Class balancing?? Might be easier if weapon procs are balanced first

[Skratttt]

<div>Ok i might get flamed by this but i just want to put forth an idea ...constructive criticism (with proper reasons for why you disagree)is allright.....lets not turn this into a flame war (i would just like to see a post by a dev on why/why not this would work)</div><div> </div><div>Ok....lets see</div><div> </div><div>Currently we all know that not every weapon has the same chance to proc off Combat abilities, giving high delay weapons a Incredible edge...basically making something with low delay inferior to the similar super high delay weapon of same tier/level</div><div> </div><div>I think the answer (and i have suggested it before....) is makin the calculation of delay for procs off combat abilities flat across the board (yet auto atack keeps the same formula)</div><div> </div><div>That is 3 seconds......basically because that will make Your chance to proc off Combat abilites exactly what is read in the spell description (maybe with some +/- variance) if i understand correctly that the chance is normalized on 3 seconds</div><div> </div><div>So basically high delay weapons would be exactly the same as low delay in this respect.....making it a lot more balanced across the board for every weapon</div><div> </div><div>SO....aye/nay?? whats your opinion in how to balance weapons across the board</div><div> </div>

[Al]

<div>Nay, that will bring our procs down even more on CAs seeing as how most our spells are .5 sec casting time. Even if you are using a 1.2 sec delay wep with 5% proc that makes for a better chance to proc than using the actual CA cast time. I think the real solution to this is just capping wep delays to 3 sec. You use a 7 sec bow or flail, it goes off a max delay of 3 sec, not 7. ((3/3) x 5% = 5% chance to proc), (7/3) x 5% = 11.6% to proc), ((.5/3) x 5% = not even a 1% chance to proc.)</div>

[dea]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Alza wrote:<div>Nay, that will bring our procs down even more on CAs seeing as how most our spells are .5 sec casting time. Even if you are using a 1.2 sec delay wep with 5% proc that makes for a better chance to proc than using the actual CA cast time. I think the real solution to this is just capping wep delays to 3 sec. You use a 7 sec bow or flail, it goes off a max delay of 3 sec, not 7. ((3/3) x 5% = 5% chance to proc), (7/3) x 5% = 11.6% to proc), ((.5/3) x 5% = not even a 1% chance to proc.)</div><hr></blockquote>I can agree that capping weapon delay is a reasonable suggestion; such a change effectively penalizes only auto-attack, recognizing that it is combat arts that really skew proc numbers.</span></div>

[judged_one]

I think a better thing is to increase our offensive proc to 20%.Even then we will have a hard time to deal with AOE.Maybe increase our makeshift-weapon line damge to 2kaoe, 30 sec timerand make Cripple base off makeshift weapon(range, no stealth or position requirment) - 1kish damage with debuff to defenseor make us immune to aoe in stealth mob, or change our DPS buff to a self resist buff.Or Make Stream of Arrows and Sniper shot shorter range, so it must be cast with in mob aoe range.<p>Message Edited by judged_one on <span class="date_text">01-25-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:52 PM</span></p>

[MystaSkrat]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>judged_one wrote:I think a better thing is to increase our offensive proc to 20%.Even then we will have a hard time to deal with AOE.Maybe increase our makeshift-weapon line damge to 2kaoe, 30 sec timerand make Cripple base off makeshift weapon(range, no stealth or position requirment) - 1kish damage with debuff to defenseor make us immune to aoe in stealth mob, or change our DPS buff to a self resist buff.Or Make Stream of Arrows and Sniper shot shorter range, so it must be cast with in mob aoe range.<hr></blockquote>I would never give up my self dps buff for resists that I can easily get with the right gear.  Mob AoE ranges are different per ability, so shortening ranger arts just because you don't like the fact that they can sit outside the AoE isn't a very good idea either.  And I think Skratt was talking about making all combat arts proc at a 3 second delay, not using the combat art cast time for the proc formula.  Of course, this would make our combat arts proc more, and rangers would proc next to nothing then, because their damage is based almost entirely on combat arts/procs, and they very rarely auto attack (the good rangers anyway).  I'm all for giving us ways to proc more, but I'd like to see a more ranger friendly formula :smileyhappy:

[arkkon]

<div><3 skratch</div><div> </div><div>Hearth... /sigh.</div>

[Skratttt]

<div></div><div></div><p>Thing is skratch i would like to se rangers do More damage......(what??) but not from procs....bow procs skew the dmg most other classes buffs do....giving people wrong reason to think those skills are overpowered when they are perfectly fine if Procs were balanced...from their CA/Autoatack</p><p>Something needs to be done about the price of cobalt arrows for this ...touchy subject i know</p><p>BTW what im suggesting is that if you spam 5 CA...with a RGF or a 2hb Bo with 1.7 delay regardless you should have same % of chance of procs......the reason i give 3 seconds is cause thats the time i though proc chances are normallized against...</p><p>Main thing is i want short swords with 1.2 delay to proc same as leafblades with 2.1 (not cap delay for calculation..make it flat across the board)....that way you will choose best equipment not by delay...</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by Skratttt on <span class="date_text">01-25-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:28 PM</span></p>

[Skratttt]

<div></div>Thats a good sugesting BTW deaks but it does nothing to add procs to fast weapons... (why should a brawler use a flail when a bo is the proper weapon for them??? procs make 2hb bo weapons the suck vs flails....)

[MystaSkrat]

<div></div>The problem with that is though, that then everyone (that melees) would be running to get 1.2 second delay weapons, and noone would use the longer delay ones.  If they procced at the same rate, why would you want the one with less swings per battle?  Really, the issue is with weapons that have a delay that's over 3 seconds, the longbow is just mentioned the most because it's easy to see it proccing alot on combat arts, especially arts where more than one arrow is shot.  If they kept the current proc formula for auto attack, and came up with a revised version for combat arts, that would most likely be the best solution.  The only problem is, as I said before, rangers are all about combat arts over auto attack, and assassins have a lot of auto attacking going on... so it's hard to balance things and not skew the proc formula toward one class or the other.

[dea]

Considering auto-attack lets say that auto-attack procs are just fine the way they are now. Applied (spells, poison, equipment) effects can only be triggered off of the primary weapon (not primary slot, for ranged attacks your ranged slot is your primary weapon) and weapon tied effects can only be triggered off of that weapon (as proposed for an upcoming patch).Now, how do you manage combat art proc rates. Can you normalize all of them in a simple fashion or do you need to factor in cast, recast, and recovery times to have a solid system? For that matter, how do we determine spell proc rates? I don't think casting time will really do it, and recast times are all over the board so I'm not sure that will work by itself either. Perhaps we can just assume that all CAs have the same chance to proc (on a per-hit basis); this tends to give an advantage to all multi-hit combat arts but then it is already that way.<div></div>

[Skratttt]

<div></div><div></div><p>^^^ exactly deaks.......Wana see proc city?? have a bruiser use their multi hit ae on 8 mobs with an RGF.....off of 1 CA....</p><p>Auto atack is Near PERFECT right now (well maybe not perfect bur really good) ...no i dont see a reason people would get faster weapons cause in auto atack they have the same% to proc over the same amt of time (exeptions to this rule are 100% proc buffs/abilities)</p><p>Btw this discussion going prety good ...good ideas brought up..and good analisis of why/why not it would be good</p><p>Good job guys :smileyvery-happy:</p><p>Reason i bring this subject up in the first place is cause im finding it fishy how at t6 slow weapons are almost  becoming nonexistant (read t6 fabled bows) ....hmmmmm</p><p>Message Edited by Skratttt on <span class="date_text">01-25-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:14 PM</span></p>

