Caustic vs Hemotoxin

[CycoZ]

<DIV>Anyone with 5 AA's in Enhance Hemotoxin parsed this against caustic in groups and raids?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Does the 10 sec reduction in the DOT make hemo better than caustic?</DIV>

[Nathdorl]

why would you want to use this? the 'slot' for the red poison is always in use by mental breach anywayz

[K'aldar]

<div><blockquote><hr>Nathdorl wrote:why would you want to use this? the 'slot' for the red poison is always in use by mental breach anywayz<hr></blockquote>lol [Removed for Content] would you use mental breach all the time? i rarely ever use it, only on the fights i know will take over 5min.  cuts your dps down a ton.to the OP, i haven't done any special testing but from the parses it looks like hemotoxin with that aa comes out about even with caustic, sometimes more depending how long it ticks for... and definitely more than caustic on ae fights where you get it to proc on more than one mob.</div>

[t0gar]

<div></div>i do hope you're being sarcastic Nath... hemotoxin should be equal in damage to caustic with the AA's, so unless you feel like spending 5 AA to let you switch poisons... there's a chance it can do less depending on how unlucky you get.(if all the hemo's proc back to back you're doing crap dmg [assuming this is possible with new system]) And if the your hemo just procced before a mobs death it wont do full dmg where caustic will. Caustic is still the more dependable poison IMO, you're not relying on chance to keep the same dmg. <div></div><p>Message Edited by t0gar on <span class=date_text>11-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:01 PM</span>

[Jayad]

<P>Well, we tested it a little bit and it seemed like hemo was doing quite a bit more damage.  (This was on an EOF raid with 2x assassins going head to head)  I'll check this weekend if we have both assassins in group again and keep the parse, too.  This was with I think 3 points in hemo.  It seemed a bit counter to my expectations so I want more confirmation.  I'm pretty sure that in groups or easy raid mobs that die fast it would not be so good.</P> <P>Using mental breach... Are you kidding?</P>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xney wrote:<BR> <P>Well, we tested it a little bit and it seemed like hemo was doing quite a bit more damage.  (This was on an EOF raid with 2x assassins going head to head)  I'll check this weekend if we have both assassins in group again and keep the parse, too.  This was with I think 3 points in hemo.  It seemed a bit counter to my expectations so I want more confirmation.  I'm pretty sure that in groups or easy raid mobs that die fast it would not be so good.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Using mental breach... Are you kidding?</FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>my thoughts exactly ?<BR>

[Graton]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>t0gar wrote:<div></div>i do hope you're being sarcastic Nath... hemotoxin should be equal in damage to caustic with the AA's, so unless you feel like spending 5 AA to let you switch poisons... there's a chance it can do less depending on how unlucky you get.(if all the hemo's proc back to back you're doing crap dmg [assuming this is possible with new system]) And if the your hemo just procced before a mobs death it wont do full dmg where caustic will. Caustic is still the more dependable poison IMO, you're not relying on chance to keep the same dmg. <div></div><p>Message Edited by t0gar on <span class="date_text">11-30-2006</span> <span class="time_text">04:01 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>i had the same experience as xney. two assaassins - one ran caustic for the raid, one ran hemo. neither of us have spent points in hemo yet. both times we did this hemotoxin won by ALOT. i was really surprised but i'm quite sure of the numbers.and that mental breach comment was a joke right ?</div><p>Message Edited by Graton on <span class=date_text>12-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:46 AM</span>

[khufure]

