43 assassin for teh win? Some rants, some positive...

[syniste]

Alright - what's the deal. It happened again last night with a 48 assassin in the group vs. me, the 43 assassin. I was 9 out of 10 times beating his DPS by a safe margin in everfrost. What is with lazy assassins giving us a bad name? I have 0 adept III's and 0 Masters. I understand our raid issues, but if high-level assassins are just playing sub-par, then it makes the rest of us look bad. We should be right up there each fight with the nukers, imho, and well above the tanks, which I have been so far. In light of some of this, I'd still say our timers need a bit of a fix... I wouldn't be drastic about it though. Assassinate on a 5 min timer isn't unreasonable, compared to the 35 monk ability. I'd put Condemning Blade on a 2-3 min timer or thereabouts. And, Bloodthirster on a 45s timer. Remove stealth requirement from AoE's. **** Credit assassins with Assassin's Mark (agonizing strike) damage - no one knows anything about the coolness of this skill other than us, and it does add good DPS - Let us prove our dps worth by attributing this proc damage to us regardless of who sets it off. Either that OR when it's cast, show a BUFF ICON to each group member so that they can see the ability and inspect it. Otherwise, no one knows. This is a utility that we provide for grp DPS, and it goes unnoticed atm by everyone in the group. ****Also, this -% to our base dps is nuts. Revamp you system SOE - You have the means to make it work. IE:Avoidance vs AGI... A higher agility will hit more often VS. the Mobs avoidance.Mitigation vs STR... A higher strength will do more damage to the mob vs it's Mitigation value.There's no need to give us a built in penalty to damage. The system would work fine if you stuck to your own logic. Agile scouts should hit more often, whereas the strong tanks will do more damage with they hit. That way, you can have jacked scouts who can do = damage with = str, or agile tanks who can hit more often if they want to up that ability. OMG class DIVERSITY! What ever will you DO!!!???But I digress... anyhow, the problem you run into is, if our key abilities are on too low a timer, it renders our other stealth attacks almost pointless as far as DPS is concerned. Why use them? Plus, I'm convinced now that the dev's intend us to make better use of our ranged CA's, because even with the 3sec timers, they rip up the DPS with good poison. The poison procs on these attacks are FAR more frequent - almost 50-75% of the time. It's the only way I can explain why I'm getting high numbers for my level.**EDIT was supposed to be a reply to my earler post "Hmm... Maybe not?" where I posted about my dps experience with myself, 46 warlok, and 45 wizard in a group. Owned the wizard, kept up with the warlok (in a nutshell)...<p>Message Edited by synister9 on <span class=date_text>03-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:46 AM</span><p>Message Edited by synister9 on <span class=date_text>03-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:56 AM</span>

[Brianf]

<P>Much lower in lvl but agree with you. I always add in my bow attacks and get good DPS (usually highest in group of same level char's...equal to mages 2-3 levels higher). I use 5 dif poisons and keep my items all orange (even buying forged or crude of the next set if I can). All my skills are AD1 pretty much except Mas1 Reconoitter which gives me 3 min instead on 1:45.</P> <P>Investing in your character makes all the difference up to a point. i know later on there are problems and I read abotu them all the time...I also read the updates and see that bit by bit they are being fixed so hopefully by the time I get there all will be good.</P>

[Tatali]

<span><blockquote><hr>synister9 wrote:**** Credit assassins with Assassin's Mark (agonizing strike) damage - no one knows anything about the coolness of this skill other than us, and it does add good DPS - Let us prove our dps worth by attributing this proc damage to us regardless of who sets it off.<span class="time_text"></span> <hr></blockquote>I disagree with that. I sort of like how it is becuase the agro goes to someone else too. Folks know the damage was from one of their own spells and often say, "Woah, how did I do that?" to which you reply, "Oh, that was just one of my assassin skills...." Result: people want the assassin around for the "cool" factor of raising their dps score. It doesn't matter who triggers it, the mob is still taking that much more damage as a result of your ability.</span><div></div>

[Brianf]

I had it proc off our MT last night and when I posted CombatStats he asked what that was. I explained and he thought it was cool. It helped that we were fighting one of the named in Gobblerock Hideout at the time so it was needed <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[screenid]

<P>:smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>I am a lvl 43 assassin</P> <P> </P> <P>Last night was in a group with 48 Gardian... 47 Shadow night... 41 assassin.. a 48 Defiler...47 Necro</P> <P>The assassins in the group always had the highest DPS  :smileywink:  </P> <P>However will say both of the assassins were fully utilizing all our skills..</P> <P>BTW I always out DPS the lvl 41 assassin</P> <P>So I would have to say we have the ability to put out the damage ...if we are fully using the tools of our class</P>

[Tazzrin]

 Add a zerker or brawler type and then report back on how your dps compares to them.

