Ranger vs. Assassin DPS analysis (with ACTUAL parses... not speculation and intuition).

[Bobben]

<DIV>I am reposting what I added to the current Assassin thread I started in the Combat board. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Yesterday and the day before, I managed to participate in a few groups which shed some very real light on the situation.  In these groups, I used Combat Stats to determine DPS, and I set it to free-run average DPS over long periods of time (we used 30 minutes).  This means the numbers are low, because they account for us not doing any damage between pulls; however this method gives the best *relative* DPS of everyone in the group.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Class (level) - dps</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Group 1:</DIV> <DIV>Ranger (60) - 373.9</DIV> <DIV>Ranger (57) - 330.8</DIV> <DIV>Monk (59) - 183.8</DIV> <DIV>Assasin (57)- 195.4</DIV> <DIV>Mystic (55) - did not record</DIV> <DIV>Inquisitor (56) - did not record</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Group 2:</DIV> <DIV>Shadowknight (5<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> - 210.8</DIV> <DIV>Assassin (59) - 255.4</DIV> <DIV>Assassin (57) - 220.1</DIV> <DIV>Troubador (51) - 102.4 (mobs were orange con to him)</DIV> <DIV>Defiler (60) - did not record</DIV> <DIV>Templar (52) - did not record</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can everyone see what the problem is now?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There's a few things we can learn/point out from these parses.  My DPS increased by about 25 by the addition of a Troubador to the mix.  This most likely due to mana song (we were able to pull alot faster, so the average DPS increases when averaged over a long period of time).  This also allows us a direct comparison of Assassin to Ranger DPS.  What I will do is average the 57/59 assassin DPS (237.75) then normalize that to Group 1 by effectively removing the Troubador from the equation (195.4/220.1*237.75 = 211.06).  Now we can average the 57/60 ranger DPS (352.35).  Now we can directly compare an AVERAGE Assassin DPS to an AVERAGE Ranger DPS.  (352.35-211.06)/211.06 = 66.9%.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes folks, this means that on average, Rangers do about 67% more damage than Assasins.  For those of you who are going to say "Well maybe you just weren't playing your class correctly", I would like to point out that the 60 assassin is the #2 asssassin (Ekard) on our server (Guk), and I am about the #4 assassin on our server.  The 60 ranger is the #1 or #2 ranger (Deletario) on our server (Guk), and the 57 ranger (Cadara, who is top 10) is considered either the most, or one of the most skilled on our server (Hell, he even gets talked about on OG Radio).  So we were probably playing just about as good as we could.  Even with that, I still averaged over TWO players... so if one was particularly good, and one not so good, the average balances out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rangers and assassins are both subclasses of the same archtype (Predator).  I ask again... "What is going on?"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Whats even more disturbing about these numbers is how our damage compares to a monk in tank mode (only 10 dps more???) and a shadowknight (only 20 average dps more????).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV>

[khalysta]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bobben wrote:<BR> <DIV>There's a few things we can learn/point out from these parses.  My DPS increased by about 25 by the addition of a Troubador to the mix.  This most likely due to mana song (we were able to pull alot faster, so the average DPS increases when averaged over a long period of time).  This also allows us a direct comparison of Assassin to Ranger DPS.  What I will do is average the 57/59 assassin DPS (237.75) then normalize that to Group 1 by effectively removing the Troubador from the equation (195.4/220.1*237.75 = 211.06).  Now we can average the 57/60 ranger DPS (352.35).  Now we can directly compare an AVERAGE Assassin DPS to an AVERAGE Ranger DPS.  (352.35-211.06)/211.06 = 66.9%.</DIV> <DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes folks, this means that on average, Rangers do about 67% more damage than Assasins.  For those of you who are going to say "Well maybe you just weren't playing your class correctly", I would like to point out that the 60 assassin is the #2 asssassin (Ekard) on our server (Guk), and I am about the #4 assassin on our server.  The 60 ranger is the #1 or #2 ranger (Deletario) on our server (Guk), and the 57 ranger (Cadara, who is top 10) is considered either the most, or one of the most skilled on our server (Hell, he even gets talked about on OG Radio).  So we were probably playing just about as good as we could.  Even with that, I still averaged over TWO players... so if one was particularly good, and one not so good, the average balances out.</DIV> <DIV><BR> <HR> </DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Do you have an export from eq companion or something that shows where the damage came from?  Like I have said in other threads I have a feeling the ranger disparity comes from their offensive stance and its procs because when they use a bow its like a 70% proc rate which effectively gives them 300+ damage every ranged combat art which adds up.  I wouldn't necessarily pick on the rangers here and how godly they are rather that the mechanics are out of whack since a 1 or 2 sec casting combat art shouldn't proc at the rate of a 7 second delay weapon.<BR>

[NerroVI]

I don't think he is picking on Rangers, I do think that we are both Preadators and he is pointing out that as the game progresses one is clearly seperating itself from the other, by about 70% =p  Also rangers were not that bad off pre lu13 I used to group with a guildmate who was a ranger and he flat out tore thru stuff, while they might of had some things that needed looked at he never complained once about his ability to DPS PRE LU 13 nor Post LU13. <div></div>

[ChaosUndivided]

<DIV>Although at the moment Ranger's do more DPS than assasins, which needs to be fixed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can not do a fair parse unless the two are completely seperated from group buffs, the Inquisitor and Mystic in group 1 both can provide + dps buffs, Haste, and +strength buffs such as avatar.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think the best way to parse two classes is to have a non grouped tank pull encounters, and have both the ranger and assasin go at it. This way the results are not influenced by outside buffs /debuffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not trying to discredit the legitamate assasin issues, just pointing out that only a self buffed assasin/ranged DPS parse can be fairly compared.</DIV>

[khalysta]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NerroVI wrote:<BR>I don't think he is picking on Rangers, I do think that we are both Preadators and he is pointing out that as the game progresses one is clearly seperating itself from the other, by about 70% =p  Also rangers were not that bad off pre lu13 I used to group with a guildmate who was a ranger and he flat out tore thru stuff, while they might of had some things that needed looked at he never complained once about his ability to DPS PRE LU 13 nor Post LU13.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Read what I said again though.  Is the ranger really that much more powerful than us?  On paper I would say no to that and we have a clear advantage.  So step back for a moment and look at how things work.  Take faltering blast for example.  Have you ever noticed how much you proc using that skill or any of the ranged skills? This is because most of you have a 7 second delay longbow that even with the 1 second cast on that skill acts like a 7 second delay longbow.  Now imagine if our blade flurry line had a 30% proc rate, did 300ish damage, procced on ranged attacks and we had a lot more ranged skills.  Now you should start to see that its not the ranger who is really all that god like its just they make use of a broken mechanic that most of us actually like but now its being taken advantage of to a larger degree.  Take the procs out and I think you will actually find the ranger performing more in the assassin range rather than where they are now.</P>

