Are assassins worth it? [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

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ins4nity11

04-17-2005, 07:44 AM

<DIV>Ok, here is the deal, i have a 16 pred, who just betrayed from qeynos. I have been hearing everyone in game talking about how much dmg assassins do, but on the forums, everyone complains about it. I just wanted to know, if assassins suck, and I should just make a bruiser instead? Thx.</DIV>

khalysta

04-17-2005, 09:15 AM

<DIV>That is a hard question to answer honestly. The assassin right now if you want raw melee dps is underperforming to fighters in many cases. However the game is still highly in flux and still evolving so to speak. So while the assassin might not be the flavor of the month for april/may that is always subject to change as further game mechanics are tweaked and balance is changed. So in all honesty play whichever style fits you best and stick with it because things are likely to change at some point no matter which class you choose.</DIV>

Syanis

04-17-2005, 11:13 AM

I have fun with my assassin at times. But its extremely frustrating when I see myself in higher end gear and being out dps'd by a fighter type lower level then me even. I have to burn everything including running multiple poisons to compete. Issue is after that fight some of my skills are down for 5 minutes so for the next 5 minutes I'm going to be out done by a fighter. I have to use poisons and arows which are consumeables besides food/drink same as fighters just to be able to compete on dps. If its a raid mob soon as I run oop my dps goes to zilch while fighters dps remains constant. Beserkers pulling 250 dps on a raid mob while myself pulling 1/3 of that if lucky. These days I just wish I still had my DAoC account. Flitch Flea 48 Assassin

ZaranilShadowfie

04-17-2005, 12:33 PM

<blockquote><hr>khalysta wrote:<div>That is a hard question to answer honestly. The assassin right now if you want raw melee dps is underperforming to fighters in many cases. </div><hr></blockquote>These "many" cases only take place at the end of the game. Even mid 40's an assassin can effortlessly outdamage a fighter. If you read all the complaints about assassin's on these forums you could easily get the mistaken impression that the class is absolutely worthless and that every dev goes out of his way to make sure the assassin is the worst it can be. My advice, enjoy your predator and soon to be assassin and have fun doing a good job at what you do. Don't let other's complaining bother you. If you go to any other class board, you will notice every class in this game is apparently broken and needs a complete overhaul. <div></div>

Kokus

04-17-2005, 02:47 PM

<DIV>Play the class if you think it's fun, but if you're looking for the 'best' class or to be some high end dps class, might want to look away from the scout class type in general.</DIV>

Aere

04-17-2005, 05:35 PM

First and foremost don't listen to the people complaining. As with anything in life, you always gonna find people complaining about something. People always want more, just the way life is. Assassins without question could be the top dps damage dealers going, but your still going to find people complaining, saying they just arn't good enough, and always want more. Along that line there is nothing wrong with assassin dps, i've said it time and again. 95% of those people continously crying about how bad fighters and how bad assassin dps is just don't know how to play their class. It's simple, real skill always comes down to the person at the keyboard. So if your in a group with a fighter out dpsing you, it's because the person at the keyboard is a little better then you, has nothing to do with the class. Those people you see complaining constantly about how much assassin dps sticks just need to simply reroll something else, they arn't true assassins at heart. On my server, I can't say I out dps every fighter every single time. the majority of the time however I do. With the really really good fighters that are excellent at the keyboard, sometimes they win a few rounds, sometimes i do. Again don't listen to those complaining about the dps. Again they really don't know how to play the class or just need to get much faster at the keyboard. Setting that dps bs aside, you should always be a leader anyway, not a follower. You should pick a class that not only provides you the best fun per time invested in game, but one that best suits your nature. Don't pick a class just because you think it will be the best in a certain area of the game. You will always find fault with it. Some people are just natural warriors, they got that gladitor feeling in their blood, when they watch rocky they get all sprung. Since I was in the military let me explain it this way. Some people's idea of fighting is putting a few million rounds down range to kill the enemy. Those people would naturally gravitate towards fighters in a game, hacking and slashing away, hearing the clang of swords banging together and bouncing off armor gives them complete joy. Others prefer the one shot, one kill, method. Snaking across an open field on their bellies, an inch at a time, taking them a complete day to cross a field that would take about 10 minutes to walk across. Just so they can set up for the perfect one shot kill. Those people would gravitate towards the assassin and scout classes in this type of game. (the main reason i'm an assassin) Also take into consideration the game is still young. Shadow knights in eq 1 were a perfect example. When first made everyone thought them horrible, no one played them. As the game progressed over time they tweaked the class, made improvements till finally you couldn't log into the game without tripping over an sk. So if you really like a class, even if it's not ideal at the moment, stay dedicated to it. It will improve over time. Lastly puttig this lengthy reply to rest, don't listen to the crybabies. Just play what's in your heart. Lets face it, if your gonna invest both time and money in a video game it has to be enjoyable for you. So if your going to log into a game for 2 hours or more you want that time to be spent in the most enjoyable way period. Pick the class that will be a means to that end, for you, not other people. Who really cares if 99 out of 100 people hate it, as long as you love it that is all that matters. So, again, be a leader, not a follower. And don't ever listen to people crying about dps, they are always going to find something about the class to cry about. once they fix one problem, they will just move on to another problem, or find something else about the class to cry about. So just play, have fun, and be yourself.