<div><blockquote><hr>Graton wrote:<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>t0gar wrote:<div></div>i do hope you're being sarcastic Nath... hemotoxin should be equal in damage to caustic with the AA's, so unless you feel like spending 5 AA to let you switch poisons... there's a chance it can do less depending on how unlucky you get.(if all the hemo's proc back to back you're doing crap dmg [assuming this is possible with new system]) And if the your hemo just procced before a mobs death it wont do full dmg where caustic will. Caustic is still the more dependable poison IMO, you're not relying on chance to keep the same dmg. <div></div><p>Message Edited by t0gar on <span class="date_text">11-30-2006</span> <span class="time_text">04:01 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>i had the same experience as xney. two assaassins - one ran caustic for the raid, one ran hemo. neither of us have spent points in hemo yet. both times we did this hemotoxin won by ALOT. i was really surprised but i'm quite sure of the numbers.and that mental breach comment was a joke right ?</div><p>Message Edited by Graton on <span class="date_text">12-01-2006</span> <span class="time_text">10:46 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I'm the other assassin in guild with Xney.  I have 3 points in Hemo still.  I am crawling that line for the Exacting upgrades.  Actually, I just dinged 5 on exacting so will be putting the 2 points into hemo next.What I found was that Hemotoxin was doing about equal damage in a zone with 3 points.  The hemo shined on long fights, the caustic shined on short fights.  If you think about it this makes sense because on the short fights the hemo doesn't have time to hit all its ticks.  With 5 points I think hemo will be the clear winner.</div>

[Reymien]

<div><blockquote><hr>Nathdorl wrote:why would you want to use this? the 'slot' for the red poison is always in use by mental breach anywayz<hr></blockquote>No offense, but do you even play an assassin?</div>

[Graton]

<div><blockquote><hr>khufure wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Graton wrote:<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>t0gar wrote:<div></div>i do hope you're being sarcastic Nath... hemotoxin should be equal in damage to caustic with the AA's, so unless you feel like spending 5 AA to let you switch poisons... there's a chance it can do less depending on how unlucky you get.(if all the hemo's proc back to back you're doing crap dmg [assuming this is possible with new system]) And if the your hemo just procced before a mobs death it wont do full dmg where caustic will. Caustic is still the more dependable poison IMO, you're not relying on chance to keep the same dmg. <div></div><p>Message Edited by t0gar on <span class="date_text">11-30-2006</span> <span class="time_text">04:01 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>i had the same experience as xney. two assaassins - one ran caustic for the raid, one ran hemo. neither of us have spent points in hemo yet. both times we did this hemotoxin won by ALOT. i was really surprised but i'm quite sure of the numbers.and that mental breach comment was a joke right ?</div><p>Message Edited by Graton on <span class="date_text">12-01-2006</span> <span class="time_text">10:46 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I'm the other assassin in guild with Xney.  I have 3 points in Hemo still.  I am crawling that line for the Exacting upgrades.  Actually, I just dinged 5 on exacting so will be putting the 2 points into hemo next.What I found was that Hemotoxin was doing about equal damage in a zone with 3 points.  The hemo shined on long fights, the caustic shined on short fights.  If you think about it this makes sense because on the short fights the hemo doesn't have time to hit all its ticks.  With 5 points I think hemo will be the clear winner.</div><hr></blockquote>i'll run the same experiment tonite. it may not be perfect now that I think of it since we will be in different groups but the more times we do it the more factors we can control.</div>

[khufure]

<div><blockquote><hr>Graton wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>khufure wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Graton wrote:<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>t0gar wrote:<div></div>i do hope you're being sarcastic Nath... hemotoxin should be equal in damage to caustic with the AA's, so unless you feel like spending 5 AA to let you switch poisons... there's a chance it can do less depending on how unlucky you get.(if all the hemo's proc back to back you're doing crap dmg [assuming this is possible with new system]) And if the your hemo just procced before a mobs death it wont do full dmg where caustic will. Caustic is still the more dependable poison IMO, you're not relying on chance to keep the same dmg. <div></div><p>Message Edited by t0gar on <span class="date_text">11-30-2006</span> <span class="time_text">04:01 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>i had the same experience as xney. two assaassins - one ran caustic for the raid, one ran hemo. neither of us have spent points in hemo yet. both times we did this hemotoxin won by ALOT. i was really surprised but i'm quite sure of the numbers.and that mental breach comment was a joke right ?</div><p>Message Edited by Graton on <span class="date_text">12-01-2006</span> <span class="time_text">10:46 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I'm the other assassin in guild with Xney.  I have 3 points in Hemo still.  I am crawling that line for the Exacting upgrades.  Actually, I just dinged 5 on exacting so will be putting the 2 points into hemo next.What I found was that Hemotoxin was doing about equal damage in a zone with 3 points.  The hemo shined on long fights, the caustic shined on short fights.  If you think about it this makes sense because on the short fights the hemo doesn't have time to hit all its ticks.  With 5 points I think hemo will be the clear winner.</div><hr></blockquote>i'll run the same experiment tonite. it may not be perfect now that I think of it since we will be in different groups but the more times we do it the more factors we can control.</div><hr></blockquote>I'll pick up 2-3 stacks of Hemo and analyze it over a week's worth of raiding parses.  One thing that's nice about our setup is we somehow both ended up with the same weapons (DoN, absolution).  So even though group buffs will be different we have one constant.</div>