[syniste]

I've been fine out DPSing Zerks, but haven't grouped with any brawlers recently.  Raids might be different, but no tank has really given me too much trouble yet... or even been able to keep agro when I go all-out.  Again, though I'm level 43 and still have to see what happens in the near future, but even being able to out-dps a wizard 3 or 4 levels higher than me puts me in a bit of a better mood.  Warloks are a bit tougher...

[Elv]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tazzrin wrote:<BR>  Add a zerker or brawler type and then report back on how your dps compares to them.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR> </P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#ccffff>Lv 50 Assassin here from Unrest : The " ONLY " players that ever challenge my dps are Necro's / Warlock's & Wizard's. You just need to utilize all the abilities of our class and know when to use what. For instance, I see alot neglecting the use of Murderous Focus, and many that don’t even know of our new Lv35 Haste buff which stacks with Merciless Villainy... ( which for me will put me at 97% haste for 2 min ) </FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ccffff size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#ccffff>Take the time to save up and buy adept 3's.. Focus not only on AGI but STR. If you have not noticed raising your STR will raise your Atk rating. Which helps with how often or " easy " a target will be to hit. ( for its given Lv ) With all my own self buffs, and swindlers luck I almost break 900atk. With a warden or chanter I can easily get 920's and I can really see my DPS sky rocketing. </FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ccffff size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#ccffff>Player made poisons kick [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]. Ive run many parses and have noticed a 50dps increase on avg using touch of the void. Also remember to use all your debuff's prior to using your hard hits. Just cause it pop's doesnt mean you need to bang it out. Without debuffs my Adept 3 condemning blade will only hit for around 1400 - 1500 .. but after I lay down Cripple / Insidious Cut / Bloodthirster / ect ... I almost always break 2k dmg. </FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ccffff size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#ccffff>So from a Lv50... yes we can deal some decent Dmg. It may not be the highest in the game.. but its worth having us around to group with. There is a skill to playing an assassin if your going to do it right. If there wasnt... would it be as fun? Read , learn, and research the skills your given. They all serve an important role. ( for the most part, the RAT pet still blows ) </FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ccffff size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#ccffff>Do we need to be reviewed for a possible DPS boost?<SPAN>  </SPAN>: Yes, we do. All scouts if you ask me. I dont like the off the bat dmg reduction we have on us. I think thats complete bull. Also the fact most end game mobs have immunity to either piercing or slashing.. yeah thats fair. But thats another problem all together. </FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ccffff size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#ccffff>USE your ranged attacks!! I get an extra 1500 dmg atleast every round with just my bow. Thats a decent amount. It all adds up~ </FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ccffff size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#ccffff>I love my class and would not of wanted to choose any other. Eq2 is still early as far as Im concerned. I for one am going to stick it out, cause I know what we are now... and what were capable of becoming with a little love<SPAN>  </SPAN><img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Elvar on <span class=date_text>04-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:33 AM</span>

[Elv]

Wonder what noob gave me 2stars... I figured that was an informational post that would be respected... not shot down <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Harmon]

<DIV>Well, if the information was correct I'm sure that person would have given you more stars.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Haste:  Visually the two icons stack, so I immediately pulled up the character mainhud to verify.  The haste effect from MV overrides BT.  So no, you are not sitting on 97% haste, you're looking at 42-47% I believe, or whatever MV gives depending on app/adept level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I agree with the buy Adept3 thing, but that is pretty much common sense.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think the STR point is a good one that a lot of assassins overlook.  But you are often choosing between STR and AGI.  The two rarely come on the same item.  So you'll increase your ATK and your power pool will suffer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Player made poisons are too expensive to make, and therefore in turn too expensive to buy.  Even at cost the player made poison is 3x the cost and it's only a few more charges and slightly more damage.  I don't see 50dps coming from differing poisons, but I won't speculate - it should be tested.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, we need to be reviewed for damage output.  It needed to happen yesterday.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ranged Attacks:  You are not getting 1500 damage per round with your ranged attacks.  A round is one combat exchange in EQ2 or a tick if you want to call it that.  You are lucky to get 1500 the whole fight since most fights don't last longer than 30 seconds, and your ranged arts are all timers close to that area.  Spitting Viper, Assassin's Shot, Faltering Blast once, maybe twice, per battle at most.  Now, you also need to subtract the damage you lost from stepping out of combat for 1s + 3s + 3s.  7 seconds of combat timers, probably 1-2s to move in and out of range - so almost 10s of the battle you are ranged attacking / moving around.  That's like between 500-1000 damage lost.  So your 1500 number (which is more like 2000 with adept3 ranged arts, but we can factor in missing / NPC mitigation) comes back down to 1k at most.  Don't get me wrong, I love high hitting ranged attacks, they just aren't the answer to the dps problem.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's going to take a significant revamp of the class to get us in line with the abilities of the other classes.  I put too much into my assassin to 'just reroll' as some people say.  I like the concept, I'm still having fun, and I'm the type of person that sticks with something even in the bad times.  But if you don't point out the problems, either real or perceived, then nothing will ever change.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Fros]

