks etc..</font></p> <p>You don't think it makes a difference? Well it does.  We accidently pull aggro (admitedly not something that happens often) and we get hit.  As a Ranger you pull aggro and you have that window of 1 or 2 seconds to evade/surveil to get it off you w/o getting hit.  As a Ranger its <strong>much</strong> easier to stay behind a target.  You can Strafe in a circle always having a clear view.  As an Assassin and especially on raids our view is normally obscured by a dozen other people trying to do the same thing we are.  Take into account lag, and very often it takes a second or two to realize your now at the side of the mob instead of behind it.  As a Ranger I never had that problem.<font color="#ff0000">While we do have a higher agro reduction (41 to your 31) - we do not have the utility involved, this is the basis on the agro diffrence.</font></p> <p>So please, spare us your thoughts and meaningless drivel on what you think we need or don't need, because you have limited or zero experience in playing our class outside of an "occasiaonal" raid here or there.  I on the other hand have years of experience playing a Ranger so yes, I know<strong> what i'm talking about.<font color="#ff0000">As in my previous post said my reasons for posting were to try and cut people out of the doom and gloom..  There is zero reason to go on and start whining about the lack of aa's or usefullness when you look at what you already have.</font></strong></p><hr></blockquote><font color="#ff0000">While I am weak in my english and format of my posts, I am not someone who casually goes and makes assumptions about things.. There are exceptions mind you, but I have backed myself up time and time again in proof, did diffrent charts on where rangers are to assassins in all terms.. And predicting where a 100 aa'd ranger with a 100 aa'd assassin is going to be very close simply because I have done the reasurch before hand, its not hard to figure out that assassins dominated KoS in terms of DPS (I have no problem with that, everyone gets there round)..     I do have a problem with biting the hand that feeds you its not only assassins I am trying to set a diffrent mindset on, its rangers as well.. Hence the first day back from my 4 month break I put up "why all the doom and gloom" - and shot down everyone and every post complaining about augments, or dietys.. There are valid problems within the ranger and assassin class's, and those valid problems are worth discussion, however crying after recieving a piece of chocolate is something I have a problem with and I will set anyone straight with this mindset.</font></div>

[LoreLady]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Xney wrote:<div></div> <div>I played and raided a Ranger until 6 weeks before EOF.  Now I've played an assassin raiding daily since then.  I switched because my new guild was full of Rangers, and I wanted a change of pace.  So I actually have played both to a decent extent in raids.  The idea that Rangers are harder is total BS.  They are way, WAY easier than assassins to position, especially when there are many mobs you have to go through.   Jousting IN to do damage is nothing like being in AOE range and having to joust out to avoid it.   Rangers do have positional requirements but they are almost totally negated by a good tank.  With an assassin you have to position exactly behind mobs which is a lot more work - and you are close.</div> <div> </div> <div>Please stop acting like playing an assassin for a few raids will teach you a high degree of expertise.  It took me a month of solid raiding (every day) before I felt I had a good grasp of the class from strengths to weaknesses.  And I'm still learning, even after more than 2 months of it.</div> <div> </div> <div>Your comments show a total lack of understanding of exactly what is important.  You're also confusing the idea that something is better means it's OK.  No, it just means it *improves* something.  You take almost no consideration of the *degree* of improvement, or how it is relative to other classes, AAs, and skills.  I guess by your logic having 4 trees which each add 1 damage every 10 minutes would be awesome.<font color="#ff0000">By my logic - if one class is averaging 1.8k with the best gear, and another class is averaging 1.5k with the best gear.. Both classes are going to be boosted to 2k at the top end with a new expansion.. How are you going to set the new system that it does exactly that?? If you look at wizards/warlocks/rangers - this is exactly whats happening..Again, all im saying be happy with what you have got... Its part of class ballance.</font></div><hr></blockquote></div><p>Message Edited by LoreLady on <span class=date_text>12-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:46 PM</span>

[Jayad]

<DIV>Have you even raided since EOF much?  Have you raided with Wizards, Warlocks, and Rangers with a lot of AAs and good gear?  Have you <STRONG>played </STRONG>an assassin in all of those raids?  No?  Then maybe you should stop talking out of your butt.</DIV>

[Armill]

Lore...you don't know what your talking about. And on another note hell yeah id be down for an ability that inflicts one points of damage on a ten minute timer cause it would be ubers cause ya know...its class balance, ya know, let the wizards/warlocks have lots of good aa's, just give assassins some aa's that inflict crap for damage and dont' do anything for an assassin who doesn't solo or PvP. Not that im saying soloing and pvp are bad, im just saying that not what are class is about, and they need to fix it to focus more on true role in a group situations, dps.

