Perfectionist: Will SoE Fix it or Change the Description

[Griffona]

So what's your guess?Will SoE change the Description to say it reduces casting time by 33%ORWill SoE change the spell to actually reduce casting time by 50%ORWill SoE do neither for the next 12 months<div></div>

[Graton]

<div></div><div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>Griffonage wrote:So what's your guess?Will SoE change the Description to say it reduces casting time by 33%ORWill SoE change the spell to actually reduce casting time by 50%ORWill SoE do neither for the next 12 months<hr></blockquote>they'll do neither because it's working as intended. it hastens the recast time by 50% so in other words seconds pass 50% faster than they would normally. it's confusing but it works like melee haste. it's not a reduction in casting time but a hastening of the time which of course translates to a reduction in casting time.</span>to put it in mathematical speak, the way to calculate the new recast timer is...New Timer = Old Timer / (1 + Stated %age.)So for a 15 minute recast and Perfectionist which is 50%New Timer = 15 / ( 1 + .50 )15/1.510 is therefore the recast.This same confusion originally came up around haste in eq1 and typically centered around the old FBSS. I used to chuckle at the folks arguing over whether it was 21% haste or 16%. It was both in a sense because 21% haste equated to a 16% reduction in delay.I agree that they should simply make it recast time reduction since that's far easier to understand and the way everyone thinks of it intuitively.</div><p>Message Edited by Graton on <span class="date_text">04-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:04 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Graton on <span class="date_text">04-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:14 AM</span></p>

[blurryfast]

<div></div>reuse time sped up by 50% implies half reusei.e. decapitate would drop from 15 to 7.5as always soe finds a way to make things more complex or misleading than they should bewhen the reuse is cut from 15 to 10, that's making the reuse time 33.3% faster, so why can't sony just say one-third quicker reuse timer?I know I'm bellyaching, but I'd just like things to work the way they read for onceedit:  guess I should say thanks to graton for the explanation, maybe it was just wishful thinking for us to hope for a true 50% drop<div></div><p>Message Edited by blurryfast on <span class="date_text">04-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:55 AM</span></p>

[Carna]

<div></div><div></div><p>A simple test for anybody who thinks there is a hair to be split....</p><p>You walk into a shop to buy an appliance for 100 bucks.... the sales assistant tells you there is 50% off that particular item... how much do you expect to pay?</p><p>Moreover, how much would a court of law expect you to pay if the goods were advertise as being reduced by 50%?</p><p>I understand it refers to speed, and the comparison being drawn is if I am traveling 100mph and it takes me 1 hour to travel 100 miles how long does is take me if I travel 50% faster?... <strong>but that is not what the skill is advetising</strong>... I have just logged on to check and it says "reduces casting times of the caster by X%"... it referes to a quantative reduction not a change in "velocity".... hence if it take 1 hour to travel 100miles and your travel time is reduced by 50% how long does it take you to travel 100 miles.... you'd work out your velocity <strong>after</strong> the frame of reference is set in this case.</p><p>Given the skill description there is no debate, it's factually wrong.</p><p><strong>EDIT...</strong> I'll be a man and retract my post without deleting it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I'm wrong, he's right, I just read the Ranger skill.... the Assassins skill does indeed say that it speeds up recast, so ew are indeed talking about the time it takes to travel 100 miles if I increase my velocity from 100mph to 150mph.</p><p>Mia cupla, I retract unconditionally <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Message Edited by Carnagh on <span class="date_text">04-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:02 PM</span></p>

[Miracole]

<span><blockquote><hr>blurryfast wrote:reuse time sped up by 50% implies half reusei.e. decapitate would drop from 15 to 7.5as always soe finds a way to make things more complex or misleading than they should bewhen the reuse is cut from 15 to 10, that's making the reuse time 33.3% faster, so why can't sony just say one-third quicker reuse timer?I know I'm bellyaching, but I'd just like things to work the way they read for once<div></div><hr></blockquote>no no. that's YOUR math. the thing is that this game is using SOE math and there is nothing you can do about it ;Pfor example, bard's AA starting ability,  it says "reduce the HO starter's reuse timer by 100 PERCENT", and in SOE math, that means HALF the reuse timer, not NO reuse timer. so you can use HO starter every 5 seconds instead of 10 seconds, NOT 0 second.yeah. it's stupid but if you are gonna play their game, learn their math....</span><div></div>