<DIV>He is talking about Honed Reflexes that is added at 35 from BC. Pop it and Murderous and see the dmg fly. (Upgrade it Honed to Adept 3 , it is double App2~4 haste %)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you actually used bow often, you will see using spliting viper take maybe 1 or at most 2 sec off your meleeing if you get really used to it. And with all the proc you can get with all the poison/ buff / weapon proc / bow proc etc you can easily get 1000~1500 provided the mob isnt resistant to whatever it is using.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Agi stop giving much of power pool after 200, im over 200 easy without outside buff so I went all str now with little sta here and there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>He has points there and I give him 5 star.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Frosin on <span class=date_text>04-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:08 AM</span>

[Elv]

<DIV> <DIV><EM>Haste:  Visually the two icons stack, so I immediately pulled up the character mainhud to verify.  The haste effect from MV overrides BT.  So no, you are not sitting on 97% haste, you're looking at 42-47% I believe, or whatever MV gives depending on app/adept level.</EM></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></DIV> <P>Like I was saying, most dont even know of our ( NEW ) haste buff we got at Lv35 with the ( NEW expansion )</P> <P>Also, I didnt ask for an explanation of what a " round is " in your eyes.. or how you my inturpet it. Im talking about per encounter. </P> <P>Mob ( A) when it dies... will have done to it ( x ) value of 1500 dmg " RANGE " Im not talking about ticks, or mitigation values.. Im talking about pulling my bow back twice and see 700+ hits ( per pull ) with Glimmering Stike procs going off adding  200-300 more dmg per proc with ( poison procs ) to boot.</P> <P>Also curious where I said that touch of the void does 50dps " OVER  " stock vendor bought poison. I was stating that ( Touch of the Void ) itself.. has added roughly 50dps to my parses.</P> <P> </P> <P>Nothing hard to understand with my original post. Unless your looking to be controversial.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Elvar on <span class=date_text>04-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:44 AM</span>

[Elv]

<DIV> <DIV><EM>yay SOE lag  .. ignore this post </EM></DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by Elvar on <span class=date_text>04-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:36 AM</span>

[Tazzrin]

<P>This "new" haste skill is available only with the purchase of the BC pack? Also I've heard that this BC pack has a lot of new zones for the lower levels and lacks quite a bit of higher-end content. Although I've also heard that there are a few good targets for raids.</P> <P>Also what zones are these prismatics tending to drop in? </P> <P>Also I agree with the ranged attacks adding very nice dmg. I don't know if you guys have ever noticed this but when I watch the mobs health bar when I use a ranged attack I see their health drop immensely. When I use a melee attack that does roughly the same damage it seems that the health does not decline as much as with the ranged attack. Not sure what it is, but try this out for yourself and watch how the mobs health seem to drop more from ranged attacks than melee attacks that do roughly the same damage.</P>

[Amise]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tazzrin wrote:<BR> <P>This "new" haste skill is available only with the purchase of the BC pack? Also I've heard that this BC pack has a lot of new zones for the lower levels and lacks quite a bit of higher-end content. Although I've also heard that there are a few good targets for raids.</P> <P>Also what zones are these prismatics tending to drop in? </P> <P>Also I agree with the ranged attacks adding very nice dmg. I don't know if you guys have ever noticed this but when I watch the mobs health bar when I use a ranged attack I see their health drop immensely. When I use a melee attack that does roughly the same damage it seems that the health does not decline as much as with the ranged attack. Not sure what it is, but try this out for yourself and watch how the mobs health seem to drop more from ranged attacks than melee attacks that do roughly the same damage.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You shouldn't need to have the BC pack to get the spell as recipe books for those spells are now sold at tradeskill instance vendors.  And yes there's not a lot of specific raid content, but there wasn't intended to be and you actually have to work through the entire pack to get to the raid content.</P> <P>Prismatic weapons aren't a drop. They are the end reward from a series of quests given by Lord Nagafen in sol eye.  You need to complete a raid instance to get the dragon language quest you need to even speak with him, and you must know giant language to advance the dragon language quest.  </P>

