Excessive bleeding question

[-Steppenwolf-]

I'm trying to understand how Excessive bleeding works... when the debuff is over does the mob gets all his HP back, or does it get back 5% of its max HP minus the damage done while it was debuffed?If I debuff the mob when it is under 5%, will it die right away?<div></div>

[Jayad]

<P>Pretty sure it works like most debuffs, which is it shrinks the health pool by a %.  It goes to ( %current hp - %loss ) * current hp.  So if he has 90 out of 100 hp, and you have a 5% debuff on him, he should go to 95% * 90 = 86 hp, max 95.  (rounded up)  When your debuffs expire he gets those HP back.</P> <P>It's valuable if you can keep dots active, especially towards the end.</P><p>Message Edited by Xney on <span class=date_text>11-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:47 AM</span>

[Facedown]

Does it actually show 'soandso takes excessive bleeding damage' or is it just a debuff?<div></div>

[Jayad]

<DIV>I don't have it yet, but I would be real surprised if it shows up as damage.  I'm 95% sure it's just a debuff.  (When it expires would it be a heal? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )</DIV>

[Bugah]

As far as I have seen, there is nothing on the mob that shows that bleeding is active although I admit I haven't looked too closely.<div></div>

[judged_one]

I got excessive bleeding last night.From what I see, I dont think the mob will get their HP Back.1.) Assume 1000 hp2.) 5 Bleeding CA in3.) mob is now 950/9504.) Assuming that no damage is done to the mob After the DoTs expired5.) mob is now 950/1000I am pretty sure during DoF when Sta debuff bug was in, the mob was healing so they fixed that.But I was testing against another player in a duel. Going to try it on raid tonight.Can any Dev verify if this AA for us?Cheers<p>Message Edited by judged_one on <span class=date_text>11-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:08 PM</span>

[-Steppenwolf-]

That would be really powerfull on mobs with several million HP, I was thinking it should be something along the lines of:- Mob has 1000 HP- Debuffed to 950 HP- 500 damage is done- Debuff expires and mob gets back 5% of its remaining HP - in this case it would get back 23HP(5% of 450)If the mob gets its full HP back (in my example 50 HP), then I'm not sure it's worth the points.<div></div>

[Satie]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>-Steppenwolf- wrote:That would be really powerfull on mobs with several million HP, I was thinking it should be something along the lines of:- Mob has 1000 HP- Debuffed to 950 HP- 500 damage is done- Debuff expires and mob gets back 5% of its remaining HP - in this case it would get back 23HP(5% of 450)If the mob gets its full HP back (in my example 50 HP), then I'm not sure it's worth the points.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Tested it in a duel last night and thats exactly how it works.  With 8000hp it was 400 and at half health (4000hp) was 200 so its not more or less effective if you do it in the begining or end of the fight, but rather how long and by what % you can keep the mob debuffed throughout the fight.You can think of it as teh reverce of a group/raid dps buff, just that instead of getting higher raid dps, everyone is hitting for a bigger chunk of the mobs hp.A practical scenario. . . . mob has 100k and you debuff the hp by lets say 10% to 90k and then you decapitate for 20k.  Thats down to 70k and now the debuff expires 70+10%=77k.  Well you effectivly did 3k more damage.Satinah - 70 AssassinSalinah - 70 CoercerThe Bekwen Alliance - Antonia Bayle<div></div><p>Message Edited by Satie on <span class=date_text>11-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:34 AM</span>

[judged_one]

Blah, I am sad that no one notice that I was taking 5% off the raid mob health last night at raid.Blah, I should have went gateway or repeated stabbing first. : (Is it still true that you still get a 30sec in stealth free for all if you are not attacked?

[judged_one]

