CAN SOE ever ever fix the tier of DPS

[judged_one]

<div>Take AA into account, once again we are screwed. on DPS</div><div> </div><div>DOUBLE ATTACK = 2 poison procs</div><div>there for Swashy and Brigand can out DPS us</div><div> </div><div>Conj and Necro our DPS All T1</div><div> </div><div>Can you guys get it right for GODSAKE.</div><div> </div><div>T1 > T2 > T3</div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Kaiser Sigma]

<div></div><p>The rogues on my guild have had a considerable boost on their dps thanks to AAs, about 250dps, now they are always on the 700-900 range sometimes even 1k whereas before they were on the 450-700 dps.</p><p>However, when there is no jousting involved, my dps is consistantly on the 1.1k mark without using Decapitate. They are close to our dps but they aren't matching it.</p><p>Brawlers on the other hand need a revision though, their dps is a bit on the sky with AAs for an utility tank class.</p>

[Demonskill]

agree with the previous poster. Brawlers are doing way too much DPS consider they can tank and group buff. I feel sad when the brawlers do more dps than the wizzy and warlock

[Hiro]

well its situational, when there jousting they don't come anywhere close<div></div>

[Demonskill]

in raid situation, i do 1k-1.3k DPS, but the brusier do 700-900 constantly, using lesser power than me. I don't want a tier 3 DPS to be behind my back. Brigand/Swash doing that is ok, but not brawler plz.Does anyone remember they can block from behind too? hate fighting those mobs.

[judged_one]

Our Swashy is doing 1.2k-1.5kI can hit around 1k+ usually.Here is why, he uses a procing weapon + poison. With the double hit AA, he is basically procing twice as much.Similar problem with Rangers on t6.Our Conjuror and Necro is hitting 1k + consistenly.Once again SOE continues to put other tiers above tier1 with bad planning and poor testing.Instead of having fair AA, Pred are stuck with some pretty usless AA. Like reduce casting speed by 33% on 2 of our CA, wow big freaking deal.if Dcep does 15k / 15 min is 16.7 DPS vs 15k / 10.5 min is 23.8 WOW with 8 CA point I can increase my DPS by 4.1.oh dont forget Enviscerate. Our DPS are increased by ... WOW less then 20Basically all our ending AA sucks.<p>Message Edited by judged_one on <span class="date_text">04-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:57 PM</span></p>

[Graton]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>judged_one wrote:<div>Take AA into account, once again we are screwed. on DPS</div><div> </div><div>DOUBLE ATTACK = 2 poison procs</div><div>there for Swashy and Brigand can out DPS us</div><div> </div><div>Conj and Necro our DPS All T1</div><div> </div><div>Can you guys get it right for GODSAKE.</div><div> </div><div>T1 > T2 > T3</div><div> </div><div> </div><hr></blockquote>there will always be occasions where it's not t1 > t2 > t3 and if you actually go back and read the much quoted post about the tiers it even indicated that classes that focus on offensive skills could bump up their dmg and break the 'rules' of the tiers and that gear would also factor in. it should also be pointed out that the tiers came out before the AA system so one should expect that a t2 class with all offensive aa's and 50 points spent could beat a t1 class that had either fewer aa's or put their aa's towards something other than dmg.the summoner issue is well known and they are bringing their dmg down in lu 22 from everything i hear. there are occasions where their dps (necros in particular) is quite spectacular. so much so that once has to imagine it wasn't intended like ranger proc dps pre kos. that said i think for the most part dps seems pretty reasonable right now from the raiding  i've done it looks like the following1. predators / summoners (soon to change it seems) - 2. sorcerers / rogues - 3. brawlers / zerker / bards - 4. chanters  / guardian - 5. priests (i'm sure certain priests could do some dmg but during raids they are healing)that isn't exactly what was quoted but it's not entirely off either. it also really depends on the fight. certain fights favor one class over another depending on resists / ae's and the like.</span></div>