[Rian18]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LoreLady wrote:<FONT color=#ff0000>While I am weak in my english and format of my posts, I am not someone who casually goes and makes assumptions about things.. There are exceptions mind you, but I have backed myself up time and time again in proof, did diffrent charts on where rangers are to assassins in all terms.. And predicting where a 100 aa'd ranger with a 100 aa'd assassin is going to be very close simply because I have done the reasurch before hand, its not hard to figure out that assassins dominated KoS in terms of DPS (I have no problem with that, everyone gets there round)..<BR>    <BR>I do have a problem with biting the hand that feeds you its not only assassins I am trying to set a diffrent mindset on, its rangers as well.. Hence the first day back from my 4 month break I put up "why all the doom and gloom" - and shot down everyone and every post complaining about augments, or dietys.. There are valid problems within the ranger and assassin class's, and those valid problems are worth discussion, however crying after recieving a piece of chocolate is something I have a problem with and I will set anyone straight with this mindset.</FONT><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Your posts aren't weak in english or format.  They are weak in terms of facts or substance.  Your own posts prove you as someone who <STRONG>is</STRONG> casually making assumptions about things.  You claim you have backed yourself up time and time again?  Well please show us all where that is.  It certainly isn't in the drivel you have posted on these forums. </P> <P>Your "class charts" for Assassins to Rangers are obviously flawed as is most of your logic.  We don't want a different mindset.  We want change.  We want to be treated the same as other classes.  You are a ranger you got Increases to Caustic Poison, Increases to main Combat Arts like Triple/Double etc. </P> <P>We're not crying after recieving a piece of chocalate, we're upset that the overfed kids next to us got a basket  of chocalate while we got to lick the spoon.</P> <P>Now, please go stay in the Ranger forums neither your  clearly biased opinion nor your "expertise" is wanted here.  When you level an Assassin and play one full time like I and many others here have played a Ranger full time, you may have a leg to stand on.  Its pretty obvious you are talking just for the sake of hearing yourself talk.</P> <P>You prove how ignorant you are of Assasins when you said Less aggro= More DPS!   We already maximize our DPS with zero aggro problems.  We cannot physicall do more DPS.  Thats the entire problem.   Helping our aggro will not help our DPS, many Assassins cannot squeeze any more dps out then they are already doing.  I mean, you can take away evade and deaggro poisons and most Assassins wouldn't even notice.  <STRONG>So Less Aggro does not = More DPS.</STRONG></P><STRONG></STRONG></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE><STRONG> <P><BR></P></STRONG><BR> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Rian18 on <SPAN class=date_text>12-17-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>03:29 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Rian18 on <span class=date_text>12-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:29 PM</span>

[Rian18]

