Suggestions for those struggling to keep up with other classes DPS

[shebalse]

<DIV>Im ready to accept your flames for my views. with that information let me continue.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I love my class. Love it. Im a lvl 50 assassin on befallen. IMO best assassin on server. And deffinitly in the best Hardcore raiding guild on the server.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>DPS, I love my DPS it can always be better i suppose, but i love it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>only 1 complaint. Peircing unfriendly bosses. This does suck and does significantly lower our DPS output. For these i do end up losing to bruiser dps and such. Some mobs for example are cursed and theres some others like darathar but w/e</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Any other mob which is good VS peircing, for example CL epic, Lagoon epic etc. I pown all others in my way.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Warlocks and Wizards in raids are primarily used for Feeding power to our Main tank and some of our healers in my guild, therefore their DPS is severly gimped.</DIV> <DIV>Wizards kinda suck.... but warlocks yes they can do potentially more dps then us, but in raids i never see them do more dps so w/e there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2nd Zerkers, They do decent dps for a tank type class no where near assassins or bruisers. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardians, Hell no hell no and lastly hell no, NO WAY Guardians EVER did more dps then me on a raid. They did sometimes while leveling up in EF because i was [Removed for Content] then, but now that im upgrades aint a chance in hell theyll do more dps then me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bruisers, now this is a interesting Class. Usually we stick our bruiser in our Main tank group with the troubatour and zerker, therefore their Buffed to hell and can do more dps then me by a 20dps or so amount. </DIV> <DIV>BUT when there in the same group as me, har har... unless if its a peirce resistant mob, i pown the bruiser by 20-50 dps on raids =) ON every occasion. I actually teased this bruiser about it by sending him tells with the parse and he got mad at me said i was annoying haha . Bruiser pride got hurt i guess.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>O i almost forgot the other scout classes, brigand, swash, blah blah, they should not stand a chance at all, they are way below bruisers and sometimes even below zerkers. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok im ready to accept flames, lemmie think on which ones i may get.... You post positive things like this and make the devs think theres nothing wrong with us, Screw you Radatat. first flame done</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ur full of BS and dont know what ur talking about you newb 2nd flame done.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ok enough with that, hopefully no one flames now and gives positive feedback.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How do i get so much DPS. Lets look in at that shall we. Im going to Show you my exact strategy on raids, many of you may call it bs w/e.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Haste = good. T5 withering spirit Poison = good, GEBS = good, Robe of invoker =good..... although i have the best medium BP in game called Irradiated chestguard of blackknight... wish it was feasible to use over 20 power regen but its not, SOE needs to add power regen to a medium BP.</DIV> <DIV>ALso any other power regen rings or w/e = good. Power regen is key its the most important thing atm.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With that said, Weapons, slower weapons with higher damage = better then 2 1.2 or 1.3 delay weapons... WHY u ask? Because You can only swing so fast, self hasted my toons at about 70-80% self haste which means those 1.2 weapons are supposed to swing every .3 seconds or so and we know they dont. THats because I belive theres a minimum swing rate and u cant go past it. With that knowledge in hand, i use 2 ebon leaf blades. 2.1 delay and VERY high damage which enables me to do 60-110 damage a swing with each weapon. i do each swing it seems faster then 1 second delay with my self hastes, add that to any other haste the group adds, which is almost always such as berzerker haste, inquisitor haste dirge haste etc, and ur looking at SUPER fast swings on slow delay weapons. Also this maximizes the damage i do in between Skills because when i spam skills i donly have time for 1 swing or so anyways before i spam another skill. So this = maximizing damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Whew that was alot of typing. ok Step 3. Use Murdurous focus = the win. Use this when ur kinda low on power or right after u used Bloodthirster and condeming blade, Use this in conjuction with ur other BLoodlines quest given self haste and just melee attack mainly. Ull do 120 damage a swing for each weapon. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, whats prolly our best skill.... PUNCH BLADE FOR THE WIN!!!!</DIV> <DIV>I cant stress how important this skill is, spam this as much as possible over any other skill. Read the discription, reduces Defense by 36ish poison debuff and pieirce debuff not to mention the 400 damage or so itll dish out at adept 1. also it has the same recast as mask of night. </DIV> <DIV>After using this skill it Severly reduces the mobs Avoidance ratting to the point where u never miss a swing, this in itself adds a Buttload to our DPS. not to mention the raids DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Poison poison ...poison... i shouldnt have to say anymore.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>lingering blow is prolly one of our most efficient damage/power ratio skill.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BOW skills =) Adept 3 all 3 of them if u know whats good for u. Each one of these is like a mini bloodthirster damage and power wise. use these well for they are prolly some of our best skills. not to mention they have a higher chance to proc a poison or proc from it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ok, now im going to go over weapon. Gleaming strike for the win!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I use 2 pristine IMBUED ebon leafblades, 1 IMBUED cedar long bow. = 3 procs = Alot of pownage, each procs about 200-250 damage and i proc sooo often its not even funny.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also use a pristine imbued ruby ring of stam and a same of STR. ( im 200 agility already so didnt really need more)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>also i use 2 str hex dolls or 2 stam dolls, atm i do stam cause str doesnt really affect dps in this game atm, waiting on the live update for that =).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ok so if u follow my lead. you should be doing more dps then anyone. GL guys hope this helps. i prolly missed something. if i did ill add it.</DIV>

[InuyMa]

I'm going to flame you, but not for you views (I'll leave that for other people). Your writing style makes my eyes bleed. And it's "Pwn" not "Pown". PS: Random capitalization sucks. PSS: Type out your [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] words. I hate "Ur", and "W/e" <div></div>

[ERROR]

wow... thank you. I'm a lvl 41 Assassin right now, so I hope all that you've said applys to my level aswell. I was pretty upset once I hit lvl 36 or so because I was being out DPS's by lower lvl tanks, but at this level, my DPS is coming back around. I liked that you explained all that in detail. I can totaly see your point about the weapon delays VS damage output. Infact, I'm headed back to town right now to pickup 2 new weapons with high output/long delay to test your theory. Anyway, just wanted to say that you make a very good point about the weapon delays VS our self haste buffs. I'll parse tonight with the new weapons and let you know how it went for me. thanks again, It's always better to hear that there's light at the end of the tunnel, rather then just a long black hole. <div></div>

[Sarevh]

DPS logs would be nice. and also slower delay weapons proc more than faster delay weapons. so if you haste a coupple of imbued leafblades that would help granted. and now that poisons actually proc on epic mobs we have gained some dps from that. As it has been said its a start, but i don't believe we can out dps berserkers and bruisers and any class that can use a crusing based weapon. <div></div>