[Demonskill]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Graton wrote:<BR> <DIV><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> judged_one wrote:<BR> <DIV>Take AA into account, once again we are screwed. on DPS</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>DOUBLE ATTACK = 2 poison procs</DIV> <DIV>there for Swashy and Brigand can out DPS us</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Conj and Necro our DPS All T1</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can you guys get it right for GODSAKE.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>T1 > T2 > T3</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>there will always be occasions where it's not t1 > t2 > t3 and if you actually go back and read the much quoted post about the tiers it even indicated that classes that focus on offensive skills could bump up their dmg and break the 'rules' of the tiers and that gear would also factor in. it should also be pointed out that the tiers came out before the AA system so one should expect that a t2 class with all offensive aa's and 50 points spent could beat a t1 class that had either fewer aa's or put their aa's towards something other than dmg.<BR><BR>the summoner issue is well known and they are bringing their dmg down in lu 22 from everything i hear. there are occasions where their dps (necros in particular) is quite spectacular. so much so that once has to imagine it wasn't intended like ranger proc dps pre kos. that said i think for the most part dps seems pretty reasonable right now from the raiding  i've done it looks like the following<BR><BR>1. predators / summoners (soon to change it seems) - 2. sorcerers / rogues - 3. brawlers / zerker / bards - 4. chanters  / guardian - 5. priests (i'm sure certain priests could do some dmg but during raids they are healing)<BR><BR>that isn't exactly what was quoted but it's not entirely off either. it also really depends on the fight. certain fights favor one class over another depending on resists / ae's and the like.<BR></SPAN></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>a brawler is doing more than wizy/warlock btw, the list is VERY off btw. I'd see wizzy/warlock are standing in t3 more than t2 that u've stated</DIV></DIV>

[LoreLady]

All I know is I usually do 1/4 more dps than other rangers - and brawlers are close to my dps, many rouges can lap my dps 1/2 the time. And, I can barely beat a summoners pet, and  assassins usually does about 15-30% more damage than me(although there are some I know I outdamage)? I am also finding myself outdamaing wizards 70% of the time.So if I am usually doing 1/4 damage than other rangers around me? Whats this telling me on sony's thinking and decission making?

[Demonskill]

<blockquote><hr>LoreLady wrote:All I know is I usually do 1/4 more dps than other rangers - and brawlers are close to my dps, many rouges can lap my dps 1/2 the time. And, I can barely beat a summoners pet, and  assassins usually does about 15-30% more damage than me(although there are some I know I outdamage)? I am also finding myself outdamaing wizards 70% of the time.So if I am usually doing 1/4 damage than other rangers around me? Whats this telling me on sony's thinking and decission making? <hr></blockquote>Is this like a puzzle solving question? what class are you?

[LoreLady]

Lol! - ranger <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Demonskill]

still don't get what ur saying, maybe im just bad at Algebra

[LoreLady]

Lol - i'll try and rephrase it.. Alot of the time I post when I am half awake after a midnight shift <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I am a rangerI outdamage wizards 70% of the time, and usually by about 30-40%Assassins outdamage me  by 20-30%Necros outdamage me by 30-40%I outdamage monks by 20%I outdamage rouges by 30-15%These are rough estimates from my parser from the typical group. - All I am saying is that the tiering system is all out of whack.

[Graton]