[Graton]

myself and our other assassin both use GDoH / DoN so i should be able to get a pretty fair comparison as well.<div></div>

[khufure]

<div><blockquote><hr>Graton wrote:myself and our other assassin both use GDoH / DoN so i should be able to get a pretty fair comparison as well.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Does every assassin have GDOH but me?</div>

[t0gar]

lol no my guild troub got the only GDoH and DoN we've seen. I wouldn't say it's fair for caustic vs. hemo testing with 2 different players using, just too many fudge factors. I'd really like to see some results of someone with 5 AA in hemo using both against the same mobs though, anything that helps DPS I'll give a shot. <div></div>

[Ahlspiess]

Mental breach is counted as "damage" on a parser. So if he wants to use it it won't make any difference on the logs.<div></div>

[Computer MAn]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div><blockquote><hr>khufure wrote:<div><blockquote><div></div><hr></blockquote>Does every assassin have GDOH but me?</div><hr></blockquote>Haven't seen a GDOH in 6 months so nope I dont have one.Edited due to double checking my info.</div><p>Message Edited by Computer MAn on <span class=date_text>12-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:48 PM</span>

[Graton]

so i'd love to provide more info on the caustic vs hemo but last night in EH while fighting the first name ( named wolf ) , we got him down to 50% and then the zone crashed. bye bye raid night. <div></div>

[Jayad]

In last night's DT run GM caustic vs GM hemo parsed pretty close - even with some points in the hemo line for the assassin using it.  Which is different than the previous results.  Looks like we need more testing to be sure.  It might depend on the zone, too.  Hemo just requires mobs with a lot of HP probably to be worth using, so zones like EH, HOS, etc. might be a good choice for it. 

[khufure]

<div><blockquote><hr>Xney wrote:<div></div>In last night's DT run GM caustic vs GM hemo parsed pretty close - even with some points in the hemo line for the assassin using it.  Which is different than the previous results.  Looks like we need more testing to be sure.  It might depend on the zone, too.  Hemo just requires mobs with a lot of HP probably to be worth using, so zones like EH, HOS, etc. might be a good choice for it. <hr></blockquote>Hmm nope.  It was a signficant difference on my parser.  30k+.  Did you normalize per trigger or something?</div>

[Gerdos]

<DIV>This is a good question, and there's a few things to consider.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I haven't looked at this for awhile, nor since EoF.   But, from past experience Caustic will have a greater affect in fights/zones where encounters are short.  ie. Labs, Lyceum, and parts of DT.   Hemotoxin shines in long encounters and zones like HoS and AoA, Contested, Zone Bosses.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1 issue with Hemotoxin, it can trigger over itself, cancelling out the full duration/dmg potential over the original trigger.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What i find more interesting is, the trigger rate.  I'm a ranger,  and from my observations, my poisons reguarly trigger ~ 80% more then what our assassins do.   This gives rangers a greater advantage using Caustic poisons, while negating/wasting the potential of Hemotoxin.   I'm assuming this is related to the slower casting timers Rangers have on their CA's.  Our assassins, reguarly get more hits from their CA's and autoattacks by 50-60% over what the rangers do.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One last thing, their proc's, based on a % ... so, expect some variation in the # of triggers from 1 experience to the next.   That variable wont be too great, but enough to warrant doing this kind of testing several times to find a happy medium.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What changes the new combat revamp has done, i'm not really sure.  I dont think it has affected the trigger rate, but i'll test this out this w/end.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Gerdos on <span class=date_text>12-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:31 PM</span>