[shebalse]

<DIV>ill post some DPS logs tonight =)</DIV> <DIV>What format would u like it? Combat stats where i type control v to paste the results of 6 people? ill have the 6 people bruiser, zerker, guardian, swash, and prolly a warlock for kicks.</DIV>

[shebalse]

<DIV>I'm going to flame you, but not for you views (I'll leave that for other people). Your writing style makes my eyes bleed. And it's "Pwn" not "Pown".<BR><BR>PS: Random capitalization sucks.<BR><BR>PSS: Type out your [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] words. I hate "Ur", and "W/e"<BR></DIV> <DIV>From Inuymar</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Haha, funny =)</DIV>

[Kokus]

<DIV>Here is a parse, not of a raid encounter though, because it's usually one class or another getting screwed on being able to maximize their dps on any given mob(like Nagalik [Removed for Content] monks, Darathar [Removed for Content] scouts, etc.), and it can lag up my machine parsing it all. But here is a parse of a fight with Lord Everling in Nektropos 2.0. This is after all the adds were killed and we finally started in on the Lord himself.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>GRP 133887:57659:339.8<BR>HH Elvannshalee 2204:condemning blade<BR>Elvannshalee 52247:7104:132.6<BR>Monk 35682:7859:90.6<BR>Guardian 27196:28992:69.0<BR>Troubador 17981:6620:45.6<BR>Defiler 781:7084:2.0</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Was dual wielding a prismatic and an imbued ebon sai. Had Necropolis Sludge up for poison. I have Master 1 versions of Condemning Blade, Seeping Wound, Shadow Assault, and Assassin's Shot. Every other ability is adept 3 except for Mask of Night. (I'll upgrade it soon! Chill out!) <EM>Edit: Monk also has prismatic and similar quality gear to mine.</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When we entered in, from the very first fight everyone was talking about parsing. The monk was showing that his Attack was at 1036 or something, and mine was only 986. He and the Troubador both loaded up combat stats for the entire run through. I threw mine up after a couple of fights. What I noticed was that on the normal hallway pathers and such, the monk could outdamage me. We would literally split half of the fights on being the top dps for those fights, but it was always close. When he triggered my assassin's mark, it would be really hard to reclaim that top spot for that single fight. On the longer fights I would almost always take the lead. The monk would burn his power fast, even using an invoker robe, he'd burn himself out of power before I would. He might come in strong and do more damage in the first little while, but I'd always catch up and then surpass. I noticed that using Assassin's Shot (even though mine is a master 1 version) would drop my overall dps when competing with the monk. I had to stick with Faltering Blast and Spitting Viper. Faltering Blast had times where it was doing over 1500 damage because of the procs triggered off of the 2 arrows it fires. Never underestimate this skill, and its 20 second recast makes it that much more deadly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lord Everling was a pretty long fight(level 56 double up), and with the Guardian tanking, we both threw everything we had into him. We both ended up pulling aggro several times even though the Guardian has a master 1 taunt. But in the end, the numbers speak for themselves.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Kokusho on <span class=date_text>04-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:47 PM</span>

[InuyMa]

Single parses don't mean anything. When are people going to realize that? It's only been what? 7 years of EQ? <div></div>

[InuyMa]

Oh and how can you not count the adds? If you had would the monk have beaten you? Because it's kind of weird to parse one mob out of an entire group. <div></div>

[Sarevh]

<span><blockquote><hr>shebalseki wrote:<div>ill post some DPS logs tonight =)</div> <div>What format would u like it? Combat stats where i type control v to paste the results of 6 people? ill have the 6 people bruiser, zerker, guardian, swash, and prolly a warlock for kicks.</div><hr></blockquote>Whatever format you think will support your statements.</span><div></div>

[ERROR]

<span><blockquote><hr>InuyMarr wrote:Single parses don't mean anything. When are people going to realize that? It's only been what? 7 years of EQ? <div></div><hr></blockquote>She just got done explaining the whole raid to you. You want people to post 35 parses? You should probably just take her word for it.</span><div></div>

[InuyMa]

Guess you can't read. That wasn't a raid, it was a single group. It wasn't even a raid encounter, infact it wasn't even the whole encounter, just the main mob out of it. We have no idea what attacks the monk had to wait for refresh to use due to using them on the earlier adds. Nor do we have a good idea of who had more power when they started on Everling. Not to mention a large part of the problem is the extra long Epic x4 mobs because tank straight melee DPS is quite a bit better then ours. Yes i do want to have someone do 100 parses, then go through them to figure out what is going on. And not 100 random parses, 100 of exp mobs, or 100 of raid mobs, or 100 soloing. Not a mix. Because that's the only way to get even somewhat close to accurate information. This is freaking common knowledge by now. We've had over half a decade to refine what is necessary to get a more accurate picture. And if you are someone who can't deal with the lag to do that kind of parsing. Then don't comment on the raid aspect. Stick to single group encounters. But don't base it off one mob out of one encounter. <div></div>

[Kokus]

<DIV> <HR> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>Oh and how can you not count the adds? If you had would the monk have beaten you? Because it's kind of weird to parse one mob out of an entire group.</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Easy enough to answer. I'm level 50. I find that the best way to have combat stats continually reset itself after each encounter without manually typing /csm end is to have it reset on a mob's death. I had mini monitor running, and while we were killing the original adds, sure sometimes he had more, sometimes i had more, depends who was closest to the next mob targeted by the tank after one died usually. I felt the final parse with Lord Everling showed more meaingful data.</P>

[InuyMa]

All it did was show the data you wanted to make your point. One mob out of one encounter doesn't tell us anything. <div></div>

[Kokus]

<DIV>It's clear you're going to regard any information that contradicts your conclusion that tank classes outdamage us dubiously. While I will admit that on fights like Darathar, the only scouts you need are bards, there are also mobs like Lord Nagalik where the monk's job is to be feign'd with rez stones just in case. It's common knowledge that if a fighter class holds the same weapon as a scout, they will show more base damage on that weapon. Nothing is going to get around that fact. It's a problem. None of us like it, but in no way, shape, or form are we useless.</DIV>

[InuyMa]

Except I've said absolutely nothing in regards to whether tanks outdamage us. Just that your parsing was worthless in the context you presented it. And instead of monks on Nagalik, what about Berzerkers? Just to make a counter point. And no, we're not useless. But when you have 24 slots, and have to pick someone to sit out, we're the best, most logical choice. But no, not useless. <div></div>

[Kokus]

<DIV>So, you won't be happy until someone can show parsed information that shows an assassin, dealing more damage than any other class to a piercing immune epic mob?</DIV>

[InuyMa]