[dea]

Incidentally I'm not aware of many Great Flail type weapons. Off the top of my head I can only think of two: the Royal Great Flail and the Great Flail reward from Blort's quest in the Big Bend suburb of Freeport. There may be some no stat versions available for sale from Freeport and Qeynos vendors but those hardly count.<div></div>

[Skratttt]

<div>There are flails available in t5 in fabled RGF...some other flail thats lvl 40 to use fabled (no proc)... a level 30 fabled one too</div><div> </div><div>Im prety sure SoE remooved Flails from DoF cause they sorta knew that ...thats why im insinuating the lack of t6 fabled longbows too is suspicious</div>

[judged_one]

<blockquote><hr>MystaSkratch wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>judged_one wrote:I think a better thing is to increase our offensive proc to 20%.Even then we will have a hard time to deal with AOE.Maybe increase our makeshift-weapon line damge to 2kaoe, 30 sec timerand make Cripple base off makeshift weapon(range, no stealth or position requirment) - 1kish damage with debuff to defenseor make us immune to aoe in stealth mob, or change our DPS buff to a self resist buff.Or Make Stream of Arrows and Sniper shot shorter range, so it must be cast with in mob aoe range.<hr></blockquote>I would never give up my self dps buff for resists that I can easily get with the right gear.  Mob AoE ranges are different per ability, so shortening ranger arts just because you don't like the fact that they can sit outside the AoE isn't a very good idea either.  And I think Skratt was talking about making all combat arts proc at a 3 second delay, not using the combat art cast time for the proc formula.  Of course, this would make our combat arts proc more, and rangers would proc next to nothing then, because their damage is based almost entirely on combat arts/procs, and they very rarely auto attack (the good rangers anyway).  I'm all for giving us ways to proc more, but I'd like to see a more ranger friendly formula :smileyhappy:<hr></blockquote>Who cares if you would or would not, with a 5 min recast and 30sec duration it is not even useful when you are jousting with AOE. And you are wrong with your resist comment. At max resist(6.5k+) MT still takes upward of 1-2k a popdepending on the encounter. And some ecounter have 2 aoe types. If you sacrifice Str for resist, it will still lower your DPS.And Don't put word in my mouth, I care less what Ranger can or can not do, as long as DPS is more in-line with other Tier 1. So don't make me look like a ranger hater.Also It is about balancing in the whole spectrum. The major problem with assassin is that we are a melee based class, and it takes us more time to set up behind the mob and delivery our hvy CA. So jousting is actually hurting us more then other scout melee class. If you increase our proc rate, then suddenly it will be unbalance in a non-raid situation when we are hacking at a mob constantly.Finally, don't take your personal problem with me on this thread. I rather enjoy a "Constructive comment and not your usual self glorification.

[MystaSkrat]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>judged_one wrote:<blockquote><hr>MystaSkratch wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>judged_one wrote:I think a better thing is to increase our offensive proc to 20%.Even then we will have a hard time to deal with AOE.Maybe increase our makeshift-weapon line damge to 2kaoe, 30 sec timerand make Cripple base off makeshift weapon(range, no stealth or position requirment) - 1kish damage with debuff to defenseor make us immune to aoe in stealth mob, or change our DPS buff to a self resist buff.Or Make Stream of Arrows and Sniper shot shorter range, so it must be cast with in mob aoe range.<hr></blockquote>I would never give up my self dps buff for resists that I can easily get with the right gear.  Mob AoE ranges are different per ability, so shortening ranger arts just because you don't like the fact that they can sit outside the AoE isn't a very good idea either.  And I think Skratt was talking about making all combat arts proc at a 3 second delay, not using the combat art cast time for the proc formula.  Of course, this would make our combat arts proc more, and rangers would proc next to nothing then, because their damage is based almost entirely on combat arts/procs, and they very rarely auto attack (the good rangers anyway).  I'm all for giving us ways to proc more, but I'd like to see a more ranger friendly formula :smileyhappy:<hr></blockquote>Who cares if you would or would not, with a 5 min recast and 30sec duration it is not even useful when you are jousting with AOE. And you are wrong with your resist comment. At max resist(6.5k+) MT still takes upward of 1-2k a popdepending on the encounter. And some ecounter have 2 aoe types. If you sacrifice Str for resist, it will still lower your DPS.And Don't put word in my mouth, I care less what Ranger can or can not do, as long as DPS is more in-line with other Tier 1. So don't make me look like a ranger hater.Also It is about balancing in the whole spectrum. The major problem with assassin is that we are a melee based class, and it takes us more time to set up behind the mob and delivery our hvy CA. So jousting is actually hurting us more then other scout melee class. If you increase our proc rate, then suddenly it will be unbalance in a non-raid situation when we are hacking at a mob constantly.Finally, don't take your personal problem with me on this thread. I rather enjoy a "Constructive comment and not your usual self glorification.<hr></blockquote>You can think I'm wrong on my points.  We'll leave it at that.  Noone chose to play an Assassin so they could self buff their resists, and if they did, they chose the wrong class.  It's funny to have you try to explain to me what would and would not be balanced, when you clearly don't know yourself.<p>Message Edited by MystaSkratch on <span class="date_text">01-26-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:45 PM</span></p>

[Tealdea]

I miss Crippling Strike's any dirrection attackable properties :'(/pout<div></div>

[Stormhawk]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>I don't know if yall noticed but the gap between predators isn't as big as you think.  In addition, the scale in which you are talking would throw Rangers down to Low Teir 1 / High Teir 2 DPS.  I'm not kidding, crunch the numbers.  It is basically a ~25% reduction in Ranger DPS and a ~5% increase to Assassin DPS if not more.  See the problem now?1/2 of Ranger DPS is related to procs so you can't reduce proc rates to this level without looking at a catastrophic impact on Ranger DPS.  We are talking hundreds of DPS.<div></div><p>I'd fight more for getting poison back on your offhand again :p</p><p>Message Edited by Stormhawk on <span class="date_text">01-26-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:48 PM</span></p>

[Skratttt]

<div>I know storm but this would even out the proc chances...basically you would loose round 50% your proc ability (but i do beleive they should add mele damage to compensate)</div><div> </div><div>Do you want your CA's damage to be balanced based on your proc dmg ???(Down the line there will allways be class balancing.....if we have learned anything from eq 1 is that some expansions break the game...the classes are rebalanced over and over) I as hell would not....</div>

[Stormhawk]

I don't mind that Rangers are balanced around the fact we have extreme proc damage.  But I was a proc junkie back in EQ1 :p  I imagine lots of rangers feel the same way.  We are fine as we are.Basically, I think assassins should be balanced without triggering a complete revamp of another class.  Which is what would happen if they changed the way proc rates worked.<div></div>

[Skratttt]

<div></div><p>Storm i do Beleive exept for our solo dps (its all the Crapy dot lines fault + too many positional/stealth requirements)...our dps is prety good, not perfect but geting there (yes pierce imune mobs are the suck <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )....other stuff needs adressing for us (Stance proc bellow par...., hate transfer, dot atacks, too many pierce/slash only atacks) <skratt hides knowing hes gona get linched></p><p>Yet right now procs (particularly rangers) are geting nerfed in a different way with the whole "weapons should not proc from bow" nerf...</p><p>From my parses this will hurt quite a bit (dont think people understand how bad that nerf is) your guys dps.....</p><p>What if in t7 there are only shortbows(god forbid)...it can happen(basically not a nerf but a SUPER nerf through itemization)...notice in t6 there are only 2 longbows of legendary + quality?...1 fabled with no proc, 1 player made</p><p>My point is the mechanics of the game as it stands right now obligates everyone to aim for a certain type of weapon.... (why would anyone want a Fabled 3.5 delay bow over a 7 second delay Legendary)...which is wrong.. The proc Calculation is a broken game mechanic that needs to be fixed...rangers need to have their damage Upped to compensate if it so merits it...</p><p>Then again thats my view ...might be wrong....Then again we all make mistakes</p><p> </p>

