Sigh... my turn to whine now, tank DPS that is...

[Demonskill]

<DIV>Well, approching to level 37 now, grouped with a berserker last night along with a "dirge" in group. Berserker do close to avg 100dps while im doing 105-110 dps avg dps (work very hard and chain combat art). The reason i'd assume is that their high dmg 2h weapon (2.4 secs delay) combine with dirge's haste makes them able to swing fast and hard. Whereas for Duel Wielder, we suffer from fast weapon being benefit less in haste, also haste cap in x secs on weapon... I never wanted to whine DPS but I do come across this now... if i only able to out dmg 10 dps to a berserker, i don't think im even needed in group for being nothing for group. Even in other case where i grouped with a level 40 guardian duoing, which means im full time hitting mob's back, I do 90-110dps avg, he does 80 dps avg... Give us something way better than fighter class ok? not a whole 10 - 20 dps. I mean i want at least 2x more dps than the tank class, then i'd consider our class isn't broken. (less than 20% dps differnce doesn't mean [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], cuz we can't tank, no utility for group)</DIV>

[Kven]

<DIV>Your <STRONG>chain combat-art</STRONG> is done in the wrong order then, and are you using low delay weapons or high delay?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Use HIGH delay for groups.  LOW delay for solo (or out of power).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I destroy any berserker in DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's not as simple as mashing, you have to know what order to do debuffs / AEs and whatnot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Kven]

<DIV>I also have to ask, are you using bow attacks / poisons ?</DIV>

[Nidir]

<DIV>how about you enlighten us oh great one?</DIV>

[Putka]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Demonskiller wrote:<BR> <DIV>Whereas for Duel Wielder, we suffer from fast weapon being benefit less in haste</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6633ff>Why?</FONT></DIV> <DIV>also haste cap in x secs on weapon... </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6633ff>??? (btw the "weapon" isnt even getting hasted.. the displayed delay is just the factor by which your base attack speed gets slowed but I'm really not in the mood to explain the whole thing here =/ ) My DW weapons are pretty fast (1.2 and 1.7) and I've never been in a situation where I was buffed to a point that would bring me to any sort of attack speed cap. Hasted in raid by a zerker, illusionist and dirge.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>Give us something way better than fighter class ok? not a whole 10 - 20 dps.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6633ff>It's being worked on.</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Craien]

C'mon, lets stay positive.  There is nothing wrong with debate, especially about a topic so central to all of us.  It never hurts to re-evaluate our fighting methods.

[ZaranilShadowfie]

Now now Zolder, we all know that assassin's can never outdamage a berserker.   ...Back to soloing orcs <div></div>

[Demonskill]

<DIV>here let me list my chain combo and see what u can add/remove for me:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>for killing ^^ mob in group:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Assassin Mark (adept 3)</DIV> <DIV>Torment (adept 1)</DIV> <DIV>Exposed Attack (adept 1)</DIV> <DIV>Ebon Blade (adept 1)</DIV> <DIV>--These are 4 chunck of spells that i cast without order--</DIV> <DIV>Cut (adept 1)</DIV> <DIV>Insidous Cut (adept 1)</DIV> <DIV>Agonike Wound (when i remember to cast)</DIV> <DIV>Haggers Bulfudal Strike</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Exposed Attack (right on 10 secs recast now)</DIV> <DIV>Murderer's Blade</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>--Step back--</DIV> <DIV>Cloaked Barb (adept 1)</DIV> <DIV>Deadly Shot (adept 1)</DIV> <DIV>Head shot (app 4)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(usually mob already dead, if not, then<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV>--Step In--</DIV> <DIV>Exposed Attack</DIV> <DIV>Murderer's Blade</DIV> <DIV>4 chunk of spells again</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*repeat*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sometimes i'll throw in Elaa's Perforating Slice in somewhere where Murderer's Blade is, but i dont put it here cuz it's not always up in every combat. And when Assassin mark proc on me, i usually get aggro, so i'll stick in Shadow + murderer's blade in there as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My weapons are:</DIV> <DIV>PGT (1.2 delay)</DIV> <DIV>Slime Coated Harpoon (2.4 delay)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>what i mean by haste cap is that, EQ2 probably will cap the fastest swing in between weapon for example is 0.3 secs, and that's it, no matter how much haste u put in, now to get close to 0.3 secs, a higher delay weapon is much easier to approach than a fast weapon (what im thinking that is). For example, let's say both toons has 50% haste in their whatever, spell or items. 1.2 delay weapon's 50% = 0.6 delay, 2.4 delayweapon's 50% = 1.2 delay... so the slow weapon gain 1.2 delay from the haste whereas the fast one only gain 0.6 delay... now when there are more haste, when both weapon approached the haste cap 0.3 secs, high delay weapon wil swing as fast as the low delay one, but have higher DMG. This dmg will be very huge when tank uses 2h weapon, if each swing they do is 200 dmg, while my weapon swing 50 dmg, u'll see the huge dps difference from tank just do auto attack. of course this is just my guess on how it works, </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Demonskill]