[Kimira]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> khalysta wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NerroVI wrote:<BR>I don't think he is picking on Rangers, I do think that we are both Preadators and he is pointing out that as the game progresses one is clearly seperating itself from the other, by about 70% =p  Also rangers were not that bad off pre lu13 I used to group with a guildmate who was a ranger and he flat out tore thru stuff, while they might of had some things that needed looked at he never complained once about his ability to DPS PRE LU 13 nor Post LU13.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Read what I said again though.  Is the ranger really that much more powerful than us?  On paper I would say no to that and we have a clear advantage.  So step back for a moment and look at how things work.  Take faltering blast for example.  Have you ever noticed how much you proc using that skill or any of the ranged skills? This is because most of you have a 7 second delay longbow that even with the 1 second cast on that skill acts like a 7 second delay longbow.  Now imagine if our blade flurry line had a 30% proc rate, did 300ish damage, procced on ranged attacks and we had a lot more ranged skills.  Now you should start to see that its not the ranger who is really all that god like its just they make use of a broken mechanic that most of us actually like but now its being taken advantage of to a larger degree.  Take the procs out and I think you will actually find the ranger performing more in the assassin range rather than where they are now.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Don't cry nerf on rangers, that's [expletive haxx0red by Raiscript].  They are not abusing a broken proc, their proc is working as intended, while ours is not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We should just be on par with rangers, period.<BR></DIV>

[bonelo]

<P>Thank you for your parser I always like to see a good group parse but PLEASE stop the stupid math people. You cant possibly relate two different group settings to get an average DPS. <BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bobben wrote: <DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There's a few things we can learn/point out from these parses.  My DPS increased by about 25 by the addition of a Troubador to the mix.  This most likely due to mana song (we were able to pull alot faster, so the average DPS increases when averaged over a long period of time).  This also allows us a direct comparison of Assassin to Ranger DPS.  What I will do is average the 57/59 assassin DPS (237.75) then normalize that to Group 1 by effectively removing the Troubador from the equation (195.4/220.1*237.75 = 211.06).  Now we can average the 57/60 ranger DPS (352.35).  Now we can directly compare an AVERAGE Assassin DPS to an AVERAGE Ranger DPS.  <STRONG>(352.35-211.06)/211.06 = 66.9%.</STRONG><BR> <HR> </DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I read this a few times and didnt know if you are being serious or if i am supposed to laugh. You tried to normalize your DPS from the second group to make it more like the parse in the first group. LOL why didnt you just use the parse from the first group you cant change the numbers to make it like the first one. And then the 66.9% [expletive haxx0red by Raiscript] is that lol. Are you trying to say rangers are 166.9% the dps of an assassin cause thats not what your math says. All I am saying is that your math dont make sense because you tried to hard. The first group parse says everything. I am sorry for picking on you but I am so sick of people giving Ridiculous math in thier posts.</P>

[Gorhauth]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>khalysta wrote: <p>Read what I said again though.  Is the ranger really that much more powerful than us?  On paper I would say no to that and we have a clear advantage.  So step back for a moment and look at how things work.  Take faltering blast for example.  Have you ever noticed how much you proc using that skill or any of the ranged skills? This is because most of you have a 7 second delay longbow that even with the 1 second cast on that skill acts like a 7 second delay longbow.  Now imagine if our blade flurry line had a 30% proc rate, did 300ish damage, procced on ranged attacks and we had a lot more ranged skills.  Now you should start to see that its not the ranger who is really all that god like its just they make use of a broken mechanic that most of us actually like but now its being taken advantage of to a larger degree.  Take the procs out and I think you will actually find the ranger performing more in the assassin range rather than where they are now.</p><hr></blockquote>I think the problem is more than just procs.  If it was limited to just the procs, that would explain rangers beating us.  Procs do not explain rogues beating us or summoners, or bruisers, etc.  The problem is deeper than just the procs.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Gorhauth on <span class=date_text>10-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:22 PM</span>

[khalysta]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gorhauth wrote:<BR> <SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> khalysta wrote:<BR> <P>Read what I said again though.  Is the ranger really that much more powerful than us?  On paper I would say no to that and we have a clear advantage.  So step back for a moment and look at how things work.  Take faltering blast for example.  Have you ever noticed how much you proc using that skill or any of the ranged skills? This is because most of you have a 7 second delay longbow that even with the 1 second cast on that skill acts like a 7 second delay longbow.  Now imagine if our blade flurry line had a 30% proc rate, did 300ish damage, procced on ranged attacks and we had a lot more ranged skills.  Now you should start to see that its not the ranger who is really all that god like its just they make use of a broken mechanic that most of us actually like but now its being taken advantage of to a larger degree.  Take the procs out and I think you will actually find the ranger performing more in the assassin range rather than where they are now.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I think the problem is more than just procs.  If it was limited to just the procs, that would explain rangers beating us.  Procs do not explain rogues beating us or summoners, or bruisers, etc.  The problem is deeper than just the procs.<BR></SPAN> <P>Message Edited by Gorhauth on <SPAN class=date_text>10-22-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:22 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Thats a whole other can of worms when you look at the other classes though.  Rogues on paper from what I see do have some advantages.  Like the backstab lines do go over half of what the shadowblade line can do.  So using that one skillset as an example a rogue backstab has a higher max damage potential than does the assassin and their ranges are tighter each hit than we are.</P> <P>For example using the base app2 and no str bonuses:<BR>Swashbuckler: Pillage(lvl 52 backstab line) 332 - 553(each) So thats min of 662 per minute and a max of 1106 per minute.<BR>Assassin: Gorestrike(lvl 52 shadowblade line) 585 - 975<BR><BR>For tier 1 dps the assassin if anything should have the edge over the rogue especially on core class skills obtained at the same levels.<BR><BR>Don't get me wrong they don't have clear advantages everywhere since we will win at raw melee but rogues do have some interesting advantages when you compare some of the core skills.</P>

[Aienaa]

