Curious about 2 assassins in group

[joeyfishcakes]

<DIV>I recently decided to play an assassin, and basically I am loving it. I have actually switched my main. However, one thing troubles me. My guild has about 3 assassins in it. Now I cant say I have ever hunted with another assassin, but how is it going to work with raiding if we cant use assassin blade / ebon blade? Anyone know from beta (or even now) if our upgrades to these will stack. I cant help but think we would be screwed from raiding since only one would be needed. Not a rant here, im an assassin newbie and kinda wondering about it. </DIV>

[khalysta]

<DIV>Assassin's blade is fine since it doesnt have a debuff.  It's just every other move has a debuff to it.  Our big damage actually comes from the other moves too like insidious cut and poisoners blade both of which have debuffs.  Even the pierce upgrade which is cut gets a dot portion so it also has issues.  I think its kinda funny how the summoners complain they can't dot and are forced to nuke in a group yet the post 20 predator can't dot or nuke but its ok since its just a debuff. /boggle.  Anyways hopefully this system gets overhauled since so many of the popular classes have stacking issues and honestly I would be more than happy to just dump the debuffs for now until they can get this all worked out.  </DIV>

[Mack]

<DIV>Two of same subclass in a group is bad, doesnt really mather what class actually. If its healers you get half the buffs, if its scouts you get half the dmg and if its mages its the same there.</DIV>

[Salat]

<DIV>Having two of the same subclass in a group isn't the best thing.  However, if you cant find another class and have to have two of one type,  I would say go with two DPS types.  Two Healers types aren't bad, extra healing helps, but I would rather have the extra damage.  And I never understood why any group should have 2 tank types.  Ones holding aggro, and the other is doing minimal damage, where even another of the same subclass DPS, does more.  But depending on how big your guild is, I wouldnt worry about having 3 assassins in it.</DIV>

[AstralDrea]

<DIV>you are kidding, right? My FG group the other day had 3 assassin's and we were doing fantastic. Our group consisted of 1 necro, 1 fury, 3 assassins, 1 berserker. Since the fury and berserker were both 22-23, they help up just fine, even against orange double up wretches.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I quite often group with two assassins and have never seen any issues.</DIV>

[Veiov]

<DIV>Yea, I feel the same as Asral... The only spells that cant be used by 2 assassins at the same time are Impale, dirty tricks and bleed...and dirty tricks does no dmg and the debuf is basicaly unnoticeable at lvl 21 so no big loss and considering the high dps with our backstab  abilities  2 assassins an 1 group is a bonus <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  this summary might be biased a little but its true lol scouts rule!!!</DIV>

[khalysta]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Veiovis wrote:<BR> <DIV>Yea, I feel the same as Asral... The only spells that cant be used by 2 assassins at the same time are Impale, dirty tricks and bleed...and dirty tricks does no dmg and the debuf is basicaly unnoticeable at lvl 21 so no big loss and considering the high dps with our backstab  abilities  2 assassins an 1 group is a bonus <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  this summary might be biased a little but its true lol scouts rule!!!</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Wait a few levels and you will be taking this statement back.  In a few levels this becomes insidious cut, agonizing wound, poisoner's blade, cut, and ebon blade.  Insidious cut - upgrade to impale but a major source of damage.  Agonizing wound - dot and we know those don't stack.  Cut - upgrade to pierce and has a dot component.  Poisoner's blade - upgrade to ambush and a huge source of our dps when combined with shrouded strike but has a poison debuff.  Ebon blade - upgrade to shadow blade and has a debuff.  So as you can see almost all of your favorite damage attacks have a debuff on them.  </P> <P>The 10-19 arts stack ok but when people are talking here they are talking in the 30+ realm when you have replaced all your old predator skills.  At 20 you just became an assassin but it isnt until around level 30 that you learn the depth of our stacking issues.  Just because you have the assassin title though doesnt mean you should try and discredit those who are a bit higher level and have far more assassin skills.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by khalysta on <span class=date_text>12-14-2004</span> <span class=time_text>04:21 PM</span>

[AstralDrea]

<DIV>Even though all those skills you mention have a debuff/bleed component to them and won't stack, two assassins in a party even discounting the stacking/debuffing issue will still dish out an incredible amount of damage. Doing those skills is not only done for the debuff part. I daresay you do the debuff (like impale) abilities more than one in a round against a tough mob more for the damage as opposed to just the debuff.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With two assassins, spamming dirty tricks/vex type abilities won't help, so talking and having only one assassin doing it will work fine. My original point remains the same, 2 assassins in a group works really well in terms of DPS and I doubt can be discounted because of stacking issues.  What you are creating is an urban myth that will prevent two assassins from ever being in higher level groups. I doubt it is productive to the class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Although the groups i've been in have only been lvl 20-25, i find it hard to believe that this stacking point is such a huge issue later on. Most of the damage I see coming from an assassin in front-loaded damage not from bleeds or being dependant on a debuff. Have you even measured the impact of a debuff in terms of DPS for an assassin? I have Master I Impale and though I see a huge bonus in terms of damage, I've done fights using impale and not using Impale, and have seen a major improvement in terms of damage done using abilities. And yes, I am using piercing weapons...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I suggest more conclusive data before jumping to that "no two assassins in a party' conclusion.</DIV>