Klip

04-17-2005, 06:58 PM

Aereas, oh great one, would you mind enlightening us with your leet skills then? Other than having the best gear of your level, with imbued rare armor, imbued rare weps/heritage weps, imbued rare bow, hex dollX2, good jewellery that revolve around stats instead of color of con, legendary poisons, good arrows(although they do not change the damage of ranged combat arts anymore). Other than having the skills you use at adept3 and the other minorly used ones at adept1. Other than knowing the distance between the melee range and range combat art range so you minimize the dps you lose when you use them for that extra umph(which minorly differs between the mobs you fight). Other than never having your skills unused that put you in stealth so you can use your combat arts to the fullest. <DIV> Please, if you can make me a better assassin, I'll even go to your server to watch you fight and out dps every class out there. I'm still first-handedly unsure of the level 50 game, because I am only level 40, but still at my level other classes have very comparible(in other words, better than me if I don't have all my long timer skills up) dps. I also have other assassins that I trust, and respect, tell me that its the same and worse at higher levels. The ONLY way I see your argument standing if you don't have anything to add onto my list of things you can do to help your dps, is that your server sucks and that fighters you group with have no skills at all. Its not that assassins are bad when you group with unskilled fighters, its usually the case at higher levels, or in a good guild, the fighters you group with are usually skilled. Thus making it comparing "skilled" assassins against "skilled" fighters, ending with the fighters usually out dpsing us. I'm sorry my grammar is not that great, with sentences that are too long, but I do hope you have something to add to my list. It would help the assassin community as a whole, because I'm assuming others can't think of too much more you can do. If you don't, you dissappoint me. /shrug But back to the OP, yea, play the class you want. Although the dps department is not that great, and we as a whole don't really have a role, I don't deny I have fun with my class. I have depth in my play style. I can kite mobs for loot if I want, I can solo mobs for xp if I chose the mobs right, I can group with my guildies for quests, I can just hang out next to normally-deadly-and-agro mob over there for a drink and still live. I dunno, its a game, although I am no role-player, I just find the role-play aspect of being an assassin and sneaky as enough for me to keep playing and have fun with my guildies. Oh, and btw, aereas, I only dissagree with your "all assassins that complain suck" argument and everything else I agree with. Sorry if I sounded harsh. </DIV>

ins4nity11

04-17-2005, 07:00 PM

The thing is, I am not deticated to having an assassin, actually, with all of these complaints atm, I dont really want ont that much. I was thinking about making a monk, but since i just betrayed on my pred/outfitter (who is going tailor), I will have to run to ant every time i want to give my monk something. Hm, well, were assassins, complained about as much earlier in the game? Like when it first came out.

