From a wizard [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

khalysta

01-08-2005, 04:12 PM

<DIV>you have to keep in mind our direct damage is on a long refresh timer. If you want a large 1kish magical blast I dont have a problem with it but just remember it needs to be on a timer like assassins blade which is around 5 minutes. Our damage really comes from all the small hits contrary to popular belief but all those small dual wield hits combined with the consistent 150+ hits is what makes our damage high since over time the 1k hit from assassin's blade is pretty small since its rarely used. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All of the wizard damage skills are far faster refresh than an assassin so technically you are in far better shape than we are. You complain about a 12 sec recast on your ae yet we are at 30 and 60 for our 2. 12 seconds is far faster. Also your big nuke skills are quick refresh while our big hits are long refresh. The assassin does most of their damage off short refresh attacks which are actually well below your nukes. So from a designer perspective if you want big hits you need to be willing to take the long refresh rates and if you cant put up with 12 seconds how will 5 minutes or more feel to the caster crowd. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just keep in mind big hits are nothing more than eye candy. The real thing you want to consider from a balance perspective is your sustained rate for a typical encounter which I still think wizards have more potential for in many cases.</DIV>

Aftermath_336

01-08-2005, 08:03 PM

<DIV>I parsed a wizard who was in my group today. I'm 32, he was 33. My dps was 5-6 behind him all the time and the 32 brawler we had in the group put us both to shame in some of the fights when he offloaded his specials. I'm not seeing where your issue is with dps in relation to assassins and, as Khalysta rightly says, you can offload yours a lot quicker than we can. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Horses for courses I'd say, I have a wizard and an assassin, I prefer the latter because it suits my style but I play both and enjoy them as much as each other.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Aftermath_336 on <span class=date_text>01-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:07 AM</span>

DiscipleoftheScarredMoon

01-08-2005, 08:07 PM

<DIV>grass is always greener...</DIV>

Rize

01-08-2005, 08:08 PM

<DIV>30's Wizards are ok. That right we are just ok. Wait till you hit 40's where assassian are doing 130dps and wizards are still doing 80-90dps. Oh and assassian how does it make you feel that Monks do 120dps+ and tank very very well? Par none monks/bruisers are the best classes in the game post 40's</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rizean 46 Wizard (Retired)</DIV>

Aftermath_336

01-08-2005, 08:16 PM

<DIV>How does it make me feel? Makes me feel fine, they can tank and I'll stand behind the mob shoving weapons into it's back, evaccing if we need to and disarming the chest afterwards if we don't. :smileywink: It'll be a sad day if I ever get eaten up by class envy or if EQ2 gets blemished with the inter-class whinefests that used to flood it's predecessor in waves. Each class has it's own merits and it's own problems, what's the point in getting stressed over them. Sheesh, get over it and play what you play. If another class is so great in your opinion, here's an idea, go fill one of the other 3 character slots you got with your basic subscription and roll one!</DIV>

HuntressSWG

01-08-2005, 08:30 PM

<DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>30's Wizards are ok. That right we are just ok. Wait till you hit 40's where assassian are doing 130dps and wizards are still doing 80-90dps. Oh and assassian how does it make you feel that Monks do 120dps+ and tank very very well? Par none monks/bruisers are the best classes in the game post 40's <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To be honest it doenst bother me at all. You chose the class so your kinda either going to have to live with it or reroll. Sony can swing the nerf bat on its own well enough it doenst need hints from us. You may not do as much DPS but for you that is good... Numerous times I have seen a tank lose agro due to lack of taunting (not your DPS hate generating) and watch you take it on the chin and die giving my team debt. We have greater DPS and are right on the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] end of the traget and can generate enough hate that the medium armor is justified. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as monks go... sweet I can group with one who can tank and help take down the target faster for the <EM><STRONG><U><FONT color=#ff0000>TEAM</FONT></U></STRONG></EM>. I still get xp... I still get a shot at rolling for loot... so you know what more power to em.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV align=center>Huntryss Elvenchild (Dark Elf)</DIV> <DIV align=center>43 Assassin</DIV> <DIV align=center> </DIV> <DIV align=center>Mistal Elvenchild (Half Elf)</DIV> <DIV align=center>12 Crusader</DIV>

Victicu

01-08-2005, 10:25 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> khalysta wrote:<BR> <DIV>The real thing you want to consider from a balance perspective is your sustained rate for a typical encounter which I still think wizards have more potential for in many cases.</DIV> <P><BR> <HR> </P> <P>I may be able to stay close to an assassin DPS if i have power...once i run out of power...well of course the assassin overtakes me</P> <P>the problem is...i should do more dps than an assassin while i have power to burn.</P> <P>i can burn my full power bar and hardly come close to an assassin dps...and the assassin keeps chugging where i get left behind</P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