<DIV><IMG src="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/images/en/titles/traits.gif"><SPAN class=field_name_small>Name</SPAN><SPAN class=field_data_small>Khalysta</SPAN><SPAN class=field_name_small>Server</SPAN><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/server.vm?serverId=106" target=_blank>Kithicor</A><SPAN class=field_name_small>City Alignment</SPAN><SPAN class=field_data_small>None</SPAN><SPAN class=field_name_small>Created</SPAN><SPAN class=field_data_na>Upgrade</SPAN>  <SPAN class=field_name_small>Race</SPAN><SPAN class=field_data_small>Dark Elf</SPAN><SPAN class=field_name_small>Class</SPAN><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/classes/index.vm?classId=40" target=_blank>Assassin</A><SPAN class=field_name_small>Rank</SPAN><SPAN class=field_data_small>50</SPAN><SPAN class=field_name_small>Artisan Class</SPAN><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/classes/art_index.vm?artisanClassId=13" target=_blank>Alchemist</A><SPAN class=field_name_small>Artisan Level</SPAN><SPAN class=field_data_small>54</SPAN> <DIV><BR><IMG height=43 alt="" src="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/images/en/boxes/dark/corner_top_left.gif" width=12 border=0><IMG height=43 alt="" src="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/images/en/titles/wealthiest_players.gif" border=0>NameGuild<IMG height=3 alt="" src="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/images/en/invis.gif" width=3 border=0>1.<A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=110373106" target=_blank>Khalysta</A>Unguilded</DIV> <DIV>I want to know Khalysta, when was the last time you actually played your assassin, and not in the tradeskill role?  I do not see how you can come here and tell thoes that actually play thier characters that they do not know what is going on, when you don't even play your character anymore, and havn't since Trinity started going down hill and the whole fiasco over you having had been thier guild banker and not passing it on to a current member...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You know, alot of things can be made to look 1 way on paper, but when actually applied in game, it does not come out the way the calculation showed on paper....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I log everything and I run it through EQ Companion every so often to see how I am doind compared to other classes....  I have watched Warlock pets parse in at 370 DPS and then you have to add in the Warlock's own DPS in at 200+ for a total of 570+ DPS (and this was not a AOE fight)...  I have watched Troubadors put out 1200 DPS using Precision, which is a 1 min buff that has a refresh of 4 mins, whith thier normal DPS pushing 300 DPS...  If you havn't seen Troubs in action, you should check it out some time....  Tank pulls 3-4 groups (3-5 mobs per group) and within 30 seconds thier all dead and the Tank goes and gets a few more groups before Precision runs out....  And for a kicker, ask how many times I can get an AE off during all this....  NONE, because the stealth and cast time is so long that no matter what I get hit with an AOE from one of the 9-20 mobs that the troub kills in seconds...  I have watched monks put out 450+ DPS....  and the list goes on....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At the same time, I can put out between 280 - 450 DPS under normal circumstance (depending on which CAs are up at the time), and had a high of a little over 700 DPS when I had every CA available and used all of the high hitting ones ( Assassinate, Deathly Blade, Finishing Blow after 20% mark, ect) and it was a short fight....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fact is, just about every melee class can out DPS an Assassin with the exception of a very few classes....   Who would want to take an Assassin, that requires mob positioning to optimize the Assassin's DPS, when they could take any other class and not have to worry about mob positioning and they all do better DPS</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are major bugs, such as....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>MoK failing to stealth on a successful hit....  This one really irritates me as we only have 2 viable option to go into stealth...</DIV> <DIV>Concealment failing to stealth....  This is also irritating as you have to waste your 5 seconds using something else to get you into stealth...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We basicly have 6 frontal attack - 3 normal CAs, 2 special attacks (Cripple and root) and 1 ranged attack that can be landed from the front...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We have 8 attacks that require position behind the mob...  2 Ranged, 5 stealth, and 1 CA that places you in stealth....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We have 3 CAs that will place you in stealth... </DIV> <DIV>MoK - which is an attack</DIV> <DIV>Improved Surviel - with doubles as a hate reducer (and many times you have to use both the Elude and Improved Surviel to lose agro which leaves this more as a special instanced skill as I would really like it up if I get agro)</DIV> <DIV>Concealment - special instanced stealth used basicly when you have multiple high damage CAs ready that need stealth... It's not really worth using if you can only use Garrot and Punch Blade because you can get more damage out of other attacks</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not really going to get into the whole soloing thing, as there are things I can solo, though using dual wield vs 1-hand and shield makes very little difference....  I can also solo Lev 50 ^^^ Heroics as long as thier not caster (now that I am level 60)....   I can even tank Lev 54 ^^^ Heroics (maybe a little higher level also) with a healer... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Out of time, as it's time for me to leave work soon, but I could go on and on about everything that is wrong with our class, and this is from someone that actually plays....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Gwern - 60 Assassin</DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by Aienaa on <span class=date_text>10-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:33 AM</span>

[Bobben]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <P>bonelord wrote:</P> <P>I read this a few times and didnt know if you are being serious or if i am supposed to laugh. You tried to normalize your DPS from the second group to make it more like the parse in the first group. LOL why didnt you just use the parse from the first group you cant change the numbers to make it like the first one. And then the 66.9% [expletive haxx0red by Raiscript] is that lol. Are you trying to say rangers are 166.9% the dps of an assassin cause thats not what your math says. All I am saying is that your math dont make sense because you tried to hard. The first group parse says everything. I am sorry for picking on you but I am so sick of people giving Ridiculous math in thier posts.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>This isn't meant as a flame, but do you know what you are talking about bonelord?  The process of normalization is often used to compare things which otherwise would be uncomparable.  Check out <A href="http://vcsel.micro.uiuc.edu/~leisher/" target=_blank>http://vcsel.micro.uiuc.edu/~leisher/</A> for a list of my publications in scientific journals where normalization was used in the exact same way to compare the results of two different laser structures.  </P> <P>Just because you don't understand why it was used, does not mean that no one else does either.  I will, however, explain it to you again so you can understand. The basic assumption was that my normalized dps should be the same between the two groups.. I came up with a scaling factor to convert my dps in group 2 to my dps in group 1.  The second assumption is that this scaling factor should be about the same for the average assassin dps.  (This may or may not be actually true, but for small variations .. 195 vs 2the average of 211, things behave linearly enough).  Does this yield an exact result? Of course not.  One thing most young mathemeticians can't seem to handle is the concept of uncertainty and error in analysis like this.  Let's say my numbers are a whopping 25% off (considering there's not a 25% difference in dps between my damage in group 1 and group 2, this is a huge overestimate).  I ask you this question then: Is the point of my post refuted?  I would say no.  If rangers do anywhere from 40% to 90% more damage than an assassin, the problem is essentially the same.... they are doing more damage than us.</P> <P>As to the " Are you trying to say rangers are 166.9% the dps of an assassin cause thats not what your math says. "  I can't help you if you don't understand the conecept of a percent difference.  Perhaps you should have asked Dr. Math before posting here.  <A href="http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/58083.html" target=_blank>http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/58083.html</A> would give you a worthy read.</P> <P>Feel free to shoot me an email or PM if you still dont understand what's going on and are genuinely interested in learning about why this sort of normalization does work, why we were able to assume linearity in scaling between the groups, etc.  If you just want to flame some more, I guess you can feel free to do that to, its a free country.</P>

[bonelo]