<blockquote><hr>-Steppenwolf- wrote:That would be really powerfull on mobs with several million HP, I was thinking it should be something along the lines of:- Mob has 1000 HP- Debuffed to 950 HP- 500 damage is done- Debuff expires and mob gets back 5% of its remaining HP - in this case it would get back 23HP(5% of 450)If the mob gets its full HP back (in my example 50 HP), then I'm not sure it's worth the points.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Ok here are some equations:Let Hi be the inital HpLet Hd be the debuffed HpLet Hm be the Mob's maxium HPLet Hf be the final Hp of mob after damage inflicted and debuff expiredDebuff Hp equationHd = [Hi/Hm * (Hm x 95%<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />]Hd = Hi * 95%Hd = .95HiWhat happen when damage is inflicted and debuff expired[(Hd - damage) / (Max * 95%<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />] * Max= (Hd - damage)/95%Sub in HdHf = [(Hi * 95%<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> - damage]/95%Hf = .95Hi - D /.95 D-damage inflicted during debuff.DPS inflicted by EB is simplyHi - Hf - Damage / timeLets try this equation out assuming mob have 1000 hp and you inflicted 500 damage before debuff expired Hf = 1000 * .95 - 500 / .95Hf = 473Hd = .95 * 1000Hd = 950DPS 1000 -473 -500 / timeDPS 27/timeSo basically EB inflicted 27 damage during that whole time.Lets do a realistic raid mob. Assuming that fight is 100s, and mob has 2 million HP So it will take 20k DPS to kill this mob in 100 s.Assuming that Debuff occurs every 30 second , with 5 second durations. Initally 5% then 4% after due to recast of slaughtersaulttime | HPPull 100s | 2 000 k hp95s | 1 900 k hpDebuffs in | Hf = .95 Hi - Damage / .95 Debuffs out 90s | 1794 k hp | Damage = 1900k - 1794k - 100k DPS D = 6k60s | 1194 k hpDebuffs in | Hf = .96 Hi - Damage / .96 (96%, due to slaughtersault)Debuffs out 55s | 1089.8 k hp | DPS = 1194k - 1089.8k - 100k D= 4.2k25s | 489.8 k hpDebuffs in | Hf = .96 Hi - Damage / .96 Debuffs out 20s | 385.6k | DPS = 489.8k - 385.6k - 100k D= 4.2k4s | 0hpTotal time is 96s and EB did 14400 damage So total DPS is 150DPSIs it worth 21 AA?<p>Message Edited by judged_one on <span class=date_text>11-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:12 PM</span>

[Satie]

I am having a hard time following you on those calculations lol, whatever you are doing though i think its wrong, because IMO in a raid scenario 150dps is way too low to be right.We can have 3% up pretty much constantly and its 3% ONLY at the time you apply it, Its 6-10% or more as time goes by and the mob is at half health or dead before excessive bleeding expires.  Also, thats not counting raw hp you are debuffing at the time the mob dies.  Cant really give you exact numbers because i am not very good at math, but i am expecting something like .03xraiddps to be the bare minimum for me to believe. . . more like .05xraiddps and a few thousand hp debuff at time of kill is what i think it is on average.Satinah/Salinah<div></div>

[Jayad]

<P>OK if you're not following the math, here's a simple example. </P> <P>Let's say you have a 1,000,000 HP mob and your raid is doing 10K dps.  This means the mob will die in 100 seconds normally.  If you debuff 5% of its HP the *entire* fight, the raid still does 10K dps but the mob dies in 95 seconds (because it has 5% less HP).  Although the raid dps doesn't go "up", compared to the mob originally it's <STRONG>like</STRONG> your raid did 1,000,000 HP in 95s = 10,526 DPS, in terms of effectiveness.</P> <P>Another way to look at it is it's like the brigand's debuffs, it lets you do more dps compared to not having it on, just works differently. </P> <P>Of course, you can't have it on all the time, but it will let your raid clear mobs by making them easier.</P> <P>It won't show up in any parsers but this is a powerful ability.</P> <P>Even if you debuff 5% of the HP only 25% of the time you end up with doing significantly better.  Think of it as doing 5% more DPS while the 5% debuff is on.  Let's say the fight is 200 seconds long at 10k dps.  For the 50 seconds you have the debuff on, your raid does 10,500 dps.  The total then is (150*10,000) + (50*10,500) = 2,025,000 hp of damage done, relatively speaking, or 10,125 dps.  That 125 "dps" more is because of you.  It won't show up in the parser but you will have to do less damage to kill the same mobs.  There's not a lot of CAs that have that kind of DPS potential except other debuffs.</P> <P>p.s. yes the math isn't exactly right but it's close.  (you would really have to account for the health coming back and the debuff at the time to be accurate)</P><p>Message Edited by Xney on <span class=date_text>12-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:14 PM</span>

[Satie]

<div></div>I know how it works Xney.  Your just repeating what everyone above has said including me.  Seems like judged_one above is proposing that excessive bleeding is 150dps.  All i am saying is that i dont agree with this and gave some rough numbers to give an idea of what i would expect to see from it in a raid scenario.<blockquote><hr>Xney wrote:<div></div> <div></div><p>Even if you debuff 5% of the HP only 25% of the time you end up with doing significantly better.  Think of it as doing 5% more DPS while the 5% debuff is on.</p><hr></blockquote>If you read my post youll see thats exactly what i am doing.  However, thats still wrong too because its 5% ONLY AT THE TIME YOU DEBUFF the mob.  The debuffed hp stays the same but that % goes higher and higher as damage is done to the mob.  The only way to calculate this is if you know when the debuffs were applied, when they expired, how much damage it was done durring that time and add teh difference.Satinah/Salinah<div></div><p>Message Edited by Satie on <span class=date_text>12-02-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:33 AM</span>