[Graton]

trigger rate has been affected. poisons proc more and get used up faster now. funny that someone mentioned 'normalize per trigger' becuase that's exactly what i did after a deathtoll run on Monday I think it was. The numbers came out almost dead equal with caustic winning by about 4 points of dmg per proc.i had 4 points in hemo at the time. i think it's also that most fights in deathtoll are very short. we dropped tarinax in 2 minutes which is the fastest we've ever done it i think. i think we're doing emerald halls trash clearing sometime this weekend so i'll play around more then.<div></div>

[ChildofHate]

<DIV>some how i doubt SOE would make an AA ability that simply brought the effectiveness of a poison up to EQUAL to something else.  That is a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] notion to consider.  I don't have hard numbers to prove anything more (or disprove for that matter) but common sense leads me to believe that if you spend the AA's on the hemo, you will do better dmg then you will with caustic.  Making an aa simply "to give players a better choice" is silly.  This isn't Coke vs Pepsi.  It's about spending points on aa's to better augment your class.  Spending points to make one poison even to another that requires no points spent is a waste of time and redundant in nature.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, i fully expect to start seeing "Oh you know soe, they never do anything that makes sense.. blah blah blah..."  /roll eyes.  Get over that craptastic attitude and simply put up hard numbers by someone with the points put into hemo using hemo and compare their dps to when they are using caustic.</DIV>

[Computer MAn]

<div></div>I went down and got frontload yesterday to check it out so that means 5 points into Hemotoxin. I am doing FTH tonight and EH tomorrow so I will get some total poison damage done by me (using hemotoxins) and our other Assassin (Caustic)<div></div><p>Message Edited by Computer MAn on <span class=date_text>12-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:56 AM</span>

[khufure]

I have been playing with hemo for about a week now with 5 points.  I guess it was small sample size before, because it seems like I am only breaking about even with caustic assassin w/ same weapons.  On shorts fights -- which is most fights -- it sucks.  Even on AoA-Gorenaire last night with the 3 million HP trash mobs it was worse.I don't know what to say, other than it looks like bleeding is the line to crawl.  I'm going to respec bleeding -> final ability, then crawl physicality down for getaway and pickup exacting 5 points.  Maybe someone will buy my 129 remaining GM hemo..<div></div>

[Jayad]

<P>Part of the problem is the hemo AA is a "poisons" line spell and doesn't even contribute to the physicality 20 point requirement for Getaway.  If it weren't needed for the Exacting AA I wouldn't even be looking at it at this point.</P> <P>This is really stupid considering Rangers get a really nice bump to caustic.  Can we just get the same one???</P> <P>I'm wondering if the problems with hemo are just due to short fights or overwrites, or a combination. </P>

[Graton]

<blockquote><hr>ChildofHate wrote:<div>some how i doubt SOE would make an AA ability that simply brought the effectiveness of a poison up to EQUAL to something else.  That is a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] notion to consider.  I don't have hard numbers to prove anything more (or disprove for that matter) but common sense leads me to believe that if you spend the AA's on the hemo, you will do better dmg then you will with caustic.  Making an aa simply "to give players a better choice" is silly.  This isn't Coke vs Pepsi.  It's about spending points on aa's to better augment your class.  Spending points to make one poison even to another that requires no points spent is a waste of time and redundant in nature.</div> <div> </div> <div>Now, i fully expect to start seeing "Oh you know soe, they never do anything that makes sense.. blah blah blah..."  /roll eyes.  Get over that craptastic attitude and simply put up hard numbers by someone with the points put into hemo using hemo and compare their dps to when they are using caustic.</div><hr></blockquote>i don't know what to say other than you're wrong in short. not everything in this game is logical. weapons with worse dmg ratings are better than others based on how critical hit %age and min / max ratios. how logical is it that caustic poison in general, all aa, aside is always beter than hemotoxin. why have an inferior poison in the game? it's not logical, many things aren't.<div></div>