<DIV> <DIV>After reading your math again and tracing back the numbers to see were you pulled them from I understand it better. Normalizing is kinda pointless imo though simply because you had a very good comparison in your first parse. A 57 assassin did 195.4 dps and a 57 ranger did 330.8 dps in the same exact group situation. Therfore 330.8/195.4=169%  Ranger/Assassin meaning that 57 rangers do 69% more than a 57 assassin. </DIV> <DIV>I can understand why you said <SPAN>(352.35-211.06)/211.06 = 66.9% which is (RangerDPS - AssassinDPS)/AssassinDPS = 66.9%. Were you lost me the first time (and im sure pretty much everyone else) was at  </SPAN><SPAN><SPAN>(195.4/220.1*237.75 = 211.06) But I get it now. Your saying that in the first group you did 195 but did 220 in the second group so assuming that you have the same ability the troubadar raises you overall DPS by about 12%. Meaning that only about 88% of the average DPS of the assassins in group 2 can be used in the comparison. So thats how you got 211.06 and compared that to 352.35 of the first group. After all that though you came up with rangers doing 67% more than assassins. But of course like you admited your constants arent exactly perfect and there are alot of factors to consider when comparing two groups like the resistances of the mobs and stacking of abilities. It just seems to me like you did a whole lot of extra work to get pretty much the same estimate. But Its fair to say that rangers are indeed around 168% the DPS of an assassin.</SPAN></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN><SPAN>I know I went back and told you what you did lol, but Im just trying to help others understand it too. I mean I am pretty good at math and I didn't get it so hopefully others that dont understand can mabey read my post and know [expletive haxx0red by Raiscript] you talking about too. Both parses prove assassins are out DPSed in normal situations and that is all anyone really needs to understand.</SPAN></SPAN></DIV></DIV>

[arkkon]

<DIV>Hi Khalysta.  Hows Trinity's guild bank doing?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sakir</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[zarinskey]

<DIV>This isn't a personal shot at any of you, but I have no idea how you guys are getting parses that low. On mobs conning yellow to me, which is what I'm fighting 90% of the time, in group or out of group, I do at least 300dps, regardless of who's in the group, without using any specials. In fights where we are pulling solo mobs, ^, ^^, ^^^ or whatever.. if I have speicals up, I'm doing 4-500dps, by specials I'm refering to assassinate, dealthly blade, hell even gorestrike. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Things to consider about rangers, compare rangers and assassins like you would warlocks and wizzards.  Wizzards will win dps parses on single mobs, and warlocks own group encounters. Same is true for assassins/rangers. Rangers do great dps on group encounters, they parse somewhat low on single encounters tho. IMO we do fine on group encounters, as long as you stay on the ball, you can keep pretty close to a ranger on a group mob. Out of all the rangers I've grouped with, none can hold a cake to me on single mobs, thats where we have a distinct dps advantage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Today a group of 6 of us did a grind session in PoF for about 9 hours at the cyclops. average lvl was 55. I tanked.....  yeah, I tanked.  I'm not decked out in full fabled.. just mostly t6 armor, some legendary some not. Only fabled I have is t5 wrist, and at the time, a t6 arm that I couldn't wear yet. Group setup was 1 templar 55, 1 fury 57, 1 ranger 55, 1 zerker 53, 1 assassin 55.  That setup we had for the last 6 hours or so, and the entire time I was tanking, and doing about 275dps on average.. from the front side of the mob. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As much as everyone seems to be complaining about the changes since LU13, all I know is none of the assassins in my guild can figure out what the hell most of you guys are talking about. I agree we still have a few areas that need tweaking to make us setup perfect.. but as well rounded as we are.. the fact that we can fill such a huge spot in a group and do such constant high dps.. I just don't see where you guys are getting such low dps numbers from, how your setting up your attacks or what weapons your using... I just don't get it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Check the weapons your using.. t5 stuff  fabled too dosen't hit as often on mobs 58+.. past 61 you'll need t6 weapons to even hit some non epic mobs in poets palace... If your still using ebon, or prismatics.. get cobalt... you'll notice a huge difference in dps just off of that.  If your still buying cheap arrows instead of indium, you'll notice a huge difference when you just use autoattack ranged weapons inbetween bow speicals. Since LU13 the game has sorta turned more eq1 style where level and tier of your weapon makes a difference in a) how often you hit a mob, and b) how much you hit it for. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Don't expect to beat rangers or warlocks on group encounters.. thats the way they are built.. to do better than us on groups... they can't touch us on single mob encounters.  The things SoE needs to fix on our class are the AoEs, times are way to long, and the faltering blast line, and garrote lines, the damage on both of those could be upgraded a bit. Other than those 3 things.. everything else I see works fine. I'm lvl 56 now, I always parse in the top 2 of the group.. everytime.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>       -Scaley Gecko-</DIV> <DIV> 56 Assassin, Steamfront</DIV> <DIV>       -=Shadowcraft=-</DIV><p>Message Edited by zarinskey on <span class=date_text>10-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:24 PM</span>

[arkkon]

<DIV>Ask your ranger to use stream of arrows on a single mob encounter.  :/</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pathfinder Sakir Shadow</DIV> <DIV>The Downward Spiral</DIV> <DIV>Lavastorm Server</DIV> <DIV>60 Ranger</DIV>

[Gorhauth]

<span><blockquote><hr>zarinskey wrote:<div></div> <div></div><div> I'm lvl 56 now, I always parse in the top 2 of the group.. everytime.</div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>Try grouping with some summoners and rogues.  On average I do 350-400dps, if DB is available I hit over 500.  I can hit over 700 with Assassinate.  That is all depending on the encounter of course, both those are fairly representative numbers. The rogues I group with do 700 a helluva lot more often than I do, I would say no less than once every other encounter.  My conj is 49 and my pet was doing over 300 by himself.  On top of that I have some amazingly powerful AEs and dumbfire pets. We do OK if you are looking at the microcosm.  If you compare it to other classes that we are suppose to be doing more DPS than, we are woefully short.  I'd guess either your ranger was being nice to you, doesn't have SoA yet, or isn't playing to his fullest potential.  He should be destroying you, especially when you are tanking.</span><div></div>