I won't be happy until someone has done enough extensive parsing to show me where we stand overall. Or at the very least, enough parses in exp groups to make a point (which i will make later). Or parsing enough of the different raids to show that while on a mob where we aren't smacked with immunities, we are doing very good dps, against immune mobs we are near the bottom. And due to the ratio of immune mobs to non-immune mobs, tanks are equal to us in DPS, and bring massive utility compared to us. Things like that are noteworthy, because it may not be that we need an upgrade, but that raid mob immunity should go away. Until then it's all conjecture. This is the kind of point that needs to be made. I've done about 200 parses against a guild paladin, to know that our DPS is way to close to his when he's not tanking. It's not that it's not better. It's that it's not enough better that i'd take me over him, because he brings so much else to the group. Doing 20 or 30 dps more then someone with one of the best combat resses, healing, and the ability to tank any mob that our main tank could tank doesn't matter. <div></div>

[shebalse]

<P>Ok this is a parse of CL this is edited cause i cant show u the whole picture cause guild strategy rule. Keep quiet hehe. as you can see this is CL epic. King zalak, this is during the WHOLE fight from start to finish. </P> <P>Radatat = assassin</P> <P>Sartuz = Zerker</P> <P>Towx = warlock</P> <P>Hoopdee = Swashbuckler</P> <P>Thakras = [Removed for Content] out guardian</P> <P>Jakik = bruiser but was afk at this raid</P> <P>As you can see Assassin powned completly.</P> <P><IMG src="http://www.overlordsofnorrath.com/assets/Guildlogos/raid1.gif"></P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Raid 2.  Lagoon instance .As you can see, I win again, over the bruiser too. This time around I was slacking alot cause i was on the phone and just barely beat the bruiser, the last time i parsed this i was about 30 dps over him. If we do this tomorrow night again ill show stats of me playing for real. Is this enough proof? if not ill post other senerios too np =)  BTW i didnt use assassinate once, i always forget actually since its so [Removed for Content] haha.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://www.overlordsofnorrath.com/assets/Guildlogos/raids2.jpg"></DIV><p>Message Edited by shebalseki on <span class=date_text>04-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:13 AM</span>

[InuyMa]

You people are hopeless. <div></div>

[ERROR]

Come up with something constructive to add please. <div></div>

[Mol]

<P><SPAN>Completely agree with inur, all of this proves nothing either way, we need large scale parsing to accurately determine dps.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Also if you think you proved anything with 2 parses of raid mobs, well I’m afraid you proved nothing other then your ability at self promoting yourself (in fact most of your post had a rather egotistical tone), I loved you mentioning about your dps being affected by slacking on the second mob, how did you know your fellow group members were not also slacking for this mob?, this is why a wider testing set is required to smooth out</SPAN><SPAN><SPAN>anomalies</SPAN></SPAN><SPAN> of this nature.</SPAN></P> <P> </P>

[Colossaltitan]

I knew it.<BR><BR>I knew for a fact that it couldn't all have been as bad as what everyone was saying it was.  Thanks for posting this, now I pray to god that people will stop whining so much about there class sucking, its not the class that sucks, but the player behind the class.

[InuyMa]

Fine, if this is how people are going to be. I'm going to make sure to parse, and each parse where some tank class beats me i'll post. And I will make sure not to post any data where I do better then the tanks. Are pretty pictures the only way to get it through your thick skulls that nothing posted here proves anything? <div></div>

[Gorhauth]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>shebalseki wrote:<div></div> <p>Ok this is a parse of CL this is edited cause i cant show u the whole picture cause guild strategy rule. Keep quiet hehe. as you can see this is CL epic. King zalak, this is during the WHOLE fight from start to finish. </p><p>As you can see Assassin powned completly.</p><hr></blockquote> Your experiences are vastly different from mine on this guy.  On Saturday (he was horridly bugged last night) our parses went like: SK:  260+ (RGF) Zerker:  250+ (RGF) Brawlers:  220+ (I think, need to verify) Assassin:  190+ I think Swash was at 200+.  I'm pretty sure I could up mine with new weapons (my piercers are low delay - need to upgrade to leafblades next time my weaponsmith is online), but I don't think that will make up for the 70+ difference between me and the SK. One of the problems with this fight (as well as many others), is that he is immune to one of our damage types (slash, thankfully), and resistant to the other.  He is either non-resistant or actually vulnerable to crush - add the crushing debuff from one of the brawlers (think it was bruiser, but I keep getting them confused <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) and crushing rips him apart.  Add that damage, and include the 67% haste from an illusionist, procs from a fury, etc and you have crushing classes that can shred him.</span><div></div>

[InuyMa]

One of the problems as well is, he posted one group out of entire raid. Which doesn't show much either. Just really, one parse doesn't prove anything. And you don't really start to see a trend til 50+ parses. I don't care if people want to have opinions. But don't point to a small group of parses as if they are factual information beyond that single set of fights. <div></div>

[shebalse]

<DIV>Those pareses is NOT from a single group. Its from Raids and each member is in different groups. Parsers are not limited to single groups anymore. Also, some of you guys are very negative about everything and there will be no way to satisfy you. I understand this, I  showed these parses because they were requested. Once again i will ask, how can i satisfy you to the point where you understand Assassin DPS is great. I did the parsing as requested what else you want? name it. As far as my post being egotistical? hell yes im egotistical, if you can do what other assassins cant, then you would sound egotistical also wouldnt you? Im proud of my DPS, proud of my class and proud of what i can do, those lines were in my first sentence of my original post =) </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a note, these parses was from 1 night, last night, they were not picked and choose outta many different encounters to satisfy my needs. I even posted the one in antonica where i had to get up during mid raid, go grab the phone and have a conversation with the person about cars heh. I showed even when i was slacking on one of them to show that i was at a loss of dps. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>O btw as far as the guy saying the parses he thinks he remembers, those you cant compare at all to mine. Mine is from the entire fight and was a victory. And yours what you think you remember was prolly only for about 4-5 min of the fight which u said he was horridly bugged and im assuming you lossed. also if you only parse for the first few minutes of the fight, then thats also not accurate because i can do a assassinate, CD BD arrow skills then /csm end parser. ill have over 1000dps this way. So show only whole encounters, even parts of encounter where you have to wait for certain mobs to come.</DIV><p>Message Edited by shebalseki on <span class=date_text>04-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:37 AM</span>

[Gorhauth]