Generic123

01-08-2005, 10:30 PM

<DIV> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#ffffcc>Just keep in mind big hits are nothing more than eye candy.<SPAN> </SPAN>The real thing you want to consider from a balance perspective is your sustained rate for a typical encounter which I still think wizards have more potential for in many cases.</FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#ffffff>At level 30 and above wizards are logging their damage and are routinely seeing assassins doing 2 times as much damage per encounter even though they are even though the wizard is burning far more power.<SPAN> </SPAN>For that matter several of the fighter classes (monks and paladins) are out damaging us on a consistent basis at these levels.<SPAN> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ffffff size=3>This really starts to hit in the 30’s because the replacement for the level 23 ball of fire, (our primary nuke) doesn’t do any more damage then the spell it replaces until about level 40 and there are no other damage spells of note during that time.<SPAN> </SPAN>This means wizards go nearly 10 levels in the 30’s without doing any additional damage and then merely start up where they left off in the low 30’s. In fact in some cases damage output drops due to resists. Mob HP of course does continue to rise.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#ffffff>The only bright spot had been large group fights where AE attacks made a big difference, but wizards AE took a serious nerf yesterday.<SPAN> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ffffff size=3>That being said this discussion probably doesn’t belong here because the problem does not seem to be assassins or scouts in general doing too much damage but wizards doing far too little.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#ffffcc>To be honest it doenst bother me at all.<SPAN> </SPAN>You chose the class so your kinda either going to have to live with it or reroll.<SPAN> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ffffff size=3>Ah yes, that’s the solution to balance problems, ignore them until they affect you.<SPAN> </SPAN>I’ll remember that when scouts complain they don’t do any more damage at level 100 then they did at level 80.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#ffffff>A problem for one class is a problem for everyone in the long run because it means there is no diversity in that game any people will get bored of seeing nothing but monks and healers and move on to games where there are viable class alternatives available.</FONT></FONT></FONT></P></DIV>

Aftermath_336

01-09-2005, 02:16 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <P><FONT size=2><FONT color=#0066ff>At level 30 and above wizards are logging their damage and are routinely seeing assassins doing 2 times as much damage per encounter even though they are even though the wizard is burning far more power.<SPAN> </SPAN>For that matter several of the fighter classes (monks and paladins) are out damaging us on a consistent basis at these levels.<SPAN> </SPAN></FONT><BR></FONT></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT size=2></FONT></P> <DIV><FONT size=2>I think I still have the parse from the fight I mentioned in my earlier post, but either way I wrote down the numbers before when I was checking. I averaged 33 dps, the wizard 39dps and the brawler averaged 32 but peaked in some fights as high as 48 when he burnt for agro. So I'd routinely call BS on that post based on the figures I can see with my own eyes.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Additionally, assassins don't have a magic bank of melee attacks, we use power too. When ours runs out, we can't do anything but swing 2 weapons and watch the little number 10s and 12s go up the screen. And let's not be forgetting that we have to use power just to get into stealth before we even launch a decent attack, so you could argue that we have to use 2 attacks for your 1. It's apples and oranges, you can't make sweeping comparisons like you are here.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT color=#0066cc>This really starts to hit in the 30’s because the replacement for the level 23 ball of fire, (our primary nuke) doesn’t do any more damage then the spell it replaces until about level 40 and there are no other damage spells of note during that time.<SPAN> </SPAN>This means wizards go nearly 10 levels in the 30’s without doing any additional damage and then merely start up where they left off in the low 30’s. In fact in some cases damage output drops due to resists. Mob HP of course does continue to rise</FONT>.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT size=2>Level 24 Assassin's Blade. Level 38 Comdemning Blade. Same problem, same level range. You haven't brought anything new to the table with this problem, we have it aswell.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV><FONT color=#0066ff size=2>That being said this discussion probably doesn’t belong here because the problem does not seem to be assassins or scouts in general doing too much damage but wizards doing far too little.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT size=2>Again, the wizard I was with out-damaged me, so I can't see how you can do too little, but then you know your class better than I do so I'll respect your opinion. Of course, assassins would like to do more damage too. :smileywink:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV><FONT color=#0066ff size=2>Ah yes, that’s the solution to balance problems, ignore them until they affect you.<SPAN> </SPAN>I’ll remember that when scouts complain they don’t do any more damage at level 100 then they did at level 80.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT size=2>What's the solution then? Post an inflammatory thread on another class's board containing hypothesis and opinion that contradicts factual evidence and then continue to argue the point? I think not. If you have an issue, raise it with Sony and bring facts to them. It was done plenty of times in EQ Live and the only times it caused any issues was when it was raised in a direct comparison to other classes and came across as class envy. Post parses of fights, explain your situation, tell them what you'd like to see done about it - basically the opposite of what's starting to kick off here. I don't know of any assassin who would object to wizards having 'xyz' or being able to do '123' better. That makes for a better group. But if you don't vote with your feet, or your hands, or your keyboard, then Sony will obviously presume that the issue either doesn't really exist or that it actually doesn't bother you enough to do anything about it.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff size=2></FONT> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV><FONT color=#0066cc size=2>A problem for one class is a problem for everyone in the long run because it means there is no diversity in that game any people will get bored of seeing nothing but monks and healers and move on to games where there are viable class alternatives available.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT size=2>Absolutely true, which is why nobody here is flaming wizards or telling them to go take a jump etc etc. Everyone would like all classes to be doing 'their thing' happily and effectively, we all have friends who play other classes and guilds that contain probably plenty of all sorts. But, like I said earlier, the very small and insignificant parsing I've done shows me a different situation than the one you describe, and even if I've got the exception to the rule it seems that the only people who can do anything about it are the people you guys aren't talking to. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>My wizard isn't very high, he's only 22, so I'm not going to profess to be an expert or anything more than a noob wizard, but from what I've seen at that level compared to when my assassin was the same, damage is dealt in more consistent amounts with the wizard - instead of 10s and then 100s you end up with more figures in the middle of the range. If those amounts need to be increased in your opinion, go to it, get the devs on the case, I won't complain if my group kills faster and my alt hits harder.</FONT></DIV>