[AmericanPsycho]

<div></div><div></div><p>I'm a 60 Ranger and I pretty much agree with you there Skrat. I've gotten used to the whole insane proc damage thing over the course of 60 levels, and I can't lie I still get impressed by it when everything triggers and mobs disappear in one shot, but the overall mechanic of it does seem a bit crazy. Making procs more standard across the board wouldnt be a bad idea with a couple things in mind. I mean, it almost seems like its making up for not doing enough raw damage from the CA or attack itself by triggering insane amounts of procs. I mean, just for the sake of arguement lets say all T1 dps should do 1200 dps in a general encounter. How you get there I'd think should have more to do with the classess innate abilities and CA's rather than relying on a proc or effect from the equipment, otherwise not having those things would really hurt you, and indicate a problem with the class. We already know that there are issues in this first tier and the damage ranges go all over the place. Relying on something so heavily like procs just seems dangerous to me, even though thats where most of my killing power comes from. If the way procs work changes, then I'm screwed. But, honestly, I'd much rather me, and everyone else in T1, be hitting the ideal target number on DPS that we want, just by using  the abilities of the classes, poison, ca's, offensive stances and regular attack, or spells for the sorcs, rather than totally relying on massive procing. Mainly to me, being able to hit those numbers not relying on heavy procage would be more legit, and if somethin were to change how procs work, or you couldnt or dont have good procing weapons, you wouldnt be gimped. Dont get me wrong any other rangers that might read this, I've been procing away like mad for a long time too an I like it, but to me, theres somethin that just isnt right with it.</p><p> </p><p>*quick edit* Mainly talking about procs from gear not so much poisons and offensive stances of scouts. In those cases you're talkin something around a 5% proc chance compared to a 25-30% chance on the poisons/stances, which would go off alot more anyway.</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by AmericanPsycho on <span class="date_text">01-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:17 AM</span></p>

[dea]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Stormhawk wrote:I don't mind that Rangers are balanced around the fact we have extreme proc damage.  But I was a proc junkie back in EQ1 :p  I imagine lots of rangers feel the same way.  We are fine as we are.Basically, I think assassins should be balanced without triggering a complete revamp of another class.  Which is what would happen if they changed the way proc rates worked.<div></div><hr></blockquote>We're not only talking about assassin balance (I feel we are fairly well balanced already) but about lowering the bar so that balancing other classes doesn't necessitate ruining this game -- mobs are already dying far too fast.</span></div>

[Stormhawk]

<span><blockquote><hr>deaks wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Stormhawk wrote:I don't mind that Rangers are balanced around the fact we have extreme proc damage.  But I was a proc junkie back in EQ1 :p  I imagine lots of rangers feel the same way.  We are fine as we are.Basically, I think assassins should be balanced without triggering a complete revamp of another class.  Which is what would happen if they changed the way proc rates worked.<div></div><hr></blockquote>We're not only talking about assassin balance (I feel we are fairly well balanced already) but about lowering the bar so that balancing other classes doesn't necessitate ruining this game -- mobs are already dying far too fast.</span></div><hr></blockquote>The only issue here lies with the capabilities of sorcerers.  Predators are fine and summoners are throwing the whole deal out of whack.Also, if you want to "lower the bar" don't ask for something that boosts the output of one class that is already relatively OK.  You are gonna have to nerf everyone's DPS to "not ruin the game" as you so put it.</span><div></div>

[Al]

<div>The main problem we are seeing is that no class should be balanced around procs from a [Removed for Content] proc formula. Rangers do the best T1 dps with barely using any power due to 50% (ive parsed as high as 64%) of there DPS coming from procs and stream which costs 0 power for 30 seconds and does insane DPS. Clearing waves of trashs mobs (huge hp ones) in PPTR, by like the 3rd/4th wave I am near out of power while a ranger has near 75% left and is consistantly doing more DPS. Cap delay at 3 secs would solve the proc formula BS on bows, and SOE can in turn up the dmg on there CAs to put power usage up there with all others, and maybe make stream have a considerable power cost to start (maybe a mana drain over time while streaming).</div><div> </div><div>And yes arkkon I hate you.</div>

[scivias]

Double the proc chance as they are, and deny Combat Arts the ability to initiate procs.Thus balance was achieved.<div></div>

[Al]

<div>That would just make us, brigs/swash proc machines and rangers procless <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Not a fix.</div>

[dea]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Stormhawk wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>deaks wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Stormhawk wrote:I don't mind that Rangers are balanced around the fact we have extreme proc damage.  But I was a proc junkie back in EQ1 :p  I imagine lots of rangers feel the same way.  We are fine as we are.Basically, I think assassins should be balanced without triggering a complete revamp of another class.  Which is what would happen if they changed the way proc rates worked.<hr></blockquote>We're not only talking about assassin balance (I feel we are fairly well balanced already) but about lowering the bar so that balancing other classes doesn't necessitate ruining this game -- mobs are already dying far too fast.</span></div><hr></blockquote><font color="#ffff00">The only issue here lies with the capabilities of sorcerers</font>.  Predators are fine and summoners are throwing the whole deal out of whack.Also, if you want to "lower the bar" don't ask for something that boosts the output of one class that is already relatively OK.  You are gonna have to nerf everyone's DPS to "not ruin the game" as you so put it.</span><hr></blockquote>Yes Sorceror DPS is really bad, that doesn't mean that Ranger DPS isn't over the top too -- two completely separate points. I'd probably say that Assassin DPS, a notch or two lower than Ranger DPS, is a reasonable performance bar for "Tier 1". Conjurors can spike well above what seems reasonable, not even considering damage from their pets -- certainly not what you would expect from a lower tier DPS class -- and this will probably be rectified at some point as well.I'm not asking for any boost to Assassin DPS. I've stated for a long time now that upward balancing of Tier 1 DPS classes to that of a Ranger is difficult if not impossible due to the amazing DPS that Rangers can put out and the speed at which mobs already die. That amazing DPS of the Ranger is primarily garnered from a poorly conceived system to allow procs from Combat Arts at the delay of the weapon used to execute that combat art (negating the concept of normalizing attacks to weapon delay, since combat arts ignore weapon delay) and this is the root cause of the inequity. Not incidentally, it is this mechanic that disguises how weak the Ranger combat arts really are; this weakness should also be addressed.If SOE decides to fix procs that is a good thing. If it drops Ranger DPS far below where it should be (and we can suspect that it might) then that should be taken care of as well. I'm not here to nerf Rangers considerably, my position is to fixed a flawed mechanic and reign in the damage dealt by Rangers because of it.  Bringing you down to where the Assassin is would not hurt to overmuch, we still deal significant damage, and such a balancing act would probably entail increasing damage across the board on short recast Ranger combat arts.</span></div><div></div>

[AmericanPsycho]