<FONT color=#ffffff></FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LoreLady wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>A year or so back, we lost our ability to shoot while on the move (say auto attack, culling of the weak, and selection).. We cannot shoot while on the move in any other ability.</FONT><BR></P> <P>I know that.  I wrote the guide.  That means I was playing a Ranger at the time kiting was viable.  I was also playing after the nerf to movement while casting CA's and through the "Super Ranger" increase to DPS.</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><STRONG>.<FONT color=#ff0000>Now the class is improved, with the problem is currently - we need t8 ammo to keep up, and the bows that allow you to summon this ammo are the rarest things around to the fabled duel wield. While there were many rangers who did not know how to play there class, there were many who did. And found while when they started raiding they were high, they did not progress. Your arguement is true, to many players but not true to the other half of the players who found that rangers were 20-30% lower in dps than a equal geared assassin. </FONT></STRONG></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000><FONT color=#ffffff>Wait a second, are you saying that because all Ranger's couldn't match Assassins you need a boost to DPS?  Thats a ridiculous concept.  The point is if half the Rangers could match Assassins then obviously it was possible to have equal DPS.  The other half that didn't were quite obviously not as skilled at their class or didn't do the little things necessary to beable to match Assassins. <BR><BR>This is the same way i'm sure many Assassins didn't match the top Rangers.  You don't buff a class because half of them can't match all of their peers.  You buff them when the top tier players can't match any of their peers.  This wasn't the case.  You all just cried long enough to get a big boost that wasn't needed.</FONT></FONT></P><FONT color=#ff0000><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT> <P><BR><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>in my previous post said my reasons for posting were to try and cut people out of the doom and gloom..  There is zero reason to go on and start whining about the lack of aa's or usefullness when you look at what you already have.</FONT></STRONG></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000><FONT color=#ffffff>Are you so dense that you still aren't understanding what myself and several others have told you?  We are complaining because we have looked at what we have and its meaningless increases.  Having to spend 20+ points in the bleed line for a 10 or 20 total DPS increase is ridiculous.  Having to spend 20 points in the poison line to get an ability which makes one of the prior abilities (hemotoxin) less effective and only increases our dps by about 60-80 (Not 200 as you claim) and does so for only 15 seconds is awful.  Hold on, let us all be excited about an ability that raises our dps by 60 for 15 seconds.  Wow. </FONT></FONT><BR></P></FONT> <HR> <P> </P> <P>You keep speaking about all these facts, you have all graphs and pie charts and whatever.  Yet, you are showing no proof or facts to back up your claim.  We are giving you hard numbers.  Facts.  Parses.  Everything to tell you your wrong, yet you refuse to listen.  Obviously you have little grasp on the subject or are just extremely baised due to playing a Ranger.   Stop talking about all this evidence you have about how good these Assassin AA's are and prove it to us.  We're all waiting.  We've parsed and tested them and are in 100% aggrement that they are extremely lackluster.  The most ardent supporter of the EOF AA's will say they are subpar. </P> <P>Sorry, your opinion means very little here.  Either back up some of your facts with actaul numbers or stop talking about them.  </P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><p>Message Edited by Rian18 on <span class=date_text>12-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:26 PM</span>