Reread my post.  That was a win for us, and the only damage I didn't remember was the brawlers and the swash.  The SK was at 265, the zerker at 259 and the assassin at 193.  The fight that was bugged was on Sunday night, so I didn't parse that one.  Reading comprehension is your friend <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> You did less damage than I did, and the people you picked to parse were way under those in my raid (I didn't think it was physically possible for a zerker to parse under 200).  I don't think you are as good as you think you are, and our DPS is still anemic on some encounters because of resists/immunities. It helps the community a lot when you dont look at microcosms.  Take everything into account, and you will see the full picture.  Because you manage to out DPS people who obviously have no clue what they are doing does not mean we are not broken. <div></div>

[shebalse]

<DIV>Sigh, you still dont understand, ill try to clear it up more gently for you. Having 200+ dps dont mean [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] on raids, its not about having 300+ 400 + or w/e because that all differs depending on what strat ur guild uses for epic bosses. What really matters is the individual comparison on the parser. For example bud, Im fighting some boss mob called xyz, for first 20 seconds were all meleeing it, then our strategy calls for it to be kited around, during this time no one is really hitting it but the kiter and some casters mabie. During this time the Damager per second number will go down of course where as a raid strat that doesnt call for  kiting will not be affected, therefore having 200+ or w/e does not matter. What does matter though is the ratio of the DPS. thats what matters. </DIV> <DIV>You said you did less dps then i did, mabie cause we use different strats the damage per second mabie lower??? Thinking is your friend. :smileyhappy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for your other entries past the line , not possible for zerker to parse under 200, well i think i just explained that fairly well. if not ill add in another example for you to think about, just lemmie know. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you think im not as good as i think i am, hell thats fine your entitled to your opinions. I show pictures and not made up parses. You show what you think might have been parses but you dont remember too well. <BR>It helps the community a lot when you actually show how you play your class, and what type of weapons you use and such like i did. BTW, i may play with people who obviously dont know their classes, but if im the one out damageing them all and you cant out damage a single person, what does that make you? a person who doesnt know how to play their class perhaps? i mean a sk AND a swash beat you. thats sad. hehe.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text>Also if you havent noticed, I parsed those epics from start to finish. Not just 1 mob, but from the time when the first person pulled to when the last mob was dead. You can see the damage in total for each person Not just DPS which dont mean squat alone</SPAN></DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by shebalseki on <span class=date_text>04-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:07 PM</span>

[InuyMa]

Apologize if that was a raid parse, the format didn't really say. And it was like 3am when i was posting. And you hit the nail on the head. It does change due to raid format and strats. But here is the thing, should the strat determine whether a DPS class is ontop of the DPS list? Or should the class determine? I'll tell ya the answer. It's number 2. If using a different strat makes Assassin's DPS plummet, then there is a problem with the class. <div></div>

[A]

Dps should be inherent to the class, not inherent to the strategy. Proper dps analysis should try to maximize opportunities for each class. For example, max possible buffs for each class, max possible opportunity to deal damage, best possible weapons, etc (you get the idea). So under optimal situation (assuming it is easy to replicate), we start parsing the dps for each class and try to get some statistics. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We can always come up with a strategy that all the fighters sit on the bench while assassins go to work. I am sure assassins would be champion of dps every time <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[ERROR]

<span>I don't agree with that at all. The tools should be available to produce dps, but taking the </span><span>strategy out of it is just silly. </span><span><blockquote><hr>Aph wrote:Dps should be inherent to the class, not inherent to the strategy.<hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Klip]

<DIV>My own experience tells me that I have a hard time being above other classes, but Shebalseki's posts are enough to state that it is POSSIBLE to sustain a higher dps than other classes. Yes, one raid fight may not be enough to assume the class as a whole, yes, a whole night of xp grinding may be a better parse data(would be cool if you would take a night to parse it Shebalseki), yes, the other players might have been slacking off(although I doubt it on a raid mob), but it shows that its possible to have a high dps. <BR><BR>I'm assuming that the other players in Sebalski's parses are comparible to his own skills and equipment, but the only other problem would be if shebalseki was making up his numbers, which it does not seem so with the screenshots etc. However amount of data that shows that assassins are lower dps than other classes does NOT matter. If Shebalseki can prove that the UPPER limit on an average xp grind, then its just a matter of everyone else trying to get their equipment on par, and their skills comparible. People saying they should post logs that show them doing less dps than other classes is sad... it just shows their lack of skills as an assassin. I, for one, will have to go get a leafblade to replace my kris and a str doll instead of my sta one. <BR><BR></DIV>

[Kokus]

<DIV>Ok, here are some parses for ya:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>King Zalak</DIV> <DIV>GRP 234913:11395:538.8<BR>HH Wizard 3227:ice comet<BR>Elvannshalee 61251:2305:140.5<BR>Swashbuckler 45210:4205:103.7<BR>Assassin 37765:3773:86.6<BR>Necromancer 35299 (14760):0:81.0<BR>Necro's pet 14760:0:33.9<BR>Wizard 33863:602:77.7<BR>Guardian 21525:510:49.4</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://home.comcast.net/~raleldorjax/EQ2/zalakstats.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Borxx:</DIV> <DIV>Dresden=swashy</DIV> <DIV>Tages=zerker</DIV> <DIV>Nodeus=necro</DIV> <DIV>Durrel=wizzie</DIV> <DIV>Stardog=bruiser</DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://home.comcast.net/~raleldorjax/EQ2/borxxstats.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Steel Golem:</DIV> <DIV>GRP 90109:13050:726.7<BR>HH Elvannshalee 2967:assassinate<BR>Elvannshalee 24797:4391:200.0<BR>Bruiser 20103:1419:162.1<BR>Zerker 19310:952:155.7<BR>Swashbuckler 16016:0:129.2<BR>Necromancer 9883 (3533):6288:79.7<BR>Necro's pet 3533:6288:28.5</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://home.comcast.net/~raleldorjax/EQ2/golemstats.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Niscanith:</DIV> <DIV>GRP 178625:4792:783.4<BR>HH Wizard 2870:ice comet<BR>Warlock 34717:654:152.3<BR>Elvannshalee 33680:0:147.7<BR>Bruiser 32537:1689:142.7<BR>Swashbuckler 29394:1028:128.9<BR>Wizard 27777:0:121.8<BR>Necromancer 20520 (6426):1421:90.0<BR>Necro's pet 6426:0:28.2</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://home.comcast.net/~raleldorjax/EQ2/niscanithstats.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Vanudozalon:</DIV> <DIV>GRP 174436:3249:872.2<BR>HH Elvannshalee 3314:assassinate<BR>Warlock 36425:0:182.1<BR>Elvannshalee 33784:0:168.9<BR>Bruiser 31994:820:160.0<BR>Wizard 24465:0:122.3<BR>Swashbuckler 24105:0:120.5</DIV> <DIV>Zerker 23663:2429:118.3</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://home.comcast.net/~raleldorjax/EQ2/vanudozalonstats.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR>Trendaloz:</DIV> <DIV>GRP 182871:3451:1057.1<BR>HH Wizard 2306:ice comet<BR>Elvannshalee 41102:1526:237.6<BR>Bruiser 35814:1925:207.0<BR>Swashbuckler 32984:0:190.7<BR>Warlock 30887:0:178.5<BR>Berserker 23230:0:134.3<BR>Wizard 18854:0:109.0</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://home.comcast.net/~raleldorjax/EQ2/trendalozstats.jpg"></DIV><p>Message Edited by Kokusho on <span class=date_text>04-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:26 PM</span>