Aere

04-17-2005, 08:34 PM

Klipto, First don't worry about apologizing for being harsh. I'm an educated man, as such there has long been some great advice i've lived by. One of the most intelligent women ever to live, Elenor Roosvelt one said, "No one can make you feel inferior without first giving consent." Which means, no extemporanous ranting, petty insults, name calling, or mental attacks from verbal protaginists will ever bother you. Unless you empower them to do so. Words, like anything, can be sharp as knives or dull as feathers. It's all about how strong your mind is, and mine is much to strong to let petty stuff like that bother me. Not that Im saying you were petty or verbally attacked me in anyway. Just stating words i live by. Now, as for your list of things for me to add to. If you read my post closely, which it seems you have, You would have noticed I referenced, "at the keyboard" over and over. The itimized list you proposed does have some bearing on the over all scheme of things, but has very little to do with over all talent. I've played everyquest for over 5 years now, and I will honestly tell you, I have seen some of the best outfitted people at their class really stink. They are in the top guilds, with the best plane of time gear, best weapons possible for their class, 150 + aa points, etc. Still really really bad at their class. For example lets compare tanks. There are people out there that even having the best gear, weapons possilbe, couldn't tank a wet paper bag. Then the really awsome ones, individuals so awsome at their class, can tank butt nekked, without any gear at all. I will stress this again, its the person at the keyboard that matters, not the gear you obtain. the gear will make a bad person good, or a good person a bit better, but true talent lies at the fingertips of the person at the keyboard. Going along that lines, on your list you failed to mention the keyboard at all. For instance, lets look at hot keys. Bar 1, set up to use the top line. ~ through =. (taking into consideration you don't have a custum UI.) the second key board requires you to use the alt key before pressing the appropriate key to land said attack. then the third makes you use clt, and so on. I personally have reset all my keys so i never have to use two keys to make an attack go off. I never have to hit alt anything, or control anything. Next I have my hotkeys in such a manner that I know exactly when one refresh timer resets compared to another to best compliment each other. I never have to mash buttons to keep my dps up. I know exactly when everyone refreshes and don' t have to physically look or hunt for my next key. It may seem trivial in the long run, but compare those little things with my ability to type 60 words a minute, (never having to physically look at my keyboard). All this little stuff add's up. Next in line is ho's. I've continously said ho's help alot. I remember a day when i joined a group, i was a replacement scout for a group that had been grinding for awhile. One of the members of the group made an interesting comment. He said, You know tarathiel, i've been with this group since it started. In that time there have been roughly about 5 different scouts and your the only one that has used ho's out of all of them. I always use single ho's everytime i group. Doesn't matter if the group is using group ho's or not. If they are, i do both and sneak in a single ho when i can. If not, I bang out single ho's the entire time engaged in battle. yes, assassin ho's arn't the greatest, but single ho's used effectively with your other attacks increases your over all dps alot. Next in line is my arrows attacks. When all my other options are exhausted and waiting on reruse timers to refresh, I back up just enough to get my ranged attacks off. You'd be amazed how much your dps goes up when adding this tactic to your repitoire. Now, it takes real skill, exact timing, and very quick fingers on a keyboard to keep all of that going without missing a bit. I'll be the first to admit I still mess it up sometimes. Alot more often then I would admit. I honestly compare assassins in this game to old school bards in everquest 1 twisting songs. The best bards could twist 3 or more songs at once, it was murder on the wrists and fingers, and there was absolutely no room for talking. Bards, especially good bards, hardly ever said a word in battle. As for your comments about all or the majority of the fighters on my server sucks, i'm not even gonna touch that. It's just silly to even suggest such a thing. However i will tell you this, when i have mages, especially good mages in group, and or other scouts in the same group. Things die really fast and my dps tops out between 150 to 250 dps. Things just don't stay alive long enough to keep it really high. If i'm the only scout in group my dps is 200 to 300 dps, depending on a good or bad round. Some of my gear isn't the greatest. All my spells are just adept 1. I don't have a single adept III in my attack line. I have one master spell, Surveil. With adept 1's and app 4's, i'm still putting out over 200dps per second. I'd hate to see what my dps would do if i actually had the best gear, the best weapons, and all adept III's or above. I'm sure there are assassins out there much better then me and can top that. Now to the "whiners" out there, they may claim 150 to 200+ dps is no where near what an assassin should be doing. But to me that bs is trivial. I play the class for the reasons i listed in my previous post here. I make due with what is give me and strive to excell about it. Maybe it's just cause i'm ex military. I just don't cry or whine about things. Yes i do agree with you that there are people that cry and whine about the class that are probably very good players. The most important thing i tried to stress was it matters little if they are good or not. These people are going to find things to cry about regardless. Once the dps is fixes and assassins are doing 1,000+ dps per second, they will surely find something else to cry about. There are two kinds of people in the world. Those that Lead and those that follow. The best people in the world make due with what they have at hand, and find a way to excell with it. Those are true leaders. They don't cry about things they have no controll over. Teachers are a perfectly example of this. The best school teachers in the world don't cry about the lousy books they have to choose from, or the lack of adaquate supplies they have. They make do, or go buy the stuff out of the their own pockets. They find ways to use the crappy programs they have to pruduce the best possible learning experience for their classes. I stand my my words in this post and my above post. To make two long, over drawn posts simpilistic. Real skill always has, and always will lie with the person at the keyboard.