SeTSwi

01-09-2005, 03:17 AM

<DIV>warlock here, The info is off. It's 40+ ranges that assassins overtake the mage nuke classes. This, we credit to the rushed beta and untested high-level spells. Seing as adept 1 Dark Distortion (23rd level spell) does comprable damage to adept 1 Nil Distortion (the 37th level 'upgrade') is a good example. That is just wrong. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Frankly I don't mind that assassin have higher dps per mob. IMO they should have it. What is disconcerning is that nuker's AoE damage is too weak to compare. I've seen figures say that they deal only abou 20 more than assassins. While at first this seems okay, the fact of the matter is, the first target dies in very quickly which lowers the overal AoE dmg. Eventually, the 20dmg extra really doesn't account for the extra mana spent on AoE. That on top of the high mana drain of nuke spells (and loss of complete usefull ness after that-as opposed to being able to hit opponent) in general leads me to believe that assasisn have an edge over nukers. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Assasins assassinate, as in one mob. Nukers nuke, as in BIG explosion. We need to keep it more towards that. </DIV>

Demon Wrai

01-09-2005, 03:20 AM

<DIV>Keep in mind that we also have to do it up close and with specific positioning.</DIV>

SeTSwi

01-09-2005, 05:27 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Demon Wraith wrote:<BR> <DIV>Keep in mind that we also have to do it up close and with specific positioning.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>okay, but seriously that's not very hard with a competent tank. It's not as if you have to re-position every four seconds. I mean seriously, that's a downside, but all classes have downsides. The nukers have no armor no health and no defense. So if nukers overnuke, they will probably die. At the very least scouts can fight and dodge things. Then there are resists, high mana costs, no melee damage, no worthy equipment (everyone has the same exact robe), no weapon (but hey who cares about that as a mage, right?). Oh and Lack of actual use of AoE (not many actual group fights, heavy hate gathering, etc).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Every other class has it's down side, but nukers aren't complaining about all that. They (or I) just want our damage in line with everything in perspective. As I said, I don't mind assassins doing more damage than nukers. Let that be their forte, but at least make AoEs more useful, more damage, etc.</DIV>

SeTSwi

01-09-2005, 05:28 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Respox wrote:<BR> <DIV>you get evac too as a wizard high 30's, our evac used to be better because it was zone wide now it isnt zone wide but 15 min recast...i dont know about other scouts but i would MUCH rather have zone wide evac then faster cast</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Respox on <SPAN class=date_text>01-08-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:52 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> wizard's evac is fairly useless. The radius is small and many times only half of the team get's evac'ed. That means the rest are dead.

Aftermath_336

01-09-2005, 06:15 AM

<DIV>Set, they just did that to our evac aswell, so we're paddling up the same creek as you now bro..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks for the confirmation on the info, figured something had to be wrong as the figures didn't sit anywhere close to those claims in the 30s. I can't comment on the 40s just yet, so it's gonna have to be an ideas-based reply..:smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Assasins assassinate, as in one mob. Nukers nuke, as in BIG explosion. We need to keep it more towards that."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Amen, brother wizard. Couldn't agree more. Your points with regard to the gradual degredation in effectiveness of AE spells is an obvious one, but also one that often gets overlooked too easily. That said, I think we need to keep the two in perspective. In essence, what you're saying (and I totally agree) is that wizards are potent at the start of a sizeable encounter, but lose effectiveness as the fight goes on and eventually concede to the assassin's dps when the last mob or two is left. Surely this is the way it would be with the above though? If you hike AE damage to allow for a more powerful effect on 1 or 2 mobs (which the AE spells are not intended to address), then you run the risk of Sony saying "Nope, wizards too powerful, out with the big bat" and being knocked back down again because your AE spells would own grouped encounters inside out (ahhh rememeber the good old EQ Live AE groups! :smileyhappy: ).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here's an idea.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your AE isn't horrible, yeah? So why not lose a single-target nuke or two and replace them with harder hitting ones but with longer refreshes? You won't need to chain them anyway, as you use AE spells at the start of a fight and therefore can 'save up' a refresh on a big bang at the end. Essentially, what you're doing here is re-shaping your spell dynamics to match the abilities of assassins - high damage, long refresh attacks instead of medium damage, quick refresh ones - but if it makes for a better utilisation of your class and it doesn't throw you out of balance in Sony's eyes, why not put it to them? Or does this solution not work either?</DIV>

Tatali

01-09-2005, 06:31 AM

<blockquote><hr>Victicus7 wrote:<BR><P>I may be able to stay close to an assassin DPS if i have power...once i run out of power...well of course the assassin overtakes me</P><P>the problem is...i should do more dps than an assassin while i have power to burn.</P><P>i can burn my full power bar and hardly come close to an assassin dps...and the assassin keeps chugging where i get left behind</P><BR><hr></blockquote>I guess it didn't cross your mind that scouts use power for their dps too? Base melee dps isn't that impressive. I've heard people go on about Bladeflurry but I suppose those same folks don't realize it drains power per proc. Not sure if it scales with level, but my bladeflurry steals 21 power every time it procs and its average damage is about 21. 1:1 ratio for damage is really pretty bad.Mage classes are most efficent at multi-mob encounters. Scouts are more efficent on single target encounters. They already said that the issue with linked spell timers was a mistake.I haven't looked at wizard spell lists, but are those "big nukes" the ones with the best power to damage ratio? Back in EQLive, many wizards back in the old day would say, "You know, things like Ice Comet that are huge damage is nice and all and its fun to see the big hits, but can we have a line of spells that are lower damage? I don't like sitting around waiting for agro to be built up before I can start to cast. I'd like some smaller damage spells so I can spread out my casting though the fight, using bigger nukes later on when the creature is almost dead. SOE listened and gave them that and most wizards there were fairly happy with the ballance between big nukes and smaller ones that were easier to sustain over a battle.If you're burning off all your power and not comming close to an assassin's damage, then its you who's doing something wrong. Maybe you've still got all app1 spells? Maybe you're using your worst damage ratio nukes? Maybe you aren't starting out with debuffs so your other nukes land harder? (btw, assassins/scouts need to debuff mobs vs their attacks too.) Maybe you're grouped with an enchanter who thinks its his job to mez ever mob in a single encounter and refuses to let you AE? Maybe your tank sucks and can't hold agro meaning you need to cut back?