[InuyMa]

<div></div>Ok. So gonna try this another way. Lets take your parses at face value, and say they are an accurate representation of how we do in comparison to other classes. Do you honestly think that with all the utility we give up, and the massive, MASSIVE advantage Bruisers have in the tanking department, that they should come that close to us? And btw, that first Zalak parse seems a bit funky. Oh and are these group or raid? But anyway. This doesn't really prove anything, but you should really ponder the first question. Because it's not even a matter of whether we outdamage tanks or not. It's a matter of their DPS being so close to ours, that the other things they bring to the table torches our class. And i'm not going to go into the issues with Warlocks and Wizards out damaging us, because people seem to think our mitigation and avoidance still matter. Edit: I can't type. <div></div><p>Message Edited by InuyMarr on <span class=date_text>04-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:46 PM</span>

[InuyMa]

Oh and to Error, just go away. If you think DPS should be influenced more by the strategy then the class then you have no idea how MMO's work. DPS classes HAVE to be the top of the list, no matter what. <div></div>

[Kokus]

<DIV>All of those parses are raid wide. I grabbed 5 other classes for each one to compare damage. All have prismatics and are otherwise similarly equipped. In the fight where the bruiser comes very close to (within 5 dps) he had a zerker in his group, and mine was sacrificed on the pull and was never rezzed and zerkers add alot to melee dps. With the zalak encounter, the wizard shot ahead of everyone in dps, but after the adds were gone, and on the main fight, I just tore ahead of him.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit: and I also agree that bruisers/monks should not be coming close to our dps.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Kokusho on <span class=date_text>04-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:47 AM</span>

[Mol]

<DIV>The problem here is Your looking at a single mob as being the end all be all of raids when in fact killing adds or clearing a path is very much part of the raid, and this is where zerkers and other AE classes will become superior, your results are nice to see though and im not sure how possible it would be for a parser to show dps over the course of an entire raid rather then one mob but i bet it would change some opinions. Also i noticed you used assassinate on 2 of the parses you would have otherwise lost, while its a valid skill i still consider it fluff and is not really accurate in showing our standing as dps in an entire raid context.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All in all it is nice to see some hard figures, could use more of these though, maybe we could start 2 threads, 1 for raid stats,  1 for group stats so we can finally see where we do stand for dps as we certainly wont get any help from SOE while we argue amongst ourselves.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the point about skill being involved in dps, yes i agree it should be a factor, however it shouldnt lower us below fighters, it should just put us at the high end of the scout dps scale imo, lets face it what skill is there for casters? they just click and go so why should we hinder ourselves further then we already are?.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Molak on <span class=date_text>04-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:28 AM</span>

[Putka]

<P>Thanks Elvannshalee, you're my hero <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> /notworthy</P> <P>I have to say I actually did fall for all the whines about sucking in raids. And no, I dont care about being useless on piercing immune raids. I accept the fact that these [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] mobs are immune to it, and thus you need to put a different kind of group together. Thats the whole point.. I also don't care that fighters can "simply switch to the type of weapon needed for the mob" because thats what they're about.. they sacrifice offense for a wider variety of weapons. Well thats the way I see it anyway, you dont have to agree <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</P> <P>And about bruisers coming close with DPS, yeah I do think they come a bit too close, but as long as they don't consistently outDPS me I dont really care about it. I rolled an assassin cause I thought I'd really enjoy playing one, and I do.. and if I can outdamage other people in most cases, even better <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</P>

[Kizee]

<P>Off topic but Kokusho... where did you get that parcer that you can make a combat window in EQ2 at?</P> <P>I like how that is set up.</P> <P>Thanks</P> <DIV> </DIV>

[shebalse]

<DIV>Good parses. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BTW inuy, really man, what your asking for sounds very newbish to me. You want the assassin class to be a brainless class that can auto attack and basically out damage anyone. Thats what it sounds like. If your into the games where strategy and skill arnt a factor, i think god of war is the game for you. Mabie even WoW. I personally love how DPS differs in the same class depending on how well you customize your characters equipment and Style of game play. Im an assassin, i devise ways to maximize dps by finding weak spots. If strategys such as debuffing a mob before attacking is too much for you to handle then you dont belong an assassin.</DIV>

[InuyMa]

<div></div>Do you smoke crack? You must smoke crack if you think i commented at all on how Assassin's should do their DPS. Raid strategies are just that, raid strategies. It has nothing to do with how you personally play your class. If you originally did Fennin Ro in EQ1, it was a ranged fight. Classes like monks and rogues were typically useless. There were quite a few fights like this in EQ1's time, even up through Anguish. Same thing goes for MC in WoW, half the mobs have point blank AOE's and can't be melee'd without a healer dedicated to the rogue. You can play your own class as well as you want, but if a mob or a strategy for a mob tells you to do something that makes your DPS plummet. There is a problem with the mobs. Predators have one role on raids, to do DPS. We can't feed power, we don't get buffs, and scouting/tracking is useless. Now if you want my view on where Assassin's should be, here ya go. And once again note, i'm not asking for any changes to how the class is played, just lower reuse timers, and perhaps raising damage on CA's (actually i'd to have weapons modify our CA's as well, but that's a pipe dream. Odds are they will nerf Archery setting off our melee procs before they make weapons useful beyond that). Personally I think Assassin DPS needs to be higher then every other class due to requiring position, timing stealths, AE's breaking stealths, rhythm to play, and the double penalty on power due to being required to stealth to do some of our attacks. Not to mention the fact that we draw more agro then Wizards and Warlocks right now easily, and risk barrage hits due to being in melee range if a mob turns on someone else. Oh have  i mentioned that our DPS also plummets if a mob decides to chase someone, while  a Warlock and Wizard can just stand and cast? (And this doesn't include minor annoyances like step out of melee range to use bow abilities on occasion) If SoE paid attention they'd see that Medium armor doesn't mean anything to us, as most Assassin's will gladly sacrifice mitigation for things like power regen. In closing, the only newb in this conversation is you. I am making valid points about parsing and gameplay. Until now, I really didn't give an opinion on the state of the game, besides the fact that I feel tanks are to close to our DPS. You on the other hand, barely even speak english. <div></div><p>Message Edited by InuyMarr on <span class=date_text>04-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:54 AM</span>

