Assassins vs Magic Users RE: Raids

[Dracor]

In a raid environment, why would anyone take an assassin over a Wizard, Necro or Warlock?Whenever I parse out, it's the rare mob my assassin can beat DPS over those other classes. I have to basically keep my stuff AD3 or Master to compete even with an App4 wizard on the DPS chart. And if we have more than two or three mobs, forget it. We lose hands down.Vs all the other melee classes, I PWN the chart, but as an assassin, my purpose should be for DPS and DPS pretty much exclusively. It bothers me when even one mob is there I can end up losing on the DPS meter to a wizzie class.It has to be a really really long battle for me to really just PWN the DPS chart, but that rarely happens. Most of the time, if people start runnin  out of mana, the mob runs out of life in short order anyway.So honestly, what's the deal? Why would someone want to take an assassin if they had one slot open and there was an assassin, a wizzie and a warlock all ready to go?<div></div>

[Mr. Dawki]

<P>wizzys are getting more proc gear nowadays to help them out</P> <P>on a single mob you win hands down</P> <P>if its 3 mobs or more a warlock will win hands down, unless he pulls agro and dies</P>

[JohnDoe058]

<P>This reply comes from a wizard, not an assassin, but i hope that it's welcome anyway.</P> <P>Reasons to pick an assassin over a wizard, in a raid:</P> <P>1.  Much better aggro sinks (even as of EoF).  You don't need pallies, gaurdians, or troubadours to "babysit" you.  You can do good DPS all by yourself, without massive aggro issues.</P> <P>2.  Less power issues.   No cries from assassins of "Wait!  I need power!"</P> <P>3.  Not nearly as squishy.  You might survive 1, or even 2 hits.</P> <P> </P> <P>As far as being able to consistently exceed the DPS of an equally geared/upgraded sorcerer....if you could do this, you would be better in EVERY POSSIBLE way.  That would not be balanced.  You have benefits, and we have benefits.  This is the way that it should be.</P> <P>I hope that I haven't written this in ignorance, since I don't play an assassin.  Feel free to correct me on any of these issues.</P>

[Defianc3]

<div></div>I sometimes out parse Wizards on raids with Multiple Encounters, some raid zones are meant for Wizzies to do the most DPS, others are meant for the Scouts.Labs, i'll Win.LOA, Wizzies Get the Trophy. Etc... It just all depends on the set up, but then again I help the casters from dieing when i'm put into the MT Grp, because of our hate xfer (and we can gain alot of hate fast) we help give the MT of the Raid more control over mobs. Specially helps in Raid Zones like Lyceum when you don't have a Berserker to hold aggro over multiple encounters.But overall I wouldn't say those Classes ALYWAYS out parse Assassin's, Even Zonewide I am always in the top 3, mind you I have ad3 and a few m1 CA's, and mostly MC Gear cept for a Few Fabled i've gotten in Raids, and i'm competeing againest fully fabled Wizzies that are barely missing any masters.And not many Classes can Auto Attack like a Assassin can and still make the parse <span><span>:smileywink:. I'm at 20% Melee Crit and 53% Spell Crit, I can do a ton of dmg just with Poison and Auto Attacking alone.</span></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Defianc3 on <span class=date_text>11-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:49 PM</span>

[HazNpho]

That last post got me thinking... whats more important, Spell Crit or Melee? I'd think Melee... but if he has his Spell above melee, maybe I'm missing something.<div></div>

[Jayad]

<P>I usually parse #1 zone-wide, even if it's #2 or #3 on many fights, because we can do very good damage *all the time*.  So the wizard might do more one fight, and the warlock do more the next, and the conjuror after that, but over all three I've done the most.</P> <P>Some suggestions:</P> <OL> <LI>Get the GDOH, DoN, etc. or at least good fabled DWs.  Not sure what the new good EOF ones will be.</LI> <LI>Get your STR way up, then INT</LI> <LI>Get in the right groups with haste & dps buffs as well as more str/int</LI> <LI>Dirges are your friend</LI> <LI>Get masters in everything</LI></OL> <P> Assassins can put out some pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good DPS, especially when the temporary buffs are up.  Although we don't need group buffs for aggro help so much, we do need the right group buffs to do good dps.  There's also no substitution for some good weapons and gobs of STR.</P>

[whytakemine]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crack Junkie wrote:<BR> <P>This reply comes from a wizard, not an assassin, but i hope that it's welcome anyway.</P> <P>Reasons to pick an assassin over a wizard, in a raid:</P> <P>1.  Much better aggro sinks (even as of EoF).  You don't need pallies, gaurdians, or troubadours to "babysit" you.  You can do good DPS all by yourself, without massive aggro issues.</P> <P><FONT color=#99ff33>However, to match wizzie dps we really need buffs from other classes.  So you need extra help to control aggro, we need extra help to do maximum dps.  I prefer our problems over yours though - I can typically do much better dps in a group setting than wizzies can since the aggro control just isn't there.  In raids I think it about equals out.</FONT></P> <P>2.  Less power issues.   No cries from assassins of "Wait!  I need power!"</P> <P><FONT color=#99ff33>Agreed.  If I'm hurting for power, I just switch to mental breach poison instead of caustic.  Having the flexibility to switch out poisons is IMO one of our best advantages.</FONT></P> <P>3.  Not nearly as squishy.  You might survive 1, or even 2 hits.</P> <P><FONT color=#99ff33>Meh, it's not often I pull aggro and survive, but maybe with the new combat changes once they get everything working right.  Even so, I think this is more than balanced by the fact that wizzies/warlocks can sit at max range and not lose much dps.  With my current gear I can sit through most aoe's as long as the healer can toss me a heal here and there - but when I first started raiding I couldn't.  Even trash mob AoE's could sometimes one-shot me.  Then there are the mandatory jousts (talendor) or non-melee fights (corsolander, or that mob that is melee immune/magic immune but always dead before it switches).  Wizzies don't have to worry abou that.</FONT></P> <P>As far as being able to consistently exceed the DPS of an equally geared/upgraded sorcerer....if you could do this, you would be better in EVERY POSSIBLE way.  That would not be balanced.  You have benefits, and we have benefits.  This is the way that it should be.</P> <P><FONT color=#99ff33>Agreed.  For the most part I think the "Tier 1" dps classes are pretty well balanced.  The only change I would like to see is to nerf the nuke/root ability of many classes.  IMO no class should be able to solo a yellow named ^^^.  Yes, I'm calling for a nerf on my own toon (coercer).  Heck, just soloing a yellow ^^^ should be beyond the abilities of all but the strongest solo'ers.</FONT></P> <P>I hope that I haven't written this in ignorance, since I don't play an assassin.  Feel free to correct me on any of these issues.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Facedown]

<div><blockquote><hr>Dracorat wrote:In a raid environment, why would anyone take an assassin over a Wizard, Necro or Warlock?<font color="#0000ff">Generally, most raids will only bring 1 assassin, thats a simple rule of utility - we only offer hate transfer and a proc (and a few debuffs).</font>Whenever I parse out, it's the rare mob my assassin can beat DPS over those other classes. I have to basically keep my stuff AD3 or Master to compete even with an App4 wizard on the DPS chart. And if we have more than two or three mobs, forget it. We lose hands down.<font color="#0000cc">We arent very good on any encounter with more then 2-3 mobs, simply because we only get 2 ae's on very slow recast timers.</font>Vs all the other melee classes, I PWN the chart, but as an assassin, my purpose should be for DPS and DPS pretty much exclusively. It bothers me when even one mob is there I can end up losing on the DPS meter to a wizzie class.<font color="#0000ff">I generally parse several hundred dps higher in a merged parse then other melee, we are the kings of melee dps. If youre losing single target dps to a wizard, adjust your strategy to suit the encounter - if its a quick burn down trash mob, open with something big and skip dots and go for just back attacks, you shouldnt lose single targets to a wizard.</font>It has to be a really really long battle for me to really just PWN the DPS chart, but that rarely happens. Most of the time, if people start runnin  out of mana, the mob runs out of life in short order anyway.<font color="#0000ff">Concealment helps a lot with short fights, it lets you chain 3-4 backstabs without stopping to wait for a stealth move to come back up.</font>So honestly, what's the deal? Why would someone want to take an assassin if they had one slot open and there was an assassin, a wizzie and a warlock all ready to go?<font color="#0000ff">You didnt mention necro in this one but I assume you give it as an option, personally I would take the necro if there was already an assassin, simply because they offer way more utility.</font><div></div><hr></blockquote><font color="#0000ff">Also dont forget casters are lazy dps, they can put someone on autofollow and still pump out obscene numbes - we have to work for our dps, especially most of it coming from positionals.</font></div>

[Dracor]

Good responses all!It was an honest question and like the replies. In single mob fights, I still have to work hard to be the top of the DPS chart over a wizzie, but I guess I should take the following factors in to account:1) I only rarely use poisons. Not because I don't want to but rather because they go down and I don't realize it until days later. Call it bad habit breeding bad habit.2) I'm not raiding the end of the game stuff at 55 yet. But that being as it is, I have noticed it becomes more and more easy to out DPS the mage classes on single fights. <div></div>I think overally though, my frustration is zone wide parses, not single mobs as much because I am very very in tune with my character and I parse all my data, constantly make changes to my setups, know what kind of damage the mobs do, etc. But when I do, mages , locks and necros come out ahead almost every time unless there is some extravagant reason why not.However, the aggro transfer argument is a pretty compelling argument too. I rarely need healed. I can usually unload and will only pull aggro when I *know* I am going to pull aggro. I am never ever like 'holy crap I just pulled aggro!'.Thanks for the responses!

[JohnDoe058]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> whytakemine wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#99ff33>The only change I would like to see is to nerf the nuke/root ability of many classes.  IMO no class should be able to solo a yellow named ^^^.  Yes, I'm calling for a nerf on my own toon (coercer).  Heck, just soloing a yellow ^^^ should be beyond the abilities of all but the strongest solo'ers.</FONT><BR><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Preach on, brotha!!  Even having a wiz as my main, i totally agree that root/nuke tactics are too powerful.  Still not as powerful as Coercer charm lol...</P> <P>Also, i agree with your other points.  You seem to have a good understanding of the balance here.</P> <P> </P> <P>Facedown wrote:</P> <HR> <P> <FONT color=#0000ff>Also dont forget casters are lazy dps, they can put someone on autofollow and still pump out obscene numbes - we have to work for our dps, especially most of it coming from positionals.</FONT><BR></P> <HR> <P>Um...I have to disagree here.</P> <P>1.  Have u ever grped/raided with a wiz who only parses 600 dps on 1 target?  I sure have, many times.  If they are lazy, and don't get cast order right, then their DPS sux monkey parts.</P> <P>2.  We also have to joust for optimal DPS.  Fusion, Ice Shield, and Firestorm are all close-range.  But i'll give up the fact that we don't usually have to get BEHIND the mob.</P> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Facedown]

<div><blockquote><hr>Crack Junkie wrote:<div></div> <blockquote><p>Facedown wrote:</p> <hr> <p> <font color="#0000ff">Also dont forget casters are lazy dps, they can put someone on autofollow and still pump out obscene numbes - we have to work for our dps, especially most of it coming from positionals.</font></p> <hr> <p>Um...I have to disagree here.</p> <p>1.  Have u ever grped/raided with a wiz who only parses 600 dps on 1 target?  I sure have, many times.  If they are lazy, and don't get cast order right, then their DPS sux monkey parts.</p> <p>2.  We also have to joust for optimal DPS.  Fusion, Ice Shield, and Firestorm are all close-range.  But i'll give up the fact that we don't usually have to get BEHIND the mob.</p> </blockquote><hr></blockquote>Never raided with a wizard that only did 600 dps, probably because they knew there was 1-2 other wizards sitting out willing to take their spot if they slacked off on cast order. Though yes I have grouped with a wizard who has only done 600 dps single target, but thats more of a bad player behind the character then the class being able to stand still and dps.(Im not counting fusion since its once a fight spell but ill give ya ice shield and firestorm) Thats only 2 spells out of your arsenal that requires you to joust, assassins have to joust every single CA except the 4 ranged ones (2 of those are 1 minute reuse).My point was that most caster dps classes dont have to run around the whole fight and make sure they stay behind the mob, also rarely does knockback effect their dps while 30-50% of my total damage is from autoattack thats not hitting for several seconds beacuse of knockback or a moving mob.</div>

[t0gar]

Personally i always outparse the wizzies... I'm not all mastered and i'm still using mostly labs gear, but the only classes that keep up with me on the parse are warlocks(multi-mob fights), conjurers(occasionally on multi-mob fights, but almost never single), and this 1 pesky swashy...(freakin rouges!) I usually end up top 1-3 DPS on the raid depending on how many afks i feel like taking and the zone. The guild is short on bards and brigands(never coming back from breaks /cry), but I dont think it'd effect other classes damage enough to pass me up on the parse. Yes assassins have to run around, position themselves, and joust... but what would be the fun in raiding if you can just press a button here and there? I'd have quit this game a long time ago if that was the case. And i think an assassin said they do more DPS on longer fights? Maybe it's just me, but the faster the fight the better... my auto-attack DPS just isn't enough to keep up with rouges and casters and our dots aren't anything to be proud of... <div></div>

[Ahlspiess]

<P>With the expansion I'm not sure where DPS stands. It's quite obvious that resistances need to be fixed or people wouldn't be wiping to AoE's from mobs with max resistances. I'm curious if that effects the mobs resistances as well.</P> <P> </P> <P>I think I'll sit back and see how things go before commenting.</P>

[eagle_eye66061]

<P>When raiding I always average between 1000 and 1500 DPS per fight, am usually in the top three  and at lease 15% of the time I'm number one on the parser.  Lets not forget that apply poison (although not much) helps increase the DPS of another toon as well. We also can debuff STR and poison resists which boost the overall DPS of the raid force. On top of all that we can transfer 26% hate at adept three and we also have several hate reducers which make drawing agro almost impossible.  If a toon is only concerned with being number one parser than personally I don't want them in the raid.  </P>

[Mr. Dawki]

<P>And i think an assassin said they do more DPS on longer fights?</P> <HR> One mob comes to mind with this statement <P>ALZID PRIME</P> <P>17min fight</P> <P>1300dps the whole time</P> <P>he healed over 70 times before he gave up the ghost</P> <P>highest dps ive ever done was on a single skarz centurion in labs, the one wanderer right after slavering alziz</P> <P>we took a bio break so i had all skills up</P> <P>3300 in a 37 sec fight</P> <P>i wish i had a screenshot of it</P>

[Facedown]

I never understood why people fight alzid first, I supose it would be a good way to test power management <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[EtoilePirate]

My own raiding experience backs up some of the above posts.1.) Auto-attack: if you're close enough to the mob, with good weapons and poison, you can be continuously generating a big pile of DPS even when you're out of power and cycling reuse timers.2.) Spell resists vs melee resists: A mob may sit there and laugh at you for casting heat and cold things at it, but even when the damage is severely mitigated, a dagger is a dagger.3.) Survivability: chain's not great, especially these days, but if you blow the AoE timing once and don't get out of the range in time, chances are you'll survive long enough to get it right 45 seconds later, where as your dress-wearers are flattened.The best raid, in 95% of cases, is going to be the well-balanced, well-arranged one.  You want some magic and some melee and you want the groups they're in to be well-designed and mutually supportive.Plus if you've got a really good debuffer along (read as: Brigand), melee damage on the mob = good.<div></div>

[Siclone]

<P>mmm this is odd, I no raid expert or anything, everytime I look at the raid DPS if there is an assassin in the raid, they are #1...if there are 2 assasins in the raid, they are #1 and #2 </P> <P>I joined a guild where the wiz was always #1, in every single encounter, I beat him.  And I dont even have raid weapons.</P> <P>Its where you raid the top of mobs your raid the make up of the raid and how you play. do you have masters do you use the best posion?  do you have your correct AA's? ect ect....do you use a good squence of attacks?</P> <P>A couple of times on Raids where I was not #1, a Necro is, I find them the best competition for dps.  </P> <P>but then again it does depend on alot of other factors .....they just seem to be in my favor</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>ohh I forgot to answer your question,,why would you pick an assassin over a wizzie type even if we where not doing as much dps?</P> <P>cause wizzie types are [Removed for Content],,,,come on in there silk little robes hiding in the back ground pulling there panties out of their crotch..:smileyvery-happy:  (jk you wizzies...sort of)</P><p>Message Edited by DaStone on <span class=date_text>11-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:12 PM</span>

[Computer MAn]

Done all the raids as an Assassin and there is no way we are subpar DPS. I can't honestly remember the last time I lost a zone parse to anyone outside of Lyceum which is just too many AE mobs for us to deal with.Assassin's are the top DPS right now I am usually in the tank group and win all the parses not to mention when I am in a DPS group.<div></div>

[whytakemine]

<div><blockquote><hr>EtoilePB wrote:The best raid, in 95% of cases, is going to be the well-balanced, well-arranged one.  You want some magic and some melee and you want the groups they're in to be well-designed and mutually supportive.<div></div><hr></blockquote>This is actually probably the best reason - who are the mages going to put their melee procs on if you're not there? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><blockquote><hr>EtoilePB wrote:Plus if you've got a really good debuffer along (read as: Brigand), melee damage on the mob = good.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Brigands debuff magic resistances more than melee, but in any case having a brigand or two along means everyone is doing better damage.</div>

[Mr. Dawki]

<P>I never understood why people fight alzid first, I supose it would be a good way to test power management</P> <HR> because we miss wasting time from eq1 <P>or we dont have the luxury of a mem-wipe form a coercer</P> <P>it works</P> <P>You know he is gona heal and it saves you from getting mad when he bugs and heals anyway after vyem dies</P>

[Facedown]

<blockquote><hr>Mr. Dawkins wrote:<div></div> <p>I never understood why people fight alzid first, I supose it would be a good way to test power management</p> <hr> because we miss wasting time from eq1 <p>or we dont have the luxury of a mem-wipe form a coercer</p> <p>it works</p> <p>You know he is gona heal and it saves you from getting mad when he bugs and heals anyway after vyem dies</p><hr></blockquote>We never used a chanter to mem wipe him, you can pull vyemm and alzid back up into the hall before his room and the 2 named before him and have a tank rescue prime and run him up the stairs, this breaks alzid but vyemm is on your main tank by now in the hallway. So alzid goes back into vyemms spot and vyemm is there for you to kill.Ive never seen him bug and heal after vyemm is dead, maybe we got lucky the 10+ times I was there to kill him?<div></div>

[Squigglle]

<DIV>I got a lvl 40 wizard and a lvl 23 ranger whos on betrayel to be a assasin.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Id have to say id bring the Wizard on smal raids but the assasin on big ones.</DIV> <DIV>why? well asasin do almsot as much dps as wizards, i think can out dps a wizard with average items, if the assasin got alot of fabled and good daggers. For like little raids like through permafrost id take the following:</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>SMALL GROUPS (Like for xping in permafrost)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>palidan</DIV> <DIV>wizard</DIV> <DIV>fury</DIV> <DIV>coerer</DIV> <DIV>assasin</DIV> <DIV>guardian</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>LARGE GROUPS (Like doing raids to kill epics and stuff like that)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Id take the following if i made a 20 person raid group:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2 Palidans (for the support and heals)</DIV> <DIV>1 Shadow Knight ( for support and extra dps)</DIV> <DIV>1 Druid (for heals and buffs)</DIV> <DIV>1 Shaman (for heals and buffs)</DIV> <DIV>1 Cleric (for heals and buffs)</DIV> <DIV>2 Wizards (for dps)</DIV> <DIV>1 Coerer (for dps mod and mana regen)</DIV> <DIV>2 Sumoners (for dps)</DIV> <DIV>1 Rogue (for debuffs and dps)</DIV> <DIV>2 Assasins (for dps)</DIV> <DIV>1 Warlock (for aoe dps)</DIV> <DIV>2 Bards ( for extra damage and buffs)</DIV> <DIV>1 Guardian ( to be main tank)</DIV> <DIV>1 brawler (for dps and they just awsome)</DIV> <DIV>1 berserker (for dps and help tanking)</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so ya wizards are good for raids but id pick scouts over them sence scouts can take a beating more if they accidently pull agro, and plus scouts have more usefull skills like pathfinding and they have good dps. and if they run out of power they always can do damage with there melee or ranged weapon.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Computer MAn]

<div><blockquote><hr>Squigglle wrote:<div></div> <div>I got a lvl 40 wizard and a lvl 23 ranger whos on betrayel to be a assasin.</div> <div> </div> <div>LARGE GROUPS (Like doing raids to kill epics and stuff like that)</div> <div> </div> <div>Id take the following if i made a 20 person raid group:</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>2 Palidans (for the support and heals)</div> <div>1 Shadow Knight ( for support and extra dps)</div> <div>1 Druid (for heals and buffs)</div> <div>1 Shaman (for heals and buffs)</div> <div>1 Cleric (for heals and buffs)</div> <div>2 Wizards (for dps)</div> <div>1 Coerer (for dps mod and mana regen)</div> <div>2 Sumoners (for dps)</div> <div>1 Rogue (for debuffs and dps)</div> <div>2 Assasins (for dps)</div> <div>1 Warlock (for aoe dps)</div> <div>2 Bards ( for extra damage and buffs)</div> <div>1 Guardian ( to be main tank)</div> <div>1 brawler (for dps and they just awsome)</div> <div>1 berserker (for dps and help tanking)</div> <div> <hr> </div> <div> </div><div>so ya wizards are good for raids but id pick scouts over them sence scouts can take a beating more if they accidently pull agro, and plus scouts have more usefull skills like pathfinding and they have good dps. and if they run out of power they always can do damage with there melee or ranged weapon.</div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>Scout's are generally better for long fights not because we can always do damage but because we never run out of power if we want to sacrifice a damage posion. Neither a scout nor a mage will take any hits from a rel epic and pathfinding is useless on raids. As for that raid setup its got to be one of the worst setups I have ever seen. We don't even have Paladin's in the guild and you only need 1 Crusader per guild mainly for Princes. Raids a little healer light should bring 1-2 more.</div>

[Graton]

<div><blockquote><hr>Dracorat wrote:In a raid environment, why would anyone take an assassin over a Wizard, Necro or Warlock?Whenever I parse out, it's the rare mob my assassin can beat DPS over those other classes. I have to basically keep my stuff AD3 or Master to compete even with an App4 wizard on the DPS chart. And if we have more than two or three mobs, forget it. We lose hands down.Vs all the other melee classes, I PWN the chart, but as an assassin, my purpose should be for DPS and DPS pretty much exclusively. It bothers me when even one mob is there I can end up losing on the DPS meter to a wizzie class.It has to be a really really long battle for me to really just PWN the DPS chart, but that rarely happens. Most of the time, if people start runnin  out of mana, the mob runs out of life in short order anyway.So honestly, what's the deal? Why would someone want to take an assassin if they had one slot open and there was an assassin, a wizzie and a warlock all ready to go?<div></div><hr></blockquote>because we do more damage than they do if grouped and played properly. in fact there are very very few encounters where i'm outparsed by anyone. large ae encounters are about it. necros can threaten zonewide sometimes but they are also much more likely to get aggro than us.your signature lists lvl 58 so it may be that the power curve is different at that lvl i'm not really certain as when i was lvl 58 things were very different, rangers were the kings of all and you couldn't walk 10 feet without tripping over a dozen of them.</div>

[Dracor]

When I posted this, I was actually about 48.In the last ten levels, the power curve really has moved. It's rare I get outparsed these days.My strength has increase 120 points since then and its been a huge difference. The gap on the parser is atrocious if its a single mob fight. Even versus other classes of the scout variety.But I also take my class seriously. Now that I am on the final stretch, I am also buying the masters of my skills as I can afford them.And the gap only increases.I just did a 5 person Sol-Eye run. My zonewide parse came out to be more than the other four people's added together. To be fair, one had almost no DPS as he was a dedicated healing class, but the other three people were a dirge, a wizard and a shadowknight. And all their damage combined when totalled zone-wide was about 680 DPS combined. Certain fights they peaked much higher, quite a few a bit lower.Mine came to 770.The kicker I think was the fact that we werent medding between fights. We just faught. It probably hit us in the DPS, but the wizard had to sit a fight out about every 3rd or 4th fight. I was able to go miniding to miniding without issue.So, while I was fretting before as I was in the upper 40s and lower 50s without seeing a light at the end of the DPS tunnel, I have recently found myself bathed in it.And it feels good. =)<div></div>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<P>The big thing now is str.</P> <P>If your being out parsed by an equally geard wizard (ie both in fabled with master combatart/spells)</P> <P>then you may want to check out his int vs your str/int.</P> <P> </P> <P>With eof its much easier for single stat classes (like wizard/warlocks) to increase their damage potential by boosting only one stat.</P> <P>While assasins require str to increase combat art damage AND int to increase poisin damage.</P> <P>Obviously higher STR up to a certain degree will be more beneficial than int.  I think some of you higher level fabled assasins should try to find that balance (is it 700 str and 300 int?)  (is it 600 str and 400 int?)  (is it 500 / 500?) and report back which one served the best balance with the new diminishing return curves.</P> <P>Hell for that matter get rangers/rogues involved in it too.</P>

[Computer MAn]

<div><blockquote><hr>Dracorat wrote:When I posted this, I was actually about 48.In the last ten levels, the power curve really has moved. It's rare I get outparsed these days.<hr></blockquote>Ah now it makes a lot of sense. You really start to shine once you get Concealment. Finishing Blow, Decap etc. </div>

[khufure]

<div><blockquote><hr>Computer MAn wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Dracorat wrote:When I posted this, I was actually about 48.In the last ten levels, the power curve really has moved. It's rare I get outparsed these days.<hr></blockquote>Ah now it makes a lot of sense. You really start to shine once you get Concealment. Finishing Blow, Decap etc. </div><hr></blockquote>Concealment (55?), Mark at 62 (M2 at 64), and finishing blow (5<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> were the biggest increases for me.</div>

[t0gar]

Anyone finding it increasingly difficult to outparse T7 warlocks? My guild's warlock does have more AA, but he is obliterating most everything now. A 40k dmg nuke...(i believe this may have been a god ability though)... and he's keeping up with me now on single targets mobs and blowing me away more than he was on multi-target ones. No significant change in gear or spells has occured, but i'm just worried the new combat changes are ganna have us falling back a bit on the parse in comparison. The swashy can outparse me sometimes on single mobs, the warlock can on some single and all multi, and the ranger is dangerously close to catching up and he's not even using the sarnak bow. I've only gotten about 10 AA at this point so I haven't had the liesure of finishing my bleeding line, but will this help me enough to not feel like a complete slacker? Do adornments really increase our DPS enough to keep up? I haven't had the money to go wasting on them(hoping price drops soon), but it's just silly how hard it is to be #1 on the parser now when i used to win by no less than 100dps on most fights where i'm now contending to even make the #3 slot. Any input would be helpful, mostly want to know... Is anyone else finding this to be true? Will finishing my bleeding line save my hide on DPS? Are adornments ganna add a couple hundred to the DPS? Another thing i find odd is that i was still easily #1 on the 2 EoF raids we've done(and the Labs before it was fixed), but fell behind when we did Labs the other night after the fix. Maybe it was just a screwy night, but the raid setup was great for my DPS so that wasn't to blame. <div></div>

[K'aldar]

<div><blockquote><hr>IllusiveThoughts wrote:<div></div> <p>The big thing now is str.</p> <p>If your being out parsed by an equally geard wizard (ie both in fabled with master combatart/spells)</p> <p>then you may want to check out his int vs your str/int.</p> <p>With eof its much easier for single stat classes (like wizard/warlocks) to increase their damage potential by boosting only one stat.</p> <p>While assasins require str to increase combat art damage AND int to increase poisin damage.</p> <p>Obviously higher STR up to a certain degree will be more beneficial than int.  I think some of you higher level fabled assasins should try to find that balance (is it 700 str and 300 int?)  (is it 600 str and 400 int?)  (is it 500 / 500?) and report back which one served the best balance with the new diminishing return curves.</p> <p>Hell for that matter get rangers/rogues involved in it too.</p><hr></blockquote>the balance that works for me so far is 650str/350 int.. but unless my group sucks i can get to a nice 750/450 combo.</div>

[Jayad]

<P>Warlocks seem to have improved some but I'm still ahead of ours.  (EOF is still new, though...)  Wizards seem to be kicking some butt. </P> <P>T0gar, hard to tell what is going on without more detail on your equipment, stats, & group setup. </P> <P>On individual fights I'll often parse #2 or #3 but zone-wide I'll still come in on top, only usually losing to our other assassin in guild.  If the temp buffs are up and it's a single mob I don't think anybody can do better, but I think the gap seems to have narrowed a lot with EOF. </P>

[Salat]

<P>YES Adornments help.  But Im not saying run out there and buy those expensive as heck T7 adornments.  Instead, I will tell you to run out and buy any adornment from T3 to T6.  The difference between the teirs of adornments is not that great.  T3 to T6 is also not expensive, as everyone is just leveling up on them, so you can get them cheap.  A T6 weapon adornment versus a T7 weapon adornment is only 40 less damage and 10 less heal on proc.  </P> <P>Now, heres why it really doesnt matter. You can overwrite any adornment on an item, at any time with a new adornment.  So right now, if you have none on, then get something on it.  Who cares if it isnt top line right off.  Something is alot better then nothing.  And like I said, the T3 to T6 are usually dirt cheap.  I picked up a T3 that was a little expensive for T3.  But it gave me on chest peice ((Which I still need to get a raid upgrade for)) +3 to all stats.  Doesnt sound to impressive, but thats 15 points I just added spread out to all my stats.  Well worth 30 gold in my mind.</P> <P>Now if you have what you feel will be final items that will never get upgraded, then yes, fork over for that final T7 adornment, or find a friend that can transmute T7 items.  Any level 70 crafter, can make the adornment for you, as long as you get someone to transmute all the items, which could take awhile to collect.  But its alot cheaper then buying a 16 plat adrnment.</P> <P>And go kill names.  If you were like me, and the AA system came out in KoS, I never really went back and killed all the names in DoF expansion.  I did last night, and made alot of AA xp.  I mentored down to a young freind, and we did Poet's Palace, Ancient's Table, Cazael's, Roost, Sanctorium, Hidden Cache and was planning on mentoring down to another freind and hitting all those T5 ones from years past.  As long as you mentor down, you will get first time AA kill named xp.  Also talk your guild into doing the old raid zones.  You can two group with level 70's, Court's, Gates, and Return To Poet's Palace.  Plus volunteer to help on a GodKIng raid, if they do it on your server.  Alot more AA right there, if you didnt do them for KoS AA xp.  And then add in Prismatic, which you will need to mentor down.  </P> <P>And by doing those old names, you can do two things with the loot.  Sell it and let the transmuters buy it and make some nice coin.  OR, get that friend whos a transmuter, to make the crafting stuff form it.  Get a crafter to use those parts to make you some decent adornments.  T6 legendary and Fabled adornments arent bad.  So its a win-win get AA and also adornments for revisting old content.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Salat on <span class=date_text>12-02-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:13 AM</span>