SeTSwi

01-09-2005, 06:51 AM

<DIV>Though the idea does have merit, aftermath, there are too may problems for it to go off just like that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The first major one is just to fix the spells currently available. as I said, upgrade versions of a spell aren't upgrades at all. Many find that the lower level spells (ie Dark distortion) do more damage than the upgrade (Nil Distortion). Though some credit might be given to the fact that with levels, one masters spells, and at higher levels one has yet to master the higher levels, that should not be the case. So what happens to level 50 spells that we can't master? Will the be forever shelfed by level 30 spells just because they do less damage? Even five levels down after geting a new spell, sorcerors still use the older version because it is more powerful or comperable. And seing the tendency of making upgrades on the same timer makes things even worse for casters. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Second problem is the lack of frequency of groups for us to use AEs effectively. Someone did the math and AEs only become effective o groups of four or more. It's just a waste with groups of less than that. And let's be honest, how often do these size groups appear. And of those that appear, when do you fight them except for when they are blue or arrow down? And when you DO fulfill all of these conditions, there are named bosses that go with them, and everyone knows the faster they die the better the group turns out. All of these mean that AEs are not liked by the current mechanics of EQII. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Third many assassins fail to realize that mage damage becomes what it is when one debuffs. I haven't met may assassins, but from what I see, they really don't do that. Just move behind the oponent and keep stabbing. While this isn't that bad, consider that mages must cast debuffs regularly from a fight, which basically removes the casting of another spell. And they do that just to keep their damage in line with the current assassins. And then the debuffs have to be cast on EVERY target in a group for the AoE to be propperly effective. By then the first target might be dead, which means that the nuker didn't help in it, which means the group was inefficient (seing as the first is usually the difficult named)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Finally there is a problem when you similirize the classes like that the big difference becomes too apparent. The cry will now become why do nukers get good AoE AND good single nuke. By seperating the actuall specialization of Nuke vs assassinate, then no one will really have much to argue. And as of now the AoE REALLY doesn't justify the overal increase in dps. </DIV>

SeTSwi

01-09-2005, 06:55 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> If you're burning off all your power and not comming close to an assassin's damage, then its you who's doing something wrong. Maybe you've still got all app1 spells? Maybe you're using your worst damage ratio nukes? Maybe you aren't starting out with debuffs so your other nukes land harder? (btw, assassins/scouts need to debuff mobs vs their attacks too.) Maybe you're grouped with an enchanter who thinks its his job to mez ever mob in a single encounter and refuses to let you AE? Maybe your tank sucks and can't hold agro meaning you need to cut back?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>No, I've grouped with lots of other classes, assassins, and ragers included. Even groups where there were 3 mages and other classes. In all instances, nukers finished the fight at double the loss of power as the others, if not more (I did not count the power received/used when they use painful meditation and other mana-regen abilites). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And an enchanter's job IS to mez every mob in an encounter. I don't see your point.</DIV>

Kulpr

01-09-2005, 07:05 AM

I play a bruiser a wizard and a assassin all are in their 20's. I can do awesome DPS with each of them. I woulnd't consider any of these classes to be gimped but if 1 did need a bit of a boost it would be the wizard. It's all in how well you can play your class cause if you are playing any of these you should be doing good dps and should not be complaining.If you don't believe me roll up another class. If your dps is still low then you just need more practice playing.

SeTSwi

01-09-2005, 07:07 AM

<DIV>twenties and early thirties has the most shine for nukers. Wait until you reach forties. Still relatively high, but not much higher than thirties</DIV>

Calixt

01-09-2005, 12:49 PM

<blockquote><hr>SeTSwiPe wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Respox wrote:<BR><DIV>you get evac too as a wizard high 30's, our evac used to be better because it was zone wide now it isnt zone wide but 15 min recast...i dont know about other scouts but i would MUCH rather have zone wide evac then faster cast</DIV><P>Message Edited by Respox on <SPAN class=date_text>01-08-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:52 AM</SPAN><BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>wizard's evac is fairly useless. The radius is small and many times only half of the team get's evac'ed. That means the rest are dead.<hr></blockquote>Same for scouts at the moment, there are many reports of parties getting left as the "sacrificial lamb". From the silence, it's assumed it's "working as intended", but lets hope they extend both our radii a bit more.