<DIV>and yes i use poison</DIV>

[MaNiaGG]

Yep it's true, wer're totally worthless, group-optimating wise. Fighters just laugh at us, while pressing his HO-Macro all 10 Seks. Group with a WL and it's even getting more rediculous. Retired, till the scout class is fixed. Oh, and btw, it's getting even worse...wait till late 40's <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Vladdax]

I thought we did go through a bit of a flat spot at high 30's and low 40's, think its jsut the way the skill upgrades are timed. Once 45+ it got alot better, maskpunch blade combo and faultering blastassassins shot, homed reflexes + focus. You might want to spread out your 3 bow shots, probably wasting poison dots because it'll most likely be getting overwritten when the next bow ca lands and procs another poison. <div></div>

[Demonskill]

it's the reason why i chooose higher initial proc dmg poison over the high dot ones =)

[Amise]

I prefer the higher DD procs too partly because of that and also because poisons have a much lower resist rate since the mastery fix. In theory yeah with the high proc rate on bows you're overwriting a lot.  But 2/3 of the bow arts have pretty long cast times and I find it's more effective to step back and chain them rather than run out multiple times. <div></div>

[Ooreo]

<P>We cant outdamage a zerker, because of weapons like the Royal Great Flail.  That by itself drops like skittles in those commercials, 100x more often than DW weapons. And apparently a couple patches ago, SoE decided it was underpowered and upped its stats even more. Yay!</P> <P> </P>

[cr0wangel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Demonskiller wrote:<BR> <DIV>Well, approching to level 37 now, grouped with a berserker last night along with a "dirge" in group. Berserker do close to avg 100dps while im doing 105-110 dps avg dps (work very hard and chain combat art). The reason i'd assume is that their high dmg 2h weapon (2.4 secs delay) combine with dirge's haste makes them able to swing fast and hard. Whereas for Duel Wielder, we suffer from fast weapon being benefit less in haste, also haste cap in x secs on weapon... I never wanted to whine DPS but I do come across this now... if i only able to out dmg 10 dps to a berserker, i don't think im even needed in group for being nothing for group. Even in other case where i grouped with a level 40 guardian duoing, which means im full time hitting mob's back, I do 90-110dps avg, he does 80 dps avg... Give us something way better than fighter class ok? not a whole 10 - 20 dps. I mean i want at least 2x more dps than the tank class, then i'd consider our class isn't broken. (less than 20% dps differnce doesn't mean [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], cuz we can't tank, no utility for group)</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I do agree that scouts should get more DPS, however be careful of what you are posting, asking for a nerf is never good for anyone.</P> <P>There are MANY others factors then just the simple DPS number in a parser. For your comparaison to be valid, you need to compare the levels of the characters, the gears and items (VERY important, gear make a huge difference), the skills (are they app 1, adept 1?), the buffs that were affective at the moment, the mobs you were fighting, the skills of the player behind the keyboard. Comparing a raw number is just wrong. A parser give you information, but this information don't include all the factors.</P> <P>I am playing a berserker, level 49. This is true that our damage is nice. We are offensive tanks. However, please note that despite what most people think, bruisers and monks do more damage than berserkers. Berserkers used to be ubber, a lot of DPS, but this is back to november-december 2004, we have been nerfed and lost 40% of our DPS. Bruisers and Monks do more damage than us, but somehow the berserker DPS stayed in the mind of the players.</P> <P>Also note, the fighters have all different tanking ability. ie: the more they tank, the less DPS they have. This is why gardians, who are pure tanks, have low DPS. Berserkers don't tank as good as gardians, so they have more DPS. Bruisers don't tank as good as berserkers, so even more DPS, and so on. Tanking ability and DPS are element of balance for the fighter classes.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300><STRONG>Moorgard</STRONG></FONT> Wrote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>...With fighters, damage potential is weighed against tanking ability. The latter is defined not just by avoidance or mitigation, but by the kind of buffs and abilities they get. Guardians and Paladins get the most defensive-oriented abilities, both for themselves and their groupmates. As a result, they will have the lowest damage output. At the other end of the scale are Bruisers and Monks, with Berserkers and Shadowknights in the middle....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>                         + Defense........</FONT>                                  <FONT color=#66cc00>......+ DPS</FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>Guardian - Paladin</FONT> - <FONT color=#ff9900>Berserker - Shadowknight</FONT> - <FONT color=#669900>Bruiser - Monk</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>What I say is, if you want more DPS for your class, this is good. Don't ask SOE to nerf the others classes because you are not satisfied with your class. Do scouts need to do more damage? Possibly. Do others classes need to loose their damage because of this? No.</P> <p>Message Edited by cr0wangel on <span class=date_text>06-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:25 PM</span>