[khalysta]

<DIV>The problem with lieutenants is they are one of the few that are very susceptible to pierce and just incredibly weak overall.  We did lts too last night I and the other assassin were up there at the top for every fight.  If every fight was like lieutenants and borxx then there would be no real issues.  The problem with these are you need new people at that point in the quest or 1 week for borxx while the instances are daily.  So to say we are a great class because we excel in 1 of 4 instances, on a few out of many contested and on 3 mobs that you need people at that point in deception to do is not exactly a valid conclusion to me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When we went to do arch lich it was the exact opposite of the parses above.  A brand new zerker with few adept3s/masters and crummy weapons was 215dps to my 135.  Go to feerott and you get the same thing since the eye is pierce immune and the robot is a quick death.  Zalak I was also low but we kinda do zalak how we do zek which plays more into the hands of ae type classes than single target classes.  Our bruiser and top zerker have been semi-mia lately but they score far higher than the new one on most encounters and put the assassins to shame quite a bit more.<BR><BR></DIV> <DIV>So yes we rock on some encounters and all of the ones parsed above are some of my favorites because we excel but I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that we are in the right spot from a small portion of the raids because you go to vaz, asphyxia, zek, darathar, sol fist, arch lich and a few others and the picture is far more bleak than the picture painted above.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I posted this in another thread but the important thing to notice is how much stuff is pierce resistant/immune which works against us:</DIV> <DIV> <P>King Zalak - slash immune/pierce resist<BR>Arch Lich - pierce immune<BR>Overlord Oxulius - pierce immune<BR>Ragnog - crush immune/pierce resistant<BR>Xiggalg - pierce/slash resistant<BR>Lord Nagalik - crush resistant<BR>Acrimoniad - pierce immune<BR>Kra`thuk - slash immune<BR>Borxx - pierce does extra damage<BR>Asphyxia - slash immune, pierce literally hits for 1/3 or less of normal even with piercing faith and all debuffs on.  Condeming blade for example often hits for 300 and one time hit for 74 compared to 1700+ on a "normal" mob<BR><BR>Hand of caldera - pierce immune/slash resist<BR>King zatan - pierce is good on him and think he is slash immune<BR>Zek instance - the ^^^ in each wave is pierce immune but tremblar is pierceable.  This encounter is all about the first 3 waves and dps of the guild so scouts are a disadvantage here if they can't really damage the main blob very well.<BR>Vazgok - pierce immune/ very slash resistant<BR>Venekor - slash immune/slightly pierce resistant<BR>Vox - slash immune<BR>Darathar - pierce immune/extreme slash resistance<BR>Solusek's fist - pierce immune/extreme slashing resistant<BR><BR>Notice how crush hits like everything <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif" width=16 border=0> So in other words a good crush weapon like the one flail(I forget its name royal great flail?) that hits for 500ish on a zerker/bruiser is going to do serious damage on almost every encounter where a good piercer or slasher only does well on a handful of non resistant/immune mobs.</P></DIV><p>Message Edited by khalysta on <span class=date_text>04-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:28 AM</span>

[InuyMa]

And Khalysta hits the nail on the head. But that's expected. <div></div>

[Graton]

<span><blockquote><hr>Sarevhok wrote:DPS logs would be nice. and also slower delay weapons proc more than faster delay weapons. so if you haste a coupple of imbued leafblades that would help granted. and now that poisons actually proc on epic mobs we have gained some dps from that. As it has been said its a start, but i don't believe we can out dps berserkers and bruisers and any class that can use a crusing based weapon. <div></div><hr></blockquote> that's actually not true. procs are determined within a given time frame and the % chance per swings goes up on lower dly weapons, goes down on higher delay weapons. what is adds up to is you have say a 5% chance to proc your  PGT / poison / etc inside a 3 second window or some such. There's a detailed post on how procs work at www.scoutssanctuary.com that you can check out that showed this.</span><div></div>

[Gorhauth]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>khalysta wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div><div><p>Notice how crush hits like everything <img src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif" border="0" height="16" width="16"> So in other words a good crush weapon like the one flail(I forget its name royal great flail?) that hits for 500ish on a zerker/bruiser is going to do serious damage on almost every encounter where a good piercer or slasher only does well on a handful of non resistant/immune mobs.</p></div><hr></blockquote> That is the Royal Great Flail (RGF from my original post).  That weapon has incredible damage, and if you stack it with an Illusionist's 67% haste, bard hastes, Ancient ring hastes and FBSS, you have a damage dealing machine that can withstand a riposte or two.  That (and the procs from a 50 fury) are what gave the SK and zerker in my post the DPS they had.</span><div></div>

[Gorhauth]

<span><blockquote><hr>Graton wrote:<span>that's actually not true. procs are determined within a given time frame and the % chance per swings goes up on lower dly weapons, goes down on higher delay weapons. what is adds up to is you have say a 5% chance to proc your  PGT / poison / etc inside a 3 second window or some such. There's a detailed post on how procs work at www.scoutssanctuary.com that you can check out that showed this.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote> I have the exact opposite experience of procs.  We tested this out to determine group makeup, I used a pair of 1.2 daggers and fighters used slow two handed crushers (RGF).  Using group buffs and my self buffs, the fighters proc'd more than I did.  It might have been a bad day for me (same thing happens on loot rolls, one day win nothing, next day win everything), but that was conclusive enough to make sure the fighters get the chanters and furies if we have too many to fit scouts in there also.</span><div></div>

[Kokus]

<DIV> <HR> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>Off topic but Kokusho... where did you get that parcer that you can make a combat window in EQ2 at?</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Using combat stats from <A href="http://www.combatstats.com/" target=_blank>http://www.combatstats.com</A> and using the mini monitor option which puts that window over EQ2.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And those parses show the entire encounter, including adds when applicable like with Zalak and Borxx. I'll parse Darathar tonight to show how useless we can be though =)</DIV>

[Kokus]

<DIV>Molak said:</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>Also i noticed you used assassinate on 2 of the parses you would have otherwise lost, while its a valid skill i still consider it fluff and is not really accurate in showing our standing as dps in an entire raid context.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On the first parse that shows me using assassinate, subtract the damage it dealt and don't even add another ability I could of used instead and I still would of had the top spot. As for the 2nd time, the bruiser would of outdamaged me without it... kinda.. That fight was just borked because our group (the scout group) were without our berserker that entire fight while that bruiser had full buffs for himself. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Kokus]