PIexor

04-17-2005, 10:18 PM

<DIV>Untill around lvl 46+ or so everything is good, mucho dps only to be outdone by wizards and warlocks, and before your each that lvl the might have fixed the last few levels too <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

BlackHa

04-18-2005, 12:42 AM

Depends on what you like to do. If you like to group, assassin is rewarding to play. If you like to solo, then assassin may be the worst solo scout class. Why? 1) Limited frontal attacks (combat arts). Seems you are always waiting for them to cycle. Very difficult to use your power up. I rarely get mine to less than 40% using macro'd HO's, etc. As you increase in skill you get an option to increase various attributes. I chose agility to increase my power pool (agility is..after all, a scout's primary attribute). This may have been a mistake as I can't use all of my available power. Further, it may have been a mistake to choose a high agility race like Ratonga. I might have been better served choosing a high strength/stamina character like an Ogre. 2) Long timers. You can sneak up on a mob and give it an impressive attack from behind. Then it swings around to face you and you begin the frontal attack (see the problem outlined in step 1). After the encounter is complete, you must then wait an annoyingly length of time for your premier backstab cycle. Sure you can use a lesser backstab, but see problem 1. I also have some problems with some of the group attacks. Many attacks require you to be in stealth. When your generic combat (no combat arts) begins, you lose your stealth. So to use these attacks, you must a) go stealth, b) "turn off" you generic melee attack, c) Finally...use the stealth attack. Many have taken this one step further by macroing the process. This can be regularly compromised by latency (lag) though, and you will often become frustrated with it. Further, when you "turn off" your generic combat, you are reducing the chances of your poison to proc. I wonder if their are other classes that are almost "required" to macro their attacks? I personally believe that the whole stealth attack process is flawed and needs addressed.