[Bobben]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zarinskey wrote:<BR> <DIV>This isn't a personal shot at any of you, but I have no idea how you guys are getting parses that low. On mobs conning yellow to me, which is what I'm fighting 90% of the time, in group or out of group, I do at least 300dps, regardless of who's in the group, without using any specials. In fights where we are pulling solo mobs, ^, ^^, ^^^ or whatever.. if I have speicals up, I'm doing 4-500dps, by specials I'm refering to assassinate, dealthly blade, hell even gorestrike. </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Zarinskey -  The parsing that was done was averaged over a 30 minute time period.  This average includes the downtime between pulls.  I regularly do at least 300dps as well and hit upwards of 5-900 with my skills up.   If this confuses you, send me a PM and we can talk on AIM or something.<BR> <DIV><BR><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zarinskey wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Things to consider about rangers, compare rangers and assassins like you would warlocks and wizzards.  Wizzards will win dps parses on single mobs, and warlocks own group encounters. Same is true for assassins/rangers. Rangers do great dps on group encounters, they parse somewhat low on single encounters tho. IMO we do fine on group encounters, as long as you stay on the ball, you can keep pretty close to a ranger on a group mob. Out of all the rangers I've grouped with, none can hold a cake to me on single mobs, thats where we have a distinct dps advantage.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>It sounds like you are an exceptional assassin who has yet to group with an exceptional ranger.  My above data was collected from a variety of encounters (we cleared the whole giant area which has about an even number of ^^^ vs group encounters).   Let me tell you right now, you do not out-dps a ranger. On average, they do 66% more dps than you if they are equally skilled. <BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV> <HR> zarinskey wrote:<BR>Today a group of 6 of us did a grind session in PoF for about 9 hours at the cyclops. average lvl was 55. I tanked.....  yeah, I tanked.  I'm not decked out in full fabled.. just mostly t6 armor, some legendary some not. Only fabled I have is t5 wrist, and at the time, a t6 arm that I couldn't wear yet. Group setup was 1 templar 55, 1 fury 57, 1 ranger 55, 1 zerker 53, 1 assassin 55.  That setup we had for the last 6 hours or so, and the entire time I was tanking, and doing about 275dps on average.. from the front side of the mob. </DIV> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.  I've had times that I've tanked as well.  275dps average from the front seems reasonable.  Now if you average that over 30 minutes and include the time it takes between fights, you'll find yourself hovering somewhere in the low 100's for DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zarinskey wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As much as everyone seems to be complaining about the changes since LU13, all I know is none of the assassins in my guild can figure out what the hell most of you guys are talking about. I agree we still have a few areas that need tweaking to make us setup perfect.. but as well rounded as we are.. the fact that we can fill such a huge spot in a group and do such constant high dps.. I just don't see where you guys are getting such low dps numbers from, how your setting up your attacks or what weapons your using... I just don't get it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>This is the exact reason I spent time collecting this data and posting it.  Its for those of you who can't "figure out what the hell most of you guys are talking about."  I explained the dps numbers are low for a specific reason.  I wanted to average over long enough periods of time that everyone could get all of their skills in multiple times, so the comparison would be even.  Assassins are not supposed to be "as well rounded as we are."  We are supposed to be T1 DPS.  The point of this was to take dps data, average it over a variety of players (to balance out "skill'), average it over a balanced variety of encounter sizes (to average out group vs single target dps), and average over a long enough period of time such that everyone could use all of their resources available to them.<BR></DIV> <DIV>I am sick and tired of hearing people post saying "Rangers do 500 dps every fight!"  "Well I'm an assassin and i can sometimes do 800dps in one fight" "Assassins suck for dps, we only do 300dps consistently!".  This post is meant to clear all that up with real data.  I am not talking about one fight.  I could honestly care less if I do 20 dps one fight then 3000 dps the next one - <EM>as long as over time, my damage averages out to be roughly equivalent to that of the ranger</EM>.  Right now, it doesn't.  When all is said and done, rangers do about 66% more damage than assassins if they are of equal skill.</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zarinskey wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Check the weapons your using.. t5 stuff  fabled too dosen't hit as often on mobs 58+.. past 61 you'll need t6 weapons to even hit some non epic mobs in poets palace... If your still using ebon, or prismatics.. get cobalt... you'll notice a huge difference in dps just off of that.  If your still buying cheap arrows instead of indium, you'll notice a huge difference when you just use autoattack ranged weapons inbetween bow speicals. Since LU13 the game has sorta turned more eq1 style where level and tier of your weapon makes a difference in a) how often you hit a mob, and b) how much you hit it for. </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Me - 2 imbued cobalt</DIV> <DIV>Ekard - imbued cobalt / prismatic</DIV> <DIV>Both rangers - imbued cobalt / prismatic</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zarinskey wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Don't expect to beat rangers or warlocks on group encounters.. thats the way they are built.. to do better than us on groups... they can't touch us on single mob encounters.  The things SoE needs to fix on our class are the AoEs, times are way to long, and the faltering blast line, and garrote lines, the damage on both of those could be upgraded a bit. Other than those 3 things.. everything else I see works fine. I'm lvl 56 now, I always parse in the top 2 of the group.. everytime.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I dont know what to say.  If you're happy, fine.  Ignorance is bliss.  It sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders, and you are constantly parsing.  I would like to encourage you to do two things.... first... stop parsing individual fights... that doesnt matter... what matters is your average consistent damage.  The longer time you can parse over, the better.  Second... try grouping with the top assassins and rangers on your server.  Send a tell to one of the level 60 rangers asking if they'd be willing to join your group for 30 minutes or so.  I dont think you've really seen what rangers can actually do.  Let me tell you... I out-dps 3/4's of the rangers I group with as well... why?  because they suck.   This data was collected from the best Guk has to offer, so you can be certain we are all playin our classes about as well as we can.... and to reduce the uncertainty in that, i went ahead and averaged the results nonetheless to take care of any uneveness in the skill of the player.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you do both of these things, and find that what I have presented here was incorrect, by all means, post your results for us to see.  The possibility exists that the majority of the community is not seeing things the way you are because we are all wrong, but you need to show us why, not just say "I just don't get it."<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR></DIV><p>Message Edited by Bobben on <span class=date_text>10-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:14 AM</span>

[Bobben]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> khalysta wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <DIV>Do you have an export from eq companion or something that shows where the damage came from?  Like I have said in other threads I have a feeling the ranger disparity comes from their offensive stance and its procs because when they use a bow its like a 70% proc rate which effectively gives them 300+ damage every ranged combat art which adds up.  I wouldn't necessarily pick on the rangers here and how godly they are rather that the mechanics are out of whack since a 1 or 2 sec casting combat art shouldn't proc at the rate of a 7 second delay weapon.<BR></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Khalysta -  I do not have this data available, but you might be right.  Unfortunately, if this *is* the problem, it would likely mean nerfing as the solution to the disparity.  In my opinion this is unacceptable.  There's no way they can nerf all the classes by the appropriate amount to put them all in the tiers which they belong.   We just need a raw dps boost... somewhere, somehow. </P> <P>An interesting thing to point out.  Most people want casting times on our CA's to be reduced.  Really though, the way this parse shows, they could simply increase CA damage by about 66% across the board and we'd be "fixed."  There would still be lots of fights that we parse lower than rangers, and some that we parse higher... But things would balance out in the end then.</P> <P><BR></P>

[Bobben]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bonelord wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV><SPAN><SPAN>It just seems to me like you did a whole lot of extra work to get pretty much the same estimate. But Its fair to say that rangers are indeed around 168% the DPS of an assassin.</SPAN></SPAN></DIV> <DIV> <DIV><SPAN><SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></DIV><BR> <HR> </DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Bonelord -  I think you're right :smileyvery-happy:  It probably was a bit much, but I wanted to make sure that I had all the bases covered.. The purpose was to have a variety of nearly equally skilled people to average over (to try and remove the un-eveness in skill), and to do this over a variety of mobs (to try and remove the un-eveness in group vs single target dps), and to do this over a long time (so everyone had enough time to use skills multiple times, etc).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just another interesting thing to point out to everyone... Assassinate, is actually a pretty worthless skill in the long-run look of things... it turns out even if assassinate hits for 7500 each time, this is only a difference of about 8 dps... In a good group thats parsing over 800dps when averaged over long periods of time, assassinate makes up less than *one* percent of the group's dps <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  This has just changed my philosophy on the use of assassinate.  Because it is pretty much insignificant in terms of the group DPS, I have started to save it for situations where an emergency arises and it is needed. </DIV>