[Outerspace]

I think over time Hemotoxin (+Enhance: Hemotoxin (5)) can be as good as Caustic - if it crits, if it procs immediately and if it's always ticking on the mob. There are some scenarios where I suppose Hemotoxin might be better, i.e. if you open with Cloaked Assault on a group of 3 and you get a critical proc on each mob. However there are scenarios where Caustic is a lot better. Looking at a short fight, for example those drakes that are in Labs. I'm in combat for 16 seconds there and I get 7 procs from caustic with 4 crits, total damage 7310 (would have been more had I landed Enmesh sooner). With Hemotoxin, assuming it's a crit, assuming it procs straight away and assuming it's ticking for about 530 every 3.5 seconds, it would have done only done 2650 in that time even if it had procced 7 times as my Caustic did. The maximum you can get in a minute from Hemotoxin in perfect situation with that tick rate is about 9000 damage. But you are assuming that as one charge finishes you get another proc - which you would have to be incredibly lucky to achieve. You're also assuming you get a crit. You could easily blow your average of 5 procs per minute in 15 seconds: which in the best possible scenario will only give you two charges worth of damage (the first proc and the last one if the fight lasts long enough for it to tick out). That's the best thing about caustic - you get the full damage from every charge without any overlapping. The best poison can also be in the hands of the RNG. On Vyemm tonight for example, I only got 2 procs of hemotoxin in 3 minutes (one crit, one not)... but I gained 4k damage from that because the procs were 30 seconds apart and ticked their full damage. Had I been using caustic, I would only have gained about 2.5k from those 2 procs.<div></div>

[Graton]

i currently have 4 points in hemo. tonite while clearing the early trash in IS i used a vile of caustic and then a vile of hemotoxin. the total dmg of the vials was within 2K of one another with hemo slightly ahead. it was less than a 1 % difference. I plan to stay at lvl 4 for awhile and play with this more. posting my results as i go.<div></div>

[khufure]

<div><blockquote><hr>Outerspace wrote:I think over time Hemotoxin (+Enhance: Hemotoxin (5)) can be as good as Caustic - if it crits, if it procs immediately and if it's always ticking on the mob. There are some scenarios where I suppose Hemotoxin might be better, i.e. if you open with Cloaked Assault on a group of 3 and you get a critical proc on each mob. However there are scenarios where Caustic is a lot better. Looking at a short fight, for example those drakes that are in Labs. I'm in combat for 16 seconds there and I get 7 procs from caustic with 4 crits, total damage 7310 (would have been more had I landed Enmesh sooner). With Hemotoxin, assuming it's a crit, assuming it procs straight away and assuming it's ticking for about 530 every 3.5 seconds, it would have done only done 2650 in that time even if it had procced 7 times as my Caustic did. The maximum you can get in a minute from Hemotoxin in perfect situation with that tick rate is about 9000 damage. But you are assuming that as one charge finishes you get another proc - which you would have to be incredibly lucky to achieve. You're also assuming you get a crit. You could easily blow your average of 5 procs per minute in 15 seconds: which in the best possible scenario will only give you two charges worth of damage (the first proc and the last one if the fight lasts long enough for it to tick out). That's the best thing about caustic - you get the full damage from every charge without any overlapping. The best poison can also be in the hands of the RNG. On Vyemm tonight for example, I only got 2 procs of hemotoxin in 3 minutes (one crit, one not)... but I gained 4k damage from that because the procs were 30 seconds apart and ticked their full damage. Had I been using caustic, I would only have gained about 2.5k from those 2 procs.<div></div><hr></blockquote>My experience with hemotoxin and caustic supports this.  I feel like caustic is more consistent.  5 points in something else would be more useful.</div>

[Gerdos]