Victicu

01-10-2005, 12:43 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> Tataline wrote:<BR><BR><BR>If you're burning off all your power and not comming close to an assassin's damage, then its you who's doing something wrong. Maybe you've still got all app1 spells? Maybe you're using your worst damage ratio nukes? Maybe you aren't starting out with debuffs so your other nukes land harder? (btw, assassins/scouts need to debuff mobs vs their attacks too.) Maybe you're grouped with an enchanter who thinks its his job to mez ever mob in a single encounter and refuses to let you AE? Maybe your tank sucks and can't hold agro meaning you need to cut back?<BR> <HR> </P> <P>its clear you've never grouped with a 40+ wizard</P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

Demon Wrai

01-10-2005, 01:05 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SeTSwiPe wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Demon Wraith wrote:<BR> <DIV>Keep in mind that we also have to do it up close and with specific positioning.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>okay, but seriously that's not very hard with a competent tank. It's not as if you have to re-position every four seconds. I mean seriously, that's a downside, but all classes have downsides. The nukers have no armor no health and no defense. So if nukers overnuke, they will probably die. At the very least scouts can fight and dodge things. Then there are resists, high mana costs, no melee damage, no worthy equipment (everyone has the same exact robe), no weapon (but hey who cares about that as a mage, right?). Oh and Lack of actual use of AoE (not many actual group fights, heavy hate gathering, etc).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Every other class has it's down side, but nukers aren't complaining about all that. They (or I) just want our damage in line with everything in perspective. As I said, I don't mind assassins doing more damage than nukers. Let that be their forte, but at least make AoEs more useful, more damage, etc.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>What if you don't even have a tank? What if it's solo? At my current level I have to use HOs to solo blues. I see wizards solo'ing yellow/oranges without HOs.</DIV>

SeTSwi

01-10-2005, 08:29 AM

<DIV>First, the game isn't meant for solo. I could argue that further but that's pointless and I'm willing to give up the argument to continue on. Second, why cant' you solo blue mobs unless they have arrows. That's a different matter. I just started an assassin myself and have not real difficulties with whites. Third it depends what level you are, doesn't it. The argument has been about 40+nukers being gimped as well as the spells not being up to par. if your'e mid twenties or early thirties, that's a diferent argument. And for the record, most mages dont' to HOs because it's worse than our spells. On the other hand, your class GREATLY benefits. </DIV>

syniste

01-10-2005, 10:26 PM

Well, to get right down to it, I haven't met a tank, wizard, or anything else at my level that can out-DPS me. At level 33, I do decent DPS with just my 3 BOW skills, let alone my melee attacks and poison. I can have a buffed AGI of well over 200 with a max so far of 252 or so. My power pool, with that AGI, is in excess of 2000 (about 1430 unbuffed).My point? There are people who are well-geared and squeeze every ouce of DPS out of their abilities and their level... and there are those who don't. Before you parse a fight for comparison, know who you're parsing... look at their gear... their power pool in relation to yours... etc... POWER IS YOUR MOST IMPORTANT STAT IF YOU ARE A DPS CLASS, by the way. If you are unhappy with your DPS, look for ways to increase your power, or drink expensive drinks so that you can maintain an onslaught of high-power DPS. One thing scouts in general benefit from is the seemingly abundant AGI buffs out there. I almost always have the highest power in a group in my level range.If you take a well equipped, high-power assassin of any level (who uses their bow skills like they're supposed to)... they have the means to out-DPS any other class of their level, especially if the person playing that class hasn't spent the time/effort to upgrade gear. Does this make them better? Maybe... but it's expensive. Poison... Arrows... It adds up. I go through about 1 stack of arrows every 20 min while grouping. And I pay about 1s PER ARROW... other times i cheap out and buy 19c per arrow, but it depends on the group and the destination. When I run out, my DPS drops by about 1/3. So, I guess it depends on how you look at it. Expensive bags to hold all of your ammo? Etc...

01-10-2005, 11:49 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> HuntressSWG wrote:<BR> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>30's Wizards are ok. That right we are just ok. Wait till you hit 40's where assassian are doing 130dps and wizards are still doing 80-90dps. Oh and assassian how does it make you feel that Monks do 120dps+ and tank very very well? Par none monks/bruisers are the best classes in the game post 40's <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To be honest it doenst bother me at all. You chose the class so your kinda either going to have to live with it or reroll. Sony can swing the nerf bat on its own well enough it doenst need hints from us. You may not do as much DPS but for you that is good... Numerous times I have seen a tank lose agro due to lack of taunting (not your DPS hate generating) and watch you take it on the chin and die giving my team debt. We have greater DPS and are right on the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] end of the traget and can generate enough hate that the medium armor is justified. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>So your thought is that you deserve better armour because you do better damage? And yout think that's right?<BR>

01-10-2005, 11:59 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aftermath_336 wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*snip*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your AE isn't horrible, yeah? So why not lose a single-target nuke or two and replace them with harder hitting ones but with longer refreshes? You won't need to chain them anyway, as you use AE spells at the start of a fight and therefore can 'save up' a refresh on a big bang at the end. Essentially, what you're doing here is re-shaping your spell dynamics to match the abilities of assassins - high damage, long refresh attacks instead of medium damage, quick refresh ones - but if it makes for a better utilisation of your class and it doesn't throw you out of balance in Sony's eyes, why not put it to them? Or does this solution not work either?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>AE was severely gimped for a couple days but it's back right now to only half-gimped. AE is problematic as other posters have mentioned. It's nice eye candy, but AE doesn't take any particular mob down fast. That means that more mobs are hitting long and healing some of their damage -- this mitigates AE's effectiveness. </P> <P>As to the problem with longer refresh rates on our spells: Part of the problem post 40 (so I read) is that all other classes get upgraded weapons and poisons. An assassin's 'spells' aren't too far out of line from a wizard's. The problem is that your melee with some uber-weapon and tier 4 poison adds up to a lot of damage. In contrasts wizards still only have their nukes. We don't have time for melee -- as if it would do any good or if a stray hit from the mob wouldn't kill us. <BR></P>