[Tazzrin]

<DIV>Well when I was in the tradeskill instance I only saw the wholesaler and market broker npc's. Which npc sells these new spells?</DIV>

[Amise]

The vendor that sells essential recipe books also has the recipe books for Bloodlines items.

[InuyMa]

At 42 i'm pretty unhappy. Not only do i have to stand in barrage range to do my damage, but it also requires me to time stealths inbetween AE's, and pray i don't mess up my rhythm to much while fighting. For the amount of effort we put in compared to other classes to do our dps, it should be much higher. Contending with massive lag to turn attack on and off in raid situations unless i completely and utterly gank my graphics is just so annoying. Right now, i'm using all adept 1's. Except App IV Honed Reflexes, and Adept 3 Assassin's mark. My DPS at 42 was 30-50 less then a 47 Paladin. Now i know...5 levels, but even if i go up 100 dps in those levels, he still has all the tanking abilities AND healing. [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] is that? And that doesn't even touch on Warlocks and Wizards. They have less agro issues, massive AE damage, easy to do DPS, and get to stay out of Barrage range. Not to mention not worrying about having the mobs back and having to position to do damage. And after all that, the last fix to our standings in damage was a nerf to us, that happened to effect tanks more. Oh and did i mention my one redeeming buff is something all scouts get? And evac tends to [Removed for Content] my group off more then help it, because we have a monk who can FD and ress our healer on the spot. The main issue seems to be, burst damage is worthless. Because all fights are long enough that you end up needing more. Unless our burst damage doubles, i dunno what to say. When i  CA ringing blow with torment and infected wound, and follow up with Bloodthirster and Ella's, and only half way kill one of the mobs in the group, or take a bubble out of the ^^ mob. It just seems very lackluster. The reuse timers are so annoying at the moment. Yes i'm very ranty today, but the DPS the paladin was posting was just ugh. <div></div>

[InuyMa]

Oh and just to be clear, i have my attack set to my mouse, and use no macros to do my DPS, affording me the highest DPS available when i do stealth attacks and HOs. I am not a slacker by any means. Have maxxed archery, use poisons, and make very liberal use of my manastone mid fight. <div></div>

[syniste]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> InuyMarr wrote:<BR>Oh and just to be clear, i have my attack set to my mouse, and use no macros to do my DPS, affording me the highest DPS available when i do stealth attacks and HOs. I am not a slacker by any means. Have maxxed archery, use poisons, and make very liberal use of my manastone mid fight.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>That's weird then.  At 44 assassin, I parse well above any 47-48 tank I've grouped with.  I break 200 dps on a regular basis.  The closest a tank has come to me is when they set off my Agonizing Strike proc at Adept III.  I'm usually besting Wizards 3 or 4 levels higher than me.  The only class that will almost always out-dps me thus far is Warlock.  Not even 100% of the time, but pretty consistantly.  </P> <P>Not sure why you're having group DPS issues.  =</P> <P>And, to add to the player-made vs store-bought poison discussion, Player-Made stuff will be resisted FAR less often.  Store-Bought stuff is resisted quite a bit.  So, that's where the true DPS differential lies.  Not in the actual proc itself.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[InuyMa]

It's probably because you are in very DPS heavy groups which afford you a higher DPS due to shorter fights. Unfortunately in raids the fights are not short, and our DPS plummets. Also due to Fighter DPS being about 60% from their normal melee, they don't dip in DPS when they run out of power as dramatically as we do. <div></div>

[Weasel23]

