Scouts vs Wizards

[m]

<DIV>I'm a level 27 Wiz and I realize this is a contentious question, but I'm curious how would you guys compare the dps of scouts and wizards? There are rants and whines on both sides (I've read some of your boards). I'm considering a scout  class (probably assassin) as my main character, but I'd like to have a better idea of how things are balanced. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The first things wizards will note is that we have several AoE spells...honestly I don't care about these. Mob groups generally go down faster if everyone assists the MT. AoE generally just risks me getting aggro and doesn't help anyone. So when we're talking DPS, think single target and this is our main role so it's most important.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The next wizard comment is that you guys have long timers on many of your high damage skills. In level 30+, what sort of damage are you guys outputting? If you can list timer delays, it would be most helpful. Also, how would you compare yourself to wizards that you group with?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Finally is utility.... how useful are you guys? I know some of you think wow wizards have some buffs, root, mez, ect...Personally, I *most* of the buffs boring. I cast them once a day and I'm done with them. Mez is worthless, and I'd probably take your armour over my root. Sure I can root a mob going after the healer for a quick save (which is better than armour), but if my tank isn't good I WILL get aggro and then I can easily end up dead. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So how would you guys compare your class to mine? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[KroviusTu]

<DIV>Actually, scouts have a good number of debuffs...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am often stacking Ebon Blade, Vex, Impale, Cuttthroat, Bleed, and Poisoner's Blade to reduce the mob's defense and add DOTs.  In addition, I chain my stealth moves inflicting about 400+ pts each sequence.  Most of the attack moves recharge about every 15 seconds, so you can imagine how much damage is being delivered.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If all my abilities are charged, it is entirely possible for me to get in about 1000 pts of dmg within the first 5-6 seconds of a fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Of course, Fitz has 100 AGL after self-buffs, and 120+ with group buffs.</DIV><p>Message Edited by KroviusTuri on <span class=date_text>12-22-2004</span> <span class=time_text>10:11 AM</span>

[m]

<DIV>This was a reply to someone talking about one 650 hit assassin attack -- which seems gone now:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can consitently hit for 350 + 3x150  +  ~100/tick (with a few dots) every ~15 seconds.  Your 5 minute single hit isn't nearly enough said. :-p</DIV><p>Message Edited by mjw on <span class=date_text>12-22-2004</span> <span class=time_text>01:18 PM</span>

[KroviusTu]

<DIV>Oh, forgot to add:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've noticed that Bleed at level 25 hits for ~25x2 per tick plus any poison that the scout might have proc'd.</DIV>

[m]

<DIV>So at lvl 25 you're doing about 1000dmg every ~15 sec? Can you maintain that throughout a fight? Also, how much can you burst damage for if you only include the attacks on < 3 minute timers?</DIV>

[KroviusTu]

<DIV>No, only the first sequence since Assassin Blade recharges every 5 minutes.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not at my home computer right now so someone else will have to fill in the exact refresh times.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>About the regular attacks...</DIV> <DIV>melee, 15x2 per 1.4 sec</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I usually start with these:</DIV> <DIV>Assassin Blade, 400-650dmg, 5m refresh</DIV> <DIV>Ebon Blade, 300+ dmg, ~30s refresh</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The following four I execute in order ( I can cycle thru these quickly)</DIV> <DIV>Quick strike (I know many people don't use this at level 20+, but it's an extra 20-40 dmg for very little power) </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Sneak attack, 50dmg </DIV> <DIV>Bleed, 25x2 DOT per tick </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Pierce, ~100 dmg</DIV></DIV></DIV> <DIV>Impale, 100+ dmg</DIV> <DIV>(forget the name, but like Sneak attack and ends in stealth) 50dmg ~15s</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>These are repeatable but must be done in stealth (a number of these cycle quickly, but not all of them)</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Poisoner's Blade, 100dmg</DIV> <DIV>Cuttthroat, 100dmg</DIV> <DIV>Ebon Blade, 300dmg</DIV> <DIV>Ambush, 50-100 dmg</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are a couple of moves I left out, because by the time I ever get to use them, another more useful attack has already recharged.</DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by KroviusTuri on <span class=date_text>12-22-2004</span> <span class=time_text>10:38 AM</span>

[m]

<DIV>Well, it seems like the two classes are about balanced. I think wizards likely have a slight dps advantage on most mobs, but you have the spurt damage and less resists....not to mention medium armour. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In retrospect, a warlock might have a slight edge over us both. I think wizards do a bit more on the DD, but poison has less resists....so anyway back off to playing my wizard. I'll get to 50 and then try a scout. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Dormam]