[Outerspace]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><hr>LoreLady wrote:<div><blockquote><hr><div><strong>50% to trigger a poison - </strong><font color="#ff0000"> 50% to proc caustic poison for 15 seconds on a 3 min recast is a 200 dps boost for those 15 seconds..</font></div></blockquote> <blockquote> <div><strong>10s reuse reduction in your debuff - again increases everyones dps-  </strong> <font color="#ff0000">Id like a reduction on my debuff, it means on those AE fights on alot of mobs - I can debuff on every mob. Its still a nice to have. <font color="#ff9900">If you did that you'd lose so much DPS you'd be owned by the troubador.</font> </font> </div> <div> </div> <div><strong>20% increase to dmg with bleed/30% increase to dmg with impale- </strong><font color="#ff0000"> Yes it is the dot portion - but most dots assassins get are 1/2 or over 1/2 of the dps, so its still a substancial change in that ability.</font></div> <div> </div> <div><strong>30% increase to dmg with impale- </strong><font color="#ff0000"> It does damage, thats all that matters..</font></div> <div> </div> <div><strong>20% increase to your AE - hidden assault- </strong> <font color="#ff0000">Not twisting, your dot dmg is over 1/2 on hidden assault -I believe its 700 for the first tick, and 200-300 for the rest for 10s every 2s.. thats still a large increase. <font color="#ff9933">Right. Lets look at the actual names and numbers instead of some you just made up. The following are on my toon, right now, with 481 Strength, totally unbuffed. <b>Cloaked Assault (Master 1): 12s duration, 30s recast</b> Before: 671-1119 + 204 melee damage up front, and 204 every 2 seconds for 12 seconds without any points in the ability. 2099-2547 damage overall. </font><font color="#ff9933"> </font><font color="#ff9933"> </font><font color="#ff9933">Enhance: Cloaked Assault (5): 671-1119 + 204 melee damage up front, and 254 every 2 seconds for 12 seconds. 2399-2847 damage overall. 6 ticks with an extra 50 damage gives us a massive 300 extra damage in 12 seconds. BUT: This ability has a 30 second recast. Therefore the actual damage increase is 300 extra damage in 30 seconds! Thie equates to just <u>10 extra DPS per target</u>. <b>Deadly Wound (Master 1): 24s duration, 20s recast</b> Before: 331-552 + 90-151 melee damage up front, and 90-151 every 4 seconds for 24 seconds. 961-1609 damage overall. Enhance: Deadly Wound (5): 331-552 + 90-151 melee damage up front, and 117-196 every 4 seconds for 24 seconds. 1123-1879 damage overall. So we have 162-270 extra damage in 24 seconds.  <u>6.75-11.25 DPS increase</u>. <b>Flowing Wound (Master 1): 24s duration, 30s recast</b> Before: 74-123 + 111-186 melee damage up front, and 111-186 every 4 seconds for 24 seconds with final tick of 520-866 melee damage. 1371-2291 damage overall. Enhance: Flowing Wound (5): 71-123 + 111-186 melee damage up front, and 134-223 every 4 seconds for 24 seconds, with final tick of 520-866 melee damage. 1506-2513 damage overall. We have 135-222 extra damage in 30 seconds which is <u>4.5-7.4 DPS increase</u>. <b>Scraping Blow (Adept III): 12s duration, 10s recast</b> Before: 291-485 up front melee damage, and 58 every 4 seconds for 12 seconds. 465-659 damage overall. Enhance: Scraping Blow (5): 291-485 up front melee damage, and 78 every 4 seconds for 12 seconds. 525-719 damage overall. We have 60 damage increase every 12 seconds, which is a <u>5 DPS increase</u> overall. Total DPS increase from fully specced Bleeding line on a single target in a fight lasting 30 seconds: 10 + 11.25 + 7.4 + 5 = 33.65 DPS </font></font></div> <div> </div> <div>The EOF AA's for Rogues/Predators are bad.  The EOF AA's for Assassins are a whole other level below bad.  Their just terrible.<font color="#ff0000">In that kinda statement "everyones" aa's are bad.. <b>As my main (ranger) - I love my AA lines</b> because it puts ranger DPS closer to and in some cases above Assassin DPS. <font color="#ff9900">We would love our AA lines if we got an improvement on the poison we actually use, or if we received a 10% passive double attack, or more than a 33.65 DPS increase from spending 23 AA points in the Bleeding line. <b>Lets look at the 10% damage increase to Caustic poison.</b> My average caustic proc on my raid tonight was 998 from 220 procs, so consequently with the extra 10% it would have been 1098. On average with 5 procs per minute, an extra 500 damage. 8.31 DPS increase if you look at it like that. </font></font><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ff9900">Looking at my zone parse I did 219.7k total damage with caustic poison which equated to 76 DPS overall. With an extra 10%, I would have done 241.67k of poison damage, or 84.2 DPS. An increase of 8.2 DPS on the zone parse which works out about right.</font></font> <font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ff9900"> However it tells a false story because I have parses right here where I have had more than 5 caustic procs inside a 15 second trash mob fight. If I get that situation, I get at least an extra 33 DPS from having an extra 10% on my caustic poison. This one AA can potentially be better than our entire Bleeding line (but in most cases wont be). Admittedly looking at it like this it's not quite as imbalanced as I thought it was, although I do still believe they should have given assassins this option too.Enhance: Hemotoxin makes my DPS go down if I use it. <b>Lets look at the passive 10% double attack.</b> Yes it's an end ability so it should be cool. However lets consider the situation of a raid buffed ranger with an Ancestral Sarnak War Bow hitting about 4.5k on auto attack against a fully debuffed mob. He procs 1 double attack in a minute and gains 4.5k extra damage. This works out at <u>75 extra DPS per double attack if the ranger only gets one double attack in a minute.</u> Lets say he gets an 8.5k crit on his double attack. Extra 141.6 DPS from that.But many fights are over in 30 seconds or less. If the ranger procs one 4.5k double attack in 30 seconds, he gains 150 DPS. if he procs an 8.5k crit, he gains 283 DPS. This is insanely better than any of the assassin end-of-tree abilities and indeed all of the full lines put together. </font></font></div> <div> </div> <div>Once again, I state that if given a choice every single Assassin (this has been asked and agreed too in the serverwide channel) would rather have 25 more points to put into the Predator tree then the Assassin tree.  Increasing base stats like Intel, Stamina and Wisdom are worth more then the meanginless nonesense given to us here.<font color="#ff0000">Thats because that tree is in your favor, the KoS tree was almost entirely designed for assassins and left out rangers.. Poison only debuff, melee only hits, melee only AE factors,  you get the picture.. Theres a reason you can only get 50 aa's - and theres a reason that the ranger tree is diffrent from say the assassin tree or wizard tree.. Its all going into the weakpoints of the class, and frankly in KoS - assassins had little to none, and now your seeing otheres tree's advance because you cant be overballancing. <font color="#ff9900">I totally disagree with that. For a kickoff poisons are as important to a ranger as they are to an assassin if not moreso, hence the INT tree. Talking to a guildie ranger at the moment he claims poisons account for around 12-15% of his overall damage. Personally I find poison accounting for around 5-8% of my overall damage on a zone parse. Secondly there were two obvious PvE trees for both assassin (STR) and ranger (AGI). The other two are crap and nobody chose them so whether they are melee based or not, it doesnt matter.</font></font></div> <div> </div> <div>I mean come on people.  One of our AA's is <strong>Enchanced Sprint.  </strong>Sprint!  Thats not even on the hotbar of most players anymore.  Good God.<font color="#ff0000">I get the same thing, with a quicker evac... It would actually be kinda nice in a PVP server..</font></div> <div>  <font color="#ff9900">You could say that about a lot of the Assassin AA's.</font> </div> </blockquote> </div><div></div><p>Message Edited by Outerspace on <span class=date_text>12-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:53 PM</span>