[dea]

<span><blockquote><hr>Bobben wrote: <blockquote>zarinskey wrote: <div> </div> <div>Check the weapons your using.. t5 stuff  fabled too dosen't hit as often on mobs 58+.. past 61 you'll need t6 weapons to even hit some non epic mobs in poets palace... If your still using ebon, or prismatics.. get cobalt... you'll notice a huge difference in dps just off of that.  If your still buying cheap arrows instead of indium, you'll notice a huge difference when you just use autoattack ranged weapons inbetween bow speicals. Since LU13 the game has sorta turned more eq1 style where level and tier of your weapon makes a difference in a) how often you hit a mob, and b) how much you hit it for. </div></blockquote> <blockquote> <div> <hr> </div></blockquote> <div>Me - 2 imbued cobalt</div> <div>Ekard - imbued cobalt / prismatic</div> <div>Both rangers - imbued cobalt / prismatic</div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>The sad reality is that the prismatic was far more effective in this group than my second imbued cobalt leafblade, nothing beats mana regen when you are burning thru it on every encounter (monkey totems, manastone and vessel used as available, t6 drink, GEBs, +mana regen on both plus-ups). Once the troubador joined us I was able to swap over to a higher damage weapon, str was also fairly high at this point so there was no need to drop the GEBs. I might add that aside from the tank (who was chain pulling when we could find mobs to kill, and was regularly below 1/2 mana) no member of the group was running out of mana as fast as we Assassins were. We really do still deal poor damage per unit mana, the difference is that other classes have just gotten better at damage dealing. </span><span><blockquote><hr>Bobben wrote: <div> </div> <div>Just another interesting thing to point out to everyone... Assassinate, is actually a pretty worthless skill in the long-run look of things... it turns out even if assassinate hits for 7500 each time, this is only a difference of about 8 dps... In a good group thats parsing over 800dps when averaged over long periods of time, assassinate makes up less than *one* percent of the group's dps <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  This has just changed my philosophy on the use of assassinate.  Because it is pretty much insignificant in terms of the group DPS, I have started to save it for situations where an emergency arises and it is needed. </div><hr></blockquote></span>I have to disagree here, while still extremely situationally useful Assassinate is far from even "pretty worthless" in my opinion, even in the long-run. While it certainly doesn't make a large impact on our DPS numbers it is part of the Assassin class flavor and can come in handy when used appropriately in a high-damage combo (obviously after the tank has entrenched himself well in mob aggro) -- as an aside, the Ranger combat art Sniper's Shot goes far to blur the line between our sub-classes and intrude on the flavor of our class, this doesn't sit very well with me. I've stated elsewhere that I no longer see the point in saving it for emergencies, over 1/2 the time I find that in such emergency situations even a well-trained guild group is likely to evac after I've wasted Assassinate instead of stay and fight a close battle. That being said, most battles can benefit from the use of Assassinate to take out triple-up-delta mobs who are in the yellow or outright kill a single-up-delta who has been unfortunate enough to add on an Assassin's group when this combat art is available. I see it as a fun spell, sadly one that my class has been balanced against. In a raid situation, once the mob's HP bar drops into the red an informed guild has to learn to let the Assassin get to work. If I'm dead, I call for a res, and it should be heard. The Assassin stands up, and the mob drops down. This may not be the calling we have been waiting for but it is a role, and if it gives me some reason to be part of the raid group then I'm going to embrace it and ride this wave until a better one comes along. No class can bring as much single-target damage to the table in so short a time (about 5-6 seconds = about 20k damage), this doesn't make us valuable in an xp group nor does it make us particularly useful in a farming group (with a 15m recast timer on this capability) but in raiding we can make a niche for ourselves. <div></div>

[NerroVI]

<span><blockquote><hr>zarinskey wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div>This isn't a personal shot at any of you, but I have no idea how you guys are getting parses that low. On mobs conning yellow to me, which is what I'm fighting 90% of the time, in group or out of group, I do at least 300dps, regardless of who's in the group, without using any specials. In fights where we are pulling solo mobs, ^, ^^, ^^^ or whatever.. if I have speicals up, I'm doing 4-500dps, by specials I'm refering to assassinate, dealthly blade, hell even gorestrike. </div> <div> </div> <div>Things to consider about rangers, compare rangers and assassins like you would warlocks and wizzards.  Wizzards will win dps parses on single mobs, and warlocks own group encounters. Same is true for assassins/rangers. Rangers do great dps on group encounters, they parse somewhat low on single encounters tho. IMO we do fine on group encounters, as long as you stay on the ball, you can keep pretty close to a ranger on a group mob. Out of all the rangers I've grouped with, none can hold a cake to me on single mobs, thats where we have a distinct dps advantage.</div> <div> </div> <div>Today a group of 6 of us did a grind session in PoF for about 9 hours at the cyclops. average lvl was 55. I tanked.....  yeah, I tanked.  I'm not decked out in full fabled.. just mostly t6 armor, some legendary some not. Only fabled I have is t5 wrist, and at the time, a t6 arm that I couldn't wear yet. Group setup was 1 templar 55, 1 fury 57, 1 ranger 55, 1 zerker 53, 1 assassin 55.  That setup we had for the last 6 hours or so, and the entire time I was tanking, and doing about 275dps on average.. from the front side of the mob. </div> <div> </div> <div>As much as everyone seems to be complaining about the changes since LU13, all I know is none of the assassins in my guild can figure out what the hell most of you guys are talking about. I agree we still have a few areas that need tweaking to make us setup perfect.. but as well rounded as we are.. the fact that we can fill such a huge spot in a group and do such constant high dps.. I just don't see where you guys are getting such low dps numbers from, how your setting up your attacks or what weapons your using... I just don't get it.</div> <div> </div> <div>Check the weapons your using.. t5 stuff  fabled too dosen't hit as often on mobs 58+.. past 61 you'll need t6 weapons to even hit some non epic mobs in poets palace... If your still using ebon, or prismatics.. get cobalt... you'll notice a huge difference in dps just off of that.  If your still buying cheap arrows instead of indium, you'll notice a huge difference when you just use autoattack ranged weapons inbetween bow speicals. Since LU13 the game has sorta turned more eq1 style where level and tier of your weapon makes a difference in a) how often you hit a mob, and b) how much you hit it for. </div> <div> </div> <div>Don't expect to beat rangers or warlocks on group encounters.. thats the way they are built.. to do better than us on groups... they can't touch us on single mob encounters.  The things SoE needs to fix on our class are the AoEs, times are way to long, and the faltering blast line, and garrote lines, the damage on both of those could be upgraded a bit. Other than those 3 things.. everything else I see works fine. I'm lvl 56 now, I always parse in the top 2 of the group.. everytime.</div> <div> </div> <div>       -Scaley Gecko-</div> <div> 56 Assassin, Steamfront</div> <div>       -=Shadowcraft=-</div><p>Message Edited by zarinskey on <span class="date_text">10-23-2005</span> <span class="time_text">07:24 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>So whats your point?   I truthfully find it hard to believe you were tanking and putting out that kinda DPS in the first place as you couldnt use any of your special attacks unless the DPS was so good from the other classes in the group the mob was dropping faster then it could hit you in defensive, I assume you were in deffensive cos I know how hard those clops hit in PoF and if you arent in any fancy gear you were of course in deffensive which basically lowered your DPS right? right... I will also expect what I want thank you.  You might not expect to beat a warlok or wiz or ranger but I expect to be where SoE said we should be in Tier 1 with wiz warlok rangers, we aren't so that is why we will keep posting and pointing out the issues obviously all of us minus you and your guild assassins see daily, but I am glad you arent seeing them, im sorry did you also say they cant touch us on solo encounter mobs?  you mean 4500+ damage every 45 seconds is worse then us, or the fact that warloks can AE the hell outta solo encounters with multiple mobs?  Im not sure but last I checked it still took 15 mins and 5 mins for my big attacks to reload not under 45 seconds. </span><div></div>