<DIV>Couple of utility things not mentioned:  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1.  We disarm chests.  Once bugged but now my skill has caught up to my level...very useful.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2.  Evac.  Our number one group saver.  Useful in a number of ways - example: evac is pretty much required doing the Jboots quest.  Also a quick way back to the zone in if you dont want to gate back to town.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3.  Stealth.  Considering the number of "go here and click on that" quests this is a huge class benefit.  I have been able to get in and finish quests my friends cant do in full groups.  By the way, our stealth is superior to the casters invis as far as I can tell.  They move faster (they can run) but ours works better vs higher level mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4.  Poisons.  At level 30 my poisons are starting to do significant damage.  Blight of the evening does like an initial 15 point effect followed by something like four 88 point ticks.  Thats a lot of damage for only a few sp.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>5.  Group run buff.  Pathfinding is great and is on all the time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>6.  Tracking.  When doing quests where you need to find a certain NPC or that single wandering mob its great.  Cuts your quest downtime significantly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Basically, our specials do large amounts of damage while at the same time debuffing the target for either poison, slash or piercing damage.  We get a few AoEs as well to complement the AoE using crowd.  Our self-buffs are AGI only and also have a slight haste ability.  Contrary to popular myth we are pretty good archers as well.  My current positional bow shot with an adept 1 in it can hit for a total of over 400 damage easy and I can use that 2 to 3 times a fight. </DIV>

[Sem]

<DIV>I have been using Khalysta's parser alot lately and in groups my average dps is alot higher than the other classes, including Wizards. This doesn't mean a massive amount since they do not know I am parsing and presumably do not try to do as much damage as they can. That said though I have some logs of damage vs named mobs where everyone is using everything available and with a level 40 Wizard in the group my damage was almost tripple his in the duration of the fight. That particular fight was against Shakey in Rivervale. It has to be said that a group augments us much more than it does a caster, with the proc offensive buffs etc from Bards and Druids going off for alot of damage and quite often.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A couple of things to note, we also have Snare and Root. Our utility is actually probably higher than a Wizards too with Evac (I know Wizards get this too), Pathfinding, Tracking, Disarm, Posions, Stealths and as I already mentioned Root, Stun and Snare (which aren't amazing but worth the effort on occasion).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We debuff our own damage and the defense of the mob and also due to our very high agility can hit things much higher than us which casters struggle with due to resists.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't pretend to be an expert on Wizards and I am sure that there are plenty of Wizards out there with storys on the flip side of the coin. I don't want to start some kind of [Removed for Content] contest about whose class is better either, I have actually started a Wizard myself because I like playing casters too. These are merely my observations based on what I have gathered during my time in EQ2.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Semetta Bloodbath</DIV> <DIV>40 Dark Elf Assassin (Malefic)<BR>Crushbone</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Sem on <SPAN class=date_text>12-23-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:47 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Sem on <span class=date_text>12-23-2004</span> <span class=time_text>11:48 AM</span>

[Lleren]

<DIV>I would expect a fragile finger waggler to have the edge on us for DPS , at least  for as long as the tank can keep aggro.  The Scout archetype classes  have aggro dumping tools , do the Casters get something similar? </DIV>

[Mack]

<DIV>Assassins have the highest dps in game, but you gotta think about that they also have the worst group utilitys in the game so all their really good for is dps (and ofcourse the scout basics as runspeed, evac and open chests).</DIV> <DIV>Wizzys outdmg us on group mobs if they use ae but otherwise assassins is far ahead of anyone dpswise.</DIV>

[UpurBloodst]

<DIV>I had the chance to group with a level 36 wizard, while being a level 36 Assassin myself.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Basically, the Wizard rarely even touched my DPS, except for on groups of 4+ mobs where the wizzy AoE'd.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Most single fights had me at about 80-85 DPS, and the Wizard at around 65-70.  Occasionally, the Wizard would jump ahead, and when I had Assassin's blade up he wasn't even close to me.  However, if there were more than 4 mobs, the Wizard usually had a small lead on me most the time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Sem]

<DIV> <DIV>Correct me if I am wrong but the DPS of a Wizard is pretty much constant. Bard and Chanter haste do not affect their DPS and neither do the procs such as Fae Flames and the Bard offensive procs and their are currently no items (such as FBSS) that augment their cast speed either. So regardless of all else, with the two best players behind each class, the best equipment available to each and the best buffs, as the Assassin is already ahead on most fights (even without Assassin's Blade) in DPS this extra puts Assassin's ahead of the pack by quite a distance. I don't know how many of you are using the high tier alchemist crafted poisons but these are insane at the moment too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Again I am merely comparing what I see every time I play (I am parsing constantly trying to find the optimal setup for myself too) I am also enjoying my Wizard because it is something different but hopefully they will give mage classes in EQ2 more items to look forward to closer to the end game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Semetta Bloodbath</DIV> <DIV>41 Dark Elf Assassin (Malefic)</DIV> <DIV>Crushbone</DIV></DIV>

[sorav]

I've done quite a bit of log parsing and at level 30 I did 2900 damage in a span of 55-60 seconds without assassin's blade up and approximately 3900 damage in 55-60 seconds with assassin blade up. That includes the free attack from cloaked barb. Turns out to be about 50-52 dps on average. Now that's not all the time but most of the time. (Mobs tested were yellow and orange con).