[Kven]

<DIV>See some of my posts...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and Bruisers do more than Monks, so put them on the far end of that scale <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Demonskill]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P></P> <HR> <P>There are MANY others factors then just the simple DPS number in a parser. For your comparaison to be valid, you need to compare the levels of the characters, the gears and items (VERY important, gear make a huge difference), the skills (are they app 1, adept 1?), the buffs that were affective at the moment, the mobs you were fighting, the skills of the player behind the keyboard. Comparing a raw number is just wrong. A parser give you information, but this information don't include all the factors.</P> <P></P> <HR> <P><FONT color=#ff33ff>Level, both level 37, Berserker and me.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff33ff>Skills: mine is bascially all Adept 1+ except 1 skill, which ain't much of a difference</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff33ff>Buffs: his buffs = my buffs + i got 45% haste from my own buff</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff33ff>Skill of player: i donno what other combo i can do to maximize the dmg, meaning i have to chain combo to sustain a DPS that's only slightly little higher thant he berserker whereas he auto attack and do some art?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff33ff>Praser: praser is a praser, it prase DPS from start of fight to end of fight. just like ur boss don't ask u the process on what u do, they only ask u the end result.</FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> <P>I am playing a berserker, level 49. This is true that our damage is nice. We are offensive tanks. However, please note that despite what most people think, bruisers and monks do more damage than berserkers. Berserkers used to be ubber, a lot of DPS, but this is back to november-december 2004, we have been nerfed and lost 40% of our DPS. Bruisers and Monks do more damage than us, but somehow the berserker DPS stayed in the mind of the players.</P> <P>Also note, the fighters have all different tanking ability. ie: the more they tank, the less DPS they have. This is why gardians, who are pure tanks, have low DPS. Berserkers don't tank as good as gardians, so they have more DPS. Bruisers don't tank as good as berserkers, so even more DPS, and so on. Tanking ability and DPS are element of balance for the fighter classes.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300><STRONG>Moorgard</STRONG></FONT> Wrote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>...With fighters, damage potential is weighed against tanking ability. The latter is defined not just by avoidance or mitigation, but by the kind of buffs and abilities they get. Guardians and Paladins get the most defensive-oriented abilities, both for themselves and their groupmates. As a result, they will have the lowest damage output. At the other end of the scale are Bruisers and Monks, with Berserkers and Shadowknights in the middle....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>                         + Defense........</FONT>                                  <FONT color=#66cc00>......+ DPS</FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>Guardian - Paladin</FONT> - <FONT color=#ff9900>Berserker - Shadowknight</FONT> - <FONT color=#669900>Bruiser - Monk</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P><FONT color=#ff00cc>If berserker can get as close DPS as an assassin and he's being ranked middle of fighter class, then that means bruiser and monk can out dmg us. Also note that, ur chart is not completely right. it can be written as:</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff00cc>+Defense.....                 ...+DPS (avoidance)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff00cc>We don't get no [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] avoidance compare to bruiser and monk, not even if we have 100 more AGI than them. We don't have the Defense Berserker and SK has, and they do as near DPS than us. You get my point? we do nothing good but a whole dps just like berserker, but we don't tank [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]. when mob turn to us we're bascially power sponge, which brings group effective down.</FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> <P> </P> <P>What I say is, if you want more DPS for your class, this is good. Don't ask SOE to nerf the others classes because you are not satisfied with your class. Do scouts need to do more damage? Possibly. Do others classes need to loose their damage because of this? No.</P> <P>Message Edited by cr0wangel on <SPAN class=date_text>06-02-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>12:25 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Scouts needs way more dmg ok, im not talking about a nerf, SOE are too stupid to figure out something to fix so they just nerf whatever. By the end fighter class will have 10 dps while scout has 20 dps, *cheer*<BR>