[judged_one]

Let me make it simplier.Stamina Debuff (EB) doesn't do any actual damage.Here is how it workMob health are based on percentage.1000/1000 is same percentage as 950/950However the beauty of stamina debuff is that you CA does a set amount of damage not percentage.Let say you CA does 100 damageundebuffed:900/1000(90%) vs debuffed:850/950(89.5%) is a big different.Let say the Debuff wore off at this point.The mob health becomes 895/1000 (89.5%)As you can see not a whole lot of damage.As the mob HP increase the Damage due to debuff also increase.

[judged_one]

p.s. yes the math isn't exactly right but it's close. (you would really have to account for the health coming back and the debuff at the time to be accurate)I agree, it is just a quick assumption to see what potential it has. Cause once you start stack other stamina debuff it is a whole different story.since 20% debuff vs 25% debuff is different than 0% and 5%.And I generalize the debuff timer to exactly 30sec. But I do see it doing more than 200DPS reagardless.200dps is 20000 damage in a 100 second fight btw. so it is like having another decapitate.

[Satie]

<div></div>At 15k raid dps: Flowing Wound (1%/24sec hp debuff) <b>With Excessive Bleeding:</b> At 1mil hp, 1% debuff for 24sec at 15k raid dps [(1000000x0.99)-(15kx24sec)]x1.01=<b>636300</b> <b>Without Excessive Bleeding:</b> At 1mil hp for 24sec at 15k raid dps 1000000-(15kx24sec)=<b>640000</b> 640000-636300=<b>3700hp</b>/24sec = <b>154dps</b> So, its basically a little higher then (raiddps x % hp debuff).  The shorter the fight and the higher the raid dps, the higher benefit you see from it. Thats just from <b>ONE</b> bleeding ability, we have 5 of which we can have 3 up at all times and 2 up sometimes of which one is aoe.  In a practical scenario with a steady raid that burns through the zone at a constant rate of 15-20k raid dps you should see like <b>500-800dps</b> from excessive bleeding, 300-400 on slow fights where the raid dps suffers and up to 800-1kdps on insane burn fights with 20k+dps depending on how fast the mob dies and how high the raid dps is. Correct me if i am wrong pls! <b> </b>Satinah/Salinah<div></div><p>Message Edited by Satie on <span class=date_text>12-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:03 AM</span>

[whytakemine]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Satie wrote:<BR> At 15k raid dps: Flowing Wound (1%/24sec hp debuff)<BR><BR><B>With Excessive Bleeding:</B><BR>At 1mil hp, 1% debuff for 24sec at 15k raid dps<BR>[(1000000x0.99)-(15kx24sec)]x1.01=<B>636300</B><BR><BR><B>Without Excessive Bleeding:</B><BR>At 1mil hp for 24sec at 15k raid dps<BR>1000000-(15kx24sec)=<B>640000</B><BR><BR>640000-636300=<B>3700hp</B>/24sec = <B>154dps</B><BR><BR>So, its basically a little higher then (raiddps x % hp debuff).  The shorter the fight and the higher the raid dps, the higher benefit you see from it.<BR><BR>Thats just from <B>ONE</B> bleeding ability, we have 5 of which we can have 3 up at all times and 2 up sometimes of which one is aoe.  In a practical scenario with a steady raid that burns through the zone at a constant rate of 15-20k raid dps you should see like <B>500-800dps</B> from excessive bleeding, 300-400 on slow fights where the raid dps suffers and up to 800-1kdps on insane burn fights with 20k+dps depending on how fast the mob dies and how high the raid dps is.<BR><BR>Correct me if i am wrong pls!<BR><BR><B><BR><BR></B>Satinah/Salinah <P>Message Edited by Satie on <SPAN class=date_text>12-06-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:03 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>That's pretty much how I think of it (and all STA debuffs).  You're essentially increasing the entire raid's dps by a certain percent.  If you just keep 3 dot's active, the mob's HP are 3% lower so in effect you just added 3% to your total raid dps.</P> <P>If your raid is running 15k dps, then it's like bumping it up to 15.5k dps.  If you're into personal glory, this ability won't show up in your parse numbers, but if you're into helping the raid I think this is the best ability we have and rivals any of the KoS AA's. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Ganx]

Just tell us if it's worth it or not =p

[Jayad]

Does anybody know if two assassins will stack bleeding?