[blurryfast]

did I use to big of a word"implies"??that is why I edited to thank graton for the explanationyep, I DO have to learn soe math (english degree, so I hate math [Removed for Content])thanks all, glad I learned before I took the skill<div></div>

[Kabahl]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Graton wrote:<div></div><div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>Griffonage wrote:So what's your guess?Will SoE change the Description to say it reduces casting time by 33%ORWill SoE change the spell to actually reduce casting time by 50%ORWill SoE do neither for the next 12 months<hr></blockquote>they'll do neither because it's working as intended. it hastens the recast time by 50% so in other words seconds pass 50% faster than they would normally. it's confusing but it works like melee haste. it's not a reduction in casting time but a hastening of the time which of course translates to a reduction in casting time.</span>to put it in mathematical speak, the way to calculate the new recast timer is...New Timer = Old Timer / (1 + Stated %age.)So for a 15 minute recast and Perfectionist which is 50%New Timer = 15 / ( 1 + .50 )15/1.510 is therefore the recast.This same confusion originally came up around haste in eq1 and typically centered around the old FBSS. I used to chuckle at the folks arguing over whether it was 21% haste or 16%. It was both in a sense because 21% haste equated to a 16% reduction in delay.I agree that they should simply make it recast time reduction since that's far easier to understand and the way everyone thinks of it intuitively.</div><p>Message Edited by Graton on <span class="date_text">04-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:04 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Graton on <span class="date_text">04-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:14 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Forgive my ignorance, but uhh . . . .I still don't get it.  In your mathematical equation you state:</p><p>New Timer = Old Timer/(1 + stated percentage)</p><p>Okay, my question is . . . where does the 1 come from and why?  You stated, "It hastens the recast time by 50% so in other words seconds pass 50% faster than they normally would."  Okay.  So, as I see it (and, obviously I'm incorrect because that's neither how you nor Sony sees it, so explain it to me in simpler terms), 50% of 1 = 50/100 of 1 = 1/2 of 1 = 1/2 of a second.  Since 15 minutes = 900 seconds, then 900 half seconds equal 450 full seconds.  450 full seconds is equal to 7 minutes 30 seconds . . . so . . . uhh . . . . I don't get it? . . . .I just don't. </p><p>If I got a store that has a 50% off sale, and I buy a $900 dollar suit, I expect to be paying $450 dollars or I'm walking out of there without a suit.  So I don't understand why the formula is: 15/1.5 and not 15 x .5.  50% of 900 = 1/2 of 900 = 450 seconds = 7 minutes 30 seconds . . . . I don't see it any other way, so please, can you explain it in a different way, help me understand the math?</p><p>- Charn, 70 Assassin, (unbuffed - 322 str, 250 agility, 46 wisdom . . . . 26 intelujinse . . . )</p>

[Carna]

<div></div><div></div><p>Work on the basis that he's right (because he is) and then maybe you'll understand.</p><p>It's not a quantative reduction, its an increase in speed.</p><p>You aren't reducing the amount you spend on a suit, you're driving into town 50% faster... you'll get there 33% sooner (that's the quantative reduction).</p><p>The price isn't 50% less... you're driving 50% faster.... when I double checked (I was wrong first time and read the Rangers skill) it is actually what the skill says.</p><p>It's not a 50% reduction of time spent, it's a 50% increase in speed.</p><p>Not trying to patronise you, it is a genuinely tricky head-flip, just trying to break it down in terms that might be intuitive to you.</p><p>If I recall corectly, this time around they don't describe haste in the same way they did in EQ1.... they need to change the description of the skill. It's not intuitive for it's target audience. It's a silly way of conceptualising it, it's highly debatable as to whether the notion of "recovering faster" as something that can be done literally at a faster pace is a sound concept... it only makes sense when conceptualise as velocity, and that's a pretty flaky concept when considering "recovery". Nobody off the top of their head considers recovering 50% faster as something done literally at literally 150% of the previous speed. In common usage of language it means 50% less time spent.</p><p> </p><p>edit... yes I said the same thing three times... I sound dumb even to myself =/</p><p>Message Edited by Carnagh on <span class="date_text">04-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:57 PM</span></p>