<div>Thats basically been my train of thought here. It feels like we were brought up in dps mainly through procs. Our CA's are better than they were a long time ago, but the bulk of our damage, that makes us T1, and puts us on top the way its been, is mainly procs. Now, sure I like doing that kind of damage, but the fact that its based off procs for the most part, just totally leaves room for something to get screwed up and our damage to go striaght down the toilet. I'd much rather have our killing power come from the actual damage on the combat arts, poisons, and autoattack rather than some game mechanic that could disappear at the drop of a hat. Without us procing the way we do, sure our damage will go way way down, but then that, like it was said, would bring to light the real issue, the CA's need to be hitting harder. Right now, we're not exactly relying our our class abilities. We're relying on whats supposed to be kinda random chance procing, that just hits and hits hard constantly. That can go, and our CA's should be revamped to compensate for it, and T1 in general should all be brought into line. If we're all, random number, gonna do 1100 dps, then we should do it, and we should do it with our classes abilities, not crazy game mechanics.</div><div> </div><div>How they'll do this, who knows. Sure they could break things beyond belief, or not change a single thing. But the procing thing really just covers up that we dont do the same kinda damage with our classes attacks. After playin with it for this long, it feels like a bandaid patch job. If we're supposed to be proc machines, yeah I can accept that I guess if they tell us thats what we're supposed to be. But really, that can't be right.</div>

[Skratttt]

<div>Wellcome Ranger Half-bretheren....Good to hear opinions from yah....It would be good if some other scout classes could contribuite to this....</div><div> </div><div>No i dont think doubling auto atack proc chances is a good thing...that would make auto atack specialty class (brawlers, assassins, rogues) waaay too powerfull in a damage vs power usage perspective (important in class balance)</div><div> </div><div>Rangers as it stands dont really have a reliable auto atack (even if they do get cobalt arrows the bows have less of a dmg rating of our dual wielded weapons.....thats why i guess they get stream of arrows with 0 power cost to compensate for that lack of  auto atack dmg)</div><div> </div><div>Oh interesting sidepoint....3 seconds is the delay of the bare fist of your char (i guess thats why its 3 seconds the amt they determined for proc calc.....)</div><div> </div><div>Id also like to see (fat chance) a dev post on this and why or why not this could be implemented....</div><div> </div><div>For what its worth.....</div>

[Ethyarion]

I don't really see any considerable reworking of damage on Ranger combat abilities to be perfectly honest, this would make it possible for Rangers to kill too many mobs with impunity. As it is now I can have many mobs either dead or heavily damaged before they can get anywhere near me and while this is correct and by design ( I have too few melee CAs for it to be any other way) any increase in ranged CA damage would draw as much attention and calling for nerfs as our proc rates do. I'd personally rather do more CA damage too but I don't see that happening any time soon.With KoS coming soon things may be changing but I don't really see how they're going to change Rangers from being reliant on proc based damage any time soon.Regards.<div></div>

[Poochymama]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>deaks wrote:<div><span>Yes Sorceror DPS is really bad, that doesn't mean that Ranger DPS isn't over the top too -- two completely separate points. I'd probably say that Assassin DPS, a notch or two lower than Ranger DPS, is a reasonable performance bar for "Tier 1". Conjurors can spike well above what seems reasonable, not even considering damage from their pets -- certainly not what you would expect from a lower tier DPS class -- and this will probably be rectified at some point as well.I'm not asking for any boost to Assassin DPS. I've stated for a long time now that upward balancing of Tier 1 DPS classes to that of a Ranger is difficult if not impossible due to the amazing DPS that Rangers can put out and the speed at which mobs already die. That amazing DPS of the Ranger is primarily garnered from a poorly conceived system to allow procs from Combat Arts at the delay of the weapon used to execute that combat art (negating the concept of normalizing attacks to weapon delay, since combat arts ignore weapon delay) and this is the root cause of the inequity. Not incidentally, it is this mechanic that disguises how weak the Ranger combat arts really are; this weakness should also be addressed.If SOE decides to fix procs that is a good thing. If it drops Ranger DPS far below where it should be (and we can suspect that it might) then that should be taken care of as well. I'm not here to nerf Rangers considerably, my position is to fixed a flawed mechanic and reign in the damage dealt by Rangers because of it.  Bringing you down to where the Assassin is would not hurt to overmuch, we still deal significant damage, and such a balancing act would probably entail increasing damage across the board on short recast Ranger combat arts.</span></div><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>There are two ways that I can see that could solve the DPS problems.</p><p>The first way involves nerfing and boosting some classes.</p><p>Bring Ranger DPS downt to Assasin DPS (not that big of a nerf), lower summoner DPS down to t2, and raise sorceror DPS up to Assasin DPS or slightly higher than assasin DPS.</p><p>The second way involves no nerfing but mobs would have to be given more health.</p><p>Bring Assasin  DPS up to Ranger DPS, bring sorceror DPS up to ranger DPS or slightly higher than Ranger DPS.</p>

[Skratttt]

<div></div><p>Thank you guys but stick to the subject</p><p>We arent discussing Dps of classes and where they should or should not be</p><p>Nothing bout nerfing or changing dps here...we just trying to get a concensus if  the calculation of procs formula is  broken when it comes to high delay weapons</p><p>I beleive once that is done we can step back and take a better perspective of classes in a balanced form less dependant on equipment</p>

[ag]

<blockquote><hr>scivias wrote:Double the proc chance as they are, and deny Combat Arts the ability to initiate procs.Thus balance was achieved.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Sounds good to me.

[Tlaloc]

<div>Hello all,</div><div> </div><div>First of all let me put a disclosure on all my comments.... </div><div> </div><div>1.  I'm not a harcore player, more than casual but not harcore.</div><div> </div><div>2.  I have yet to parse my damage.</div><div> </div><div>3.  I have not had much opprotunity to raid.</div><div> </div><div>4.  I am not a calculus major which means I don't try to figure out how this stuff works.</div><div> </div><div>Regardless, of all this I will still throw my opinion / observations out there cause like papa used to say opinions are like a**holes everybodys got one.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>First of all, I'm a 46 Assassin decently equiped for my level.  I prefer to use low delay duel wield weapons for the role play vaule I just don't envision assassins with these big slow weapons.  However, I do see that my primary slot weapon does not proc very often, but my bow procs almost every time I use it.  Now I have never played a ranger but based on all that I've read it's my understanding that they are the best DPS class in the game for what appears to be two clear reasons.  One is because of the proc being based on weapon delay they proc like crazy when using the bow which is their primary weapon because most of their CA's are ranged.  Secondly, in raid situations since they use ranged they can deal their damage outside of a mobs AE attacks so they will proc like crazy do tons of damage with little risk.  Again, mind you this is based on what I've read and learned from playing with my ranger counterparts.</div><div> </div><div>I've read alot of posts about how badly assassin's are "gimped" compared to the ranger.  Based on my experience and what I've read I don't believe this to be true.  I've grouped with rangers on several occassions and I do believe the DPS is situational in open areas where the ranger can backup and get his ranged shots off they can be devestating, but in tight areas like dungeons with lots of nearby aggro where you have to be in melee range the assassins shine brightly in these situations.</div><div> </div><div> Now if a rangers damage is mostly because of how the proc calculations work currently and not a CA's then there is clearly a issue.  A classes DPS should not be based on proc's... a proc should be what it was intended for a small chance at additional damage or beneficial buff.  It's been said that if proc'ing is normalized that would significantly decrease rangers DPS well I will have to agree with the other posters if a rangers CA's are that underpowered then that is the core of the problem and that has to be addressed.  In a even playing field assassins and rangers should have roughly the same DPS not including procs.  Obviously in raid  AE encounters where assassins have to joust and rangers can just sit back and fill the mob full of arrows the ranger will and should out damage us, that is another issue all together about how to better handle resists.   So the question is what is the better way to calculate proc's?</div><div> </div><div>Find a way to calculate proc's based on weapon delay?  I thought this is how it was done but it does not make sense to me why longer delay weapons proc more....  To say if I have a weapon that has a delay of 1.2 and one with a delay of 7, I will swing my 1.2 weapon nearly 6 time for every 1 time of the 7 delay weapon if the proc was at 5% would either weapon have a equal chance to proc?....  However, it was stated that CA's ignore weapon delay so how does that work?  So if you were to change CA's so they could not iniate a proc I could see where at least I would and I assume most assassins / rangers would have a issue with that as I am mostly spamming my CA's to do the most damage therefore I would rarely proc if you purely  based it on auto-attack.  </div><div> </div><div>So the only solution that seems applicable to me is to have a generic proc percentage that does not include weapon delay or CA's.....</div><div> </div><div>Now if this uncovers that Ranger CA's are unreasonably underpowered that is yet another issue that should be addressed by adjusting their CA timers and damage output accorindingly to match and be on par with the assassin.  My statement here brings up one point as I stated before rangers will shine in raid encounters where there are AE's and assassins joust to do damage.   Should there be situations where assassins shine?  Not having been in many raid encounters should they be some where it's not easy to get into a ranged position and melee is the only option or is the clear solution there having to do with proper resists.</div><div> </div><div>Final note, I think may of the posters here had very constructive comments of how to balance things I don't think assassins are as bad off as some say and I am very happy with the damage I do and I love when someone points out the 2500 my condeming blade did and knocked the mob down to half in one shot <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>Thanks,</div><div> </div><div>Lathu</div><div>46 Assassin, Faydark</div><div> </div><div>*Darn I need a cool siggy too*</div>