<div><blockquote><hr>LoreLady wrote:Lol - i'll try and rephrase it.. Alot of the time I post when I am half awake after a midnight shift <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I am a rangerI outdamage wizards 70% of the time, and usually by about 30-40%Assassins outdamage me  by 20-30%Necros outdamage me by 30-40%I outdamage monks by 20%I outdamage rouges by 30-15%These are rough estimates from my parser from the typical group. - All I am saying is that the tiering system is all out of whack.<hr></blockquote>ok, take out that summoners have such oustanding dps and sorcerers are underpowered and the tree doesn't seem that borked really. it looks likesummoners (outdmg you by 30 to 40)assassins (outdmg you by 20 to 30 %)rangers (you)rogues ( 85% of you)monks ( 80% of you)sorcerers ( 70% of you)it's kind of like that game where they ask you to make a whole new shape by only moving two matchsticks. if you move summoners with rogues and sorceres with predators it would basically match the outlined tiers would it not?as for the ranger vs assassin thing. i think the 20 to 30% number you give is exagerrated. i would agree that absent aoe affects, assassins have more dmg potential than rangers. however, in a raiding situation this is not the norm. most raid mobs either have an aoe that is mean enough to require a joust or that at least requires the swapping out of dmg gear for resist gear. i'd say it's more like ...non ae fightassassin over ranger by 20 to 30%joust fightranger over assassin by 20 to 30%resist fightdepends on assassin group make up, in most cases str suffers and they pull about even with rangers, maybe 5 to 10% ahead. if you're grouped with a berserker, troubadour and mystic or somesuch then it can be like a non ae fight and assassins pull well ahead. (20 to 30%)given that the majority of raid fights are either joust situations or resist fights, while i agree that assassins have more dmg potential than rangers, i don't think it's quite as severe as you are portraying or that dmg tiers are 'all out of whack'. i honestly think you have two serious oddities dps-wise right now.1. summoners are tier 1 dps2. sorcerers are underpoweredof the two, personally i think 2 is the one i'd like to see fixed first. lu 22 has passed and the doom & gloom predicted for summoners did not happen based on the LoA raid I was on last night. summoners dps is still outstanding which is fine by me given that my guild has 3 that play regularly. sorcerers on the other hand are simply not one of the top four classes dps wise except for short large aoe encounters where despite doing very well they can still play 2nd fiddle to berserkers.these sorts of fights though are really fairly trivial and i find they are more a novelty than anything. it's fun to see numbers like 2700 dps but it all it means is that encounter took 8 seconds as opposed to 16.</div>

[Dragonsviperz]

I didn't read all of this post but the first line did [Removed for Content] me off...rogues cannot outdps us. My swashy comes close but he can't...stop whining about everything that SoE screws up because they screw up almost everything. I'm happy with my dps and i'm fine with my dps at avg of 1400-1800 and not even at 50AA. I'll read more on this post then repost my other thoughts.

[Dragonsviperz]

<P>OK read more...it usually goes necro(can't really tell names his pet something else), me, swashy, bruiser, warlock(him and bruiser change off every so often), brigs, others...</P> <P>Yea our AA line at the end does suck and needs an improvement, it should affect our ranged attacks, both AE's, and anything that is a 1mins and up. Thats all i really have to say, if you don't believe what i say dps wise i can show you some of my ACT parses, the best zone to parse imo is Lycuem because of the mobs in there.</P>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Demonskiller wrote:<BR>agree with the previous poster. Brawlers are doing way too much DPS consider they can tank and group buff. I feel sad when the brawlers do more dps than the wizzy and warlock<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Not true , do your research before posting biased info like this please , i will list the group buffs we provide :-</P> <P> </P> <P>1) Dps Buff</P> <P>2) Dps Buffs</P> <P>3) ermm theres the DPS buff ? have i mentioned that ??? oh ok</P> <P>Yes and thats it :smileyvery-happy: yes we can tank as we are supposed to but the difference is that we use dps to hold aggro not our taunts so we need to do the extra damage , a raid buffed brawler with the STR/INT aa line can get 1k dps but then they are designed to give out maximum dps not built to tank.  You think 1k dps is a lot on a raid when a guardian can hit 800-900 in the same fight and they have no dps <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </P> <P>And we cannot touch warlocks dps thats plain silly i would love it if we could but hey not gonna happen </P><p>Message Edited by DarkMirrax on <span class=date_text>04-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:54 PM</span>

[Hadanelith]

<DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Actually, you're forgetting to include the 15% damage increase on Perfectionist.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The bonus to Decapitate does nothing more than feed our bragging rights... in all reality, the major gain is from the boost it gives Killing Blade.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't have the exact numbers on hand, but Killing Blade MST1 without Perfectionist gives approximately 30 DPS over it's duration (assuming max hit without debuffs and without crits. IE, "maximum posted damage" or MPD).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, apply a reduction of 1 minute of cast time and 15% damage increase, and suddenly the MPD of Killing blade, over its recast ("duration") comes out to around 57. That's almost double its original DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you do the same with Decapitate... Mine has an MPD of 15700-ish with 419 STR, at MST1, and with Perfectionist. 15,700 / 600 (seconds) = 26.17 DPS</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, reverse-math the damage: (15,700 / 115) x 100 = 13,652 MPD at MST1 w/o Perfectionist. 13,652 / 900 (seconds) = 15.17 DPS</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Erego, on a damage-over-duration basis, Killing Blade gets a more significant increase (approximately 190% DPS of original opposed to Decap's roughly 160% DPS of original). However, given the fact that this is being calculated on the most pure of statistical basis, the effective increase of DPS through Decap is actually much greater, in that allows us to attain our MAX DPS literally 33% more often. If you apply the increase in damage to a pseudo-standard 3 minute raid battle, it comes out more like this:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>13,652 / 180 = 75.84 DPS < 15,700 / 180 = 87.22 DPS. This of course is precisely a 15% increase as per Perfectionist description, but you can get this boost 33% more often than you could previously use Decapitate. On the whole of our DPS it's not that great an increase, but it's pretty nice considering this effectively gives you a 5% DPS boost to this ability over all time. (15% more damage 33% more often = 5% net ability DPS gain). And while the net ability DPS gain on Killing Blade over its duration is is the same 5%, given the fact its usable 5x more often than Decap, it's effectively a 25% boost to Killing Blade.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When you really examine how Perfectionist increases your total damage over time, it's a pretty nice ability.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Hadanelith Raswrolski, 70 Assassin of Kithicor</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PS: To all my Assassin brethren,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hope to make a fairly comprehensive post of how STR and INT lines affect our total DPS output over time within the next month. It will be math intensive, and I expect to make mistakes, but I'm hoping everyone in the community will contribute to this upcoming thread to make it as accurate as possible. Essentially, I'll be using a DPH (yes, Damage Per Hour) model... and this will be subdivided with another anagram, the Essential Damage Interval (EDI). My current model for the EDI uses Decapitate (our longest recast ability) as the Interval base in order to comprehensively examine the full effects of Perfectionist and the STR line. I'd get it out within the next 2 weeks but I have college finals coming up within a week &gt<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I'm willing to make calculations based on the STA and WIS lines as well, although the latter does very little for damage and quite a bit for aggro management. The AGI line, from what I've examined, has little impact on we Assassins but greater implications for our Ranger breathren. For now, I'm limiting my scope to Assassins.</DIV>

[Greenjel]

<DIV>I dunno, I wouldn't classify decapitate as a bragging right, on the current timer it's consistently useful and easily changes the outcome of a tough fight.  Admittedly it doesn't affect the dps on a fight-by-fight basis, however.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Back when assassinate was on a 1 hour timer...that was a bragging right (not to mention frustration in a can!)</DIV>

[Hadanelith]

<P> </P> <P>OH, trust me, I lived through those days... saved it for The Boss Encounter only.</P> <P>Decap is still, in technicality, a "bragging-rights" move. The 10min recast has made it MUCH better than it used to be, in that you can (if you so choose) use it just for the sake of killing a tough trash-mob quickly... and still have it ready for the Named on raids. Overall, it is NOT a significant contributer to our DPS... but on a fight-by-fight basis, meaning those fights in which you DO use it, it is a considerable help both for our DPS and for raid-wide Burn on whole.</P> <P>I still do not personally see where it would be "overpowering" to have Decap on a 5-8 minute timer (AFTER the AA), given that Wizards get Ice Nova (and prior to that, Ice Comet) every 45 seconds... GRANTED, any Wizard that uses that move every 45s is pretty much a dead Wizard.But, the point is that they can use their Big Effing Nuke every single battle in a raid, no problem. We still have to wait at very least a half-dozen battles between ours, usually more if your raid doesn't suck.</P> <P>And yes, I know Sorcerer DPS on whole is screwed right now the way aggro works with their nukes and the comparison between how often they can nuke (without dying) opposed to how easily they get aggro. I'm not implying in any way shape or form that Ice Nova is over-powered; I'm merely pointing out the fact the Decapitate could still use some work timer-wise... </P> <P>WITHOUT a damage modification, thanks.</P> <P> </P> <P>-Hadanelith Raswrolski, 70 Assassin of Kithicor</P>