[SaidenSto]

<DIV>I think what alot of of people are missing especiallyl you in the lower levels is that any two fo one class cant stack or at least overwrite eachother and later in life, its especailly true for assassin's is that almost 99% of our attack ALL have some sort of debuff or dot aspect that WILL NOT STACK with any other assassin doing those skills so you basially hae one assassin doing skill and another not able to because every skill will say cannot use because this creature already has that effect....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2 Assassin's are not good in any high level 35+ group and most people will avoid that becuase it will seriously lower over all dmg output and by that level any lowering of dmg output is not tolerated when mobs are hitting your tanks for 1k+ dmg it takes 2 healers to keep them alive just for a few seconds and you lower the dmg your group is doing = dead tank = evac = waste of time........</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>These non stacking issues need to be fixed..</DIV>

[Garath]

<blockquote><hr>AstralDreams wrote:<DIV>Even though all those skills you mention have a debuff/bleed component to them and won't stack, two assassins in a party even discounting the stacking/debuffing issue will still dish out an incredible amount of damage. Doing those skills is not only done for the debuff part. I daresay you do the debuff (like impale) abilities more than one in a round against a tough mob more for the damage as opposed to just the debuff.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>With two assassins, spamming dirty tricks/vex type abilities won't help, so talking and having only one assassin doing it will work fine. My original point remains the same, 2 assassins in a group works really well in terms of DPS and I doubt can be discounted because of stacking issues. What you are creating is an urban myth that will prevent two assassins from ever being in higher level groups. I doubt it is productive to the class.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Although the groups i've been in have only been lvl 20-25, i find it hard to believe that this stacking point is such a huge issue later on. Most of the damage I see coming from an assassin in front-loaded damage not from bleeds or being dependant on a debuff. Have you even measured the impact of a debuff in terms of DPS for an assassin? I have Master I Impale and though I see a huge bonus in terms of damage, I've done fights using impale and not using Impale, and have seen a major improvement in terms of damage done using abilities. And yes, I am using piercing weapons...</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I suggest more conclusive data before jumping to that "no two assassins in a party' conclusion.</DIV><hr></blockquote>Wow..Ok, let me repeat EXACTLY what has already been said in direct rebuttle. Though I'm sure we won't be able to convince you.. you'll find out for yourself post level 24.Look at the skill list of an Assassin. Now name me our ways of doing damage that we use AFTER LEVEL 24 that do NOT have a debuff attached to them. By 30 there's only a couple skills that you'll be using that stack.I'll help:Shrouded strike (good.. every 10 seconds - ~150 damage)Assassin's blade (every 5 minutes)Regular melee attack (poke poke 10-20 damage)You CANNOT stack poisioner's blade, ebon blade, insidious cut (that may be like 26 or something, I don't recall - either way its the upgrade of impale that already has a debuff), bleed/antagonizing wound.I have another assassin in my guild and can attest to this first hand.. well HAD. He rerolled to a healer because it was very frustrating grouping together as two assassins.What you don't seem to understand here is its not that the debuff won't stick. Its that you CANNOT USE THE ABILITY AT ALL. I used CAPS to emphasize the point. If one assassin uses Ebon blade, the other assassin will NOT be able to use the skill AT ALL. You get the message WILL NOT TAKE EFFECT. No damage is done.

[Dormam]

<DIV>"Even though all those skills you mention have a debuff/bleed component to them and won't stack, two assassins in a party even discounting the stacking/debuffing issue will still dish out an incredible amount of damage."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Totally false statement.  You dont seem to understand that the source of an assassins incredible damage is the skills that he uses.  Take those away and he is no more than an effective dot on the mob doing 10, 10, 8, 9, 12, etc etc. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"What you are creating is an urban myth that will prevent two assassins from ever being in higher level groups. I doubt it is productive to the class."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its not an urban myth.  Its from assassins higher level than you telling you from experience what happens.  Also, its been my experience that 2 of any sub-class in a group is redundant.  This game rewards diversity and it shows in group makeups.  Example:  assassin/dirge is a much better combo choice than assassin/assassin.</DIV>

[Xelt]

<DIV>I just want to go ahead and agree with everyone saying that two of the same subclass is useless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In fact, two of the same class is useless.  I'm an 18th level predator (just completed assassin quest, have to level up now) and for several levels I've been severely frustrated when any other predator has been in my group, especially if that predator is the higher level one, because then practically none of my abilities work (and keep in mind, I'm still low level, think what it will be like later on).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd almost go as far as to say two scouts in a group is useless, but I have managed to group with one or two other scout types that I have found to be useful members.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Xelten on <span class=date_text>12-16-2004</span> <span class=time_text>08:50 PM</span>

[AstralDrea]

<DIV>ok, got the flame already twice over. I did not realize the points made before until you all so strongly emphasized it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i did NOT know that you can't even use an ability if another assassin has executed it. if that is the case, it seriously sucks. and i did not realize that assassins damage is done in terms of bleed-type DOTs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so the urban myth is alive and well, and working as intended? If this is how the game is designed, doesn't this seriously mess up having multiple assassin's in a raid encounter? Does this mean that higher levels assassins have a very hard time finding a group?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is a new game and we are all learning it, i was just providing my observation, which i made it clear was based on my level. And at my level groups i have been in did fine with two assassins, that's it. I have no idea what happens at higher level groups.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EDIT: had to respond to this one:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"I'll help:<BR><BR>Shrouded strike (good.. every 10 seconds - ~150 damage)<BR>Assassin's blade (every 5 minutes)<BR>Regular melee attack (poke poke 10-20 damage)"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-- Aren't you forgeting the 100-120 I am doing with Impale, the 150-175 I do with Backshot, the 80-100 I do with cut throat and the 150-250 from shadow blade, do you you never use shadow blade after lvl 25 (ebon replaces)... Sorry, I'm sure like you say poisoner's blade and other non-stacking represent so much damage that eliminates the value of these other attacks... you slightly exaggerated...</DIV> <P>One more EDIT: <P>"What you don't seem to understand here is its not that the debuff won't stick. Its that you CANNOT USE THE ABILITY AT ALL. I used CAPS to emphasize the point. If one assassin uses Ebon blade, the other assassin will NOT be able to use the skill AT ALL. You get the message WILL NOT TAKE EFFECT. No damage is done." <P>-- Question, what does shadow blade adept I do in terms of damage compared to ebon blade at lvl 25-30? just curious... so if you were a second assassin and you couldn't use ebon blade, what could you do with SB... <P> </P><p>Message Edited by AstralDreams on <span class=date_text>12-15-2004</span> <span class=time_text>02:04 PM</span>

[Dormam]

<DIV> <DIV>"so the urban myth is alive and well, and working as intended? If this is how the game is designed, doesn't this seriously mess up having multiple assassin's in a raid encounter? Does this mean that higher levels assassins have a very hard time finding a group?"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Multiple assassins in a raid encounter would be fine.  Raids are about mulitple groups...1 assassin in some of those groups is fine.  Remember very few raids are about killing a single huge mob.  In fact most of the raids I have been on have been more like huge waves of mobs rushing you time after time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a level 28 assassin I usually dont have that much trouble finding a group.  Several times I have put my LFG flag on and gotten invites from other zones asking me to come over.</DIV></DIV>

[AstralDrea]

<DIV>Well that is good to know at least. I've just been in other mmorpg's where certain class simply can't get groups in the high levels. I hate the single boss mob encounter anyways, nothing worse that 70-100 people whacking on one badly rendered monster.</DIV>

[Jan It]

Sorry for being a troll, but with my 4th rare tier 3 resource harvested and quiet above average skill playing ability I know that I´m one of the major damage dealers. I probably don´t do more than 2/3 rd of my max damage because the tank otherwise cannot keep aggro. And I´ve played with other very good scouts that knew to do their job and we did really rock.Never had a skill not work for me except Impale, so currently I´m fine. If at lvl 35 this does change I´ll make sure that I´m the one to be kept, simple as that. I hail any competition that might arouse.

[AstralDrea]

<DIV>In regards to Impale, I've never had impale not work. Now that they've mentioned the error msg, I have seen it on Bleed, but that is it. Impale went off non-stop using it with two other assassins in the party. Maybe they just never used it, dunno. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's seriously lame that they would block u from using an ability, why not just negate the debuff portion of the attack but allow that damage part, assuming it is not a DOT.</DIV>

[Kregdem]

<DIV>This would be my first post to a community message board in since EQ1 came out, but this community has valid information and very beninfical input from fellow assasins of all levels.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First question:  </DIV> <DIV>I have seen the stacking issues with Bleed and Impale but ONLY with a Predetor/Assasin of higher lvl.  If the assasin is the same lvl Impale seems to overwrite it just fine, Bleed still does stack becusae it is dot.  I wanted to know if this can be comfirmed or just luck on my part that Impale was never used at the same time as the other assasin in that group that night.  This is much like if you use Impale at the begining of the fight and then later on during the fight it allows you to do it, but will not allow you to do bleed if it is still dotting the mob.  So in sense if it is a debuff ability it will allow you to use it IF the assasin are the same lvl, so at lvl 50 this issue should be resolved for the debuff stacking issues.... becuase the abilities are GREAT DMG even if thier debuff doesn't stick.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Second Question:</DIV> <DIV>Stacking issues have always been a problem with Sony, they didn't fix stacking issues in EQ 1 for how long?  Ummm something like 3-4 years later.  I just hope that they fix these a lot sooner.  The question is do Tier 1 assasin skills stack with higher Tier skills or are they all the same type?  As it stands it sounds like I will have to set up a diffrent set of hot keys if grouped with another assasin to use non debuff skills to atleast keep what ever DPS I can.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Third Question:</DIV> <DIV>I haven't researched it very much but it was stated the refresh time on some skills can run 5 minutes or more.   Does that effect last 5 minutes or does it were off before the skill refreshes?  If it wears off before the refresh timer comes up the secondary assasin can slip in with his skill to keep the debuff on and also deal some dmg.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[AstralDrea]

<DIV>"If the assasin is the same lvl Impale seems to overwrite it just fine, Bleed still does stack becusae it is dot. "</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That is exactly my experience now that you mention it. The groups I was in, we had 3 assassins, all lvl 20, and I could spam Impale non-stop. That is why I mentioned that I never got that message blocking Impale, I did however on bleed. Or perhaps it is because I have Impale Master I, so it always overwrites other assassins.</DIV>

[Nagora]

<DIV>I think, if you're the same level, Impale stacks because it's the same (hence you can stack it over your own).  Where you run into problems is when you are a lower level and thus your Impale is "inferior".  You'll get the message "Will not take effect" and it won't go off.  </DIV>

[Tatali]

The debuff thing bugs me a lot too... its not even just assassins that have this problem, I think its just about everyone. Any time you've got two of the same class in a group you're going to run into this problem to some degree.I want to play my assassin as my main toon, but if I want to play with my best friend I've got to play my guardian or our skills will [Removed for Content] each other. It would be nice if a mob was already under the influence of a particular debuff, you'd still be able to use your combat art but the debuff portion of it was ignored.<blockquote><hr>Nagorak3 wrote:<DIV>I think, if you're the same level, Impale stacks because it's the same (hence you can stack it over your own). Where you run into problems is when you are a lower level and thus your Impale is "inferior". You'll get the message "Will not take effect" and it won't go off. </DIV><hr></blockquote>Nope. =/My 26th assassin was grouped with a 24th ranger the other night and I couldn't use Impale at all because he'd use it first. I've got adept1 impale, so I doubt he'd have adept3 or master, but I didn't ask.<p>Message Edited by Tataline on <span class=date_text>12-18-2004</span> <span class=time_text>12:24 AM</span>

[Gorhauth]

<blockquote><hr>Garath wrote:Wow..Ok, let me repeat EXACTLY what has already been said in direct rebuttle. Though I'm sure we won't be able to convince you.. you'll find out for yourself post level 24.Look at the skill list of an Assassin. Now name me our ways of doing damage that we use AFTER LEVEL 24 that do NOT have a debuff attached to them. By 30 there's only a couple skills that you'll be using that stack.I'll help:Shrouded strike (good.. every 10 seconds - ~150 damage)Assassin's blade (every 5 minutes)Regular melee attack (poke poke 10-20 damage)You CANNOT stack poisioner's blade, ebon blade, insidious cut (that may be like 26 or something, I don't recall - either way its the upgrade of impale that already has a debuff), bleed/antagonizing wound.I have another assassin in my guild and can attest to this first hand.. well HAD. He rerolled to a healer because it was very frustrating grouping together as two assassins.What you don't seem to understand here is its not that the debuff won't stick. Its that you CANNOT USE THE ABILITY AT ALL. I used CAPS to emphasize the point. If one assassin uses Ebon blade, the other assassin will NOT be able to use the skill AT ALL. You get the message WILL NOT TAKE EFFECT. No damage is done.<hr></blockquote>Personally, I love grouping with other assassins, especially my friends. We don't have any problems in a group because we take the time to divide up who is going to be doing what. After the first fight, we do a quick power check to see if we need to swap for the next pull. It doesn't take a lot of effort to say 'It's your turn to do Poisoner's Blade and Insidious Cut, I'll take the rest.'No, you don't get to spam every one of your specials constantly, but you do get to save power, enjoy your friend's company in the group, and still kick the living stuffing out of baddies.