[Quietenglishm]

IMO the Assassin class is the better dps, but wizard has something we Assassins don't - What? - The ability to Solo!@29 a Wizard can solo yellow - orange cons with ease, an Assassin on the other hand can barely survive a solo bout against an even con due to our over-reliability on flanking/stealthed attacks & virtually non-existent (bar few) frontal abilitys.I love the Assassin class, high DPS when played right, & a class that requires tact instead of the buttonbashing of other classes. Assassins all the wat <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Sheme 27th Lvl Assassin - Dawnwatchers - Runnyeye Server

[UpurBloodst]

<DIV>Might be doing something wrong then, I have no problem at all soloing yellow cons at 37, and I'm still wearing a lot of grey armor from the armor quests.</DIV>

[Dacari]

<DIV>For sure doing something wrong.  I've been solo-ing yellow con mobs forever (85% into lvl 25 right now) with ease.  W.  I can even solo green ^ solo group mobs with relative ease.</DIV>

[Quietenglishm]

Then tell me what am I doing wrong?I am a 27 Gnome Assassin:All my skills are Apprentice 3 or Adept 1, I have 1200 or so armour Value, using 2x Pristine Forged Carbonite Sabres (8-24 damage/1.6 delay)All applicable buffs on (Blade Flurry/Bleeders Talent/Survival Instincts/Friendly Shadows making overall agility 8<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />& Mordant Goo poison activated.I start fights using either Ebon Blade or Assassins Blade (whichever is applicable) followed by Assassins Mark & then onwards spam the frontal attack Pierce with Vex/Impale/Agonizing Wound & the usual HO (Lucky Break/Vex/Pierce) occasionally stopping combat whilst rooted to perform a second Ebon Blade/Poisoner's Strike.What other tactic would you suggest, im finding it hard against even lvl solo cons, so whats my problem? Enlighten me.Money is scarce for me so I have to make do with what I have until I get more cash to upgrade more, but I see no problem with my tactic, unless i'm overlooking some skill.This is all off memory so spare me any mistakes.

[Micbat]

Several Suggestions, and if you already know them then thats great:1) Equipment most important of course. This can make or brake ya.2) Watch what you fight, some mobs have high resists to melee like pierce.3) Assassin Mark, don't bother with this (Just My Opinion).4) HO's learn to flip to damage HO's. Not that you should rely on this, but I increased the level of mobs I could solo once I learned to flip to damage HO's. Practice on grey mobs till you get the hang of it.5) Always check the Fence (BlackMarket) for scribe upgrades turns out alot of ours drops in [Removed for Content].It's a constant battle to keep everything up to date, you will find many posters here state that they check the Fence in East Freeport on a regular bases. If money is short invest some time into crafting, you can make some decent coin doing that. Leave your toon logged in when go to bed for the night selling on your bullentin board.

[Quietenglishm]

Forgot to mention the Stalk/combatoff/Poisoner's Blade combo in-fight also /smacksheadYup I check the fence everyday, but simply refuse to waste money on natural upgradable skills (ala Shadow Blade/Ebon Blade) in which case I will only go as far as adept 1 until the final upgrade is attained. Other non-uprgaded skills I will strive for the adept 3/Master spells as & when I can afford them. The game isn't very forgiving to adventurers monetary wise.Kinda Noobish I know, but how do I check the mobs resists? I'm mostly grouped & soloing isn't my priority but, alas soloing is inevitable at some points.As above HO are performed, once for Swindlers Luck, & flipped for DD therafter, but most of the time Vex/Pierce produces DD, only every other does it produce Swindlers.I think my let down is my armour, with market prices rediculously high (what I wouldn't do to have the beta market) it's incredibly hard for me to get the extra jewelry to boost my Armour/Agility &/or other stats resistances. Due to the fact that I don't tradeskill (/em Snore) & get money purely by trading loot, quests.Imho my battle tactic is sound, & of no concern in groups, because i'm still the heaviest damage dealer, it's just solo thats letting me down, & making me feel incredibly gimped.Thanks for info

[Micbat]

As you well know, we are truely meant to deal damage from the mobs backside. We get very few utilities for frontal attacks. Most other classes can solo much more effieciently then we can, but it can be done, maybe not without spending some precious coin though. I posted about this not to long ago and got the same kind of response, and ended up spending serious coin to get to soloing yellows. It sucks I know, very disappointing.Anyway back to the topic:Wizards > ScoutsAssassin > WizardsJust kidding play what you like they do different things for different groups, comparable dps's. I played (scared to say this here) Nightshade in DAoC so an assassin was appealing to me.