[Dragonsviperz]

<P>I agree with Hen there. Would like to see a lower reuse on Decap, considering Ice Nova and Fusion and their 45sec and 3min reuse respectively are better then Decapitate. But back to the original topic of the post, the order now imo for tiers from what i have seen, these are just avg's, sometimes a class can out dps another, but just avg's...</P> <P>Tier 1 - Summoners/Assassin 1300dps+ </P> <P>Tier 2 - Swashbucklers, Bruisers, Warlocks 900-1300dps</P> <P>Tier 3 - Rangers, Monks, Wizzards, Berzerkers 500-900dps</P> <P>Just thoughts on some tiers...furys can be in tier 3 if they just nuke all the time..seen guards hit up around 900 sometimes, SK's are also around like 800, don't have a pally so I don't have a clue how they do. Also not really sure on the Enchanter Class atm, my guild has some inconsistentsy on ours atm. Swashys have some potential to be Tier 1 class with their AA's and some of their CA's. Also group setup has alot to do with DPS, so Tier Charts can be thrown off. On that Tier chart I have all of those classes can be a Tier 1 DPS class, just depends on the mob + group. But it is definite...summoners take the cake for number 1 dps class atm, then a close 2 for us assassins...then a mix of Swashys, brigands(don't know whether to put them in 2 or 3), bruisers(some of their AA's can make them a definite T2 class), warlocks(have parsed higher then wizzards even on single target mobs). Then the rest of the melee classes can intertwine with each other for T3 DPS, and add the wizzard in there. This is what it is like in my guild because of what AA's people have taken, or the lack of AA's people have.</P>

[DobyMT]

<DIV><BR><BR><BR><BR>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- <BR>Deila wrote: <BR><BR>I wish that those damned DPS tiers had never been posted by the devs. <BR><BR><BR>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- <BR><BR><BR><BR>Get in line, buddy. <BR><BR>I said as much on a panel at FanFaire. While meant to be generally helpful, that post ended up being unintentionally misleading and has been used as evidence in all kinds of arguments when it absolutely shouldn't be. <BR><BR>Why? Because there are simply far too many variables when it comes to DPS to ever produce an accurate list that would be applicable all the time. Consider just some of the factors that can and do have a major influence on the DPS a character can do: <BR><BR>Level <BR>Spell/art quality <BR>Gear <BR>Which other classes you're grouped with <BR>Type of mob you're fighting <BR>Level of mob you're fighting <BR>Tier of mob you're fighting <BR>Player skill <BR>Player attentiveness <BR>Whether or not spells/arts have refreshed <BR>When you receive a major spell/art upgrade as opposed to another class <BR>Random luck <BR>As we have said before, we have server logs every day on the actual DPS that players do. It breaks it down for us into charts by class, level, and group size. Some of you are probably working under the assumption that classes maintain their relative position most of the time, believing that necros might go down a notch or two at some levels while another class goes up, but overall staying much the same. <BR><BR>That is a completely incorrect assumption. There can be major swings by the same class from level to level and from soloing to a full group. That's not an indication that anything is wrong; rather, it shows how much everyone around you can affect the DPS you do. <BR><BR>We didn't set out to fit classes into DPS tiers based only on solo play or only on group play or only on raid play. The tiers I listed were meant to give a general, overall, gamewide kind of overview of how the classes compared. Instead, some people parse how they did in very specific situations and use my post as proof that something is wrong. <BR><BR>It doesn't work that way. Because if you had been grouped with characters A, B, and C instead of X and Y, your results could have been quite different. <BR><BR>It is natural for people to try to eliminate as many variables as possible to accumulate data, and thus many people post solo parses as proof of one thing or another. But I never claimed that my original post was about how well each class could solo, just as it wasn't about how well each one does in a group. It was meant to illustrate in general how classes compare in potential DPS across the course of the game so that people could use that information as part (and only part) of their character development process. <BR><BR>I'd take the post back if I could, if only because it presents a very, very general picture when what many of the people on this board want is specifics. Sorry, but we don't plan on releasing the amount of data that would be required for everyone to be able to prove their point in every possible situation. <BR><BR>EverQuest II isn't a spreadsheet; it is a game played by a wide variety of individuals who play in a myriad of different ways. To say "class X will always be thus" would be far, far too limiting and would vainly try to remove the most important variable of all: the players themselves. <BR><BR>=========================== <BR>Steve Danuser, a.k.a. Moorgard <BR>Game Designer, EverQuest II <BR><BR><BR>This is all I have to say about that.</DIV>

