Why not leather only?

[pkeaf]

<DIV>Considering that other DPS classes take an armor penalty, why do scouts (more specifically assassins) get to wear chain?  Shouldn't assassins be "sneaking" around in leather?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What is the reasoning?</DIV>

[BaruMonk]

The reasoning: We do less damage than mages, so mages get hit harder than us.

[BaruMonk]

<blockquote><hr>BaruMonkey wrote:The reasoning: We do less damage than mages, so mages get hit harder than us.<hr></blockquote>Disclaimer: I said that this was the reasoning, not that this was true in practice, so please don't start posting your DPS parses.

[Lord Montague]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BaruMonkey wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BaruMonkey wrote:<BR>The reasoning: We do less damage than mages, so mages get hit harder than us.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Disclaimer: I said that this was the reasoning, not that this was true in practice, so please don't start posting your DPS parses.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>LOL...as I don't parse, then that's not an issue.  Although I certainly know what you mean about theory vs. practice.</P> <P>Seems to be a tradeoff, actually, leather vs. chain.  There are many leather pieces out there that give better Strength and Agility than chain will give you (two basic stats that are core to an assassin).  Avoidance is better and you can do more damage, but at the tradeoff of mitigation of course - at which point AE's could become more of an issue if you're not wearing chain.  To me it's a matter of both playstyle and tastes (and if you want armor that looks good, very few chain pieces will do it).</P>

[Crychtonn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BaruMonkey wrote:<BR>The reasoning: We do less damage than mages, so mages get hit harder than us.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I disagree.</P> <P>Predators have chain armor because they have to fight toe to toe with mobs.  Mages get roots and stuns to protect themselves from mobs.</P>

[Mastera]

In terms of Assassins on PvP servers...it really doesn't matter.  Our big hitting damage is usually dealt in the beginning on the fight, you have to get in a reasonable amount of stealth'd attacks, before the PC gains grounds to counter-attack.If they're not under half hps...it really isn't an option to stick around and take a beating.  It basically becomes a ranged game until a melee opportunity opens up.In PvE...the extra mit may have saved me a couple times.  But I dunno...still seems like we drop pretty hard if something gets a hold of us.<div></div>

[evilpants]

<P>Toe to toe, exactly. We cant stand out of AE range and still put up big numbers like casters can. At least from the Assassin standpoint we have one stun and a single root (which lasts all of 1.5 secs imo, barely enough to get off a ranged shot of which we have one that doesnt require position) and our stun got shortened so its not as effective as it once was. Also, mages are burst DPS, we have a few bursts of our own but we are consistantly hacking away at mobs while casters stand back and decide which bomb to drop next. Chain isnt a huge advantage over leather but its an improvement and if you're putting up the kind of numbers DPS wise that we do you're gonna pull aggro from time to time and the extra mit saves lives. OP is just attacking classes they havent the skill to even begin to comprehend let alone play effectively. Anyone who has actually seen or worn a coat of chain can tell you that it doesnt bang and rattle around and with the proper padding beneath is virtually soundless. With glowing swords and casters flinging spells is it not possible that someone can stealth around with chain armor on? Dont hide, wheres your sig OP?</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Haephestus/ 64 Assassin/ Guk</P><p>Message Edited by evilpants on <span class=date_text>06-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:26 AM</span>

[BaruMonk]

<blockquote><hr>Crychtonn wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BaruMonkey wrote:<BR>The reasoning: We do less damage than mages, so mages get hit harder than us.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I disagree.</P> <P>Predators have chain armor because they have to fight toe to toe with mobs.  Mages get roots and stuns to protect themselves from mobs.</P><hr></blockquote>Good point, I hadn't thought of it that way. Makes more sense than what I thought.

[LoreLady]

If we had leather only - wouldent bother me, when you move to chain to leather your avoidance gets a large boost. And here is the reasoning behind it. Mages have controll spells, scouts dont. Scouts require melee to do the damage, all casters have roots, high snares, longterm stuns, stifles etc. Where casters take bigger hits when they get hit, they can hold it back for alot longer. Scouts have a lessened ability to kite mobs, but we are still going to take those hits.