Klip

04-18-2005, 05:26 AM

Aereas, thank you for such a thought-out and a well written response. Its been a while since there was a reply to my post that was worth replying to. I assume to much(a bad habit), and from lack of intelligent responses in the past, I have gotten the habit of having a bad tone to my posts(another bad habit). Before I start, could I ask what program you use to parse your data? The parser I had, I never felt was very good and would like to be able to compare numbers from the same program to be able to judge things. I find some take in different numbers into the DPS number. Forgive me for writing a response before I can see a difference in data. I have to agree with you that there may be many players(especially in some uber guilds in eq1) that are very well equiped and do not play there class well. I have encountered many who make me ashamed that I play the same class. But, alas, I'd like to assume that many people who post about assassin's problems on these boards that I see on the class-specific forums frequently have taken their time to look through their arsenal of possibilities before they whine. Khalysta for example(I'm sorry if bringing up your name offends you) is on the same server as I am, and from the many intelligent posts I see her posting here and the scouts sanctuary, I have found respect for her, and believe her when I see her posting arguments about something I do not know about(the above 40 world). I usually ignore the posts by people I can tell do not take their class seriously(people who complain way too much when our out-of-combat stealth worked infinately was fixed). Reading your comments, I can tell you read through my post, but I did think I mentioned the "keyboard" section of skill as well. "Other than knowing the distance between the melee range and range combat art range so you minimize the dps you lose when you use them for that extra umph(which minorly differs between the mobs you fight). Other than never having your skills unused that put you in stealth so you can use your combat arts to the fullest. " I think those may have been a little subtle, but they do mean the skill of a player. I had the arrow attacks that you mentioned in my list, and, for the most part, the hotbutton bars can also translate to my "never have unused stealth skills" because if you have those greyed out, you don't have much more you can do to add your dps combat-art-wise. Now as a reply, setting up your keyboard so that you don't have to press alt, or ctrl is an idea that I did not think of. I have a very high end computer, and with my typing skills of 50words per minute(I can't seem to be able to get to 60, respect to you for getting there) I only just have one hotbar set up. I have the skills I use the most and need alot of buttons on the first set, my HO list and my "stealther"s and my "stealth-needed" skills. Then I have my other skills that I use on my second list. My arrow skills are also there because they do have the necessity to turn off auto attack. I use shift2 to switch between them and I usually have no problem keeping my HO always used up, my frontal skills used, moving back to use my bow skills, moving back in during my "stealther" cast time and using them. Although when I use my bow skills(longer recast time then my other skills) I have a few seconds that my "stealther"s are up, I don't think that is a minus in my dps from the plus from them as well. Now when I'm in a raid, or a lag heavy environment, I tend to miss....alot... of it so your suggestion would definately up my dps at those times, I guess I have to lift my lazy butt to set those up. The arrow attacks I already had on my list, so I won't bother to reply there. The HOs I, again, assumed would be a given to all assassins if the group they are in cannot completely multi-class HOs. The people that I group with(usually a guild bruiser, guild defiler, guild warlock, sometimes mix and match) are skilled enough to complete the complex ones. I always try to be the first one to add onto my skills when they are needed to the HO ring, so the dps from those HOs usually don't come to me. Again, I don't mean to openly suggest the people on your server suck, I just like to start the conversation of comparison on the level that all members of the group are skilled enough to the level to complete HOs. When you put that in the comparison, I still can't see how you can pump out 200-300 dps and do better than any class out there. But I have to put in the fact that I'm probably not using the same program as you, so I'll leave that to an open end. The list that I had up with the upgrading items to gain dps was there because I believe they are a major difference in dps, and something that I can strive for to make me a better assassin. Items DO make a major difference, and having all those gear would probably make a mediocre player having about the same dps as a "skilled" player(you). And even assuming all the other greatly geared people on these forums are only mediocre(which I don't) I would think they would have the added effect of good gear for compensating for their lack of skill compared to you. And when they say that they aren't competing against other classes, I believe them and I believe my own experiences. I'm sorry for majorly derailing the thread... its been a whle since I've had fun writing up a responce and a good argument is alot better than the class I'm taking at college atm :smileyvery-happy:

sysop

04-18-2005, 10:06 AM

The assassin is fun to play it keeps you on your toes <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I play in solid group with RL friends, we played together since lvl 3 and we are all 45 now, so i can easy say when we shine and when we not. We shine more in younger lvls and get worse the higher we come <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> About dmg: I always beat our Guardian in my group BUT my spells are a bit better up to date then his. When my condemning blade, bloodthirster and cripple are up i beat our wizard in group both in highest hit and overall dmg (but not with that much). When none of these are up the wiz beat me with ease and a dmg output look then like this: (total dmg) Wiz 6800 dmg Me 4000 Gua 3200