[Poochymama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NerroVI wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zarinskey wrote:<BR> <DIV>This isn't a personal shot at any of you, but I have no idea how you guys are getting parses that low. On mobs conning yellow to me, which is what I'm fighting 90% of the time, in group or out of group, I do at least 300dps, regardless of who's in the group, without using any specials. In fights where we are pulling solo mobs, ^, ^^, ^^^ or whatever.. if I have speicals up, I'm doing 4-500dps, by specials I'm refering to assassinate, dealthly blade, hell even gorestrike. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Things to consider about rangers, compare rangers and assassins like you would warlocks and wizzards.  Wizzards will win dps parses on single mobs, and warlocks own group encounters. Same is true for assassins/rangers. Rangers do great dps on group encounters, they parse somewhat low on single encounters tho. IMO we do fine on group encounters, as long as you stay on the ball, you can keep pretty close to a ranger on a group mob. Out of all the rangers I've grouped with, none can hold a cake to me on single mobs, thats where we have a distinct dps advantage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Today a group of 6 of us did a grind session in PoF for about 9 hours at the cyclops. average lvl was 55. I tanked.....  yeah, I tanked.  I'm not decked out in full fabled.. just mostly t6 armor, some legendary some not. Only fabled I have is t5 wrist, and at the time, a t6 arm that I couldn't wear yet. Group setup was 1 templar 55, 1 fury 57, 1 ranger 55, 1 zerker 53, 1 assassin 55.  That setup we had for the last 6 hours or so, and the entire time I was tanking, and doing about 275dps on average.. from the front side of the mob. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As much as everyone seems to be complaining about the changes since LU13, all I know is none of the assassins in my guild can figure out what the hell most of you guys are talking about. I agree we still have a few areas that need tweaking to make us setup perfect.. but as well rounded as we are.. the fact that we can fill such a huge spot in a group and do such constant high dps.. I just don't see where you guys are getting such low dps numbers from, how your setting up your attacks or what weapons your using... I just don't get it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Check the weapons your using.. t5 stuff  fabled too dosen't hit as often on mobs 58+.. past 61 you'll need t6 weapons to even hit some non epic mobs in poets palace... If your still using ebon, or prismatics.. get cobalt... you'll notice a huge difference in dps just off of that.  If your still buying cheap arrows instead of indium, you'll notice a huge difference when you just use autoattack ranged weapons inbetween bow speicals. Since LU13 the game has sorta turned more eq1 style where level and tier of your weapon makes a difference in a) how often you hit a mob, and b) how much you hit it for. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Don't expect to beat rangers or warlocks on group encounters.. thats the way they are built.. to do better than us on groups... they can't touch us on single mob encounters.  The things SoE needs to fix on our class are the AoEs, times are way to long, and the faltering blast line, and garrote lines, the damage on both of those could be upgraded a bit. Other than those 3 things.. everything else I see works fine. I'm lvl 56 now, I always parse in the top 2 of the group.. everytime.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>       -Scaley Gecko-</DIV> <DIV> 56 Assassin, Steamfront</DIV> <DIV>       -=Shadowcraft=-</DIV> <P>Message Edited by zarinskey on <SPAN class=date_text>10-23-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:24 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>So whats your point?   I truthfully find it hard to believe you were tanking and putting out that kinda DPS in the first place as you couldnt use any of your special attacks unless the DPS was so good from the other classes in the group the mob was dropping faster then it could hit you in defensive, I assume you were in deffensive cos I know how hard those clops hit in PoF and if you arent in any fancy gear you were of course in deffensive which basically lowered your DPS right? right...<BR><BR>I will also expect what I want thank you.  You might not expect to beat a warlok or wiz or ranger but I expect to be where SoE said we should be in Tier 1 with wiz warlok rangers, we aren't so that is why we will keep posting and pointing out the issues obviously all of us minus you and your guild assassins see daily, but I am glad you arent seeing them, im sorry did you also say they cant touch us on solo encounter mobs?  you mean 4500+ damage every 45 seconds is worse then us, or the fact that warloks can AE the hell outta solo encounters with multiple mobs?  Im not sure but last I checked it still took 15 mins and 5 mins for my big attacks to reload not under 45 seconds.<BR><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>As a Berserker I can say it is MUCH MUCH MUCH harder to keep aggro off rangers than assasins. Ive grouped with both plenty of times. I usually trio. The assasins i group with do around 300-350 dps and every once in awhile ill see them spike to 700. I was very proud of my self as I had never lost aggro to any of them. </P> <P>One day a ranger comes along that is one lvl higher than me (same lvl as the assasins). Well to cut a long story short he ended up dying many times and eventually left the group cause i could not keep aggro off of him to save my life. This guy was doing 850-950dps every fight and would spike well into the 1k range.</P> <P>I definately  think assasins need a boost. Yalls 6k hit should be able to be used every fight so you can do 700 dps every fight since that is what rangers can do every fight.</P>

[leafnin]