khalysta

01-11-2005, 01:58 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mjw wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aftermath_336 wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*snip*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your AE isn't horrible, yeah? So why not lose a single-target nuke or two and replace them with harder hitting ones but with longer refreshes? You won't need to chain them anyway, as you use AE spells at the start of a fight and therefore can 'save up' a refresh on a big bang at the end. Essentially, what you're doing here is re-shaping your spell dynamics to match the abilities of assassins - high damage, long refresh attacks instead of medium damage, quick refresh ones - but if it makes for a better utilisation of your class and it doesn't throw you out of balance in Sony's eyes, why not put it to them? Or does this solution not work either?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>AE was severely gimped for a couple days but it's back right now to only half-gimped. AE is problematic as other posters have mentioned. It's nice eye candy, but AE doesn't take any particular mob down fast. That means that more mobs are hitting long and healing some of their damage -- this mitigates AE's effectiveness. </P> <P>As to the problem with longer refresh rates on our spells: Part of the problem post 40 (so I read) is that all other classes get upgraded weapons and poisons. An assassin's 'spells' aren't too far out of line from a wizard's. The problem is that your melee with some uber-weapon and tier 4 poison adds up to a lot of damage. In contrasts wizards still only have their nukes. We don't have time for melee -- as if it would do any good or if a stray hit from the mob wouldn't kill us. <BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Tier 5 poisons dont work in the 40+ realm and the tier 4 poisons would get resisted. I am only 35 since I spend a ton of time doing artisan things and working on my site but every 40+ scout says they skip out on poisons so I will take their word on that unless you can show me logs of a 50 scout doing tons of damage with the tier 5 poisons.</P> <P>I've seen the weapon analogy in every mmoprg I play now. This is a choice you make as a player. Melee get weapons while casters can choose to equip any one of various items to get the stats or effects they want. Granted there are no focus effects for wizards currently but for an assassin we need to worry about power pool, weapons, strength and the combat art upgrades. From a balancing point of view like they would do with EQLive and im not sure how they do it in eq2 but they expect classes to have certain items/weapons/effects. So the uber wizard is supposed to say do X damage and have all adept3 or higher spells. The assassin is supposed to do Y damage but at the same time needs to have weapon a and weapon b plus adept3+ and high strength. So you tell me who has it worse off? In my opinion wizards have it easier. They don't have to quest or camp for difficult to get weapons or worry about secondary stats as well as primary stats. So please already lose the weapon analogy I've seen it in every game even in EQLive where wizards had focus effects they could get to increase damage because this is a choice you make by becoming a wizard just like the scout has to worry about getting the best weapons and top spell upgrades.</P> <P>Also as a note about the weapons lots of parsing and comparison needs done with weapons of varying values. Combat arts don't seem to account much for a weapon gaining damage. I got a polished granite tomahawk over the weekend to replace my feysteel hatchet and every so often I goof off with a weakened ghoulbane. Guess what? All three seem to give the same for combat art numbers. The tomahawk wins for dual wield generic melee damage over the tomahawk but for combat arts which is what we are known for the weapons choice makes minimal increases if any.</P>

01-11-2005, 03:12 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> khalysta wrote:<BR> <P>Tier 5 poisons dont work in the 40+ realm and the tier 4 poisons would get resisted. I am only 35 since I spend a ton of time doing artisan things and working on my site but every 40+ scout says they skip out on poisons so I will take their word on that unless you can show me logs of a 50 scout doing tons of damage with the tier 5 poisons.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>I can only comment on what my fellow wizards have said. They see assassins doing far more dps. I'm not sure how often the poisons proc or which scouts use them or not. Even if most scouts can't get poisons working for them at present, the crafters will eventually level up sufficiently and make this more of an issue. </FONT></P> <P>I've seen the weapon analogy in every mmoprg I play now. This is a choice you make as a player. Melee get weapons while casters can choose to equip any one of various items to get the stats or effects they want. Granted there are no focus effects for wizards currently but for an assassin we need to worry about power pool, weapons, strength and the combat art upgrades. From a balancing point of view like they would do with EQLive and im not sure how they do it in eq2 but they expect classes to have certain items/weapons/effects. So the uber wizard is supposed to say do X damage and have all adept3 or higher spells. The assassin is supposed to do Y damage but at the same time needs to have weapon a and weapon b plus adept3+ and high strength. So you tell me who has it worse off? In my opinion wizards have it easier. They don't have to quest or camp for difficult to get weapons or worry about secondary stats as well as primary stats. So please already lose the weapon analogy I've seen it in every game even in EQLive where wizards had focus effects they could get to increase damage because this is a choice you make by becoming a wizard just like the scout has to worry about getting the best weapons and top spell upgrades.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Yes, it's a choice that we decided to play wizards and I understand that they're not going to do melee damage. I'm not saying that we should. But our casts need to be sufficiently powered to compensate for that. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>As to your comment that we have it easier...well first, who wants easier? Personally, I'd like the option to get all sorts of buffs based on equipment. Essentially, you're saying don't complain because it's easier for you not to have the option to improve your stats/dmg. Sorry, I just don't see that as a bonus. Moreover, have you tried to find a 30+ wizard adept3? There are SO MANY wizards that adept1 spells in the 20s sell for 20+G when they come available -- which is hardly ever. I don't know about your server, but on Oasis, that's far more than most other comparable classes. Therefore, it's much more difficult to acquire the scrolls that we need. Of course, your armour and weapons drop for us all the time!</FONT></P> <P>Also as a note about the weapons lots of parsing and comparison needs done with weapons of varying values. Combat arts don't seem to account much for a weapon gaining damage. I got a polished granite tomahawk over the weekend to replace my feysteel hatchet and every so often I goof off with a weakened ghoulbane. Guess what? All three seem to give the same for combat art numbers. The tomahawk wins for dual wield generic melee damage over the tomahawk but for combat arts which is what we are known for the weapons choice makes minimal increases if any.</P><FONT color=#ff0000>Yeah, us wizards usually have a staff and maybe a wand for every couple of levels. I can't really comment on how various weapons affect your play.</FONT><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