[Mr. Dawki]

<P>/punches anyone in the head who uses DARK RED LETTERS ON A BLACK BACKROUND</P> <P>i swear that is the most annoying thing about forums are people who think dark red on black makes it easy to read</P> <P>please throw yourself into the next moving vehicle you see</P>

[Outerspace]

<font color="#ff0000">Wasn't me </font><font color="#ff0000"><span>:smileyhappy:</span></font><div></div>

[Mr. Dawki]

( Incomprehensible swearing )!!!!!!!

[Salat]

<P>Since you punching people in the head, could you add anyone else that spews forth, but it's for pvp. </P> <P>Maybe they missed the post back when they added pvp, that nothing would ever be added or changed on pve servers in light of pvp.  Hence why they have a slightly different ruleset on the pvp servers.</P> <P>As far as the ranger/assassin stuff, I could care less about rangers parsing same as me.  They issue I have is when other classes like Necromancers who get pets, heals, power syphoning abils, and rez as utility stuff, also get lifeburn.  Next raid, have them cast Bolster on the necro before he fires it off.  Have them put HoT on him, and direct heals from his group healer.  Ours did 70K damage, with a reuse timer of 5 mins.  And within seconds, he was back up to full life.  The poor powerburn mages, can do decent damage, but then cant even cast anything, since getting power back in a fight takes way longer, then being healed.  God, I wish my decap did 70K damage with a 5 min itmer.  But no, we get 20+K damage on a 10 minute timer with KoS AA line full. </P> <P>As I said, I could care less if I was jockeying for top parse with mages/warlocks and rangers/assassins.  But when i se other classes that offer way more utlity, that already have a secured spot in raids jumping up to the top, somethings wrong.  Yea, they said, those classes if speced AA right for damage they might be able to go up a Teir on the DPS chart.  But against any of the T1 DPS, speced for damage also, they shouldnt be that close.</P> <P>As far as Assassin AAs go for EoF, they suck and keep getting worse.  Exacting, is really the only nice improvement.  Yet, <<knocks on wood>> I have a feeling it was an oversight, and wasnt suppossed to lower the reuse timer after they changed all the rest from how they were on Beta.  I think they meant to change it to extends the duration by a few seconds.  When they had our new AAs at lower recast timers instead of extend damage, the AAs were actually worth something.</P>