[Miracole]

<span><font size="7"><font color="#ff0000">nerd alert!!!</font></font><blockquote><hr>Carnagh wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>Work on the basis that he's right (because he is) and then maybe you'll understand.</p><p>It's not a quantative reduction, its an increase in speed.</p><p>You aren't reducing the amount you spend on a suit, you're driving into town 50% faster... you'll get there 33% sooner (that's the quantative reduction).</p><p>The price isn't 50% less... you're driving 50% faster.... when I double checked (I was wrong first time and read the Rangers skill) it is actually what the skill says.</p><p>It's not a 50% reduction of time spent, it's a 50% increase in speed.</p><p>Not trying to patronise you, it is a genuinely tricky head-flip, just trying to break it down in terms that might be intuitive to you.</p><p>If I recall corectly, this time around they don't describe haste in the same way they did in EQ1.... they need to change the description of the skill. It's not intuitive for it's target audience. It's a silly way of conceptualising it, it's highly debatable as to whether the notion of "recovering faster" as something that can be done literally at a faster pace is a sound concept... it only makes sense when conceptualise as velocity, and that's a pretty flaky concept when considering "recovery". Nobody off the top of their head considers recovering 50% faster as something done literally at literally 150% of the previous speed. In common usage of language it means 50% less time spent.</p><p> </p><p>edit... yes I said the same thing three times... I sound dumb even to myself =/</p><p>Message Edited by Carnagh on <span class="date_text">04-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:57 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[SmEaGoLLuM]

<div></div>The fact is, it is ambiguous. It would be good if one of the red names came in here and told us whether it is supposed to be 10min/2min recast for those two combat arts or not. In my opinion, 7.5min/1.5min recasts is not overpowering and is quite reasonable for a last line AA which requires 8 points. A lot of other classes last line affects all of their spells/combat arts whereas ours only affects two combat arts.

[Kaediin]

<div></div>Well i was going to take the final skill in the Str line as I had read it as Decapitate being on a 7.5 min timer. But reading the above makes sense and tbh, the skill is not worth 8 points to shave 5 mins off a 15 min timer. Guess i'll use those 8 points to increase te crit skills in Str and Int.

[Kaiser Sigma]

<div></div><div></div><div>Actually it is worth it. Perfeccionist doesn't affect Decapitate only, it also applies to Killing Blade and believe me having KB on a 2 minutes recast timer makes a huge difference. Keep in mind you also get an slight increase on the dmg of the CA which is always nice. During a raid on lab with melee crits maxed and str at 413 I was crit'ing with KB <em>at adept I</em> (can't wait to get another moonstone or find the master I of the CA) for 6k on nameds.</div><p>Message Edited by Kaiser Sigma on <span class="date_text">04-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:50 AM</span></p>