<DIV>I don't really see what the problems people are ranting about in raids. I'm not posting this to boast or what not. That's not me. In a raid, tanks do not even come close to the dps I put out unless of course it's a brawler. But hey who cares, they do good dps, and the fight ends quicker. I have not seen any mention by anyone how assassins debuff the mob all to hell with the melee skills we use. It's something that most have not even noticed. I get aggro frequently from the tanks during raids because of this. I don't take it as a downfall. I'll tank a mob for a while if I have to. Just gives time to heal the tank up a bit. Puttin out 200 to 250 dps a raid sounds good to me on top of the debuffs. Throw in some poison, a Cripple, and you've got a dps machine. Like some have said before, know your class to the fullest and problems will subside. But yes, we do need some things fixed up a bit, but for now I'm just waiting til it happens. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Kaycee Krossblade</DIV> <DIV>50 Assassin</DIV> <DIV>Chaotic Legion </DIV> <DIV>Nektulos Server</DIV>

[Tazzrin]

<DIV>That is one thing that seems to be overlooked, the debuffs we can offer with our abilities. How much does the dps of other melee classes within the group go up after we punch the mob with a few of our outstanding melee debuffs? This is a controversial question because when I see posts like "player-x was out dps'ing me!? an assassin!?" I think that their dps is so high because of the debuffs we secretly offer. Most other classes think we are only dps class, but our debuffs are commonly over-looked and the dps of other classes is greatly increased due to these debuffs. </DIV>

[Weasel23]

<P>Thank you for improving my point Tazzrin :smileywink:</P> <P> </P> <P>Kaycee Krossblade</P> <P>50 Assassin</P> <P>Chaotic Legion</P> <P>Nektulos Server</P>

[Harmon]

<P>As an assassin you are not outdamaging Adept3 Devastation and Adept3 Ice Comet.  Not even close.  I'm not saying that we should, but it's getting old watching people post that they are out dpsing high level sorcerers.</P> <P>I'm sorry, you just aren't.  I see people posting about how they can beat warlocks and wizards several levels higher than them, but not when they are L50 sir.  There's not even a maybe in there, you are going to lose every time to a warlock or a wizard who is actually sitting at the keyboard casting spells.  Burst damage CAs that have 5 min and 1 hour reuse timers don't make up for the fact that warlock/wizard timers are all under 1 min (and Ice Comet is like 20s?).</P> <P>People should stick to the facts.  I mean post some logs showing us how you are accomplishing such high dps and exactly what the other people in your group are doing during your parse.</P>

[Tazzrin]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Harmonic wrote:<BR> <P>As an assassin you are not outdamaging Adept3 Devastation and Adept3 Ice Comet.  Not even close.  I'm not saying that we should, but it's getting old watching people post that they are out dpsing high level sorcerers.</P> <P>I'm sorry, you just aren't.  I see people posting about how they can beat warlocks and wizards several levels higher than them, but not when they are L50 sir.  There's not even a maybe in there, you are going to lose every time to a warlock or a wizard who is actually sitting at the keyboard casting spells.  Burst damage CAs that have 5 min and 1 hour reuse timers don't make up for the fact that warlock/wizard timers are all under 1 min (and Ice Comet is like 20s?).</P> <P>People should stick to the facts.  I mean post some logs showing us how you are accomplishing such high dps and exactly what the other people in your group are doing during your parse.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Please post the quotes of a level 50 assassin saying they are outdamaging wiz's and warlock's. Because, I have seen nothing but posts from 50 assassins saying exactly what you said.</DIV>

[InuyMa]

<DIV>So, here is my question.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regardless of whether tanks out DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Someone give me a rationalization as to why Warlocks and Wizards should.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Assassin's require massively more effort to play, have to deal with AE's and Barrage completely screwing up our rhythm and DPS, require a mob to be positioned, AND have more agro at this point. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not to mention Wiz/Lock's horribly, horribly superior AE damage abilities.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It sure as hell isn't my buffing, my tracking, or my secondary abilities (i guess i can cheapshot and stun a mob for 5 seconds if no one is hitting it) that should cause me to do less DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After the agility nerf, my tanking and soloing can't be the reason (at 50 I can't exp anyway). Considering most mobs i fight kill me in 2-5 hits unless i'm slumming.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hell alot of Assassin's are more then willing to give up armor advantages to get things with power regen and the like just to do more damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So why are we so ok with them outdamaging us? Because we can bow kite and solo? /twirls finger woowoo.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And no I do not accept that because i'm guilded or grouped with them, it's ok for imbalances to exist because it some how benefits me. That logic is horribly flawed, and I don't want to hear it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you want to refute what i've said, break it down point for point, and tell me why i'm wrong.</DIV><p>Message Edited by InuyMarr on <span class=date_text>04-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:32 PM</span>

[Tazzrin]

Not only do they out DPS us but mages also have a considerable amount of utility buffs. This makes no sense whatsoever as to why rangers and assassins should not be THE best DPS classes in the game. Its been discussed before, and people seem to accept the fact that mages should out dps the predator class. Why? We have no utility at all. Why why why...

[syniste]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tazzrin wrote:<BR>Its been discussed before, and people seem to accept the fact that mages should out dps the predator class. Why? We have no utility at all. Why why why... <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Yeah, I've put that out there before - Where did that mentality come from and why does everyone seem to think it's okay?  They've got far more utility than us, yet by level 50 also take over as the massive damage dealers with much less effort.  Predators have to bust their arses to get in their DPS, and it's nothing compared to chain-nuking with Ice Commet.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just doesn't make much sense.  We really need something cool and unique to set us apart if this is going to be the DPS hierarchy.  Seems we're lacking that bit of something by level 50.  Heck, I'd settle for sub-par DPS if I could, for example, Climb Walls.  Or, what if when you group with a scout, you get a small percent chance to get coin drops from encounters... or maybe we have a self-buff proc that gives us a 1% chance per successful hit to... maybe refresh all our CA timers... or maybe the proc just gives us a % chance to outright kill a non-epic mob in an encounter.  Would have to be a small %, but still would be nice to see something just drop dead from a proc.  That'd be rad.  I dunno - Just would be cool to have something completely different, if DPS upgrades aren't in our future.</DIV>

[syniste]

Hooray for double post bugs! <p>Message Edited by synister9 on <span class=date_text>04-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:11 AM</span>

[BaruMonk]

<blockquote><hr>Tazzrin wrote:Not only do they out DPS us but mages also have a considerable amount of utility buffs. This makes no sense whatsoever as to why rangers and assassins should not be THE best DPS classes in the game. Its been discussed before, and people seem to accept the fact that mages should out dps the predator class. Why? We have no utility at all. Why why why... <hr></blockquote>Very Light armor vs. Medium armor.If they grab agro from all that chain-nuking, they get squashed like tiny little finger-wiggling bugs.

[Miele]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BaruMonkey wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tazzrin wrote:<BR>Not only do they out DPS us but mages also have a considerable amount of utility buffs. This makes no sense whatsoever as to why rangers and assassins should not be THE best DPS classes in the game. Its been discussed before, and people seem to accept the fact that mages should out dps the predator class. Why? We have no utility at all. Why why why... <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Very Light armor vs. Medium armor.<BR><BR>If they grab agro from all that chain-nuking, they get squashed like tiny little finger-wiggling bugs.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>VLA is compensated by being able to stay far from the mob, in any position. Medium armor alone doesn't justify the fact that the do the top dps and they have buffs. I just can't get why they can't make them equal dps ala EQ1, where rogue and wizard were on the top of the list, not far from each other, with rogues usually trading the zero utility they had (except exploring and doing CR) for a slight edge in dps.

[InuyMa]

Even if you set aside the fact that we stand in barrage range to do our damage, and if the mob turns at all there is a chance we die. There is the fact that raid mobs will murder anyone who isn't the tank regardless of armor if agro gets pulled (guess which classes get the most agro btw, not including ones who use taunt abilities). The whole "armor sets us apart" view is flawed in every game in the end, because raids are not balanced the same way exp mobs are. In EQ1 raids were tanked by defensive warriors, even knights really couldn't step in on most mobs until they were trivial, and by that time you had enchanters tanking quarm. Rogues in WoW are having the exact same problem we are in raids, if they get agro, they are smushed, and in Molten Core almost every mob AE's, Mages can stay out of range, Rogues can't. So rogues surviveability goes to nil. DPS classes cannot be balanced around their surviveability or even utility, unless they are required to deal damage the same way. <div></div>

[Akk]

<FONT size=3></FONT> <DIV>Finally...and all this time I thought I was the only one which found it strange that people find justification in mages doing more DPS than us...simply due to their LA restriction...ha!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As was pointed out...they get to stand-off and do it from any posistion...not a really good reason in my mind.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Speaking of which...We were running a team in Zek last night and one of the orcs said...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"The sneaky one may be using poison....Kill him!!"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I remember thinking...smart orc... :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now if I were any kind of MOB/Monster/Creature with a fraction of intellegence or instinct...and i saw someone wiggle their fingers and a block of ice, fire or lightning appeared...I'd ignore the guy with that big slow sword, heavy armour, and cumbersome shield and tear straight into that robe wearing weather-pattern.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>just my 2 coppers</DIV>