<DIV>Tested ranger vs assassin using Caustic poisons only.   Can confirm, trigger counts have been normalised.  There was less then 2% difference from the trigger and crit # between the assassin and ranger.  This is a huge change as a result of the combat changes.   Both ranger and assassin are equally specced on the INT predator AA tree.   The 10% bonus to caustic poisons from the new Ranger AA tree does give rangers a slight advantage in terms of raw damage from caustic poisons.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM> (However, the normalization of proc's triggering has seen an overall drop in raw damage from caustic for rangers and an increase for assassins.)</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM>edited:  actually too early to call that.  Test was done in the new zones only.   Will have a better idea on overall impact on raw damage once tested on the KoS zones.</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Plan on testing Hemotoxin next week.</DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Gerdos on <span class=date_text>12-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:45 AM</span>

[Outerspace]

<div></div>Even if Hemotoxin procs a million times, you still only get the same tick rate. On longer fights it's probably better, but not necessarily. Your procs can be wasted by overlapping, or by the time it procs there may not be time for it to do any damage towards the end of the fight. I often get several caustic procs in a few seconds, which is great, but with hemotoxin it is actually worse for your DPS if it happens.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Outerspace on <span class=date_text>12-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:03 PM</span>

[Gorth]

<P>Well, I went ahead and maxed out hemotoxin for testing..At level 5, its 14 second duration, 3.5 seconds between ticks - which, over time, *should* yield more damage than caustic. based on the 4.9 proc/minute rate that they should show over extended parsing - hemotoxin should be on nearly full time, which yields 17 hits per minute. Now, based on base displayed, non crit dmg, at 313 per hit, yields 5321 dmg/minute.. Caustic, also at 4.9 proc rate, rounding it to an even 5, at 695 base non-crit damage, yields 3475 damage per minute. Yes, RNG will make caustic more effective periodically, but over the long run, hemotox *should* come out significantly ahead with the AA boost...</P> <P> </P> <P>Also, when considering overall group/raid dps..... Apply Poison buff gives someone else a hemotoxin proc... and, this is also modified by our AA =) </P> <P>I have noticed my dps rising since getting these AAs, but haven't done detailed log parsing to see if its a coincidental increase.</P>

[Gorth]

<DIV>Just checked current parse for tonights raid... So far... out of 2,555,827 total damage i've done, 242,745 has been from hemotoxin, almost 10%.</DIV>

[khufure]

<div></div>I still have 70 GM Hemo on the broker for sale in Nektulos.  Buy them please for your own tests.  Please don't assume I was right, even a week of sample size is still pretty small.BTW if you are doing hemo tests can you detail your haste buffs plz?  10% is higher than what I got, I think my hemo was 7 or 8%.<div></div><p>Message Edited by khufure on <span class=date_text>12-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:00 PM</span>

[t0gar]

Chicken scratch calculations, correct me plz if any are wrong. Using a 5 proc per minute rate as in poison description. All poisons are non-rare.My poison dmg... Caustic: 474...............Hemo: 213/proc for 5 procs(as explained later)Caustic-474 x 5 = 2370 damage per minuteHemo(with 5/5 AA's)-following the trend of -2 each use you'll have -10 seconds on the duration bringing it down to 14 secs. With an instant proc and 1 every 6 secs you get 5 procs before it'd run out, so... 14 secs/5 procs = a proc every 2.8 seconds. 5 procs per minute, so... 60 seconds/5 procs = 12 seconds between each proc. Obviously procs wont occur so nicely so i will make a little adjustment to my later calculations. If it procs exactly on the 12 second marker each time you will lose 1 proc, so lets take it out... reducing it to:213 x 4 = 852213 x 3 = 639So given a marginal error of 1 extra proc, you're still doing more damage than Caustic.852 x 5 = 4260639 x 5 = 3195Your dmg per minute should then be not much less than 1k dmg unless you're really unlucky and as high as 2k more, but once again this is non-rare poison so all you rare users the differences will increase. I have no idea how to calculate in the crits so if someone else wants to do that be my guest. Frontload changes this a bit, but you wont be able to use it every fight so I think it's safe to say that with 5 AA's into hemo it should be better.<div></div>

[Outerspace]