[Graton]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Kabahl wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Graton wrote:<div></div><div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>Griffonage wrote:So what's your guess?Will SoE change the Description to say it reduces casting time by 33%ORWill SoE change the spell to actually reduce casting time by 50%ORWill SoE do neither for the next 12 months<hr></blockquote>they'll do neither because it's working as intended. it hastens the recast time by 50% so in other words seconds pass 50% faster than they would normally. it's confusing but it works like melee haste. it's not a reduction in casting time but a hastening of the time which of course translates to a reduction in casting time.</span>to put it in mathematical speak, the way to calculate the new recast timer is...New Timer = Old Timer / (1 + Stated %age.)So for a 15 minute recast and Perfectionist which is 50%New Timer = 15 / ( 1 + .50 )15/1.510 is therefore the recast.This same confusion originally came up around haste in eq1 and typically centered around the old FBSS. I used to chuckle at the folks arguing over whether it was 21% haste or 16%. It was both in a sense because 21% haste equated to a 16% reduction in delay.I agree that they should simply make it recast time reduction since that's far easier to understand and the way everyone thinks of it intuitively.</div><p>Message Edited by Graton on <span class="date_text">04-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:04 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Graton on <span class="date_text">04-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:14 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Forgive my ignorance, but uhh . . . .I still don't get it.  In your mathematical equation you state:</p><p>New Timer = Old Timer/(1 + stated percentage)</p><p>Okay, my question is . . . where does the 1 come from and why?  You stated, "It hastens the recast time by 50% so in other words seconds pass 50% faster than they normally would."  Okay.  So, as I see it (and, obviously I'm incorrect because that's neither how you nor Sony sees it, so explain it to me in simpler terms), 50% of 1 = 50/100 of 1 = 1/2 of 1 = 1/2 of a second.  Since 15 minutes = 900 seconds, then 900 half seconds equal 450 full seconds.  450 full seconds is equal to 7 minutes 30 seconds . . . so . . . uhh . . . . I don't get it? . . . .I just don't. </p><p>If I got a store that has a 50% off sale, and I buy a $900 dollar suit, I expect to be paying $450 dollars or I'm walking out of there without a suit.  So I don't understand why the formula is: 15/1.5 and not 15 x .5.  50% of 900 = 1/2 of 900 = 450 seconds = 7 minutes 30 seconds . . . . I don't see it any other way, so please, can you explain it in a different way, help me understand the math?</p><p>- Charn, 70 Assassin, (unbuffed - 322 str, 250 agility, 46 wisdom . . . . 26 intelujinse . . . )</p><hr></blockquote>actually i think i can explain it better. it works like this.let's say you have a time machine which makes time pass 50% faster. you're in a real hurry and you're in line at the department of motor vehicles where we'll all know that you'll wait 3 hours for the privilege of being abused by a surly civil servant.you turn on your time machine. now time is going by 50% faster so each second of real time is 1.5 seconds of DMV in line time. in 60 real seconds, 90 DMV seconds have passed. so for each minute you wait, a minute and a half of DMV line time has passed. After 1 hour , 1.5 have passed and after 2 hours 3 have passed and congratulations you are now being patronised and told to go wait in a different line.so you see by increasing the passage of time by 50% , you have reduced your wait time by 33 % or 1 hour.the way this translates to math is the following 1 is the normal rate that time is passing. you are making it pass X % faster so you add that percentage to 1, hence the 1 + stated percentage in the denominator of my equation. the numerator is the amount of time you have to wait or the recast timer. so back to our example...3 hours (wait time at the DMV ) / 1 (passage of normal time is 1) + 50% ( the increase in the passage of time generated by your time machine)3/ 1.52 hours is the new wait time or recast time.does that help any?</span></div>

[Kabahl]