[scivias]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Tlalocnj wrote:I will swing my 1.2 weapon nearly 6 time for every 1 time of the 7 delay weapon if the proc was at 5% would either weapon have a equal chance to proc?<hr></blockquote>That's the issue.. all weapons are proc-fitted to a theoretical weapon with speed 3 und 5% .. if it has speed 6, its 10%, if it has speed 1,5 it has 2,5% and so on..So, theoretically, all weapons would proc the same over time.The problem is that rangers (aka people using high delay weapons) don't even think about shooting once every 7 seconds.. the stream of arrows is a mayor issue there.. 20 bow attacks in 30 seconds.It just doesn't fit the formula to have CAs initiate the proc, since CA have no relation at all to the speed of the weapon they are using.</span></div>

[Graton]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Tlalocnj wrote:<div>Hello all,</div><div> </div><div>First of all let me put a disclosure on all my comments.... </div><div> </div><div>1.  I'm not a harcore player, more than casual but not harcore.</div><div> </div><div>2.  I have yet to parse my damage.</div><div> </div><div>3.  I have not had much opprotunity to raid.</div><div> </div><div>4.  I am not a calculus major which means I don't try to figure out how this stuff works.</div><div> </div><div>Regardless, of all this I will still throw my opinion / observations out there cause like papa used to say opinions are like a**holes everybodys got one.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>First of all, I'm a 46 Assassin decently equiped for my level.  I prefer to use low delay duel wield weapons for the role play vaule I just don't envision assassins with these big slow weapons.  However, I do see that my primary slot weapon does not proc very often, but my bow procs almost every time I use it.  Now I have never played a ranger but based on all that I've read it's my understanding that they are the best DPS class in the game for what appears to be two clear reasons.  One is because of the proc being based on weapon delay they proc like crazy when using the bow which is their primary weapon because most of their CA's are ranged.  Secondly, in raid situations since they use ranged they can deal their damage outside of a mobs AE attacks so they will proc like crazy do tons of damage with little risk.  Again, mind you this is based on what I've read and learned from playing with my ranger counterparts.</div><div> </div><div>I've read alot of posts about how badly assassin's are "gimped" compared to the ranger.  Based on my experience and what I've read I don't believe this to be true.  I've grouped with rangers on several occassions and I do believe the DPS is situational in open areas where the ranger can backup and get his ranged shots off they can be devestating, but in tight areas like dungeons with lots of nearby aggro where you have to be in melee range the assassins shine brightly in these situations.</div><div> </div><div> Now if a rangers damage is mostly because of how the proc calculations work currently and not a CA's then there is clearly a issue.  A classes DPS should not be based on proc's... a proc should be what it was intended for a small chance at additional damage or beneficial buff.  It's been said that if proc'ing is normalized that would significantly decrease rangers DPS well I will have to agree with the other posters if a rangers CA's are that underpowered then that is the core of the problem and that has to be addressed.  In a even playing field assassins and rangers should have roughly the same DPS not including procs.  Obviously in raid  AE encounters where assassins have to joust and rangers can just sit back and fill the mob full of arrows the ranger will and should out damage us, that is another issue all together about how to better handle resists.   So the question is what is the better way to calculate proc's?</div><div> </div><div>Find a way to calculate proc's based on weapon delay?  I thought this is how it was done but it does not make sense to me why longer delay weapons proc more....  To say if I have a weapon that has a delay of 1.2 and one with a delay of 7, I will swing my 1.2 weapon nearly 6 time for every 1 time of the 7 delay weapon if the proc was at 5% would either weapon have a equal chance to proc?....  However, it was stated that CA's ignore weapon delay so how does that work?  So if you were to change CA's so they could not iniate a proc I could see where at least I would and I assume most assassins / rangers would have a issue with that as I am mostly spamming my CA's to do the most damage therefore I would rarely proc if you purely  based it on auto-attack.  </div><div> </div><div>So the only solution that seems applicable to me is to have a generic proc percentage that does not include weapon delay or CA's.....</div><div> </div><div>Now if this uncovers that Ranger CA's are unreasonably underpowered that is yet another issue that should be addressed by adjusting their CA timers and damage output accorindingly to match and be on par with the assassin.  My statement here brings up one point as I stated before rangers will shine in raid encounters where there are AE's and assassins joust to do damage.   Should there be situations where assassins shine?  Not having been in many raid encounters should they be some where it's not easy to get into a ranged position and melee is the only option or is the clear solution there having to do with proper resists.</div><div> </div><div>Final note, I think may of the posters here had very constructive comments of how to balance things I don't think assassins are as bad off as some say and I am very happy with the damage I do and I love when someone points out the 2500 my condeming blade did and knocked the mob down to half in one shot <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>Thanks,</div><div> </div><div>Lathu</div><div>46 Assassin, Faydark</div><div> </div><div>*Darn I need a cool siggy too*</div><hr></blockquote>a few things. firstly assassin dmg is not bad, that's not really what people are saying. what they are pointing out is that ranger dps is in a class of its own, well above assassin & sorcerer dps. it is not , btw, as you say "situational". properly played rangers will outdmg other classes in every fight of reasonable length provided there is the tiniest bit of space. the range you need to be away from a mob to use bow attacks is not very long, it's a rare rare occasion that I can't backpedal to fire off my bow attacks. the "in tight dungeons" sounds nice in a post but the fact remains such places don't really exist. even in solusek's eye, the most labyrinthine dungeon i can think of off the top of my head, there is ample space to get in bow shots.now what i'm saying is really based off lvl 60. it's been a long time since i was lvl 46 and it was pre lu-16 where combat was completely revamped. at that time assassins were better dps than rangers and they may still be, but mostly what's being discussed in this thread is the comparative dps of the classes at lvl 60. tier 1 dps is supposed to be sorcerers and predators - wizards, warlocks, assassins and rangers. i've heard assassins called the [Removed for Content] tier 1 but honestly i think wizards are in the worst shape far and away. i'd call warlocks and assassins roughly comparable and would place rangers in their own class, at least currently.there's been much talk that the changes to procs and melee weapons will bring rangers well down to the other tier 1 classes but the parses i've looked at don't seem to indicate that. when i break down the dps put out by the rangers i've played with the most important factors seem to be: offensive stance, poison & stream of arrows. as long as poison and off. stance proccing isn't changed i still think they will outclass everyone pretty decisively. they certainly will lose some dps but i don't think it will be enough to put them even on par with other classes. we'll see i guess.</span></div>

[Skratttt]

<div>First off to the little 46 assassin enjoy the good days lol</div><div> </div><div>at 60 you wont top the charts in a raid unless the rangers are napping.....Every day im learning to love more the mark line (in raids its allmost insta proc cause of how many mele beating on mob, to freaking bad its pierce dmg <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )...and Finishing blow (particularly at M! with brigands arround)...those 2 are awesome skills ...at least i get to be the 3rd best dps on raid when im really working hard</div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Tlaloc]

<div></div><div>Thanks for the constructive replies <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>Obviously you are right as I am not 60 yet I have no real basis on which to compare assassin skills to another class.  In regards to situational DPS perhaps the rangers I have grouped with preferred melee over ranged in certain dungeon situations.  I think my main point was A.)  I really enjoy playing my class at my level, I don't think assassins are as gimped as some complainers on this board make us out to be.  B.)  Ranger DPS should not rely heavily on proc's.</div><div> </div><div>In the end, I really enjoy playing my class because it is challenging to play and I enjoy the role play aspect of it.  I find myself learing more about my class and how to play it better all the time.  Though I still can't solo heroics as some have mentioned they could on this board.  I would hope in a raid situation people will want me there for becasue I play my class well and I am always willing to help my fellow players out when they are in need...  I hope it's not because they only see me as a DPS number that is not adequate to take down an encounter.</div><div> </div><div>Thanks,</div><div> </div><div>Lathu 49 Assassin, Faydark soon to be Befallen</div><p>Message Edited by Tlalocnj on <span class="date_text">02-02-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:29 AM</span></p>

[Skratttt]

<div></div><p>Well they balanced it allright.......On test now suposedly its CA cast time that determines chance to proc......Good bye leafblades hello short swords</p><p> </p><p>I think they went overboard though......3 seconds was a reasonable number</p>

[Dragonsviperz]

<div></div><div></div><p>Found this on the ranger forums..didn't read this whole thread...just putting this out there to inform you guys on the incoming proc nerf/change...</p><p>Comment is here: <a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=47745#M47745"><font color="#ffcc33">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=47745#M47745</font></a>Quote:We'll continue to work with procs until we're comfortable with how they function. To those crying doom and gloom for the Ranger class: Rangers are currently the higest DPS in the game. They are not supposed to be.If you want further clarification on the proc changes we've been making, especially the first one, read on.As you know, there are many weapons in game that proc extra damage when they land an attack in combat (for example, imbued crafted weapons). In order to ensure that no style of weapon was more likely to proc than any other, we base a weapon's chance to proc on its delay. In other words, a slower weapon has a higher chance to proc because it lands fewer attacks; a faster weapon has a lower chance to proc on each hit because it lands its attacks more often. This keeps dual-wield, one-handed, and two-handed weapons on par with each other in their chance to proc.Some buffs also provide a chance to proc extra damage on a successful attack. Because we even out the proc chance based on delay, such buffs work equally well regardless of weapon type.These buffs also have a chance to proc via combat arts. However, there is a bug on the live servers in that the proc chance for combat arts was also being calculated based on the delay of whatever weapon was equipped. Some players have been using this to their advantage by deliberately equipping slow weapons in order to give their fast-casting combat arts a better chance to proc.As of Live Update #20, combat arts will base their chance to trigger a proc on the casting time of the art itself. Weapon delay will no longer affect any combat art's chance to trigger a proc.Certain classes will feel the effects of this change more than others. Scouts (especially rangers) were more likely to benefit from this bug than other melee classes, which contributed to scout damage being higher overall than it should have been--especially in relation to mages.While no class likes to see a reduction in the damage it does, the alternative would be to not only increase the damage output of other classes to compensate, but also to proportionately increase the health pools of NPCs to account for this rise in player damage. The second option would involve a lot more changes and would be prone to introducing other imbalances into the game.While not doing anything about this bug would be preferable to some, we cannot ignore the progressively more significant effect it is having as the game evolves. Fixing this issue will help bring many of the classes back into their intended range of damage output as we discussed around the time of LU13 and the combat revamp.Keep in mind that if you play a melee class but don't rely on a slow weapon to generate extra procs, this fix should have little impact on your style of play.<font color="#999999">Ryan "Blackguard" Shwayder</font></p><p>Message Edited by Dragonsviperz on <span class="date_text">02-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:21 PM</span></p>

[Skratttt]

<div>This will hurt All dps classes that are not conjurors/sorcerers.......Im examining a parse atm seing how much rangers will loose dps wise</div><div> </div><div>Quick shot + poison makes up for a lot more than 50% of their dmg.they are gona loose 40% of dmg..I sincerely beleive their dmgs on bow atacks needs to be upped (no im not kidding)..or their bow auto atack made on par with our mele auto atack</div><div> </div><div>JESUS!...at new calculation its bad...they are 100% correct calling it the end of the world.....Their CA's Dmg needs to be balanced vs ours</div><div> </div><div>Me thinks they did it wrong....</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div>

[dea]

This appears to be an incremental fix. Instead of doing this on beta and slowly rolling this out it looks like the Test server is going to be the place to balance this change. Obviously if Rangers are hit as hard as we all predict them to be, they will need to see some damage increases.<div></div>

[Carna]

<div></div>I have to say, that it's incredibly impressive how the Assassin here are reacting to the devastation of these changes for Rangers... genuinely... and I play a Brigand not a Ranger.... after having a rough time yourselves these posts are just really impressive to read.

[Dragonsviperz]

<div></div>Heh, i don't mind, been playing an assassin since Jan5th first day of EQ2 and i've not cared about any change and still played through it....if we got nerfed i'd still play an assassin, too much work into Tigruz to quit over a change. LU18 changed procs and poisons, peopel complained ablout dps, i actually found out that Exposing Mark inc dps by a crap load

[Skratttt]

<div></div><p>The more i think of it ...the more i guess Devs did read our little Discussion here...but they took one of the ideas here (the whole CA' cast time as the proc Calc, an idea i do not like at all <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) then again i might be dreaming hahaha why would a dev come by the assassin forums out of all places</p><p>We exposed 2 problems  on CA's and both are geting fixed (unfortunately rangers are not up to par with CA' dmg to compensate)...Multi hit CA's overpowering proc % is gone (common yes we liked it but....it is 1 ca trigger 8 procs???)</p><p>Basically assassins now know that we will proc poison once every -+12 (25% chance over 3 seconds IF WE DONT MISS) seconds prety much on auto atack  on avg time to gear up for poison that does best dmg in a 12 second period (first tick is instant to 3 ticks) im thinking High Dot poison comes out a winner...</p><p>I heard that Haste (worn/casted) does not affect bow Auto atack!?? is this correct?? (for that matter does DPS + buffs??)</p><p>If so this needs to be changed ASAP....thats step 1 on giving rangers proper Auto atack dps....</p><p>Step 2....rangers will need optimal quality arrows more than ever...i say they really need to be able to summon more than enough arrows of T6/t7 quality for raids, its not fair to make them spend a ton of money on cobalts/indiums</p><p>Step 3 now Ranger CA's need to be analized to see where they stand now dps wise vs an equal lvl assassin same gear and same spell tiers (i would give Rangers an Edge on AE encounters.....And  assassin still lead on single target but not by too much, since we are more for 1 on 1 killing)</p><p>If any rangers have any imput on how u would like ur dmg to be compensated NOW is the time to bring it up in a Smart and educated way...maybe we can get through this with actual balancing and not a destruction of a class</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Fennir]