[Donte]

<DIV>Thought:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Would leather potentially be better than chain for a PVP assassin?  My reasoning behind it being that having the better avoidance could help with stealth attacks as our opponent may miss us more breaking stealth less?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ponder that one</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Tamo]

<DIV>Other classes take armor penalties?!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't see many Guardians running around muttering to themselves "If only a I had a robe instead of this [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] plate armor! Then, I would truly be uber."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(Well except for when it comes time to repair said armor. :smileywink: )</DIV>

[pkeaf]

<P>Guardians?  They aren't a DPS class.</P> <P> </P> <P>So using the reasoning given here, Rangers should be nerfed and not allowed to wear chain correct?  They do not need to stand toe to toe mobs.  </P> <P>IMO no scout class should be wearing chain, especially assassins.  It is completely inappropriate for a "scout" and overpowers the class.   Either a DPS or armor reduction is long overdue.</P>

[evilpants]

<P>So now we get to the meat and potatoes of this arguement. Typical whiner type calling for nerfs "because they do more DPS than me" or "why do they get to do that when I cant?".  Each class has its ups and downs, you take the good with the bad. As an Assassin I'm a terrible solo class, in the same DPS Tier a Mage can solo all day long by  Root / Nuke / Nuke / Root / Nuke / Nuke / Root / Nuke / Root broken / Stun / Root / Nuke / Nuke etc. To me its a fair trade, I get chain, Mage gets roots and stuns. My armor is my protection from a mob just as a Mages roots and stuns are his protection. You can make the same whiny arguements for a few of the other classes too. If your Mage is getting clobbered because of his DPS OP then try managing your tactics  instead of whining about other DPS classes getting stronger armor than you. I have to manage my tactics or I get the same result as you (I just last longer). You and all the other sniveling whiners are what kills games, you cry and cry till a nerf comes then you move on to find someone else to draw attention to. Yet, you are the first ones to scream and complain when it's your class getting nerfed. You wont stop till everyone is running around whacking rats with a sharpened stick with no variations on speed, power, graphics, sound, keystrokes etc. Pathetic, simply pathetic. 'Nuff said.</P> <P> </P> <P>Haephestus / 64 Assassin / Guk </P>

[ranma5]

Pkeafer:  your argument is tired, it's been made many times before, and the devs have shown that they don't agree with it, via LU's.  Besides, if you want to [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] about rangers, there's another forum for that.  This is the assassin forum.  I have a distinct feeling that you're gonna next say that all mages should do more damage than all scouts regardless of circumstance.  November 2004 wants its thread back, thanks.<div></div>

[pkeaf]

<DIV>I don't care about casters DPS at this point, I think they are fine where they are.  In fact, my main is a cleric.  My point is that classes that specialize in one particular area usually get hit in another.   Assassins seem to be the exception to this rule.  Their trade off is considerably less than others.  No wonder so many people play them.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The devs can disagree with me all they want.  Lord knows they screwed up enough things in this game.  I am expressing MY opinion.   <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Sebhan]

<P>I was JUST pondering this while eating my BBQ (southern style).  Anyway,  I was wondering if, with the super agility we get, could it be beneficial to wear leather at all?  I don't want to get into the "should" arguement because it's irrelevant.  Fact is we wear chain and I seriously doubt that devs would EVER change that, it would cause mass upsettedness....so...</P> <P>How high avoidence could we get?  I know my fury has around ~30% and he takes a beating in melee, but he has the heals.  My bruiser has over 60% and he rarely gets hit, but when he does it hurts and he has that short timer heal to keep the health decent.</P> <P>Without a heal, I would guess we would need over 70% to maintain melee dps and not drop like a rock health wise.  I am not sure why, but my brigand takes damage way better on mobs then my assassin even with double the agi, I think my stance as a brig gets some mitigation can't rember.</P> <P>I am wondering if we wore leather only how high avoid could we get?  I am considering making some leather tonight and trying it out.  </P> <P>I personally think we have chain because: 1) all other scouts get it, so just no reason not too, 2) we potentially could draw aggro faster then other scouts so we need it for that (like clerics need plate and mystics need chain, but druids don't cause of hot healing), 3) I didn't design the assassin so it wasn't my call, hence we got what was intented <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P>Edit:  About the "hit in another area" comment, I think our tradeoff is that we require the most prereq's to fight (stealth and position) and we have long timers.  Often fights for me are either 1) over with one shot or, 2) not over and then grinding the mob down waiting on a timer.  So chain armor might be needed for those periods of down timers or when we have more then 1 mob on us, which is most of the time in my experience.  Most of the time in a group I could get by with no armor on because I am never getting hit, so I don't think it matters at that point.</P><p>Message Edited by Sebhan on <span class=date_text>06-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:59 AM</span>

[ranma5]

If the question is why do assassins get chain armor and do decent damage, the answer is somewhere in the top half of this thread.And yeah, a lot of us opt to wear leather anyway.  Usually not raiders though.<div></div>

[evilpants]

<P>So you'd be fine if Sony decided that Clerics couldnt wear plate and could only wear Chain or even Leather or Cloth? You'd get owned several times over because healing grabs alot of aggro too hence the plate wearing Clerics.  You dont play a scout and if you do its a low level alt so it doesnt bother you if scouts get jacked outta their chain. I wear the chain for the extra Mit so that if my aggro gets out of hand I dont get one shotted. The healer isnt there to be healing me, they are there to keep the tank up. Put your scouts in leather and that makes it alot harder on the healers because they now have 2 people to worry about healing instead of one. I'm exagerating a bit here but you get my point. Why cry foul over a couple hundered points of Mit? I mean, you're not a scout so whats it to you if we wear chain or not? I dont whine when I have to dodge AE spells and still try to crank out the DPS because it my job. Play your own role to its fullest and leave everyone else alone. Stand out of AE range and heal/nuke while I do my job and everyone is happy. If it continues to plague you then go back to WoW, oh wait, their Priest/Cleric classes can only wear cloth but you get your way because Rogues can only wear leather. 'Nuff said.</P> <P> </P> <P>Haephestus/ 64 Assassin/ Guk</P>

[Hadanelith]

<P> </P> <P>Just to let you know, I'm a level 70 Assassin who wears only a single piece of Leather... and there is a piece of Chain that simply refuses to drop in Labratory of Lord Vyemm that would have better stats than the leather.</P> <P>I'm a pretty-much full-Fabled raiding Assassin, and as far as a "tradeoff"... it becomes less noticeable as you level. In my pre-50's I commonly wore Leather rather than Chain for better stats, but there've been a few Combat / Armor revamps since then.</P> <P>With full Chain armor and an ADP3 Defensive stance, I sit at just under 3k mit, 5600 HP, and 60.6% Avoidance while dual-wielding. I've never bothered messing with a Shield and 1h weapon for soloing, or my Avoidance could probably be 65%. Add on that the 1-2% upgrade that a Master Defensive Stance would probably add and you're pretty well-set for soloing.</P> <P>The "Leather Debate" for Scouts on whole has been raging since at least D&D 2.0, if not longer. When it comes down to it, yes, leather (in the real world) would be quieter... but we play in a fantasy world, where all the more explanation you need on "why you can sneak just as well in chain" comes down to two things:</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>1) Magic chainmail. Say no more.</P> <P>2) We have crazy skillz.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>-Hadanelith Raswrolski, 70 Assassin of Kithicor</P>

[Jounar]

<DIV>We get to wear chain due to the fact our high dps can pull aggro and on a raid mob that means you go splat very quickly <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I refuse to wear anything bar chain and with off stance im at 3200 ish mit.</DIV>

[whytakemine]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>pkeafer wrote:<div></div><div>I don't care about casters DPS at this point, I think they are fine where they are.  In fact, my main is a cleric.  My point is that classes that specialize in one particular area usually get hit in another.   Assassins seem to be the exception to this rule.  Their trade off is considerably less than others.  No wonder so many people play them. </div><div>  </div><hr></blockquote>Did a gamewide search on eq2census.com of all players 60-70:Wizard       5049Templar     4104Guardian    3864Conjuror     3812Paladin       3772Fury            3611Berserker    3531Necromancer 3305Ranger      3261Warlock     2488Monk          2430Warden      2260SK              2210Mystic         2096Assassin    1948Inquisitor    1937Swashie     1677Bruiser       1659Dirge          1583Illusionist    1514Defiler         1371Troubador   1340Brigand       1239Coercer      1028Yep, sure are a lot of assassins.  I think you're being intentionally obtuse, but I will point out what has already been said before and maybe you'll read and understand it this time. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Predators lack control spells, so if a mob attacks us all we have to protect ourselves is somewhat better armor than sorcerors.  It doesn't matter if a ranger normally attacks from a distance, if a mob turns on him he has very limited ways to keep his distance.  Assassins are even worse off.  This is also why predators are among the worst (probably are the worst) at solo'ing hard content.  Not to mention the positional nature of our attacks - without someone else holding the mobs attention our DPS goes to crap.I'd also like to hear why you think heavier armor is such an advantage anyway.  Grouping and raiding, if I draw aggro it means I screwed up.  I'm not saying it doesn't help - when the MT goes down in a group, I'm usually next in line and if I can stay on my feet long enough for the healer to get the tank back up we might avoid a wipe.  It's also nice to have the extra mit against melee AoE's.  But if the dev's announced tomorrow that scouts couldn't wear more than leather, I'd shrug my shoulders and keep playing.  Not that big a deal, unless you solo a lot.Maybe you should try playing a class before you pass judgement on it.  If everyone followed that simple rule of thumb, the forums would be a very quiet place...</div>