<div></div><p>Oh . . . well why didn't you just say all that (listed below) in the FIRST place . . . :smileywink:  Yeah, that explain it very clear.  THAT, I can wrap my brain around.  It STILL, to me anyway, seems a counterintuitive way to work it.  If they'd just say, "Reduces refresh times of all combat arts 3 minutes or over by 33%." . . .  This wouldn't be an issue to anyone (at least to most . . . there are SOME people that have an issue with EVERYthing . . . just to have something to complain about :manwink: ).  Thanks. </p><p>- Charn, the Enlightened - 70 Assassin, Guk</p><p>P.S.  To Miracole and his/her "Nerd Alert" comment . . . Heh . . . you play a game where you pretend you're an ogre, elf, dwarf, or gnome (among others) who casts spells, goes into hiding in the middle of an open field at will, and hits things with a "charmed longstaff" . . . Heheh . . .who do you want to be today, the pot, or the kettle?  Happy gaming!  :smileytongue:</p><blockquote><hr>Graton wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Kabahl wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Graton wrote:<div></div><div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>Griffonage wrote:So what's your guess?Will SoE change the Description to say it reduces casting time by 33%ORWill SoE change the spell to actually reduce casting time by 50%ORWill SoE do neither for the next 12 months<hr></blockquote>they'll do neither because it's working as intended. it hastens the recast time by 50% so in other words seconds pass 50% faster than they would normally. it's confusing but it works like melee haste. it's not a reduction in casting time but a hastening of the time which of course translates to a reduction in casting time.</span>to put it in mathematical speak, the way to calculate the new recast timer is...New Timer = Old Timer / (1 + Stated %age.)So for a 15 minute recast and Perfectionist which is 50%New Timer = 15 / ( 1 + .50 )15/1.510 is therefore the recast.This same confusion originally came up around haste in eq1 and typically centered around the old FBSS. I used to chuckle at the folks arguing over whether it was 21% haste or 16%. It was both in a sense because 21% haste equated to a 16% reduction in delay.I agree that they should simply make it recast time reduction since that's far easier to understand and the way everyone thinks of it intuitively.</div><p>Message Edited by Graton on <span class="date_text">04-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:04 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Graton on <span class="date_text">04-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:14 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Forgive my ignorance, but uhh . . . .I still don't get it.  In your mathematical equation you state:</p><p>New Timer = Old Timer/(1 + stated percentage)</p><p>Okay, my question is . . . where does the 1 come from and why?  You stated, "It hastens the recast time by 50% so in other words seconds pass 50% faster than they normally would."  Okay.  So, as I see it (and, obviously I'm incorrect because that's neither how you nor Sony sees it, so explain it to me in simpler terms), 50% of 1 = 50/100 of 1 = 1/2 of 1 = 1/2 of a second.  Since 15 minutes = 900 seconds, then 900 half seconds equal 450 full seconds.  450 full seconds is equal to 7 minutes 30 seconds . . . so . . . uhh . . . . I don't get it? . . . .I just don't. </p><p>If I got a store that has a 50% off sale, and I buy a $900 dollar suit, I expect to be paying $450 dollars or I'm walking out of there without a suit.  So I don't understand why the formula is: 15/1.5 and not 15 x .5.  50% of 900 = 1/2 of 900 = 450 seconds = 7 minutes 30 seconds . . . . I don't see it any other way, so please, can you explain it in a different way, help me understand the math?</p><p>- Charn, 70 Assassin, (unbuffed - 322 str, 250 agility, 46 wisdom . . . . 26 intelujinse . . . )</p><hr></blockquote>actually i think i can explain it better. it works like this.let's say you have a time machine which makes time pass 50% faster. you're in a real hurry and you're in line at the department of motor vehicles where we'll all know that you'll wait 3 hours for the privilege of being abused by a surly civil servant.you turn on your time machine. now time is going by 50% faster so each second of real time is 1.5 seconds of DMV in line time. in 60 real seconds, 90 DMV seconds have passed. so for each minute you wait, a minute and a half of DMV line time has passed. After 1 hour , 1.5 have passed and after 2 hours 3 have passed and congratulations you are now being patronised and told to go wait in a different line.so you see by increasing the passage of time by 50% , you have reduced your wait time by 33 % or 1 hour.the way this translates to math is the following 1 is the normal rate that time is passing. you are making it pass X % faster so you add that percentage to 1, hence the 1 + stated percentage in the denominator of my equation. the numerator is the amount of time you have to wait or the recast timer. so back to our example...3 hours (wait time at the DMV ) / 1 (passage of normal time is 1) + 50% ( the increase in the passage of time generated by your time machine)3/ 1.52 hours is the new wait time or recast time.does that help any?</span></div><hr></blockquote>

[Apathet]

<div><span>I think you are both equally nerds (not keeping myself out of that context) but you win the nerd alert award Kabahl.  You win because not only playing and discussing and arguing over a video game you win because you are a little teapot short and stout.  That sounded so much funnier in my head.  Back to the drawing board, I suck.<blockquote><hr>Kabahl wrote:<div></div><p>P.S.  To Miracole and his/her "Nerd Alert" comment . . . Heh . . . you play a game where you pretend you're an ogre, elf, dwarf, or gnome (among others) who casts spells, goes into hiding in the middle of an open field at will, and hits things with a "charmed longstaff" . . . Heheh . . .who do you want to be today, the pot, or the kettle?  Happy gaming!  :smileytongue:</p><blockquote><hr></blockquote></blockquote></span></div>