Aere

04-18-2005, 03:08 PM

Klipto, I agree with the good argument deal. I have no problems debating or discussing a topic with an individual(s) if it doesn't become biligernt. 99.9 percent of the time when someone responds back, it's usually not a well thought out rebuttle. It usually is a flame consisting of personal attacks and profanity. So it's refreshing to find a person that can respond back with a well thought out response and a decent vocabulary. (Though we probably are highjacking this tread.) Putting that aside, you'd be suprised how many assassins I see that do not use their ranged attacks. Well i shouldn't say all, just on my server. I am just assuming if it happens on mine, it happens on all of them. Just about all of my fellow assassins don't use their ranged attacks or ho's that i have personally seen. They may used group ho's, but only use single ho's if they are soloing. I use single ho's everytime i group, wether the group starts full group ho's or not. When they start a group chain ho, i advance my part if called to do so. Then when the ho goes off, I sneak in a single ho. Which means I start it and finish it myself. Far as my keyboard commands I kept it simple. For example on my secondary hotbar, I use my second line as hotkeys. Q through . Keeping things simple lets use the letter I for example. Usually pushing I brings up your inventory. Then normally you'd have to push alt I to use your hot key. Well i simply reversed this. I now have to push alt I to bring up my inventory and just simply assaigned the letter I as my hot key. I really don't need a single hotkey to get into my inventory since it's far less important then my attacks. I'm sure others have different methods, but i believe in the kiss method. Keep it simple stupid. I've done the same for my tieritary hotbar, which is again the third row of my key board. Which is conviently enough the primarly resting place for the typist hands. A through '. So as you can see, all my hot keys are within very easy reach without having to push duel keys. hotbar 1, line 1. hotbar 2, line 2. hotbar 3, line 3. Others i have seen use 4 hotbars, but i haven't seen a practical use for more then 3 since all our upgrades are on the same timers. Now a small bit on parcers. I really hate parcers even though i jumped on the band wagon and got one. The only reason I did so was we have a brigand in the guild who is really awsome. we like to have fun little dps compititions so i got one for the fun of that. Though i have grown prone into using it alot more. However i believe parcers are part of the major problem. If people were not out there parcing then people would actually just play for fun. You wouldn't hear a majority of the complaining and crying you do now. I personally believe parcers should all be trashed and people just play the darn class, any class, for fun. Also that brings another point to mind. With all the different parcers out there, everyone is going to have different stats. So alot of the data isn't really worth a can of beans. There is no standard or regulations to them and they are all going to read numbers differently. With that being said the parcer I use is found here; <A href="http://www.combatstats.com" target=_blank>http://www.combatstats.com</A> I've tried several different versions, even the one found on the scouts sanctuary and found this one to be the best so far. (Sorry Khalysta) Though I'm sure people have their versions of better parcers. I just know for me, this has been the most accurate so far. One of the major things i noticed about all the parcers I used, even this one, is that on each mob the parcer starts over. Once a mob had died especially in multiple mob encounters, and the group attacks the next mob, the parcer resets and begins anew. So you could have possibly been the highest dps in the fight before, but on the second mob your keys are still refreshing so your dps is going to be less. These parcers are only really accurate and the data really worth it on single mob group encounters and named mobs. Where the fight is going to last a few minutes. Now I have a question. Maybe better suited for another thread. yeah, I'll start a new thread and pose that question.

Putka

04-18-2005, 03:38 PM

<DIV>I think Khalysta's Statalyzer™ is cute :smileyvery-happy:. Normally I use CombatStats for the everyday grindage when I feel like making sorcerers and brawlers miserable, but at the end of the long tiring session I fire up Statalyzer and look at all the nifty data <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Though I still wish Khalysta would've implemented avg. session DPS for the entire group, not just yourself. Lazy lazy!</DIV>