[Dragonsviperz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> whytakemine wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> pkeafer wrote:<BR> <DIV>I don't care about casters DPS at this point, I think they are fine where they are.  In fact, my main is a cleric.  My point is that classes that specialize in one particular area usually get hit in another.   Assassins seem to be the exception to this rule.  Their trade off is considerably less than others.  No wonder so many people play them. </DIV> <DIV>  <BR></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Did a gamewide search on eq2census.com of all players 60-70:<BR><BR>Wizard       5049<BR>Templar     4104<BR>Guardian    3864<BR>Conjuror     3812<BR>Paladin       3772<BR>Fury            3611<BR>Berserker    3531<BR>Necromancer 3305<BR>Ranger      3261<BR>Warlock     2488<BR>Monk          2430<BR>Warden      2260<BR>SK              2210<BR>Mystic         2096<BR>Assassin    1948<BR>Inquisitor    1937<BR>Swashie     1677<BR>Bruiser       1659<BR>Dirge          1583<BR>Illusionist    1514<BR>Defiler         1371<BR>Troubador   1340<BR>Brigand       1239<BR>Coercer      1028<BR><BR>Yep, sure are a lot of assassins.  I think you're being intentionally obtuse, but I will point out what has already been said before and maybe you'll read and understand it this time. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>Predators lack control spells, so if a mob attacks us all we have to protect ourselves is somewhat better armor than sorcerors.  It doesn't matter if a ranger normally attacks from a distance, if a mob turns on him he has very limited ways to keep his distance.  Assassins are even worse off.  This is also why predators are among the worst (probably are the worst) at solo'ing hard content.  Not to mention the positional nature of our attacks - without someone else holding the mobs attention our DPS goes to crap.<BR><BR>I'd also like to hear why you think heavier armor is such an advantage anyway.  Grouping and raiding, if I draw aggro it means I screwed up.  I'm not saying it doesn't help - when the MT goes down in a group, I'm usually next in line and if I can stay on my feet long enough for the healer to get the tank back up we might avoid a wipe.  It's also nice to have the extra mit against melee AoE's.  But if the dev's announced tomorrow that scouts couldn't wear more than leather, I'd shrug my shoulders and keep playing.  Not that big a deal, unless you solo a lot.<BR><BR>Maybe you should try playing a class before you pass judgement on it.  If everyone followed that simple rule of thumb, the forums would be a very quiet place...<BR><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>[Removed for Content] that census seems off...more rangers then assassins?</P> <P>And to elaborate on chain. Pulling aggro, if that ever happens, chain has more mitigation then leather. You get aggro on a 74 x4, and you are trying to live a few seconds long, chain will help because of the higher mitigation.<BR></P>

[whytakemine]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dragonsviperz wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>[Removed for Content] that census seems off...more rangers then assassins?</P> <P>And to elaborate on chain. Pulling aggro, if that ever happens, chain has more mitigation then leather. You get aggro on a 74 x4, and you are trying to live a few seconds long, chain will help because of the higher mitigation.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I think it's a symptom of more people being based out of qeynos.  You notice all of the evil classes are less popular than their good counterparts.  Can't understand it myself - traveling around qeynos is much more painful than freeport IMO.  </P> <P>Yes, the higher mit does help in some circumstances.  I'm not saying it's not an advantage, just that it doesn't seem like that big a deal to me.  If I pull aggro it means I'm not doing my job right anyway (it does happen), and on a 74x4 named I'm almost certainly going to be toast before the tank gets it back regardless of whether I'm wearing leather or chain. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>So on trash mobs, yeah it might save my bacon.  But who cares on trash mobs? <BR></P>