Hehe, good that we are getting some better information.  <span>:smileyhappy:</span>The big big big big assumption is that Hemotoxin procs nicely for you. If it does, then yes it should over longer fights and on fights with multiple mobs be better. But unfortunately this seemed to be rare when I used it, and on a zone parse it seemed to be slightly less damage overall than caustic. What if you get 5 hemo procs in 15 seconds and no more for the rest of that particular minute? It's pefectly viable to get 5 caustic procs in 15 seconds.I'm going to try it again though once I get more AA points.<div></div>

[t0gar]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>Goofed on the calculations a bit. Hemotoxin shouldn't have been divided by 5 to find the duration between ticks but instead 4 and the instant added on later. So the time between ticks is 3.5 seconds. This ultimately doesn't change any of the final numbers though.<p>Message Edited by t0gar on <span class=date_text>12-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:11 AM</span>

[Gorth]

<DIV>So far tonight.... 1,277,640 outgoing dmg.. 106,321 dmg from hemotoxin... running 211ish dps and 68 haste, more when i pop focus/honed reflexes... Average hit on hemotoxin is running 513, at 292 displayed dmg on the buff icon...  Its a little low though, have had some downtime where it ran out and I didnt notice.. =)</DIV>

[Gorth]

Also, parsing from last night, showed Apply Poison at adept 3, on main tank, did 6.6% of his total damage output.. a bit better than it was pre-AA boost - not going to put points into boosting proc chance of it though.

[khufure]

<div><blockquote><hr>t0gar wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div>Goofed on the calculations a bit. Hemotoxin shouldn't have been divided by 5 to find the duration between ticks but instead 4 and the instant added on later. So the time between ticks is 3.5 seconds. This ultimately doesn't change any of the final numbers though.<p>Message Edited by t0gar on <span class="date_text">12-20-2006</span> <span class="time_text">12:11 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Run a week of zone parses total damage caustic.Run a week of zone parses total damage hemo.Keep the same groups as much as possible.Compare.That's IMO the best way to calculate crits, damage, etc.  I don't trust Sony display damage only results.</div>

[Gorth]

<DIV>Little more data - with caustic, have been running 5-6k/minute on average.. hemo, 6-7k/minute on average.. just did an AA respec, will see how they measure up with max spell crits, have been running only rank 5 crits, so I could use intoxication.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Gorthag on <span class=date_text>12-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:11 AM</span>

[R2Chie]

        I have all 5 points in hemotoxins and here was my observations:Trash mobs and in general mobs with lower hp - with caustic i was doing more damageOn named mobs with alot more hp i was in general doing more damage and quite considerable at times with hemotoxin aa maxed out. Places like labs it didnt seem worth using hemo as the mobs all die within a few secs throughout the zone excluding the named which usually take a minute or so. In turn caustic with bigger dmg procs came out on top as the hemo just dosent get enough time to tic for its full damage amount really.On long fights and in new zones i have been using the stuff religiously, FTH and EH and DT i must admit to using it more than ever before. As for the poster regarding mental breech - please get a clue.Used Mental breech twice and that was only on the named in the waterfall in EH because it was a very long fight with only 22ppl and even then i was using caustic till i was down to 500 mana where i quickly applied it from hotbar to get mana back up for ca's.Its our job to do damage, spamming ca's and having max power dosent equal more dps, surely you must realise that. And unless a fight is over a few mins (4+ atleast) then its really not worth your hassle having mental breech what so ever..<div></div>

[R2Chie]

meant to say my group setup while doing those tests were nearly identical, both times having dirge buffs and there new aa luck of the dirge, along with a inquisitor giving me extra dps buffs.  Haste buff wise had a monk using m1 group haste buff and whenever the inq was slacking off and feeding me haste buff mid fights <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[t0gar]

Was just going to make note of the new dirge AA for improved proc rate. Anyone else have any experience to whether this brings out more damage from caustic or hemo on longer fight? It seems really pointless to have frontload and luck of the dirge and still use hemo even with 5 AA, but I don't have a dirge handy to parse anything out. Another thing. What is the definition of longer fights? Some of you say that it parses better on longer fights, but is this 1 minute fights? 2 minutes? more?<div></div>