khalysta

01-11-2005, 03:47 AM

<DIV>I am both an assassin and an alchemist. I make my own tier 4 poisons but to market these I would have to charge around a gold for them. Npc poisons sell for a tenth of that for 2 charges. Currently I just don't see player poisons making a huge overall impact. Also keep in mind that no other class has to PAY for one time use damage like the scouts do. Also rangers and assassins need to pay for arrows which get pretty expensive as you level up so that they can be at their peak effectiveness. If you want to get spells that soak up cash and can augment your dps then hey no worries there but keep in mind this damage costs us while a wizard just sits back and nukes with no penalty to the pocket. </DIV>

WhispersEdge

01-11-2005, 04:28 AM

<DIV>If you guys only knew...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wait till you (wizards and assassins) get to 50 and group with a 50 zerker, you will have a whole new appreciation of unbalanced.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I parsed about 3~4 hours of data last night, my guilds 50 berserker not only beat everyone in our group (me-->50 assassin, 50 swash, 50 ranger, 50 wizard, 50 mystic but he doesnt count ;p), but he <STRONG>embarrased</STRONG> us in dps. This is no exaggeration either, if I didnt like the guy so much I would post the numbers...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(I'll leave class nerf threads to other people who will see the same results that I have soon enough...).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>FYI, no my gear is not gimped (tier 5 rare ebon sabre + an even better t5 master chest drop piercer which is sick), the zerk has an electrified bbc. Pretty sure our adept count is similar as well. And yes, we both know how to play our classes~</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Entreri--50 Assassin </DIV> <DIV>Ardent Legion--Mistmoore</DIV>

Tatali

01-11-2005, 07:30 PM

<blockquote><hr>mjw wrote:<FONT color=#ff0000>As to your comment that we have it easier...well first, who wants easier? Personally, I'd like the option to get all sorts of buffs based on equipment. Essentially, you're saying don't complain because it's easier for you not to have the option to improve your stats/dmg. Sorry, I just don't see that as a bonus. Moreover, have you tried to find a 30+ wizard adept3? There are SO MANY wizards that adept1 spells in the 20s sell for 20+G when they come available -- which is hardly ever. I don't know about your server, but on Oasis, that's far more than most other comparable classes. Therefore, it's much more difficult to acquire the scrolls that we need. Of course, your armour and weapons drop for us all the time!</FONT><hr></blockquote>I'm begining to see the problem. You're doing poor dps becuase you're unwilling to invest the time and/or money in getting spell upgrades. That explains a whole lot.No, I've not tried to find 30+ wizards adepts but I have tried to find 30+ assassin adepts and I've been having a huge amount of trouble. I'm getting into a level range where all my main attacks are being upgraded and I'm going to need to stick it out with app 1s and 2s because the app3/4, adept1+ just aren't very common at the moment. Fingerwigglers like to ignore the fact that in EQ2 <I>ALL</i> classes require "spell" upgrades to be effective.You're on Oasis you say...Are you from Qeynos? If so, have you tried sending Powermad or Dillan a tell?Are you from Freeport? Have you checked with Haunta or Ringwurm?Those are the top 4 sages on your server. A sage isn't going to fashion an adept3 and pray it sells. That is the sort of item they're going to make upon request because the demand for those can be sketchy. What if they make "Uber Power Bolt (Adept III)" with their rare item but the next person who comes along wants to buy "KewlDoods Icy Blast". They've blown their component and it may be some time before they get another, if nothing else, they'll need to sell the spell to get their investment back to buy another 1-2 rares.If you want to keep tabs on your server's crafters, http://eq2.strobe.org/So, I think what people are trying to say is quit whining becuase you aren't doing what you can to help yourself. Face it, you're lazy. You're just waiting for everything to fall in your lap. As for the first comment about "other people" and "seeing" assassins doing more damage. What is it they "see", a 1500-2k hit every 5 minutes and saying, 'wow the assassin is doing way more damage tham me!'Are "they" parsing it? You're comming here with no first hand experince and only hearsay and trying to build a boo hoo case that your class sucks? Hah.