[Graton]

<div><blockquote><hr>Dragonsviperz wrote:<div></div> <p>I agree with Hen there. Would like to see a lower reuse on Decap, considering Ice Nova and Fusion and their 45sec and 3min reuse respectively are better then Decapitate. But back to the original topic of the post, the order now imo for tiers from what i have seen, these are just avg's, sometimes a class can out dps another, but just avg's...</p> <p>Tier 1 - Summoners/Assassin 1300dps+ </p> <p>Tier 2 - Swashbucklers, Bruisers, Warlocks 900-1300dps</p> <p>Tier 3 - Rangers, Monks, Wizzards, Berzerkers 500-900dps</p> <p>Just thoughts on some tiers...furys can be in tier 3 if they just nuke all the time..seen guards hit up around 900 sometimes, SK's are also around like 800, don't have a pally so I don't have a clue how they do. Also not really sure on the Enchanter Class atm, my guild has some inconsistentsy on ours atm. Swashys have some potential to be Tier 1 class with their AA's and some of their CA's. Also group setup has alot to do with DPS, so Tier Charts can be thrown off. On that Tier chart I have all of those classes can be a Tier 1 DPS class, just depends on the mob + group. But it is definite...summoners take the cake for number 1 dps class atm, then a close 2 for us assassins...then a mix of Swashys, brigands(don't know whether to put them in 2 or 3), bruisers(some of their AA's can make them a definite T2 class), warlocks(have parsed higher then wizzards even on single target mobs). Then the rest of the melee classes can intertwine with each other for T3 DPS, and add the wizzard in there. This is what it is like in my guild because of what AA's people have taken, or the lack of AA's people have.</p><hr></blockquote>good illusionists grouped with a troubador can hit 1K dps and can consistenly put out 800 to 900. witnessed it first hand last night. we don't have a paladin either so i too have no idea. your warlocks must being doing something different because those numbers are much higher than what i see although I don't doubt them since based on the dps tiers they should be up there.</div>

[Dragonsviperz]

Don't know, I've seen one wizzard hit around 1000+dps and hitting just below their assassin, could be AA's or just play style or something.

[Hadanelith]

<P> </P> <P>How different classes do their dmg is highly dependant on who they're grouped with. Our Wizards / Warlocks consistently do 900-1200 by being grouped with the Troubador. Unfortunately, the rest of the group is disgustingly misbalanced, pushing our CNJ / NEC as high as 1800-2k DPS at times.</P> <P>I'm sure you can imagine what this does to aggro.</P> <P>With proper group formations, I'm pretty certain you can get all 4 DPS scouts, both types of SMN, and both types of SOR doing 1200+ DPS, giving you roughly 10k DPS in 1/3 of the Raid's membership. Plus all the other people &gt<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>There's several raid formations that can achieve this but it's difficult to get raid leaders to actually USE them sometimes. /sigh.</P> <P>And as per Lao's post, there really aren't any "tiers," it's just a convenient way of saying "How most people will perform most of the time." In all reality, though, I could probably get myself over 2k DPS if I grouped with the right people and respecced my AA's to specific setups. I prefer to take a more balanced approach overall; I'm more than happy when in a proper group formation I hit 1200-1500 consistantly without throwing aggro all over the place.</P> <P> </P> <P>-Hadanelith Raswrolski, 70 Assassin of Kithicor</P>