I think it says a lot about you guys that you even give a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].The first conclusions I came to were the exact same as yours.  High DoT poison will be king, along with the best arrows we can get.   It seems in T7 we'll at least be summoning common T7 arrows, which will help.  I don't know what the new poisons are going to look like but I stocked up on Sting of Virulence in addition to my regular stockpile of Adeste's.  I have a feeling I'll be selling a bunch of my stun poisons, as they will probably be very unreliable after the patch.I doubt we'll see any serious upgrade in our DPS for a while though.  Maybe they'll hit one or two skills with some sort of upgrade, which is what they seem to like to do in attempts to nudge a class here or there.  I think something like a 1 minute recast on storm of arrows (instead of 3 minutes on our only green aoe) and a reduction in recast on our triple arrow line (instead of 1 minute) might be the kind of nudge I could get on board with. =)<div></div>

[Sylnt]

<div>Check out the developer forums.........they have acknowledged a problem with procs that gave rangers a significant edge in DPS.  They are testing changes to proc ratio due to weapon delay and combat arts that perform multiple attacks.  Good news for Assassin's if you ask me.</div>

[Tlaloc]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Skratttt wrote:<div></div><p>The more i think of it ...the more i guess Devs did read our little Discussion here...but they took one of the ideas here (the whole CA' cast time as the proc Calc, an idea i do not like at all <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) then again i might be dreaming hahaha why would a dev come by the assassin forums out of all places</p><p>We exposed 2 problems  on CA's and both are geting fixed (unfortunately rangers are not up to par with CA' dmg to compensate)...Multi hit CA's overpowering proc % is gone (common yes we liked it but....it is 1 ca trigger 8 procs???)</p><p>Basically assassins now know that we will proc poison once every -+12 (25% chance over 3 seconds IF WE DONT MISS) seconds prety much on auto atack  on avg time to gear up for poison that does best dmg in a 12 second period (first tick is instant to 3 ticks) im thinking High Dot poison comes out a winner...</p><p>I heard that Haste (worn/casted) does not affect bow Auto atack!?? is this correct?? (for that matter does DPS + buffs??)</p><p>If so this needs to be changed ASAP....thats step 1 on giving rangers proper Auto atack dps....</p><p>Step 2....rangers will need optimal quality arrows more than ever...i say they really need to be able to summon more than enough arrows of T6/t7 quality for raids, its not fair to make them spend a ton of money on cobalts/indiums</p><p>Step 3 now Ranger CA's need to be analized to see where they stand now dps wise vs an equal lvl assassin same gear and same spell tiers (i would give Rangers an Edge on AE encounters.....And  assassin still lead on single target but not by too much, since we are more for 1 on 1 killing)</p><p>If any rangers have any imput on how u would like ur dmg to be compensated NOW is the time to bring it up in a Smart and educated way...maybe we can get through this with actual balancing and not a destruction of a class</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><hr></blockquote><p>I have to say I agree with Skrattt on every point here.  It was necessary to fix the current way proc's worked and that will most likely reveil the real issue that Rangers have is that their CA's are underpowered and will most like need to be adjusted.  I don't think the change will really affect me that much as I never equipped slower weapons to take advantage of the of the way proc's worked to maximize my damage.  I have always preferred DW just because I like the way it looked... <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.  Another thing I think people are misunderstanding is that SOE did not nerf "Rangers" they changed a game mechanic that affected all classes that are capable of proc'ing, rangers were most affected because a large portion of their DPS came from proc's.  This should have never been the case and again brought fourth the real issue which the CA's are underpowered and they do have a cost to maintain their DPS but so do assassins, however we don't have to buy tier appropiate arrows.</p><p>However, I was shocked at the amout of whining that came from the certain rangers in the ranger forum, but at least some reliazed that this change was needed even though they may not have agreed with how it was implemented.  I would hope that people play their class becasue they enjoy it not because they want l33t DPS.  I enjoy my assassin and the skill it requires to play with the positiion attacks, poisons, hate management, etc.....  I could really care less if a conjorer out DPS'd me or a ranger....  I know I play my class well and people play with me because of that and I work to do my damage.  I think rangers will be hurting for a bit after LU20 and hopefully SOE will adjust their CA's or give them summon arrows to compensate and keep them in the teir one DPS class.  We will just have to wait and see....</p><p> </p><p>Thanks,</p><p>Lathu</p><p>54 Assassin of Befallen</p><p>*Yes I have been leveling and actually started T5 raiding <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />*</p>

[Graton]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Skratttt wrote:<div></div><p>The more i think of it ...the more i guess Devs did read our little Discussion here...but they took one of the ideas here (the whole CA' cast time as the proc Calc, an idea i do not like at all <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) then again i might be dreaming hahaha why would a dev come by the assassin forums out of all places</p><p>We exposed 2 problems  on CA's and both are geting fixed (unfortunately rangers are not up to par with CA' dmg to compensate)...Multi hit CA's overpowering proc % is gone (common yes we liked it but....it is 1 ca trigger 8 procs???)</p><p>Basically assassins now know that we will proc poison once every -+12 (25% chance over 3 seconds IF WE DONT MISS) seconds prety much on auto atack  on avg time to gear up for poison that does best dmg in a 12 second period (first tick is instant to 3 ticks) im thinking High Dot poison comes out a winner...</p><p>I heard that Haste (worn/casted) does not affect bow Auto atack!?? is this correct?? (for that matter does DPS + buffs??)</p><p>If so this needs to be changed ASAP....thats step 1 on giving rangers proper Auto atack dps....</p><p>Step 2....rangers will need optimal quality arrows more than ever...i say they really need to be able to summon more than enough arrows of T6/t7 quality for raids, its not fair to make them spend a ton of money on cobalts/indiums</p><p>Step 3 now Ranger CA's need to be analized to see where they stand now dps wise vs an equal lvl assassin same gear and same spell tiers (i would give Rangers an Edge on AE encounters.....And  assassin still lead on single target but not by too much, since we are more for 1 on 1 killing)</p><p>If any rangers have any imput on how u would like ur dmg to be compensated NOW is the time to bring it up in a Smart and educated way...maybe we can get through this with actual balancing and not a destruction of a class</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote>the last time i parsed the effect of haste on auto range attack was before the combat revamp so take this with a grain of salt but at that time haste did not effect it. a 7 delay is a 7 dealy is a 7 delay.i think the summoning of t7 arrows is a must for predators in general. there are many aoe raids where i spend a significant amount of time doing range dps, particularly encounters with two ae's. i have no doubt also that ranger ca damage is going to need to be brought up. if i look at parses from our raids poison and offensive stance are such a large percentage of dmg that I can't imagine their ca dmg is equal to ours.the proc changes are good in a long run i think as working around that crazy mechanic was only going to get more unbearable over time. i'm a bit concerned that by relying on cast time and not considering recast though we are just creating a different situation where caster classes are now heavily favored proc wise as opposed to predators. certainly they won't reach the proc potential that we saw before but it seems possible they will have significant proc advantages over scouts.i'm hearing that there is a nerf coming to the brigands' AR ability and that i find puzzling to be honest. even with that ability they nearly always parsed behind predators on our raids. on a strict range fight they could beat assassins but any reasonable 30 second joust and they were definately behind us in my experience. if this is taken away from them i'm thinking they are going to end up in the same boat as swashbucklers which is more or less: useless in a range fight, kind of useful in a joust fight.rangers will still have the very significant advantage of staying out of ae's but they will be the only scout with this ability. i'm sure hoping the new idea of balance isn't rangers king on aoe fights, assassins king on no aoe's.</span></div>