01-11-2005, 08:36 PM

<FONT color=#ff0000></FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> <P></P> <P>Tataline wrote:<BR><BR><BR>I'm begining to see the problem. You're doing poor dps becuase you're unwilling to invest the time and/or money in getting spell upgrades. That explains a whole lot.<BR>No, I've not tried to find 30+ wizards adepts but I have tried to find 30+ assassin adepts and I've been having a huge amount of trouble. I'm getting into a level range where all my main attacks are being upgraded and I'm going to need to stick it out with app 1s and 2s because the app3/4, adept1+ just aren't very common at the moment. Fingerwigglers like to ignore the fact that in EQ2 <I>ALL</I> classes require "spell" upgrades to be effective.<BR></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>I'm beginning to see that you have no idea what you're talking about. I actively watch the broker and talk to my guildmates to look out for key spells too. So thanks again for telling me what I'm doing wrong. </FONT></P> <P><BR>You're on Oasis you say...<BR>Are you from Qeynos? If so, have you tried sending Powermad or Dillan a tell?<BR>Are you from Freeport? Have you checked with Haunta or Ringwurm?<BR>Those are the top 4 sages on your server. A sage isn't going to fashion an adept3 and pray it sells. That is the sort of item they're going to make upon request because the demand for those can be sketchy. What if they make "Uber Power Bolt (Adept III)" with their rare item but the next person who comes along wants to buy "KewlDoods Icy Blast". They've blown their component and it may be some time before they get another, if nothing else, they'll need to sell the spell to get their investment back to buy another 1-2 rares.<BR></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Maybe you didn't read my post, there is a huge demand for wiz 30+ adept3 on my server. That was the essential arguement of the entire post. If one goes on sale, it won't be on the broker for long. I've talked to a few sages capable of making the spells. They don't want to make them privately because they can see how desperate people are on broker and get a little more cash. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT><BR>If you want to keep tabs on your server's crafters, http://eq2.strobe.org/<BR><BR>So, I think what people are trying to say is quit whining becuase you aren't doing what you can to help yourself. Face it, you're lazy. You're just waiting for everything to fall in your lap. As for the first comment about "other people" and "seeing" assassins doing more damage. What is it they "see", a 1500-2k hit every 5 minutes and saying, 'wow the assassin is doing way more damage tham me!'<BR>Are "they" parsing it? You're comming here with no first hand experince and only hearsay and trying to build a boo hoo case that your class sucks? Hah.<BR></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Face it, you're a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing idiot and don't have the slightest clue as to what I'm doing or not. I'm not even sure you read my post. I do parse my damage and I do look for spells. The problem is that yes, the assasins almost always out damage me and that I can't get the adept3s. So sit down and get a clue you imbecile. </FONT></P> <P> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

SeTSwi

01-11-2005, 08:38 PM

<DIV>The problem is not spell drops. The problem, as I have stated, is the spells AND the lack of usefullnes of AE. I've already discussed the AE aspect let me get an example of broken spells. Keep in mind, this is only one example (as I can't recall/find any offhand).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Warlock has two level 50 spells for our major damage, Dark Nebula and Devastation. Nebula is the AoE and Devastation is the DD. First of all, Nebula ISN'T AoE. It functions as a DD. Second, Devastation app3 does comprable damage to it's predecesor adept 1. broken spell. Third Devastation and Nebula are on the same timer. Devastation, should be on the same timer as its predecessro as an upgrade. nebula is supposed to be attatced to the same timer as it's predecessor. Instead we have to choose between a AoE that hits only one target and a DD taht does the same damage as it's predecessor, translation, they are the same spell with different graphics.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How is this not broken?</DIV>

UpurBloodst

01-12-2005, 12:55 AM

<P>As a 42 Assassin, I'll have to agree with the berserker comments...</P> <P>Those guys are freakin overpowered. They're arguably the best tanks, and no doubt the best DPS at the high levels. I don't know why they were given heavy armor =/</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

egofalt

01-12-2005, 02:03 AM

<DIV>What most people either forget or choose to ignore is that the assassin's damage comes mainly from back attacks while stealthed. This means that there has to be someone else taking the hits. The assassin has to be both behind his target and can't be taking hits that bring him out of stealth. If any of these things happen then the damage output is gone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wizards do their damage directly.</DIV>

SeTSwi

01-12-2005, 02:29 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> egofalter wrote:<BR> <DIV>What most people either forget or choose to ignore is that the assassin's damage comes mainly from back attacks while stealthed. This means that there has to be someone else taking the hits. The assassin has to be both behind his target and can't be taking hits that bring him out of stealth. If any of these things happen then the damage output is gone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wizards do their damage directly.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>As I said before, that just goes with the turf. Every class has something they jsut have to overcome. Mages have low ac, low health, high hate. wariors have low power, low relatve dmg (supposedly, grrrr zerkers). If anything nukers have it worse. their power doesn't compensate for the low ac, low health, low etc (as evident of nukers constantly complaining about running out of power). And as I said before, we wouldn't mind these problems IF (keyword IF) our damage truly was high dps. it isnt'</FONT></DIV>

khalysta

01-12-2005, 04:18 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SeTSwiPe wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> egofalter wrote:<BR> <DIV>What most people either forget or choose to ignore is that the assassin's damage comes mainly from back attacks while stealthed. This means that there has to be someone else taking the hits. The assassin has to be both behind his target and can't be taking hits that bring him out of stealth. If any of these things happen then the damage output is gone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wizards do their damage directly.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>As I said before, that just goes with the turf. Every class has something they jsut have to overcome. Mages have low ac, low health, high hate. wariors have low power, low relatve dmg (supposedly, grrrr zerkers). If anything nukers have it worse. their power doesn't compensate for the low ac, low health, low etc (as evident of nukers constantly complaining about running out of power). And as I said before, we wouldn't mind these problems IF (keyword IF) our damage truly was high dps. it isnt'</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> I am always running lower than mages especially wizards on power. You guys are the one archetype that can get back power through spells whether its breeze, essence shift or some form of health to power gain. The rest of us have to rely on your buffs for extra power and better foods for extra regen. The one exception to that is the bards but they take a hit to damage for the increased utility.