<DIV>And one final thing to comment about.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm really surprised that noone noticed that I parsed another assassin in the Zalak fight. And noone commented on the damage that assassin did in comparison to the others I parsed in the raid.</DIV>

[Kven]

<DIV>Just thought I would post a thought.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm only currently level 45, with a few adept III's (mainly Bloodthirster / Condemning Blade, Mask of Night is being made tonight, but still can't use it yet <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I use pristine imbued ebon spatha and pristine imbued ebon kris.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have yet to be outdamaged by any class except a wizard, or unless I get aggro'd on (which , *cough* without evade working like it should, it pretty often).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When I stay under the aggro scope, I win ... every time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Permafrost is where I was last night really testing some parses... I'll post some later.  I really destroyed the rest even w/o assassin's mark proccing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We aren't as bad off as people think, assuming you know how to play the class combos and not just button-mash.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also am a HO ho, so I don't button mash for that reason especially... I just know my combos.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just need some [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] cedar now so I can upgrade my bow argh!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'll post some parses later.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do I think we're in our finished state? hell no... lot of work to do, but a lot of people that complain about DPS also don't know the class as well as they think.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We do OK.  Khalysta has very good info about the high end raids, I'm merely talking straight exp group parses.</DIV>

[InuyMa]

Figured the other Assassin was AFK or really got nailed by AE's while trying to stealth or something odd. Didn't really matter since it was obviously an oddity. As for not being in bad shape in exp groups. It's hard to tell, because they tend to change often, and people get lazy. If you look at Khal's post outlining the melee resistant mobs, you'll understand why your experiences in groups have very little bearing on raids. And the opposite is true as well. <div></div>

[Graton]

<span><blockquote><hr>Gorhauth wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Graton wrote:<span>that's actually not true. procs are determined within a given time frame and the % chance per swings goes up on lower dly weapons, goes down on higher delay weapons. what is adds up to is you have say a 5% chance to proc your  PGT / poison / etc inside a 3 second window or some such. There's a detailed post on how procs work at www.scoutssanctuary.com that you can check out that showed this.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote> I have the exact opposite experience of procs.  We tested this out to determine group makeup, I used a pair of 1.2 daggers and fighters used slow two handed crushers (RGF).  Using group buffs and my self buffs, the fighters proc'd more than I did.  It might have been a bad day for me (same thing happens on loot rolls, one day win nothing, next day win everything), but that was conclusive enough to make sure the fighters get the chanters and furies if we have too many to fit scouts in there also.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote> There was in fact a Dev comment where they clearly stated that delay did not affect proc rate because the % change according to delay to create a fixed percentage in a given period of time. Here it is, with much discussion: http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=items&message.id=30169&view=by_date_ascending&page=1 </span><div></div>

[A]

<P>Hi Skrew:</P> <P>You are right. I made a mistake claiming that "strategy" should not be taken into account when comparing class dps. What I meant to say was "raid/group" stratgies should not be taken into account. Take the following situation as an example:</P> <P>Suppose you have 1 raid mob and 50 different "raid strategies" to kill it. With some strategies, you get 0 dps because the strategy works against you (but hey, the raid can still kill the mob). And with others, you out-dps everything else. Is there a "right" strategy out of these 50? I doubt it, because they can all kill the target mob.</P> <DIV>On the other hand, "class strategy" is vital in dps comparison. While there may still be many strategies to play your class, lets just pick one that output the best dps. If every class does this and after some rounds of statistics, then we would have valid dps data to compare.</DIV>

[Kokus]

<DIV>Well I said I would post a parse with Darathar.. but... I got dropped for the raid because.. *drum roll* I'm a scout.</DIV>

[khalysta]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kokusho wrote:<BR> <DIV>Well I said I would post a parse with Darathar.. but... I got dropped for the raid because.. *drum roll* I'm a scout.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>see I don't lie when I say its honestly a good choice for a raid leader to boot a scout.  In fact it is on certain encounters like darathar and thats what is so frustrating about immunities.  The difficulty should be in the overall encounter design not what classes can or can't hit it but hopefully for stuff like dara and a few of the other resistant mobs things will be a bit brighter for us in the near future <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[InuyMa]

All debates aside, that blows. Really never liked the idea of immunities that disregard entire classes, this goes for the Wizard issues as well. Don't understand why they do it. <div></div>

[ERROR]

A bit off topic for this forum, but I believe it has a place in this thread, while we're saying that it's smart to ditch scouts on raids. I'm not agrueing that fact btw... My question is... would it be smart to ditch a troub or a dirge on a raid, or would they help the party still at that level. The reason I'm asking this here is because I just rolled a bard and I don't really feel like asking in the bard forums because I believe I would get biased answers. Would we get dropped for a bard in a heartbeat, or what? <div></div>

[Sarevh]

Bards and troubs are the only classes in the scout line that still have alot of usefullness when facing a shashing/piercing resistant mob because of all the buffs you guys get. <div></div>

[Gorhauth]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kvenau wrote: <div>I have yet to be outdamaged by any class except a wizard, or unless I get aggro'd on (which , *cough* without evade working like it should, it pretty often).</div> <div> </div> <div>When I stay under the aggro scope, I win ... every time.</div> <div> </div> <div>Permafrost is where I was last night really testing some parses... I'll post some later.  I really destroyed the rest even w/o assassin's mark proccing.</div><hr></blockquote>I'll look for my screenshots when I get home.  I was in a group in PF that we just went to see how much damage we could do.  As a group, we topped 1300 DPS more than once.  I did between 180-200, because stuff was dying so quick that I couldn't get any decent combinations off other than non-stealth ones.  The berserker and wizzy were topping 350, and the SK was over 300.  We had a bruiser that was in the 250 range.  Yup, in that group I was fourth... only people I beat were our healer (who didn't bother healing, he was there for buffs and procs) and our illusionist.  Even with respectable DPS, others destroy us in certain situations.  Oh, we were all 49 or 50 (wizzy, bruiser and me). DPS contribution is really dependant on circumstances.  It is based on gear, mobs, positioning, buffs, how lucky you are with procs, etc.  That alone makes it really difficult to believe that somebody wins every time they don't pull agro.</span><div></div>

[Gorhauth]

<span><blockquote><hr>Graton wrote:<span>There was in fact a Dev comment where they clearly stated that delay did not affect proc rate because the % change according to delay to create a fixed percentage in a given period of time. Here it is, with much discussion: http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=items&message.id=30169&view=by_date_ascending&page=1 </span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Thanks for the link, guess it is time to do more testing.</span><div></div>