[khufure]

<div><blockquote><hr>Salat wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <p>YES Adornments help.  But Im not saying run out there and buy those expensive as heck T7 adornments.  Instead, I will tell you to run out and buy any adornment from T3 to T6.  The difference between the teirs of adornments is not that great.  T3 to T6 is also not expensive, as everyone is just leveling up on them, so you can get them cheap.  A T6 weapon adornment versus a T7 weapon adornment is only 40 less damage and 10 less heal on proc.  </p> <p>Now, heres why it really doesnt matter. You can overwrite any adornment on an item, at any time with a new adornment.  So right now, if you have none on, then get something on it.  Who cares if it isnt top line right off.  Something is alot better then nothing.  And like I said, the T3 to T6 are usually dirt cheap.  I picked up a T3 that was a little expensive for T3.  But it gave me on chest peice ((Which I still need to get a raid upgrade for)) +3 to all stats.  Doesnt sound to impressive, but thats 15 points I just added spread out to all my stats.  Well worth 30 gold in my mind.</p> <p>Now if you have what you feel will be final items that will never get upgraded, then yes, fork over for that final T7 adornment, or find a friend that can transmute T7 items.  Any level 70 crafter, can make the adornment for you, as long as you get someone to transmute all the items, which could take awhile to collect.  But its alot cheaper then buying a 16 plat adrnment.</p> <p>And go kill names.  If you were like me, and the AA system came out in KoS, I never really went back and killed all the names in DoF expansion.  I did last night, and made alot of AA xp.  I mentored down to a young freind, and we did Poet's Palace, Ancient's Table, Cazael's, Roost, Sanctorium, Hidden Cache and was planning on mentoring down to another freind and hitting all those T5 ones from years past.  As long as you mentor down, you will get first time AA kill named xp.  Also talk your guild into doing the old raid zones.  You can two group with level 70's, Court's, Gates, and Return To Poet's Palace.  Plus volunteer to help on a GodKIng raid, if they do it on your server.  Alot more AA right there, if you didnt do them for KoS AA xp.  And then add in Prismatic, which you will need to mentor down.  </p> <p>And by doing those old names, you can do two things with the loot.  Sell it and let the transmuters buy it and make some nice coin.  OR, get that friend whos a transmuter, to make the crafting stuff form it.  Get a crafter to use those parts to make you some decent adornments.  T6 legendary and Fabled adornments arent bad.  So its a win-win get AA and also adornments for revisting old content.</p> <p>Message Edited by Salat on <span class="date_text">12-02-2006</span> <span class="time_text">06:13 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Some tips:1.) The < T7 adornments have a bug where they could reverse your stats instead of increasing them.2.) The weapon proc adornments seem to add about .2-.5% dps zone each.3.) The +10%dps items - and you can get 3 if you think about it - will be the best upgrades along with +stats.  They cost 24 plat on my server and I'm poor.  Good luck getting them, I know I'll probably have to sell crack to the wood elves again to get mine.4.) + piercing (or +slashing if that is what you use) are now critical.It's not your imagination that other people are catching up.  EOF is a balancing act.  We are still top 5, and generally going to be top 1-2.  Sorcerer and summoner are the biggest rivals, not necesssarily in that order.</div>