[Ishnar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Demonskiller wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ff33ff>Level, both level 37, Berserker and me.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff33ff>Skills: mine is bascially all Adept 1+ except 1 skill, which ain't much of a difference</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff33ff>Buffs: his buffs = my buffs + i got 45% haste from my own buff</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff33ff>Skill of player: i donno what other combo i can do to maximize the dmg, meaning i have to chain combo to sustain a DPS that's only slightly little higher thant he berserker whereas he auto attack and do some art?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff33ff>Praser: praser is a praser, it prase DPS from start of fight to end of fight. just like ur boss don't ask u the process on what u do, they only ask u the end result.</FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>What were you fighting?  How many were there? What was their level?  Were you using the same weapon type or was he using blunt while you used piercing?  You might have had the misfortune of fighting mobs that were piercing or slashing resistant.  Were you using poisons? Were they resisted a lot?   Was the berserker able to utilize his AE attacks?  Dealing with groups of mobs, any AE specialist will outshine a class that doesn't have equivilant AE attacks.  What other classes were in your group?  What HOs were you using?</P> <P>And a boss would want to know the process used.  An employer would have to estimate the rate of progress.  Equipment and training affect that dramatically.  A boss would not expect a lithographer to make copiess at the same rate as a secretary.</P> <P>Ishnar</P> <P><BR> </P> <p>Message Edited by Ishnar on <span class=date_text>06-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:27 PM</span>

[Demonskill]

<DIV>thought i've already said it's ^^ single mob. Anyways, i know the mob doesn't resist my attack, since i prase my DPS every single day, i get almost the number i get everyday, which is around 100-110 dps. He's using a 2hs Axe, </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also said i used poison, and no they don't get resist.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not counting any HO cuz me and him didn't use any HO attack.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>as for AE my DPS can be a little higher, cuz we got 3 AE attack anyways.</DIV>

[cr0wangel]

<DIV>I understand your point, you want the difference between the fighter DPS and scout DPS to be worthy, since scout are made to make damage. But the way you posted your opinion, saying "my turn to whine about tank DPS'' sounded like you want the fighters to be nerfed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you do 100 DPS and they nerf your friend so he do only 50 DPS. Will you do more damage? No. Will you out damage him? Yes. So you need to know if you want to do more damage to the mob OR just want to out damage the fighters for the hell of it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You need to tell SOE that scouts need more DPS, not that you want to out damage fighters.</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by cr0wangel on <span class=date_text>06-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:14 PM</span>

[Kven]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> cr0wangel wrote:<BR> <DIV>I understand your point, you want the difference between the fighter DPS and scout DPS to be worthy, since scout are made to make damage. But the way you posted your opinion, saying "my turn to whine about tank DPS'' sounded like you want the fighters to be nerfed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you do 100 DPS and they nerf your friend so he do only 50 DPS. Will you do more damage? No. Will you out damage him? Yes. So you need to know if you want to do more damage to the mob OR just want to out damage the fighters for the hell of it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You need to tell SOE that scouts need more DPS, not that you want to out damage fighters.</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P>Message Edited by cr0wangel on <SPAN class=date_text>06-03-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:14 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>cr0wangel,</P> <P>    All of that is moot.  Fighters ARE getting a nerf.  Scouts probably won't go UP in damage.  If they do, it will be very minor.  Most classes are going to do LESS damage.  But they will scale everything the way it should be.... according to them anyhow.</P> <P>    Our opinions are just that... the vision of the game is in their hands.  I am glad they are fixing this.  The numbers mean jack sh*t to me, I just want the class balance and then we can fight raids AS INTENDED.  I'm all for bringing the challenge back.<BR></P>