[Kven]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gorhauth wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR>I'll look for my screenshots when I get home.  I was in a group in PF that we just went to see how much damage we could do.  As a group, we topped 1300 DPS more than once.  I did between 180-200, because stuff was dying so quick that I couldn't get any decent combinations off other than non-stealth ones.  The berserker and wizzy were topping 350, and the SK was over 300.  We had a bruiser that was in the 250 range.  Yup, in that group I was fourth... only people I beat were our healer (who didn't bother healing, he was there for buffs and procs) and our illusionist.  Even with respectable DPS, others destroy us in certain situations.  Oh, we were all 49 or 50 (wizzy, bruiser and me).<BR><BR>DPS contribution is really dependant on circumstances.  It is based on gear, mobs, positioning, buffs, how lucky you are with procs, etc.  That alone makes it really difficult to believe that somebody wins every time they don't pull agro.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Okay, now to clarify <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On the pulls of 3 that have no arrows, I usually use low damage CA's because my big one's aren't worth wasting, they just die too fast... I don't get highest damage on thoes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also didn't tell my groups 'Hey guys, let's all go all-out on damage and see how we stand in DPS ranks'.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just don't play in a lethargic manner, I'm always trying to maximize my DPS in a group on every pull (minus the ones I described above).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Over the next few days, I'll let the groups know that I'm parsing and WANT them to try to beat me.  That will be much more fair to them and to me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So my apologies to those that thought I felt we needed no DPS upgrades or changes... we more than certainly do <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'll get some parses of groups trying to beat me soon.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[InuyMa]

Good man. Controlling the environment and variables leads to much better parses. <div></div>

[shebalse]

<DIV>Heres another parse this one is the ring drakota in fallen gate. Once again, This is from start to finish. Everyone parsed were trying their best of course cause i told them they would be parsed. ETC the usual stuff.</DIV> <DIV>Radatat = Assassin thats me =)</DIV> <DIV>Kiladar = zerker</DIV> <DIV>Stylin = Swashbuckler</DIV> <DIV>Sartuz = zerker</DIV> <DIV>Azadon = zerker</DIV> <DIV>Rofo = assassin</DIV> <DIV>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV>This assassin uses a SBD with a SSOY/bone razor. As you can see, he sucks compared to me. I think this is how many of you guys prolly parse. just like rofo. Way below everyone else. This shows how 2 assassins can be totally different. Anyone who complains saying assassin DPS sucks. Well you are most likely equiped like rofo is. P.S. i understand mobs like darathar we cant do any dps on, as this does suck, theres only a couple mobs where were totally useless and this should be fixed. ill add more parses as I get them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://www.overlordsofnorrath.com/assets/Guildlogos/Raid2.jpg"></DIV>

[khalysta]

<P>you sure you aren't blocking skills of the other assassin?  I have used an sbd/ssoy on the lts and gone well above 200 on those because they are a joke and have low ac and low piercing resistance.</P> <P>The difference though looks more like that assassin can't use skills because he/she is using non adept3/master skills.  We have 3 assassins in my guild.  One assassin and I work together to make sure we upgrade at the same time to adept 3 on debuff based skills like cb, bloodthirster, infected wound etc.  So now if you parse us against the third who is missing a lot of adept3s due to low playtime but has ebon weapons he is still way low and looks like rofo.  The skill stacking is a huge issue so assassins need to work together to upgrade rather than alone which is why I won't take a master skill with a debuff because then it hurts the two others rather than helping the guild overall on a raid.</P>

[Putka]

Ok this Rofo is pathetic.. 125 dps? That was my average in exp groups at what.. lv35? Either his CAs were blocked like Khalysta said or he seriously needs to uhh learn how to play <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Oh or maybe he's one of THOSE that say  "nah I don't use poison, it just gives me too much aggro"  or  "hm I haven't raised my ranged skill over 75 yet".  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[shebalse]

<DIV>Good point made khalsta, ill check with em cause that may be the case.</DIV><p>Message Edited by shebalseki on <span class=date_text>04-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:11 AM</span>

[scivias]

Uhm.. just since when do chests drop actual money to be split? <div></div>

[shebalse]

<DIV>The leutenant drakota, i prolly spelled leutenant wrong but w/e, but yeah they all drop coin. Also so does darathar.</DIV>

[Kizee]

<P>Dunno... I have been disapointed with my class lately. Even moreso last night in perma when the group brigand was out DPSing me almost every fight.</P> <P>I was debuffing the mob to crap before I unloaded (using 2 pristine imbued ebon sai), using bowstyles (pristine imbued cedar long bow),  a debuff poision and a DD poison and most of the time he would out DPS me. Hell... even the pali was comming close to my dps (but he was 2 levels higher).</P> <P>It just pisses me off that you have to play at the top of your game (be in the right position all the time) , pay for posions, and pay for arrows just to compete with people that stand in front of a mob and button mash. :smileysad:</P> <P>IMO assassins should be the dps kings of melee since they have zero utiltity . I am hoping for the best the next couple of patches when SOE tweaks damage and the combat system.</P>

[Tazzrin]

Yo! For real, I've never ever seen coin drop on any encounter. If in a raid and the raid looter opens the chest, does the group that the raid looter is in get the money or does the whole raid get the split?

[khalysta]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tazzrin wrote:<BR>Yo! For real, I've never ever seen coin drop on any encounter. If in a raid and the raid looter opens the chest, does the group that the raid looter is in get the money or does the whole raid get the split? <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Whole raid if the option is set for split.  Only 4 encounters in the whole game drop money and all 4 are part of deception.</P> <P> </P> <P>And now back on topic:</P> <P>There is hope for the future!<BR><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=45984#M45984" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=45984#M45984</A></P> <p>Message Edited by khalysta on <span class=date_text>04-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:38 PM</span>

[Tazzrin]

Khalysta, you just helped us see the light at the end of the tunnel! This just backs up the point that with enough [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]in, it causes enough pressure on the devs to act accordingly and see that the demands of our class are met! I propose a toast!

[khalysta]

<P>From the Test Update #8:</P> <P>- The melee resistances of epic bosses are now better balanced. An opponent that is immune to one damage type (such as slashing) should no longer have high resistance to another damage type (such as piercing).<BR>- In addition to their normal loot, many epic bosses now drop new types of rare items unique to each encounter. Please note that these new treasures will be very rare and will not drop every time an encounter is defeated.</P> <P> </P> <P>See life is getting good and maybe there will even be some good scout loot in there <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Kokus]

<DIV>I dunno about that scout loot thing. The only thing we ever see is fabled 2 handers and light armor =  (and the light armor has more mitigation than PF ebon but.. it's light.. so.. grats monks/druids...)</DIV>