<DIV>Let me first say that something needs to be done to get Sins up to tier one and that brooks no argument from me.  I just have issues with two things.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>"Ask your ranger to use stream of arrows on a single mob encounter.  :/  -- Sakir"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The average Ranger might get away with this in regular XP groups if you have a good group if not your paste since your most likely in Offensive stance and the mob will turn on you relatively quickly.  Personally I only use if if the mob is under 20% since I'm already doing so much damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <P>"One day a ranger comes along that is one lvl higher than me (same lvl as the assasins). Well to cut a long story short he ended up dying many times and eventually left the group cause i could not keep aggro off of him to save my life. This guy was doing 850-950dps every fight and would spike well into the 1k range.</P> <P>I definately  think assasins need a boost. Yalls 6k hit should be able to be used every fight so you can do 700 dps every fight since that is what rangers can do every fight. --->Poochymamma.</P> <P> </P> <P>[Removed for Content] I don't think he could maintain that high of DPS unless he was using Stream of Arrows and like I said above and to use your own words ..." He ended up dying many times and eventually left the group cause i could not keep aggro off of him to save my life".   Please don't take this as an attack on your aggro control.  He needed to learn to cool it on the DPS. </P> <P>  Rangers do Tier One DPS that's a given, where the problem lies is the ability of the Sin to consistantly compete with Rangers, Warlocks, and Wizards if all things are equal.</P></DIV> <DIV>Falcon</DIV> <DIV>58 Ranger</DIV> <DIV>Kithicor</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV>

[NerroVI]

<span><blockquote><hr>leafnin wrote:<div>Let me first say that something needs to be done to get Sins up to tier one and that brooks no argument from me.  I just have issues with two things.</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> <div>"Ask your ranger to use stream of arrows on a single mob encounter.  :/  -- Sakir"</div> <div> </div> <div>The average Ranger might get away with this in regular XP groups if you have a good group if not your paste since your most likely in Offensive stance and the mob will turn on you relatively quickly.  Personally I only use if if the mob is under 20% since I'm already doing so much damage.</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> <p>"One day a ranger comes along that is one lvl higher than me (same lvl as the assasins). Well to cut a long story short he ended up dying many times and eventually left the group cause i could not keep aggro off of him to save my life. This guy was doing 850-950dps every fight and would spike well into the 1k range.</p> <p>I definately  think assasins need a boost. Yalls 6k hit should be able to be used every fight so you can do 700 dps every fight since that is what rangers can do every fight. --->Poochymamma.</p> <p>[Removed for Content] I don't think he could maintain that high of DPS unless he was using Stream of Arrows and like I said above and to use your own words ..." He ended up dying many times and eventually left the group cause i could not keep aggro off of him to save my life".   Please don't take this as an attack on your aggro control.  He needed to learn to cool it on the DPS. </p> <p><b><u>  Rangers do Tier One DPS that's a given, where the problem lies is the ability of the Sin to consistantly compete with Rangers, Warlocks, and Wizards if all things are equal.</u></b></p></div> <div>Falcon</div> <div>58 Ranger</div> <div>Kithicor</div> <div> </div> <div> </div></div><hr></blockquote>That is all we are really asking for, to be put in with the 3 other classes we were told we fit with, we don't wana see rangers or the 2 finger wagglers nerfed or touched, we want to see assassins damage increased and our current stuff fixed so that it actually WORKS more then .02 /cough blade frenzy /cough or lasts longer then 20 seconds /cough brutal focus , such a waste to have a ability like brutal focus, it should be on a concentration slot or even 2 then it would be useful instead it really gets lost behind a honed reflex macro button =/</span><div></div>

[BlackAdderDr]

  I have opened fights with Stream and kept it up till the death of the mob and I do not get agro.  Primal Agility is adept III perm. 48% agro reduction which goes a long way to making stream a full fight benefit.  Sounds Like this ranger that was doing 850 didnt know much about agro management.  Grouped with a 56 zerker MT in Silent City I once again can go full burn and rarely draw agro.  And being only DPS in that group I average 500 - 700 dps a fight (not using super-expensive t6 legen poison, just t5 legen) against 55 - 57^^^ mobs.  ALL of my ranged CA are either master I / II or adept III.  I used stream of arrows sometimes after opening with 2 big hits (triple arrow adIII and Stealthy Fire MII) and never approached 1000dps against 55 - 57^^^.  Assassins need a bump up the DPS ladder for sure, but I see them doing 300 - 400dps a fight on avg.  But just to set the record straight Stream of Arrows is not an end of fight CA at all. Rangers are not AE specialists... we have a couple AE hits up our sleeves on long timers and if used in concert give us the illusion of being AE kings/queens.  Every 3 minutes I can drop a group, not what I call AE specialists by far. Best Wishes for my  Assassin brethren/sisters, -Alaulai 56 Ranger of Nektulos

[Ker]

<P>I do that kind of DPS without any poison up :p</P> <P> </P> <P>- Cadara</P>

[arkkon]

<DIV>I can be an [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] like cadara (what server).  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pathfinder Sakir Shadow</DIV> <DIV>The Downward Spiral</DIV> <DIV>Lavastorm Server</DIV> <DIV>60 Ranger</DIV>

[Kimira]

<DIV>I'm so jealous of you rangers, my ranger guildie did more damage then the gx4 contested tree mob in living tombs.  And he didn't have any poisons.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Kimirahi on <span class=date_text>10-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:17 PM</span>

[Zaviur]

You guys are nuts.  As a level 59 ranger hunting giants in PoF I was hiting an ave of about 350 to 375 dps on groups of more than 3 could peak out at 850 that's with poison with a high DD on the front side.  In between pulls I was neck and neck with a swashy in our group a level lower than myself.  And if you want to get a true parse get yourself out of those groups have a tank get aggro the mob and go at it with only your buffs because all those buffs from other classes are going to screw with your numbers.  Further more you should post screen shots of your finding including what skills all the rangers are using as well as the assassin alot with which skills are adept 3's and which are masters. Also include starting Power and ending power of each fight. Number of HO's completed.  Level of weapons. % of haste.  And what's on TV.  Because if you're slack the parse will tell.  Alot go into the outcome of the parse not just some well I took a parse for X amount of min during my lunch and the numbers should be good and well we are about the same level but I should rock BS.  If you're gonna show some data bring it on.

[Bobben]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zaviur wrote:<BR>You guys are nuts.  As a level 59 ranger hunting giants in PoF I was hiting an ave of about 350 to 375 dps on groups of more than 3 could peak out at 850 that's with poison with a high DD on the front side.  In between pulls I was neck and neck with a swashy in our group a level lower than myself.  And if you want to get a true parse get yourself out of those groups have a tank get aggro the mob and go at it with only your buffs because all those buffs from other classes are going to screw with your numbers.  Further more you should post screen shots of your finding including what skills all the rangers are using as well as the assassin alot with which skills are adept 3's and which are masters. Also include starting Power and ending power of each fight. Number of HO's completed.  Level of weapons. % of haste.  And what's on TV.  Because if you're slack the parse will tell.  Alot go into the outcome of the parse not just some well I took a parse for X amount of min during my lunch and the numbers should be good and well we are about the same level but I should rock BS.  If you're gonna show some data bring it on. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>laf</P>