[Tlaloc]

<div><blockquote><hr>Graton wrote:<span><div></div><blockquote><hr>Skratttt wrote:<div></div><p>The more i think of it ...the more i guess Devs did read our little Discussion here...but they took one of the ideas here (the whole CA' cast time as the proc Calc, an idea i do not like at all <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) then again i might be dreaming hahaha why would a dev come by the assassin forums out of all places</p><p>We exposed 2 problems  on CA's and both are geting fixed (unfortunately rangers are not up to par with CA' dmg to compensate)...Multi hit CA's overpowering proc % is gone (common yes we liked it but....it is 1 ca trigger 8 procs???)</p><p>Basically assassins now know that we will proc poison once every -+12 (25% chance over 3 seconds IF WE DONT MISS) seconds prety much on auto atack  on avg time to gear up for poison that does best dmg in a 12 second period (first tick is instant to 3 ticks) im thinking High Dot poison comes out a winner...</p><p>I heard that Haste (worn/casted) does not affect bow Auto atack!?? is this correct?? (for that matter does DPS + buffs??)</p><p>If so this needs to be changed ASAP....thats step 1 on giving rangers proper Auto atack dps....</p><p>Step 2....rangers will need optimal quality arrows more than ever...i say they really need to be able to summon more than enough arrows of T6/t7 quality for raids, its not fair to make them spend a ton of money on cobalts/indiums</p><p>Step 3 now Ranger CA's need to be analized to see where they stand now dps wise vs an equal lvl assassin same gear and same spell tiers (i would give Rangers an Edge on AE encounters.....And  assassin still lead on single target but not by too much, since we are more for 1 on 1 killing)</p><p>If any rangers have any imput on how u would like ur dmg to be compensated NOW is the time to bring it up in a Smart and educated way...maybe we can get through this with actual balancing and not a destruction of a class</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote><div>the last time i parsed the effect of haste on auto range attack was before the combat revamp so take this with a grain of salt but at that time haste did not effect it. a 7 delay is a 7 dealy is a 7 delay.i think the summoning of t7 arrows is a must for predators in general. there are many aoe raids where i spend a significant amount of time doing range dps, particularly encounters with two ae's. i have no doubt also that ranger ca damage is going to need to be brought up. if i look at parses from our raids poison and offensive stance are such a large percentage of dmg that I can't imagine their ca dmg is equal to ours.the proc changes are good in a long run i think as working around that crazy mechanic was only going to get more unbearable over time. i'm a bit concerned that by relying on cast time and not considering recast though we are just creating a different situation where caster classes are now heavily favored proc wise as opposed to predators. certainly they won't reach the proc potential that we saw before but it seems possible they will have significant proc advantages over scouts.i'm hearing that there is a nerf coming to the brigands' AR ability and that i find puzzling to be honest. even with that ability they nearly always parsed behind predators on our raids. on a strict range fight they could beat assassins but any reasonable 30 second joust and they were definately behind us in my experience. if this is taken away from them i'm thinking they are going to end up in the same boat as swashbucklers which is more or less: useless in a range fight, kind of useful in a joust fight.rangers will still have the very significant advantage of staying out of ae's but they will be the only scout with this ability. i'm sure hoping the new idea of balance isn't rangers king on aoe fights, assassins king on no aoe's. </div><div> </div><div><font color="#ff0000">My opinion is this is the way it should be....  In AE fights rangers should shine as assassins have to joust in non AE fights Assassins should shine since we should be able to out melee a ranger.  Here is where it gets sticky is a ranger can do the same DPS in a AE or non AE encounter... so the question is how to balance it so we can shine a little brighter in non AE encounters.....  BTW since I don't parse does the damage caused by our Mark line get counted toward our DPS?</font></div></span><hr></blockquote></div><div> </div><div>Lathu</div><div> </div><div>54 Assassin - Befallen</div>

[Graton]

our mark line is our dps. it will show up as Agonizing Pain in parses.on your other point, be careful what you wish for. if rangers outdmg use in any joust fight that essentially means that they are better than us on abot 80% of raids. essentially we'd have our one day a week to shine in poet's palace and the rest of the week we could go back to being marginal.then again i have no idea what the new raid zones look like so why the heck am i opening my mouth?<div></div>

[Tlaloc]

<div></div><p>Point well taken Graton... I have yet to do any T6 raiding so not sure how many AE raids vs. non AE raids are available.  Since AE's are a huge issue what are the ways the devs can compensate....  Again, I am of the belief that rangers should shine in AE encounters but only be a reasonable margin let's say 15% and there should be a compensation to allow us to be more active in AE encounters but not be able to do our crazy melee dps...  maybe some modifaction to our offensive stance that allows some limited immunity to AE's at the cost of not being able to use some of our stealth attacks.  Also, I think we should be marginally better than rangers in non AE (melee) encounters where we would have a 10 - 15% advantage.</p><p> </p><p>Lathu</p><p>54 Assassin - Befallen</p>

[AratornCalahn]

Grats guts! YOU RULE!! You ttoaly got rangers nerfed.<div></div>

[Mythor]

uhm, i'm not sure how much this nerf will hit us, too....<div></div>

[AratornCalahn]

not much by the looks of beta parsesr... your about equal to... SHOCK rangers <img src="/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />looks like a good balance change so far<div></div>

[Mythor]

would be nice - i mostly like my assassin as it is, perhaps a little bit of fine-tuning, but not necessary.<div></div>

[Dragonsviperz]

<div>heh, well, i used to joust on alot of fights, then that just got boring and dps was semi slow, so i just ate the AE most the time and parsed up near or higher then my ranger...if you are talking about AE's, ask for a healer in your group if you can, buy some resist armor, and get some sta. You can do this for most AE fights, other then ones with Chilling Mist that 40secs stun...or AE's that will kill anyone but the MT.</div>

[Skratttt]

<div>Lol Aratorn</div><div> </div><div>We did not get Rangers nerfed........First off Rangers were defficient in dps from their own (auto atack from bow not affected by haste or dps + buffs, CA's sub standard) but were fooled into thinking they were allright cause the proc inbalance made up for it....</div><div> </div><div>This post was a matter of Warning as u can see many rangers agreed with me that this was broken and once fixed they were gona be Defficient....</div><div> </div><div>Ranger CA's need a rebalancing UP..and their bow auto atack needs to be affected by both HASTE and DPS buffs</div>

[Graton]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Dragonsviperz wrote:<div>heh, well, i used to joust on alot of fights, then that just got boring and dps was semi slow, so i just ate the AE most the time and parsed up near or higher then my ranger...if you are talking about AE's, ask for a healer in your group if you can, buy some resist armor, and get some sta. You can do this for most AE fights, other then ones with Chilling Mist that 40secs stun...or AE's that will kill anyone but the MT.</div><hr></blockquote>in my guild there's no way a spot in the troub dps group would be wasted on a healer. the group typically looks like troubador, beserker , ranger , ranger , ranger , assassin. there are aoe's that i will eat but there are other mobs with 2 ae's that will destroy me if i try that - fire witch , sunchild , rhoen .</span></div>

[Dragonsviperz]

<div></div>Didn't say you have to be in thre troub group to get a healer man...we don't always need one. And those are the 3 mobs are the ones i don't sit in.