[judged_one]

Hard to say if it is really worth it until you can figure out if RS add what percentage.And you can't really parse Gateway either.<p>Message Edited by judged_one on <span class=date_text>12-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:12 PM</span>

[Satie]

<div></div>I am sorry, but theres no way you are gonna get that kind of numbers from repeated stabbing.  It'll literally have to double your melee damage to compare.Excessive Bleeding and Gateway are just obvious winners IMO and going down those 2 lines is hardly wasting your points aswell.Satinah/Salinah<div></div><p>Message Edited by Satie on <span class=date_text>12-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:35 PM</span>

[evilpants]

Kinda embarrassed even asking but what are the 5 bleeding CA's? I know theres Flowing and Deadly but cant think of which the others are. Oh God, I'm a noob!

[Jayad]

<P>it's the Bleeding AA tree, as far as the EOF Assassin AAs are concerned.  They are: Scraping Blow, Flowing Wound, Deadly Wound, Exposing Mark, Cloaked Assault.  Freezing Strike and Jugular are both "Tricks" line abilities.</P>

[Computer MAn]

I had Excessive Bleeding for a couple days and recently respeced out of it. I don't know about everyone else but I just didn't like it considering we can only keep up 3 dots permanatly it just doesn't really seem worth it. I am currently experimenting with hemotoxins and frontload and am actually liking the Hemotoxin's. I don't know whether our other Assasssin (who did come late) was using caustic 100% of the time I was using hemotoxin but at the end of the night my Hemotoxin was coming out ahead by a good amount of damage.<div></div>

[Jayad]

I didn't see much difference between my caustic and another's hemo (with AA).  I think it depends a lot on zone.  I'm not sure I'd want to put AAs into hemo if it's not useful at least most of the time.  It can use more testing though.

[khufure]

<div><blockquote><hr>Computer MAn wrote:I had Excessive Bleeding for a couple days and recently respeced out of it. I don't know about everyone else but I just didn't like it considering we can only keep up 3 dots permanatly it just doesn't really seem worth it. I am currently experimenting with hemotoxins and frontload and am actually liking the Hemotoxin's. I don't know whether our other Assasssin (who did come late) was using caustic 100% of the time I was using hemotoxin but at the end of the night my Hemotoxin was coming out ahead by a good amount of damage.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Want to buy my 130 GM hemos?</div>

[whytakemine]

<div><blockquote><hr>Xney wrote:<div></div>I didn't see much difference between my caustic and another's hemo (with AA).  I think it depends a lot on zone.  I'm not sure I'd want to put AAs into hemo if it's not useful at least most of the time.  It can use more testing though.<hr></blockquote>I'd expect on AoE fights hemo should do better, since if you can get it to land on off-target mobs it will have a better chance to tick out.</div>

[Gorth]

<P>Anyone have proof that Excessive Bleeding is actually working on epic mobs? Since there's no icon/etc.. its a bit hard to tell for sure.... Just got ability last night, downed Mistress in EH, parser showed her as taking right about 4.4 million hp in damage...  pulled up log files from the last kill of her, she took right about 4.4 million hp in damge... 3 dots were on her full time, and the other 2 as timers permitted....  Even considering just the 3 that were on fulltime, there should have been a difference of at least 130k or so in damage...</P> <P>If it is actually working... would be nice to see the actual mechanics of how it works - ie., where the debuff is applied in the calculations, what happens when it drops, etc.... could work several different ways depending on when/how its figured..</P> <P>Current max hp - total damage taken = current hp,  current hp/current max hp = hp% ?</P> <P>Or, it may be something a bit more complicated... does it also affect current hp? </P> <P>For example... if a mob is at 150,000 hp of 1 million... when you drop all 5 dots on it, does it now have 150,000 hp of 950,000? or 100,000 of 950,000? or 142,500 of 950,000?  It all depends on where the debuff is applied in the calculations, and how the damage taken is applied against the mobs hp total...</P> <P>Also, how are the calculations done when the dots wear off? </P> <P>I know that you can approximate effects by dueling.. but as things dont necessarily affect mobs in the same way as players in pvp.......</P> <P>Any solid tested data, or links to some official word on the matter, would be greatly appreciated - I've seen some nice calculations in here, but only based off of assumptions of how it may work, not actual tested/official word, unless i misread something....</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Jvaloth]

<DIV>Prolly yet another worthless AA.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>