[m]

<DIV>Going back to the topic of solo-ing, how difficult is it for most of you? There seems to be some argument in this post. I had always assumed it would be easier with your medium armour and better melee. Our roots are rather weak and soloing is a craps shoot on how roots and stuns work out. Someone mentioned it's difficult for Assasins bc of the positional attacks. Can you guys still pull them off solo, or if not, can you still do decent damage?</DIV>

[Drua]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mjw wrote:<BR> <DIV>Going back to the topic of solo-ing, how difficult is it for most of you? There seems to be some argument in this post. I had always assumed it would be easier with your medium armour and better melee. Our roots are rather weak and soloing is a craps shoot on how roots and stuns work out. Someone mentioned it's difficult for Assasins bc of the positional attacks. Can you guys still pull them off solo, or if not, can you still do decent damage?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Yeah we can solo, but if the mob(s) resist the right attacks it makes life tricky. Also gotta watch what we attack with which weapons eg skellies have high resists to piercing weapons.

[UpurBloodst]

<DIV>The soloing abilities of Assassins in EQ2 seems so far off from the definition of what an Assassin does.</DIV>

[Dacari]

<DIV>Here's what I do against Dragoon Sentries that are yellow con to me (the are skels so they are resistant to pierce a bit)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First off you have to have your Blade Furry and Poison up.  Make sure to have your slowest weapon be 1.4 at the slowest.  I see so many scout with 2.0s weapons and that simply blows my mind.  We want 50+ point swipes from Blade Furry to go off as many times as possible and poison procs, thus we want to be throwing as many attacks as possible.  As for poisons make sure you have the one that deals large DD and small DoT.  That way with the frequent hitting you are doing, you take advantage for the large DD.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ebon Blade (or Assassin's Blade if up) Luck, Vex, Impale, Pierce, Bleed, (with an Evade if the HO pops anything but Ringing Blade).  Luck, Cheap, Stalk, Poison, Pierce, Luck, Vex, Quick Strike (yes still use this because it isn't tied in with any timer and it can kick off an HO in case you miss with your 'real' attacks.  Also the reason to use it here is that Pierce/Impale  hasn't cycled for another 1-2s).  Impale, Pierce.  Should be dead, if it isn't it's because you didn't or were not able to switch off swindlers luck or Bravo's Dance.  The only HO for a solo to use is the DD Ringing Blade.  If you are missing yellow con mobs then something else is entirely wrong.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh, and all my jewelry is grey except the Pox Ring or something like that.  Get the DD poison and fast weapons.</DIV>

[tricksyO]

Just on soloingMake sure you have a HO window set up and watch for the Ringing Blow opertunity, thats another chance to flank in solo battle for free. Get off a shrouded strike + poisoners blade/cutthroat/assassinsblade as those attacks don't have to be flanked, just stealthed.Also I tend not to open with assassins blade if its up. Instead as all thats needed is stealth I save it for extra dmg before bleed attacks.open with Ebon blade > dizzy > cut combat + re-stealth Assassins Blade. Thats alot of dmg very quickly in solo and can make a lot of difference to the battle. Apply bleed and get in poisoners blade if you can and you can pretty much just auto attack harder cons while the tick finishes them off.OT: I'd be tempted to go with saying wizards and warlocks out dmg us, but thats mainly due to the fact that I don't want our skills nerfed <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[tricksyO]

Also upgrade your ranged skills. People seem to not realise how good these are. With pristine ash longbow and good arrows....1)Backshot to open stationary cast so you have to. = 200 - 300 dmg2)Back up a bit then use Headshot, another 15-250 dmg3)Caltrops at max range then run back a little more and use openshot.I'm not exagerating, with this kind of tactic a yellow con will be at less than 50% and you're not risking much.My brother Erus and I set up a boomerange tactic. Pulling agro off each other with ranged attacks we kill off 2 members of a mob before they actually even reach us. Who ever has agro last tanks and debuffs the enemy the other comes in behind and finishes them off with blades.Assassin is the best class for a thinking player IMO <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />